You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

I really when I see someone with a bun on the top of their head, I go shit, she is so deep.

I really when I see someone with a bun on the top of their head, I go shit, she is so deep.

That's a busy woman.

That's a busy woman.

That is a daddy, a busy woman. She's got to concentrate so much, she's got to pull her hair back from her brain.

That is a daddy, a busy woman. She's got to concentrate so much, she's got to pull her hair back from her brain.

Hello, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out Loud What women are actually talking about? Wednesday, the twelfth of March. I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea.

Hello, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out Loud What women are actually talking about? Wednesday, the twelfth of March. I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea.

Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today there's a celebrity family with seven children, some dubious accent choices, and a wrongful death suit hanging over their heads. So they've opened up their front door and invited us inside. Why also, are your friends' tweakments making you feel bad about your face?

And on the show today there's a celebrity family with seven children, some dubious accent choices, and a wrongful death suit hanging over their heads. So they've opened up their front door and invited us inside. Why also, are your friends' tweakments making you feel bad about your face?

Why?

Why?

Competitive aging is ruining friendships and it's starting young than ever And in a world of constant feedback loops, it's getting harder and harder to be a hell yes, fuck no person. How to get better at trusting your gut? But first, Mia.

Competitive aging is ruining friendships and it's starting young than ever And in a world of constant feedback loops, it's getting harder and harder to be a hell yes, fuck no person. How to get better at trusting your gut? But first, Mia.

In case you missed it, the first girl's trip to space has been announced, and my response is, oh no, I'd hate that. Last week, Blue Origin, the aerospace company founded by Jeff Bezos, announced an all female crew for its eleventh human spaceflight. It's going to happen in a few months time, and this is the exciting bit. The crew stars Jeff Bezos's fiance Lauren Sanchez, Oprah's best friend and TV journalist gau King, and popstar Katie Perry, who posted.

In case you missed it, the first girl's trip to space has been announced, and my response is, oh no, I'd hate that. Last week, Blue Origin, the aerospace company founded by Jeff Bezos, announced an all female crew for its eleventh human spaceflight. It's going to happen in a few months time, and this is the exciting bit. The crew stars Jeff Bezos's fiance Lauren Sanchez, Oprah's best friend and TV journalist gau King, and popstar Katie Perry, who posted.

Sorry, my question is are they flying the spaceship?

Sorry, my question is are they flying the spaceship?

I assume not. No, they're passengers. But Katie Perry posted, if you had told me that I would be part of the first ever all female crew in space, I would have believed you. Gau King, however, is not so thrilled about it. Have a listened to what she had to say.

I assume not. No, they're passengers. But Katie Perry posted, if you had told me that I would be part of the first ever all female crew in space, I would have believed you. Gau King, however, is not so thrilled about it. Have a listened to what she had to say.

I have to tell you.

I have to tell you.

I'm sore.

I'm sore.

Frey stop girl.

Frey stop girl.

Yeah, I'm so afraid, but I'm also so excited about it. When they asked me, and they asked me around Thanksgiving, I was like, no, no, no. Then I started thinking about it. I met with favorite daughter Kirby, favorite son Will Oprah. That's my kitchen cabinet they will all be there that day with their spouses, and I just thought, what a unique opportunity. And then yesterday I met the crew. We're now the crew. We're all in a text chain together, and their stories are so amazing.

Yeah, I'm so afraid, but I'm also so excited about it. When they asked me, and they asked me around Thanksgiving, I was like, no, no, no. Then I started thinking about it. I met with favorite daughter Kirby, favorite son Will Oprah. That's my kitchen cabinet they will all be there that day with their spouses, and I just thought, what a unique opportunity. And then yesterday I met the crew. We're now the crew. We're all in a text chain together, and their stories are so amazing.

It's interesting because it used to be that you needed years of NASA training and the job titled astronaut to be launched into space. But we've entered this age of space tourism. So Blue Origin and Elon Musk, SpaceX and Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic have made going into space and attainable reality well for the rich and a bit of a reality spectacle for the rest of us. And now they're sending these celebrities up there for publicity so that regular degulars with millions of dollars will hear about it and book their tickets. And tickets cost between one million dollars and one hundred and ten million dollars, depending on how long you're up for how high you go. So, Jesse, how do you feel about adding another date to the Out Loud Live tour and getting on a space rocket with me?

It's interesting because it used to be that you needed years of NASA training and the job titled astronaut to be launched into space. But we've entered this age of space tourism. So Blue Origin and Elon Musk, SpaceX and Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic have made going into space and attainable reality well for the rich and a bit of a reality spectacle for the rest of us. And now they're sending these celebrities up there for publicity so that regular degulars with millions of dollars will hear about it and book their tickets. And tickets cost between one million dollars and one hundred and ten million dollars, depending on how long you're up for how high you go. So, Jesse, how do you feel about adding another date to the Out Loud Live tour and getting on a space rocket with me?

And I'm being sponsored by them doing a little show from Space Life Broadcast. I'm so annoyed because I feel like I'm going to get talked into going to space and I don't want to go. I feel as though there's a girl's trip in my future where everyone goes, no, we really want to go to space.

And I'm being sponsored by them doing a little show from Space Life Broadcast. I'm so annoyed because I feel like I'm going to get talked into going to space and I don't want to go. I feel as though there's a girl's trip in my future where everyone goes, no, we really want to go to space.

And it's fun.

And it's fun.

It's a hen's week it's a weekend, and.

It's a hen's week it's a weekend, and.

I'm going to say you have to come. I want to go to Mexico. No, I want to go to the Bahamas, and they're going to say no, Space and there's not a Paul or a cocktail there.

I'm going to say you have to come. I want to go to Mexico. No, I want to go to the Bahamas, and they're going to say no, Space and there's not a Paul or a cocktail there.

I would love to go to space. I would get on that ship. I would throw Katie Perry out of that ship. The wood crew is really freaking me out though, because it does sound like they're flying it. Lauren Sanchez, though, can flyplanes, so she's a helicopter. Helicopter so she doesn't and she's written a children's book about a buzzy bean in space, so she's very well qualified. Lauren could be at the controls. I would love it.

I would love to go to space. I would get on that ship. I would throw Katie Perry out of that ship. The wood crew is really freaking me out though, because it does sound like they're flying it. Lauren Sanchez, though, can flyplanes, so she's a helicopter. Helicopter so she doesn't and she's written a children's book about a buzzy bean in space, so she's very well qualified. Lauren could be at the controls. I would love it.

It's no, okay, it's gonna be the worst girl's weekend because this is what people don't understand. As I talked about last week, I went to space via a book that I read recently orbital so vomiting, painting, headaches, not the I don't think even if it's fancy, I think you're still in space.

It's no, okay, it's gonna be the worst girl's weekend because this is what people don't understand. As I talked about last week, I went to space via a book that I read recently orbital so vomiting, painting, headaches, not the I don't think even if it's fancy, I think you're still in space.

I think Lauren Sanchez's boobs will explode.

I think Lauren Sanchez's boobs will explode.

Oh, Freedman, that's so help.

Oh, Freedman, that's so help.

I think it's a fair question.

I think it's a fair question.

Will help with the floating around. Funny is that when you're taking tourists into space, it can't be too spacey like what you're talking about, because that would be terrible. But they have to get that opportunity to float about, right otherwise you're not going, like I'm not going unless I get to it. Currently, Lauren Sanchez.

Will help with the floating around. Funny is that when you're taking tourists into space, it can't be too spacey like what you're talking about, because that would be terrible. But they have to get that opportunity to float about, right otherwise you're not going, like I'm not going unless I get to it. Currently, Lauren Sanchez.

You've got to do tests for claustrophobia because people often like, can you imagine going up there? I'm incredibly claustrophobic. I don't love a lyft. I am an hour in and I have never been more trapped in my life. I can see someone. I can see Katie Perry, who's pretty confident losing it. She's the one who's going to start hyperventilating and go and get me out, Get me out.

You've got to do tests for claustrophobia because people often like, can you imagine going up there? I'm incredibly claustrophobic. I don't love a lyft. I am an hour in and I have never been more trapped in my life. I can see someone. I can see Katie Perry, who's pretty confident losing it. She's the one who's going to start hyperventilating and go and get me out, Get me out.

I can also see a singing woman's world too. You never again and you're like open.

I can also see a singing woman's world too. You never again and you're like open.

Nothing, tramped on.

Nothing, tramped on.

Now, I'll take my chances with the asteroids.

Now, I'll take my chances with the asteroids.

We moved into this apartment in November of twenty eleven. Her and I no kids, quiet, and then number one came one kid, two kids, No you'll come back. No, no, no, don't do that. Oh Wedd's up. Three kids, four kids, And I thought that was the outer limits.

We moved into this apartment in November of twenty eleven. Her and I no kids, quiet, and then number one came one kid, two kids, No you'll come back. No, no, no, don't do that. Oh Wedd's up. Three kids, four kids, And I thought that was the outer limits.

Become going what is what haves? Though he had no saying how many children they are.

Become going what is what haves? Though he had no saying how many children they are.

It's hilarious, right, So, welcome to a luxurious penthouse apartment in Greenwich Village, New York City. We're a very famous movie star. Just turn him. Alec Baldwin is living with his much younger wife, their seven children, aged between eleven and two, two nannies, many pets, and a manslaughter charge hanging over their heads. Yes, it's feel good reality TV show The Baldwins, all about Aleck and his wife Hilaria, and I watched it so you don't have to hear us some very short life's two short takeaways. The show is apparently filmed in the run up to Baldwin's trial over the twenty twenty one death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. In case you don't remember, Helena died when a gun Baldwin was firing on the set of The Western Rust did not fire the standard blanks but live ammunition. She was the mother to a nine year old son. That case was eventually dismissed, but civil charges are pending. This makes it a tricky tonal needle to thread, right because that trial and the stress of it on the Baldwins is frequently mentioned and counted down to through the first episode.

It's hilarious, right, So, welcome to a luxurious penthouse apartment in Greenwich Village, New York City. We're a very famous movie star. Just turn him. Alec Baldwin is living with his much younger wife, their seven children, aged between eleven and two, two nannies, many pets, and a manslaughter charge hanging over their heads. Yes, it's feel good reality TV show The Baldwins, all about Aleck and his wife Hilaria, and I watched it so you don't have to hear us some very short life's two short takeaways. The show is apparently filmed in the run up to Baldwin's trial over the twenty twenty one death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. In case you don't remember, Helena died when a gun Baldwin was firing on the set of The Western Rust did not fire the standard blanks but live ammunition. She was the mother to a nine year old son. That case was eventually dismissed, but civil charges are pending. This makes it a tricky tonal needle to thread, right because that trial and the stress of it on the Baldwins is frequently mentioned and counted down to through the first episode.

Right, They talk about it all a lot.

Right, They talk about it all a lot.

Yeah, But the other overarching plotline is like this supposedly comedic mayhem of a family where a sixty six year old man is parenting seven children. Right, so there are like birthday cake calamities and dog weee on the floor and constant mess and shouting so wacky, yeah, and him doing a very good job of remembering all their names and things about their personalities. And then also there's Hilaria, right, And I know we're not meant to mention women's appearance, but her breasts are unbelievably distracting and stupendous. She's talking to camera all the time about her babies, about the absence of a prenup, about what a dark time this is in their lives. Such a dark time that it's been turned into a chirpy reality show Mia, considering that overall the impression is of a troubled man falling apart in the middle of an ocean of children and tiny dogs and cats that he's allergic to. Why would Alec Baldwin and Alaria, of course, decide to make a reality show at all, and especially now.

Yeah, But the other overarching plotline is like this supposedly comedic mayhem of a family where a sixty six year old man is parenting seven children. Right, so there are like birthday cake calamities and dog weee on the floor and constant mess and shouting so wacky, yeah, and him doing a very good job of remembering all their names and things about their personalities. And then also there's Hilaria, right, And I know we're not meant to mention women's appearance, but her breasts are unbelievably distracting and stupendous. She's talking to camera all the time about her babies, about the absence of a prenup, about what a dark time this is in their lives. Such a dark time that it's been turned into a chirpy reality show Mia, considering that overall the impression is of a troubled man falling apart in the middle of an ocean of children and tiny dogs and cats that he's allergic to. Why would Alec Baldwin and Alaria, of course, decide to make a reality show at all, and especially now.

The first reason is because all the lawyer's fees are very expensive. The second reason is the same reason why most people do reality shows, which is they want to be understood, most famous people in the same way that Megan did her show. They want to write their own narrative, and they feel that the narrative created for them by the media and social media is incorrect and unfair, and they want to change the conversation and be better known. So the narrative that's been written for the Baldwins until this show was as you say, the tragedy of what happened on the set of Rust, and also Alaria and the how you say cucumber and her accent where and a few years ago, during a bit of a quiet news cycle, I think it was around Christmas. A couple of years ago, a video emerged of her doing a cooking demonstration and struggling with her English, and she's often spoken in a Spanish accent, and it came out that she's actually Hillary from Boston, who has no Spanish background, no Spanish heritage. She spent some time in Spain. I think her parents moved there after they retired, and she visited there a few times. But it became this idea that she was cosplaying being Spanish.

The first reason is because all the lawyer's fees are very expensive. The second reason is the same reason why most people do reality shows, which is they want to be understood, most famous people in the same way that Megan did her show. They want to write their own narrative, and they feel that the narrative created for them by the media and social media is incorrect and unfair, and they want to change the conversation and be better known. So the narrative that's been written for the Baldwins until this show was as you say, the tragedy of what happened on the set of Rust, and also Alaria and the how you say cucumber and her accent where and a few years ago, during a bit of a quiet news cycle, I think it was around Christmas. A couple of years ago, a video emerged of her doing a cooking demonstration and struggling with her English, and she's often spoken in a Spanish accent, and it came out that she's actually Hillary from Boston, who has no Spanish background, no Spanish heritage. She spent some time in Spain. I think her parents moved there after they retired, and she visited there a few times. But it became this idea that she was cosplaying being Spanish.

Speaks Spanish in the show a lot.

Speaks Spanish in the show a lot.

Yeah, And at one point in the show he says, oh, no, you're speaking too fast, and you're speaking in a Spanish accent, which never goes well, and so they do talk about that. I've only watched a little bit of the show, but I had it on in the background while we were preparing for today, and every time I looked at the screen, Alec Baldwin just looked either like he'd been crying, I assume that's when he was talking about what had happened on the set and the trial, or just utterly beleagued and overwhelmed, as you would be.

Yeah, And at one point in the show he says, oh, no, you're speaking too fast, and you're speaking in a Spanish accent, which never goes well, and so they do talk about that. I've only watched a little bit of the show, but I had it on in the background while we were preparing for today, and every time I looked at the screen, Alec Baldwin just looked either like he'd been crying, I assume that's when he was talking about what had happened on the set and the trial, or just utterly beleagued and overwhelmed, as you would be.

Because he's sixty six.

Because he's sixty six.

He is and he's like a curmudgeonally, like his vibe is like grumpy. He's famously used to have a lot of clashes with the paparazzi. Way before any of this, he played Trump on Saturday Night Live for a while.

He is and he's like a curmudgeonally, like his vibe is like grumpy. He's famously used to have a lot of clashes with the paparazzi. Way before any of this, he played Trump on Saturday Night Live for a while.

He's also sixty six in a way that we're going to talk about aging in a bit, but like he is not a sixty six year old movie star who's in action movie form. Like he's a sixty six year old movie star who actually looks sixty six, which is not Tane.

He's also sixty six in a way that we're going to talk about aging in a bit, but like he is not a sixty six year old movie star who's in action movie form. Like he's a sixty six year old movie star who actually looks sixty six, which is not Tane.

Cruise or Brad Pea.

Cruise or Brad Pea.

Yeah, not right now. He certainly isn't, both in his physical shape and his like very deep bags, Like he looks absolutely knackered, and he also looks like someone you know, Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, not right now. He certainly isn't, both in his physical shape and his like very deep bags, Like he looks absolutely knackered, and he also looks like someone you know, Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, this is a dystopian nightmare that is tonally completely incoherent. I have no idea why you would think this is a good idea, and this would end well to have the storyline of the sort of bumbling father and the funny chaos of the seven kids and da da da that reality show green Light understand great happens all the time. That's great. Then you need to layer it with some steaks, which is often the thing. It's like you see in every documentary It's like, what's our narrative arc, what are we working towards to laya that with the stakes of a woman who was killed and a little boy lost his mother, and the family is reeling and has said, we don't like this, we don't want this, we don't want this show. We find this really really uncomfortable, just feels so wrong, And a lot of people are saying, like, Alec Baldwin wasn't victim. Stories can have more than one victim, And I actually have empathy for Alec Baldwin. It was an accident. His life will never be the same. He is certainly not a victim in the same way as Helena was and her family. That's just the most awful, horrendous thing to have happened on set, But to use it as fodder for a reality show is so distasteful.

Yeah, this is a dystopian nightmare that is tonally completely incoherent. I have no idea why you would think this is a good idea, and this would end well to have the storyline of the sort of bumbling father and the funny chaos of the seven kids and da da da that reality show green Light understand great happens all the time. That's great. Then you need to layer it with some steaks, which is often the thing. It's like you see in every documentary It's like, what's our narrative arc, what are we working towards to laya that with the stakes of a woman who was killed and a little boy lost his mother, and the family is reeling and has said, we don't like this, we don't want this, we don't want this show. We find this really really uncomfortable, just feels so wrong, And a lot of people are saying, like, Alec Baldwin wasn't victim. Stories can have more than one victim, And I actually have empathy for Alec Baldwin. It was an accident. His life will never be the same. He is certainly not a victim in the same way as Helena was and her family. That's just the most awful, horrendous thing to have happened on set, But to use it as fodder for a reality show is so distasteful.

My suspicion is that this was in the works way before that happened, because I mean it has been for those people who sort of followed her. She was a yoga instructor, Taylor's oldest time, older man hooks up with younger woman and then she starts having the babies, and you know, one and two, yeah, and one and two, and then three, and then it suddenly he's a bit my Roman empire. That's why this reality show is a little bit my brain coming to life, because I think about it often, like sometimes on the weekend, when I'll just be chilling, I'll go imagine being Alec Baldwin. You finished work and you come home because he's still got to work, he's got to support seven children, and you come home and you've got seven babies.

My suspicion is that this was in the works way before that happened, because I mean it has been for those people who sort of followed her. She was a yoga instructor, Taylor's oldest time, older man hooks up with younger woman and then she starts having the babies, and you know, one and two, yeah, and one and two, and then three, and then it suddenly he's a bit my Roman empire. That's why this reality show is a little bit my brain coming to life, because I think about it often, like sometimes on the weekend, when I'll just be chilling, I'll go imagine being Alec Baldwin. You finished work and you come home because he's still got to work, he's got to support seven children, and you come home and you've got seven babies.

Yeah, but it's funny how we do this to older men, right, And it happens a bit in the White Lotus too, like the dynamic of the older man and the younger woman, almost like he's being manipulated or exploited by a younger woman who wants one hundred children and five hundred pets, as though he has no agency in his life, like the thing of just like how do we get all these children? And then he refers more than once I think to having seven children, like, oh we had seven children, you have eight children, mate.

Yeah, but it's funny how we do this to older men, right, And it happens a bit in the White Lotus too, like the dynamic of the older man and the younger woman, almost like he's being manipulated or exploited by a younger woman who wants one hundred children and five hundred pets, as though he has no agency in his life, like the thing of just like how do we get all these children? And then he refers more than once I think to having seven children, like, oh we had seven children, you have eight children, mate.

Yeah, but it is true that the question of why seven children is not answered, right, But he does say at the beginning, and she says too that when they very first met, he was very clear, I want kids. I want more kids. I want them now. And he says that he had this famously toxic, acrimonious divorce from Kim Besinger back in the day, with whom he had a daughter Ireland, and that went very badly. And a voice message back in the times of answering machines and all the rest of it was released where he was berating his teenage daughter a carder, a little pig, and that went well old fashioned viral, and his whole thing was what a terrible father, what a monster. And he sort of says I wanted a chance to do it again. And what's interesting about him saying that is I think a lot of older men think that they think I screwed it up the first time. I want another go at it. I'm going to do it differently. There's two things about this that I find interesting. Usually I'm pretty forgiving about people putting their kids in content. Right, if everyone's having a good time and people are getting paid and it's fair, I'm like, go for it. But this is really interesting because over the course of episode one, you get individually introduced to every kid with their name, with their personality traits. Little so and so likes planes, This one's really thoughtful, this one's really funny. This little girl's really bossy. The teenage girl is a classic teenage girl with lots of hair tossing and short shorts, and you're kind of like that footage is there forever now in a show that a lot of people are gonna hate watch. And the other thing that's interesting to me, I'm as much as the next person like to look inside rich people's lives, and so I'm like, I want to see this five bedroom penthouse apartment and they've got to see through dog pen and they've got the nannies and the cars and all that. But there is nothing aspirational about this show, right, you just go, oh no, no, no, no, no no, did you I see?

Yeah, but it is true that the question of why seven children is not answered, right, But he does say at the beginning, and she says too that when they very first met, he was very clear, I want kids. I want more kids. I want them now. And he says that he had this famously toxic, acrimonious divorce from Kim Besinger back in the day, with whom he had a daughter Ireland, and that went very badly. And a voice message back in the times of answering machines and all the rest of it was released where he was berating his teenage daughter a carder, a little pig, and that went well old fashioned viral, and his whole thing was what a terrible father, what a monster. And he sort of says I wanted a chance to do it again. And what's interesting about him saying that is I think a lot of older men think that they think I screwed it up the first time. I want another go at it. I'm going to do it differently. There's two things about this that I find interesting. Usually I'm pretty forgiving about people putting their kids in content. Right, if everyone's having a good time and people are getting paid and it's fair, I'm like, go for it. But this is really interesting because over the course of episode one, you get individually introduced to every kid with their name, with their personality traits. Little so and so likes planes, This one's really thoughtful, this one's really funny. This little girl's really bossy. The teenage girl is a classic teenage girl with lots of hair tossing and short shorts, and you're kind of like that footage is there forever now in a show that a lot of people are gonna hate watch. And the other thing that's interesting to me, I'm as much as the next person like to look inside rich people's lives, and so I'm like, I want to see this five bedroom penthouse apartment and they've got to see through dog pen and they've got the nannies and the cars and all that. But there is nothing aspirational about this show, right, you just go, oh no, no, no, no, no no, did you I see?

I don't mind the chaos. And there's something about the presenting it as a bit of a freak show that irks me a little bit. Maybe because my mum was one of seven and they, you know, came from like big Irish families. I see the appeal of that and the whole like why would you have like seven, which is what a lot of people are saying, is like.

I don't mind the chaos. And there's something about the presenting it as a bit of a freak show that irks me a little bit. Maybe because my mum was one of seven and they, you know, came from like big Irish families. I see the appeal of that and the whole like why would you have like seven, which is what a lot of people are saying, is like.

They're always interested in big families.

They're always interested in big families.

Yeah, and how they work? Yeah, I think that the machinations of how they all get car like, that's interesting.

Yeah, and how they work? Yeah, I think that the machinations of how they all get car like, that's interesting.

Do you remember all their names? Like how you give them all attention?

Do you remember all their names? Like how you give them all attention?

But I agree with you Holly on the kids, because there was a clip I watched of she might have been twelve speaking to her mum about Alec being in court and reflecting on how scared she was he was going to be sent to jail, and I just thought, this is a really private, vulnerable, scary moment. And what we know now about how reality TV is produced and the way that would have been filmed, the crew, how much they would have had to get in order to even make the show.

But I agree with you Holly on the kids, because there was a clip I watched of she might have been twelve speaking to her mum about Alec being in court and reflecting on how scared she was he was going to be sent to jail, and I just thought, this is a really private, vulnerable, scary moment. And what we know now about how reality TV is produced and the way that would have been filmed, the crew, how much they would have had to get in order to even make the show.

Anytimes she would have had to have the conversation. That's a great point.

Anytimes she would have had to have the conversation. That's a great point.

Do you think they would have been paid lots and lots and lots, Yeah, because, as you say, the money is significant, and they in this you see they're lavish in inverted commas Hampton's Beach House, which apparently is up for sale for similar reasons. So it's a little bit of desperation.

Do you think they would have been paid lots and lots and lots, Yeah, because, as you say, the money is significant, and they in this you see they're lavish in inverted commas Hampton's Beach House, which apparently is up for sale for similar reasons. So it's a little bit of desperation.

Yeah, Well, they've got bills to pay. It's simple business. And I think what's also fascinating, and I wonder if they'll referenced in a future episode. But I remember when she had I think her fifth or sixth baby, When that baby was about three or four months old, she appeared on Instagram with another baby, and no one could really understand what was going on, and then she said, we've adopted this baby. And I think now they're saying it was maybe a surrogate, and of course that's their personal business, but that's a pretty interesting decision in the middle of clearly she's not got fertility problems that we know of, and having all of these babies, which she documents herself carrying and her body snapping back after having each of them, she adopted one when she already had, Like, yeah, I'm fascinated in wonder.

Yeah, Well, they've got bills to pay. It's simple business. And I think what's also fascinating, and I wonder if they'll referenced in a future episode. But I remember when she had I think her fifth or sixth baby, When that baby was about three or four months old, she appeared on Instagram with another baby, and no one could really understand what was going on, and then she said, we've adopted this baby. And I think now they're saying it was maybe a surrogate, and of course that's their personal business, but that's a pretty interesting decision in the middle of clearly she's not got fertility problems that we know of, and having all of these babies, which she documents herself carrying and her body snapping back after having each of them, she adopted one when she already had, Like, yeah, I'm fascinated in wonder.

I thought, was there a way to embark on this project as a documentary if this was a documentary similar to the Beckhams.

I thought, was there a way to embark on this project as a documentary if this was a documentary similar to the Beckhams.

Yeah, a different style, different.

Yeah, a different style, different.

Style that could speak to the family, much of the victim. Because it is a tragic, horrible story. I haven't been able to look away from it because I just think how many lives have been touched.

Style that could speak to the family, much of the victim. Because it is a tragic, horrible story. I haven't been able to look away from it because I just think how many lives have been touched.

Again, to be a little bit fair, Hilaria in particular is very often saying to camera, we're going through a very hard time, Alex's mental health is hanging by a thread, but of course it is nothing compared to that is A many issue is.

Again, to be a little bit fair, Hilaria in particular is very often saying to camera, we're going through a very hard time, Alex's mental health is hanging by a thread, but of course it is nothing compared to that is A many issue is.

That the next scene is like Doo Do doin and.

That the next scene is like Doo Do doin and.

Tone is so strange.

Tone is so strange.

So if you want to watch the first episodes out, I'm not sure where the rest of them are. We found it on bin Chip.

So if you want to watch the first episodes out, I'm not sure where the rest of them are. We found it on bin Chip.

After the Break. A story about a facelift went viral on Muma Maya this week, and we want to discuss the exact age women start worrying about aging. Stay with us. My best friends look better than me. I feel betrayed by their tweaks. That's a headline on a story I came across from The Daily Mail this week by Kate Mulvey. She is a woman in her early sixties who describes catching up with friends from her UNI days and discovering that she was the odd one out. She says, I quote, I looked like their mum. Mulvey reflected on the storyline from this season of The White Lotus. The three friends from school to have had tweaks, the third hasn't, and the trio was confronted with the spectacle of aging in this week's episode, What.

After the Break. A story about a facelift went viral on Muma Maya this week, and we want to discuss the exact age women start worrying about aging. Stay with us. My best friends look better than me. I feel betrayed by their tweaks. That's a headline on a story I came across from The Daily Mail this week by Kate Mulvey. She is a woman in her early sixties who describes catching up with friends from her UNI days and discovering that she was the odd one out. She says, I quote, I looked like their mum. Mulvey reflected on the storyline from this season of The White Lotus. The three friends from school to have had tweaks, the third hasn't, and the trio was confronted with the spectacle of aging in this week's episode, What.

The actual fuck is this?

The actual fuck is this?

Place.

Place.

This is like a bargain hotel for retirees. It kind of seems like that, why would he.

This is like a bargain hotel for retirees. It kind of seems like that, why would he.

Send us here?

Send us here?

I got to get the fuck out of here.

I got to get the fuck out of here.

That was Jacqueline realizing that she had been sent to a hotel full of what she saw to be old people. Add to that a story on Mama Maya this week about a thirty seven year old woman named Kim who recently traveled to Turkey for a facelift. So she noticed what she saw as like excess skin and felt her reflection didn't match how she felt, and so for thirty thousand dollars she underwent a facelift. Now I was thinking recently, I'm thirty four. Am I doomed to worry or to think about aging until the day I die? And is it starting younger and younger? Because I reckon I've been thinking about the signs of aging since I was twenty eight. And if I live to eighty three, that's a life expectancy of an Australian woman. I will have spent fifty five years concerned about aging. That's most of mine.

That was Jacqueline realizing that she had been sent to a hotel full of what she saw to be old people. Add to that a story on Mama Maya this week about a thirty seven year old woman named Kim who recently traveled to Turkey for a facelift. So she noticed what she saw as like excess skin and felt her reflection didn't match how she felt, and so for thirty thousand dollars she underwent a facelift. Now I was thinking recently, I'm thirty four. Am I doomed to worry or to think about aging until the day I die? And is it starting younger and younger? Because I reckon I've been thinking about the signs of aging since I was twenty eight. And if I live to eighty three, that's a life expectancy of an Australian woman. I will have spent fifty five years concerned about aging. That's most of mine.

When you say aging you mean physically physically, I appear it's wise.

When you say aging you mean physically physically, I appear it's wise.

The word decline it's like you feel. I honestly think that from about twenty eight you're like, am I in decline? And do you ever truly revel in youth?

The word decline it's like you feel. I honestly think that from about twenty eight you're like, am I in decline? And do you ever truly revel in youth?

Decline? By whose measure? Well?

Decline? By whose measure? Well?

Everything. It's like physically you start to go, am I looking older and older? And you start to see your face move more and more and more lines, which you are seeing as a culture, the women older than you're raising, so you're hearing bad, bad bad. I also think about things though, like memory and energy and all that kind of stuff, and the proper importance the important stuff. Longevity is the Yeah, Holly, there's no way my ground mother or my mother with thinking about aging in their early thirties. I know, it's ridiculous. What is going on?

Everything. It's like physically you start to go, am I looking older and older? And you start to see your face move more and more and more lines, which you are seeing as a culture, the women older than you're raising, so you're hearing bad, bad bad. I also think about things though, like memory and energy and all that kind of stuff, and the proper importance the important stuff. Longevity is the Yeah, Holly, there's no way my ground mother or my mother with thinking about aging in their early thirties. I know, it's ridiculous. What is going on?

Well, one of the things that's going on and MEA Friedman called this a while ago when she wrote an essay about how aging has apparently become a choice, right, because it hasn't really actual aging hasn't become a choice. The years still tick over, our bodies are still aging all of those things. But visually, physically, aging on our faces appears like it's become a choice, which is not how it used to be. It's a little bit Like we've talked before about how it used to be that if a woman didn't have children and she was sort of forty early forties, people would be like, oh, we'll stop asking because you know, whereas now that pressure is never off because the technology has evolved, and so it has with being able to erase the signs of aging. Right, So now the barriers to looking eternally young ish are only money, time and a sort of discipline and will is it important enough to you? Are you going to do it? So it seems now that well, you could look young, So why wouldn't you? Because what's interesting is, despite all the many advances we've made in lots of areas about how we see women and women's choices in women's lives and women's decisions to work well into their later years or have kids or not have kids or whatever, women getting older is still the scariest thing that any of us can imagine. And if you couple that with what we talked about last week, which is that we've never looked at ourselves more from an earlier age. Remember we talked about mirrors, school kids and mirrors, and how my daughter has literally been using her phone as a mirror since she got one at twelve. Those things have clashed into each other and mean that instead of feeling more positive about well, look at all these advances in aging. Now you can be forty and you're not considered old. It's instead it's like, oh my gosh, I notice every little thing, and I should be on it now.

Well, one of the things that's going on and MEA Friedman called this a while ago when she wrote an essay about how aging has apparently become a choice, right, because it hasn't really actual aging hasn't become a choice. The years still tick over, our bodies are still aging all of those things. But visually, physically, aging on our faces appears like it's become a choice, which is not how it used to be. It's a little bit Like we've talked before about how it used to be that if a woman didn't have children and she was sort of forty early forties, people would be like, oh, we'll stop asking because you know, whereas now that pressure is never off because the technology has evolved, and so it has with being able to erase the signs of aging. Right, So now the barriers to looking eternally young ish are only money, time and a sort of discipline and will is it important enough to you? Are you going to do it? So it seems now that well, you could look young, So why wouldn't you? Because what's interesting is, despite all the many advances we've made in lots of areas about how we see women and women's choices in women's lives and women's decisions to work well into their later years or have kids or not have kids or whatever, women getting older is still the scariest thing that any of us can imagine. And if you couple that with what we talked about last week, which is that we've never looked at ourselves more from an earlier age. Remember we talked about mirrors, school kids and mirrors, and how my daughter has literally been using her phone as a mirror since she got one at twelve. Those things have clashed into each other and mean that instead of feeling more positive about well, look at all these advances in aging. Now you can be forty and you're not considered old. It's instead it's like, oh my gosh, I notice every little thing, and I should be on it now.

And you should be trying to reverse it earlier. And that's what the faith lift at thirty seven. And there are a lot of comments and a lot of readers who just went, what on earth are you doing? And this Kim who spoke to my Maya was saying, no, it's a good thing because if I do it now, it's almost preventative. I don't have to get the big face lift in my fifties or sixties, I have to all ye.

And you should be trying to reverse it earlier. And that's what the faith lift at thirty seven. And there are a lot of comments and a lot of readers who just went, what on earth are you doing? And this Kim who spoke to my Maya was saying, no, it's a good thing because if I do it now, it's almost preventative. I don't have to get the big face lift in my fifties or sixties, I have to all ye.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I see it as like being a cog in the capitalist machine of the younger you get women, and it is majority women. The younger you get them, the more tweaks are going to have. You can't tell me that someone who's getting the facelift at thirty seven isn't geting another one in ten years, another one, another one in ten years. And then I think some sort of and I don't want to be flippant with the use of this word, but some sort of dysmorphia kicks in. There's a cultural dysmorphia, which is sometimes I look around and go, no one's for it is moving anymore. But then there's also in the mirror. If you start getting those tweaks, then any signs you start to remove more and more, which is you know, we've seen this with celebrities. They get a few tweaks, whether it's they want to look more youthful, but then can get more and more extreme because what you're seeing in the mirror has become so skewed.

So I see it as like being a cog in the capitalist machine of the younger you get women, and it is majority women. The younger you get them, the more tweaks are going to have. You can't tell me that someone who's getting the facelift at thirty seven isn't geting another one in ten years, another one, another one in ten years. And then I think some sort of and I don't want to be flippant with the use of this word, but some sort of dysmorphia kicks in. There's a cultural dysmorphia, which is sometimes I look around and go, no one's for it is moving anymore. But then there's also in the mirror. If you start getting those tweaks, then any signs you start to remove more and more, which is you know, we've seen this with celebrities. They get a few tweaks, whether it's they want to look more youthful, but then can get more and more extreme because what you're seeing in the mirror has become so skewed.

Well, it becomes an arms race, doesn't it. And back to what you said about when your peer group starts to all get it and the age is getting younger and younger, it does become an arms race. And it's not even just fomo. It's more like I don't.

Well, it becomes an arms race, doesn't it. And back to what you said about when your peer group starts to all get it and the age is getting younger and younger, it does become an arms race. And it's not even just fomo. It's more like I don't.

Want to be the odd one out. Yeah, and out louders have spoken to us about this, because there are some out louders who will say, I don't know a single person who's had any of it done.

Want to be the odd one out. Yeah, and out louders have spoken to us about this, because there are some out louders who will say, I don't know a single person who's had any of it done.

It's contagious.

It's contagious.

It's totally contagious. It's the same as lifestyle factors. It's the same as where your holiday. It's all of those things. And then there are other outluders where they will sit down at dinner and they've all they all had it.

It's totally contagious. It's the same as lifestyle factors. It's the same as where your holiday. It's all of those things. And then there are other outluders where they will sit down at dinner and they've all they all had it.

What you said about Kim, the woman who got the facelift at thirty seven, and she noticed some excess skin and she didn't look the way she felt. I think that's probably a little naive in that she didn't look the way she looked in her phone, and she didn't look the way she looked in the filtered photos that she posted of herself.

What you said about Kim, the woman who got the facelift at thirty seven, and she noticed some excess skin and she didn't look the way she felt. I think that's probably a little naive in that she didn't look the way she looked in her phone, and she didn't look the way she looked in the filtered photos that she posted of herself.

I thought that, but then in the interview she was saying she often shows up on TikTok or Instagram without makeup on, like she seemed to have a sense of what she really looked like.

I thought that, but then in the interview she was saying she often shows up on TikTok or Instagram without makeup on, like she seemed to have a sense of what she really looked like.

Yeah, it's interesting because the other aspect to all of this, and you mentioned our mothers and our grandmothers didn't worry about aging, or maybe they did, but there was no choice and the only thing that was available were like creams and a full face lift, which was something that old rich people and maybe celebrities got. It was not accessible. It was not accessible at all. Now there are so many little tweakments that you can get which is the on ramp to bigger and bigger procedures. And again with the arms race, you start with it and this was always my fear of getting botox. You start with a little bit and then it's like once you've broken that fourth wall. For me, I was like, oh, well, maybe I could get a bit more, Maybe I could, you know. Suddenly to me it was like, I've I liked being able to say I've had nothing, and I've had to really watch that in myself, and I've found myself fascinated by other women's faces. And what we've also seen is this absolute homogenization of women's faces. You looked at the oscars and whether it was Mikey Madison or Demi Moore, they all look around the same age and that's weird. So you know, look, that's how beauty standards change one hundred percent. And I think that it takes like an Olympic level skills at disassociation from what you look like to not feel this pressure or iron clad self confidence and self belief which some people have. Right, You've never had it, so which is it for you?

Yeah, it's interesting because the other aspect to all of this, and you mentioned our mothers and our grandmothers didn't worry about aging, or maybe they did, but there was no choice and the only thing that was available were like creams and a full face lift, which was something that old rich people and maybe celebrities got. It was not accessible. It was not accessible at all. Now there are so many little tweakments that you can get which is the on ramp to bigger and bigger procedures. And again with the arms race, you start with it and this was always my fear of getting botox. You start with a little bit and then it's like once you've broken that fourth wall. For me, I was like, oh, well, maybe I could get a bit more, Maybe I could, you know. Suddenly to me it was like, I've I liked being able to say I've had nothing, and I've had to really watch that in myself, and I've found myself fascinated by other women's faces. And what we've also seen is this absolute homogenization of women's faces. You looked at the oscars and whether it was Mikey Madison or Demi Moore, they all look around the same age and that's weird. So you know, look, that's how beauty standards change one hundred percent. And I think that it takes like an Olympic level skills at disassociation from what you look like to not feel this pressure or iron clad self confidence and self belief which some people have. Right, You've never had it, so which is it for you?

But I struggle with it all the time, and I think about it all the time, because there's no question that it is confronting seeing your face age, and in some ways it's more confronting because as MEA just said that, our choices to people are like, why wouldn't you be doing that? Why wouldn't you be doing that? Why wouldn't be doing that? And I think maybe there used to be more of a cultural sense that like beauty in inverted commerce was for the young and the old. People had other virtues, right, like wisdom and you know, all of that kind of stuff, souperation. The idea is long gone because now we've extended the time and the pressure to be beautiful. Yeah, from the minute you are conscious of the face that looks back at you in the mirror until the moment you die, there is absolutely no excuse for it. Have you let yourself go? Do you want people to? And sometimes it's really existential because you worry about am I relevant? Am I interesting? Is anything I've got to say interesting? If people just think I'm old? Because as I say, I think agism has gotten worse, not better, in the past decade or so, and I think that that's really tricky. I also think about the friend groups that what usually happens is the first person in the friend group to get some work or whatever it is done, you know, like whether it is just a bit of a more expensive facial going into maybe some injectables, turning into a bit of filler. Whatever is usually mocked in the friend group, either quietly or behind the back at the beginning, and then a few months everybody stopped mocking. That's gone silent, starts going so exactly thing you're getting done, because you know, as brutal as that headline is from the woman who's like, my friends look better than me, that's how you begin to feel and you're like, what am I holding out for?

But I struggle with it all the time, and I think about it all the time, because there's no question that it is confronting seeing your face age, and in some ways it's more confronting because as MEA just said that, our choices to people are like, why wouldn't you be doing that? Why wouldn't you be doing that? Why wouldn't be doing that? And I think maybe there used to be more of a cultural sense that like beauty in inverted commerce was for the young and the old. People had other virtues, right, like wisdom and you know, all of that kind of stuff, souperation. The idea is long gone because now we've extended the time and the pressure to be beautiful. Yeah, from the minute you are conscious of the face that looks back at you in the mirror until the moment you die, there is absolutely no excuse for it. Have you let yourself go? Do you want people to? And sometimes it's really existential because you worry about am I relevant? Am I interesting? Is anything I've got to say interesting? If people just think I'm old? Because as I say, I think agism has gotten worse, not better, in the past decade or so, and I think that that's really tricky. I also think about the friend groups that what usually happens is the first person in the friend group to get some work or whatever it is done, you know, like whether it is just a bit of a more expensive facial going into maybe some injectables, turning into a bit of filler. Whatever is usually mocked in the friend group, either quietly or behind the back at the beginning, and then a few months everybody stopped mocking. That's gone silent, starts going so exactly thing you're getting done, because you know, as brutal as that headline is from the woman who's like, my friends look better than me, that's how you begin to feel and you're like, what am I holding out for?

It's funny. It reminds me of I've seen this thing online about blonde dysmorphia, which is that every blonde feels like it's not blunt enough. You keep getting blunder and blunder, and you get you sit in front of the hairdresser and you have white hair, and you're like, I just need to be lighter. Your vision sort of changes with it. But I think that, you know, people talk about vanity. I don't think that the choice whether or not to have it is even about vanity or values so much necessarily as it is about switching off the noise. I think some people are just like I think about these lines, this thing, you know, people think like many hours a day exactly, and people have it with you know, whether it's a mole or a nose job or whatever. It's just like, I don't want to think about this anymore. I'm sure I could do some psychological work.

It's funny. It reminds me of I've seen this thing online about blonde dysmorphia, which is that every blonde feels like it's not blunt enough. You keep getting blunder and blunder, and you get you sit in front of the hairdresser and you have white hair, and you're like, I just need to be lighter. Your vision sort of changes with it. But I think that, you know, people talk about vanity. I don't think that the choice whether or not to have it is even about vanity or values so much necessarily as it is about switching off the noise. I think some people are just like I think about these lines, this thing, you know, people think like many hours a day exactly, and people have it with you know, whether it's a mole or a nose job or whatever. It's just like, I don't want to think about this anymore. I'm sure I could do some psychological work.

I think about it less since I did it, and that's where i'd when I recognize in you, I was at my most tortured in the years where I wanted to have it, but I felt conflicted about it, and I didn't want to want to have it.

I think about it less since I did it, and that's where i'd when I recognize in you, I was at my most tortured in the years where I wanted to have it, but I felt conflicted about it, and I didn't want to want to have it.

I know, because it's this week. You're so right, Jesse about it isn't to do with values. And just to be really clear, like I do not have a judgmental position on this, I really really don't. I'm just more like I want to be the kind of person who can accept myself.

I know, because it's this week. You're so right, Jesse about it isn't to do with values. And just to be really clear, like I do not have a judgmental position on this, I really really don't. I'm just more like I want to be the kind of person who can accept myself.

How it turns out, I wanted that too.

How it turns out, I wanted that too.

I don't know that I am. How do you prove to your boss that you're working. It's a dilemma that gen Z have solved for everyone, and it's called task masking amid sweeping back to work mandates a new generation of figuring out office etiquette for the first time and realize that, unlike what you're doing at home, people can actually see you when you're at work. Enter task masking, which is essentially making sure you look busy at all times. Examples include walking moving quickly around the office space with a laptop or notebook held tightly to your chest, typing loudly and fervently, even when what you're typing has no relevance or urgency, and the classic line that George Costanza said and Seinfeld, right now.

I don't know that I am. How do you prove to your boss that you're working. It's a dilemma that gen Z have solved for everyone, and it's called task masking amid sweeping back to work mandates a new generation of figuring out office etiquette for the first time and realize that, unlike what you're doing at home, people can actually see you when you're at work. Enter task masking, which is essentially making sure you look busy at all times. Examples include walking moving quickly around the office space with a laptop or notebook held tightly to your chest, typing loudly and fervently, even when what you're typing has no relevance or urgency, and the classic line that George Costanza said and Seinfeld, right now.

I should around pretending that I'm busy. Now you pull that off.

I should around pretending that I'm busy. Now you pull that off.

I always look annoyed.

I always look annoyed.

When you look annoyed all the time, people think that you're busy.

When you look annoyed all the time, people think that you're busy.

We have that, I know.

We have that, I know.

We asked our resident hustle hard girl boss, etc. Gen Z friend am Vernon if she's familiar with task masking.

We asked our resident hustle hard girl boss, etc. Gen Z friend am Vernon if she's familiar with task masking.

So I don't task masks because I'm actually genuinely, really busy and everybody knows that. But what I have seen some people do is that they would slack out of hours, and they would slack non urgent messages when we all know that you can schedule that message in. So we can send during a work appropriate time. We know what you're doing. You're task masking, You're not that busy.

So I don't task masks because I'm actually genuinely, really busy and everybody knows that. But what I have seen some people do is that they would slack out of hours, and they would slack non urgent messages when we all know that you can schedule that message in. So we can send during a work appropriate time. We know what you're doing. You're task masking, You're not that busy.

I have fired.

I have fired.

Yeah, I have so many examples of this. I think bad posture makes you look like you're working harder than good posture. Anyone who's sitting up too straight.

Yeah, I have so many examples of this. I think bad posture makes you look like you're working harder than good posture. Anyone who's sitting up too straight.

I'm like, that's just a justification for hunch.

I'm like, that's just a justification for hunch.

Yes it is wrappers on your desk, lunch trappers. Oh yes, coffee yeap, dirty cup really really helps in terms of that person's busy.

Yes it is wrappers on your desk, lunch trappers. Oh yes, coffee yeap, dirty cup really really helps in terms of that person's busy.

I think headphones in headphones mess up your hair.

I think headphones in headphones mess up your hair.

I think a little bit of messy hair, maybe a little bit of smudged eyel.

I think a little bit of messy hair, maybe a little bit of smudged eyel.

So you've just made all of these things up to justify looking like a hot mess.

So you've just made all of these things up to justify looking like a hot mess.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. I really when I see someone with a bun on the top of their head, I go.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. I really when I see someone with a bun on the top of their head, I go.

Shit, she is so deep.

Shit, she is so deep.

That's a busy woman.

That's a busy woman.

That is a busy woman. She's got to concentrate so much, she's got to pull her hair back from her brain.

That is a busy woman. She's got to concentrate so much, she's got to pull her hair back from her brain.

Me, you're a boss. Do you ever get fooled by task basking all the time, all the time.

Me, you're a boss. Do you ever get fooled by task basking all the time, all the time.

I'm so easily impressed. Schedule a message out of hours and I'll be like you.

I'm so easily impressed. Schedule a message out of hours and I'll be like you.

Legend Jesse just huffed she must be having a big day.

Legend Jesse just huffed she must be having a big day.

After the break. Have you lost your gut instinct? You are not alone. We are going to tell you the trick to getting it back. In the age of advice on.

After the break. Have you lost your gut instinct? You are not alone. We are going to tell you the trick to getting it back. In the age of advice on.

A it out Loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link at the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

A it out Loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link at the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

We're living in the age of being influenced by celebrities, people we follow, gurus Megan Sussex. There's never been so much advice out there from self proclaimed experts who are telling us what to think and what to do, and what they think and what they do. They're teaching us how to ask for a pay rise, what attachment style we have, why we should watch our cortisol levels, and whether this season of The White Lotus is a triumph We're a bit disappointing. But what is the effect of all these opinions and all this advice on our own ability to tune into our gun instinct, to know instinctively what we think about something or what we think we should do. One of the most read articles on Mama Maa this week was by Ailish Delaney, who wrote about how she fears that having so many people available to tell her what to think has made her lose touch with her gut. And it's interesting this idea of gut instinct, because it can sound a little bit woo woo, but it's actually not. According to clinical psychologist Rachel Harker, who was quoted in this article, she says that gut instinct is essentially our brain processing things really quickly, almost before our consciousness catches up or our rational mind catches up. And she says that it's basically like a thin slice, quick call from all of our past lived experience and memories and learned behavior. And it's interesting because Alish writes, when something goes wrong in my life, I rushed to the group chat for advice. I send the same voice note to several friends to get their opinion on how a date went. I turned to strangers online to see if how I'm feeling as normal. I scroll and scroll until the external chatter and my internal anxiety has become so loud it leaves me wondering what my gut feeling even was in the first place, Jesse, do you trust your gut instinct or have you lost touch with it?

We're living in the age of being influenced by celebrities, people we follow, gurus Megan Sussex. There's never been so much advice out there from self proclaimed experts who are telling us what to think and what to do, and what they think and what they do. They're teaching us how to ask for a pay rise, what attachment style we have, why we should watch our cortisol levels, and whether this season of The White Lotus is a triumph We're a bit disappointing. But what is the effect of all these opinions and all this advice on our own ability to tune into our gun instinct, to know instinctively what we think about something or what we think we should do. One of the most read articles on Mama Maa this week was by Ailish Delaney, who wrote about how she fears that having so many people available to tell her what to think has made her lose touch with her gut. And it's interesting this idea of gut instinct, because it can sound a little bit woo woo, but it's actually not. According to clinical psychologist Rachel Harker, who was quoted in this article, she says that gut instinct is essentially our brain processing things really quickly, almost before our consciousness catches up or our rational mind catches up. And she says that it's basically like a thin slice, quick call from all of our past lived experience and memories and learned behavior. And it's interesting because Alish writes, when something goes wrong in my life, I rushed to the group chat for advice. I send the same voice note to several friends to get their opinion on how a date went. I turned to strangers online to see if how I'm feeling as normal. I scroll and scroll until the external chatter and my internal anxiety has become so loud it leaves me wondering what my gut feeling even was in the first place, Jesse, do you trust your gut instinct or have you lost touch with it?

My gut has a mental illness, and this is something I've always struggled with. So I think that because I'm a anxious person, I have a really complicated relationship with my gut because I think it lies to me. I have to believe it lies to me. Like I wrote a book called something abaud is going to Happen because my gut has been telling me that something really, really awful is bad to happen.

My gut has a mental illness, and this is something I've always struggled with. So I think that because I'm a anxious person, I have a really complicated relationship with my gut because I think it lies to me. I have to believe it lies to me. Like I wrote a book called something abaud is going to Happen because my gut has been telling me that something really, really awful is bad to happen.

Okay, So yes. I used to think when I was really scared of flying, I would be like, I've got a gut instinct that the plane's going to crash, and then it's like, no, sweetie, that's just anxiety.

Okay, So yes. I used to think when I was really scared of flying, I would be like, I've got a gut instinct that the plane's going to crash, and then it's like, no, sweetie, that's just anxiety.

Yes, And so I've had a complicated relationship on that end. But I think with parenting, people say to you, go with your gut. You'll know if something's wrong, you'll know, you'll know.

Yes, And so I've had a complicated relationship on that end. But I think with parenting, people say to you, go with your gut. You'll know if something's wrong, you'll know, you'll know.

What to do.

What to do.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that you often feel like taking your child to hospital just to get them checked out. But I do think a big problem has become there is so much a There is so much undermining I make the choice to sort out Luna's sleep, and then I go on Instagram and forty five experts tell me that I am forever traumatizing my child. That's going to undermine my gut instinct, and parenting from a place of fear and zero confidence isn't good for anyone. So I've had to have moments where I go to do something, whether it's to do with it's like you've got to let go of maybe what the book would tell you to do and go what's my gut telling me is the right way to parent my child right now.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that you often feel like taking your child to hospital just to get them checked out. But I do think a big problem has become there is so much a There is so much undermining I make the choice to sort out Luna's sleep, and then I go on Instagram and forty five experts tell me that I am forever traumatizing my child. That's going to undermine my gut instinct, and parenting from a place of fear and zero confidence isn't good for anyone. So I've had to have moments where I go to do something, whether it's to do with it's like you've got to let go of maybe what the book would tell you to do and go what's my gut telling me is the right way to parent my child right now.

You're very data driven, though, and you like research, So how much of it is about going and gathering a whole lot of data, thinking about it and then tuning into your gut.

You're very data driven, though, and you like research, So how much of it is about going and gathering a whole lot of data, thinking about it and then tuning into your gut.

Well, that's the thing. I think. It's the process of almost untangling the gut. So the other day I did something, a work thing, and my gut instinct afterwards told me I'd done a terrible job. I felt sick. I felt like it had gone really really wrong, but all the data was telling me hadn't gone wrong. And then I start to ruminate, and then it'll ruin my week. So when I had a moment alone, I sat there and I wrote in my notes AP just kind of worked out what had happened, where's this gut instinct coming from? And I think I was able to unwrap it a bit and go, Okay, this is coming from a place of insecurity because this thing happened, and then I was able to trust it a little bit more. I think sometimes these not good beliefs or values can make you feel like this.

Well, that's the thing. I think. It's the process of almost untangling the gut. So the other day I did something, a work thing, and my gut instinct afterwards told me I'd done a terrible job. I felt sick. I felt like it had gone really really wrong, but all the data was telling me hadn't gone wrong. And then I start to ruminate, and then it'll ruin my week. So when I had a moment alone, I sat there and I wrote in my notes AP just kind of worked out what had happened, where's this gut instinct coming from? And I think I was able to unwrap it a bit and go, Okay, this is coming from a place of insecurity because this thing happened, and then I was able to trust it a little bit more. I think sometimes these not good beliefs or values can make you feel like this.

Is a worst job.

Is a worst job.

I'm similar in that I don't trust my instinct when I'm going through a period of shaky confidence, which I definitely do. And what I love about Miya one of the many things I love about Meya is if I walk into MIA's office and I say, what should we do about this thing? Mia will say we should do this.

I'm similar in that I don't trust my instinct when I'm going through a period of shaky confidence, which I definitely do. And what I love about Miya one of the many things I love about Meya is if I walk into MIA's office and I say, what should we do about this thing? Mia will say we should do this.

Right.

Right.

If you come and ask me what should we do about this thing? I think different on different days and when I had different jobs, I'll probably say, well, we could do this or we could do that. Let's have a little minute to think about it and work it out.

If you come and ask me what should we do about this thing? I think different on different days and when I had different jobs, I'll probably say, well, we could do this or we could do that. Let's have a little minute to think about it and work it out.

Right.

Right.