You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts.

You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts.

In the criminal justice System, landmark trials transcend the courtroom to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select group that has defined American history. These are their stories. October sixth, nineteen eighty six, Manhattan Federal Court.

In the criminal justice System, landmark trials transcend the courtroom to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select group that has defined American history. These are their stories. October sixth, nineteen eighty six, Manhattan Federal Court.

Testimony continue today in the trial of that mafia so called Ruling Commission Government and informer Fredda Christopher testifying today against Carmine Persico, the repeated boss of the Colombo crime family, and on one of the defendants.

Testimony continue today in the trial of that mafia so called Ruling Commission Government and informer Fredda Christopher testifying today against Carmine Persico, the repeated boss of the Colombo crime family, and on one of the defendants.

Fred de Christopher was testifying for the prosecution in the Commission trial. He was Columbo family boss Carmine Persico's cousin by marriage. De Christopher had hidden Persico in his home for months and had witnessed nearly everything the boss did, and was now ready to give him up. Persico was acting as his own attorney, and to Christopher's betrayal, struck a deep nerve.

Fred de Christopher was testifying for the prosecution in the Commission trial. He was Columbo family boss Carmine Persico's cousin by marriage. De Christopher had hidden Persico in his home for months and had witnessed nearly everything the boss did, and was now ready to give him up. Persico was acting as his own attorney, and to Christopher's betrayal, struck a deep nerve.

This sent Persco into orbit. I mean, if you've ever heard the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is like looking surface missiles at somebody. What Persca wanted to do was to cross examined for a to Christopher and intimidate him, to make him squirm.

This sent Persco into orbit. I mean, if you've ever heard the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is like looking surface missiles at somebody. What Persca wanted to do was to cross examined for a to Christopher and intimidate him, to make him squirm.

You could just feel the venom and the hatred that Persico felt for De Christopher during his attempt to cross examine him, that this former relative, former confidant had turned against him and become a government witness.

You could just feel the venom and the hatred that Persico felt for De Christopher during his attempt to cross examine him, that this former relative, former confidant had turned against him and become a government witness.

As Persico cross examined, the sparks started to fly.

As Persico cross examined, the sparks started to fly.

At times, they bickered with the familiarity comment only to people who have lived again. Presco charged that someone bought the Christopher's Long Island home for him. To Christopher, you know I bought that house, Persico, You couldn't buy sucks.

At times, they bickered with the familiarity comment only to people who have lived again. Presco charged that someone bought the Christopher's Long Island home for him. To Christopher, you know I bought that house, Persico, You couldn't buy sucks.

Persico took every opportunity to impune, intimidate, and even threaten the witness, behavior that in most trials would warrant an objection, But in this instance, Persico's remarks only served to paint him as the vindictive criminal that the government charged.

Persico took every opportunity to impune, intimidate, and even threaten the witness, behavior that in most trials would warrant an objection, But in this instance, Persico's remarks only served to paint him as the vindictive criminal that the government charged.

And finally, at one point Fred kind of lost his temper and said, I know what you're trying to do with me, Carmie, I know what you're trying to do. And Perscoe very quietly in a low menacing voice said the judge, you won't let me tell you what I want to do with you. And I remember leaning over to John Savage and he just convicted himself because he sounds like the mobster he is.

And finally, at one point Fred kind of lost his temper and said, I know what you're trying to do with me, Carmie, I know what you're trying to do. And Perscoe very quietly in a low menacing voice said the judge, you won't let me tell you what I want to do with you. And I remember leaning over to John Savage and he just convicted himself because he sounds like the mobster he is.

At one point, defense attorney Cardinal called for a mistrial. He tried to Judge Richard Owen for allowing the Christopher to call Persico Junior his nickname. The judge told both men to try to be more formal. That didn't work for long.

At one point, defense attorney Cardinal called for a mistrial. He tried to Judge Richard Owen for allowing the Christopher to call Persico Junior his nickname. The judge told both men to try to be more formal. That didn't work for long.

The Christopher wouldn't last long. Christico would have literally eaten him alive.

The Christopher wouldn't last long. Christico would have literally eaten him alive.

You're not with the mob because you want to be.

You're not with the mob because you want to be.

It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated on.

It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated on.

If you like your life, you will vote to acquit.

If you like your life, you will vote to acquit.

I'm aniseg and NICOLASI my father should have been a dead.

I'm aniseg and NICOLASI my father should have been a dead.

Man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is lawn Order criminal justice system. The Mafia Commission trial was well underway. It was New York versus the Mob, a showdown decades in the making. Four mob bosses and their underbosses had been summoned to face multiple charges of bribery, extortion, and murder, and to everyone's surprise, Carmine Persico had chosen to forego an attorney and represent himself, and while he was no trial lawyer, even prosecutors had to admit that his inexperience was disarming and at times surprisingly effective. Here's Gil Childers.

Man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is lawn Order criminal justice system. The Mafia Commission trial was well underway. It was New York versus the Mob, a showdown decades in the making. Four mob bosses and their underbosses had been summoned to face multiple charges of bribery, extortion, and murder, and to everyone's surprise, Carmine Persico had chosen to forego an attorney and represent himself, and while he was no trial lawyer, even prosecutors had to admit that his inexperience was disarming and at times surprisingly effective. Here's Gil Childers.

He never got my name right. He never never said Childers. He called me mister Child's, mister Children's.

He never got my name right. He never never said Childers. He called me mister Child's, mister Children's.

Whatever the move left the Feds to wonder was Persico's bravado and unpredictability all part of some master plan.

Whatever the move left the Feds to wonder was Persico's bravado and unpredictability all part of some master plan.

He did witness examinations, cross exams on his own and stuff like that. People are saying, you know, why the hell would he do that? Well, he had nothing to lose, right, he got to stay in New York, and he got to thumb his nose at the government little bit. Do you think I'm a chief hood? You know, I'll show you I can play in your ballpark.

He did witness examinations, cross exams on his own and stuff like that. People are saying, you know, why the hell would he do that? Well, he had nothing to lose, right, he got to stay in New York, and he got to thumb his nose at the government little bit. Do you think I'm a chief hood? You know, I'll show you I can play in your ballpark.

Gil says that throughout the trial, Persico took every opportunity to shake things up, knowing his defiance and street charm had the potential to win over the jury of his fellow New Yorkers.

Gil says that throughout the trial, Persico took every opportunity to shake things up, knowing his defiance and street charm had the potential to win over the jury of his fellow New Yorkers.

Give him credit for this. He tried to act like a lawyer as best he could. In most instances. During one of his cross examinations of a FBI surveillance witness. He's up there and he says, Agent Jones, when you were there doing that surveillance, Were you trying to record this too? Did you have one of those diabolic microphones meaning parabolic microphone is one of those diabolic microphones that could pick up people down the street. A good scriptwriter might come to a line like that, but it would take some thought.

Give him credit for this. He tried to act like a lawyer as best he could. In most instances. During one of his cross examinations of a FBI surveillance witness. He's up there and he says, Agent Jones, when you were there doing that surveillance, Were you trying to record this too? Did you have one of those diabolic microphones meaning parabolic microphone is one of those diabolic microphones that could pick up people down the street. A good scriptwriter might come to a line like that, but it would take some thought.

But his affable act was also partly a disguise.

But his affable act was also partly a disguise.

During the part of the trial we were presenting the evidence in the Galante homicide, Michael Bowden, who at the time of the murder was the medical examiner for the City of New York, was testifying, and he had testified that Galante had summer in the neighborhood of eighty plus entry and exit wounds, tremendous carnage done to the bodies of the three victims, And while Boden was still in the stand, one of the defense counsel asked for a sidebar.

During the part of the trial we were presenting the evidence in the Galante homicide, Michael Bowden, who at the time of the murder was the medical examiner for the City of New York, was testifying, and he had testified that Galante had summer in the neighborhood of eighty plus entry and exit wounds, tremendous carnage done to the bodies of the three victims, And while Boden was still in the stand, one of the defense counsel asked for a sidebar.

Acting as his own lawyer, Persigo was entitled to join the meeting at the judge's bench, and it gave a brief window into the mobster's true nature.

Acting as his own lawyer, Persigo was entitled to join the meeting at the judge's bench, and it gave a brief window into the mobster's true nature.

So just before the sidebar actually started. Persigo tugged on my coat sleeve and said, mister childs them guys, you think them guys died of gunshot wounds, and he dropped his head onto my shoulder. I'm looking down at the top of this guy's head as he's laughing after that coming and going, holy, this is one six bitch. And it was both a chilling and a sort of remarkable moment, the musings of a psycho mob boss.

So just before the sidebar actually started. Persigo tugged on my coat sleeve and said, mister childs them guys, you think them guys died of gunshot wounds, and he dropped his head onto my shoulder. I'm looking down at the top of this guy's head as he's laughing after that coming and going, holy, this is one six bitch. And it was both a chilling and a sort of remarkable moment, the musings of a psycho mob boss.

The fact was that Persigo had an meanstreak a mile wide, and lead prosecutor Michael Cherdoff knew that if it was put on full display, it could lead to the mobster's downfall.

The fact was that Persigo had an meanstreak a mile wide, and lead prosecutor Michael Cherdoff knew that if it was put on full display, it could lead to the mobster's downfall.

Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain Carmim Persco was the one who took it the most personally, and it was the most personally antagonistic.

Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain Carmim Persco was the one who took it the most personally, and it was the most personally antagonistic.

One of the most striking examples of his short fuse was when Persico faced off against a government witness named fred de Christopher. It was a showdown that had a long time coming.

One of the most striking examples of his short fuse was when Persico faced off against a government witness named fred de Christopher. It was a showdown that had a long time coming.

Most of the other defendants had been on tape, some of them quite extensively. The one major defendant who was not on tape was Carmim Persico, and that's because during many of the events in question, he was a fugitive in another case involving the Colombo family and had been hiding out in the house of his cousin and her husband. Her husband's name was fred D. Christopher, so he didn't have him on tape.

Most of the other defendants had been on tape, some of them quite extensively. The one major defendant who was not on tape was Carmim Persico, and that's because during many of the events in question, he was a fugitive in another case involving the Colombo family and had been hiding out in the house of his cousin and her husband. Her husband's name was fred D. Christopher, so he didn't have him on tape.

Bob family's are notoriously loyal enclosed lipped when it comes to cooperating with police, but apparently even the boss of the family can eventually wear it his welcome.

Bob family's are notoriously loyal enclosed lipped when it comes to cooperating with police, but apparently even the boss of the family can eventually wear it his welcome.

At some point after we indicted the case, Fred De Christopher called the FBI up and basically told them that Persico was being harbored in his wife's house with him and if they wanted him for this outstanding warrant, they could come get him. So they did, they arrested him. Fred's wife, who was Persco's cousin, stayed loyal to Persico and not Fred and of course, at that point, having betrayed Persico to Christopher, went into the witness protection program.

At some point after we indicted the case, Fred De Christopher called the FBI up and basically told them that Persico was being harbored in his wife's house with him and if they wanted him for this outstanding warrant, they could come get him. So they did, they arrested him. Fred's wife, who was Persco's cousin, stayed loyal to Persico and not Fred and of course, at that point, having betrayed Persico to Christopher, went into the witness protection program.

In exchange for his insider knowledge against the Columbo boss. He received a new life far away from New York, as well as a fifty thousand dollars reward for his trouble.

In exchange for his insider knowledge against the Columbo boss. He received a new life far away from New York, as well as a fifty thousand dollars reward for his trouble.

During that time Perscoe was in the house. He was getting evidence about this other organized crime case involving the College family, and he was reviewing it and commenting on it to fred D Christopher and making admissions about various things. So fred Christopher repeated things that Carmen Perscoe had said that were very incriminating, including his involvement with the other bosses and the commission.

During that time Perscoe was in the house. He was getting evidence about this other organized crime case involving the College family, and he was reviewing it and commenting on it to fred D Christopher and making admissions about various things. So fred Christopher repeated things that Carmen Perscoe had said that were very incriminating, including his involvement with the other bosses and the commission.

Persico later called to Christopher's wife to the witness stand in an attempt to both embarrass him and discredit his testimony.

Persico later called to Christopher's wife to the witness stand in an attempt to both embarrass him and discredit his testimony.

Persico got her to say that Freda Christopher was totally deaf and therefore Carmen Persico could not have talked to him about these criminal acts because Freda Christopher could never have heard them because he was deaf. He couldn't hear a thing.

Persico got her to say that Freda Christopher was totally deaf and therefore Carmen Persico could not have talked to him about these criminal acts because Freda Christopher could never have heard them because he was deaf. He couldn't hear a thing.

Michael had the pleasure of dispelling that theory in his cross, complete with some theatrics.

Michael had the pleasure of dispelling that theory in his cross, complete with some theatrics.

I said, so, let me understand your testimony, missus D. Christopher. You're saying that your husband fred is so deaf that he couldn't hear Carmen Persiccoe. She goes, yes, absolutely, And I said, so, like if your husband were sitting where you are in the witness box, and I'm over here at the podium. You're telling me that Fredia Christopher could not hear anything I said. She goes, yes, he wouldn't hear a word you said. And I'm looking at the jurors and they're rolling their eyes. They realized that the defense story that Persco had Fred's wife tell is obviously a lie. And I think that did Perso.

I said, so, let me understand your testimony, missus D. Christopher. You're saying that your husband fred is so deaf that he couldn't hear Carmen Persiccoe. She goes, yes, absolutely, And I said, so, like if your husband were sitting where you are in the witness box, and I'm over here at the podium. You're telling me that Fredia Christopher could not hear anything I said. She goes, yes, he wouldn't hear a word you said. And I'm looking at the jurors and they're rolling their eyes. They realized that the defense story that Persco had Fred's wife tell is obviously a lie. And I think that did Perso.

In the fact was that no matter how hard Persico tried to undermine the Christopher's credibility, the details and the witnesses sworn testimony were very hard to ignore. During direct exam, Michael asked him if Persico ever said anything regarding the assassination of Carmen Galante. The Christopher answered in the affirmative and said that Persico had also admitted the Commission's involvement. He also testified to being with Persico and a Colombo underboss when they received the news that Galanti was dead. Here's part of what he said in court.

In the fact was that no matter how hard Persico tried to undermine the Christopher's credibility, the details and the witnesses sworn testimony were very hard to ignore. During direct exam, Michael asked him if Persico ever said anything regarding the assassination of Carmen Galante. The Christopher answered in the affirmative and said that Persico had also admitted the Commission's involvement. He also testified to being with Persico and a Colombo underboss when they received the news that Galanti was dead. Here's part of what he said in court.

Anthony got on the phone and all of a sudden, a big smile came on his face and he said, well it's over. He hung up, clapped his hands and said, come on, let's go eat something. He asked Russell's sun, what did he get so happy about? And was told you'll read about it tomorrow in the papers.

Anthony got on the phone and all of a sudden, a big smile came on his face and he said, well it's over. He hung up, clapped his hands and said, come on, let's go eat something. He asked Russell's sun, what did he get so happy about? And was told you'll read about it tomorrow in the papers.

De Christopher gave some of the most powerful testimony of the trial. His account read like lines from a gangster movie. But the prosecution also knew that hanging a case on the testimony of an informant, especially one that had been so richly rewarded for his cooperation, carried serious risks. Still, when asked why he had turned on Persico, to Christopher's words seemed to rick true.

De Christopher gave some of the most powerful testimony of the trial. His account read like lines from a gangster movie. But the prosecution also knew that hanging a case on the testimony of an informant, especially one that had been so richly rewarded for his cooperation, carried serious risks. Still, when asked why he had turned on Persico, to Christopher's words seemed to rick true.

I think what they do is despicable. They are the most despicable people on the face of the earth.

I think what they do is despicable. They are the most despicable people on the face of the earth.

It remained to be seen if the jury would believe him. During the commission trial, Bruno and Delocado sat in a defendant seat for his role in the murder of Carma Galante. He was the same man who held a gun to FBI agent Joe Cantamasa's face in the wake of his father Sonny Red's murder, one of the three capos gunned down in nineteen eighty one. Once the prosecution had finished presenting their evidence, the defense began putting on their own case, and they came armed with something up their sleeve. A surprise witness.

It remained to be seen if the jury would believe him. During the commission trial, Bruno and Delocado sat in a defendant seat for his role in the murder of Carma Galante. He was the same man who held a gun to FBI agent Joe Cantamasa's face in the wake of his father Sonny Red's murder, one of the three capos gunned down in nineteen eighty one. Once the prosecution had finished presenting their evidence, the defense began putting on their own case, and they came armed with something up their sleeve. A surprise witness.

So we're sitting there and in walks this woman. Her name was Babe Schroeder. She was in Delocado's.

So we're sitting there and in walks this woman. Her name was Babe Schroeder. She was in Delocado's.

Aunt, Charlotte Lang and her partner Pat Marshall were caught off guard, to say the least, who's.

Aunt, Charlotte Lang and her partner Pat Marshall were caught off guard, to say the least, who's.

I looked at him and be like, I don't know. I looked a pack on. We're all like I don't know.

I looked at him and be like, I don't know. I looked a pack on. We're all like I don't know.

Somehow it seemed that Aunt Babe had eluded the FBI's investigation, which could prove to be a costly mistake because Bruno's aunt was ready to offer her nephew exactly the gift he had been waiting for.

Somehow it seemed that Aunt Babe had eluded the FBI's investigation, which could prove to be a costly mistake because Bruno's aunt was ready to offer her nephew exactly the gift he had been waiting for.

She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved because he was with me all that day, so she was the alibi that they were able to dig.

She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved because he was with me all that day, so she was the alibi that they were able to dig.

Up without evidence to disprove her testimony. The prosecution's case against in Dellacado might collapse.

Up without evidence to disprove her testimony. The prosecution's case against in Dellacado might collapse.

And for some reason, I turned and I looked at the back of a courtroom which was like standing room only to say the least, and there was an agent from the Columbus squad who I knew really well, and he was kind of like jumping up and down and waving at me to come back. So I did. I got up and I walked to the back and he said, we have her on tapes trying to start in the airlines.

And for some reason, I turned and I looked at the back of a courtroom which was like standing room only to say the least, and there was an agent from the Columbus squad who I knew really well, and he was kind of like jumping up and down and waving at me to come back. So I did. I got up and I walked to the back and he said, we have her on tapes trying to start in the airlines.

The FBI team in charge of the Colombo family knew all about ant Babe. In fact, they even had the proof that she had lied in other criminal cases.

The FBI team in charge of the Colombo family knew all about ant Babe. In fact, they even had the proof that she had lied in other criminal cases.

So I came back and it was close to lunchtime and I went over to Churchtov and it whispered in his ear. I said, the Columbo family has tapes of ant Babe committing crimes. And so Turtoff jumped up and said, you're Onnrina. We'd like to break for lunch. And so I went over to the office got the tapes from this particular agent. This was like a masterpiece. That afternoon, I said to Churtoff, if you go on to sit on the Supreme Court, your best moment will be the cross examination of ant Babe.

So I came back and it was close to lunchtime and I went over to Churchtov and it whispered in his ear. I said, the Columbo family has tapes of ant Babe committing crimes. And so Turtoff jumped up and said, you're Onnrina. We'd like to break for lunch. And so I went over to the office got the tapes from this particular agent. This was like a masterpiece. That afternoon, I said to Churtoff, if you go on to sit on the Supreme Court, your best moment will be the cross examination of ant Babe.

Turns out that the defensive surprise witness was no match for Michael or the truth.

Turns out that the defensive surprise witness was no match for Michael or the truth.

He just took her apart. We thought she was going to faint because she kept taking a piece of paper and using it as a fan. She was sweating, she was nervous, and the judge she kept on saying do you want to take a break? Church Off would say, now, ma'am, just wait a second, take a deep breath. But he caught her in every lie.

He just took her apart. We thought she was going to faint because she kept taking a piece of paper and using it as a fan. She was sweating, she was nervous, and the judge she kept on saying do you want to take a break? Church Off would say, now, ma'am, just wait a second, take a deep breath. But he caught her in every lie.

And she ended up utterly flummixed on the stand. I think she ended up taking the fifth. It was a devastating cross and it was just something that sort of fell into our lap.

And she ended up utterly flummixed on the stand. I think she ended up taking the fifth. It was a devastating cross and it was just something that sort of fell into our lap.

The defense was pulling out every trick in the book to try and discredit even the smallest points in the government's case. But time after time, Michael, John and Gil were prepared, and it turns out they were capable of dropping bombshells.

The defense was pulling out every trick in the book to try and discredit even the smallest points in the government's case. But time after time, Michael, John and Gil were prepared, and it turns out they were capable of dropping bombshells.

Up their own.

Up their own.

Prosecutors tonight are pushing ahead in their bid to break the back of organized crime in New York. Charles Feldman takes a look at today's proceedings in court.

Prosecutors tonight are pushing ahead in their bid to break the back of organized crime in New York. Charles Feldman takes a look at today's proceedings in court.

His name is joe Cantaloupo, a self confessed former hood in the Colombo crime family.

His name is joe Cantaloupo, a self confessed former hood in the Colombo crime family.

Again, here's John Savay's.

Again, here's John Savay's.

Old guy named Joey Cantalupo, who was another mob figure who we had convinced to testify.

Old guy named Joey Cantalupo, who was another mob figure who we had convinced to testify.

Now a government witness. Catalupo testified that after pulling off various crimes, he had to pay a big percentage of the take to Carmine Persico and his brother Alphons.

Now a government witness. Catalupo testified that after pulling off various crimes, he had to pay a big percentage of the take to Carmine Persico and his brother Alphons.

He helped to fill out sort of the understanding of what the mob was, what role the Commission played in the mob.

He helped to fill out sort of the understanding of what the mob was, what role the Commission played in the mob.

Joe Cantalupo had been a trusted associate of the Columbos four years, and he had been privy to countless crimes, schemes and even murder plots. Carmine Persico was said to have trusted Cantalupo with his life, but unfortunately for the Colombo boss, Cantalupo was also an informant for the FBI, and his testimony in court proved devastating. Cantalupo had later agreed to wear a wire to other mob meetings, the audio of which was played during the trial. But the most dramatic part of Cantalupo's testimony came when Carmine Persico approached the stand to begin his cross examination. Persico could barely contain his contempt for the man who had betrayed him and his organization. In his effort to undercut Cantalupo. Persico even went so far as to say that his testimony was all just payback for getting beaten up by Persico's brother a fight that had occurred decades before, and once again the prosecutor sat quietly with that objection and gave Persico the rope he needed to help convict himself. Eventually, the defense rested their case. It was time for each side to deliver their summations.

Joe Cantalupo had been a trusted associate of the Columbos four years, and he had been privy to countless crimes, schemes and even murder plots. Carmine Persico was said to have trusted Cantalupo with his life, but unfortunately for the Colombo boss, Cantalupo was also an informant for the FBI, and his testimony in court proved devastating. Cantalupo had later agreed to wear a wire to other mob meetings, the audio of which was played during the trial. But the most dramatic part of Cantalupo's testimony came when Carmine Persico approached the stand to begin his cross examination. Persico could barely contain his contempt for the man who had betrayed him and his organization. In his effort to undercut Cantalupo. Persico even went so far as to say that his testimony was all just payback for getting beaten up by Persico's brother a fight that had occurred decades before, and once again the prosecutor sat quietly with that objection and gave Persico the rope he needed to help convict himself. Eventually, the defense rested their case. It was time for each side to deliver their summations.

Two summations, right, there's initial summation by the government, then there are defense summations, then there's a rebuttal summation. John Savae did the initial summation by the government, which, as I recall, was about four hours long. There were the eight defense summations, and then Mike turned off to the rebuttal summation.

Two summations, right, there's initial summation by the government, then there are defense summations, then there's a rebuttal summation. John Savae did the initial summation by the government, which, as I recall, was about four hours long. There were the eight defense summations, and then Mike turned off to the rebuttal summation.

John Savaye would be first up, followed by the defense.

John Savaye would be first up, followed by the defense.

It was a huge effort, major undertaking. You've got to embrace the entirety of the record. You've got to weave the evidence together with the law so that the jury will understand.

It was a huge effort, major undertaking. You've got to embrace the entirety of the record. You've got to weave the evidence together with the law so that the jury will understand.

And in a case this complicated, it required not just a mastery of the material, but confidence, clarity, and poise.

And in a case this complicated, it required not just a mastery of the material, but confidence, clarity, and poise.

I would be lying if I told you I was just completely cool, calm and collected. That's what I was on the outside, obviously, but inside I was very nervous and had you know that kind of jittery feeling anyone feels, an all trial lawyers feel when they're getting up to do something important, and this was especially so. You know, the courtroom was entirely packed with press, audience was full. There were a lot of folks who were from the US Attorney's office there to watch the summation. My wife was there, so I very much felt the world is watching what I'm about to do.

I would be lying if I told you I was just completely cool, calm and collected. That's what I was on the outside, obviously, but inside I was very nervous and had you know that kind of jittery feeling anyone feels, an all trial lawyers feel when they're getting up to do something important, and this was especially so. You know, the courtroom was entirely packed with press, audience was full. There were a lot of folks who were from the US Attorney's office there to watch the summation. My wife was there, so I very much felt the world is watching what I'm about to do.

And so John began the summation that would hopefully sense the fate of the American Mafia.

And so John began the summation that would hopefully sense the fate of the American Mafia.

The most important thing that you're trying to do is really connect with each of the jurors. They infiltrated and controlled an entire industry in New York City, the concrete construction industry. You want to make eye contact with them. Part of the power of the Commission is how they control the family through enormous and unique accumulated power. You want to feel that you are coming through to them from your heart and your mind and explaining this complicated case to them, all non lawyers in a way that they can understand and digest and take in. The time has come to place the responsibility for these crimes exactly where it belongs. The government asks you to lay that responsibility at the feet of these men.

The most important thing that you're trying to do is really connect with each of the jurors. They infiltrated and controlled an entire industry in New York City, the concrete construction industry. You want to make eye contact with them. Part of the power of the Commission is how they control the family through enormous and unique accumulated power. You want to feel that you are coming through to them from your heart and your mind and explaining this complicated case to them, all non lawyers in a way that they can understand and digest and take in. The time has come to place the responsibility for these crimes exactly where it belongs. The government asks you to lay that responsibility at the feet of these men.

John addressed the jury with the evidence, also acknowledging their courage, sacrifice, and willingness to absorb the complicated details of the government's case. In the end, it was a story of greed, violence, and hopefully justice. When he came to the end of his remarks, the most consequential summation in his young career, there was no rapturous applause or flurry of congratulatory backslaps, just as shuffling of notes as he returned to his seat. People just don't even realize. I always just say, like, does the jury see my hand shaking as I drink that water? Because I had to have it a drinking water before I'd give a summation. I was like, do they see the shake in my hand?

John addressed the jury with the evidence, also acknowledging their courage, sacrifice, and willingness to absorb the complicated details of the government's case. In the end, it was a story of greed, violence, and hopefully justice. When he came to the end of his remarks, the most consequential summation in his young career, there was no rapturous applause or flurry of congratulatory backslaps, just as shuffling of notes as he returned to his seat. People just don't even realize. I always just say, like, does the jury see my hand shaking as I drink that water? Because I had to have it a drinking water before I'd give a summation. I was like, do they see the shake in my hand?

Right now?

Right now?

Exactly? We knew there was more to come, you know, then the defense gets its chance to sum up, and then we have our rebuttals, and then you have the jury instructions and jury deliberations. I knew even after we finished the main summation that we still had much more time to go.

Exactly? We knew there was more to come, you know, then the defense gets its chance to sum up, and then we have our rebuttals, and then you have the jury instructions and jury deliberations. I knew even after we finished the main summation that we still had much more time to go.

It was a monumental trial, and the nation was watching. Never before had the seemingly untouchable bosses been assembled to answer such a litany of serious charges, and now it was time to face the music. Each defense team would make their final plea for acquittal. Suspence hung over the courtroom like a storm cloud as defense lawyers approached the jury to begin their summations, which, as Michael points out, were wildly and consistent from their thin explanations for shady business practices to outrite denials of individual crimes.

It was a monumental trial, and the nation was watching. Never before had the seemingly untouchable bosses been assembled to answer such a litany of serious charges, and now it was time to face the music. Each defense team would make their final plea for acquittal. Suspence hung over the courtroom like a storm cloud as defense lawyers approached the jury to begin their summations, which, as Michael points out, were wildly and consistent from their thin explanations for shady business practices to outrite denials of individual crimes.

Interestingly, the defendants chose to admit it there is a mafia because the evidence on tape was so clear you would have looked silly not to and they tried to defend based on well, there wasn't really an extortion the so called victims really wanted to pay because it was bid rigging.

Interestingly, the defendants chose to admit it there is a mafia because the evidence on tape was so clear you would have looked silly not to and they tried to defend based on well, there wasn't really an extortion the so called victims really wanted to pay because it was bid rigging.

With this one crucial admission that the mafia was real, and they called the shots. Salerno, Corrallo and many of their assembled underbosses looked resigned to their fates.

With this one crucial admission that the mafia was real, and they called the shots. Salerno, Corrallo and many of their assembled underbosses looked resigned to their fates.

The exception to that Persigo who claimed that fred De Christopher Lyde and you know again that he was deaf, and Percuco said he wasn't on any tapes and there was no photographic evidence, so he could not have been involved in any of this because there was no direct physical or tangible reverences involvement.

The exception to that Persigo who claimed that fred De Christopher Lyde and you know again that he was deaf, and Percuco said he wasn't on any tapes and there was no photographic evidence, so he could not have been involved in any of this because there was no direct physical or tangible reverences involvement.

Right up to the end, Persico aimed to place spoiler to the government's case, and by singling himself out, he made it clear that he was willing to throw his criminal colleagues under the bus if it meant his own acquittal. But the prosecution was not ready to let him off easy.

Right up to the end, Persico aimed to place spoiler to the government's case, and by singling himself out, he made it clear that he was willing to throw his criminal colleagues under the bus if it meant his own acquittal. But the prosecution was not ready to let him off easy.

We obviously at the time, were taking careful note. And then Michael got up and did a masterful rebuttal, marching through each of the counter theories that the defense had advanced.

We obviously at the time, were taking careful note. And then Michael got up and did a masterful rebuttal, marching through each of the counter theories that the defense had advanced.

Not only did the jury need the courage to do what the law required, but the courage to do what no jury had ever done before convict the commission.

Not only did the jury need the courage to do what the law required, but the courage to do what no jury had ever done before convict the commission.

Part of what both Michael did in his rebuttal and I did in the main summation was to ask the jurors to sort of imagine being in their shoes and being threatened in the way that they were, and what that would have felt like had it been happening to you.

Part of what both Michael did in his rebuttal and I did in the main summation was to ask the jurors to sort of imagine being in their shoes and being threatened in the way that they were, and what that would have felt like had it been happening to you.

After the judge's charge, the jury of twelve New York citizens adjourned to delivery, and for both sides there was nothing left to do. Except wait for a verdict. Here's Gil Childers.

After the judge's charge, the jury of twelve New York citizens adjourned to delivery, and for both sides there was nothing left to do. Except wait for a verdict. Here's Gil Childers.

Once that jury charge happens from the judge, you are absolutely out of control. You have no more levers of control to exercise. I've always experienced a little bit of relief that my job is done. I've done everything I can. Now it's just wait and see. But also the most anxious moments, because now you're on tinderhooks waiting for twelve people whose names you don't even know, are going to issue a verdict which is either going to validate several years of your life or render it meaningless and render you and your efforts of failure. And there's nothing more you can say about it.

Once that jury charge happens from the judge, you are absolutely out of control. You have no more levers of control to exercise. I've always experienced a little bit of relief that my job is done. I've done everything I can. Now it's just wait and see. But also the most anxious moments, because now you're on tinderhooks waiting for twelve people whose names you don't even know, are going to issue a verdict which is either going to validate several years of your life or render it meaningless and render you and your efforts of failure. And there's nothing more you can say about it.

As reporters assembled outside the courtroom waiting for a word of a verdict, jury deliberations stretched from four days to five and then six, and anxiety in the prosecutor's office grew by the hour.

As reporters assembled outside the courtroom waiting for a word of a verdict, jury deliberations stretched from four days to five and then six, and anxiety in the prosecutor's office grew by the hour.

You want them to take their time, but you don't want them to take too long. Goes into day three. You know, well, okay, I'm still confident in the case. But goes into the day four. Jeez, did we screw up somehow? What's going on?

You want them to take their time, but you don't want them to take too long. Goes into day three. You know, well, okay, I'm still confident in the case. But goes into the day four. Jeez, did we screw up somehow? What's going on?

Periodically they would send out notes asking for some aspect of the instructions to be reread or to see some evidence, and it was hard to discern from those moments where they were heading, what they were thinking. And obviously all of that is happening in secret. Through those five days, we didn't really know what was going to happen. And then finally we were in the office and got a message that there was a verdict and that we bet our head to the courtroom right away, and we trooped in and the press was alerted to that fact, so the entire courtroom quickly filled up.

Periodically they would send out notes asking for some aspect of the instructions to be reread or to see some evidence, and it was hard to discern from those moments where they were heading, what they were thinking. And obviously all of that is happening in secret. Through those five days, we didn't really know what was going to happen. And then finally we were in the office and got a message that there was a verdict and that we bet our head to the courtroom right away, and we trooped in and the press was alerted to that fact, so the entire courtroom quickly filled up.

Presiding Federal Judge Richard Owen solemnly stepped onto the bench and invited the jurors into the courtroom. According to John Savay's his face betrayed nothing.

Presiding Federal Judge Richard Owen solemnly stepped onto the bench and invited the jurors into the courtroom. According to John Savay's his face betrayed nothing.

Four lady of the jury stood up, and she was sort of shaking with emotion. She knew that what she was about to render was a very momentous verdict. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

Four lady of the jury stood up, and she was sort of shaking with emotion. She knew that what she was about to render was a very momentous verdict. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

Seven women and five men returned guilty verdicts against eight defendants, including three godfathers of mafia families.

Seven women and five men returned guilty verdicts against eight defendants, including three godfathers of mafia families.

Once everyone was convicted on cent one, which is a racketurning conspiracy, we knew we were home free. And then everybody was convicted on everything. There was a lot of guilty, guilty, guilty.

Once everyone was convicted on cent one, which is a racketurning conspiracy, we knew we were home free. And then everybody was convicted on everything. There was a lot of guilty, guilty, guilty.

It was over one hundred guilties uttered by the four.

It was over one hundred guilties uttered by the four.

For the first time, the government proved in court that since nineteen thirty one, the rules and regulations of the mafia have been set by a ruling elite comprised of the heads of New York's mob families.

For the first time, the government proved in court that since nineteen thirty one, the rules and regulations of the mafia have been set by a ruling elite comprised of the heads of New York's mob families.

We were obviously ecstatic, but also doing our best to kind of keep a poker face and just listen. The jury was polled, they were all unanimous. They were excused with the thanks of the court, and when they were finally out of earshot, Michael Gill and I all had a gigantic hug.

We were obviously ecstatic, but also doing our best to kind of keep a poker face and just listen. The jury was polled, they were all unanimous. They were excused with the thanks of the court, and when they were finally out of earshot, Michael Gill and I all had a gigantic hug.

We did it.

We did it.

We had done it exactly well.

We had done it exactly well.

Here in New York today, after five days of the liberation, on anonymous federal court jury convicted three crime bosses of serving on the so called Mafia Commission. Five lower ranking mob figures were also convicted on all counts while carrying out the commission's porters. Authorities had contended since nineteen thirties that organized crime had a national board of directors carving our territory and settling disputes. Now an FBI man says that all the members are either in the grave or had it to prison.

Here in New York today, after five days of the liberation, on anonymous federal court jury convicted three crime bosses of serving on the so called Mafia Commission. Five lower ranking mob figures were also convicted on all counts while carrying out the commission's porters. Authorities had contended since nineteen thirties that organized crime had a national board of directors carving our territory and settling disputes. Now an FBI man says that all the members are either in the grave or had it to prison.

The jury also convicted Anthony and Delocado of helping to kill mafia godfather Carmine Galante in nineteen seventy nine. It is believed to be the first time anyone has been brought to justice in this country for the slaying of a mafia boss.

The jury also convicted Anthony and Delocado of helping to kill mafia godfather Carmine Galante in nineteen seventy nine. It is believed to be the first time anyone has been brought to justice in this country for the slaying of a mafia boss.

The sentences that the defendants now faced were daunting.

The sentences that the defendants now faced were daunting.

Seven of the mob biggies convicted here today face more than three hundred years of jail time each. Anthony and Delocado could get a forty year sentence for his role as one of three trigger men who rubbed out Carmine Galente and two others back in nineteen seventy nine.

Seven of the mob biggies convicted here today face more than three hundred years of jail time each. Anthony and Delocado could get a forty year sentence for his role as one of three trigger men who rubbed out Carmine Galente and two others back in nineteen seventy nine.

Once the verdict came in, and for some period of time afterwards, while the glow of success was still around. One of the things I wasn't expecting was the thank yous that I got from various people in law enforcement, from people I knew well to agents I didn't know. Was incredibly touching every time it happened.

Once the verdict came in, and for some period of time afterwards, while the glow of success was still around. One of the things I wasn't expecting was the thank yous that I got from various people in law enforcement, from people I knew well to agents I didn't know. Was incredibly touching every time it happened.

Long the common collected face of the prosecution team, Michael admits that he too felt an enormous sense of relief.

Long the common collected face of the prosecution team, Michael admits that he too felt an enormous sense of relief.

Because the stakes were very high. We'd been entrusted as young lawyers with this major case. We didn't want to let anybody down. And I think we had an enormous sense of just Wow, we're relieved, and we're just over joy that we've survived this.

Because the stakes were very high. We'd been entrusted as young lawyers with this major case. We didn't want to let anybody down. And I think we had an enormous sense of just Wow, we're relieved, and we're just over joy that we've survived this.

As John explains, the success of the Commission case rested on the enormous body of investigative work that had been assembled over the course of not just years, but decades.

As John explains, the success of the Commission case rested on the enormous body of investigative work that had been assembled over the course of not just years, but decades.

Long before Michael Gill and I got up in court, this huge amount of work had been done. And you know, if you think about it, the bravery of the agents who stole into a social club or who figured out a way to get into the home of a mob boss and get a bug up and running is incredible. They were the ones on the front line doing those very dangerous things. They're the ones who are doing the laborious task of surveillance and tracking people down and taking photographs at just the right moment that we then are later able to use and weave together into the narrative that we told in the courtroom.

Long before Michael Gill and I got up in court, this huge amount of work had been done. And you know, if you think about it, the bravery of the agents who stole into a social club or who figured out a way to get into the home of a mob boss and get a bug up and running is incredible. They were the ones on the front line doing those very dangerous things. They're the ones who are doing the laborious task of surveillance and tracking people down and taking photographs at just the right moment that we then are later able to use and weave together into the narrative that we told in the courtroom.

As for Carmine Persico, his gamble to act as his own attorney and go it alone, it came up snake eyes.

As for Carmine Persico, his gamble to act as his own attorney and go it alone, it came up snake eyes.

Colombo family boss Carmine Persico Junior may have been the one to suffer most today. Earlier this week, he was sentenced to thirty nine years in prison on a previous racket's conviction. Persico couldn't even blame today's conviction on his lawyer, since the mobster chose to act as his own attorney.

Colombo family boss Carmine Persico Junior may have been the one to suffer most today. Earlier this week, he was sentenced to thirty nine years in prison on a previous racket's conviction. Persico couldn't even blame today's conviction on his lawyer, since the mobster chose to act as his own attorney.

Throughout the trial, each of the secutors reflected on what this case meant to them and how it was a game changer for their professional lives.

Throughout the trial, each of the secutors reflected on what this case meant to them and how it was a game changer for their professional lives.

Obviously, it takes a certain amount of self confidence to stand in front of a jury and present a case, and it was fulfilling from a professional standpoint, But to do a case of historic importance that thirty five years later plus we're still talking about.

Obviously, it takes a certain amount of self confidence to stand in front of a jury and present a case, and it was fulfilling from a professional standpoint, But to do a case of historic importance that thirty five years later plus we're still talking about.

It, It was absolutely thrilling as a young lawyer to work on a case that was as momentous as this case.

It, It was absolutely thrilling as a young lawyer to work on a case that was as momentous as this case.

It really was a revolutionary moment in my career development, and probably John and Gills as well.

It really was a revolutionary moment in my career development, and probably John and Gills as well.

The effect this verdict had on countless people in New York City as a whole was clear.

The effect this verdict had on countless people in New York City as a whole was clear.

I think it showed the American justice system functioning well and justice getting done their.

I think it showed the American justice system functioning well and justice getting done their.

Work on this case also bonded the men. Friendships reformed that have lasted to this day.

Work on this case also bonded the men. Friendships reformed that have lasted to this day.

We've all remained friends ever since. You couldn't possibly have asked for better colleagues. Incredibly talented lawyers, crazy smart and lovely people into the bargain. So I was a very, very very lucky guy that I got to work with both of them.

We've all remained friends ever since. You couldn't possibly have asked for better colleagues. Incredibly talented lawyers, crazy smart and lovely people into the bargain. So I was a very, very very lucky guy that I got to work with both of them.

The impact on organized crime was swift. First and foremost, the mob lost its longtime leaders.

The impact on organized crime was swift. First and foremost, the mob lost its longtime leaders.

I think it's going to take a long time to replace the kind of the network that these men put together. I mean, these men had personal relationships and experience going back over decades, which was a kind of they were kind of gray eminences of the mob, and they're just hopefully won't be people like that out on the street now that can pull this mafia together.

I think it's going to take a long time to replace the kind of the network that these men put together. I mean, these men had personal relationships and experience going back over decades, which was a kind of they were kind of gray eminences of the mob, and they're just hopefully won't be people like that out on the street now that can pull this mafia together.

It removed much of the more sophisticated leadership of the American mafia, and so then the mantle began to fall to people who were less sophisticated, less strategy.

It removed much of the more sophisticated leadership of the American mafia, and so then the mantle began to fall to people who were less sophisticated, less strategy.

But like with the fall of any empire, defeat can breed chaos, and in the aftermath of the Commission case, law enforcement nationwide braced itself for the inevitable wave of violence. The surviving members of the mafia were about to fight for control within the weakened organization.

But like with the fall of any empire, defeat can breed chaos, and in the aftermath of the Commission case, law enforcement nationwide braced itself for the inevitable wave of violence. The surviving members of the mafia were about to fight for control within the weakened organization.

Law enforcement officials say there is now a power vacuum at the top of Lacos and Astra, with all of its old leaders either in jail or engraves. A great deal of turmoil is expected as other mafia dons struggled to take control of the mob.

Law enforcement officials say there is now a power vacuum at the top of Lacos and Astra, with all of its old leaders either in jail or engraves. A great deal of turmoil is expected as other mafia dons struggled to take control of the mob.

In other words, the mob was severely wounded, but it wasn't yet dead, and it wasn't long before what was left of the Five families found its footing once more, and a new crop of leaders made their play for the top spots.

In other words, the mob was severely wounded, but it wasn't yet dead, and it wasn't long before what was left of the Five families found its footing once more, and a new crop of leaders made their play for the top spots.

The mafia is run as if it were a law large business, which it is. That means new people will take over the posts vacated by senior members who are they.

The mafia is run as if it were a law large business, which it is. That means new people will take over the posts vacated by senior members who are they.

The battle for New York Streets was far from over.

The battle for New York Streets was far from over.

Like Rudy said, to kill a snake, you got to take the head off. That's what basically the commission case did. But then, of course Gotti filled in for Castellano.

Like Rudy said, to kill a snake, you got to take the head off. That's what basically the commission case did. But then, of course Gotti filled in for Castellano.

John Gotti was an ambitious underboss poised to take control of the Gambino crime family after the murder of Paul Castellano with his designer suits and million watt smile. The teflon Don was a boss for a new era in the American mafia, as comfortable on the front pages of the newspaper as he was in the back rooms of Little Italy. His rival Vincent Gigante, who would take a much different approach to being a crime boss than his high profile competitor.

John Gotti was an ambitious underboss poised to take control of the Gambino crime family after the murder of Paul Castellano with his designer suits and million watt smile. The teflon Don was a boss for a new era in the American mafia, as comfortable on the front pages of the newspaper as he was in the back rooms of Little Italy. His rival Vincent Gigante, who would take a much different approach to being a crime boss than his high profile competitor.

He was famous for not saying anything orally because he didn't want to be recorded. You know, he would walk around pretending to be mentally deranged, would not say anything in a place where it could be recorded, like in a building. But there's a view that emerged even after our trial that he was actually the power in the General's filming, that Salerno was kind of the front man.

He was famous for not saying anything orally because he didn't want to be recorded. You know, he would walk around pretending to be mentally deranged, would not say anything in a place where it could be recorded, like in a building. But there's a view that emerged even after our trial that he was actually the power in the General's filming, that Salerno was kind of the front man.

They called him Vincent the Chin. But despite his eccentric behavior, there was a growing suspicion that Giganty was actually the brains behind the whole operation.

They called him Vincent the Chin. But despite his eccentric behavior, there was a growing suspicion that Giganty was actually the brains behind the whole operation.

Next time on Law and Order, Criminal justice system.

Next time on Law and Order, Criminal justice system.

Who are these guys that fooled the United States government?

Who are these guys that fooled the United States government?

The Genevie's family, They were secret of these people would tell you if your hair was on fire.

The Genevie's family, They were secret of these people would tell you if your hair was on fire.

I made recordings where they wouldn't say his name, where they would refer to chin gigante by just putting their finger to their chin.

I made recordings where they wouldn't say his name, where they would refer to chin gigante by just putting their finger to their chin.

The fact that he missed my father should have been a dead man, because if someone screws something like that up, there's no room for them to stay.

The fact that he missed my father should have been a dead man, because if someone screws something like that up, there's no room for them to stay.

Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anna Sega Nicolazi. This episode was written by Trevor Young and Anna Sega Nicolazzi. Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young and Chandler Mays, and producers Jesse Funk, Nooms Griffin, and Rima el Kali. This season is executive produced by Anna Seagan Nicolazzi, Story producer Walker Lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn Townlage and Lukes. Dance. Editing and sound designed by Jesse Funk. Original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, Additional music by Steve Moore and additional voice over by me Steve Zernklton. Special thanks to Fox five in New York ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.

Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anna Sega Nicolazi. This episode was written by Trevor Young and Anna Sega Nicolazzi. Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young and Chandler Mays, and producers Jesse Funk, Nooms Griffin, and Rima el Kali. This season is executive produced by Anna Seagan Nicolazzi, Story producer Walker Lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn Townlage and Lukes. Dance. Editing and sound designed by Jesse Funk. Original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, Additional music by Steve Moore and additional voice over by me Steve Zernklton. Special thanks to Fox five in New York ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.