You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts.

You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts.

In the criminal justice system, landmark trials transcend the courtroom to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select group that is defined American history. These are their stories. December sixteenth, nineteen eighty five, Midtown, Manhattan.

In the criminal justice system, landmark trials transcend the courtroom to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select group that is defined American history. These are their stories. December sixteenth, nineteen eighty five, Midtown, Manhattan.

The bullets that ended Big Paul Castellano's life last night may very well have been a payoff for getting into such trouble with the Feds.

The bullets that ended Big Paul Castellano's life last night may very well have been a payoff for getting into such trouble with the Feds.

I was there that night, the night that he was murdered.

I was there that night, the night that he was murdered.

Former FBI agent Jim Kostler was meeting with Bob Blakey and Rudy Giuliani at an event at NYU. The topic of conversation the biggest criminal trial against organized crime. I'm in New York City history.

Former FBI agent Jim Kostler was meeting with Bob Blakey and Rudy Giuliani at an event at NYU. The topic of conversation the biggest criminal trial against organized crime. I'm in New York City history.

We were having the cocktails and it was all kinds of brass from the NYPD and various district attorney's offices there, and all of a sudden.

We were having the cocktails and it was all kinds of brass from the NYPD and various district attorney's offices there, and all of a sudden.

Bells go off and beepers go off. I get it called.

Bells go off and beepers go off. I get it called.

You know, Costellano has been murdered up at the Sparks Steakhouse.

You know, Costellano has been murdered up at the Sparks Steakhouse.

Paul Castellano was the reputed boss of the Gambino crime family and one of the most important defendants in the upcoming case against the mob.

Paul Castellano was the reputed boss of the Gambino crime family and one of the most important defendants in the upcoming case against the mob.

So I grabbed my boss and we get in the car and we go up there. We missed the dinner. We were right there in the thick of things. Whenever the bodies were still laying on the street. Tommy Billotti was laying out in the middle of the street. Castellana was laying with his head down in the gutter right next to the car. People everywhere, because you know, it was at five o'clock at night and people were going home. It was chaos.

So I grabbed my boss and we get in the car and we go up there. We missed the dinner. We were right there in the thick of things. Whenever the bodies were still laying on the street. Tommy Billotti was laying out in the middle of the street. Castellana was laying with his head down in the gutter right next to the car. People everywhere, because you know, it was at five o'clock at night and people were going home. It was chaos.

As the reputed head of the crime Commission and the godfather of the Gambino family, his appearance in court every day and the preoccupation with his defense were bad for business.

As the reputed head of the crime Commission and the godfather of the Gambino family, his appearance in court every day and the preoccupation with his defense were bad for business.

Yes, the evidence accumulated against Castellano was a lynchpin in the government's case, but his murder might turn it all upside down.

Yes, the evidence accumulated against Castellano was a lynchpin in the government's case, but his murder might turn it all upside down.

You're not with the mob because you want to be.

You're not with the mob because you want to be.

It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated.

It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated.

On if you like your life, you will vote to acquit.

On if you like your life, you will vote to acquit.

I'm anisee and Nicolazzi, my father should have been a dead man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is Law and Order criminal justice system. It had taken years to assemble the case against the Commission. Now, just months before the trial was set to begin, a key defendant, Paul Castellano, had been gunned down in the street, a stark reminder of the high stay for both the criminals and those prosecuting their crimes. Paul Castellano and his newly appointed underboss, Thomas Bollotti, had just pulled up in front of Sparks Steakhouse for dinner. They were about to get out of their car when assassins opened fire from close range, killing both Castellano and Ballotti.

I'm anisee and Nicolazzi, my father should have been a dead man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is Law and Order criminal justice system. It had taken years to assemble the case against the Commission. Now, just months before the trial was set to begin, a key defendant, Paul Castellano, had been gunned down in the street, a stark reminder of the high stay for both the criminals and those prosecuting their crimes. Paul Castellano and his newly appointed underboss, Thomas Bollotti, had just pulled up in front of Sparks Steakhouse for dinner. They were about to get out of their car when assassins opened fire from close range, killing both Castellano and Ballotti.

And obviously that ended his participation in the trial.

And obviously that ended his participation in the trial.

Michael Cherdoff was the lead prosecutor, just thirty two years old at the time and facing off against the most infamous figures in organized crime. Michael immediately knew the effect Castellano's murder could have on their case. There were mountains of evidence connecting the Gambino boss to the wider criminal enterprise of the Commission, but all that evidence was now potentially out the window. The prosecution needed to regroup and fast.

Michael Cherdoff was the lead prosecutor, just thirty two years old at the time and facing off against the most infamous figures in organized crime. Michael immediately knew the effect Castellano's murder could have on their case. There were mountains of evidence connecting the Gambino boss to the wider criminal enterprise of the Commission, but all that evidence was now potentially out the window. The prosecution needed to regroup and fast.

We had to really make sure that we kicked the tires on everything and it was all solid, and that kind of nervousness and anxiety is a great motivator in terms of making sure you are doubling down on how careful and how meticulous you are in both the factual and illegal construction of the case.

We had to really make sure that we kicked the tires on everything and it was all solid, and that kind of nervousness and anxiety is a great motivator in terms of making sure you are doubling down on how careful and how meticulous you are in both the factual and illegal construction of the case.

There were three main goals in this trial, and it wasn't going to be easy. One prove that the Mafia and the Commission existed in the first place. Remember, for decades, members of organized crime had dismissed the Mafia as a myth, but now Michael had the receipts in the form of wire tabs and testimony from cooperating witnesses. Two, Michael and his young team of attorneys had to prove it the remaining defendants, including Fat Tony Salerno, Tony Dux, Carlo Carmine Persico, and some of their underlings, were indeed members of the Mob's governing body, or that they conspired to carry out its orders. And three, that their illegal influence included the control of major industries like concrete, construction and sanitation. Owen one more thing, to prove the Commission conspired to murder fellow mob boss Carmen Gallanti. Taken together, it was a massive undertaking, especially considering that there was no one on the prosecution team over the age of thirty two, and they were up against the elder statesman of the mafia crime bosses that had collectively spent over one hundred and fifty years in organized crime. But as Michael explains, they had assembled mounds of damning evidence.

There were three main goals in this trial, and it wasn't going to be easy. One prove that the Mafia and the Commission existed in the first place. Remember, for decades, members of organized crime had dismissed the Mafia as a myth, but now Michael had the receipts in the form of wire tabs and testimony from cooperating witnesses. Two, Michael and his young team of attorneys had to prove it the remaining defendants, including Fat Tony Salerno, Tony Dux, Carlo Carmine Persico, and some of their underlings, were indeed members of the Mob's governing body, or that they conspired to carry out its orders. And three, that their illegal influence included the control of major industries like concrete, construction and sanitation. Owen one more thing, to prove the Commission conspired to murder fellow mob boss Carmen Gallanti. Taken together, it was a massive undertaking, especially considering that there was no one on the prosecution team over the age of thirty two, and they were up against the elder statesman of the mafia crime bosses that had collectively spent over one hundred and fifty years in organized crime. But as Michael explains, they had assembled mounds of damning evidence.

We had witnesses, including a couple of contractors who had paid the mob because they were required to, and they kind of put a human face on what this was. We had the tapes which had very explicit discussions about shaking down contractors and getting money for concrete projects. We also had a former boss of the Cleveland La co Osnostra family named Angelo Leonardo, who had been convicted in another case years before it had turned state's evidence and was cooperating with us. So we had multiple levels of evidence, and by tying them all together and showing how they cross referenced, that gives you a good measure of credibility.

We had witnesses, including a couple of contractors who had paid the mob because they were required to, and they kind of put a human face on what this was. We had the tapes which had very explicit discussions about shaking down contractors and getting money for concrete projects. We also had a former boss of the Cleveland La co Osnostra family named Angelo Leonardo, who had been convicted in another case years before it had turned state's evidence and was cooperating with us. So we had multiple levels of evidence, and by tying them all together and showing how they cross referenced, that gives you a good measure of credibility.

But as Paul Castelano's murder proved, there were no guarantees.

But as Paul Castelano's murder proved, there were no guarantees.

Well, you're most nervous about are the witnesses. Are the witnesses going to wind up being able to tell a coherent story? Are they going to wither under cross examination? Are they going to be able to stand up?

Well, you're most nervous about are the witnesses. Are the witnesses going to wind up being able to tell a coherent story? Are they going to wither under cross examination? Are they going to be able to stand up?

And are they even going to stay alive long enough to testify?

And are they even going to stay alive long enough to testify?

Virtually no one who wanted to be a witness in this case, as you can imagine.

Virtually no one who wanted to be a witness in this case, as you can imagine.

That's Attorney Gil Childers, the Brooklyn prosecutor that had been called in to help try some of the world's most dangerous gangsters.

That's Attorney Gil Childers, the Brooklyn prosecutor that had been called in to help try some of the world's most dangerous gangsters.

Even if it's the most innocuous testimony, who wants to possibly get any of these people mad at you? There was a lot of hand holding, a lot of cajoling, a lot of pushing people to get them to testify and make them understand that, you know, look, we can do what we can to partake you, but you don't really have a choice here.

Even if it's the most innocuous testimony, who wants to possibly get any of these people mad at you? There was a lot of hand holding, a lot of cajoling, a lot of pushing people to get them to testify and make them understand that, you know, look, we can do what we can to partake you, but you don't really have a choice here.

For years, the mob had used intimidation and violence to keep witnesses out of the courtroom and themselves out of jail. But the government was ready to flex their muscles as well. And while young, the prosecutors were a virtual dream team of talent. Here's John Savay's.

For years, the mob had used intimidation and violence to keep witnesses out of the courtroom and themselves out of jail. But the government was ready to flex their muscles as well. And while young, the prosecutors were a virtual dream team of talent. Here's John Savay's.

Michael was the most senior person, and it was therefore pretty well understood that he would make the opening statement on behalf of the government.

Michael was the most senior person, and it was therefore pretty well understood that he would make the opening statement on behalf of the government.

John knew that Michael Chertoff would set a clear tone and that no matter the experience or reach of the defendants, prosecutors would not be intimidated. Only thirty one, John was already an accomplished Harvard law graduate and a former clerk to a Supreme Court justice, a clear up and comer in the US Attorney's office, and Giuliani was confident he'd be a strong addition to this team. The third in their trio guild Childers. He had the trial experience needed and would round out the team.

John knew that Michael Chertoff would set a clear tone and that no matter the experience or reach of the defendants, prosecutors would not be intimidated. Only thirty one, John was already an accomplished Harvard law graduate and a former clerk to a Supreme Court justice, a clear up and comer in the US Attorney's office, and Giuliani was confident he'd be a strong addition to this team. The third in their trio guild Childers. He had the trial experience needed and would round out the team.

He brought to the table something that Michael and I did not have, which is all of the forensics and expertise around the triple murder that was a chief part of the case.

He brought to the table something that Michael and I did not have, which is all of the forensics and expertise around the triple murder that was a chief part of the case.

I certainly had a tremendous advantage and luxury of having two great lawyers who were very steeped in federal criminal practice being my teammates. But when you're examining a witness, you're up there, I'll say.

I certainly had a tremendous advantage and luxury of having two great lawyers who were very steeped in federal criminal practice being my teammates. But when you're examining a witness, you're up there, I'll say.

Alone, alone except for the alleged mobsters steering a hole in his back and the scores of press outside the courtroom that would be reporting on the trials every move. For the young prosecutors, it would be a baptism by fire.

Alone, alone except for the alleged mobsters steering a hole in his back and the scores of press outside the courtroom that would be reporting on the trials every move. For the young prosecutors, it would be a baptism by fire.

This is the most important organized crime case arguably ever. You certainly didn't want to be known as the three guys who let the mob get off.

This is the most important organized crime case arguably ever. You certainly didn't want to be known as the three guys who let the mob get off.

John had similar apprehensions, but he was also aware of the unique opportunity.

John had similar apprehensions, but he was also aware of the unique opportunity.

We knew we were young. None of us had been a prosecutor all that long, and there were moments where we would, the three of us, we'd look at each other and sort of feel like, I have to pinch myself that we're actually getting to do this.

We knew we were young. None of us had been a prosecutor all that long, and there were moments where we would, the three of us, we'd look at each other and sort of feel like, I have to pinch myself that we're actually getting to do this.

This case could make or break their young careers, not to mention the career of their ambitious boss, Rudy Giuliani, who was staking his inevitable run for the Mayor's office on his promised takedown of the New York Mob.

This case could make or break their young careers, not to mention the career of their ambitious boss, Rudy Giuliani, who was staking his inevitable run for the Mayor's office on his promised takedown of the New York Mob.

And as the trial got closer and closer, that feeling was very strong. But at the same time, we were also working just ferociously hard. I mean just months and months and months of seven day weeks, with each day being fifteen sixteen hours low.

And as the trial got closer and closer, that feeling was very strong. But at the same time, we were also working just ferociously hard. I mean just months and months and months of seven day weeks, with each day being fifteen sixteen hours low.

You know, you know the stakes, You're high, You're really operating on adrenaline and will power to make sure you are focused, because important than you want to make sure is you don't want to make any mistakes something you could undermine the case factually or legally, So you have to have your wits about you.

You know, you know the stakes, You're high, You're really operating on adrenaline and will power to make sure you are focused, because important than you want to make sure is you don't want to make any mistakes something you could undermine the case factually or legally, So you have to have your wits about you.

Michael Chertoff, Guild Childers, and John Savay's ready to take on the challenge. But what about the risks? As the murder of Castellano proved, even the bosses weren't immune from danger, and do you know who else had caused for concern members of the jury. As you might recall from our first episode, in a previous trial against Banano boss Carmi Galanti, one jury format was thrown down a flight of stairs, resulting in a mistrial. Prosecutors knew it would be tough to convince the jury to serve in a trial against the city's most ruthless criminals.

Michael Chertoff, Guild Childers, and John Savay's ready to take on the challenge. But what about the risks? As the murder of Castellano proved, even the bosses weren't immune from danger, and do you know who else had caused for concern members of the jury. As you might recall from our first episode, in a previous trial against Banano boss Carmi Galanti, one jury format was thrown down a flight of stairs, resulting in a mistrial. Prosecutors knew it would be tough to convince the jury to serve in a trial against the city's most ruthless criminals.

They may turn out to be the biggest series of mob trials in US history, but first the trials have to begin, and what's slowing that process down is the actual selection of the jury itself. Over three thousand potential jurors have been called by the government, more than four times the usual number. The US Attorney also asked for and got anonymity for the jury, saying he feared the mob would try to get to them.

They may turn out to be the biggest series of mob trials in US history, but first the trials have to begin, and what's slowing that process down is the actual selection of the jury itself. Over three thousand potential jurors have been called by the government, more than four times the usual number. The US Attorney also asked for and got anonymity for the jury, saying he feared the mob would try to get to them.

As a rule, trial juries are not secret. Attorneys review potential jurors names, occupations, and backgrounds to try and eliminate potential bias. But his Gil Childers explains this case and these particular defendants called for extraordinary measures.

As a rule, trial juries are not secret. Attorneys review potential jurors names, occupations, and backgrounds to try and eliminate potential bias. But his Gil Childers explains this case and these particular defendants called for extraordinary measures.

The legal justification for anonymous jury really is concerning the press.

The legal justification for anonymous jury really is concerning the press.

Very frankly, the judges instructed the jury that the reason they're being pictononymously.

Very frankly, the judges instructed the jury that the reason they're being pictononymously.

Is that he's concerned about the media trying to interview them during the course of the trial.

Is that he's concerned about the media trying to interview them during the course of the trial.

But there was also the uncle spoken reason of juror safety from potential bribery, coercion, or even violence.

But there was also the uncle spoken reason of juror safety from potential bribery, coercion, or even violence.

Certainly, you can't tell the jury that the reason we're holding your names from the public is because these guys may try.

Certainly, you can't tell the jury that the reason we're holding your names from the public is because these guys may try.

And kill you.

And kill you.

After jury selection, their safety became a top priority for the federal government.

After jury selection, their safety became a top priority for the federal government.

The US Marshall Service would take them all and drop them off in one or two points of a transportation access, so they'd take them to the Grand Central or Defend station or a Porterfari bus terminal. Places where they did that, they would be melting in with folks, and it would be difficult to try and trace someone going home.

The US Marshall Service would take them all and drop them off in one or two points of a transportation access, so they'd take them to the Grand Central or Defend station or a Porterfari bus terminal. Places where they did that, they would be melting in with folks, and it would be difficult to try and trace someone going home.

But as the trial was said to begin, the security of everyone involved was just one of many challenges, because the government's all star team of young prosecutors weren't the only ones preparing for battle. Just as they'd been doing for over a century, the Five Families were prepared to do anything to protect their criminal kingdoms, and they weren't going down without a fight. On September eighth, nineteen eighty six, the Commission trial began.

But as the trial was said to begin, the security of everyone involved was just one of many challenges, because the government's all star team of young prosecutors weren't the only ones preparing for battle. Just as they'd been doing for over a century, the Five Families were prepared to do anything to protect their criminal kingdoms, and they weren't going down without a fight. On September eighth, nineteen eighty six, the Commission trial began.

Federal government says, if you want to know about the mob and its rackets and shakedowns and robots, you should ask a handful of men known as the Commission. They're on trial starting today in a Brooklyn courtroom.

Federal government says, if you want to know about the mob and its rackets and shakedowns and robots, you should ask a handful of men known as the Commission. They're on trial starting today in a Brooklyn courtroom.

The cast of the Commission trial three alleged bosses of organized crime families Anthony Tony Ducks Corlo of the Lukeesi crime family, Anthony fat Toni Slano of the Genevese family, and Carmine the Snake Persico, who allegedly runs the Columbo crime empire. This is the first time the ruling Commission has been put on trial.

The cast of the Commission trial three alleged bosses of organized crime families Anthony Tony Ducks Corlo of the Lukeesi crime family, Anthony fat Toni Slano of the Genevese family, and Carmine the Snake Persico, who allegedly runs the Columbo crime empire. This is the first time the ruling Commission has been put on trial.

On the steps of the Manhattan Federal Courthouse, swarms of report and cameras waited and watched as each car pulled up one after another, the defendants arrived. Their names and reputations had been whispered about for years, but this was the first time many in the public had ever laid eyes on some of the most notorious figures in the New York underworld. The defendants slipped out of their cars and quickly moved up the steps, their lawyers and bodyguards keeping away the press. Inside the courtroom was a scene for the history books. Mafia bosses, their underbosses, and all manner of minions, soldiers and enforcers assembled in one room, and predictably, most of them were dressed to the nines. Here's Gil Childers.

On the steps of the Manhattan Federal Courthouse, swarms of report and cameras waited and watched as each car pulled up one after another, the defendants arrived. Their names and reputations had been whispered about for years, but this was the first time many in the public had ever laid eyes on some of the most notorious figures in the New York underworld. The defendants slipped out of their cars and quickly moved up the steps, their lawyers and bodyguards keeping away the press. Inside the courtroom was a scene for the history books. Mafia bosses, their underbosses, and all manner of minions, soldiers and enforcers assembled in one room, and predictably, most of them were dressed to the nines. Here's Gil Childers.

The younger guys were coming in like Valentino suits, tie bars and gorgeous ties and pocket squares. Then you had Thatt Tony Soleardo, who would be in a sportcoat, collared shirt buttoned all the way to the top, no tie. You know, when he was outside, he'd have this little for Dora on.

The younger guys were coming in like Valentino suits, tie bars and gorgeous ties and pocket squares. Then you had Thatt Tony Soleardo, who would be in a sportcoat, collared shirt buttoned all the way to the top, no tie. You know, when he was outside, he'd have this little for Dora on.

For a public well acquainted with the mafia from the Godfather movies, The defendant's appearances were often as intriguing as the case itself. After all, the slick suited image of the Hollywood mafio so was a lasting part of pop culture, and the stars of this trial did not disappoint their audience.

For a public well acquainted with the mafia from the Godfather movies, The defendant's appearances were often as intriguing as the case itself. After all, the slick suited image of the Hollywood mafio so was a lasting part of pop culture, and the stars of this trial did not disappoint their audience.

In the Daily News and the New York Post, they actually had a mob fashion column talking about how the mob guys were dressed. We're trying these guys because they extort people. They're filled with violence, they murder people. And the newspapers are talking about what color suit they were wearing. Did the tie really matched the suit, and did the shoes and socks go with a suit? It was weird.

In the Daily News and the New York Post, they actually had a mob fashion column talking about how the mob guys were dressed. We're trying these guys because they extort people. They're filled with violence, they murder people. And the newspapers are talking about what color suit they were wearing. Did the tie really matched the suit, and did the shoes and socks go with a suit? It was weird.

The baggy eyed man in the suit is Carmine Junior Persico, and the camera shine man in the handcuffs is Anthony. They may look like grandfathers, but I says they are godfathers on trial for being members of the Mafiast ruling Council, the Commission.

The baggy eyed man in the suit is Carmine Junior Persico, and the camera shine man in the handcuffs is Anthony. They may look like grandfathers, but I says they are godfathers on trial for being members of the Mafiast ruling Council, the Commission.

The courtroom was full to the brim. The young prosecutors had never seen anything like it.

The courtroom was full to the brim. The young prosecutors had never seen anything like it.

Well. The case attracted a huge amount of press attention, and when the trial was first getting underway, the courtroom was absolutely packed with spectators and a lot of press, and that obviously creates a kind of electric atmosphere in a courtroom. It was being conducted in one of the large ceremonial courtrooms. My recollection of day one was walking in and realizing we were going to be putting on this trial in front of a very large audience.

Well. The case attracted a huge amount of press attention, and when the trial was first getting underway, the courtroom was absolutely packed with spectators and a lot of press, and that obviously creates a kind of electric atmosphere in a courtroom. It was being conducted in one of the large ceremonial courtrooms. My recollection of day one was walking in and realizing we were going to be putting on this trial in front of a very large audience.

For Gill and the rest of the team, it was by far the biggest case any of them had ever handled. Their every move and every possible mistake would be broadcast to the watching world.

For Gill and the rest of the team, it was by far the biggest case any of them had ever handled. Their every move and every possible mistake would be broadcast to the watching world.

There were daily press reports. Frequently, there was television news coverage. You know that if you screw up, your name's going to be in the paper for a bad reason the next day.

There were daily press reports. Frequently, there was television news coverage. You know that if you screw up, your name's going to be in the paper for a bad reason the next day.

Michael Chertoff would be the first one to take center stage. On the morning of September eighteenth, nineteen eighty six, he addressed the jury to give his opening statement.

Michael Chertoff would be the first one to take center stage. On the morning of September eighteenth, nineteen eighty six, he addressed the jury to give his opening statement.

In some ways, it's so consequential that you don't have time to be nervous, to think about yourself. You're just thinking about how do I present this to the jury in a way that is understandable, that covers a significant amount of evidence, it doesn't bog down in detail. And also to make it clear what the stakes are, that this is not just a routine case, but that you're talking about the board of directors of the American Mafia, the largest criminal organization in American history.

In some ways, it's so consequential that you don't have time to be nervous, to think about yourself. You're just thinking about how do I present this to the jury in a way that is understandable, that covers a significant amount of evidence, it doesn't bog down in detail. And also to make it clear what the stakes are, that this is not just a routine case, but that you're talking about the board of directors of the American Mafia, the largest criminal organization in American history.

The prosecution intended to prove that the Commission was a criminal enterprise and that each defendant committed multiple acts of racketeering.

The prosecution intended to prove that the Commission was a criminal enterprise and that each defendant committed multiple acts of racketeering.

I told you early on in my opening, this is the largest and most vicious criminal business in the history of the United States. And I went on to say the Commission was dominated by a single principle, greed. And I think those two statements from my opening Encapsuley what the nature of the Commission and the American Mafia was.

I told you early on in my opening, this is the largest and most vicious criminal business in the history of the United States. And I went on to say the Commission was dominated by a single principle, greed. And I think those two statements from my opening Encapsuley what the nature of the Commission and the American Mafia was.

In his opening remarks, Federal Prosecutor Michael Chertoff told the jury that the Commission has been the governing body of the Mafia all a cost in Austra for the last thirty years. He said that on a government audio tape fact Tony Solano describes a Commission as a sacred thing.

In his opening remarks, Federal Prosecutor Michael Chertoff told the jury that the Commission has been the governing body of the Mafia all a cost in Austra for the last thirty years. He said that on a government audio tape fact Tony Solano describes a Commission as a sacred thing.

Michael made it clear that the Mafia had a devastating impact on the lives and livelihoods of everyday citizens.

Michael made it clear that the Mafia had a devastating impact on the lives and livelihoods of everyday citizens.

He said Commission members rule over mafia activities, particularly the concrete industry, with the power of an iron fist covered by a velvet glove, and he says he has video and audio tapes to prove it. He says, unlike TV and the movies, their threats to extort money are subtle and unpleasant.

He said Commission members rule over mafia activities, particularly the concrete industry, with the power of an iron fist covered by a velvet glove, and he says he has video and audio tapes to prove it. He says, unlike TV and the movies, their threats to extort money are subtle and unpleasant.

But just like in the movies, their methods were cruel, ruthless, and often deadly. After Michael delivered his opening statement, it was the defense's turn, and defense attorney Samuel Dawson did something that no one in the courtroom ever saw coming.

But just like in the movies, their methods were cruel, ruthless, and often deadly. After Michael delivered his opening statement, it was the defense's turn, and defense attorney Samuel Dawson did something that no one in the courtroom ever saw coming.

In an unusual move, one of the defense attorneys admits all of the defendants in this case are members of the mafia.

In an unusual move, one of the defense attorneys admits all of the defendants in this case are members of the mafia.

In an effort to undermine one of the prosecution's main arguments, the defense launched a preemptive attack. He admitted to the packed courtroom that the mafia did exist. Here's the defense attorney speaking to reporters.

In an effort to undermine one of the prosecution's main arguments, the defense launched a preemptive attack. He admitted to the packed courtroom that the mafia did exist. Here's the defense attorney speaking to reporters.

We've told the jury that people are members of it. But just as you heard me say, each one of those jurors coming to this courtroom with all the beliefs, impressions, or opinions about the mafia or whatever they think it is, they pledged to us that they would put that side and decide whether these men from the mafia in this case did the crimes charged in this.

We've told the jury that people are members of it. But just as you heard me say, each one of those jurors coming to this courtroom with all the beliefs, impressions, or opinions about the mafia or whatever they think it is, they pledged to us that they would put that side and decide whether these men from the mafia in this case did the crimes charged in this.

Case Dawson even confirmed the existence of the Commission and its role as the mafia's governing body. However, he denied a conspire to extort the concrete industry, claiming instead that its function was to approve new members and settle disputes. Former FBI agent Charlotte Lang remembers the shock they all felt as he delivered his statement.

Case Dawson even confirmed the existence of the Commission and its role as the mafia's governing body. However, he denied a conspire to extort the concrete industry, claiming instead that its function was to approve new members and settle disputes. Former FBI agent Charlotte Lang remembers the shock they all felt as he delivered his statement.

I can remember looking at your top. His mouth was wide open, and we were like, are you kidding me? Because we had such excellent evidence that there was such a thing as the Commission In Organized.

I can remember looking at your top. His mouth was wide open, and we were like, are you kidding me? Because we had such excellent evidence that there was such a thing as the Commission In Organized.

Crime, John Savaye remembers thinking that the defense's daring strategy was a smart play for a savvy jury.

Crime, John Savaye remembers thinking that the defense's daring strategy was a smart play for a savvy jury.

It was obviously a bold move on that lawyer's part, but I certainly understand the stratug He made the tactical judgment, I'm not going to try to eat up my credibility with the jury by contesting something that's going to seem so obvious to the jury. By the end of this trial.

It was obviously a bold move on that lawyer's part, but I certainly understand the stratug He made the tactical judgment, I'm not going to try to eat up my credibility with the jury by contesting something that's going to seem so obvious to the jury. By the end of this trial.

The next big surprise when one of the defendants, Carmin Persico, decided he would forego a defense attorney and represent himself in the biggest trial of his life.

The next big surprise when one of the defendants, Carmin Persico, decided he would forego a defense attorney and represent himself in the biggest trial of his life.

Carmine the Snake Persicoe, alleged boss of a Colombo crime family, acting as his own attorney, stood to address the jury. He approached the jury box, took off his glasses, smiled, and said, my name is Carmin Persicoe. I am not a lawyer, he said, I'm a defendant. The government has to prove I'm guilty. He mock anticipated government witnesses against him. Referring to paid informants, he said they have contracts with the government. Looking at the jury, he said the government pays for them with your money and my freedom.

Carmine the Snake Persicoe, alleged boss of a Colombo crime family, acting as his own attorney, stood to address the jury. He approached the jury box, took off his glasses, smiled, and said, my name is Carmin Persicoe. I am not a lawyer, he said, I'm a defendant. The government has to prove I'm guilty. He mock anticipated government witnesses against him. Referring to paid informants, he said they have contracts with the government. Looking at the jury, he said the government pays for them with your money and my freedom.

Persico spoke to the jury with a mix of indignate and folksy street charm, saying he intended to undermine the government's case by exposing an alleged bias, corruption, and illegal investigative methods. Here's Michael Carmine.

Persico spoke to the jury with a mix of indignate and folksy street charm, saying he intended to undermine the government's case by exposing an alleged bias, corruption, and illegal investigative methods. Here's Michael Carmine.

Perscoe was the one who was the most personally antagonistic. Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain.

Perscoe was the one who was the most personally antagonistic. Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain.

There's an old saying about the defendant who represents himself in court that he has a fool for a client. But in cases as meticulously prepared as this one, no surprise is a good surprise, and managing a wild card like Carmine Persico would keep prosecutors on their toes again and again. They would have to rely on their biggest, most effective weapon, the evidence, witness, testimony, surveillance, and especially recorded wiretaps, and they would start with the classic that dated all the way back to nineteen fifty seven, the infamous Appalachan Commission meet. You may remember that the Appalachan Meeting in upstate New York was a historic summit of organized crime bosses. Law enforcement broke it up, sending Vito Genevi's, Carlo Gambino and Paul Castelano running through the woods.

There's an old saying about the defendant who represents himself in court that he has a fool for a client. But in cases as meticulously prepared as this one, no surprise is a good surprise, and managing a wild card like Carmine Persico would keep prosecutors on their toes again and again. They would have to rely on their biggest, most effective weapon, the evidence, witness, testimony, surveillance, and especially recorded wiretaps, and they would start with the classic that dated all the way back to nineteen fifty seven, the infamous Appalachan Commission meet. You may remember that the Appalachan Meeting in upstate New York was a historic summit of organized crime bosses. Law enforcement broke it up, sending Vito Genevi's, Carlo Gambino and Paul Castelano running through the woods.

Of course, it caused a lot of belly aching from defense council. Who cares what happened in nineteen fifty seven? Is that what they're charged with? And of course the answer to that is yes, they are charged for that because they're part of this enterprise, and this enterprise existed back then as.

Of course, it caused a lot of belly aching from defense council. Who cares what happened in nineteen fifty seven? Is that what they're charged with? And of course the answer to that is yes, they are charged for that because they're part of this enterprise, and this enterprise existed back then as.

Well, as Michael explains. The prosecution then presented the hours and hours of wiretap audio in which mob members referenced the commissionssion.

Well, as Michael explains. The prosecution then presented the hours and hours of wiretap audio in which mob members referenced the commissionssion.

Both on the tapes in the Palma Boy Social Club and the tapes in the Jaguars. They use the word the Commission they talked about the Commission. The Commission has decided the Commission's decide that so there was no question that the Commission existed.

Both on the tapes in the Palma Boy Social Club and the tapes in the Jaguars. They use the word the Commission they talked about the Commission. The Commission has decided the Commission's decide that so there was no question that the Commission existed.

None was more significant than the jaguar bug, which overheard damning conversations between Tony Ducks, Caralo, and a lou Casey family capo named Salvator Avelino.

None was more significant than the jaguar bug, which overheard damning conversations between Tony Ducks, Caralo, and a lou Casey family capo named Salvator Avelino.

For years, the FBI has been watching and listening to the mob street corner meetings from a bug installed under the dashboard of Coralo's Jaguar. They heard Tony Ducks complain about family members who sell drugs, then talk business.

For years, the FBI has been watching and listening to the mob street corner meetings from a bug installed under the dashboard of Coralo's Jaguar. They heard Tony Ducks complain about family members who sell drugs, then talk business.

Would out selfless second child.

Would out selfless second child.

So Avelino was, in a way like an answering machine who recorded messages to be given to the other leader of the family. The result of this is again you had a very detailed description when Avelino talked to either Coralo or Soalerno about what their illegal businesses were.

So Avelino was, in a way like an answering machine who recorded messages to be given to the other leader of the family. The result of this is again you had a very detailed description when Avelino talked to either Coralo or Soalerno about what their illegal businesses were.

The hours of recorded surveillance was hard to refute, but it could also be a challenge for a jury to absorb in process, and a trial can be a fight for a jury sympathy and attention as much as a fight for the facts, which is why presenting a live witness became so critical to the prosecution's case because at the end of the day, a jury loves to hear it straight from the source. Enter Angelo Leonardo, the Cleveland crime boss, had been serving a life sentence plus one hundred and three years when he offered to testify against his fellow mobsters. In exchange, he'd be given a reduced sentence and a life in the witness protection program. In the courtroom, Leonardo laid out the inner workings of the Commission, and according to Charlotte Lang, his testimony was pivotal.

The hours of recorded surveillance was hard to refute, but it could also be a challenge for a jury to absorb in process, and a trial can be a fight for a jury sympathy and attention as much as a fight for the facts, which is why presenting a live witness became so critical to the prosecution's case because at the end of the day, a jury loves to hear it straight from the source. Enter Angelo Leonardo, the Cleveland crime boss, had been serving a life sentence plus one hundred and three years when he offered to testify against his fellow mobsters. In exchange, he'd be given a reduced sentence and a life in the witness protection program. In the courtroom, Leonardo laid out the inner workings of the Commission, and according to Charlotte Lang, his testimony was pivotal.

He was basically saying, these are the heads of organized crime, and it's called the Commission. Yeah, the associates, Yeah, soldiers. He was basically laying it out for the jury.

He was basically saying, these are the heads of organized crime, and it's called the Commission. Yeah, the associates, Yeah, soldiers. He was basically laying it out for the jury.

His nearly sixty year criminal career and heavy Sicilian accent only added to his authenticity, and his testimony had jurors on the edge of their seat. Here was one of the mafia's own testifying under clear threat to his life against one of the deadliest criminal organizations in the world, and.

His nearly sixty year criminal career and heavy Sicilian accent only added to his authenticity, and his testimony had jurors on the edge of their seat. Here was one of the mafia's own testifying under clear threat to his life against one of the deadliest criminal organizations in the world, and.

The signal was kind of interesting about him. He kind of looked like Aristotle Anassis, and he wore dark glasses, had this full head of gray hair. He just looked like a mob boss. He sounded like a mob boss, and the jury was like hanging on every word he was saying.

The signal was kind of interesting about him. He kind of looked like Aristotle Anassis, and he wore dark glasses, had this full head of gray hair. He just looked like a mob boss. He sounded like a mob boss, and the jury was like hanging on every word he was saying.

Leonardo explained to a rapt jury that in order to sanction a hit on a mob boss, you needed approval from all the families. During cross examination, Salerno's attorney grilled Leonardo about his claims, and more importantly, tried to raise doubts about the credibility of a convicted drug trafficker and admitted career criminal, especially one who had betrayed his fellow mobsters in exchange for his freedom and a new identity. The fury from the defendant's table was palpable, and the threat to Lenardo's safety did not have to be spoken aloud to be clear to everyone in the courtroom.

Leonardo explained to a rapt jury that in order to sanction a hit on a mob boss, you needed approval from all the families. During cross examination, Salerno's attorney grilled Leonardo about his claims, and more importantly, tried to raise doubts about the credibility of a convicted drug trafficker and admitted career criminal, especially one who had betrayed his fellow mobsters in exchange for his freedom and a new identity. The fury from the defendant's table was palpable, and the threat to Lenardo's safety did not have to be spoken aloud to be clear to everyone in the courtroom.

You're dealing with a different animal. I'm not suggesting that witnesses in a homicide in Brooklyn aren't frequently and very real peril, but it's not a nationwide organization with a type of reach that Lakosinustra has.

You're dealing with a different animal. I'm not suggesting that witnesses in a homicide in Brooklyn aren't frequently and very real peril, but it's not a nationwide organization with a type of reach that Lakosinustra has.

And part of the difference in the threat is that once they turn, it's not just about stopping their testimony. It's to pay the price for breaking that code correct.

And part of the difference in the threat is that once they turn, it's not just about stopping their testimony. It's to pay the price for breaking that code correct.

Even if it's not going to do the individuals they testified against any good at that point in time, there still has to be a message set for the next person who's thinking about cooperating.

Even if it's not going to do the individuals they testified against any good at that point in time, there still has to be a message set for the next person who's thinking about cooperating.

A lot of thought goes into how best to keep those witnesses safe.

A lot of thought goes into how best to keep those witnesses safe.

They had to put them in communities where there would not be any ties to a large Italian American populations because because of those true fermiated Italian neighborhoods and populations throughout the country, and once one of these guys would testify or it was known to be cooperating, the word would go out and literally there would be a nationwide manhunt. So you know, you end up with people out in the Midwest or the far West, or outside of some small city in Texas where the best thing he can do is dominoes for Italian food.

They had to put them in communities where there would not be any ties to a large Italian American populations because because of those true fermiated Italian neighborhoods and populations throughout the country, and once one of these guys would testify or it was known to be cooperating, the word would go out and literally there would be a nationwide manhunt. So you know, you end up with people out in the Midwest or the far West, or outside of some small city in Texas where the best thing he can do is dominoes for Italian food.

Charlotte was one of those responsible for prepping and protecting Lenardo both before and during the trial. He was living in an undisclosed location far from the eyes of the New York City mob.

Charlotte was one of those responsible for prepping and protecting Lenardo both before and during the trial. He was living in an undisclosed location far from the eyes of the New York City mob.

So I flew to this particular location. The whole one side of this condo was all glass and there were like trees back behind there like a woodsy area. We would be chatting, and then I thought to myself, if anybody knew we were here, they could just walk out of those woods and just kills the two of us.

So I flew to this particular location. The whole one side of this condo was all glass and there were like trees back behind there like a woodsy area. We would be chatting, and then I thought to myself, if anybody knew we were here, they could just walk out of those woods and just kills the two of us.

And the safety of their star witness wasn't the only concern. The prosecutors also had their own wellbeing to think about. Here's John Savay's It was very.

And the safety of their star witness wasn't the only concern. The prosecutors also had their own wellbeing to think about. Here's John Savay's It was very.

Much a concern. I would sort of disappear for days to some city that I couldn't even tell my wife where I was going, in order to meet with someone who was a murderer. I vividly remember we had a tape in which fat Toni Salerno in his social club is kind of mocking Rudy Giuliani. There had been a story in the New York Post about Giuliani having a bodyguard, and fat Toni says something like, that's ridiculous. He don't need a bodyguard. Don't even know we never killed prosecutors. And I brought it home and on my home stereo played this tape for my wife and I then look at her and I say, see, it's all fine. He looked at me like I completely lost my mind. She said, so you think because you caught a mass murderer on tape saying that he's not going to kill prosecutors, that I'm supposed to feel better about this.

Much a concern. I would sort of disappear for days to some city that I couldn't even tell my wife where I was going, in order to meet with someone who was a murderer. I vividly remember we had a tape in which fat Toni Salerno in his social club is kind of mocking Rudy Giuliani. There had been a story in the New York Post about Giuliani having a bodyguard, and fat Toni says something like, that's ridiculous. He don't need a bodyguard. Don't even know we never killed prosecutors. And I brought it home and on my home stereo played this tape for my wife and I then look at her and I say, see, it's all fine. He looked at me like I completely lost my mind. She said, so you think because you caught a mass murderer on tape saying that he's not going to kill prosecutors, that I'm supposed to feel better about this.

There had been, over a period of years prior to or during this case, a pretty clear indication that the US Mafia would not kill prosecutors or police. They would kill witnesses, and they might kill people who disrupted their business, but they didn't kill law enforcement people. A lot of that was based on the fear they had that if they ever killed a prosecutor or a police officer or an FBI agent, the government might take the gloves off and do some things that were, let say, out of bounds otherwise in order to retaliate.

There had been, over a period of years prior to or during this case, a pretty clear indication that the US Mafia would not kill prosecutors or police. They would kill witnesses, and they might kill people who disrupted their business, but they didn't kill law enforcement people. A lot of that was based on the fear they had that if they ever killed a prosecutor or a police officer or an FBI agent, the government might take the gloves off and do some things that were, let say, out of bounds otherwise in order to retaliate.

But the commission case was rewriting the rules. The heads of the five families were facing an existential crisis, and it was becoming increasingly clear that there was no line they wouldn't cross. It was a reality that Gildchilders conceded, So I guess.

But the commission case was rewriting the rules. The heads of the five families were facing an existential crisis, and it was becoming increasingly clear that there was no line they wouldn't cross. It was a reality that Gildchilders conceded, So I guess.

My subconscious there was at least acknowledgment that there was some element of danger.

My subconscious there was at least acknowledgment that there was some element of danger.

A danger that went from unspoken to front and center in the courtroom.

A danger that went from unspoken to front and center in the courtroom.

There was one episode one afternoon involving Bruno and Delocado, where you threatened me.

There was one episode one afternoon involving Bruno and Delocado, where you threatened me.

In the courtroom.

In the courtroom.

Bruno and Delacado was the primary defendant in the murder of Carmi Galante, and as we will see, the hot headed consiglieri for the Banano family was willing to do anything to avoid going down with the ship. In our first episode, we described the murder of the de facto boss of the Banano crime family, Carmine Galante, and two of his associates. After matching a palm print on the recovered ghetaway car, police identified one of their primary suspects, a Banano soldier named Bruno in Delacado, and this homicide was now a centerpiece of the government's case against the mafia. But why among the many murders carried out by the mob did prosecutors focus on this one. Because the government believed that they could prove that Galanti's murder was ordered by the members of the commission, and that conspiracy meant they were all accountable for the crime. But as Michael Cherdoff explains, including this case in the trial also served another critical purpose.

Bruno and Delacado was the primary defendant in the murder of Carmi Galante, and as we will see, the hot headed consiglieri for the Banano family was willing to do anything to avoid going down with the ship. In our first episode, we described the murder of the de facto boss of the Banano crime family, Carmine Galante, and two of his associates. After matching a palm print on the recovered ghetaway car, police identified one of their primary suspects, a Banano soldier named Bruno in Delacado, and this homicide was now a centerpiece of the government's case against the mafia. But why among the many murders carried out by the mob did prosecutors focus on this one. Because the government believed that they could prove that Galanti's murder was ordered by the members of the commission, and that conspiracy meant they were all accountable for the crime. But as Michael Cherdoff explains, including this case in the trial also served another critical purpose.

In order to make it real and to motivate the jury to sit through the trial and to take it seriously. An active violence has a dramatic effect, unlike tapes or people talking about paying money, and it makes in a very real way the jury understand that we're talking about here is not just who gets money from a contract, who lives and dies. And the fact that you have a criminal organization that is willing to chose someone at a restaurant, I think makes everybody sit up and take notice.

In order to make it real and to motivate the jury to sit through the trial and to take it seriously. An active violence has a dramatic effect, unlike tapes or people talking about paying money, and it makes in a very real way the jury understand that we're talking about here is not just who gets money from a contract, who lives and dies. And the fact that you have a criminal organization that is willing to chose someone at a restaurant, I think makes everybody sit up and take notice.

You know what else makes a jury sit up and take notice when an aggressive defendant threatened street justice in the middle of the court room. Here's Gil Childers.

You know what else makes a jury sit up and take notice when an aggressive defendant threatened street justice in the middle of the court room. Here's Gil Childers.

At the time of the trial, Bruno was a captain. He had been promoted largely, our informants tell us as a result of his successful murder of Carmon Galante. For a couple months, he's just sitting there twiddling his thumbs.

At the time of the trial, Bruno was a captain. He had been promoted largely, our informants tell us as a result of his successful murder of Carmon Galante. For a couple months, he's just sitting there twiddling his thumbs.

You know what am I doing here?

You know what am I doing here?

Then all of a sudden we turn to the part of the case that involves the homicide of Carmine Galante, and all of a sudden, his world sort of changed from he's been a spectator now he's in the spotlight. As soon as the court recessed for lunch, he jumps up and starts yelling at me, screaming, I know who you are? What are you doing?

Then all of a sudden we turn to the part of the case that involves the homicide of Carmine Galante, and all of a sudden, his world sort of changed from he's been a spectator now he's in the spotlight. As soon as the court recessed for lunch, he jumps up and starts yelling at me, screaming, I know who you are? What are you doing?

You fair?

You fair?

What are you talking about? Just screaming. The marshals come in, grab them and take him in the back and I'm like, oh wow, that was kind of shocking.

What are you talking about? Just screaming. The marshals come in, grab them and take him in the back and I'm like, oh wow, that was kind of shocking.

The episode left prosecutor's shaken. Just one look at the Galante crime scene photos gave them a good idea of what in Delacado was capable of.

The episode left prosecutor's shaken. Just one look at the Galante crime scene photos gave them a good idea of what in Delacado was capable of.

Came back after the lunch in recess and we're at the council table getting ready before the court comes in and the jury comes in. Bruno was coming in from the holding cell behind the courtroom. The marshals bring him and he sits down and one of the deputy marshalls comes over and says that Gil and Delocata wants to talk to you. So I go over to him and goes, mister Childers, I want to tell you. I apologize. I was completely out of line. That was not right. You've got nothing to worry about for me. Again, I wasn't really expecting that.

Came back after the lunch in recess and we're at the council table getting ready before the court comes in and the jury comes in. Bruno was coming in from the holding cell behind the courtroom. The marshals bring him and he sits down and one of the deputy marshalls comes over and says that Gil and Delocata wants to talk to you. So I go over to him and goes, mister Childers, I want to tell you. I apologize. I was completely out of line. That was not right. You've got nothing to worry about for me. Again, I wasn't really expecting that.

So what accounted for the sudden change of heart?

So what accounted for the sudden change of heart?

When I thought about it, I thought his co defendants are all people with exception of one that outranked him within the mafia. They're all on trial for their lives as well. In the back room and the holding salon, he could imagine that fat Tony or someone else said, Bruno, what the hell are you doing? We got enough heat on us. We don't need this kind of crap. But for whatever reason he had a change of heart when he came back out, and there was never another episode like that with him in the courtroom.

When I thought about it, I thought his co defendants are all people with exception of one that outranked him within the mafia. They're all on trial for their lives as well. In the back room and the holding salon, he could imagine that fat Tony or someone else said, Bruno, what the hell are you doing? We got enough heat on us. We don't need this kind of crap. But for whatever reason he had a change of heart when he came back out, and there was never another episode like that with him in the courtroom.

The prosecution pressed on with the evidence in the Galante murder. One of the key witnesses was a woman named Migaulia Figueroa, who had identified part of the license plate on the getaway car. But once again the specter of retribution from the mob threatened to derail their case. Here's Charlotte.

The prosecution pressed on with the evidence in the Galante murder. One of the key witnesses was a woman named Migaulia Figueroa, who had identified part of the license plate on the getaway car. But once again the specter of retribution from the mob threatened to derail their case. Here's Charlotte.

She was like nowhere to be found for a long period of time. She was so frightened. We sent a lead down to our office in Puerto Rico, and I got a call saying that an agent in Puerto Rico had located her and she was really not willing to testify.

She was like nowhere to be found for a long period of time. She was so frightened. We sent a lead down to our office in Puerto Rico, and I got a call saying that an agent in Puerto Rico had located her and she was really not willing to testify.

Without the witness to lead to the getaway car was likely out. And then what about the pomp print linking a Delecado to the murder. Charlotte had to convince her witness to show up in court on the day that it mattered.

Without the witness to lead to the getaway car was likely out. And then what about the pomp print linking a Delecado to the murder. Charlotte had to convince her witness to show up in court on the day that it mattered.

We sat down with her and at one particular point, I thought she's going to back out of this, but I think we had convinced her that the most important thing was her safety and we would make sure that she was going to be safe.

We sat down with her and at one particular point, I thought she's going to back out of this, but I think we had convinced her that the most important thing was her safety and we would make sure that she was going to be safe.

Finally, she agreed, and as she took the witness stand, the fear was clear on her face and to the jury.

Finally, she agreed, and as she took the witness stand, the fear was clear on her face and to the jury.

The thing that was so significant about her testimony was you could tell she was scared to death. She didn't even want to look over toward where we were sitting. I mean, all the mob guys were behind us. You could just tell that she didn't want to do this, which made her a very effective witness.

The thing that was so significant about her testimony was you could tell she was scared to death. She didn't even want to look over toward where we were sitting. I mean, all the mob guys were behind us. You could just tell that she didn't want to do this, which made her a very effective witness.

Figaro's testimony confirmed that the car she had seen leaving the crime scene and the one with the pomp print were one and the same. They also had video surveillance of Bruno a Banano celebrating with Gambino gangsters at their club right after the murder, clearly showing the families were in this together.

Figaro's testimony confirmed that the car she had seen leaving the crime scene and the one with the pomp print were one and the same. They also had video surveillance of Bruno a Banano celebrating with Gambino gangsters at their club right after the murder, clearly showing the families were in this together.

It showed that these guys, as a governance tool, employed murder. So it was the clearest and probably the most compelling piece of evidence you could have in terms of the violent nature of not only the mafia but the Commission taking action to govern Lecosinostra.

It showed that these guys, as a governance tool, employed murder. So it was the clearest and probably the most compelling piece of evidence you could have in terms of the violent nature of not only the mafia but the Commission taking action to govern Lecosinostra.

But while the murder of Carma Galanti gave the Commission case many of its dramatic headlines, the bulk of the government's case centered on the mob's less sexy side of the business concrete. Concrete made up the majority of the mafia's illicit revenue streams.

But while the murder of Carma Galanti gave the Commission case many of its dramatic headlines, the bulk of the government's case centered on the mob's less sexy side of the business concrete. Concrete made up the majority of the mafia's illicit revenue streams.

The major money making effort private Commission was this requirement, using their control over the labor unions, that every job in Manhattan that involved concrete being poured or cement being poured have a value of over two million dollars. The mob had to get a percentage of that four percent, two percent for the particular family that quote owned that labor union, and two percent for the Commission as a whole, to divide up.

The major money making effort private Commission was this requirement, using their control over the labor unions, that every job in Manhattan that involved concrete being poured or cement being poured have a value of over two million dollars. The mob had to get a percentage of that four percent, two percent for the particular family that quote owned that labor union, and two percent for the Commission as a whole, to divide up.

In other words, as New York City grew hire and hire, the mob grew richer and richer. But explaining the complicated scheme, which involved everything from rigging union votes to threatening contractors, was not a simple task. Prosecutors worried that their case risk being bogged down in the minutia of the financial details and digging through all those records was difficult for the prosecutors too.

In other words, as New York City grew hire and hire, the mob grew richer and richer. But explaining the complicated scheme, which involved everything from rigging union votes to threatening contractors, was not a simple task. Prosecutors worried that their case risk being bogged down in the minutia of the financial details and digging through all those records was difficult for the prosecutors too.

Ritual we set up four days a week from I think those nine thirty to five, and at the end of the court day you take a deep breath and then you scurry back to your office because you'd gotten awful lot of work to do to get things ready for.

Ritual we set up four days a week from I think those nine thirty to five, and at the end of the court day you take a deep breath and then you scurry back to your office because you'd gotten awful lot of work to do to get things ready for.

The next day.

The next day.

As you can imagine, the trial took its toll on the prosecutor's families as well.

As you can imagine, the trial took its toll on the prosecutor's families as well.

All three of the wives, you know, Michael's, mine and Gills, became friends and they would I think commiserate among the three of them that you know, they had these three lunatic husbands that were working just like complete maniacs.

All three of the wives, you know, Michael's, mine and Gills, became friends and they would I think commiserate among the three of them that you know, they had these three lunatic husbands that were working just like complete maniacs.

Speaking of wives, those on the prosecution side weren't the only ones showing up to the courtroom. Here's John.

Speaking of wives, those on the prosecution side weren't the only ones showing up to the courtroom. Here's John.

My wife was in the courtroom on important days and she during breaks would go into the ladies room and the mob wives were there. I remember her telling me afterwards that they don't like you very much. John. You know, I won't repeat exactly what they said, but it wasn't very friendly.

My wife was in the courtroom on important days and she during breaks would go into the ladies room and the mob wives were there. I remember her telling me afterwards that they don't like you very much. John. You know, I won't repeat exactly what they said, but it wasn't very friendly.

But whatever their animosity towards the government, their husbands betrayed a little outward emotion.

But whatever their animosity towards the government, their husbands betrayed a little outward emotion.

They understood they had signed on for this and always understood the risks. They were stoic. They would listen to the evidence, and they didn't seem to be angry or resentful. They seemed to be philosophical about it. I remember a couple of times we're walking up to the bench to talk to the judge. I'd walk by Salerna, who's the boss of the Genevie's film mean. He'd make a comment like, Oh, You're going to be famous when this is over, and I'm going to be in jail, and he'd like laugh.

They understood they had signed on for this and always understood the risks. They were stoic. They would listen to the evidence, and they didn't seem to be angry or resentful. They seemed to be philosophical about it. I remember a couple of times we're walking up to the bench to talk to the judge. I'd walk by Salerna, who's the boss of the Genevie's film mean. He'd make a comment like, Oh, You're going to be famous when this is over, and I'm going to be in jail, and he'd like laugh.

But as the trial went on, many on the prosecution side and in the press began to wonder if their stoicism was a sign of resignation in the face of the evidence against them, or a sign that maybe these giants of organized crime, who had avoided the long arm of the log for going on seven decades, might still have one or two more tricks up their sleeves. Carmine Persico was an alleged participant in multiple mob assassinations and violent power plays. He had a reputation for living up to his nickname the Snake. In the courtroom, it was clear he aimed to be just as hard to handle.

But as the trial went on, many on the prosecution side and in the press began to wonder if their stoicism was a sign of resignation in the face of the evidence against them, or a sign that maybe these giants of organized crime, who had avoided the long arm of the log for going on seven decades, might still have one or two more tricks up their sleeves. Carmine Persico was an alleged participant in multiple mob assassinations and violent power plays. He had a reputation for living up to his nickname the Snake. In the courtroom, it was clear he aimed to be just as hard to handle.

Persico decided that he would represent himself in the trial and not have a defense lawyer represent.

Persico decided that he would represent himself in the trial and not have a defense lawyer represent.

Him, and acting as his own attorney made for some unique moments.

Him, and acting as his own attorney made for some unique moments.

Periodically, the judge will bring the lawyers up to sidebar to have a discussion outside the hearing of the jury about a point of evidence or an issue that has arisen. And one of the stranger things about this trial is that Carmine Persico, the boss of the Colombo family, was in these intimate little sidebars with us, the other defense lawyers, and the judge.

Periodically, the judge will bring the lawyers up to sidebar to have a discussion outside the hearing of the jury about a point of evidence or an issue that has arisen. And one of the stranger things about this trial is that Carmine Persico, the boss of the Colombo family, was in these intimate little sidebars with us, the other defense lawyers, and the judge.

It was obvious that Persico was scheming something, but what it wouldn't be until he got up to talk that prosecutors finally got a glimpse of his plan.

It was obvious that Persico was scheming something, but what it wouldn't be until he got up to talk that prosecutors finally got a glimpse of his plan.

Dressed in a pinstriped suit and reading from a yellow legal pad, Persico told the jury in a barely audible voice, that the government will put witnesses on the stand who have committed many crimes and are testifying because of deals with the government that include payments of money.

Dressed in a pinstriped suit and reading from a yellow legal pad, Persico told the jury in a barely audible voice, that the government will put witnesses on the stand who have committed many crimes and are testifying because of deals with the government that include payments of money.

With an aggression befitting a man whose freedom was on the line, Persico proceeded to attack and threaten every witness who had dared to take the stand against him. In one cross examination after another, he tried to intimidate witnesses into recanting testimony. His reckless approach threatened to doom the defense, That is, until it looked like it just might be working.

With an aggression befitting a man whose freedom was on the line, Persico proceeded to attack and threaten every witness who had dared to take the stand against him. In one cross examination after another, he tried to intimidate witnesses into recanting testimony. His reckless approach threatened to doom the defense, That is, until it looked like it just might be working.

Next time. On Law and Order Criminal Justice System.

Next time. On Law and Order Criminal Justice System.

You could just feel the venom and the hatred that Persico felt.

You could just feel the venom and the hatred that Persico felt.

She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved because he was with me, so she was the alibi.

She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved because he was with me, so she was the alibi.

This sent Percugo into orbit. If you've ever heard of the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is like looking surface missiles.

This sent Percugo into orbit. If you've ever heard of the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is like looking surface missiles.

Persigo tugged on my coat sleeve and said, you think them guys died? The gunshot Wounds.

Persigo tugged on my coat sleeve and said, you think them guys died? The gunshot Wounds.

Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anna Sega nicolazi. This episode was written by Trevor Young and Anna Sega Nicolazzi. Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young and Chandler Mays and producers Jesse Funk, Nomes Griffin, and Rima Alkali. This season is executive produced by Anna Sega Nicolazzi, story producer Walker lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn Talmadge and Lukes. Dance editing and sound designed by Nomes Griffin, original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, additional music by Steve Moore, and additional voice over by me Steve Zernkelton. Special thanks to Fox five in New York, ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.