This is Here After and I'm your host, Megan Divine. This week's show is a repeat performance. We'll be back with season two soon enough, but for right now, enjoy this episode and visit the back catalog of episodes two while you're at it. This is Here After and I'm your Host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle big questions from therapists, doctors, and other helpful folks that let us explore how to show up after life goes horribly wrong. This week, Relationships under Stress. Look, grief is hard, any kind of grief, death or break up, loss of your sense of the world as a good and safe place in which to live, the grief that collects day after day in your line of work, all of it. When you're going through hard times, it's often your relationships that take the brunt of all that stress. And the truth is not every relationship will survive. Stay tuned to find out how to deal with all that stuff and pick up some communication tips right after this first break before we get started, one quick note, while I hope you find a lot of useful information in our time here together, This show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Hey, friends, So this week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to, wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. You've got competing needs, conditioning from childhood and other personal experiences that colors how you relate to people, and some completely normal but often uncomfortable ways of communicating, like either avoiding the conflict or instigating the conflict. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. So this thing happens every time I start talking about how to support somebody inside grief or stress us or the ways that even with our best intentions, we kind of fail. The people that were wanting to support somebody always says, if you want better support, you just have to communicate your needs to the people around you. Okay, I've tried to say that several times without my snarky voice, but I can't. I also kind of can't, like help roll my eyes when I hear stuff like this, Like it happens all the time. If you want better support, you have to tell people what you need. They're not mind readers. Okay, here's the thing, though, identifying what you need in any given situation, then figuring out who might be able to meet those needs, and then working up the courage to skillfully communicate those needs. That stuff is hard in everyday life. I mean, who does that on a truly regular basis, Just like communicating what you want for dinner? Who regularly practices asking for help on an ordinary Tuesday. So expecting somebody to access high level communication skills like that in times of stress or grief is a really tall order. It doesn't mean it's unattainable, and it does not mean snarky voice aside. It doesn't mean that support people need to become skilled mind readers in order to deliver the support they want to give. It's just we got to figure out what communicating needs and boundaries even looks like, so we know what to aim for, and then we need to find some ways to practice it on lower stakes things so that when we really need that stuff it feels less weird. That's what we're going to talk about today, and our first listener question gets us into that whole complex human mess. You're ready I work in an e R department. To say it stressful is an understatement. I'm exhausted and burned out and frustrated and scared. Most of the time. I have amazing people in my life. I truly am lucky. It's just they want so badly to make all of this better for me. They work really hard to understand what it's like to be me. They can support me in the ways that I need them to, and I feel like a complete jerk for brushing them off all the time. But I don't think I can give them the answers they need. They want to know what it's like in there in the er, what it's like in there for all of us. How can I help them understand something I don't even have the words for, let alone the energy to describe. This is such a good question, folks. This wasn't the only question of this ilk. Did we use the word ilk anyway, It wasn't the only question like this that we received over the last couple of weeks, Because truly, as much as I snark, people for the most part really do want to be supportive. It's just that we don't really know how to do that, and we accidentally put a whole bunch of emotional labor onto the people that we want to help by asking them to tell us what they need. Yeah, and going back to supporters again. Here we actually do want the people who are going through rough times to articulate their needs for us, so that we can actually be of use. I love all of the impulses in here, the need to be heard and understood, the need to offer truly supportive support. But what I really want to take from all of this is how hard it is to adequately convey a personal experience to the people who most want to know, even if you most want them to know you. Does that make sense? Trying to be known is really really hard. Now, this person is talking about working in the e R and trying to educate and answer their partner or their friends. But this crisis of translation also happens when you lose somebody close to you. It happens anytime we try to convey a deeply personal experience to somebody who wasn't there and isn't living it. Let me use a death related example, since it's the thing I know best. It's like you and your person spoke a unique language together. When one of you dies, you lose the only person who spoke that language, and what most need is to hear that language spoken to you again so you can relax into it. But even if your friends or your therapist wants to speak it for you, you can't just rise out of your pain, teach them the language, then go back into your pain so that they can speak that comfort and connection to you. It's often what's asked of us, this whole help us, help you thing, and it's often what we most need. It's just not realistic. We've covered that sort of crisis of translation when you're working in healthcare. We've covered it in death. This also shows up in chronic illness or injury or disability. It shows up in white folks trying to understand the experience of systemic racism for people of color, like we're looking for people to help us understand their language that we can show up and give the support we want to give. I want to make sure that I stress here that all of this is not a failure of love or support. It's just that rasis of translation that we've been talking about. It's an impossibility. I do wish there was a shorthand to help people outside your experience, understand your experience. I'm going to totally date myself or out myself as a nerd here. Again. I feel like I do this every week, so I should stop doing that disclaimer. Like, y'all hands up. I I watched dorky movies and most of my movie references are going to be a solid fifteen years old, so I don't know, deal with it, okay. So my translation superpower example here from the from the movie world. There's this share movie from I think back in the eighties or early nineties called Powder. I'm gonna try to do a super short synopsis here anyway. The character of Share got hit by lightning while she was pregnant with her son Powder. Powder was born with a lot of really interesting skills, and, as happens very often with people who are different from the heteroonormative standards, he was bullied and teased a lot as a kid. And there's this scene getting to my point here, there's this scene where Powder is out in the woods. Like many of us, misfits, out in the natural world alone is where he feels most himself. So he's out out walking in the woods and he hears a gunshot and he hears a bunch of men shouting, and he goes to this clearing and I tell you, I've used this example no fewer than a hundred times and I choke up every time, But so I mean fair warning here. Uh. He gets to the clearing and there is the football coach and a whole bunch of football players, all of whom have tormented Powder in the past. And the coach has his foot on a neck of a deer and he has shot the deer, not to kill it, but to wound it. And he's telling the football players basically like I don't know. He's bragging about the suffering that he's caused, and powder Man Powder loses shot. Powder goes over, puts one hand on deer and one hand on the coach, and he makes a circuit and he makes the coach feel what the deer feels. And he sits there and he watches the coach's face change as he understands that he is the one that caused the pain that creature is feeling. If I could have any superpower friends, that's the one I'd want. I feel like I'd be able to solve so many failures of love if I could just help people feel for one second what somebody in pain is feeling. It's the Empathy Superpower Share Powder Edition. Okay, anyway, barring that special powder skill, how are we going to handle the fact that the chasm of experience between the person who is struggling and the person who wants to help, that chasm is not crossable. How am I going to answer this listener question and the question that I bet lots of you have too, I'm going to answer it with my go to favorite tool, the process conversation. A process conversation is basically talking about how you talk about things. Instead of getting stuck in endless loops of argument or frustration trying to explain something you can't explain, or justify something you don't need to justify. The process conversation lets you take a step back and hopefully gets you out of those unproductive loops. I'm gonna give you a simple example, and then we're going to dive into how we use this with this listener question. Right, so, if you are always arguing with your flatmate or your partner about whose turn it is to do the dishes right, and you find yourself doing things like I'm going to leave all of these dirty dishes in their bed, because that's how I'm feeling today, right, Not that I've ever done that, but I have thought it. You're going to have the same argument about that over and over and over again. A process conversation would be not in the middle of a hot moment, not like not when somebody just gets home from work, but you want to choose a good moment, and you would say something like, you know, I've noticed that you and I have the same argument over and over again about whose turn it is to do the dishes, and we're not really getting anywhere. Can we talk about how we talk about that? And then you're gonna you know, let's assume in our our fantasy situation here the person says, sure, that's a really frustrating thing. I would love to talk about it. Then you can get into what actually happens when you have a conversation. I noticed that when I bring up the dishes, you often tell me you'll do them later, and then they don't happen, and I find myself feeling like a nag because I'm after you, do you hear where I'm going, Like, we don't need to like role play out this whole dishes situation. I think that's that's going to reveal a lot of personal stuff that I probably shouldn't be revealing. But you can use it on those sorts of things. You're basically talking about the way you're arguing instead of talking about the argument. Yeah. Okay, So going back to our listener question here and that impossible task of translation, here's something you might do if you find yourself in that situation. So you're gonna go to your person who's trying to be helpful, and you might say something like, I know you want to know what it's like in there so you can support me and listen to me. I appreciate that so much. I feel frustrated because I can't truly describe it to you, and trying to just makes it feel worse. What I can say is that you know, by the time I get home, my ability to make full sentences is pretty shot. And what I really crave is some physical comfort, not conversation. Is like having dinner ready when I get home and maybe snuggling with me on the couch for a few minutes. Is that something you could do? You see what we did there to break down the parts a little bit, because I want you to get this, so you start with an eye statement. Classic couples counseling thing here, always start with the eye statement, not the accusation. I know you want to know what it's like in there so that you can support me and listen to me. You're basically like giving a short statement about your understanding of the situation, and then you go to an appreciation moment. I appreciate that so much, or maybe you don't appreciate the moment, but person in that moment, that's okay too. I don't want you to make up things that are fake. We're just gonna roll with it for this example. So the next thing we did was say I appreciate it so much, and then you go to a feeling statement for yourself. I feel frustrated because I truly can't describe it to you. This is a really kind and clear way to say, I can't give you what you're asking for. I wish I could, but I can't. I feel frustrated because I truly can't describe it to you. And then you're going to offer something that you could use. If your support person is asking for a translation, you are not able to give them a translation. But you know that the mechanism underneath there is that they're trying to support you and you could use some support. Let's get on the same page together and find ways that you can both get what you want. So in my example here when I say, what I can say is that my ability to make full sentences is pretty shot by the time I get home. And what I really crave this physical comfort, is that something you can do for me. Right, So we want to go to what is the need running underneath those impossible requests, right the support person asking to really understand what the day is like in there. That is the mechanism by which they're trying to offer you their support. Since we can't deliver that piece, let's find some other ways to deliver the support. Can you maybe do that within your primary circle, or even have a conversation about not being able to do that. I mean, these are like the forever stacking rings of process conversations. You can say something like, even if that little bit that we just did right there, if that is way too much for your system to take, And I feel you because sometimes you can't make any words at all. To have these kinds of high level conversations you can say something really short, like I know you really want to be able to support me. I have nothing in me to help you figure out how to do that right now. I'd be happy to revisit it later, but right now I cannot. That is a way more loving and kind and truthful way of interrupting the cycle of frustration than pushing yourself further than you can go in that time. Yeah, that stuff can feel really really daunting. Remember how I opened the show and I was like, Yeah, nobody really has the bandwidth to do this sort of stuff on ordinary Tuesday, and I'm asking you to do this in really tough conversations. I just want to acknowledge that there that honestly, everybody's capacity is pretty low these days, and all of this takes effort for both the giver and the receiver and the innocent bystanders. So you can even use this format of the process conversation to acknowledge that stuff too. This stuff is actionable, even if it doesn't have a solution in it. In it, you can use a process conversation to give each other a little bit of grace. Okay, when I opened this episode, I said we were going to talk about relationships under stress. And that's not just about the different ways to convey your needs inside a relationship that is generally working for you and one that you hope to keep. We've also got relationships that completely break apart under stress or otherwise become unworkable. The thing is that life stress like this again, whether it's grief or work or the full catastrophe of the outside world, that kind of stress can make fault lines become chasms. So we will get into all of that with a listener question that explores how to say go away forever in the kindest, clearest possible way. Coming up right after this break, Welcome, We're going to dive right into question two. Here. It is I am a GP family physician. In addition to managing the stress of being a helper in my job, I'm often drawn into the position of providing support and help to my extended family members. I'm dealing with our fourth wave in South Africa and have had three deaths in my personal circle in the last six months. I'm burned out and have no time to recover or recharge. How do I balance the needs of those around me with those of my own without alienating the rest of my family. They haven't exactly been great at responding to the boundaries I've set in the past. So for this listeners question, I'm assuming help and support here Where they said I'm often drawn into providing help and support to my extended family members. I'm assuming that that means family members are looking for medical or health information on top of like general life stuff needing support. Yeah, so you can use our process conversation format here too. You can say some thing like I've noticed that I'm often called on to answer your questions about health stuff or help you navigate health concerns. I do that all day at work, and I just can't keep doing it all the time. I need time off from being a doctor so I can recuperate. Can we talk about the ways that you might get the answers you need in another way? Okay, doing our deconstruct here. Notice that I started with an eye statement, not an accusation. I also acknowledge that the person asking for advice has a real need to know. They deserve the information they're looking for, they just can't get it from this listener. Yeah, I'm going to read it again so you don't have to rewind too much. The process conversation that I'm suggesting here is I've noticed that I'm often called on to answer your questions about health stuff or help you navigate health concerns. I do that all day at work, and I just can't keep doing it all the time. I need time off from being a doctor so I can recuperate. Can we talk about the ways you might get the answers you need in another way? Basically, what we've done is reidentify the problem. This person deserves to have their medical or health care needs or concerns or questions answered by a health care professional. That is a valid need. Our health care professional deserves to not be at work twenty four seven, also a valid need. So how are we going to work together to get those needs met? Yeah, so that is one way to handle it. I promised you some drama, So here it is. I want to pick up on the last line there. This listener said, my family hasn't been that great at responding to boundaries I've set in the past. Yeah, here's the thing. You can do the best process conversation with the absolute clearest statement of boundaries, and people will stomp all over them. Humans are a lot What I want you to keep in mind when you go into a process conversation or when you state your boundaries, that your goal here, I mean, our wish, our fantasy is that you get what you want. Yeah, but our goal here is that you have clearly stated a boundary. You have clearly stated what you need and what you expect from the other person. Even doing that beautifully is not guaranteed to result in you getting what you want. I'm sorry, I wish it was. That would be awesome, but humans are still going to human, right, So I want to give you a way to use a process conversation like that that addresses when your boundaries are being ignored, because again, even without nefarious intent, people ignore boundaries. It's just one of those human things. Okay, So here's what you might say. I've noticed that, no matter how many times I've asked to not talk about this, you keep bringing it up. Here's how I'm going to handle your requests in the future, and then you tell them what you what they can expect, like what you're going to do. Right, So, you've already had a process conversation. You've already said here's what you're looking for, here's what I need, here's what I'm willing to do and I'm not willing to do, and yet they still keep doing it. It's like if a neighborhood kid is ringing your doorbell and you've gone to the doorbell, compose yourself, and you're very nice and calm and clear and a very kind adult, and you say, I don't know what you're looking for, but you need to stop bringing my doorbell. Is there something I can help you with? And they say now, and then they go away, and then they come back and they keep bringing your doorbell because their children, and that's what they do. You can come back and say, like we've had this discussion before, here's what you can expect to see happen should you continue during the doorbell right, Expectations and consequences are always part of process conversations. Expectations and consequences are always part of communication, process, conversations, boundary work, relationship skills. So coming back to our listener question here, if you have had a clear conversation with the people around you about what you will and will not you in terms of meeting their needs for health care information, you don't have to have that conversation eighteen more times. I don't want that for you. That's exhausting. We don't want to add to your stress. What I want you to be able to say is we have discussed this. I have been clear about what I will and will not do. Here's what's going to happen. If you keep asking me, I am going to change the subject. I am going to leave the room, I am going to hang up the phone. I will not answer. Right. Boundaries consequences for violating those boundaries. You don't even have to come up with, like a whole collection of things that you're going to say. Every time somebody violates that boundary, say the same thing over and over again. This should be easy for you. Repetition is also useful. Right, Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't say this out loud. But human relationships are also very much like dog training. I am full of metaphors today, I always am, but dog training, right, Like, if you feed the dog to able scraps, they're going to always come to you with tap for table scraps, even if you say no, no begging. Right, But if every time they come to you they don't get anything, they're going to learn that that's not working. So if I've stated my boundary, and my friend keeps asking me for medical advice and I just stop responding to them. They will eventually learn that they're not going to get what they want now. That could mean, in best case scenario, that they realize that they need to go somewhere else for support, and I hope they get that for themselves. They could also decide that they're not into this relationship anymore because you're not the medical advice vending machine you used to be. That's okay too. Not all relationships survive. Sometimes relationships end. I don't want you pulling out all of these great skills and all of your empathy and your compassion and keep showing up to relationships that refuse to serve support or respect you. All relationships are a two way street, but some of them the streets a little rockier than the other side. So great exit line here when you're in these kinds of conversations is I have been clear with my boundaries on this issue. You seem to have a hard time respecting those boundaries. So I'm leaving now, or I'm hanging up or whatever, or I'm happy to talk about something else. But this is not an option. The goal here is to take care of yourself, name what's going on in the relationship or the exchange, and keep yourself out of endless arguments or the need to come up with new reasons or defenses every time somebody ignores your boundaries and an argument by putting on your hat and walking out the door. We will definitely talk more about boundary setting in future episodes because they're everywhere. But this is a good time for a reminder that is okay for you to let go of relationships that don't support or serve you. There is only so much that your best best skills can do. And obviously, if a relationship is abusive or unsafe, I want you to get yourself to safety. Don't try to have a process conversation in there that's not safe. There's one more relational reality that I want to touch on before we close out this thing on relationships and boundaries and all of these things. If you can't actually end a relationship with somebody because it's like a family member or a co worker or something, and you actually have to attend events where they're going to be around, you can remind people ahead of time of your boundaries. I'm happy to attend this bar mitzvah, But I'd like to remind you that I will not be providing medical advice or discussing the pandemic when I'm there see you soon. The actual words are less important than the structure. Here. You're basically setting yourself up for success, and you're also honestly setting the other person up for success. Let me remind you this is what I will do and will not do, and this is what you can expect to see happen if you can't respect that boundary, right, A bit of a heavy show today. Relationships are like that. Though this is messy stuff. Navigating relationships is a really big topic, and honestly, everything we talk about here every single week has to do with relationships in some form. This isn't the only time we're going to talk about this stuff. But before I send you off into the world, vowing to just never have any relationships ever again, so you can avoid all of this boundary stuff and all of these process conversations, we're going to head back into the realm of low stakes, playful situations for your questions to carry with you. Stay tuned. It's going to be easier. I promise we'll be right back each week I leave you with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. It's part of that whole. This stuff gets easier with practice. Thing this week, some low stakes, easy access practice convert stations. Look, there is no way you're suddenly going to try all this stuff I talked about today on some big important interaction issue. I mean, you might if you're feeling all that, and go you if you are, but let's give you something to play with. It doesn't feel quite so daunting a positive process conversation for homework. So one choose somebody you like, send them a text or call them if you're feeling that, and describe some way they interact with you that you really like. For example, you might message your friend, I've noticed that most of the text you send me are of goofy pictures of dogs, and that always makes me laugh. I love how you do that. Thank you? Or you know, I've noticed that I always defer to you on what to have for dinner? Would you like me to decide tonight? The mechanism there is the same as in those harder conversations we talked about, but with much lower steaks. Appreciate somebody for something you notice about them or for the way that they interact and relate with you. Those are process conversations. Work up to the scarier stuff. You can do this. I believe in you. And honestly, remember I've mentioned this before that everything about being human is uncomfortable having these kinds of conversations. Stretching yourself with these skills, that is the kind of discomfort that brings you more awesome. You're going to be uncomfortable either way, So let's practice the stuff that has a better chance of really improving things for you and the people you care about. So give it a go. Let me know how it works for you. You You can tag me on social media, or you can leave a comment under the audio clips that we post from this show on our own social media. Lots of ways to get in touch, including sending me your questions so that I can address them on air. This show is nothing without your questions. It is literally a Q and a show. I use your questions to talk about the wider world. And if you have the question, I will guarantee you that at least I'm going to make up some math here, but I will say that at least asows and other people have the same question. You can ask me anything you'd like. Bring me your clinical questions, your frustrations about work, the boundary, you're having a really hard time enforcing the things that scare you. Ask me how to handle that one thing that always leaves you feeling like a deer in the headlights, and you really want a script for it, Let's talk it out. Call us at three to three six four three three seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find that number in the show notes, or visit us at Megan Divine dot c O. If you'd rather send an email, you can do that too, righte on the website Megan Divine dot c O. We want to hear from you. This show, this world needs your questions. Together, we can make things better even when we can't make them. You know how, when most people are listening for something new to listen to, they're going to scan through the podcast tiles. They're going to land on the show description for Here After with Megan Divine and think I don't want to talk about that stuff. Here's where you come in fronts your reviews. Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In here. We talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making things better for everyone, So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word in your workplace, in your social world. On social media, click through to leave a review because people read reviews, including me. I love your reviews. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions. Want more Hereafter? Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues. Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes. That's an important skill for everyone. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human being trying to make their way in the world after something goes horribly wrong At Megan Divine. That's CEO. Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Kimberly Cowen, Tanya Jujas, and Elizabeth Fasio. Edited by Houston Tilly, with studio support from Chris Urine. Our music is provided by Wave Crush. Sometimes you can't actually end a relationship that is uncomfortable because it's a family member or something hold on, honey, bunny, are you okay? It's okay. Human things happen and we pick it up after Aren't you glad I'm not like a jingle singer all the time. It would be so terrible.

This is Here After and I'm your host, Megan Divine. This week's show is a repeat performance. We'll be back with season two soon enough, but for right now, enjoy this episode and visit the back catalog of episodes two while you're at it. This is Here After and I'm your Host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle big questions from therapists, doctors, and other helpful folks that let us explore how to show up after life goes horribly wrong. This week, Relationships under Stress. Look, grief is hard, any kind of grief, death or break up, loss of your sense of the world as a good and safe place in which to live, the grief that collects day after day in your line of work, all of it. When you're going through hard times, it's often your relationships that take the brunt of all that stress. And the truth is not every relationship will survive. Stay tuned to find out how to deal with all that stuff and pick up some communication tips right after this first break before we get started, one quick note, while I hope you find a lot of useful information in our time here together, This show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Hey, friends, So this week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to, wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. You've got competing needs, conditioning from childhood and other personal experiences that colors how you relate to people, and some completely normal but often uncomfortable ways of communicating, like either avoiding the conflict or instigating the conflict. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. So this thing happens every time I start talking about how to support somebody inside grief or stress us or the ways that even with our best intentions, we kind of fail. The people that were wanting to support somebody always says, if you want better support, you just have to communicate your needs to the people around you. Okay, I've tried to say that several times without my snarky voice, but I can't. I also kind of can't, like help roll my eyes when I hear stuff like this, Like it happens all the time. If you want better support, you have to tell people what you need. They're not mind readers. Okay, here's the thing, though, identifying what you need in any given situation, then figuring out who might be able to meet those needs, and then working up the courage to skillfully communicate those needs. That stuff is hard in everyday life. I mean, who does that on a truly regular basis, Just like communicating what you want for dinner? Who regularly practices asking for help on an ordinary Tuesday. So expecting somebody to access high level communication skills like that in times of stress or grief is a really tall order. It doesn't mean it's unattainable, and it does not mean snarky voice aside. It doesn't mean that support people need to become skilled mind readers in order to deliver the support they want to give. It's just we got to figure out what communicating needs and boundaries even looks like, so we know what to aim for, and then we need to find some ways to practice it on lower stakes things so that when we really need that stuff it feels less weird. That's what we're going to talk about today, and our first listener question gets us into that whole complex human mess. You're ready I work in an e R department. To say it stressful is an understatement. I'm exhausted and burned out and frustrated and scared. Most of the time. I have amazing people in my life. I truly am lucky. It's just they want so badly to make all of this better for me. They work really hard to understand what it's like to be me. They can support me in the ways that I need them to, and I feel like a complete jerk for brushing them off all the time. But I don't think I can give them the answers they need. They want to know what it's like in there in the er, what it's like in there for all of us. How can I help them understand something I don't even have the words for, let alone the energy to describe. This is such a good question, folks. This wasn't the only question of this ilk. Did we use the word ilk anyway, It wasn't the only question like this that we received over the last couple of weeks, Because truly, as much as I snark, people for the most part really do want to be supportive. It's just that we don't really know how to do that, and we accidentally put a whole bunch of emotional labor onto the people that we want to help by asking them to tell us what they need. Yeah, and going back to supporters again. Here we actually do want the people who are going through rough times to articulate their needs for us, so that we can actually be of use. I love all of the impulses in here, the need to be heard and understood, the need to offer truly supportive support. But what I really want to take from all of this is how hard it is to adequately convey a personal experience to the people who most want to know, even if you most want them to know you. Does that make sense? Trying to be known is really really hard. Now, this person is talking about working in the e R and trying to educate and answer their partner or their friends. But this crisis of translation also happens when you lose somebody close to you. It happens anytime we try to convey a deeply personal experience to somebody who wasn't there and isn't living it. Let me use a death related example, since it's the thing I know best. It's like you and your person spoke a unique language together. When one of you dies, you lose the only person who spoke that language, and what most need is to hear that language spoken to you again so you can relax into it. But even if your friends or your therapist wants to speak it for you, you can't just rise out of your pain, teach them the language, then go back into your pain so that they can speak that comfort and connection to you. It's often what's asked of us, this whole help us, help you thing, and it's often what we most need. It's just not realistic. We've covered that sort of crisis of translation when you're working in healthcare. We've covered it in death. This also shows up in chronic illness or injury or disability. It shows up in white folks trying to understand the experience of systemic racism for people of color, like we're looking for people to help us understand their language that we can show up and give the support we want to give. I want to make sure that I stress here that all of this is not a failure of love or support. It's just that rasis of translation that we've been talking about. It's an impossibility. I do wish there was a shorthand to help people outside your experience, understand your experience. I'm going to totally date myself or out myself as a nerd here. Again. I feel like I do this every week, so I should stop doing that disclaimer. Like, y'all hands up. I I watched dorky movies and most of my movie references are going to be a solid fifteen years old, so I don't know, deal with it, okay. So my translation superpower example here from the from the movie world. There's this share movie from I think back in the eighties or early nineties called Powder. I'm gonna try to do a super short synopsis here anyway. The character of Share got hit by lightning while she was pregnant with her son Powder. Powder was born with a lot of really interesting skills, and, as happens very often with people who are different from the heteroonormative standards, he was bullied and teased a lot as a kid. And there's this scene getting to my point here, there's this scene where Powder is out in the woods. Like many of us, misfits, out in the natural world alone is where he feels most himself. So he's out out walking in the woods and he hears a gunshot and he hears a bunch of men shouting, and he goes to this clearing and I tell you, I've used this example no fewer than a hundred times and I choke up every time, But so I mean fair warning here. Uh. He gets to the clearing and there is the football coach and a whole bunch of football players, all of whom have tormented Powder in the past. And the coach has his foot on a neck of a deer and he has shot the deer, not to kill it, but to wound it. And he's telling the football players basically like I don't know. He's bragging about the suffering that he's caused, and powder Man Powder loses shot. Powder goes over, puts one hand on deer and one hand on the coach, and he makes a circuit and he makes the coach feel what the deer feels. And he sits there and he watches the coach's face change as he understands that he is the one that caused the pain that creature is feeling. If I could have any superpower friends, that's the one I'd want. I feel like I'd be able to solve so many failures of love if I could just help people feel for one second what somebody in pain is feeling. It's the Empathy Superpower Share Powder Edition. Okay, anyway, barring that special powder skill, how are we going to handle the fact that the chasm of experience between the person who is struggling and the person who wants to help, that chasm is not crossable. How am I going to answer this listener question and the question that I bet lots of you have too, I'm going to answer it with my go to favorite tool, the process conversation. A process conversation is basically talking about how you talk about things. Instead of getting stuck in endless loops of argument or frustration trying to explain something you can't explain, or justify something you don't need to justify. The process conversation lets you take a step back and hopefully gets you out of those unproductive loops. I'm gonna give you a simple example, and then we're going to dive into how we use this with this listener question. Right, so, if you are always arguing with your flatmate or your partner about whose turn it is to do the dishes right, and you find yourself doing things like I'm going to leave all of these dirty dishes in their bed, because that's how I'm feeling today, right, Not that I've ever done that, but I have thought it. You're going to have the same argument about that over and over and over again. A process conversation would be not in the middle of a hot moment, not like not when somebody just gets home from work, but you want to choose a good moment, and you would say something like, you know, I've noticed that you and I have the same argument over and over again about whose turn it is to do the dishes, and we're not really getting anywhere. Can we talk about how we talk about that? And then you're gonna you know, let's assume in our our fantasy situation here the person says, sure, that's a really frustrating thing. I would love to talk about it. Then you can get into what actually happens when you have a conversation. I noticed that when I bring up the dishes, you often tell me you'll do them later, and then they don't happen, and I find myself feeling like a nag because I'm after you, do you hear where I'm going, Like, we don't need to like role play out this whole dishes situation. I think that's that's going to reveal a lot of personal stuff that I probably shouldn't be revealing. But you can use it on those sorts of things. You're basically talking about the way you're arguing instead of talking about the argument. Yeah. Okay, So going back to our listener question here and that impossible task of translation, here's something you might do if you find yourself in that situation. So you're gonna go to your person who's trying to be helpful, and you might say something like, I know you want to know what it's like in there so you can support me and listen to me. I appreciate that so much. I feel frustrated because I can't truly describe it to you, and trying to just makes it feel worse. What I can say is that you know, by the time I get home, my ability to make full sentences is pretty shot. And what I really crave is some physical comfort, not conversation. Is like having dinner ready when I get home and maybe snuggling with me on the couch for a few minutes. Is that something you could do? You see what we did there to break down the parts a little bit, because I want you to get this, so you start with an eye statement. Classic couples counseling thing here, always start with the eye statement, not the accusation. I know you want to know what it's like in there so that you can support me and listen to me. You're basically like giving a short statement about your understanding of the situation, and then you go to an appreciation moment. I appreciate that so much, or maybe you don't appreciate the moment, but person in that moment, that's okay too. I don't want you to make up things that are fake. We're just gonna roll with it for this example. So the next thing we did was say I appreciate it so much, and then you go to a feeling statement for yourself. I feel frustrated because I truly can't describe it to you. This is a really kind and clear way to say, I can't give you what you're asking for. I wish I could, but I can't. I feel frustrated because I truly can't describe it to you. And then you're going to offer something that you could use. If your support person is asking for a translation, you are not able to give them a translation. But you know that the mechanism underneath there is that they're trying to support you and you could use some support. Let's get on the same page together and find ways that you can both get what you want. So in my example here when I say, what I can say is that my ability to make full sentences is pretty shot by the time I get home. And what I really crave this physical comfort, is that something you can do for me. Right, So we want to go to what is the need running underneath those impossible requests, right the support person asking to really understand what the day is like in there. That is the mechanism by which they're trying to offer you their support. Since we can't deliver that piece, let's find some other ways to deliver the support. Can you maybe do that within your primary circle, or even have a conversation about not being able to do that. I mean, these are like the forever stacking rings of process conversations. You can say something like, even if that little bit that we just did right there, if that is way too much for your system to take, And I feel you because sometimes you can't make any words at all. To have these kinds of high level conversations you can say something really short, like I know you really want to be able to support me. I have nothing in me to help you figure out how to do that right now. I'd be happy to revisit it later, but right now I cannot. That is a way more loving and kind and truthful way of interrupting the cycle of frustration than pushing yourself further than you can go in that time. Yeah, that stuff can feel really really daunting. Remember how I opened the show and I was like, Yeah, nobody really has the bandwidth to do this sort of stuff on ordinary Tuesday, and I'm asking you to do this in really tough conversations. I just want to acknowledge that there that honestly, everybody's capacity is pretty low these days, and all of this takes effort for both the giver and the receiver and the innocent bystanders. So you can even use this format of the process conversation to acknowledge that stuff too. This stuff is actionable, even if it doesn't have a solution in it. In it, you can use a process conversation to give each other a little bit of grace. Okay, when I opened this episode, I said we were going to talk about relationships under stress. And that's not just about the different ways to convey your needs inside a relationship that is generally working for you and one that you hope to keep. We've also got relationships that completely break apart under stress or otherwise become unworkable. The thing is that life stress like this again, whether it's grief or work or the full catastrophe of the outside world, that kind of stress can make fault lines become chasms. So we will get into all of that with a listener question that explores how to say go away forever in the kindest, clearest possible way. Coming up right after this break, Welcome, We're going to dive right into question two. Here. It is I am a GP family physician. In addition to managing the stress of being a helper in my job, I'm often drawn into the position of providing support and help to my extended family members. I'm dealing with our fourth wave in South Africa and have had three deaths in my personal circle in the last six months. I'm burned out and have no time to recover or recharge. How do I balance the needs of those around me with those of my own without alienating the rest of my family. They haven't exactly been great at responding to the boundaries I've set in the past. So for this listeners question, I'm assuming help and support here Where they said I'm often drawn into providing help and support to my extended family members. I'm assuming that that means family members are looking for medical or health information on top of like general life stuff needing support. Yeah, so you can use our process conversation format here too. You can say some thing like I've noticed that I'm often called on to answer your questions about health stuff or help you navigate health concerns. I do that all day at work, and I just can't keep doing it all the time. I need time off from being a doctor so I can recuperate. Can we talk about the ways that you might get the answers you need in another way? Okay, doing our deconstruct here. Notice that I started with an eye statement, not an accusation. I also acknowledge that the person asking for advice has a real need to know. They deserve the information they're looking for, they just can't get it from this listener. Yeah, I'm going to read it again so you don't have to rewind too much. The process conversation that I'm suggesting here is I've noticed that I'm often called on to answer your questions about health stuff or help you navigate health concerns. I do that all day at work, and I just can't keep doing it all the time. I need time off from being a doctor so I can recuperate. Can we talk about the ways you might get the answers you need in another way? Basically, what we've done is reidentify the problem. This person deserves to have their medical or health care needs or concerns or questions answered by a health care professional. That is a valid need. Our health care professional deserves to not be at work twenty four seven, also a valid need. So how are we going to work together to get those needs met? Yeah, so that is one way to handle it. I promised you some drama, So here it is. I want to pick up on the last line there. This listener said, my family hasn't been that great at responding to boundaries I've set in the past. Yeah, here's the thing. You can do the best process conversation with the absolute clearest statement of boundaries, and people will stomp all over them. Humans are a lot What I want you to keep in mind when you go into a process conversation or when you state your boundaries, that your goal here, I mean, our wish, our fantasy is that you get what you want. Yeah, but our goal here is that you have clearly stated a boundary. You have clearly stated what you need and what you expect from the other person. Even doing that beautifully is not guaranteed to result in you getting what you want. I'm sorry, I wish it was. That would be awesome, but humans are still going to human, right, So I want to give you a way to use a process conversation like that that addresses when your boundaries are being ignored, because again, even without nefarious intent, people ignore boundaries. It's just one of those human things. Okay, So here's what you might say. I've noticed that, no matter how many times I've asked to not talk about this, you keep bringing it up. Here's how I'm going to handle your requests in the future, and then you tell them what you what they can expect, like what you're going to do. Right, So, you've already had a process conversation. You've already said here's what you're looking for, here's what I need, here's what I'm willing to do and I'm not willing to do, and yet they still keep doing it. It's like if a neighborhood kid is ringing your doorbell and you've gone to the doorbell, compose yourself, and you're very nice and calm and clear and a very kind adult, and you say, I don't know what you're looking for, but you need to stop bringing my doorbell. Is there something I can help you with? And they say now, and then they go away, and then they come back and they keep bringing your doorbell because their children, and that's what they do. You can come back and say, like we've had this discussion before, here's what you can expect to see happen should you continue during the doorbell right, Expectations and consequences are always part of process conversations. Expectations and consequences are always part of communication, process, conversations, boundary work, relationship skills. So coming back to our listener question here, if you have had a clear conversation with the people around you about what you will and will not you in terms of meeting their needs for health care information, you don't have to have that conversation eighteen more times. I don't want that for you. That's exhausting. We don't want to add to your stress. What I want you to be able to say is we have discussed this. I have been clear about what I will and will not do. Here's what's going to happen. If you keep asking me, I am going to change the subject. I am going to leave the room, I am going to hang up the phone. I will not answer. Right. Boundaries consequences for violating those boundaries. You don't even have to come up with, like a whole collection of things that you're going to say. Every time somebody violates that boundary, say the same thing over and over again. This should be easy for you. Repetition is also useful. Right, Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't say this out loud. But human relationships are also very much like dog training. I am full of metaphors today, I always am, but dog training, right, Like, if you feed the dog to able scraps, they're going to always come to you with tap for table scraps, even if you say no, no begging. Right, But if every time they come to you they don't get anything, they're going to learn that that's not working. So if I've stated my boundary, and my friend keeps asking me for medical advice and I just stop responding to them. They will eventually learn that they're not going to get what they want now. That could mean, in best case scenario, that they realize that they need to go somewhere else for support, and I hope they get that for themselves. They could also decide that they're not into this relationship anymore because you're not the medical advice vending machine you used to be. That's okay too. Not all relationships survive. Sometimes relationships end. I don't want you pulling out all of these great skills and all of your empathy and your compassion and keep showing up to relationships that refuse to serve support or respect you. All relationships are a two way street, but some of them the streets a little rockier than the other side. So great exit line here when you're in these kinds of conversations is I have been clear with my boundaries on this issue. You seem to have a hard time respecting those boundaries. So I'm leaving now, or I'm hanging up or whatever, or I'm happy to talk about something else. But this is not an option. The goal here is to take care of yourself, name what's going on in the relationship or the exchange, and keep yourself out of endless arguments or the need to come up with new reasons or defenses every time somebody ignores your boundaries and an argument by putting on your hat and walking out the door. We will definitely talk more about boundary setting in future episodes because they're everywhere. But this is a good time for a reminder that is okay for you to let go of relationships that don't support or serve you. There is only so much that your best best skills can do. And obviously, if a relationship is abusive or unsafe, I want you to get yourself to safety. Don't try to have a process conversation in there that's not safe. There's one more relational reality that I want to touch on before we close out this thing on relationships and boundaries and all of these things. If you can't actually end a relationship with somebody because it's like a family member or a co worker or something, and you actually have to attend events where they're going to be around, you can remind people ahead of time of your boundaries. I'm happy to attend this bar mitzvah, But I'd like to remind you that I will not be providing medical advice or discussing the pandemic when I'm there see you soon. The actual words are less important than the structure. Here. You're basically setting yourself up for success, and you're also honestly setting the other person up for success. Let me remind you this is what I will do and will not do, and this is what you can expect to see happen if you can't respect that boundary, right, A bit of a heavy show today. Relationships are like that. Though this is messy stuff. Navigating relationships is a really big topic, and honestly, everything we talk about here every single week has to do with relationships in some form. This isn't the only time we're going to talk about this stuff. But before I send you off into the world, vowing to just never have any relationships ever again, so you can avoid all of this boundary stuff and all of these process conversations, we're going to head back into the realm of low stakes, playful situations for your questions to carry with you. Stay tuned. It's going to be easier. I promise we'll be right back each week I leave you with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. It's part of that whole. This stuff gets easier with practice. Thing this week, some low stakes, easy access practice convert stations. Look, there is no way you're suddenly going to try all this stuff I talked about today on some big important interaction issue. I mean, you might if you're feeling all that, and go you if you are, but let's give you something to play with. It doesn't feel quite so daunting a positive process conversation for homework. So one choose somebody you like, send them a text or call them if you're feeling that, and describe some way they interact with you that you really like. For example, you might message your friend, I've noticed that most of the text you send me are of goofy pictures of dogs, and that always makes me laugh. I love how you do that. Thank you? Or you know, I've noticed that I always defer to you on what to have for dinner? Would you like me to decide tonight? The mechanism there is the same as in those harder conversations we talked about, but with much lower steaks. Appreciate somebody for something you notice about them or for the way that they interact and relate with you. Those are process conversations. Work up to the scarier stuff. You can do this. I believe in you. And honestly, remember I've mentioned this before that everything about being human is uncomfortable having these kinds of conversations. Stretching yourself with these skills, that is the kind of discomfort that brings you more awesome. You're going to be uncomfortable either way, So let's practice the stuff that has a better chance of really improving things for you and the people you care about. So give it a go. Let me know how it works for you. You You can tag me on social media, or you can leave a comment under the audio clips that we post from this show on our own social media. Lots of ways to get in touch, including sending me your questions so that I can address them on air. This show is nothing without your questions. It is literally a Q and a show. I use your questions to talk about the wider world. And if you have the question, I will guarantee you that at least I'm going to make up some math here, but I will say that at least asows and other people have the same question. You can ask me anything you'd like. Bring me your clinical questions, your frustrations about work, the boundary, you're having a really hard time enforcing the things that scare you. Ask me how to handle that one thing that always leaves you feeling like a deer in the headlights, and you really want a script for it, Let's talk it out. Call us at three to three six four three three seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find that number in the show notes, or visit us at Megan Divine dot c O. If you'd rather send an email, you can do that too, righte on the website Megan Divine dot c O. We want to hear from you. This show, this world needs your questions. Together, we can make things better even when we can't make them. You know how, when most people are listening for something new to listen to, they're going to scan through the podcast tiles. They're going to land on the show description for Here After with Megan Divine and think I don't want to talk about that stuff. Here's where you come in fronts your reviews. Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In here. We talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making things better for everyone, So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word in your workplace, in your social world. On social media, click through to leave a review because people read reviews, including me. I love your reviews. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions. Want more Hereafter? Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues. Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes. That's an important skill for everyone. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human being trying to make their way in the world after something goes horribly wrong At Megan Divine. That's CEO. Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Kimberly Cowen, Tanya Jujas, and Elizabeth Fasio. Edited by Houston Tilly, with studio support from Chris Urine. Our music is provided by Wave Crush. Sometimes you can't actually end a relationship that is uncomfortable because it's a family member or something hold on, honey, bunny, are you okay? It's okay. Human things happen and we pick it up after Aren't you glad I'm not like a jingle singer all the time. It would be so terrible.