The first nobilities that there is suffering, and I remember as a young kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging that things are hard, that they're suffering in life, that it's real because I grew up in a space where most people were telling me what I was thinking was happening wasn't happening, and everything was just fine, and it wasn't fine.

The first nobilities that there is suffering, and I remember as a young kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging that things are hard, that they're suffering in life, that it's real because I grew up in a space where most people were telling me what I was thinking was happening wasn't happening, and everything was just fine, and it wasn't fine.

This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm Megan Divine. This week, one of my favorite people on the planet returns to the show, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to talk about his book Untangled and how the real work of spiritual practice is turning to face what hurts, not trying to rise above it. There is no spiritual bypassing allowed here, friends, ever, but certainly not in this episode. Stay tuned and I will be right back after this first break. Before we get started, two quick notes. One, this episode is an encore performance. I am on break working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some of these conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, this show is not a substitute for skilled support, but a licensemental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections out into your world and.

This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm Megan Divine. This week, one of my favorite people on the planet returns to the show, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to talk about his book Untangled and how the real work of spiritual practice is turning to face what hurts, not trying to rise above it. There is no spiritual bypassing allowed here, friends, ever, but certainly not in this episode. Stay tuned and I will be right back after this first break. Before we get started, two quick notes. One, this episode is an encore performance. I am on break working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some of these conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, this show is not a substitute for skilled support, but a licensemental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections out into your world and.

Talk about it.

Talk about it.

Hey, today's guest is an old friend of mine, an old friend from way back in season one of the podcast. He's back because he's got a new book out called Untangled Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. But I'll tell you the truth, a little secret. I have him back on the show because his presence is like medicine for me personally, his words, his way of looking at the world, and his silliness, especially his silliness. I always feel somehow both calm and joyful after spending time with him, even when we talk about difficult or painful things. Kohin Paley Ellison is an author, a zen teacher, and a Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care with his husband Shodo. Robert Campbell, and Koshin's newest book is Untangled, Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. As I mentioned earlier, now, it is not important that you know what the Eightfold Path is or what the foreign Noble Truths are in order to get something beautiful and useful out of today's episode. But in a very brief nutshell, in case you want to know, think of the four Noble truths like a concise description of the human condition. Suffering exists, it has a cause, it has an end, and there is a path or a practice that will help you find the end to suffering. That path is called the Middle Way. Now side note here, if you have read my book It's okay that you're not okay, you might remember that there is a short little section on the Teachings of the Buddha in my book where I talk about the middle Way. So if you're like, I've heard this before, that might be it. The middle Way introduces us to the noble Eightfold Path, which is what helps us find the cessation of suffering. It is not an eight step plan to pretending that things don't suck. The point of practice, and the point of Koshin's new book is that if you can find your own roots, your own center inside difficult times, you can tend to your pain in ways that make it a lot less likely your pain will fester and cause more harm aka suffering. That's going to all make a lot more sense when you listen to this week's show, So for now, just let that part wash over you. Now, a couple of content notes for today's episode. The real power of Koshin's work is that it's rooted in intense pain and suffering. He really knows intimately and personally the power of the tools he teaches. You'll hear him tell a very intense story of anti semitism in his childhood and how that experience affects him to this day. He does that so that he can talk about the ways that Buddhism has helped him engage with what happened to him in ways that make that memory easier to endure. So one content note, there is a graphic description of antisemitism in this episode, and two a reminder that anti Semitism is not a thing of the distant past. It is here, now, present and growing. I shall hear Koshins say in this episode, all violence has suffering at its root. All right, that's enough prep out of me. I hope you find so much to carry with you in this episode. Friends, Koshin's joy shines through everything he does, and I'm so happy to share his wisdom and his presence with you here again. Hello, my friend. I am so glad to be back. And of course we have been chatting before this, and I feel like we could get together for this show once a season for years and years and years and years and just sort of vaguely chat about everything forever. But this time, this time, we are here to talk about your new book and why it matters in this moment, individually and collectively. So I want to hear about two things before we really get rolling. And I'm doing this because I know how conversations with you go. You say something and it reminds me of something else, and then we're before we know it, those horses have not only left the barn, but they are in Arkansas and we started in California. So two things that I want to know from you before we get rolling. First, can you tell us about your new book? And second can you give a little primer on the Buddhist eightfold path so that people know what we're referring to as we talk about it.

Hey, today's guest is an old friend of mine, an old friend from way back in season one of the podcast. He's back because he's got a new book out called Untangled Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. But I'll tell you the truth, a little secret. I have him back on the show because his presence is like medicine for me personally, his words, his way of looking at the world, and his silliness, especially his silliness. I always feel somehow both calm and joyful after spending time with him, even when we talk about difficult or painful things. Kohin Paley Ellison is an author, a zen teacher, and a Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care with his husband Shodo. Robert Campbell, and Koshin's newest book is Untangled, Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. As I mentioned earlier, now, it is not important that you know what the Eightfold Path is or what the foreign Noble Truths are in order to get something beautiful and useful out of today's episode. But in a very brief nutshell, in case you want to know, think of the four Noble truths like a concise description of the human condition. Suffering exists, it has a cause, it has an end, and there is a path or a practice that will help you find the end to suffering. That path is called the Middle Way. Now side note here, if you have read my book It's okay that you're not okay, you might remember that there is a short little section on the Teachings of the Buddha in my book where I talk about the middle Way. So if you're like, I've heard this before, that might be it. The middle Way introduces us to the noble Eightfold Path, which is what helps us find the cessation of suffering. It is not an eight step plan to pretending that things don't suck. The point of practice, and the point of Koshin's new book is that if you can find your own roots, your own center inside difficult times, you can tend to your pain in ways that make it a lot less likely your pain will fester and cause more harm aka suffering. That's going to all make a lot more sense when you listen to this week's show, So for now, just let that part wash over you. Now, a couple of content notes for today's episode. The real power of Koshin's work is that it's rooted in intense pain and suffering. He really knows intimately and personally the power of the tools he teaches. You'll hear him tell a very intense story of anti semitism in his childhood and how that experience affects him to this day. He does that so that he can talk about the ways that Buddhism has helped him engage with what happened to him in ways that make that memory easier to endure. So one content note, there is a graphic description of antisemitism in this episode, and two a reminder that anti Semitism is not a thing of the distant past. It is here, now, present and growing. I shall hear Koshins say in this episode, all violence has suffering at its root. All right, that's enough prep out of me. I hope you find so much to carry with you in this episode. Friends, Koshin's joy shines through everything he does, and I'm so happy to share his wisdom and his presence with you here again. Hello, my friend. I am so glad to be back. And of course we have been chatting before this, and I feel like we could get together for this show once a season for years and years and years and years and just sort of vaguely chat about everything forever. But this time, this time, we are here to talk about your new book and why it matters in this moment, individually and collectively. So I want to hear about two things before we really get rolling. And I'm doing this because I know how conversations with you go. You say something and it reminds me of something else, and then we're before we know it, those horses have not only left the barn, but they are in Arkansas and we started in California. So two things that I want to know from you before we get rolling. First, can you tell us about your new book? And second can you give a little primer on the Buddhist eightfold path so that people know what we're referring to as we talk about it.

So, first of all, it's really sweet to see you and thank you. Yeah. So the new book, Untangled.

So, first of all, it's really sweet to see you and thank you. Yeah. So the new book, Untangled.

Is really a book that I've been in some ways living for the last couple of decades and really looking at how we can actually address the gap.

Is really a book that I've been in some ways living for the last couple of decades and really looking at how we can actually address the gap.

Between what we all kind of know.

Between what we all kind of know.

If we pause for a second and you say, what do I really value? What do I really care about? What are the things that I care about? What activities that are nourishing to me, the people, and actually what we're doing with our time? And so for me, the forl Noble Truths and they both have are exactly the medicine to address that gap that we kind of all know. And I think it's a gap of anxiety. It's a gap of aversion from our discomfort for what feels hard. We don't want to do something that's hard, and to be with our grief, to be with our sadness, to be with our anger, to be with our greed. You know, we just fill in, you know, and cover over what is most important, and then we end up living our lives, or we can end up living our lives actually just always far away from what we most care about. And so, you know, the historical Liddho was so smart and often he has thought of as the great position and as the great position. One of the reasons why he's known is that is because he diagnosed the problem, which is that there's suffering, that there is tangled that there's you know, as my grandmother would say, it was souris you know, like basically it hurts, and we feel confused and overwhelmed and all of this stuff. And the first nobility is that there is suffering. And I remember as a young kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging that things are hard, that they're suffering in life, that it's real. Because I grew up in a space where most people were telling me what I was thinking was happening wasn't happening, and everything was just fine, and it wasn't fine.

If we pause for a second and you say, what do I really value? What do I really care about? What are the things that I care about? What activities that are nourishing to me, the people, and actually what we're doing with our time? And so for me, the forl Noble Truths and they both have are exactly the medicine to address that gap that we kind of all know. And I think it's a gap of anxiety. It's a gap of aversion from our discomfort for what feels hard. We don't want to do something that's hard, and to be with our grief, to be with our sadness, to be with our anger, to be with our greed. You know, we just fill in, you know, and cover over what is most important, and then we end up living our lives, or we can end up living our lives actually just always far away from what we most care about. And so, you know, the historical Liddho was so smart and often he has thought of as the great position and as the great position. One of the reasons why he's known is that is because he diagnosed the problem, which is that there's suffering, that there is tangled that there's you know, as my grandmother would say, it was souris you know, like basically it hurts, and we feel confused and overwhelmed and all of this stuff. And the first nobility is that there is suffering. And I remember as a young kid feeling so grateful for someone acknowledging that things are hard, that they're suffering in life, that it's real. Because I grew up in a space where most people were telling me what I was thinking was happening wasn't happening, and everything was just fine, and it wasn't fine.

So hearing that first.

So hearing that first.

Nobility and the nobility of suffering, that that it's noble, you know, that we can actually sit in nobility and realize that yes, I feel tangled up and that there is something about honoring that that I feel like a mess where I feel terrible. And the second nobility are these giants of what I think of as giants because they giants exist in pretty much any culture where they're kind of like the giant size of what we is normally you know, smaller, which is greed and resentment and delusion and oh boy, and to really jump into that, these are what caused the suffering, caused the tangle, and to me, there to really honor, you know, to really see clearly with acuity, with a loving acuity of attention. And I feel like that's probably the most important, is to really look at really carefully in a loving tender way, like, oh, I'm so greedy, I you know, I know for much of my life, you know, I was holding onto this feeling of victimization. I was really sure because of you know, the different kinds of abuse that I experienced that it made me a victim, which on one hand I was, you know, those things happened, and what was extra is my greed of holding onto like that's who I was. When I realized, like I had, terrible things happened to me and many wonderful things, but I was kind of holding on to one side of that as an identity. So it's kind of a different way of understanding greed. You know, sometimes we understand greed which is also a cause of suffering, which is trying to get stuff in the world. You know, if my teacher thought I was a good person, or if I got a car or an iPhone or whatever that is, you know, or people like me that can be agreed to, like the desire to be liked and all those different ways, and so so greed is one of them the causes of our suffering and then resentment holding on holding on to like.

Nobility and the nobility of suffering, that that it's noble, you know, that we can actually sit in nobility and realize that yes, I feel tangled up and that there is something about honoring that that I feel like a mess where I feel terrible. And the second nobility are these giants of what I think of as giants because they giants exist in pretty much any culture where they're kind of like the giant size of what we is normally you know, smaller, which is greed and resentment and delusion and oh boy, and to really jump into that, these are what caused the suffering, caused the tangle, and to me, there to really honor, you know, to really see clearly with acuity, with a loving acuity of attention. And I feel like that's probably the most important, is to really look at really carefully in a loving tender way, like, oh, I'm so greedy, I you know, I know for much of my life, you know, I was holding onto this feeling of victimization. I was really sure because of you know, the different kinds of abuse that I experienced that it made me a victim, which on one hand I was, you know, those things happened, and what was extra is my greed of holding onto like that's who I was. When I realized, like I had, terrible things happened to me and many wonderful things, but I was kind of holding on to one side of that as an identity. So it's kind of a different way of understanding greed. You know, sometimes we understand greed which is also a cause of suffering, which is trying to get stuff in the world. You know, if my teacher thought I was a good person, or if I got a car or an iPhone or whatever that is, you know, or people like me that can be agreed to, like the desire to be liked and all those different ways, and so so greed is one of them the causes of our suffering and then resentment holding on holding on to like.

That kind of anger that where we just.

That kind of anger that where we just.

Like hold it and hold it and hold it. It just corrodes, corrodes away. And I know for me, you know too, I'm in my own experience. And this is one of the things that was really important for me in writing this, is to really get into that spaces myself so that I could walk with you the reader, to really say, like, I have my experience and what is yours? And you know, that feeling of resentment towards the people who had perpetrated against me, Like I really held onto this like and it became like a black bile, you know, like you just like look and really seeing that, just seeing like how we hold on to resentment and what it does to us.

Like hold it and hold it and hold it. It just corrodes, corrodes away. And I know for me, you know too, I'm in my own experience. And this is one of the things that was really important for me in writing this, is to really get into that spaces myself so that I could walk with you the reader, to really say, like, I have my experience and what is yours? And you know, that feeling of resentment towards the people who had perpetrated against me, Like I really held onto this like and it became like a black bile, you know, like you just like look and really seeing that, just seeing like how we hold on to resentment and what it does to us.

What does the greed do to us? You know?

What does the greed do to us? You know?

In the last one's delusion where we kind of separate, we are delusive because we think that we're alone. To me, that's the fundamental delusion, is that we're alone. And you know, for one of my favorite antidotes to that is just to look up and look around and realize that we're just part of the world and it's our delusion that we're not. To me, the fun delusion of separateness is really like when we have the feeling of being alone and then turning it into a truth, you know, and how often instead of feeling our feelings and letting the feelings just flow like a river and we can sit on the bank and just watch all those thoughts and feelings flow around and learning how to see that instead of identifying of that's who I am, I am that feeling of alone.

In the last one's delusion where we kind of separate, we are delusive because we think that we're alone. To me, that's the fundamental delusion, is that we're alone. And you know, for one of my favorite antidotes to that is just to look up and look around and realize that we're just part of the world and it's our delusion that we're not. To me, the fun delusion of separateness is really like when we have the feeling of being alone and then turning it into a truth, you know, and how often instead of feeling our feelings and letting the feelings just flow like a river and we can sit on the bank and just watch all those thoughts and feelings flow around and learning how to see that instead of identifying of that's who I am, I am that feeling of alone.

I love that you started all of this with the acknowledgment of suffering. I also like we're probably going to pull out what you said about that first truth of the nobility of suffering, being able to look at the world and say ouch.

I love that you started all of this with the acknowledgment of suffering. I also like we're probably going to pull out what you said about that first truth of the nobility of suffering, being able to look at the world and say ouch.

Right.

Right.

One of the things that irritates me about spiritual bypassing is that we take these intensely deep and beautiful and useful, single, simple, simple in air quotes here, simple teachings and twist them to our own nefarious devices. Right, like to be able to say, like yea, yeah, yeah, life is pain. You have to get over it. You have to move on. That happened to you, but you can't let it define you. That is not what the Buddha taughte and that is not what the apl path is about. It is not about saying yeah, yeah, yeah, this terrible stuff happened to you, but you have to not hold on to it. You have to let go of your feelings about what happened to you. I feel like we could spend an entire lifetime just studying thing one which is ouch and giving space to letting things hurt and seeing our hurt in ourselves and seeing the hurt in the people around us, and seeing the things that hurt in the world and giving that breathing space. And if we can't do that, it makes it really difficult to go into all of the things that you just described about noticing your feelings and getting untangled and working with resentment and looking at the ways that in a way, painful things get weaponized, whether by the world outside not seeing you and not recognizing the truth of what you're living, and therefore we get sort of resentful of like if you're not gonna see me, then I'm going to make sure you see me. Right, pain passed to the outside world or that sort of spiritual bypassing of it's not quote unquote enlightened to be in pain. You're supposed to use these tools to free yourself of it. And I am very Buddhist light in my understanding of the teachings. This is something that I hear a lot from people that they move away from anything spiritual or religious, or meditation can cure cancer, all of these things because we don't do that step number one, you're in pain, and I see it totally.

One of the things that irritates me about spiritual bypassing is that we take these intensely deep and beautiful and useful, single, simple, simple in air quotes here, simple teachings and twist them to our own nefarious devices. Right, like to be able to say, like yea, yeah, yeah, life is pain. You have to get over it. You have to move on. That happened to you, but you can't let it define you. That is not what the Buddha taughte and that is not what the apl path is about. It is not about saying yeah, yeah, yeah, this terrible stuff happened to you, but you have to not hold on to it. You have to let go of your feelings about what happened to you. I feel like we could spend an entire lifetime just studying thing one which is ouch and giving space to letting things hurt and seeing our hurt in ourselves and seeing the hurt in the people around us, and seeing the things that hurt in the world and giving that breathing space. And if we can't do that, it makes it really difficult to go into all of the things that you just described about noticing your feelings and getting untangled and working with resentment and looking at the ways that in a way, painful things get weaponized, whether by the world outside not seeing you and not recognizing the truth of what you're living, and therefore we get sort of resentful of like if you're not gonna see me, then I'm going to make sure you see me. Right, pain passed to the outside world or that sort of spiritual bypassing of it's not quote unquote enlightened to be in pain. You're supposed to use these tools to free yourself of it. And I am very Buddhist light in my understanding of the teachings. This is something that I hear a lot from people that they move away from anything spiritual or religious, or meditation can cure cancer, all of these things because we don't do that step number one, you're in pain, and I see it totally.

I mean, yeah, it's to me the most important. It was also so interesting because when I was preparing to write this book, I started reading on their texts about the vulnerable truths, and usually the first three you know, as you're saying the out or the tangle and the causes of suffering. You know, people tend to write like one chapter about that and then then move into the rest of it as they full path, which is kind of the prescription to heal and for me like, no, no, no, no, I just slow it down. Yeah, if we're to be real, you know, I thought, actually, what you were going to say about the challenge of spiritual bypassing, I would that you're going to say this challenges spiritual bypassing.

I mean, yeah, it's to me the most important. It was also so interesting because when I was preparing to write this book, I started reading on their texts about the vulnerable truths, and usually the first three you know, as you're saying the out or the tangle and the causes of suffering. You know, people tend to write like one chapter about that and then then move into the rest of it as they full path, which is kind of the prescription to heal and for me like, no, no, no, no, I just slow it down. Yeah, if we're to be real, you know, I thought, actually, what you were going to say about the challenge of spiritual bypassing, I would that you're going to say this challenges spiritual bypassing.

Is spiritual bypassing?

Is spiritual bypassing?

Why?

Why?

Yes, that is accurate. Bypassing is bad because it's bypassing. Yes.

Yes, that is accurate. Bypassing is bad because it's bypassing. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that it's so important to honor what's hard. It's just critical because the reality is that life is sour and sweet and savory and everything. So how do we appreciate what's hard because we all know that life's hard and it's also so interesting, and so that another.

And I think that it's so important to honor what's hard. It's just critical because the reality is that life is sour and sweet and savory and everything. So how do we appreciate what's hard because we all know that life's hard and it's also so interesting, and so that another.

Reason we need each other is to remind each.

Reason we need each other is to remind each.

Other, Oh, it's hard, all right, Yeah, yeah, you're in that hard spot.

Other, Oh, it's hard, all right, Yeah, yeah, you're in that hard spot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like you can watch somebody, if somebody is in pain, and instead of cheering them up, telling them to look on the bright side, telling them that maybe they should get on their mat and meditate, Like all of these things if you do what you just described, which is mirror that back. Yeah, this sucks, this is hard. What happened to you was not okay? Right, you can watch their physical being relax in a way. Right, Like there is such powerful medicine and acknowledgment. What I hear you saying is like, we only get to use the tools to come to our own aid and our own assistance when we tell the truth, and it super helps to have that truth reflected and validated by the world around you. And then we can jump into all of these beautiful tools that you're talking about in Untangling. Then we can talk about how do you work with the pain and the suffering in your own life so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm. We're talking with Koshin Paley Ellison, author of the new book Untangled. Let's get back to it.

I feel like you can watch somebody, if somebody is in pain, and instead of cheering them up, telling them to look on the bright side, telling them that maybe they should get on their mat and meditate, Like all of these things if you do what you just described, which is mirror that back. Yeah, this sucks, this is hard. What happened to you was not okay? Right, you can watch their physical being relax in a way. Right, Like there is such powerful medicine and acknowledgment. What I hear you saying is like, we only get to use the tools to come to our own aid and our own assistance when we tell the truth, and it super helps to have that truth reflected and validated by the world around you. And then we can jump into all of these beautiful tools that you're talking about in Untangling. Then we can talk about how do you work with the pain and the suffering in your own life so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm. We're talking with Koshin Paley Ellison, author of the new book Untangled. Let's get back to it.

You know, I was thinking about we have this Contemplative Medicine fellowship for our physicians and there's practitioners, and it's a year long training because we were really just worried about doctors and nur's practitioners because they have the highest rates of suicide, the highest rates of divorce, drugging, alcohol abuse and leaving the profession. It's actually often thought of as the most unhealthy profession.

You know, I was thinking about we have this Contemplative Medicine fellowship for our physicians and there's practitioners, and it's a year long training because we were really just worried about doctors and nur's practitioners because they have the highest rates of suicide, the highest rates of divorce, drugging, alcohol abuse and leaving the profession. It's actually often thought of as the most unhealthy profession.

And we realized that in.

And we realized that in.

Order to engage them in a loving way, we had to start with the truth of suffering, right, And so we start right there, and it's like, okay, so let's talk about what's hard and what you're caring inside of yourself in your interpersonal relationships and your life out in the world. I think that it's such a beautiful model for all of us to think about, Okay, what hurts, what's tangled up inside of me, what's tangled up in my inner personal relationships, and what's tangled up in my relationship with the world, and what's topsy turvy, you know what is kind of a little cup cooop here. And to me, when we start to do that, you know, I was thinking about my teacher again, you and he was talking about the most important thing is to suffer together first.

Order to engage them in a loving way, we had to start with the truth of suffering, right, And so we start right there, and it's like, okay, so let's talk about what's hard and what you're caring inside of yourself in your interpersonal relationships and your life out in the world. I think that it's such a beautiful model for all of us to think about, Okay, what hurts, what's tangled up inside of me, what's tangled up in my inner personal relationships, and what's tangled up in my relationship with the world, and what's topsy turvy, you know what is kind of a little cup cooop here. And to me, when we start to do that, you know, I was thinking about my teacher again, you and he was talking about the most important thing is to suffer together first.

So let's suffer together.

So let's suffer together.

And so to me, that's why those very powerful giants of greed and resentment and delusion are so important. Is like, oh you too, you too. Tell me about how those things affect you, and I'll tell you how they affect me. And so we can get really.

And so to me, that's why those very powerful giants of greed and resentment and delusion are so important. Is like, oh you too, you too. Tell me about how those things affect you, and I'll tell you how they affect me. And so we can get really.

Real, yeah, real, and curious about each other, right, curious about pain in our own lives and the pain in others, so that we can suffer together.

Real, yeah, real, and curious about each other, right, curious about pain in our own lives and the pain in others, so that we can suffer together.

Right.

Right.

You only get that kind of companionship and connection when you can tell the truth about what it's like to be you, and the you that.

You only get that kind of companionship and connection when you can tell the truth about what it's like to be you, and the you that.

We don't often share with most people because we want appear like we're okay.

We don't often share with most people because we want appear like we're okay.

Reminds me of a book that you wrote, Yes.

Reminds me of a book that you wrote, Yes.

It's okay that you're not okay exactly. Yeah, I mean this is this is such a challenge, right, It's sort of chicken in the egg type thing. We pretend to be okay when we're not because we've internalized all of that messaging that says that happiness is the only true marker of health and if you're suffering, you're doing it wrong. And also behavioral conditioning. Right, if I come to the people in my life and I say, hey, this is really hard right now, and what I get back is not validation or acknowledgment, it's spiritual bypassing. It's you think you have it bad, My life is worse. One of the things that I say often is like, if you keep going to the grocery store looking for milk and they insist on selling you furniture. You're going to stop going to that store because you're not going to get what you need.

It's okay that you're not okay exactly. Yeah, I mean this is this is such a challenge, right, It's sort of chicken in the egg type thing. We pretend to be okay when we're not because we've internalized all of that messaging that says that happiness is the only true marker of health and if you're suffering, you're doing it wrong. And also behavioral conditioning. Right, if I come to the people in my life and I say, hey, this is really hard right now, and what I get back is not validation or acknowledgment, it's spiritual bypassing. It's you think you have it bad, My life is worse. One of the things that I say often is like, if you keep going to the grocery store looking for milk and they insist on selling you furniture. You're going to stop going to that store because you're not going to get what you need.

Right.

Right.

So it's tricky because I think, I think, because we have such a backlog of being able to name the truth of suffering, it almost fuels the resentment that we're trying to untangle by using the tools of untangling resentment because it's like, oh, great, now I'm just supposed to like start being open and honest and start dealing with my resentment. I mean, I can feel myself getting tangled up even just trying to express it right.

So it's tricky because I think, I think, because we have such a backlog of being able to name the truth of suffering, it almost fuels the resentment that we're trying to untangle by using the tools of untangling resentment because it's like, oh, great, now I'm just supposed to like start being open and honest and start dealing with my resentment. I mean, I can feel myself getting tangled up even just trying to express it right.

Like right, because before we think that there is it's linear right now, reality is not linear. Our brains sometimes just wants to create a linear story. First do this, then do that, and then do that. Like many of us, you know, look for self help books or different things where tell me what to do to not feel often.

Like right, because before we think that there is it's linear right now, reality is not linear. Our brains sometimes just wants to create a linear story. First do this, then do that, and then do that. Like many of us, you know, look for self help books or different things where tell me what to do to not feel often.

What I'm feeling. And to me, the courage comes from that clarity of oh, right.

What I'm feeling. And to me, the courage comes from that clarity of oh, right.

Like, I'm in a hard moment right now, and to realize we're just in that moment that's challenging, not in a reality that we can turn it into like that's my reality. Everything's hard, life sucks, and sometimes life does suck. But I think that the key part is sometimes.

Like, I'm in a hard moment right now, and to realize we're just in that moment that's challenging, not in a reality that we can turn it into like that's my reality. Everything's hard, life sucks, and sometimes life does suck. But I think that the key part is sometimes.

Sometimes yeah, it's it's interesting, and this is this is the effect that you have in the world. I will just say this, Like I just mentioned that, like even talking about and resentment and all of these things, I could feel myself getting tangled and in my head I went go back to step one, go back to step one, which is, oh right, this is hard, and that did something.

Sometimes yeah, it's it's interesting, and this is this is the effect that you have in the world. I will just say this, Like I just mentioned that, like even talking about and resentment and all of these things, I could feel myself getting tangled and in my head I went go back to step one, go back to step one, which is, oh right, this is hard, and that did something.

Right.

Right.

I mean, it's amazing. Just telling the truth seems like it's too simple to be of any kind of use at all. But I feel like we're in such a habit of managing the feelings instead of naming the experience, and that that really is what this book is about. Right when you're noticing that tangle, that anxiety, that resentment, that frustration, and going back to step one, yeah.

I mean, it's amazing. Just telling the truth seems like it's too simple to be of any kind of use at all. But I feel like we're in such a habit of managing the feelings instead of naming the experience, and that that really is what this book is about. Right when you're noticing that tangle, that anxiety, that resentment, that frustration, and going back to step one, yeah.

Acknowledgement, Oh I'm in that nobility of things get tangled up. I'm just I'm back here, okay, yeah, okay, okay, okay, yeah.

Acknowledgement, Oh I'm in that nobility of things get tangled up. I'm just I'm back here, okay, yeah, okay, okay, okay, yeah.

I want to talk a little bit about you as a younger person, because I think that these conversations can get philosophical and esoteric really quickly. So there's a story in the book where you talk about being chased through the woods as a child. Are you okay if we talk about that story, do you want to share that story?

I want to talk a little bit about you as a younger person, because I think that these conversations can get philosophical and esoteric really quickly. So there's a story in the book where you talk about being chased through the woods as a child. Are you okay if we talk about that story, do you want to share that story?

Yeah?

Yeah?

So I think what's important about the story too, is that what happened before the story and okay, what happened is that there were these pictures that maybe some of us all remember of those refugees being kind of lassoed at the border and kind of hunted at the border, like on horseback. And the images were so haunting and so disturbing to me. I just felt such tenderness and such sorrow and fear these images, and there was something about it. I was like, what is it about that image that is so scary to me?

So I think what's important about the story too, is that what happened before the story and okay, what happened is that there were these pictures that maybe some of us all remember of those refugees being kind of lassoed at the border and kind of hunted at the border, like on horseback. And the images were so haunting and so disturbing to me. I just felt such tenderness and such sorrow and fear these images, and there was something about it. I was like, what is it about that image that is so scary to me?

And I was biking.

And I was biking.

Home and you know, I live in a little island called Manhattan and has these beautiful rivers all around it, and I liked to bike home at night. And I was biking home and you kind of have to go off into the wooded area and it was getting dark, and I suddenly this memory just like shot through me and I literally fell off my bike, like it just like literally.

Home and you know, I live in a little island called Manhattan and has these beautiful rivers all around it, and I liked to bike home at night. And I was biking home and you kind of have to go off into the wooded area and it was getting dark, and I suddenly this memory just like shot through me and I literally fell off my bike, like it just like literally.

Hit me, and I just fell off the bike.

Hit me, and I just fell off the bike.

And what happened was that my mother and my stepfather had this kind of idea of romantic idea kind of a beautiful utopian idea of homesteading and living off the land and moving into a rural place and won't that be great? And a razor on food and whatever that is. So we moved to this tiny little town in the upstate New York and clearly they had never had Jews there, and you know, the first night that kind of circled our house and the four wheelers and were shooting at the house and painted jew in the mailbox. And I actually, I was, I think ten years old, and I had never been so terrified in my life. And actually I didn't even know that I was. I didn't really even understand that I was Jewish, like even what that meant, because I felt like I looked like everybody else, but it was clear I was not like everybody else. So we lived in this kind of town where actually, even in the public school, it's so horrific, you know, and I think it's important you know that this is in New York state, upstate New York. And the teacher lifting me up by my hair and saying, show us your horns jew and somehow, and I still can feel the pain of that, like the physical pain and.

And what happened was that my mother and my stepfather had this kind of idea of romantic idea kind of a beautiful utopian idea of homesteading and living off the land and moving into a rural place and won't that be great? And a razor on food and whatever that is. So we moved to this tiny little town in the upstate New York and clearly they had never had Jews there, and you know, the first night that kind of circled our house and the four wheelers and were shooting at the house and painted jew in the mailbox. And I actually, I was, I think ten years old, and I had never been so terrified in my life. And actually I didn't even know that I was. I didn't really even understand that I was Jewish, like even what that meant, because I felt like I looked like everybody else, but it was clear I was not like everybody else. So we lived in this kind of town where actually, even in the public school, it's so horrific, you know, and I think it's important you know that this is in New York state, upstate New York. And the teacher lifting me up by my hair and saying, show us your horns jew and somehow, and I still can feel the pain of that, like the physical pain and.

The kind of humiliation of that.

The kind of humiliation of that.

And I remember still feeling a sense of agency somehow going to the principal's office and saying, you know, this is what happens, and he's like, well, where are your horns? So it was that kind of town, deeply racist place, and one of the places where I found a lot of solace as a young person. We had a lot of woods, and so i'd go off into the woods and find these big boulders and lay on the boulders and just try to you know, often the boulders were covered in moss, and just to be able to feel the ground and feel supported and comforted by the world, and just looking up at the canopy of trees and the light coming through the trees has always been so magical to me and continues to be just the kind of effmorable, ephemeral beauty of the world.

And I remember still feeling a sense of agency somehow going to the principal's office and saying, you know, this is what happens, and he's like, well, where are your horns? So it was that kind of town, deeply racist place, and one of the places where I found a lot of solace as a young person. We had a lot of woods, and so i'd go off into the woods and find these big boulders and lay on the boulders and just try to you know, often the boulders were covered in moss, and just to be able to feel the ground and feel supported and comforted by the world, and just looking up at the canopy of trees and the light coming through the trees has always been so magical to me and continues to be just the kind of effmorable, ephemeral beauty of the world.

One afternoon, late afternoon.

One afternoon, late afternoon.

I'd gotten really far away from the house and pretty deep in the woods where there were these trails that I heard the four wheelers coming and they saw me and they're like, you know, died you died, and they had guns and they were shooting at me. So it's like being I was actually being hunted, and even now, like it's hard to even touch the feeling of it, you know, And so I'm even noticing while I'm saying it now, it's so hard to touch the depth of that terror.

I'd gotten really far away from the house and pretty deep in the woods where there were these trails that I heard the four wheelers coming and they saw me and they're like, you know, died you died, and they had guns and they were shooting at me. So it's like being I was actually being hunted, and even now, like it's hard to even touch the feeling of it, you know, And so I'm even noticing while I'm saying it now, it's so hard to touch the depth of that terror.

So it was getting.

So it was getting.

Dark into the lights on their four wheelers and the gunshots, and I just remember like jumping into like the side off the trail.

Dark into the lights on their four wheelers and the gunshots, and I just remember like jumping into like the side off the trail.

I went around a corner and I thought I'd kind of.

I went around a corner and I thought I'd kind of.

Be able to hide and landed in this BlackBerry bramble which you got completely cut up, and just laid there, you know, a breath and heart beating, and that's all I really remember. And they passed and couldn't find me.

Be able to hide and landed in this BlackBerry bramble which you got completely cut up, and just laid there, you know, a breath and heart beating, and that's all I really remember. And they passed and couldn't find me.

But it was so so.

But it was so so.

Powerful, And that's what I remember, the hunting, like i'd remember.

Powerful, And that's what I remember, the hunting, like i'd remember.

The hair pulling. I remembered, you know, being.

The hair pulling. I remembered, you know, being.

Our house being circled, but the hunting, being a human being hunted by other humans, like I was a young boy, and what is that, you know? So what I fell off my bike is like that's what I remembered. The light kind of getting dark in the forest and being terrified and they were my neighbors. I knew these people, So it really, you know, brought me back to you know, I've come from a family who were affected by the Holocaust, and we're actually most of my family who were killed were killed by their neighbors.

Our house being circled, but the hunting, being a human being hunted by other humans, like I was a young boy, and what is that, you know? So what I fell off my bike is like that's what I remembered. The light kind of getting dark in the forest and being terrified and they were my neighbors. I knew these people, So it really, you know, brought me back to you know, I've come from a family who were affected by the Holocaust, and we're actually most of my family who were killed were killed by their neighbors.

And how easily that can happen, and how that almost happened to me. Well, it did happen, but I didn't get killed, you know, And so I think that there was also this like, well what is that?

And how easily that can happen, and how that almost happened to me. Well, it did happen, but I didn't get killed, you know, And so I think that there was also this like, well what is that?

And someone that could do that, they were probably, like I don't know, teenagers of some kind, you know.

And someone that could do that, they were probably, like I don't know, teenagers of some kind, you know.

And if we think about compassion, how.

And if we think about compassion, how.

Does compassion include those people and yet hold people responsible. So it makes me really feel really deeply for the challenge that.

Does compassion include those people and yet hold people responsible. So it makes me really feel really deeply for the challenge that.

We're met with.

We're met with.

And for me, what has been so important for my own healing process is to really recognize and turn the light to where it isn't and saying, oh, right, this happened, It was real, It was terrifying, and in some ways.

And for me, what has been so important for my own healing process is to really recognize and turn the light to where it isn't and saying, oh, right, this happened, It was real, It was terrifying, and in some ways.

Those wounds, my wounds.

Those wounds, my wounds.

Those wounds are exactly what has propelled me into a life of healing and intimacy and the almost demand for that. And I learned from early early age that my body wouldn't necessarily continue that my body could get killed like that. I knew that from a very young age, and so I think this it has brought this like exquisite focus.

Those wounds are exactly what has propelled me into a life of healing and intimacy and the almost demand for that. And I learned from early early age that my body wouldn't necessarily continue that my body could get killed like that. I knew that from a very young age, and so I think this it has brought this like exquisite focus.

Into the beauty of the world.

Into the beauty of the world.

And so I think sometimes I think the was the mythologist Michael Mead where he's talks about like these wounds and he's like kind of almost like knife loves to your heart at an early age can propel us into our life purpose. And so I'm also so glad that I was able to, you know, with lots of therapy, a lot, but really a lot of therapy, and with really good people, having really meaningful friends, and you know, a steady meditation practice has been completely that kind of that combination of three things has been what has shifted things dramatically for me. And really learning how to stay with what's hard and not turn away. And you know, it was two years later that I actually met my first teacher, who was this guy send Say White and sense White was you know, I'd seen these movies came out, which now there's remakes and enfranchises about them, Star Wars and Karate Kid, the original ones, and I would just love these two, like the Karate Kid and Luke Skywalker were so whiny and like nag, you know, they were so whiny, and it was so helpful to me because I realized, like I felt so whiny, and there was something about the hero being able to whine, which kind of gets back to what you were saying before, or that like incredible scene of.

And so I think sometimes I think the was the mythologist Michael Mead where he's talks about like these wounds and he's like kind of almost like knife loves to your heart at an early age can propel us into our life purpose. And so I'm also so glad that I was able to, you know, with lots of therapy, a lot, but really a lot of therapy, and with really good people, having really meaningful friends, and you know, a steady meditation practice has been completely that kind of that combination of three things has been what has shifted things dramatically for me. And really learning how to stay with what's hard and not turn away. And you know, it was two years later that I actually met my first teacher, who was this guy send Say White and sense White was you know, I'd seen these movies came out, which now there's remakes and enfranchises about them, Star Wars and Karate Kid, the original ones, and I would just love these two, like the Karate Kid and Luke Skywalker were so whiny and like nag, you know, they were so whiny, and it was so helpful to me because I realized, like I felt so whiny, and there was something about the hero being able to whine, which kind of gets back to what you were saying before, or that like incredible scene of.

When I don't know if.

When I don't know if.

You saw this film called Spirited Away where it's a genius and there's a scene of this giant baby.

You saw this film called Spirited Away where it's a genius and there's a scene of this giant baby.

I love the giant.

I love the giant.

Baby so much, and it's just like this crazy giant baby and she's like, like, you have to attend to that. You have to attend to our giant baby.

Baby so much, and it's just like this crazy giant baby and she's like, like, you have to attend to that. You have to attend to our giant baby.

You know, and that bag, you know.

You know, and that bag, you know.

And so I found this teacher since White because I realized, oh, you could have a teacher who actually helps you to not whine and never had registered to me, and I felt like I was kind of stuck, and I realized, oh, I have to find a teacher and ow karate, so you can learn karate and find a teacher, and so I went to the local strip mall. This is when after we moved back from that mountain town.

And so I found this teacher since White because I realized, oh, you could have a teacher who actually helps you to not whine and never had registered to me, and I felt like I was kind of stuck, and I realized, oh, I have to find a teacher and ow karate, so you can learn karate and find a teacher, and so I went to the local strip mall. This is when after we moved back from that mountain town.

You could say.

You could say.

And in the bottom of the drug store was this karate school was like really gross, you know, like really like definitely had a lot of fun gus going on there. But there was this teacher, sense White, and he used to have a sit and says that, which is like when you have your legs underneath yourself, you're sitting almost like on your knees. And it was not like the kind of karate school where like there was like kids classes. So I was like, I was kind of the real super high ball at eleven years old, which is another theme. But he used to walk around us and say that we would sit there like that, and it hurts so much because now these days, you know, if you sit meditation, you have a nice chushion, you have a nice share or.

And in the bottom of the drug store was this karate school was like really gross, you know, like really like definitely had a lot of fun gus going on there. But there was this teacher, sense White, and he used to have a sit and says that, which is like when you have your legs underneath yourself, you're sitting almost like on your knees. And it was not like the kind of karate school where like there was like kids classes. So I was like, I was kind of the real super high ball at eleven years old, which is another theme. But he used to walk around us and say that we would sit there like that, and it hurts so much because now these days, you know, if you sit meditation, you have a nice chushion, you have a nice share or.

Whatever that is.

Whatever that is.

We laid down and this is like on a hardwood floor and he would be sweating and sitting there sweating, sweating, sweating, and he said, you know, you'll never be free until you can be still with your pain. And coming from that town, that also I began to see how, you know, people in my family, how those kids on the four wheelers, that none of them knew how to be still with their pain. Otherwise, why would anyone cause so much harm like I couldn't articulate at that time, but I remember feeling like I understood them somehow, in not a very sophisticated way, that I understood that they did not know how that their values and their actions were together, because as we were talking about earlier, they didn't know how to be with their tangle. They didn't know how to be with their pain or never mind the causes of their pain. They just like you know, bounce, bounce off their pain and just.

We laid down and this is like on a hardwood floor and he would be sweating and sitting there sweating, sweating, sweating, and he said, you know, you'll never be free until you can be still with your pain. And coming from that town, that also I began to see how, you know, people in my family, how those kids on the four wheelers, that none of them knew how to be still with their pain. Otherwise, why would anyone cause so much harm like I couldn't articulate at that time, but I remember feeling like I understood them somehow, in not a very sophisticated way, that I understood that they did not know how that their values and their actions were together, because as we were talking about earlier, they didn't know how to be with their tangle. They didn't know how to be with their pain or never mind the causes of their pain. They just like you know, bounce, bounce off their pain and just.

React, react, react, react.

React, react, react, react.

For these days, people's I get trigger, trigger, you know, and as opposed to yes, I feel pain and I can stay here with you, Yes, it's true and I'm here with you. To me, learning how to be still with your pain is the beginning of intimacy, and that Mads not crazy, but for me, it is totally true.

For these days, people's I get trigger, trigger, you know, and as opposed to yes, I feel pain and I can stay here with you, Yes, it's true and I'm here with you. To me, learning how to be still with your pain is the beginning of intimacy, and that Mads not crazy, but for me, it is totally true.

Okay, I've been just sitting here listening and thank you for sharing all of that. I think what you just said about learning to be silent with your pain is I don't even remember what you said because it was so perfect, but about intimacy starting there, right, And this is something that we've been talking about from various entry points this whole time, is that it is not that horrendous things don't happen. It's also not that horrendous things happen. Yeah, but let's move on and not live there anymore. This is being here and being human is impossible and it is and delicious. Yes, I'm getting there, don't you worry. I'm coming. I'm coming for the joy and the beauty. But I think there's so much in what you just shared, and so much of it is loss of intimacy, loss of connection, feeling like you're the only one in the world, pain getting passed down and passed down and passed down, and reactivity time being so fast that you don't even recognize that you are in pain, and that is driving your actions and your reactions, and so much of our real spiritual traditions are about slow the fuck down and say ouch, and sit with that and tell the truth about that, and learn to be silent with that pain so that you can wonder, how do I want to move in this world? Living what I just lived? And so much of your work and the Zencenter's work and all of the things that you do in all of your books, this one especially really dives right into it of ouch and how will we live? With that so that the pain does not eclipse every other experience moving forward. Yes, the joy, the beauty and the intimacy. It's not about deal with your pain so you can put it behind you. It is listen to your pain so that you get to have some agency and some choice in how that lives in you.

Okay, I've been just sitting here listening and thank you for sharing all of that. I think what you just said about learning to be silent with your pain is I don't even remember what you said because it was so perfect, but about intimacy starting there, right, And this is something that we've been talking about from various entry points this whole time, is that it is not that horrendous things don't happen. It's also not that horrendous things happen. Yeah, but let's move on and not live there anymore. This is being here and being human is impossible and it is and delicious. Yes, I'm getting there, don't you worry. I'm coming. I'm coming for the joy and the beauty. But I think there's so much in what you just shared, and so much of it is loss of intimacy, loss of connection, feeling like you're the only one in the world, pain getting passed down and passed down and passed down, and reactivity time being so fast that you don't even recognize that you are in pain, and that is driving your actions and your reactions, and so much of our real spiritual traditions are about slow the fuck down and say ouch, and sit with that and tell the truth about that, and learn to be silent with that pain so that you can wonder, how do I want to move in this world? Living what I just lived? And so much of your work and the Zencenter's work and all of the things that you do in all of your books, this one especially really dives right into it of ouch and how will we live? With that so that the pain does not eclipse every other experience moving forward. Yes, the joy, the beauty and the intimacy. It's not about deal with your pain so you can put it behind you. It is listen to your pain so that you get to have some agency and some choice in how that lives in you.

Yes, you know, I think that you know, I still have scars from that moment of being hunted, and and I think I'm glad.

Yes, you know, I think that you know, I still have scars from that moment of being hunted, and and I think I'm glad.

That I do, you know.

That I do, you know.

And that to me it's also part of like I can see it on my body, you know, like there it is, but it's real. And I think that so much of our negation of what's happened is what causes more suffering. And so to me it's like, yes, that happened, and it is what's propelled me towards healing, and so like that, I'm just loving this conversation, first of all being with you. And that's why those first tree noble truths are they deserve that nobility of attention and really feeling them so that we can go to the actually you're asked about the that for me, it's actually the third one nobility is that there's another way to do it you can pivot.

And that to me it's also part of like I can see it on my body, you know, like there it is, but it's real. And I think that so much of our negation of what's happened is what causes more suffering. And so to me it's like, yes, that happened, and it is what's propelled me towards healing, and so like that, I'm just loving this conversation, first of all being with you. And that's why those first tree noble truths are they deserve that nobility of attention and really feeling them so that we can go to the actually you're asked about the that for me, it's actually the third one nobility is that there's another way to do it you can pivot.

But it's not to deny.

But it's not to deny.

The pivot is not a denial or a turning away from it's because you have suffered and know what it is to feel almost impossible things.

The pivot is not a denial or a turning away from it's because you have suffered and know what it is to feel almost impossible things.

It's because of.

It's because of.

That you can actually turn in a whole bodied way towards well, what else is true? Because I know what's hard, I can actually see you more clearly, and I can really appreciate the preciousness of this moment, like I can see your eyes right now, and how rarely we actually are paying attention, and so like, from there then we can go into the nobility of yes, there are these practices, Yes there are, and the full path is really built on wisdom, compassion and ethics. Like yes, And because we're not again turning away from anything, we're saying what we go through and live in this life is what makes us wives, is what teaches us, compassion is what teaches us our own ethics, what our ethics actually are, how to live an ethical life? You know, recently we're with with our friend Tronia and she has this incredible ranch in New Mexico and they just have these crazy fires and eating up everything but not everything, and part of the land that she's Stewards there has this great, great cedar tree, and the cedar tree is totally singed by the fire and yet so alive in the top, you know, and so alive throughout. And she was saying that, you know, they the tree is so deep, its roots are so deep that it stays moist and the fire can't really burn it and singe it.

That you can actually turn in a whole bodied way towards well, what else is true? Because I know what's hard, I can actually see you more clearly, and I can really appreciate the preciousness of this moment, like I can see your eyes right now, and how rarely we actually are paying attention, and so like, from there then we can go into the nobility of yes, there are these practices, Yes there are, and the full path is really built on wisdom, compassion and ethics. Like yes, And because we're not again turning away from anything, we're saying what we go through and live in this life is what makes us wives, is what teaches us, compassion is what teaches us our own ethics, what our ethics actually are, how to live an ethical life? You know, recently we're with with our friend Tronia and she has this incredible ranch in New Mexico and they just have these crazy fires and eating up everything but not everything, and part of the land that she's Stewards there has this great, great cedar tree, and the cedar tree is totally singed by the fire and yet so alive in the top, you know, and so alive throughout. And she was saying that, you know, they the tree is so deep, its roots are so deep that it stays moist and the fire can't really burn it and singe it.

And so to me, the.

And so to me, the.

Eightful path are actually just living, you know, you could say, just living with wisdom, compassion, ethics is allowing that depth and that verticality where we can feel the depth of the darkness and the height of spirit and air and possibility. And so I think that that kind of verticality is always available to all of us. And so it's this such a gorgeous image of allowing ourself to go deep into what's heard, into what's confusing, into what is inconceivable, so that we can actually grow strong. And to me, that's what courage is, you know, to feel like, oh, this is scary and let's go ooh this is hard, and let's go idiot.

Eightful path are actually just living, you know, you could say, just living with wisdom, compassion, ethics is allowing that depth and that verticality where we can feel the depth of the darkness and the height of spirit and air and possibility. And so I think that that kind of verticality is always available to all of us. And so it's this such a gorgeous image of allowing ourself to go deep into what's heard, into what's confusing, into what is inconceivable, so that we can actually grow strong. And to me, that's what courage is, you know, to feel like, oh, this is scary and let's go ooh this is hard, and let's go idiot.

Yeah yeah.

Yeah yeah.

Hey.

Hey.

Before we get back to this week's guest, I want to talk with you about exploring your losses. Through writing. There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing. My thirty day Writing your Grief course is not like that. Them prompts are deeper, they're more nuanced. They're designed to get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now, writing isn't going to cure anything, but it can help you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful. You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course at Refuge in Grief dot com backslash wyg. That is WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample prompt from the course and get writing your own words in minutes. My thirty day Writing your Grief Course is still one of the best things I've ever made for you. Come join more than ten thousand people who have taken the Writing your Grief Course Refugegrief dot Com backslash wyg, or you can find the link in the show notes. Okay, so this phrase just popped into my head and you know, like pop psychology meme sort of thing, but like the life you long for is on the other side of fear. Now. I am not a fan of lifestyle edicts by Meme. But that's what came up in my mind as you were talking about that. And again, it's not it's not a binary and it's not linear. It's not you dive into really witnessing and paying attention to your pain or somebody else's pain or the pain of the world so that you can live a great life like this. That binary is trash and that is not what we're talking about. But what we're talking about is we all intrinsically as social creatures, as mammals, we need each other to survive and in order to feel companioned inside the impossible things that we live and feel companioned, enjoy this practice that you talk about in the book, that you live in your life, that you've created in the in the world for the people who are fortunate to be near you. This is one of the tools by which you can build that kind of life where all is welcome and if not welcome, all is seen.

Before we get back to this week's guest, I want to talk with you about exploring your losses. Through writing. There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing. My thirty day Writing your Grief course is not like that. Them prompts are deeper, they're more nuanced. They're designed to get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now, writing isn't going to cure anything, but it can help you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful. You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course at Refuge in Grief dot com backslash wyg. That is WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample prompt from the course and get writing your own words in minutes. My thirty day Writing your Grief Course is still one of the best things I've ever made for you. Come join more than ten thousand people who have taken the Writing your Grief Course Refugegrief dot Com backslash wyg, or you can find the link in the show notes. Okay, so this phrase just popped into my head and you know, like pop psychology meme sort of thing, but like the life you long for is on the other side of fear. Now. I am not a fan of lifestyle edicts by Meme. But that's what came up in my mind as you were talking about that. And again, it's not it's not a binary and it's not linear. It's not you dive into really witnessing and paying attention to your pain or somebody else's pain or the pain of the world so that you can live a great life like this. That binary is trash and that is not what we're talking about. But what we're talking about is we all intrinsically as social creatures, as mammals, we need each other to survive and in order to feel companioned inside the impossible things that we live and feel companioned, enjoy this practice that you talk about in the book, that you live in your life, that you've created in the in the world for the people who are fortunate to be near you. This is one of the tools by which you can build that kind of life where all is welcome and if not welcome, all is seen.

Yeah, there's this image to and when you're talking, I just really reminds me of this other image I've always enjoyed so much. There's this text called the load Is Sutra, which sounds promising and.

Yeah, there's this image to and when you're talking, I just really reminds me of this other image I've always enjoyed so much. There's this text called the load Is Sutra, which sounds promising and.

At the beginning of it.

At the beginning of it.

It's this, you know, that this assembly, this greatest where the buddhas you know, hanging out there about to give a talk, and that the whole chapter, the whole first chapter, is describing all the people who are there. And there's demons and snakes and and you know, monks in the usual suspects, you know, a mons.

It's this, you know, that this assembly, this greatest where the buddhas you know, hanging out there about to give a talk, and that the whole chapter, the whole first chapter, is describing all the people who are there. And there's demons and snakes and and you know, monks in the usual suspects, you know, a mons.

Nuns and gods and all kinds of magical creatures.

Nuns and gods and all kinds of magical creatures.

But there's also demons and snakes and fighting people and all kinds of people. So it's like that welcoming of this kind of canopy of reality. And to me, like that's an easy thing to say, and to me, that's why we need good spiritual friends. Why we're living actually in a sort of extraordinary time where we can actually be in community virtually and online and so like we can actually there's less barriers now than ever before to actually connect.

But there's also demons and snakes and fighting people and all kinds of people. So it's like that welcoming of this kind of canopy of reality. And to me, like that's an easy thing to say, and to me, that's why we need good spiritual friends. Why we're living actually in a sort of extraordinary time where we can actually be in community virtually and online and so like we can actually there's less barriers now than ever before to actually connect.

And I know many people who have.

And I know many people who have.

Been part of the Zen Center in the last couple of years or just become.

Been part of the Zen Center in the last couple of years or just become.

Very connected, and they live in the.

Very connected, and they live in the.

Mountains of the Dominican Republic, in South Africa and all these different places, and they really feel a sense of belonging. So I think we need community in order to remind us. Yes, it's about inviting it all in, which is an easy thing to say, but it's like when it gets hard sometimes having someone to call like, ooh.

Mountains of the Dominican Republic, in South Africa and all these different places, and they really feel a sense of belonging. So I think we need community in order to remind us. Yes, it's about inviting it all in, which is an easy thing to say, but it's like when it gets hard sometimes having someone to call like, ooh.

I'm having a really hard moment, I'm all tangled.