I can count endless stories of people who were sick and for go for went care because they knew the system was bad. They knew they were going to be on a waiting line for four hours. They knew they were going to wait on line just to get a script to go see another doctor. They knew they were going to get a billion to mail for four hundred bucks, and they have no idea how they're going to pay for.

I can count endless stories of people who were sick and for go for went care because they knew the system was bad. They knew they were going to be on a waiting line for four hours. They knew they were going to wait on line just to get a script to go see another doctor. They knew they were going to get a billion to mail for four hundred bucks, and they have no idea how they're going to pay for.

This.

This.

Is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm your host, Megan Devine. This week on the show Business Leader mentor, author and corporate exec doctor Eryl Pierre joins us to talk about the hardships inherent in climbing the corporate ladder for people of color, systemic equity, and why advocacy at its root is always really grief work, settle in friends. The conversation that brings all of those seemingly desparate things together is coming up right after this first break. Before we get started. Two quick notes. One, this episode is an encore performance. I am on break working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some of these conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, this show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensement a health provider, or for professional supervision related to your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections out into your world and talk about it. Hey, friends, So, on the surface, today's guest might seem like an odd match for this show. I mean, okay, listen to the description of his new book in the Way, Climbing the Corporate Mountain. As a professional, color accomplished executive, Doctor Eryl Prierre delivers a pragmatic and actionable guide to help underrepresented individuals from all ethnic backgrounds achieve their professional goals and elevate their careers in today's modern workplace. And here's his bio. Doctor Eryl Pierre provides leadership, mentorship and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions. Okay, all of that sounds amazing and awesome, and it is. But I mean, the tagline of Hereafter is conversations with interesting people about difficult things. So why exactly is a corporate executive, mentor leadership author a guest on the show? Well, as you will hear in today's conversation, grief, love, suffering, and a dream for a better world is at the root of everything, doctor Errol Pierre does. We kind of came to that realization together in the course of our conversation, which is also really cool. So on one hand, yes, he is an amazing mentor and leader and guide, particularly for people of color looking to advance their careers. But he's also an advocate for equity and accessibility in healthcare, which, when you think about it, is actually a ferocious, deeply embodied care for the well being of individuals and families and communities. The work of leadership, whether on a corporate level or an advocacy isn't like to erase pain, the pain that is such a large part of being human. But the real work is to decrease the odds of that pain showing up on your doorstep and to reduce suffering when that kind of pain can't be avoided. This conversation is really special, So I don't want you to listen to his accolades and think that doesn't sound like me. There is so much in this conversation for everybody. Now. When I first started talking to him, I kind of front loaded, though, let's go over your bio and why you being here as a topic of discussion before I even actually kind of properly welcomed him to this show, sort of a host faux pas. But you know whatever, I'm jumping in with my own over zealous awkward. Welcome to the awkward party is also a tagline for the show, so you know, I'm I'm just breaking it anyway. Here you go, jumping right in with the over zealous awkward. My conversation with doctor Eryl Pierre. So in the intro, I was telling people that you provide leadership, mentorship and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions, which is a lot of business talk that I lifted from your book's press release. But I want to get behind that. First of all, Welcome to.

Is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm your host, Megan Devine. This week on the show Business Leader mentor, author and corporate exec doctor Eryl Pierre joins us to talk about the hardships inherent in climbing the corporate ladder for people of color, systemic equity, and why advocacy at its root is always really grief work, settle in friends. The conversation that brings all of those seemingly desparate things together is coming up right after this first break. Before we get started. Two quick notes. One, this episode is an encore performance. I am on break working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some of these conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, this show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensement a health provider, or for professional supervision related to your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections out into your world and talk about it. Hey, friends, So, on the surface, today's guest might seem like an odd match for this show. I mean, okay, listen to the description of his new book in the Way, Climbing the Corporate Mountain. As a professional, color accomplished executive, Doctor Eryl Prierre delivers a pragmatic and actionable guide to help underrepresented individuals from all ethnic backgrounds achieve their professional goals and elevate their careers in today's modern workplace. And here's his bio. Doctor Eryl Pierre provides leadership, mentorship and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions. Okay, all of that sounds amazing and awesome, and it is. But I mean, the tagline of Hereafter is conversations with interesting people about difficult things. So why exactly is a corporate executive, mentor leadership author a guest on the show? Well, as you will hear in today's conversation, grief, love, suffering, and a dream for a better world is at the root of everything, doctor Errol Pierre does. We kind of came to that realization together in the course of our conversation, which is also really cool. So on one hand, yes, he is an amazing mentor and leader and guide, particularly for people of color looking to advance their careers. But he's also an advocate for equity and accessibility in healthcare, which, when you think about it, is actually a ferocious, deeply embodied care for the well being of individuals and families and communities. The work of leadership, whether on a corporate level or an advocacy isn't like to erase pain, the pain that is such a large part of being human. But the real work is to decrease the odds of that pain showing up on your doorstep and to reduce suffering when that kind of pain can't be avoided. This conversation is really special, So I don't want you to listen to his accolades and think that doesn't sound like me. There is so much in this conversation for everybody. Now. When I first started talking to him, I kind of front loaded, though, let's go over your bio and why you being here as a topic of discussion before I even actually kind of properly welcomed him to this show, sort of a host faux pas. But you know whatever, I'm jumping in with my own over zealous awkward. Welcome to the awkward party is also a tagline for the show, so you know, I'm I'm just breaking it anyway. Here you go, jumping right in with the over zealous awkward. My conversation with doctor Eryl Pierre. So in the intro, I was telling people that you provide leadership, mentorship and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions, which is a lot of business talk that I lifted from your book's press release. But I want to get behind that. First of all, Welcome to.

The show, Eryl, Thank you for having me it's pleasure to be We.

The show, Eryl, Thank you for having me it's pleasure to be We.

Were chatting before we got rolling about like the work of bringing a book out into the world. And I think that's part of it too, that like, there's this book about business that you have out in the world, but it's really more than a book about business. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Were chatting before we got rolling about like the work of bringing a book out into the world. And I think that's part of it too, that like, there's this book about business that you have out in the world, but it's really more than a book about business. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Sure? Sure, So the culmination of the book The Way Up was after the murder of George Floyd and during the pandemic that disproportionately impacted communities of color, black and brown populations. I was stuck in a nine hundred square foot apartment in the Bronx with too much time in my hands and was just retrospective on how I ended up being where I was at that point in time, and putting pen to paper, I really wanted to describe my journey from working in a beauty supply store warehouse to becoming chief operating officer of a large insurance company in New York and then still feeling some emptiness. And so the book is a culmination of, Hey, I got to where you're supposed to get to. You got to the top, but I wasn't happy. And I also interviewed eleven other executives of color as well, which are infused to the books. Their quotes are through there because unfortunately, underrepresented people like myself were not believed. So you need other people to have the same story so that you're validated. So I also wanted to infuse their input and their insights and their experiences, and then lastly back it up with data and statistics so that again it's not just an anecdotal story. But that's really the culination of it. And the goal is twofold one. If you are a person of color, hey, here's a nice little rubric of tips and tricks that you can learn. That's great. But then I think the other major important piece is if anyone reads this book, especially as someone in leadership at corporation, realize like, wow, I didn't know my employees are going through this just to tread in place, and that's really the bigger unset story.

Sure? Sure, So the culmination of the book The Way Up was after the murder of George Floyd and during the pandemic that disproportionately impacted communities of color, black and brown populations. I was stuck in a nine hundred square foot apartment in the Bronx with too much time in my hands and was just retrospective on how I ended up being where I was at that point in time, and putting pen to paper, I really wanted to describe my journey from working in a beauty supply store warehouse to becoming chief operating officer of a large insurance company in New York and then still feeling some emptiness. And so the book is a culmination of, Hey, I got to where you're supposed to get to. You got to the top, but I wasn't happy. And I also interviewed eleven other executives of color as well, which are infused to the books. Their quotes are through there because unfortunately, underrepresented people like myself were not believed. So you need other people to have the same story so that you're validated. So I also wanted to infuse their input and their insights and their experiences, and then lastly back it up with data and statistics so that again it's not just an anecdotal story. But that's really the culination of it. And the goal is twofold one. If you are a person of color, hey, here's a nice little rubric of tips and tricks that you can learn. That's great. But then I think the other major important piece is if anyone reads this book, especially as someone in leadership at corporation, realize like, wow, I didn't know my employees are going through this just to tread in place, and that's really the bigger unset story.

Yeah, there's sort of this like lip service around caring about employees mental health, and I love that you bring that up, like you want some real stories about what your employees are bringing to their lives on the job, Like can we have that conversation instead of that sort of you know, pop psychology lip service. We'll give you a gift basket for all of your hard work, but not address the real systemic issues inside corporate structure. Now, you mentor professionals of color who work in the healthcare industry, and I imagine that there are conversations about really difficult things inside that work that you do. It's not just career strategy. So you know, my question was going to be, can we talk a little bit about the grief spoken and unspoken for people of color inside the corporate climb? But I think I want to ask a question before that, which is, how does grief intersect with this work for you?

Yeah, there's sort of this like lip service around caring about employees mental health, and I love that you bring that up, like you want some real stories about what your employees are bringing to their lives on the job, Like can we have that conversation instead of that sort of you know, pop psychology lip service. We'll give you a gift basket for all of your hard work, but not address the real systemic issues inside corporate structure. Now, you mentor professionals of color who work in the healthcare industry, and I imagine that there are conversations about really difficult things inside that work that you do. It's not just career strategy. So you know, my question was going to be, can we talk a little bit about the grief spoken and unspoken for people of color inside the corporate climb? But I think I want to ask a question before that, which is, how does grief intersect with this work for you?

If it does, yeah, it's a great question. It does intersect. Because I say this a bunch of times throughout the chapters. The way society is is going to show up inside the office, and for some strange reason, we have this belief that when you show up to work, you're like this different person and you're not bringing the baggage that you have in and so in society, if I go to a grocery store and someone follows me around because they think I'm going to take something, that sort of chip on my shoulder, that paranoia that feeling is going to show up in the workplace when I don't get a promotion or I get passed on for a job, and delinking the two you do a disservice to your employees. So grief is absolutely throughout. Some of the chapters talk about traumatic experiences I've been through and how to harness them. First, you have to be aware of them and acknowledge them so that you can like distress and it doesn't create anxiety. And then once you get to that point, which can take a while, then harness them as you continue your climb. So grief runs throughout it not just my grief, also brief of my parents, because I talk about my parents that came from Haiti and how their America was different than my America, but yet their America totally influenced how I operate in my America.

If it does, yeah, it's a great question. It does intersect. Because I say this a bunch of times throughout the chapters. The way society is is going to show up inside the office, and for some strange reason, we have this belief that when you show up to work, you're like this different person and you're not bringing the baggage that you have in and so in society, if I go to a grocery store and someone follows me around because they think I'm going to take something, that sort of chip on my shoulder, that paranoia that feeling is going to show up in the workplace when I don't get a promotion or I get passed on for a job, and delinking the two you do a disservice to your employees. So grief is absolutely throughout. Some of the chapters talk about traumatic experiences I've been through and how to harness them. First, you have to be aware of them and acknowledge them so that you can like distress and it doesn't create anxiety. And then once you get to that point, which can take a while, then harness them as you continue your climb. So grief runs throughout it not just my grief, also brief of my parents, because I talk about my parents that came from Haiti and how their America was different than my America, but yet their America totally influenced how I operate in my America.

Yeah, and your parents came to America from Haiti in the seventies. Yeah, right, as you said, completely different world. And you write that while your father worked really hard and was in a union, healthcare was out of reach for your family, right, Like, that's just one example of challenges that people face. You talked about it a little bit, But what role does that experience play in the life that you've built for yourself and the life that you hope to help others build for themselves.

Yeah, and your parents came to America from Haiti in the seventies. Yeah, right, as you said, completely different world. And you write that while your father worked really hard and was in a union, healthcare was out of reach for your family, right, Like, that's just one example of challenges that people face. You talked about it a little bit, But what role does that experience play in the life that you've built for yourself and the life that you hope to help others build for themselves.

I talk about it in the books. I see it right now vividly. Had to get a root canal when I was a kid, and I went to the dentist, and a dentist told my dad and these are I was talking, so like you're off to the side. You don't know, it's sure right, And it's interesting what kids remember right when they're older. And the dentist and I told my dad, we can't complete the work until January first of next year. So even though you started, it was like September, like he has to come back in January. I had no idea what this mat and so they sort of like closed my tooth that was unfinished, and we laughed, and I remember having this feeling of an unfinished mouth walking around, not realizing why I had to wait till January. Later on in life, I learned, oh, dental plans for union workers who have worked menial jobs my dad was dishwasher at a nursing home are not comprehensive. So we had an out of pocket max, which meant a root canal. The whole cost of a root canal was more than the benefit I had per year, And so I end up ironically working in health insurance and that became my passion. I was like, this is crazy that in a country that is spends more money than any country in the world on healthcare doesn't provide adequate, comprehensive, high quality care to all of its citizens with dignity and respect. There's so much of a lack of dignity or respect. When a father has a tether son, I'm going to bring you back to finish a tooth next year. So I know he felt that as a hard hit and I could see it as a kid that he was kind of like, I'm not doing enough, And that became my passion. That's why I'm in the health equity space today of no one, no one, no one should not get comprehensive care that they deserve that's culturally sensitive and of high quality. Yeah.

I talk about it in the books. I see it right now vividly. Had to get a root canal when I was a kid, and I went to the dentist, and a dentist told my dad and these are I was talking, so like you're off to the side. You don't know, it's sure right, And it's interesting what kids remember right when they're older. And the dentist and I told my dad, we can't complete the work until January first of next year. So even though you started, it was like September, like he has to come back in January. I had no idea what this mat and so they sort of like closed my tooth that was unfinished, and we laughed, and I remember having this feeling of an unfinished mouth walking around, not realizing why I had to wait till January. Later on in life, I learned, oh, dental plans for union workers who have worked menial jobs my dad was dishwasher at a nursing home are not comprehensive. So we had an out of pocket max, which meant a root canal. The whole cost of a root canal was more than the benefit I had per year, And so I end up ironically working in health insurance and that became my passion. I was like, this is crazy that in a country that is spends more money than any country in the world on healthcare doesn't provide adequate, comprehensive, high quality care to all of its citizens with dignity and respect. There's so much of a lack of dignity or respect. When a father has a tether son, I'm going to bring you back to finish a tooth next year. So I know he felt that as a hard hit and I could see it as a kid that he was kind of like, I'm not doing enough, And that became my passion. That's why I'm in the health equity space today of no one, no one, no one should not get comprehensive care that they deserve that's culturally sensitive and of high quality. Yeah.

I mean there again we go back to sort of these are headlines and buzzwords, right. The lack of comprehensive health care has real world impact, like all of these things, but until you live it, until you really understand the personal impact of that it's just a headline. It's just something to be mad about. It's just something to say we should all move to Canada or you know whatever, the things that we do that are not in the muck of the real human toll of that. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean there again we go back to sort of these are headlines and buzzwords, right. The lack of comprehensive health care has real world impact, like all of these things, but until you live it, until you really understand the personal impact of that it's just a headline. It's just something to be mad about. It's just something to say we should all move to Canada or you know whatever, the things that we do that are not in the muck of the real human toll of that. Yeah. Yeah.

The one thing I'd add too, is we shouldn't wait until it happens to us for it to be validated. So I don't need to have someone else experience lack of health care for me to say, oh, it happened to my mother, so now I believe in it. And unfortunately lead it happens a lot in America where it's like, well, I don't experience it, so it's not real until it happens to you. Then you're like, well, I'm speaking from you know, experience, This is a real It shouldn't be that way. If one human experienced it, then it's valid.

The one thing I'd add too, is we shouldn't wait until it happens to us for it to be validated. So I don't need to have someone else experience lack of health care for me to say, oh, it happened to my mother, so now I believe in it. And unfortunately lead it happens a lot in America where it's like, well, I don't experience it, so it's not real until it happens to you. Then you're like, well, I'm speaking from you know, experience, This is a real It shouldn't be that way. If one human experienced it, then it's valid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I would love that. I would love if human brains work that way. But it does seem like there's something important that has to happen to sort of open those doors in the brain to recognize somebody else as deserving of support and access and care and all of those things. There's this great I'm not going to go on this tangent for too long. But there's this great book called General Theory of Love written by three psychiatrists. It's an older book now, but they talk about how there were experiments done on the limbic part of the brain in mammals. I promise this is related to what you were just saying. But what they found, and sorry, this is an animal study, everybody, not my study. Don't yell at me. But what they found was that if they damaged the limbic part of the brain of female hamsters, that those female hamsters wouldn't recognize their own offspring, they would basically treat them as furniture, and that if they stimulated the limbic part of the brain, then everybody was family and they cared for each other, and they like so, so of course me. I'm like, So, what we're saying is that for the people who enact policies that do actual damage to real, actual people, they have limbic deficits, and there's some limbic damage in there, and what we need to do is find some way to help them reconnect with the part of their brains that sees every life life as valid and deserving of care, and how the heck do we do that? I don't know, but I do know that some of that work is advocacy work. I told you I could bring this back right a lot. So some of the ways that we do that that we help people understand that things need to happen to make things better for others, even if it's not your own shared experience. Like that's advocacy work in a nutshell, And a lot of your public advocacy work is in health equity. That phrase health equity is something that we sometimes see in headlines, So can you tell me, first of all, what that means in a business and policy sense, and then what it means for you personally. We touched on that a bit, but I like the two parter here.

I mean, I would love that. I would love if human brains work that way. But it does seem like there's something important that has to happen to sort of open those doors in the brain to recognize somebody else as deserving of support and access and care and all of those things. There's this great I'm not going to go on this tangent for too long. But there's this great book called General Theory of Love written by three psychiatrists. It's an older book now, but they talk about how there were experiments done on the limbic part of the brain in mammals. I promise this is related to what you were just saying. But what they found, and sorry, this is an animal study, everybody, not my study. Don't yell at me. But what they found was that if they damaged the limbic part of the brain of female hamsters, that those female hamsters wouldn't recognize their own offspring, they would basically treat them as furniture, and that if they stimulated the limbic part of the brain, then everybody was family and they cared for each other, and they like so, so of course me. I'm like, So, what we're saying is that for the people who enact policies that do actual damage to real, actual people, they have limbic deficits, and there's some limbic damage in there, and what we need to do is find some way to help them reconnect with the part of their brains that sees every life life as valid and deserving of care, and how the heck do we do that? I don't know, but I do know that some of that work is advocacy work. I told you I could bring this back right a lot. So some of the ways that we do that that we help people understand that things need to happen to make things better for others, even if it's not your own shared experience. Like that's advocacy work in a nutshell, And a lot of your public advocacy work is in health equity. That phrase health equity is something that we sometimes see in headlines, So can you tell me, first of all, what that means in a business and policy sense, and then what it means for you personally. We touched on that a bit, but I like the two parter here.

Yeah. Sure. So health equity the intent is it's different than equality. Health equality equal would mean everyone gets a visit to physician. One visit to a physician, that's equal, But some patient they need six visits, and some patients may be so healthy they need zero. So health equity looks from an economic lens, how to take limited resources and make sure that they're used in the most equitable efficient way based on the needs of the people. And so the example you know you can use is like one patient may need a wheelchair, doesn't mean everyone needs a wheelchair for it to be equal. But from an equabal perspective, say, give this person a wheelchair, this other person may need something else. And so we spend two point five times more than any other country in a nation. We don't need more money, we need better bureaucratic systems to make sure that the money flows to the right places. And so what health equity fights for is today there is somewhere in New York City a mom who's a single mom with a child who we'll go to the doctor because by taking off work means they won't make money, and so they stay at work and their sickness gets worse and they end up in the emergency room at the worst point. And then on the same vein there's another mom who can take off work because they're salaried, and they decide to bring their child to off the doctor's office twenty times for stiffools, earaches, anything, And that person who's going twenty times can probably go four times. And then the mom who never went once should probably go twice at least for preventive care. Visit in the follow up, and what health equity tries to do is shake that. It turns into sometimes controversial because it's like you're taking something from someone you're ration in care. Ironically, every developed nation on the planet besides US, does healthcare that way. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden. That's how they do care. They say, the people who need it get it. The people who don't need it, they will be a little bit longer. That's just how it works when you have limited resources. So that's really helped equity. You layer onto it as well. Cultural competency re happen to be some of the most diverse cities in the world in America, and so you're thinking through English is not the first language. What happens when someone's telling you, you know, discharge information on how to leave a hospital. So if someone's saying to you you need to have a meal with these medications that you take twice a day, and it's not in their native language, so they understand those instructions and will they abide by it. The example what I always used too is someone with pneumonia shows up to the emergency room. You stabilize them, you give them medication, you send them home, they end up going back to a Nisia house building public housing that doesn't have heat. We didn't solve the issue. So howth acouady also thinks about the other determinants of health that's outside of just getting access to care, but other things that also lead to health outcomes.

Yeah. Sure. So health equity the intent is it's different than equality. Health equality equal would mean everyone gets a visit to physician. One visit to a physician, that's equal, But some patient they need six visits, and some patients may be so healthy they need zero. So health equity looks from an economic lens, how to take limited resources and make sure that they're used in the most equitable efficient way based on the needs of the people. And so the example you know you can use is like one patient may need a wheelchair, doesn't mean everyone needs a wheelchair for it to be equal. But from an equabal perspective, say, give this person a wheelchair, this other person may need something else. And so we spend two point five times more than any other country in a nation. We don't need more money, we need better bureaucratic systems to make sure that the money flows to the right places. And so what health equity fights for is today there is somewhere in New York City a mom who's a single mom with a child who we'll go to the doctor because by taking off work means they won't make money, and so they stay at work and their sickness gets worse and they end up in the emergency room at the worst point. And then on the same vein there's another mom who can take off work because they're salaried, and they decide to bring their child to off the doctor's office twenty times for stiffools, earaches, anything, And that person who's going twenty times can probably go four times. And then the mom who never went once should probably go twice at least for preventive care. Visit in the follow up, and what health equity tries to do is shake that. It turns into sometimes controversial because it's like you're taking something from someone you're ration in care. Ironically, every developed nation on the planet besides US, does healthcare that way. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden. That's how they do care. They say, the people who need it get it. The people who don't need it, they will be a little bit longer. That's just how it works when you have limited resources. So that's really helped equity. You layer onto it as well. Cultural competency re happen to be some of the most diverse cities in the world in America, and so you're thinking through English is not the first language. What happens when someone's telling you, you know, discharge information on how to leave a hospital. So if someone's saying to you you need to have a meal with these medications that you take twice a day, and it's not in their native language, so they understand those instructions and will they abide by it. The example what I always used too is someone with pneumonia shows up to the emergency room. You stabilize them, you give them medication, you send them home, they end up going back to a Nisia house building public housing that doesn't have heat. We didn't solve the issue. So howth acouady also thinks about the other determinants of health that's outside of just getting access to care, but other things that also lead to health outcomes.

Yeah, it's really looking at the whole complex picture of things and understanding that we don't operate in a vacuum.

Yeah, it's really looking at the whole complex picture of things and understanding that we don't operate in a vacuum.

Correct.

Correct.

And I think that industry and corporate levels often think just in one channel, right, Yeah, just one channel and not in systems. And it's like, you know, I'm listening to you say the you know, the economic benefit of equitable care, Like we have to actually make it fit into the language that industry speaks, which is economics. Right, it's ROI And that actually caring for people in the ways that they need to be cared for is to your economic benefit. Is that a hard sell?

And I think that industry and corporate levels often think just in one channel, right, Yeah, just one channel and not in systems. And it's like, you know, I'm listening to you say the you know, the economic benefit of equitable care, Like we have to actually make it fit into the language that industry speaks, which is economics. Right, it's ROI And that actually caring for people in the ways that they need to be cared for is to your economic benefit. Is that a hard sell?

Now?

Now?

I'm just now I'm just indulging my curiosity. But is that a hard sell inside the healthcare industry for you?

I'm just now I'm just indulging my curiosity. But is that a hard sell inside the healthcare industry for you?

I don't think it's a hard sell. I think the work needed to get done to make it happen is the heart cell. So the example we can show is other developed nations like Norway, Sweden, they do lots of social programs for their citizens, stick paid leave, childcare, free health care, and what they find is their healthcare costs are reduced because they're investing in things that keep people healthy. Right, people believe that in concept. Now in America, when you say, okay, we agree with the concept, let's make it happen, somebody has to change. And that's what the robber is. No one wants to change. Like, I agree, ery health equity, let's do it. But can you leave me alone and start with them?

I don't think it's a hard sell. I think the work needed to get done to make it happen is the heart cell. So the example we can show is other developed nations like Norway, Sweden, they do lots of social programs for their citizens, stick paid leave, childcare, free health care, and what they find is their healthcare costs are reduced because they're investing in things that keep people healthy. Right, people believe that in concept. Now in America, when you say, okay, we agree with the concept, let's make it happen, somebody has to change. And that's what the robber is. No one wants to change. Like, I agree, ery health equity, let's do it. But can you leave me alone and start with them?

Right? I mean, I think this is probably you know, the response to a lot of behavioral and worldview changes, right, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

Right? I mean, I think this is probably you know, the response to a lot of behavioral and worldview changes, right, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

I'm on board as long as I don't have to do anything different, as long as I don't have to feel any discomfort, as long as nothing in my world needs to change. And of course there's a direct bridge here to addressing systemic racism in the medical industry. Oh yeah, right, Like, oh yeah, I'm totally on board with you. I get this. That's a terrible outcome. But I like, I've got managed care, and I've got this, and I've got that, Like, so we think about the healthcare industry, insurance especially as this like anti human monolith from a consumer, that is definitely how I feel about it. But I was listening to an interview with you the other day as I was preparing for time here together, and you were talking about systemic racism and what we call poor medical outcomes for people of color, and you used a term of systemic equity. Yes, as a counterpoint to systemic racism. Can we talk about that for a minute, And then I do want to get into like the reality of health outcomes for communities of color. So systemic equity, what does that mean?

I'm on board as long as I don't have to do anything different, as long as I don't have to feel any discomfort, as long as nothing in my world needs to change. And of course there's a direct bridge here to addressing systemic racism in the medical industry. Oh yeah, right, Like, oh yeah, I'm totally on board with you. I get this. That's a terrible outcome. But I like, I've got managed care, and I've got this, and I've got that, Like, so we think about the healthcare industry, insurance especially as this like anti human monolith from a consumer, that is definitely how I feel about it. But I was listening to an interview with you the other day as I was preparing for time here together, and you were talking about systemic racism and what we call poor medical outcomes for people of color, and you used a term of systemic equity. Yes, as a counterpoint to systemic racism. Can we talk about that for a minute, And then I do want to get into like the reality of health outcomes for communities of color. So systemic equity, what does that mean?

So I'll say that we're trying to fix the issues. And so when you think from a perspective of solving things, you hear the term that people use is systemic racism and systemic inequality because it's embedded into systems that we have. I like to say, let's start from scratch, Let's have a clean piece of paper, what would be the world we would imagine? So you start with systemic equity, and from that perspective, you're like, here's all the dollars, now, let's rationally think about how to get it fed. To the right places. Systemic equity would then say, okay, the best most efficient way to deliver care is to preventive care visits. Awesome. Here are a group of people who are unable to show up to the doctor because transportation is an issue, because they're a senior who lives on a shift floor walk up that doesn't have an elevator, because they are salaried, and anytime that they take off work, they're not putting money in their pocket. They can't find a doctor and speaks their language. The vaccination websites were only in English, so if they speak Urdu Chinese asient creole, they won't even know how to book an employment. So we would make sure there was more funds for those to get their preventive care visits, and then folks that can navigate the healthcare arena would eventually get their care as well because they have health literacy, they have the capabilities, they have transportation and things of that nature. And so instead of speaking of a deficit like oh my gosh, this systemic inequity and so bad, like, well, how would we create the perfect model where we start with systemic equity. It's embedded in the system. An example is when they created those vaccination websites for everyone to get vaccinated. Obviously, the people who were around the table were thinking through the lens of themselves. They like, I use a desktop and it's English, not realizing that the people who had the highest hensitency don't use desktop as their formal way to get into that access. They use a mobile phone and English is not their first language. So systemic Equity would have built a mobile app in Spanish and Chinese first. So that's the type of thing that I like to solve puzzles with. From that perspective, it's like, let's look at it from a Systemic Equity lens, start with the way you want to create it, as opposed to trying to move the deck chairs on something that's broken.

So I'll say that we're trying to fix the issues. And so when you think from a perspective of solving things, you hear the term that people use is systemic racism and systemic inequality because it's embedded into systems that we have. I like to say, let's start from scratch, Let's have a clean piece of paper, what would be the world we would imagine? So you start with systemic equity, and from that perspective, you're like, here's all the dollars, now, let's rationally think about how to get it fed. To the right places. Systemic equity would then say, okay, the best most efficient way to deliver care is to preventive care visits. Awesome. Here are a group of people who are unable to show up to the doctor because transportation is an issue, because they're a senior who lives on a shift floor walk up that doesn't have an elevator, because they are salaried, and anytime that they take off work, they're not putting money in their pocket. They can't find a doctor and speaks their language. The vaccination websites were only in English, so if they speak Urdu Chinese asient creole, they won't even know how to book an employment. So we would make sure there was more funds for those to get their preventive care visits, and then folks that can navigate the healthcare arena would eventually get their care as well because they have health literacy, they have the capabilities, they have transportation and things of that nature. And so instead of speaking of a deficit like oh my gosh, this systemic inequity and so bad, like, well, how would we create the perfect model where we start with systemic equity. It's embedded in the system. An example is when they created those vaccination websites for everyone to get vaccinated. Obviously, the people who were around the table were thinking through the lens of themselves. They like, I use a desktop and it's English, not realizing that the people who had the highest hensitency don't use desktop as their formal way to get into that access. They use a mobile phone and English is not their first language. So systemic Equity would have built a mobile app in Spanish and Chinese first. So that's the type of thing that I like to solve puzzles with. From that perspective, it's like, let's look at it from a Systemic Equity lens, start with the way you want to create it, as opposed to trying to move the deck chairs on something that's broken.

That is brilliant, It really is, because it's like I think, when you start talking about system racism systemic inequity, people get their hackles up just as what you describe like that sounds great, but don't make me change anything. But I think if you present things as let's start from scratch and what dream can we build yep, I think that maybe that engages people's limbic systems. I don't know, but there's something really welcoming about this idea of collaborating on the world we most want. I remember a teacher of mine used to say years ago, like everybody can agree that we want clean water. Where we argue is about who gets to have it, right, So I hear what you're saying there is like we can all agree that we want to be cared for, and we want to care for other people. We want to like indulge the wrong word here, but like indulge our better natures because at some core level, I think also, what I really love about that approach is it sort of has an unspoken baseline of people are good and want to do good right right, which I think can easily get lost in the choices that people and industries and countries.

That is brilliant, It really is, because it's like I think, when you start talking about system racism systemic inequity, people get their hackles up just as what you describe like that sounds great, but don't make me change anything. But I think if you present things as let's start from scratch and what dream can we build yep, I think that maybe that engages people's limbic systems. I don't know, but there's something really welcoming about this idea of collaborating on the world we most want. I remember a teacher of mine used to say years ago, like everybody can agree that we want clean water. Where we argue is about who gets to have it, right, So I hear what you're saying there is like we can all agree that we want to be cared for, and we want to care for other people. We want to like indulge the wrong word here, but like indulge our better natures because at some core level, I think also, what I really love about that approach is it sort of has an unspoken baseline of people are good and want to do good right right, which I think can easily get lost in the choices that people and industries and countries.

And you mentioned this, the phrase systemic racism can denote that it's impossible to solve. They say, oh, it's systemic, so now you're absolving human beings from their individual behaviors. Well, it's not me, it's systemic. And then too, it's systemic, so you're like, well, how am I going to change healthcare? That's too big, it's too and so I think it's defeating too from people of like I don't even know where to start. This is too big, and I now absolve of any responsibility because it's the system. So I also think the phrase also leads to some of that cynicism.

And you mentioned this, the phrase systemic racism can denote that it's impossible to solve. They say, oh, it's systemic, so now you're absolving human beings from their individual behaviors. Well, it's not me, it's systemic. And then too, it's systemic, so you're like, well, how am I going to change healthcare? That's too big, it's too and so I think it's defeating too from people of like I don't even know where to start. This is too big, and I now absolve of any responsibility because it's the system. So I also think the phrase also leads to some of that cynicism.

I love that it really is a welcoming in thing. Like you know, at the time that we're recording La County and while all of California has been getting pelted with a lot of rain, and there's a lot of pissy tweets out there saying, good job, Elly, you didn't keep the water right when like, Okay, you clearly have no idea how water reclamation works on a big systemic level. But like, these are really big, complex issues and it's not just up to the big complex forces to solve. There are things that we can do as individuals to help make things different. It's not just passing things downstream to somebody else whose job it is. Right. Yeah, and we go back to sort of advocacy and finding places that are important to you to take action, right, I want to talk a little bit about your work in Haiti, if we could do that from an it Hey, before we get back to this week's guest, I want to talk with you about exploring your losses through writing. There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing. My thirty Day Writing your Grief course is not like that. Are deeper, their more nuanced. They're designed to get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now, writing isn't going to cure anything, but it can help you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful. You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course at Refuge in Grief dot Com backslash wyg. That is WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample prompt from the course and get writing your own words in minutes. My thirty Day Writing your Grief Course is still one of the best things I've ever made for you. Come join more than ten thousand people who have taken the Writing your Grief Course Refuge in Grief dot Com backslash wyg, or you can find the link in the show notes. I want to talk a little bit about your work in Haiti if we could do that from an it so. You're on the board of Meta Nova, which is a nonprofit that provides free medical character residents of North Eastern Haiti and as I was reading about that work, and we talked a second ago about like the lenses that we look through. I see every thing as a grief issue. Everything is a grief issue in my opinion. But reading about that work, I was like, this is this is a grief issue, right, Advocacy and policy are a grief issue. But I want to hear that from you, is do you think that's accurate? Is my assessment that, like policy is a grief issue?

I love that it really is a welcoming in thing. Like you know, at the time that we're recording La County and while all of California has been getting pelted with a lot of rain, and there's a lot of pissy tweets out there saying, good job, Elly, you didn't keep the water right when like, Okay, you clearly have no idea how water reclamation works on a big systemic level. But like, these are really big, complex issues and it's not just up to the big complex forces to solve. There are things that we can do as individuals to help make things different. It's not just passing things downstream to somebody else whose job it is. Right. Yeah, and we go back to sort of advocacy and finding places that are important to you to take action, right, I want to talk a little bit about your work in Haiti, if we could do that from an it Hey, before we get back to this week's guest, I want to talk with you about exploring your losses through writing. There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing. My thirty Day Writing your Grief course is not like that. Are deeper, their more nuanced. They're designed to get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now, writing isn't going to cure anything, but it can help you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful. You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course at Refuge in Grief dot Com backslash wyg. That is WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample prompt from the course and get writing your own words in minutes. My thirty Day Writing your Grief Course is still one of the best things I've ever made for you. Come join more than ten thousand people who have taken the Writing your Grief Course Refuge in Grief dot Com backslash wyg, or you can find the link in the show notes. I want to talk a little bit about your work in Haiti if we could do that from an it so. You're on the board of Meta Nova, which is a nonprofit that provides free medical character residents of North Eastern Haiti and as I was reading about that work, and we talked a second ago about like the lenses that we look through. I see every thing as a grief issue. Everything is a grief issue in my opinion. But reading about that work, I was like, this is this is a grief issue, right, Advocacy and policy are a grief issue. But I want to hear that from you, is do you think that's accurate? Is my assessment that, like policy is a grief issue?

I think so. I've never thought of it through that lens, But as you say it, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So Haiti and I said this earlier. I mean what they've gone through is just traumatic as a whole foreign nation. God is independence in eighteen oh four from the biggest empires at the time, the Poleon Bonaparte, and ever since then they've been sort of punished because back then, to see a country get as freedom as former slaves would have been, you know, lead to other countries to do the same. So a lot of countries didn't even recognize their independence, didn't trade with them, and they sort of got stuck in a rut. France ended up charging them debt, so they basically bought their own boy, which is just insane that that happened. One of the few countries I actually had to pay for their freedom. And so that all you fast forward to a country that is consistently just getting bombarded by whether natural disasters, hurricanes, earthquakes, or just cous after cous, Like right now, they don't have a stable government as it is. Their former president was assassinated and they still have a new president, and so I'm thinking through that lens of like what can I do. I'm an American, my parents grew up in Haiti, but I feel like I can do something because I'm so thankful for where I am in my career, and that's where I stumbled upon medi Nova. There was the major earthquake, seven point something earthquake in twenty ten, and that was sort of the impetus for me to know that I had to go back to the country of my father, and so I was like, I need to do something. I can't just sit here and donate to American Red Cross, like I felt the need that I had to be there, and so twenty ten was my first visit to Haiti on a mission trip, and we just like at that point in time. It was literally like all hands on deck providing food. We were at a tent based hospital, providing like immediate care. And the ironic thing is things that we take for granted, that we buy over the counter at CBS and Walgreens, these were medications we were giving to people in Haiti because they don't have it. So you know, someone's suffering from diarrhea, like simple things, and so I didn't think we would be giving out peptibis ball as a need, but that's what people needed at the time because the water was so dirty after an earthquake, and so it was just something I knew that I wanted to give back and I felt the purpose too. Medi Nova does these trips every year, so I've been back to Haiti every year since twenty ten, with the exception of twenty twenty because of COVID, but I've gone every year. It was besides that, and we've since raised enough money to have a full time clinic. So one of the things with nonprofits are, you know, you do these humanitarian trips and you just show up, you give out care, and you leave, and people always say, well, how is that continuous? What do you do? You're just a drop in the bucket, and so we really wanted to have a stable, long term healthcare access point for the people of Haiti. And so we've since built the clinic in the city of Kara Call that's now open twenty four hours, seven days a week. It's staff by Haitians, it's run by Haitians, it's service Hatians. And so we've done race for keeping that clinic open. And I sit on the board just always thinking about advocacy on how to keep those patients that are working there safe, and then when it's safe again, bringing Americans to Haiti so they can see it for themselves.

I think so. I've never thought of it through that lens, But as you say it, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So Haiti and I said this earlier. I mean what they've gone through is just traumatic as a whole foreign nation. God is independence in eighteen oh four from the biggest empires at the time, the Poleon Bonaparte, and ever since then they've been sort of punished because back then, to see a country get as freedom as former slaves would have been, you know, lead to other countries to do the same. So a lot of countries didn't even recognize their independence, didn't trade with them, and they sort of got stuck in a rut. France ended up charging them debt, so they basically bought their own boy, which is just insane that that happened. One of the few countries I actually had to pay for their freedom. And so that all you fast forward to a country that is consistently just getting bombarded by whether natural disasters, hurricanes, earthquakes, or just cous after cous, Like right now, they don't have a stable government as it is. Their former president was assassinated and they still have a new president, and so I'm thinking through that lens of like what can I do. I'm an American, my parents grew up in Haiti, but I feel like I can do something because I'm so thankful for where I am in my career, and that's where I stumbled upon medi Nova. There was the major earthquake, seven point something earthquake in twenty ten, and that was sort of the impetus for me to know that I had to go back to the country of my father, and so I was like, I need to do something. I can't just sit here and donate to American Red Cross, like I felt the need that I had to be there, and so twenty ten was my first visit to Haiti on a mission trip, and we just like at that point in time. It was literally like all hands on deck providing food. We were at a tent based hospital, providing like immediate care. And the ironic thing is things that we take for granted, that we buy over the counter at CBS and Walgreens, these were medications we were giving to people in Haiti because they don't have it. So you know, someone's suffering from diarrhea, like simple things, and so I didn't think we would be giving out peptibis ball as a need, but that's what people needed at the time because the water was so dirty after an earthquake, and so it was just something I knew that I wanted to give back and I felt the purpose too. Medi Nova does these trips every year, so I've been back to Haiti every year since twenty ten, with the exception of twenty twenty because of COVID, but I've gone every year. It was besides that, and we've since raised enough money to have a full time clinic. So one of the things with nonprofits are, you know, you do these humanitarian trips and you just show up, you give out care, and you leave, and people always say, well, how is that continuous? What do you do? You're just a drop in the bucket, and so we really wanted to have a stable, long term healthcare access point for the people of Haiti. And so we've since built the clinic in the city of Kara Call that's now open twenty four hours, seven days a week. It's staff by Haitians, it's run by Haitians, it's service Hatians. And so we've done race for keeping that clinic open. And I sit on the board just always thinking about advocacy on how to keep those patients that are working there safe, and then when it's safe again, bringing Americans to Haiti so they can see it for themselves.

So as you're describing that, I'm wondering. We talked a few minutes ago about building the world that we want from the ground up. Do you feel like that's part of what's happening with Medan Nova and the work in Haiti.

So as you're describing that, I'm wondering. We talked a few minutes ago about building the world that we want from the ground up. Do you feel like that's part of what's happening with Medan Nova and the work in Haiti.

It's tough, the things impacting Haiti are so big and multi layered. However, if the least I can do is, and this gets back to health equity, provide culturally competent care, so these are Asian doctors and nurses gettle care to Haitians. What tends to happen is a lot of NGOs show up and they're providing great care to doing what they need to do, but it's not in language, it's not culturally relevant. So I love the fact that this clinic is run by Haitians and staff by Haitians, So we're doing apart from that perspective. And then we're helping the economy because we hire from the community where the clinic is. I would love to think it can expand the hardest part about it is trying to think through how to make it sustainable on its own so it doesn't need donations. I will continue to obviously raise funds, but we have to think the next step of how this become sustainable. Over time, I think we'll get to the point of creating the new future when within Haiti there could be systems that are sustainable on their own that can help their own people.

It's tough, the things impacting Haiti are so big and multi layered. However, if the least I can do is, and this gets back to health equity, provide culturally competent care, so these are Asian doctors and nurses gettle care to Haitians. What tends to happen is a lot of NGOs show up and they're providing great care to doing what they need to do, but it's not in language, it's not culturally relevant. So I love the fact that this clinic is run by Haitians and staff by Haitians, So we're doing apart from that perspective. And then we're helping the economy because we hire from the community where the clinic is. I would love to think it can expand the hardest part about it is trying to think through how to make it sustainable on its own so it doesn't need donations. I will continue to obviously raise funds, but we have to think the next step of how this become sustainable. Over time, I think we'll get to the point of creating the new future when within Haiti there could be systems that are sustainable on their own that can help their own people.

Yeah, there's a point here that I want to pull out that as we start to build into that dream of systemic equity and place care where it needs to be placed. It doesn't mean that things don't suck. It doesn't mean that there isn't still suffering and complex issues and being in the path of natural disasters like that. The best organized healthcare system is not going to stop hurricanes. And bringing this back to the States, It's like health care systemic equity is not going to stop people from getting sick. It's not going to stop people from dying. If that's not our goal, what's our goal.

Yeah, there's a point here that I want to pull out that as we start to build into that dream of systemic equity and place care where it needs to be placed. It doesn't mean that things don't suck. It doesn't mean that there isn't still suffering and complex issues and being in the path of natural disasters like that. The best organized healthcare system is not going to stop hurricanes. And bringing this back to the States, It's like health care systemic equity is not going to stop people from getting sick. It's not going to stop people from dying. If that's not our goal, what's our goal.

So it doesn't stop people from getting sick, but what it will start is that person who is sick to say, I'm actually going to make effort to get the care I need because the barriers have been removed. I can count endless stories of people who were sick and for go for went care because they knew the system was bad. They knew they were going to be on a waiting line for four hours. They knew they were going to wait on line just to get a script to go see another doctor. They knew they were going to get a bill in the mail for four hundred bucks and they have no idea how they're going to pay for it. And so if you think about a model war, yes, we can't prevent people from getting sick, but can we make a model that when you are sick, at least you know you're going to get the care you need and you're going to feel respect and so that you actually go and get the care you need. The vast majority of our pain that we feel on the system is because of people avoiding care, one because of cost, two because of fear, and then then three just because they don't feel the systems built for them. I'll to share one stat so Martunity. Mortality in America is as bad as third world countries are stats. So, if you take one hundred thousand women and they're pregnant, on average, fifteen of them will die giving birth. And if you look at other countries like Japan or Norway, it's like seven and six and five, and you're in some European countries, so it's low. We're fifteen. Now when you look at African American women, it jumps up to forty, and then specifically Haitian women in Brooklyn where I live, it's like sixty eight.

So it doesn't stop people from getting sick, but what it will start is that person who is sick to say, I'm actually going to make effort to get the care I need because the barriers have been removed. I can count endless stories of people who were sick and for go for went care because they knew the system was bad. They knew they were going to be on a waiting line for four hours. They knew they were going to wait on line just to get a script to go see another doctor. They knew they were going to get a bill in the mail for four hundred bucks and they have no idea how they're going to pay for it. And so if you think about a model war, yes, we can't prevent people from getting sick, but can we make a model that when you are sick, at least you know you're going to get the care you need and you're going to feel respect and so that you actually go and get the care you need. The vast majority of our pain that we feel on the system is because of people avoiding care, one because of cost, two because of fear, and then then three just because they don't feel the systems built for them. I'll to share one stat so Martunity. Mortality in America is as bad as third world countries are stats. So, if you take one hundred thousand women and they're pregnant, on average, fifteen of them will die giving birth. And if you look at other countries like Japan or Norway, it's like seven and six and five, and you're in some European countries, so it's low. We're fifteen. Now when you look at African American women, it jumps up to forty, and then specifically Haitian women in Brooklyn where I live, it's like sixty eight.

Wow.

Wow.

And so in America we have the average of fifteen, but different people have much higher numbers. And the question is, well, why is that? And when you look at the data, when a black woman gives birth and goes into the hospital, one their level of pain is not believed that this happened to Serena Williams. So it doesn't matter if you're lowing toumb or you're a billionaire. Their level of pain is not believed. So they say, you know, on a scalf of one to ten, how's your pain? Black woman says eight, and they're like, oh, you're exaggerating because I think you're strong. Maybe you're a big woman, your skin looks tough. You guys just know how to get through things. So they're not believed from that perspective. And then two, for some strange reason, and this is from bias, typical regimens that's supposed to be provided aren't provided to patience of color because they're like, well they don't need that. Oh I don't I'm not going to give it. I'm not going to do that. And so you actually see patient pattern changes that happen specifically to a woman of color giving birth Black women, and so we know the reasons why it's sixty eight patient mothers are going to die when they give birth out of one hundred thousand versus fifteen. And then it's like, are we going to have the intestin afforded to to call it out and say we can fix it. We know we can fix it. We're going to believe them when they say what pain level they're at, and we're going to give the same level of care. So this mother that we would any other mother that walks in, and we're not going to let the color of their skin have like implicit bias and have us do something different. There's a good book called a Tlobo one day called Checklist Manifesto, and essentially it's like, make a checklist that way, there's no bias. Have everyone who comes in that presents this way, they get this, and you remove the bias of this like subjectivity of the doctor saying, ah, they don't need that, I'm going to be we'll do this, which then leads to death.

And so in America we have the average of fifteen, but different people have much higher numbers. And the question is, well, why is that? And when you look at the data, when a black woman gives birth and goes into the hospital, one their level of pain is not believed that this happened to Serena Williams. So it doesn't matter if you're lowing toumb or you're a billionaire. Their level of pain is not believed. So they say, you know, on a scalf of one to ten, how's your pain? Black woman says eight, and they're like, oh, you're exaggerating because I think you're strong. Maybe you're a big woman, your skin looks tough. You guys just know how to get through things. So they're not believed from that perspective. And then two, for some strange reason, and this is from bias, typical regimens that's supposed to be provided aren't provided to patience of color because they're like, well they don't need that. Oh I don't I'm not going to give it. I'm not going to do that. And so you actually see patient pattern changes that happen specifically to a woman of color giving birth Black women, and so we know the reasons why it's sixty eight patient mothers are going to die when they give birth out of one hundred thousand versus fifteen. And then it's like, are we going to have the intestin afforded to to call it out and say we can fix it. We know we can fix it. We're going to believe them when they say what pain level they're at, and we're going to give the same level of care. So this mother that we would any other mother that walks in, and we're not going to let the color of their skin have like implicit bias and have us do something different. There's a good book called a Tlobo one day called Checklist Manifesto, and essentially it's like, make a checklist that way, there's no bias. Have everyone who comes in that presents this way, they get this, and you remove the bias of this like subjectivity of the doctor saying, ah, they don't need that, I'm going to be we'll do this, which then leads to death.

You know.

You know.

With with that type of process, without having a checklist manifesto, all.

With with that type of process, without having a checklist manifesto, all.

Of this awareness and advocacy and addressing systemic patterns, all of these things, the work you do is grief work, right because again, I'm going to go back to headlines, right, Like we see the articles and the news stories and the clips of maternal death rates for black women, and it's a headline, right, and it might be something that we say like that sucks, like that's not right, and then we go back to you know, if that hasn't been in our personal sphere, we go back to you know, everything is a dumpster fire. If that has been in our personal sphere, we say, yeah, I lived that, and it's it's this big thing that we can't we can't seem to get people to pay attention to. But these are like, these are actual, real people and families and communities that are living the effects of these practices. And so you know, you don't have to claim that you do grief work. But from where I sit, like all of this advocacy work on so many levels, is to reduce pain where there is pain, avoid pain where pain can be avoided, and where we can't avoid pain, we care for the suffering of the individuals, the families, and the communities to surround that suffering with support. And that's grief work.

Of this awareness and advocacy and addressing systemic patterns, all of these things, the work you do is grief work, right because again, I'm going to go back to headlines, right, Like we see the articles and the news stories and the clips of maternal death rates for black women, and it's a headline, right, and it might be something that we say like that sucks, like that's not right, and then we go back to you know, if that hasn't been in our personal sphere, we go back to you know, everything is a dumpster fire. If that has been in our personal sphere, we say, yeah, I lived that, and it's it's this big thing that we can't we can't seem to get people to pay attention to. But these are like, these are actual, real people and families and communities that are living the effects of these practices. And so you know, you don't have to claim that you do grief work. But from where I sit, like all of this advocacy work on so many levels, is to reduce pain where there is pain, avoid pain where pain can be avoided, and where we can't avoid pain, we care for the suffering of the individuals, the families, and the communities to surround that suffering with support. And that's grief work.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate it.

I want to go back to the focus of your book if I can. It kind of feels like a sharp detour from what we've been talking about. But again for me, like I don't see the territory that we've just been exploring and your book as too separate things because we can't divorce. I think you started out by saying this, like, you can't take the social and communal lived experience and separate it from your experienvperience in the job force, in the work world, like there is no what is that? What's that show that I haven't watched? Where like there's an enforced separation between work and your world.

I want to go back to the focus of your book if I can. It kind of feels like a sharp detour from what we've been talking about. But again for me, like I don't see the territory that we've just been exploring and your book as too separate things because we can't divorce. I think you started out by saying this, like, you can't take the social and communal lived experience and separate it from your experienvperience in the job force, in the work world, like there is no what is that? What's that show that I haven't watched? Where like there's an enforced separation between work and your world.

I'm actually talking about I think like office space or something.

I'm actually talking about I think like office space or something.

Severance, right, Like, I sorry, everybody, I am under an entertainment rock and I haven't seen it, but I do know what it is enough to reference it here, But like that doesn't.

Severance, right, Like, I sorry, everybody, I am under an entertainment rock and I haven't seen it, but I do know what it is enough to reference it here, But like that doesn't.

Exist, right, And so a lot of what you do in your book is naming those on the job and off the job issues and helping people navigate them. One of my favorite things about your approach is, like, you know, you think about a business a business coach. You're not a business coach, but you think about like business coaching, and they're like, you can do anything, nothing is impossible. And what I love about you as a human and you as a leader is you don't say that stuff because the reality is is that some things are impossible and you can't do everything that you dream And if we could start having those conversations, that could really change things.

Exist, right, And so a lot of what you do in your book is naming those on the job and off the job issues and helping people navigate them. One of my favorite things about your approach is, like, you know, you think about a business a business coach. You're not a business coach, but you think about like business coaching, and they're like, you can do anything, nothing is impossible. And what I love about you as a human and you as a leader is you don't say that stuff because the reality is is that some things are impossible and you can't do everything that you dream And if we could start having those conversations, that could really change things.

Yeah, yeah, I call out specifically the example of not becoming the race police in your corporation. So, yes, diversity, equity, and inclusion is important. Yes, you should call out bias that you feel in the workplace, and you should do it in the right way, and there's tips that I talk about how to do it and giving people grace through the process. But you cannot be the police for the company on what's racist and what's not as a person of color navigating through what's biased and what's not, what's discriminatory, what's not, because it will take you so far away from your day job. It'll be let go, not because of bringing up these issues, but because it's impossible to perform the way you need to perform while trying to police human behavior. And so I always say, like, like we talked about earlier, society comes into the workplace, it's not two different worlds. So you know, you're literally trying to say, oh, I'm going to throw every starfish back into the ocean. It's impossible. So do what you need to do to navigate for your career, help out your peers. But by no means are you going to change the world. Because trying to say like my company is going to be perfect, Like society is not perfect. Until society is perfect, your company won't be perfect. So don't try to have that goal. Your goal is make sure that you have the right mental health, make sure that you're taking advantage of all the opportunities you can, make sure you don't get walked over and taken advantage of. You speak up when you see things, and you navigate on behalf of you and your peers. But that's to the point of you know, I'm not going to be someone that's like raw, you can change the world. Everyone's going to be perfect panacea. It's like it's not worth it, and it's not possible either.

Yeah, yeah, I call out specifically the example of not becoming the race police in your corporation. So, yes, diversity, equity, and inclusion is important. Yes, you should call out bias that you feel in the workplace, and you should do it in the right way, and there's tips that I talk about how to do it and giving people grace through the process. But you cannot be the police for the company on what's racist and what's not as a person of color navigating through what's biased and what's not, what's discriminatory, what's not, because it will take you so far away from your day job. It'll be let go, not because of bringing up these issues, but because it's impossible to perform the way you need to perform while trying to police human behavior. And so I always say, like, like we talked about earlier, society comes into the workplace, it's not two different worlds. So you know, you're literally trying to say, oh, I'm going to throw every starfish back into the ocean. It's impossible. So do what you need to do to navigate for your career, help out your peers. But by no means are you going to change the world. Because trying to say like my company is going to be perfect, Like society is not perfect. Until society is perfect, your company won't be perfect. So don't try to have that goal. Your goal is make sure that you have the right mental health, make sure that you're taking advantage of all the opportunities you can, make sure you don't get walked over and taken advantage of. You speak up when you see things, and you navigate on behalf of you and your peers. But that's to the point of you know, I'm not going to be someone that's like raw, you can change the world. Everyone's going to be perfect panacea. It's like it's not worth it, and it's not possible either.

It's not possible. And I love how you know, when we very first started our conversation, you said that a lot of your work is about acknowledgedging the challenges for people of color in that corporate leadership climb. And for me, like, the acknowledgment is such powerful medicine, right, having spaces where you can tell the truth about that, And I think that's some of the beauty of your business leader work is you're naming what's true, yeah, right, and not from this and we will fix it. All place, and also not from a collapsed we're all screwed, but from like this real position of awareness and support and encouragement in the things that are within your sphere of control, so that you can meet the level of success that you most dream of for yourself while acknowledging the real difficulties on the road to get there.