Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me Tommy Diderio. Today's guest is the brilliant Matthew Lopez. He's a director, a screenwriter, and a Tony Award winning playwright. And on top of that, Tony add on maybe six or seven other noteworthy awards for his play The Inheritance, which I was lucky enough to see on Broadway, and I was so incredibly moved by, and being the theater geek that I am, I also saw another show he co wrote, which was the musical adaptation for Some Like It Hot, also fantastic. But today we are diving into Red White and Royal Blue, one of the most anticipated movies of the year that Matthew co wrote and directed. Now, this film is an adaptation of the best selling novel by Casey mcquisten, and I would say it's arguably one of the most popular books ever written. So here's the story. Alex is the son of the American President, and he is in a feud with Prince Henry of Britain and at one event that they both are attending, that few becomes pretty public when it comes to a head. So to prevent a wedge from being driven into the US and British relations, Alex and Prince Henry are forced to stage a truce that well it, you know, sparks something unexpected and deeper than anyone could have imagined. And I think you can guess some love ensues. Matthew brings this queer love story from the pages to the screen in the most beautiful way. And let's just say, while watching this, yeah, I shed quite a few tears. I know, I know, I am a sucker for love. What can I say? So let's see if today we can get Matthew to say something that he's never said before. Matthew, how are you, my friend?

Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me Tommy Diderio. Today's guest is the brilliant Matthew Lopez. He's a director, a screenwriter, and a Tony Award winning playwright. And on top of that, Tony add on maybe six or seven other noteworthy awards for his play The Inheritance, which I was lucky enough to see on Broadway, and I was so incredibly moved by, and being the theater geek that I am, I also saw another show he co wrote, which was the musical adaptation for Some Like It Hot, also fantastic. But today we are diving into Red White and Royal Blue, one of the most anticipated movies of the year that Matthew co wrote and directed. Now, this film is an adaptation of the best selling novel by Casey mcquisten, and I would say it's arguably one of the most popular books ever written. So here's the story. Alex is the son of the American President, and he is in a feud with Prince Henry of Britain and at one event that they both are attending, that few becomes pretty public when it comes to a head. So to prevent a wedge from being driven into the US and British relations, Alex and Prince Henry are forced to stage a truce that well it, you know, sparks something unexpected and deeper than anyone could have imagined. And I think you can guess some love ensues. Matthew brings this queer love story from the pages to the screen in the most beautiful way. And let's just say, while watching this, yeah, I shed quite a few tears. I know, I know, I am a sucker for love. What can I say? So let's see if today we can get Matthew to say something that he's never said before. Matthew, how are you, my friend?

I'm doing really well.

I'm doing really well.

Thanks good. I'm so happy you're here. I know you've had a crazy few days. You've been on a whirlwind tour for this movie, which but we're going to get all into I have to tell you, Ah, what can I say that will truly convey what it felt like watching this movie in that theater on Monday night at the screening, I mean, my husband and I went crazy over it. We laughed, we cried, we cheered, all the things and more. You did such a brilliant job with this movie. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I know it's your first film. Why did you want to make Red, White, and Royal Blue?

Thanks good. I'm so happy you're here. I know you've had a crazy few days. You've been on a whirlwind tour for this movie, which but we're going to get all into I have to tell you, Ah, what can I say that will truly convey what it felt like watching this movie in that theater on Monday night at the screening, I mean, my husband and I went crazy over it. We laughed, we cried, we cheered, all the things and more. You did such a brilliant job with this movie. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I know it's your first film. Why did you want to make Red, White, and Royal Blue?

It was about February, February twenty twenty and my agent sent me the book, and I had just opened Inheritance on Broadway, and I was looking to do something new. I wanted to start looking for a film to make, and then this book came along, and I just knew about page fifty, I kind of knew that this was the thing I wanted to do, and it was. And then the rest of the book was essentially me already starting to figure out how I might be able to make a film work out of this book. And I found out that Greg Burlanti, who was one of the producers of The Inheritance, had acquired the Riots, and I lobbied him and Sarah Schechter, his business partner, and eventually, you know, they came to me and said, yeah, let's do this. And I then that became the last two and a half years of my life. I really really responded so so much to the optimism of the book. I really loved the fact that it was this queer romance with a happy ending and with really idiosyncratic vibrant characters. I love that there was a latinae bisexual, Southern boy in the lead.

It was about February, February twenty twenty and my agent sent me the book, and I had just opened Inheritance on Broadway, and I was looking to do something new. I wanted to start looking for a film to make, and then this book came along, and I just knew about page fifty, I kind of knew that this was the thing I wanted to do, and it was. And then the rest of the book was essentially me already starting to figure out how I might be able to make a film work out of this book. And I found out that Greg Burlanti, who was one of the producers of The Inheritance, had acquired the Riots, and I lobbied him and Sarah Schechter, his business partner, and eventually, you know, they came to me and said, yeah, let's do this. And I then that became the last two and a half years of my life. I really really responded so so much to the optimism of the book. I really loved the fact that it was this queer romance with a happy ending and with really idiosyncratic vibrant characters. I love that there was a latinae bisexual, Southern boy in the lead.

You know, there's so much I could relate to in this book.

You know, there's so much I could relate to in this book.

And you know, when you contemplate spending two years working on something.

And you know, when you contemplate spending two years working on something.

You had better really like it, and you better really be excited about it, or you better really be excit.

You had better really like it, and you better really be excited about it, or you better really be excit.

I did about the paycheck, I guess, But for me, I really needed my first film to be something that I was passionate about, that I was going to sacrifice sleep for.

I did about the paycheck, I guess, But for me, I really needed my first film to be something that I was passionate about, that I was going to sacrifice sleep for.

And this was it for sure.

And this was it for sure.

So you said you were reading it and then fifty pages in you knew you had to make this a movie. What was that defining moment for you?

So you said you were reading it and then fifty pages in you knew you had to make this a movie. What was that defining moment for you?

I probably the fans of the book will tell me how wrong I am at this, So it's probably not at page fifty.

I probably the fans of the book will tell me how wrong I am at this, So it's probably not at page fifty.

But their first kiss.

But their first kiss.

I think the way the gway Casey described the first kiss was so cinematic.

I think the way the gway Casey described the first kiss was so cinematic.

I could see the movie. The movie was just unschooling.

I could see the movie. The movie was just unschooling.

In my head as I was reading it, And I love that it was this you know, a kid, a New Year's even snowy white house grounds.

In my head as I was reading it, And I love that it was this you know, a kid, a New Year's even snowy white house grounds.

I thought there was something.

I thought there was something.

Just inherently cinematic about about so much of the book, and I really kind of fell for the swoony, romantic quality of Casey's writing.

Just inherently cinematic about about so much of the book, and I really kind of fell for the swoony, romantic quality of Casey's writing.

Yeah, and the two leads bring this story to life brilliantly. I know you spent five or six months auditioning hundreds of different actors. You found Taylor, you found Nicholas. Why were they the right guys to play these roles?

Yeah, and the two leads bring this story to life brilliantly. I know you spent five or six months auditioning hundreds of different actors. You found Taylor, you found Nicholas. Why were they the right guys to play these roles?

It's funny, after having made the film with them, it's almost becomes really difficult to explain why they're the most the perfect guys in the roles because they are just simply now the roles. You forget what the casting process was like.

It's funny, after having made the film with them, it's almost becomes really difficult to explain why they're the most the perfect guys in the roles because they are just simply now the roles. You forget what the casting process was like.

And I've had to really go back and actually watched some of their auditions recently, and I remember watching Nick audition and working with Nick. He really convinced me that what Henry needed was a caretaker, and what Nick was able to do as the actor playing the role was less inhabit him than care for him.

And I've had to really go back and actually watched some of their auditions recently, and I remember watching Nick audition and working with Nick. He really convinced me that what Henry needed was a caretaker, and what Nick was able to do as the actor playing the role was less inhabit him than care for him.

He really really protected Henry. He really felt very protective of Henry.

He really really protected Henry. He really felt very protective of Henry.

I think as an actor saw his job as being someone who had to just sort of create a roll around Henry and keep bad things from happening to him. And there was such an enormous well of compassion for.

I think as an actor saw his job as being someone who had to just sort of create a roll around Henry and keep bad things from happening to him. And there was such an enormous well of compassion for.

Henry, and I knew that with Nick, I was leaving.

Henry, and I knew that with Nick, I was leaving.

This character in very good hands, and I could I could I didn't need to worry about Henry, and I could worry.

This character in very good hands, and I could I could I didn't need to worry about Henry, and I could worry.

I could focus on of the things.

I could focus on of the things.

And with Taylor, Taylor has this ability to transform himself, both his body and his energy into something else.

And with Taylor, Taylor has this ability to transform himself, both his body and his energy into something else.

He's a real.

He's a real.

Chameleon and he's a shape shifter.

Chameleon and he's a shape shifter.

And when I started reading him for this role, I could see Alex just sort of springing to life. And and so there's it's funny. There's this very complimentary energy that they have as actors, at least on this film, that Nick was very sort of internal and Taylor was very external. There was some sort of inward energy coming toward Nick and there was some outward energy coming from Taylor, and so that independently of each other, they were already without having met, we're creating these very complimentary performances, just even in the auditions.

And when I started reading him for this role, I could see Alex just sort of springing to life. And and so there's it's funny. There's this very complimentary energy that they have as actors, at least on this film, that Nick was very sort of internal and Taylor was very external. There was some sort of inward energy coming toward Nick and there was some outward energy coming from Taylor, and so that independently of each other, they were already without having met, we're creating these very complimentary performances, just even in the auditions.

And then I put them in on a zoom.

And then I put them in on a zoom.

Together to do a chemistry read and just sort of like praying and hoping that oh my God, you know, please, please please.

Together to do a chemistry read and just sort of like praying and hoping that oh my God, you know, please, please please.

Just if it's not true, give me enough that I can fake it, you know, and they didn't need I didn't need to fake anything and neither today.

Just if it's not true, give me enough that I can fake it, you know, and they didn't need I didn't need to fake anything and neither today.

It was just there from the beginning. It was it was I mean, it's gonna sound stupid to say it, but it just sounded like fate. It just was so perfect. They were the characters, They became the characters more and more throughout the audition process, and then when we got into this chemistry read they just clicked instantly. So the one hand, it was incredibly thorough this process, both on my part and theirs, I would say, and then it just clicked and became incredibly easy and simple and straightforward.

It was just there from the beginning. It was it was I mean, it's gonna sound stupid to say it, but it just sounded like fate. It just was so perfect. They were the characters, They became the characters more and more throughout the audition process, and then when we got into this chemistry read they just clicked instantly. So the one hand, it was incredibly thorough this process, both on my part and theirs, I would say, and then it just clicked and became incredibly easy and simple and straightforward.

Wow wow, Yeah, their chemistry is incredible in the film. And I know you guys spent about two weeks rehearsing and prepping prior to shooting, which I know isn't always common, and I think that's really cool you took the time to do that. Was there anything that happened in those rehearsals that maybe influenced to change then, you know, from something you originally thought that it was going to be a certain way.

Wow wow, Yeah, their chemistry is incredible in the film. And I know you guys spent about two weeks rehearsing and prepping prior to shooting, which I know isn't always common, and I think that's really cool you took the time to do that. Was there anything that happened in those rehearsals that maybe influenced to change then, you know, from something you originally thought that it was going to be a certain way.

Yeah, well, I you know, on a film like this with these two leads, I knew that there was going to be a point in which I needed to be the boss or sometimes just sort of sort of have a firm hand on things. And I knew that these two weeks were really invaluable for us, both in terms for the two of them to really get to know each other and to really feel comfortable with one another, but then also for me to give them an opportunity to challenge anything that was in the script, anything that was part of the plan for the shooting of the film. I needed to give them a lot of agency, because I needed then to take it away from them once we started building it anyway, and this was an opportunity for us to sort of like it was almost like the whole thing was like an open source code. And for two weeks, the three of us really worked together to devise what this thing was going to be. We tried different avenues, we tried different ways of doing it. We blocked scenes, we ran scenes. There are a few scenes in the movie that are as filmed and as edited, are exactly how we rehearsed them in terms of the blocking, in terms of what this thing is about.

Yeah, well, I you know, on a film like this with these two leads, I knew that there was going to be a point in which I needed to be the boss or sometimes just sort of sort of have a firm hand on things. And I knew that these two weeks were really invaluable for us, both in terms for the two of them to really get to know each other and to really feel comfortable with one another, but then also for me to give them an opportunity to challenge anything that was in the script, anything that was part of the plan for the shooting of the film. I needed to give them a lot of agency, because I needed then to take it away from them once we started building it anyway, and this was an opportunity for us to sort of like it was almost like the whole thing was like an open source code. And for two weeks, the three of us really worked together to devise what this thing was going to be. We tried different avenues, we tried different ways of doing it. We blocked scenes, we ran scenes. There are a few scenes in the movie that are as filmed and as edited, are exactly how we rehearsed them in terms of the blocking, in terms of what this thing is about.

This this lovely, tiny.

This this lovely, tiny.

Little moment in the scene where in Alex's bedroom, which is one of my favorite scenes in the movie for them, and it's in Alex's bedroom after they hook up for the first time.

Little moment in the scene where in Alex's bedroom, which is one of my favorite scenes in the movie for them, and it's in Alex's bedroom after they hook up for the first time.

In the blocking in in the movie that you see is precisely what we did.

In the blocking in in the movie that you see is precisely what we did.

It was the very last day of rehearsals and this little sort of moment where they talk over each other near the end of it and it's kind of suddenly gets awkward again. That just happened one day in rehearsal, and I remember clocking that and on set I actually was. I had a video of the rehearsal and they did it. I showed it to them before we shot the scene. I'm like, do you remember this from nine weeks ago?

It was the very last day of rehearsals and this little sort of moment where they talk over each other near the end of it and it's kind of suddenly gets awkward again. That just happened one day in rehearsal, and I remember clocking that and on set I actually was. I had a video of the rehearsal and they did it. I showed it to them before we shot the scene. I'm like, do you remember this from nine weeks ago?

And so I come from theater.

And so I come from theater.

I you know, rehearsals are invaluable for creating, for inventing. There's some there's there are times, and especially on a film like this, where your ability to invent on set is very limited, And I needed to get their imaginations firing, and I needed that to allow my imagination to fire too.

I you know, rehearsals are invaluable for creating, for inventing. There's some there's there are times, and especially on a film like this, where your ability to invent on set is very limited, And I needed to get their imaginations firing, and I needed that to allow my imagination to fire too.

So I think it's what made that.

So I think it's what made that.

Those two weeks are absolutely what made what is special on screen between them possible.

Those two weeks are absolutely what made what is special on screen between them possible.

And what I love about you is I could feel it through the screen. You have so much pride in the work that they did. Your beaming when you talk about it, which I think, I.

And what I love about you is I could feel it through the screen. You have so much pride in the work that they did. Your beaming when you talk about it, which I think, I.

Feel like a proud parent, I really do, because I mean, the thing is is that this movie is only as good. This movie would only ever been as good as my ability to get natural, easy performances out of them. And one of the things that I'm really really proud of in this film across the board is how relaxed everybody is. And it starts with Taylor and Nick. There is such an ease about them that really just permeates every scene of the film. And Yeah, I'm incredibly proud, I think, you know, one of the one of the great pleasures and challenges of this process was editing the film because it was a wealth of options, you know, and and there's a whole other version of this movie which I could assemble out of alternate takes, and and it would be it would be a different movie, you know.

Feel like a proud parent, I really do, because I mean, the thing is is that this movie is only as good. This movie would only ever been as good as my ability to get natural, easy performances out of them. And one of the things that I'm really really proud of in this film across the board is how relaxed everybody is. And it starts with Taylor and Nick. There is such an ease about them that really just permeates every scene of the film. And Yeah, I'm incredibly proud, I think, you know, one of the one of the great pleasures and challenges of this process was editing the film because it was a wealth of options, you know, and and there's a whole other version of this movie which I could assemble out of alternate takes, and and it would be it would be a different movie, you know.

Absolutely very proud of those two.

Absolutely very proud of those two.

Yeah, I think a lot of people want to see those deleted scenes.

Yeah, I think a lot of people want to see those deleted scenes.

Let's get the non deleted scenes out into the world first, and then we'll see what happens.

Let's get the non deleted scenes out into the world first, and then we'll see what happens.

Fair enough, fair enough. There was a moment in the film for me that that blew me away between between Nick and Taylor. For you, I'm sure this is such a tough question. There were many, But is there one moment that you're just so blown away by?

Fair enough, fair enough. There was a moment in the film for me that that blew me away between between Nick and Taylor. For you, I'm sure this is such a tough question. There were many, But is there one moment that you're just so blown away by?

There are so many.

There are so many.

I did give the example of that scene in the bedroom, which is just for me in terms of their chemistry is so is so beautiful. I have to say that the confrontation scene in Henry's bedroom was I think it was something that we were all dreading at filming because we knew what it was going to cost all of us. And I knew that, I mean practically speaking the filmmaker, and as a filmmaker, I knew I had other things to do that day, so I also couldn't like indulge in too long a process on set for that scene. But I also knew I couldn't leave until I got what I needed. And we did it maybe two thirds of the way through the shoot, and it's longer than we expected it to and I actually there there's a couple of things that I didn't shoot that day because I just just cut them right out and we had to break for lunch and I was and we hadn't finished the scene and I was really really worried that we were going to come back from lunch and all I was just gonna have lost them, you know, and we would never recapture what was happening on set before lunch.

I did give the example of that scene in the bedroom, which is just for me in terms of their chemistry is so is so beautiful. I have to say that the confrontation scene in Henry's bedroom was I think it was something that we were all dreading at filming because we knew what it was going to cost all of us. And I knew that, I mean practically speaking the filmmaker, and as a filmmaker, I knew I had other things to do that day, so I also couldn't like indulge in too long a process on set for that scene. But I also knew I couldn't leave until I got what I needed. And we did it maybe two thirds of the way through the shoot, and it's longer than we expected it to and I actually there there's a couple of things that I didn't shoot that day because I just just cut them right out and we had to break for lunch and I was and we hadn't finished the scene and I was really really worried that we were going to come back from lunch and all I was just gonna have lost them, you know, and we would never recapture what was happening on set before lunch.

And and it was the move, It.

And and it was the move, It.

Was the pivotal part of the scene is the end when they're when the sort of when Alex Nix's ultimatum to Henry.

Was the pivotal part of the scene is the end when they're when the sort of when Alex Nix's ultimatum to Henry.

And we got back on set and we got we.

And we got back on set and we got we.

Started filming again, and instantly in the first take after lunch, Taylor started crying and Nick was facing away from him and he heard Taylor and Nick started crying, and and the back half of that scene is so beautiful because they're doing such great work. And I really had a difficult time cutting it because there was such beautiful, nuanced work from all from both of them. But what to me it was so remarkable about it is they had just had lunch, They just and they came right back into it and they were more dialed in and they were more in touch with each other than before, and it was truly it was.

Started filming again, and instantly in the first take after lunch, Taylor started crying and Nick was facing away from him and he heard Taylor and Nick started crying, and and the back half of that scene is so beautiful because they're doing such great work. And I really had a difficult time cutting it because there was such beautiful, nuanced work from all from both of them. But what to me it was so remarkable about it is they had just had lunch, They just and they came right back into it and they were more dialed in and they were more in touch with each other than before, and it was truly it was.

It was pretty remarkable. And I have to say that was the moment.

It was pretty remarkable. And I have to say that was the moment.

I knew that whatever happened with this movie these those two actors would be fine in their career.

I knew that whatever happened with this movie these those two actors would be fine in their career.

Yeah, yeah, that was the scene I was thinking of as well. It was It was pretty remarkable. I can't wait for people to see that one. Was there a scene or two from the book that you thought, okay, man, I better get this just right.

Yeah, yeah, that was the scene I was thinking of as well. It was It was pretty remarkable. I can't wait for people to see that one. Was there a scene or two from the book that you thought, okay, man, I better get this just right.

There was well, the case scene, of course, you know, I think that for many reasons. It's the opening of the film.

There was well, the case scene, of course, you know, I think that for many reasons. It's the opening of the film.

It really establishes the characters so much. But it's also just the most iconic moment in the book, one of the most iconic moments of the book, And so there were a million reasons why I knew I needed to get it right. And it was also the most technical thing I had filmed up to that point. It was I think we shot it in our second week, and you know, the first few days of filming were pretty gentle on me and ever buddy, and then we had.

It really establishes the characters so much. But it's also just the most iconic moment in the book, one of the most iconic moments of the book, And so there were a million reasons why I knew I needed to get it right. And it was also the most technical thing I had filmed up to that point. It was I think we shot it in our second week, and you know, the first few days of filming were pretty gentle on me and ever buddy, and then we had.

This two day shoot inside the ballroom with this cake, with these extras, with all of these other scene elements that were happening, and then on day two we had to drop this cake had get them all mucky, and it had to be funny and it had to be technically accurate. That was the one that I was really really uptied about because there was.

This two day shoot inside the ballroom with this cake, with these extras, with all of these other scene elements that were happening, and then on day two we had to drop this cake had get them all mucky, and it had to be funny and it had to be technically accurate. That was the one that I was really really uptied about because there was.

No margin for error and there were lots of opportunities for air. So, you know, that was that was the most technical filmmaking we did on it. And the funny thing is is that when it came to the actual shot of the cake going into their faces, because that whole cake was was was was not. It was foam, rubber and latex, and so for the most part, the cake is phony and it's just.

No margin for error and there were lots of opportunities for air. So, you know, that was that was the most technical filmmaking we did on it. And the funny thing is is that when it came to the actual shot of the cake going into their faces, because that whole cake was was was was not. It was foam, rubber and latex, and so for the most part, the cake is phony and it's just.

It's just, you know, it's it's it's a fake cake.

It's just, you know, it's it's it's a fake cake.

And so we could do a lot with it and drop it and it just bounced and then you could drop it again. But when it came to getting them dirty, we had a couple of duplicate costumes for them, and there was a plan to get them showered and hair and make up redone as fast as possible, but I just knew that I was going to lose too much time and I needed to just get it done in as few takes as possible. And it was me and my production designer off camera, and we were, you know, at the count three, we threw the cake and the icing into their faces and it was a bullseye.

And so we could do a lot with it and drop it and it just bounced and then you could drop it again. But when it came to getting them dirty, we had a couple of duplicate costumes for them, and there was a plan to get them showered and hair and make up redone as fast as possible, but I just knew that I was going to lose too much time and I needed to just get it done in as few takes as possible. And it was me and my production designer off camera, and we were, you know, at the count three, we threw the cake and the icing into their faces and it was a bullseye.

Wow, it was an absolute bullseye, and we watched it and we.

Wow, it was an absolute bullseye, and we watched it and we.

Just decided to keep moving on and we had it, so I lecked out.

Just decided to keep moving on and we had it, so I lecked out.

That was the luckiest break on this entire.

That was the luckiest break on this entire.

Film was getting the cake in their faces the first take, the first and only take.

Film was getting the cake in their faces the first take, the first and only take.

Yeah, that was it. And then the one that I was really excited to do was the VNA scene at the Victoria and Albert Museum. Scene at night in the museum.

Yeah, that was it. And then the one that I was really excited to do was the VNA scene at the Victoria and Albert Museum. Scene at night in the museum.

It just beautiful, was the scene.

It just beautiful, was the scene.

That's my favorite scene in the book.

That's my favorite scene in the book.

And when he clicked that music on, come on, come on, Yeah, yeah, that.

And when he clicked that music on, come on, come on, Yeah, yeah, that.

Was that was That was That was the one I was most looking forward to.

Was that was That was That was the one I was most looking forward to.

That was that was we were locked into the v N a overnight.

That was that was we were locked into the v N a overnight.

We we we had it all to ourselves.

We we we had it all to ourselves.

It was pretty magical, and it was just the two of them, you know, there were no there were no extras.

It was pretty magical, and it was just the two of them, you know, there were no there were no extras.

There was a very you know, the crew had you know, the crew.

There was a very you know, the crew had you know, the crew.

We were just all like a family at that point. And so it was a real night at the museum. And then you know, picking up music because I know in the book it's Elton John's your song, and which I knew and instinctively wasn't gonna work for us.

We were just all like a family at that point. And so it was a real night at the museum. And then you know, picking up music because I know in the book it's Elton John's your song, and which I knew and instinctively wasn't gonna work for us.

In the film.

In the film.

It just wasn't the right sound, uh, And so we auditioned a lot of different songs, and on set we used that one. We used the Perfect Genius and had my Perfect.

It just wasn't the right sound, uh, And so we auditioned a lot of different songs, and on set we used that one. We used the Perfect Genius and had my Perfect.

Genius was gonna do a new cover of an older.

Genius was gonna do a new cover of an older.

Song for us that we really were excited about. And then I cut together the assembly of the film and we watched the scene with Perfect Geniuses Can Help falling in Love, and we knew it was the right song and it was perfect. And so that was another lucky break because the song that we just decided to use on set was the song we ended up using the film.

Song for us that we really were excited about. And then I cut together the assembly of the film and we watched the scene with Perfect Geniuses Can Help falling in Love, and we knew it was the right song and it was perfect. And so that was another lucky break because the song that we just decided to use on set was the song we ended up using the film.

I think that song is gonna sore to number one.

I think that song is gonna sore to number one.

So it's a beautiful recording. It's an absolutely.

So it's a beautiful recording. It's an absolutely.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And I have to tell you when I put up a story on Monday night saying that I saw the movie and I screened it in and it was great, I had so many people message me, people I haven't even spoken to him forever, and I was shocked at how many of those people were straight. This story, this book has such a built in fandom from all areas and walks of life. I don't feel like you're the type of person that lets that pressure sneak in when you making your art, when you're making your project, when you made the movie. But how do you kind of not let that cloud your mind when you are creating this movie, knowing that there's so many people who are waiting and wanting and loving this.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And I have to tell you when I put up a story on Monday night saying that I saw the movie and I screened it in and it was great, I had so many people message me, people I haven't even spoken to him forever, and I was shocked at how many of those people were straight. This story, this book has such a built in fandom from all areas and walks of life. I don't feel like you're the type of person that lets that pressure sneak in when you making your art, when you're making your project, when you made the movie. But how do you kind of not let that cloud your mind when you are creating this movie, knowing that there's so many people who are waiting and wanting and loving this.

I learned I.

I learned I.

Think I learned in theater that worrying about what other people think is just really a pointless exercise. You really you only have, especially on a film, you only have one chance to get it right. You're only in that you're only on that set one day. You got to move on to the next scene. You're always just moving forward. And so you really on a film set, you are living in the present. There's no past, there's no future, and that is actually incredibly helpful.

Think I learned in theater that worrying about what other people think is just really a pointless exercise. You really you only have, especially on a film, you only have one chance to get it right. You're only in that you're only on that set one day. You got to move on to the next scene. You're always just moving forward. And so you really on a film set, you are living in the present. There's no past, there's no future, and that is actually incredibly helpful.

For focus, you know, and I need that. I think it's just sort of the typrote thing. If you look down, you're gonna fall.

For focus, you know, and I need that. I think it's just sort of the typrote thing. If you look down, you're gonna fall.

I didn't think about ultimately what anybody would think of the film.

I didn't think about ultimately what anybody would think of the film.

I just kept following my gut and following my instincts. I knew, I knew this story. I knew and look, it's my version of red, white, and moral blue. Right, It's it's not anybody else's.

I just kept following my gut and following my instincts. I knew, I knew this story. I knew and look, it's my version of red, white, and moral blue. Right, It's it's not anybody else's.

It's not case It's not even Casey's, and Casey will be the first two minute Casey's. Casey's book is Casey's book, and my movie is my movie. It's my movie based on Casey's book, and it is my reaction to Casey's book. And the things that I love about Casey's book are what I put into the movie. And I knew that I would own it regardless, so I might as well do it in exactly the way that my instinct tells me to do and not worry about what other people would it.

It's not case It's not even Casey's, and Casey will be the first two minute Casey's. Casey's book is Casey's book, and my movie is my movie. It's my movie based on Casey's book, and it is my reaction to Casey's book. And the things that I love about Casey's book are what I put into the movie. And I knew that I would own it regardless, so I might as well do it in exactly the way that my instinct tells me to do and not worry about what other people would it.

Man, that must be incredibly freeing. And I read a quote you gave in a different interview and you said, love it or hate it, it's the movie I set out to make. That doesn't always happen. I love that quote.

Man, that must be incredibly freeing. And I read a quote you gave in a different interview and you said, love it or hate it, it's the movie I set out to make. That doesn't always happen. I love that quote.

Yeah, it's true. I look.

Yeah, it's true. I look.

The one thing that is really true about this process is that I was surrounded by incredibly talented people across the board.

The one thing that is really true about this process is that I was surrounded by incredibly talented people across the board.

This cast is a dream cast.

This cast is a dream cast.

I worked with one of the legendary cinematographers in the business. I mean, Stephen Goldblatt was this cinematographer Angels in America, and in addition to the Cotton Club, which is a forgotten gem of Francis Coppola's.

I worked with one of the legendary cinematographers in the business. I mean, Stephen Goldblatt was this cinematographer Angels in America, and in addition to the Cotton Club, which is a forgotten gem of Francis Coppola's.

But I never ever felt.

But I never ever felt.

As if I had to do this on my own, and I never felt that I did not have my It was really remarkable that every single idea I have was executed perfectly. And you know, look, the things that we knew weren't going to work physically or within budget, we adjusted because that's just filmmaking. But it really the movie I dreamed of in my head when I started working on this film is largely up there on the screen.

As if I had to do this on my own, and I never felt that I did not have my It was really remarkable that every single idea I have was executed perfectly. And you know, look, the things that we knew weren't going to work physically or within budget, we adjusted because that's just filmmaking. But it really the movie I dreamed of in my head when I started working on this film is largely up there on the screen.

Well. And one thing I love that you chose to do, I imagine pretty strategically, is this movie doesn't shy away from being sexy. You have these intimate scenes and they're beautiful, and you actually feel like you're watching a couple having a loving moment. And sometimes I feel like in content that's for the queer community, you kind of get the water down version of that and you don't always get to see those moments of true, deep passionate love. Was that something important for you to show between the two gentlemen deeply deeply?

Well. And one thing I love that you chose to do, I imagine pretty strategically, is this movie doesn't shy away from being sexy. You have these intimate scenes and they're beautiful, and you actually feel like you're watching a couple having a loving moment. And sometimes I feel like in content that's for the queer community, you kind of get the water down version of that and you don't always get to see those moments of true, deep passionate love. Was that something important for you to show between the two gentlemen deeply deeply?

I think you know one or two things usually ends up being true, not always, And those other movies and those other scenes stand out as a result. But either it's a scene that is you can tell it's a straight filmmaker making the scene, or you know that it's a straight audience for whom the scene is being ultimately considered. And it's sort of like generally, I think in the past, a lot of it has, especially in studio movie, a lot of it is, you know, don't scare the straits, and there was none of that on this film.

I think you know one or two things usually ends up being true, not always, And those other movies and those other scenes stand out as a result. But either it's a scene that is you can tell it's a straight filmmaker making the scene, or you know that it's a straight audience for whom the scene is being ultimately considered. And it's sort of like generally, I think in the past, a lot of it has, especially in studio movie, a lot of it is, you know, don't scare the straits, and there was none of that on this film.

And I don't know if it was because I.

And I don't know if it was because I.

Don't know, I don't know why, but I did not get any resistance to my plans for this thing.

Don't know, I don't know why, but I did not get any resistance to my plans for this thing.

I also made it very clear at the beginning. I said, you know, if you hire me, this is going to be in the movie.

I also made it very clear at the beginning. I said, you know, if you hire me, this is going to be in the movie.

So if you don't want it to be in the movie, you should find somebody else to make this film. And I was very upfront about it because I didn't want to have any arguments later.

So if you don't want it to be in the movie, you should find somebody else to make this film. And I was very upfront about it because I didn't want to have any arguments later.

And what was really important.

And what was really important.

To me is is I really wanted to I really wanted to do two things which I'd never I hadn't seen much of in film. I wanted to show two men having sex in a way that is loving, that is connected, that is that is pleasurable, and that is is beautiful, and I also wanted to film a sex whose geography and whose physical execution of makes sense to people who know.

To me is is I really wanted to I really wanted to do two things which I'd never I hadn't seen much of in film. I wanted to show two men having sex in a way that is loving, that is connected, that is that is pleasurable, and that is is beautiful, and I also wanted to film a sex whose geography and whose physical execution of makes sense to people who know.

How to have gay sex. So I needed it.

How to have gay sex. So I needed it.

To both be incredibly accurate physically, and I also needed it to be incredibly to the point where we are in the story. I needed it to be focused on the characters. I needed it to be focused on their journey. And so we applied both seemingly oppositional desires.

To both be incredibly accurate physically, and I also needed it to be incredibly to the point where we are in the story. I needed it to be focused on the characters. I needed it to be focused on their journey. And so we applied both seemingly oppositional desires.

To the scene and it ended up being the scene that's in the film.

To the scene and it ended up being the scene that's in the film.

Yeah, well, they're beautiful scenes. I'm happy you suck to your instinct and your guts on that. I was surprised that the movie and I know you share the same sentiment. Got to rate it, are, I guess because of the sex scenes. But that surprised me.

Yeah, well, they're beautiful scenes. I'm happy you suck to your instinct and your guts on that. I was surprised that the movie and I know you share the same sentiment. Got to rate it, are, I guess because of the sex scenes. But that surprised me.

Yeah, I mean I say it surprised me. And then also it didn't surprise me.

Yeah, I mean I say it surprised me. And then also it didn't surprise me.

You know, it's sort of like, you know, I think in the perfect world that maybe sometimes still exists in my head, it surprised me.

You know, it's sort of like, you know, I think in the perfect world that maybe sometimes still exists in my head, it surprised me.

And then in the reality that I live in, it didn't. It's like not surprising at all. It's I think that it's just it's two things it's.

And then in the reality that I live in, it didn't. It's like not surprising at all. It's I think that it's just it's two things it's.

I just if it had been a man and a woman, if it hadn't been a gay couple, I really don't think that scene would have garnered the R rating, But let's even pretend that that that maybe it would have.

I just if it had been a man and a woman, if it hadn't been a gay couple, I really don't think that scene would have garnered the R rating, But let's even pretend that that that maybe it would have.

What is more depressing to.

What is more depressing to.

Me actually is the fact that it is sexuality that got us the R rating. And you you can name a dozen movies that are incredibly violent, far more violent movies than my film is sexual that RPG thirteen. So I think even if you set aside latent homophobia or over homophobia, you're still left with the problem that the NPAA favors violence over sexuality. They prefer American audiences see acts of violence than acts of love, and that's really fucked up. Yeah, and I think that it's it may be overdue for a reassessment of the use of the NPAA. I don't know what its function is anymore, and I think it might be a little outdated.

Me actually is the fact that it is sexuality that got us the R rating. And you you can name a dozen movies that are incredibly violent, far more violent movies than my film is sexual that RPG thirteen. So I think even if you set aside latent homophobia or over homophobia, you're still left with the problem that the NPAA favors violence over sexuality. They prefer American audiences see acts of violence than acts of love, and that's really fucked up. Yeah, and I think that it's it may be overdue for a reassessment of the use of the NPAA. I don't know what its function is anymore, and I think it might be a little outdated.

Yeah, yeah, well, which is all the more reason why a movie like this is important with the choices you made artistically, because it's going to show people that this is content people want to see, and they're going to line up to see it, and there's no problem with it. So, yeah, you know, you are.

Yeah, yeah, well, which is all the more reason why a movie like this is important with the choices you made artistically, because it's going to show people that this is content people want to see, and they're going to line up to see it, and there's no problem with it. So, yeah, you know, you are.

Living in the same country that we did when the NPAA was over right, right, I feel like the.

Living in the same country that we did when the NPAA was over right, right, I feel like the.

Standards are still being applied to the.

Standards are still being applied to the.

Probably I would imagine the nineteen sixties or early seventies is when the MPAA was probably founded. I don't know that off the top of my head, but you know, we're not living in that world anymore. And I don't see anything in this film that actually anybody who isn't at least thirteen, couldn't couldn't.

Probably I would imagine the nineteen sixties or early seventies is when the MPAA was probably founded. I don't know that off the top of my head, but you know, we're not living in that world anymore. And I don't see anything in this film that actually anybody who isn't at least thirteen, couldn't couldn't.

Watch, you know. Yeah, so but hey, that's me. What do I know?

Watch, you know. Yeah, so but hey, that's me. What do I know?

No, I agree. I think it's a film for everybody. And like I said, I'm glad you made the choices you made, Matthew. I imagine doing a movie like this is so gratifying on a million different levels and in a million different ways. But personally, what do you learn about yourself through making your very first movie like this?

No, I agree. I think it's a film for everybody. And like I said, I'm glad you made the choices you made, Matthew. I imagine doing a movie like this is so gratifying on a million different levels and in a million different ways. But personally, what do you learn about yourself through making your very first movie like this?

Well?

Well?

I learned that I could get by on a lot less sleep than I ever imagined.

I learned that I could get by on a lot less sleep than I ever imagined.

I look. I think that.

I look. I think that.

Hollywood has for the last several years been going through a reassessment of what is acceptable behavior for people with power, And there is no person in Hollywood at a certain point in any filmmaking process, more powerful on any given day than the director of a film. And my two mentors in this business were Stephen Daldry and Tom Fontana is one of the great TV showrunners. And they both operate in the world from a place of kindness, and they operate in this world from the place of really wanting to help people do their best work. And when you're on when you're working with Stephen or you're working with.

Hollywood has for the last several years been going through a reassessment of what is acceptable behavior for people with power, And there is no person in Hollywood at a certain point in any filmmaking process, more powerful on any given day than the director of a film. And my two mentors in this business were Stephen Daldry and Tom Fontana is one of the great TV showrunners. And they both operate in the world from a place of kindness, and they operate in this world from the place of really wanting to help people do their best work. And when you're on when you're working with Stephen or you're working with.

Tom, you're working, but you're always.

Tom, you're working, but you're always.

Valued, you're always asked how you're doing, and you're always having fun. And it was something that I I think I maybe unconsciously brought with me into the process of doing this. And there were days when I was frustrated. There are days when I got angry. There were days when something didn't work and it was somebody's fault and you could actually find someone.

Valued, you're always asked how you're doing, and you're always having fun. And it was something that I I think I maybe unconsciously brought with me into the process of doing this. And there were days when I was frustrated. There are days when I got angry. There were days when something didn't work and it was somebody's fault and you could actually find someone.

To blame for it.

To blame for it.

And my instincts always in the time of stress or to get angry. But my actions, I learned, were much more effective if I didn't.

And my instincts always in the time of stress or to get angry. But my actions, I learned, were much more effective if I didn't.

And it's so easy to be.

And it's so easy to be.

Awful, and it is so hard sometimes to be kind, And yet I discovered through exercising the lessons that I learned from Stephen and Tom on hopefully a daily basis that you really really do get the best work out of people. If you create a warm, loving, safe environment for them. You can push them harder to do scarier things. You can make something that is seemingly impossible possible. Weirdly, I also think it saves your time. So I learned about myself that my mentors were right, and that I also learned about myself that I have more of a capacity to be understanding of people than I ever imagined. And I know that sounds like I'm in some ways boasting or tuning my own horn or whatever.

Awful, and it is so hard sometimes to be kind, And yet I discovered through exercising the lessons that I learned from Stephen and Tom on hopefully a daily basis that you really really do get the best work out of people. If you create a warm, loving, safe environment for them. You can push them harder to do scarier things. You can make something that is seemingly impossible possible. Weirdly, I also think it saves your time. So I learned about myself that my mentors were right, and that I also learned about myself that I have more of a capacity to be understanding of people than I ever imagined. And I know that sounds like I'm in some ways boasting or tuning my own horn or whatever.

But I think if.

But I think if.

Anybody knows me, knows that I'm I'm pretty driven and I can be tough, and I can be tough on myself. But I hope also that people know that I that I. I hope I have a reputation for being loving and kind and caring and that battle within anybody between those two instincts. I sort of wage that internally on this movie and love love always wins.

Anybody knows me, knows that I'm I'm pretty driven and I can be tough, and I can be tough on myself. But I hope also that people know that I that I. I hope I have a reputation for being loving and kind and caring and that battle within anybody between those two instincts. I sort of wage that internally on this movie and love love always wins.

Man.

Man.

That's beautiful. I love that I do. What a great realization to have through through doing your work. That's so cool. And I think man, we all need to tap into more of the kindness thing in this world, in society. It's very important.

That's beautiful. I love that I do. What a great realization to have through through doing your work. That's so cool. And I think man, we all need to tap into more of the kindness thing in this world, in society. It's very important.

Yeah, it would be nice. It would be really nice.

Yeah, it would be nice. It would be really nice.

And it applies in all things, in all ways, and not just in this business. And it applies to our discourse and the way we treat other people on social media, the way we treat other people.

And it applies in all things, in all ways, and not just in this business. And it applies to our discourse and the way we treat other people on social media, the way we treat other people.

At the supermarket, right everywhere.

At the supermarket, right everywhere.

Yeah, right on with that, Matthew. The last question for you is off the title of the show, which is I've never said this before, So I would love to know something that you have never said before that you would like to share. It can be deep, it can be silly, it can be anything you want.

Yeah, right on with that, Matthew. The last question for you is off the title of the show, which is I've never said this before, So I would love to know something that you have never said before that you would like to share. It can be deep, it can be silly, it can be anything you want.

I've never said this before, but I used to want to be president of the United States, Do you really?

I've never said this before, but I used to want to be president of the United States, Do you really?

I really did.

I really did.

When I was about between the ages of about fifteen and seventeen, maybe eighteen, I just fell so passionately in love with politics, and I was a big We've read the New York Times at that age, and I watched CNN constantly, and I just wanted to be if not president then like proximal to the president, or maybe a senator or a congressman.

When I was about between the ages of about fifteen and seventeen, maybe eighteen, I just fell so passionately in love with politics, and I was a big We've read the New York Times at that age, and I watched CNN constantly, and I just wanted to be if not president then like proximal to the president, or maybe a senator or a congressman.

I just wanted to be in politics.

I just wanted to be in politics.

And then I discovered that I liked kissing guys. I at that time in my life and that time, in this kind of she's life, I knew, well, I could either I could either kiss guys or run for president.

And then I discovered that I liked kissing guys. I at that time in my life and that time, in this kind of she's life, I knew, well, I could either I could either kiss guys or run for president.

And and the boys won. What can I say?

And and the boys won. What can I say?

So it's funny because when I was thinking about that question, I was trying to figure out what's how to answer, and and I remember giving an interview about being on the Oval Office set, and I just I remember actually sitting behind the desk, you know, before work one day, and just thinking. I remembered in that moment how I had these dreams of like I wanted to go to Loss.

So it's funny because when I was thinking about that question, I was trying to figure out what's how to answer, and and I remember giving an interview about being on the Oval Office set, and I just I remember actually sitting behind the desk, you know, before work one day, and just thinking. I remembered in that moment how I had these dreams of like I wanted to go to Loss.

I planned it all.

I planned it all.

I was going to get into politics, and then you know, summer of ninety five, I just.

I was going to get into politics, and then you know, summer of ninety five, I just.

Well, I mean never say never, though, right, you know?

Well, I mean never say never, though, right, you know?

I mean sure, never say never.

I mean sure, never say never.

I'd rather maybe make donations to queer candidates and let other people.

I'd rather maybe make donations to queer candidates and let other people.

Do that themselves.

Do that themselves.

Fair enough, that's an awesome answer. So were you geeking extra hard at Uma Thurman as president?

Fair enough, that's an awesome answer. So were you geeking extra hard at Uma Thurman as president?

God? Are you kidding me?

God? Are you kidding me?

It was like I think Uma and I were both geeking together about it. Like people would never say this, but I saw her sit behind that desk and she's sort of like she had an idea or two about what she could do after this movie. I think that you what I absolutely can say, even on a sound stage in London, you walk into even an approximation of the Oval Office and you really do feel this immense sense of power, this immense sense of history. And I mean it was like pol I would and like fake, like really cheap carpeting, and yet still you can't.

It was like I think Uma and I were both geeking together about it. Like people would never say this, but I saw her sit behind that desk and she's sort of like she had an idea or two about what she could do after this movie. I think that you what I absolutely can say, even on a sound stage in London, you walk into even an approximation of the Oval Office and you really do feel this immense sense of power, this immense sense of history. And I mean it was like pol I would and like fake, like really cheap carpeting, and yet still you can't.

Help but be on, you know.

Help but be on, you know.

But I do think that Ellen has a much better sense of style than Joe Biden.

But I do think that Ellen has a much better sense of style than Joe Biden.

I would agree. Well, listen, if in a few years from now, ten years, twenty years, I see your name on the race, I'm going to pull this interview and say, see see you do you do?

I would agree. Well, listen, if in a few years from now, ten years, twenty years, I see your name on the race, I'm going to pull this interview and say, see see you do you do?

And then I'm going to come to you for big donations.

And then I'm going to come to you for big donations.

All right, Matthew, this was awesome. I like I said, I love the movie. You did a fantastic job. I think you're such a brilliant artist. As we close out the episode, tell people when, how where? How to watch this film All the things.

All right, Matthew, this was awesome. I like I said, I love the movie. You did a fantastic job. I think you're such a brilliant artist. As we close out the episode, tell people when, how where? How to watch this film All the things.

Red, White, and World Blue on Amazon Prime starting August eleventh, everywhere in the world.

Red, White, and World Blue on Amazon Prime starting August eleventh, everywhere in the world.

Amazing, Thank you, my friend. This was so much fun.

Amazing, Thank you, my friend. This was so much fun.

Yeah, I really appreciate talking to you. Thank you.

Yeah, I really appreciate talking to you. Thank you.

I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Diderio. This podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli, and executive producers are Andrew Piglisi and Katrina Norvel at iHeartRadio. I've Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Durant podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more rate review and subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.

I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Diderio. This podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli, and executive producers are Andrew Piglisi and Katrina Norvel at iHeartRadio. I've Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Durant podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more rate review and subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.