I find as well, Like, you know, it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even things like if what is closest to me in the bed when I wake up is the kindle and at the phone, I'm more likely to read. But if the phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So just a little hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind of make it easy to do the thing that I want to do.

I find as well, Like, you know, it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even things like if what is closest to me in the bed when I wake up is the kindle and at the phone, I'm more likely to read. But if the phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So just a little hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind of make it easy to do the thing that I want to do.

Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics used by leading innovators to get so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor amttha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. On today's show, I speak to Matt Mullenwig. I feel like Matt is kind of like Internet Royalty because he's a founding developer of WordPress, which is the open source software used by over thirty one percent of the web. He also founded Automatic, which now employs around seven hundred people, and Matt's also been named one of Business Weeks twenty five most influential people on the Web. Now, I've found out a lot of fascinating things about how Matt works during this chat, and something I particularly loved hearing about were some of the really simple changes he's made to create better habits, like how he only has certain types of apps on the home screen of his phone. So, without further ado over to Matt to find out how he works. Matt, welcome to the show.

Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics used by leading innovators to get so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor amttha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. On today's show, I speak to Matt Mullenwig. I feel like Matt is kind of like Internet Royalty because he's a founding developer of WordPress, which is the open source software used by over thirty one percent of the web. He also founded Automatic, which now employs around seven hundred people, and Matt's also been named one of Business Weeks twenty five most influential people on the Web. Now, I've found out a lot of fascinating things about how Matt works during this chat, and something I particularly loved hearing about were some of the really simple changes he's made to create better habits, like how he only has certain types of apps on the home screen of his phone. So, without further ado over to Matt to find out how he works. Matt, welcome to the show.

It's a pleasure to be here now.

It's a pleasure to be here now.

You're, of course the co founder of WordPress, and I read recently that you've just ticked over the thirty percent mark in that over thirty percent of the world's websites built on WordPress. Is that correct?

You're, of course the co founder of WordPress, and I read recently that you've just ticked over the thirty percent mark in that over thirty percent of the world's websites built on WordPress. Is that correct?

That is correct, and we're looking forward to get the other seventy percent.

That is correct, and we're looking forward to get the other seventy percent.

Amazing, amazing. Look, I'd love to start with what a typical morning looks like for you, and also whether there is such a thing, Given that I know you travel so much, it took.

Amazing, amazing. Look, I'd love to start with what a typical morning looks like for you, and also whether there is such a thing, Given that I know you travel so much, it took.

A question, So I would say that the thing that is my favorite morning routine is probably reading, actually, which is nice because I can do that really anywhere I am in the world if I can carve out. You know, some people wake up early to work out. I like to wake up a little bit earlier to get a better reading time in because I find that sets my brain up in the right space for everything I need to get done the rest of the day.

A question, So I would say that the thing that is my favorite morning routine is probably reading, actually, which is nice because I can do that really anywhere I am in the world if I can carve out. You know, some people wake up early to work out. I like to wake up a little bit earlier to get a better reading time in because I find that sets my brain up in the right space for everything I need to get done the rest of the day.

I love that I was actually reading on your blog. I was counting that you read I think about thirty books last year, and I was going to ask how you fit in that reading time. Are there there are other times in the day that you also block out for reading or is it? Does? It tend to be more of a morning ritual at the moment.

I love that I was actually reading on your blog. I was counting that you read I think about thirty books last year, and I was going to ask how you fit in that reading time. Are there there are other times in the day that you also block out for reading or is it? Does? It tend to be more of a morning ritual at the moment.

Often when I travel is really good for that. So I'm actually reading a lot more this year than last year. I'll probably end up with forty five or fifty books this year, and it's you know, travel time, it's downtime. I've started experimenting a bit with Audible has a sync feature with the Kindle, so I can be reading and then switch to audio and it's exactly where I left off, and then when I switched back to reading, it's exactly where the audio stopped. So you can kind of go between audio books and written books without without really losing any words or anything.

Often when I travel is really good for that. So I'm actually reading a lot more this year than last year. I'll probably end up with forty five or fifty books this year, and it's you know, travel time, it's downtime. I've started experimenting a bit with Audible has a sync feature with the Kindle, so I can be reading and then switch to audio and it's exactly where I left off, and then when I switched back to reading, it's exactly where the audio stopped. So you can kind of go between audio books and written books without without really losing any words or anything.

That's really cool. And when do you find like, what's the scenario where you'd use the written book in the kindle versus the audio, like what a sort of typical scenarios for both.

That's really cool. And when do you find like, what's the scenario where you'd use the written book in the kindle versus the audio, like what a sort of typical scenarios for both.

Written is definitely my first choice, so that could be anytime I can sit waiting. I generally always have my kindle on my backpack, so if I'm on sometimes a train if it's a longer train ride or subway ride, and the audiobooks really great for those in between times, so walking you know, when you're going to and from the gates or boarding, or if I'm driving, which is not too common if I'm traveling, but if I'm in Houston, Texas, which is my home, I drive a lot, so those are perfect times for for more audio content.

Written is definitely my first choice, so that could be anytime I can sit waiting. I generally always have my kindle on my backpack, so if I'm on sometimes a train if it's a longer train ride or subway ride, and the audiobooks really great for those in between times, so walking you know, when you're going to and from the gates or boarding, or if I'm driving, which is not too common if I'm traveling, but if I'm in Houston, Texas, which is my home, I drive a lot, so those are perfect times for for more audio content.

Yeah, And when you're when you're reading on the kindle, do you do you speed read? Do you have techniques to finish books faster or just like reading like the rest of us.

Yeah, And when you're when you're reading on the kindle, do you do you speed read? Do you have techniques to finish books faster or just like reading like the rest of us.

When I listen, I'm generally listening at one and a half to two x speed, so but when I'm reading, I feel like I read very normally. I've tried faster reading in the past, and I often lose things, and a lot of my reading these days is for pleasure. So it's you know, novels and other things that are don't really lend themselves well the speed read. In fact, sometimes you want to stretch it out because the wards are just so beautiful you want to savor them.

When I listen, I'm generally listening at one and a half to two x speed, so but when I'm reading, I feel like I read very normally. I've tried faster reading in the past, and I often lose things, and a lot of my reading these days is for pleasure. So it's you know, novels and other things that are don't really lend themselves well the speed read. In fact, sometimes you want to stretch it out because the wards are just so beautiful you want to savor them.

M Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I think I read somewhere that you've often got several books on the go at the same time. Is that still true?

M Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I think I read somewhere that you've often got several books on the go at the same time. Is that still true?

Yeah? I find that.

Yeah? I find that.

You know, sometimes I'll just kind of stuck in a book, and so while switching to something else, it can provide just a little bit of variety. I'll usually also have like a nonfiction and a fiction going at the same time, and now, just depending on my mood or what kind of modemen, different books on themselves. So like some books are very like short stories, like you know that there's going to be like a good stopping point, and other novels like I don't want to start unless I have a few hours blocked out because I know I'm going to get completely lost in it.

You know, sometimes I'll just kind of stuck in a book, and so while switching to something else, it can provide just a little bit of variety. I'll usually also have like a nonfiction and a fiction going at the same time, and now, just depending on my mood or what kind of modemen, different books on themselves. So like some books are very like short stories, like you know that there's going to be like a good stopping point, and other novels like I don't want to start unless I have a few hours blocked out because I know I'm going to get completely lost in it.

And getting back to the mornings. Like, how how long would you typically spend reading, Like doing uninterrupted reading.

And getting back to the mornings. Like, how how long would you typically spend reading, Like doing uninterrupted reading.

I'll try to get at least a chapter, which is you know, again, it depends so much on the format of the book, but call it fifteen to twenty minutes.

I'll try to get at least a chapter, which is you know, again, it depends so much on the format of the book, but call it fifteen to twenty minutes.

Fantastic, Love it, Love it. And I remember hearing that you were sort of, I guess, experimenting with meditation. I believe you're an investor in calm. I'm not sure if that's still the case. But where's your meditation routine or habit at at the moment?

Fantastic, Love it, Love it. And I remember hearing that you were sort of, I guess, experimenting with meditation. I believe you're an investor in calm. I'm not sure if that's still the case. But where's your meditation routine or habit at at the moment?

You know, I like to get that in in the mornings, but you know, sometimes I just can't. So otherwise I'll sneak it in throughout the rest of the day as long as there's not nighttime or I haven't had a drink beforehand. I find it can be very effective in other parts of the day. Yeah, if it starts to get later, I just doze a little. I guess it's good. I get into a very relaxed place very quickly.

You know, I like to get that in in the mornings, but you know, sometimes I just can't. So otherwise I'll sneak it in throughout the rest of the day as long as there's not nighttime or I haven't had a drink beforehand. I find it can be very effective in other parts of the day. Yeah, if it starts to get later, I just doze a little. I guess it's good. I get into a very relaxed place very quickly.

Yes, don't dozing. It's very relaxing. Excellent. I wanted to ask about, like how you bought off distractions, because you obviously work with technology for a living, but it can also be such a source of distraction, and I'm wondering, like when you're trying to get deep, focused work done. What strategies do you use for tuning out? I guess the rest of the world and particularly digital distractions.

Yes, don't dozing. It's very relaxing. Excellent. I wanted to ask about, like how you bought off distractions, because you obviously work with technology for a living, but it can also be such a source of distraction, and I'm wondering, like when you're trying to get deep, focused work done. What strategies do you use for tuning out? I guess the rest of the world and particularly digital distractions.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

It's funny because I have friends that are like, oh, they're so productive, how do you be so productive? And I feel like the most unproductive person. So my approach is generally like like a Ulysses, where I tie myself to the mast, you know, plug my ears so I can't hear the sirens. And yeah, I find that I'm way better at planning ahead than actually resisting temptation. So if I can just close out the apps, or it's not that I'm getting lots of notifications and not looking at them. Is that I'm just hiding the notifications for myself so that my brain doesn't even have to use the willpower to not engage with them.

It's funny because I have friends that are like, oh, they're so productive, how do you be so productive? And I feel like the most unproductive person. So my approach is generally like like a Ulysses, where I tie myself to the mast, you know, plug my ears so I can't hear the sirens. And yeah, I find that I'm way better at planning ahead than actually resisting temptation. So if I can just close out the apps, or it's not that I'm getting lots of notifications and not looking at them. Is that I'm just hiding the notifications for myself so that my brain doesn't even have to use the willpower to not engage with them.

And I mean, do you have notifications constantly turned off or do you kind of switch them on when you are in I guess more of a responsive mind.

And I mean, do you have notifications constantly turned off or do you kind of switch them on when you are in I guess more of a responsive mind.

I have notifications, but they generally don't buzz me, so the phone doesn't have any visible or you know, I guess taptic feedback whenever something comes in And then on the computer, I'll just generally close apps out, you know, if it's not relevant, including slacks. Sometimes that's maybe my biggest distraction because I kind of keep it on when I'm working or having conversations. But of course then anything can come in I find as well. Like you know, it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even things like if what is closest to me in the bed when I wake up is the kindle and not the phone, I'm more likely to read.

I have notifications, but they generally don't buzz me, so the phone doesn't have any visible or you know, I guess taptic feedback whenever something comes in And then on the computer, I'll just generally close apps out, you know, if it's not relevant, including slacks. Sometimes that's maybe my biggest distraction because I kind of keep it on when I'm working or having conversations. But of course then anything can come in I find as well. Like you know, it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even things like if what is closest to me in the bed when I wake up is the kindle and not the phone, I'm more likely to read.

But if the.

But if the.

Phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So just a little hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind of make it easy to do the thing that I want to do.

Phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So just a little hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind of make it easy to do the thing that I want to do.

I like that. What other aspects of your life of your life have you made those simple changes that have led to better habits.

I like that. What other aspects of your life of your life have you made those simple changes that have led to better habits.

Oh, if I have sweets or or things like that in the house, I don't have them visible, and they're generally like in a drawer or kind of buried away a little bit. So I can get them if I'm entertaining or having a party or really really want it. But it's not just something that's like staring at me all day saying eat me, eat me. That's you know, kind of a common thread that your phone's not buzzing saying look at me, look at me. The tasty food is not saying eat me, eat me. Just kind of out of sight, out of mind. It's not one hundred percent true, but is very helpful.

Oh, if I have sweets or or things like that in the house, I don't have them visible, and they're generally like in a drawer or kind of buried away a little bit. So I can get them if I'm entertaining or having a party or really really want it. But it's not just something that's like staring at me all day saying eat me, eat me. That's you know, kind of a common thread that your phone's not buzzing saying look at me, look at me. The tasty food is not saying eat me, eat me. Just kind of out of sight, out of mind. It's not one hundred percent true, but is very helpful.

Definitely, definitely. And what else do you do to focus? So you're closing down apps that you're not using and the notifications is switched off, Like, is there anything else that you found to be effective to stay focused?

Definitely, definitely. And what else do you do to focus? So you're closing down apps that you're not using and the notifications is switched off, Like, is there anything else that you found to be effective to stay focused?

Going offline? It's really great. You know.

Going offline? It's really great. You know.

I do this unintentionally sometimes on airplanes, but then occasionally at home I'll actually just turn off the network, the Wi Fi or the Ethernet and like literally unplugging it and then just forcing myself to look at all the things that are there in front of me, so start closing down more tabs than I open, or looking at those files that have been on my desktop for several months and saying, okay, what's going to be the way to do that? Kind of carving out that time, even if it's unintentional, just taking really savoring whatever is available to at the moment, I find very helpful. M.

I do this unintentionally sometimes on airplanes, but then occasionally at home I'll actually just turn off the network, the Wi Fi or the Ethernet and like literally unplugging it and then just forcing myself to look at all the things that are there in front of me, so start closing down more tabs than I open, or looking at those files that have been on my desktop for several months and saying, okay, what's going to be the way to do that? Kind of carving out that time, even if it's unintentional, just taking really savoring whatever is available to at the moment, I find very helpful. M.

And do you still have a playlist to help kind of get into flow that you listen to?

And do you still have a playlist to help kind of get into flow that you listen to?

So I have a few, kind of I guess at this point they're like deep house focused playlists that are just standard ones in title and Spotify that'll go too because there's no words or very few words.

So I have a few, kind of I guess at this point they're like deep house focused playlists that are just standard ones in title and Spotify that'll go too because there's no words or very few words.

They have kind of a nice beat behind it.

They have kind of a nice beat behind it.

But if I really need to get in the zone, my general thing is just picking a single song and having that on repeat. And that can be really anything. So it can be pip hop, it can be jazz, it can be really whatever, but just having that on repeat for a while, and it just has to be a song I like and then something often that I really like, and so it's pleasurable to have it there, but your mind kind of backgrounds it after the first or second listen. So I've just found that to be a really effective technique.

But if I really need to get in the zone, my general thing is just picking a single song and having that on repeat. And that can be really anything. So it can be pip hop, it can be jazz, it can be really whatever, but just having that on repeat for a while, and it just has to be a song I like and then something often that I really like, and so it's pleasurable to have it there, but your mind kind of backgrounds it after the first or second listen. So I've just found that to be a really effective technique.

And do you have any songs that you're going to a lot at the moment? M.

And do you have any songs that you're going to a lot at the moment? M.

You know, a recent one is this new Drake's Son nice for what?

You know, a recent one is this new Drake's Son nice for what?

Ah? Yeah, it's a it's just so fun and has some kind of natural breaks in it where like the kind of style goes between things and it just has that kind of great four flowing beat in the way they do the Lauren Hills sample and just lovely.

Ah? Yeah, it's a it's just so fun and has some kind of natural breaks in it where like the kind of style goes between things and it just has that kind of great four flowing beat in the way they do the Lauren Hills sample and just lovely.

I want to move on to looking at how you decide or how you kind of decide on your priorities. Could would I would imagine like in what you do and with your profile, you're probably getting approached with different opportunities left right and center, and I'm curious as to how you decide what do you say yes to and what do you say no to?

I want to move on to looking at how you decide or how you kind of decide on your priorities. Could would I would imagine like in what you do and with your profile, you're probably getting approached with different opportunities left right and center, and I'm curious as to how you decide what do you say yes to and what do you say no to?

You know, it gets easier actually because the things that I am quite keen to say yes on are growing over time. You know, the company is growing when now over seven hundred and fifty people. You know, your group of family and friends, people who you love very much. You really want to be there for them, and you appreciate that time more as you get older, So that kind of naturally crowds out a lot of other things. And in terms of the other yes is probably my biggest weakness is saying yes to someplace that I want to go. So it's an events or I know some people who I want to see will be there, or it's a place that I want to go because I haven't been before, and then as it approaches sometimes I'm like, Ah, why did I sign up for this? That's probably my biggest weakness. We've ran into each other at an event, didn't we?

You know, it gets easier actually because the things that I am quite keen to say yes on are growing over time. You know, the company is growing when now over seven hundred and fifty people. You know, your group of family and friends, people who you love very much. You really want to be there for them, and you appreciate that time more as you get older, So that kind of naturally crowds out a lot of other things. And in terms of the other yes is probably my biggest weakness is saying yes to someplace that I want to go. So it's an events or I know some people who I want to see will be there, or it's a place that I want to go because I haven't been before, and then as it approaches sometimes I'm like, Ah, why did I sign up for this? That's probably my biggest weakness. We've ran into each other at an event, didn't we?

Oh?

Oh?

We did it Ted that's riding Vancouver.

We did it Ted that's riding Vancouver.

That's a good example of one that ahead of time and they very smartly sell you. The ticket's like a year ahead of time. This year, I actually didn't want to go, but I had purchased a ticket almost a full year before, and it's also quite pricey, so I felt very obligated to go. So this year I've been trying to avoid that by actually not purchasing a ticket and probably will not attend next year, not because it wasn't wonderful and I got to meet awesome people like yourself, but just because it was a lot of time out of it. So you know, what I try to avoid is whatever I'm doing, just try to be fully there and really, what's a good word for it. I try to get the most out of whatever you're doing. I do it with vim and vigor. So if I'm at the conference, or if I'm going to go to a conference, like I don't check my email during that, Like I really try to be present and like get the most out of that conference. And if doing so, I find myself very bored or disengaged, maybe that's a good reason to not go versus agreeing to things and then you know, being on calls or emails or otherwise distracted the whole time because that I'd rather do be honest at home.

That's a good example of one that ahead of time and they very smartly sell you. The ticket's like a year ahead of time. This year, I actually didn't want to go, but I had purchased a ticket almost a full year before, and it's also quite pricey, so I felt very obligated to go. So this year I've been trying to avoid that by actually not purchasing a ticket and probably will not attend next year, not because it wasn't wonderful and I got to meet awesome people like yourself, but just because it was a lot of time out of it. So you know, what I try to avoid is whatever I'm doing, just try to be fully there and really, what's a good word for it. I try to get the most out of whatever you're doing. I do it with vim and vigor. So if I'm at the conference, or if I'm going to go to a conference, like I don't check my email during that, Like I really try to be present and like get the most out of that conference. And if doing so, I find myself very bored or disengaged, maybe that's a good reason to not go versus agreeing to things and then you know, being on calls or emails or otherwise distracted the whole time because that I'd rather do be honest at home.

Would you ever just cut your losses at one of these events that you've said yes to because you thought it would be a good idea in the lead up, and then you get there and you're finding that there's no value. Would you ever just cut your losses and go early? Or once you're there, you're committed.

Would you ever just cut your losses at one of these events that you've said yes to because you thought it would be a good idea in the lead up, and then you get there and you're finding that there's no value. Would you ever just cut your losses and go early? Or once you're there, you're committed.

Now that I'm terrible at So I'll finish bad movies, I'll finish bad books.

Now that I'm terrible at So I'll finish bad movies, I'll finish bad books.

I try to make the best of it. But yeah, I'm not good at.

I try to make the best of it. But yeah, I'm not good at.

Leaving it's interesting.

Leaving it's interesting.

So that's why I have to be careful what I start. Like I would say TV series are a good example of this, Like, like I know that starting a TV series is like a big commitment because you're signing up for tens of hours of things that like are kind of tugging at the back of your brain, being like, what happened to so and so. So I'm very very very discerning. I'm starting to I'll watch. That's why I prefer even shorter things on Netflix, like you know, sure their documentaries which tend to be like an hour and a half, or or comedy specials which are usually an hour. That's actually amazing. When just came out of Australia, you might have heard of brag Hannah Gadsby called the.

So that's why I have to be careful what I start. Like I would say TV series are a good example of this, Like, like I know that starting a TV series is like a big commitment because you're signing up for tens of hours of things that like are kind of tugging at the back of your brain, being like, what happened to so and so. So I'm very very very discerning. I'm starting to I'll watch. That's why I prefer even shorter things on Netflix, like you know, sure their documentaries which tend to be like an hour and a half, or or comedy specials which are usually an hour. That's actually amazing. When just came out of Australia, you might have heard of brag Hannah Gadsby called the.

Net Oh it's brilliant. I saw that live actually the Comedy Festival a couple of years ago. Yeah, wow, wow.

Net Oh it's brilliant. I saw that live actually the Comedy Festival a couple of years ago. Yeah, wow, wow.

I can't imagine.

I can't imagine.

It's interesting what you say about how you like, once you start, it's it's hard to stop. How how do you apply that to work? Because I imagine so much of what you do for automatic and WordPress is starting something and you know, kind of being in that experimentation mode, but then inevitably some experiments fail. So so how do I guess do you do? I imagine you must be much better at it with work in terms of starting something and then abandoning it versus TV series.

It's interesting what you say about how you like, once you start, it's it's hard to stop. How how do you apply that to work? Because I imagine so much of what you do for automatic and WordPress is starting something and you know, kind of being in that experimentation mode, but then inevitably some experiments fail. So so how do I guess do you do? I imagine you must be much better at it with work in terms of starting something and then abandoning it versus TV series.

Hmmm, I'll say it's actually a weakness at automatic as well. Probably many of my colleagues would agree with you. It's something that I have an eye on now is that the good news is for projects, especially software, it's typically measured in weeks or months, not just like an hour or two.

Hmmm, I'll say it's actually a weakness at automatic as well. Probably many of my colleagues would agree with you. It's something that I have an eye on now is that the good news is for projects, especially software, it's typically measured in weeks or months, not just like an hour or two.

Or there's something repetitive.

Or there's something repetitive.

So one thing that I've actually been working a lot this year is allowing myself and other people to say, you know, opt out of a meeting for example, not just go into a meeting because it's it's what we do every week or every other week or every month, but saying hey, is you know, do you feel like you got a lot out of this, and if so, please come back. If not, it's okay to opt out. And just making meetings optional is interesting. And you know, if you do a good job about having an agenda beforehand, people can read it and choose to opt in, or of course you can reach out to someone and say, hey, I think it's important for you to be part of this conversation. But by making it a bit more optional, it's a good balance between people not feeling excluded but also not you know, wasting time for yourself, for others, and then for projects just trying to be more explicit at the start with how long we expected to take. You know, I can think of an example, you know, we're in the middle of one right now, and one that just kind of wrapped up, or something that started and we thought it was kind of a four or five month thing, and actually the worst case ended up going closer to eighteen months. And so at many points along that path we should have had I think this is called the sun cost fallacy, Like we should have said, oh, if we had known it would have taken eighteen months at the beginning, we wouldn't have done it. So we should stop it now, even though that's painful and people want to finish it or it always seems right around the corner. But for other things we're being a lot more suplicit now, like, Okay, we started this because we thought it was a three month project. If it were a six month project, would we still do it? And then saying yes or no before you start, And then and then if it sweats stretches to six months, you can say, Okay, that's still within the parameters or what we said it was worth it. But when it starts to go beyond that, that's when you say, oh, not worth it, and then also that being clear to everyone involved so that they know that the deadline really starts to become much more of a deadline once it goes beyond that place that you wouldn't can do it from scratch.

So one thing that I've actually been working a lot this year is allowing myself and other people to say, you know, opt out of a meeting for example, not just go into a meeting because it's it's what we do every week or every other week or every month, but saying hey, is you know, do you feel like you got a lot out of this, and if so, please come back. If not, it's okay to opt out. And just making meetings optional is interesting. And you know, if you do a good job about having an agenda beforehand, people can read it and choose to opt in, or of course you can reach out to someone and say, hey, I think it's important for you to be part of this conversation. But by making it a bit more optional, it's a good balance between people not feeling excluded but also not you know, wasting time for yourself, for others, and then for projects just trying to be more explicit at the start with how long we expected to take. You know, I can think of an example, you know, we're in the middle of one right now, and one that just kind of wrapped up, or something that started and we thought it was kind of a four or five month thing, and actually the worst case ended up going closer to eighteen months. And so at many points along that path we should have had I think this is called the sun cost fallacy, Like we should have said, oh, if we had known it would have taken eighteen months at the beginning, we wouldn't have done it. So we should stop it now, even though that's painful and people want to finish it or it always seems right around the corner. But for other things we're being a lot more suplicit now, like, Okay, we started this because we thought it was a three month project. If it were a six month project, would we still do it? And then saying yes or no before you start, And then and then if it sweats stretches to six months, you can say, Okay, that's still within the parameters or what we said it was worth it. But when it starts to go beyond that, that's when you say, oh, not worth it, and then also that being clear to everyone involved so that they know that the deadline really starts to become much more of a deadline once it goes beyond that place that you wouldn't can do it from scratch.

Yeah, I like that approach, and I was curious as to what you said about meetings as well, and people being able to opt out of meetings, and it certainly puts the onus on the meeting organizer to make it a really good meeting. Have you had many people opt out of meetings after I guess giving that permission?

Yeah, I like that approach, and I was curious as to what you said about meetings as well, and people being able to opt out of meetings, and it certainly puts the onus on the meeting organizer to make it a really good meeting. Have you had many people opt out of meetings after I guess giving that permission?

Oh for sure, and I opped out of a ton, So I think that it's it's something that it's not necessarily you want to have a culture where it's an okay thing to do and doesn't have like other hidden meetings. So obviously, if like it's some sort of like passive aggressive, I don't like your project or something that would not be productive. But if it's really just hey, I'm happy to be part of this. I'll read the notes. You know, you can stay engaged with that needing to take that real time sort of real time interaction, you know, when you have a meeting, you need to think of the time I multiplied by the number of people there. So if you have eight people in a meeting, that's kind of a full workday worth of work. It's eight hours, even if it's just an hour long meeting.

Oh for sure, and I opped out of a ton, So I think that it's it's something that it's not necessarily you want to have a culture where it's an okay thing to do and doesn't have like other hidden meetings. So obviously, if like it's some sort of like passive aggressive, I don't like your project or something that would not be productive. But if it's really just hey, I'm happy to be part of this. I'll read the notes. You know, you can stay engaged with that needing to take that real time sort of real time interaction, you know, when you have a meeting, you need to think of the time I multiplied by the number of people there. So if you have eight people in a meeting, that's kind of a full workday worth of work. It's eight hours, even if it's just an hour long meeting.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to come back to something that you mentioned before about how when you are at an event, you'll be present, you'll switch off email, and I wanted to know what is your approach to managing your inbox? And I get that you've obviously got Slack as well, and I imagine that's mostly for internal comms, But what's your approach to managing your inbox?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to come back to something that you mentioned before about how when you are at an event, you'll be present, you'll switch off email, and I wanted to know what is your approach to managing your inbox? And I get that you've obviously got Slack as well, and I imagine that's mostly for internal comms, But what's your approach to managing your inbox?

Hmm.

Hmm.

I don't know if I'm a great example here because my workflow and systems are very kind of bespoken unique I am.

I don't know if I'm a great example here because my workflow and systems are very kind of bespoken unique I am.

You know.

You know.

I have two assistants, so for help with scheduling things or things like that, or sometimes just raising things that I might have missed, they're able to jump in. I have an email system which actually goes through if you can believe it, a WordPress plugin, So when you email me, it gets piped through through WordPress. Actually that then does like a database look up on the sender. It has records of all my sent mail. So if I interact with this person recently, and then based on that and other characteristics or kind of regular expressions I write, the email might get filtered into several different boxes. Obviously an inbox, which is, you know, kind of the easy one, but then there could be an unknown box, low priority, high priority shopping, you know, all these receipts and things. So having a lot of that filtering done automatically means that I spend very little time kind of categorizing things or filtering things, but it's still pretty neatly organized. I'm not an inbox zero person, although the thought of it is very appealing to me. Right now, I have, let's see, one hundred and twenty things in the inbox, and so that's a combination of maybe some subscriptions or things I follow that I really want to read, and then people who I really want to reply to or that are are kind of important and I.

I have two assistants, so for help with scheduling things or things like that, or sometimes just raising things that I might have missed, they're able to jump in. I have an email system which actually goes through if you can believe it, a WordPress plugin, So when you email me, it gets piped through through WordPress. Actually that then does like a database look up on the sender. It has records of all my sent mail. So if I interact with this person recently, and then based on that and other characteristics or kind of regular expressions I write, the email might get filtered into several different boxes. Obviously an inbox, which is, you know, kind of the easy one, but then there could be an unknown box, low priority, high priority shopping, you know, all these receipts and things. So having a lot of that filtering done automatically means that I spend very little time kind of categorizing things or filtering things, but it's still pretty neatly organized. I'm not an inbox zero person, although the thought of it is very appealing to me. Right now, I have, let's see, one hundred and twenty things in the inbox, and so that's a combination of maybe some subscriptions or things I follow that I really want to read, and then people who I really want to reply to or that are are kind of important and I.

Check.

Check.

To be honest, I'm not great at email in that I probably only work on it every couple of days. I might do like little bits of maintenance throughout the course of a day, but like really digging in and sending replies. Is it best kind of once or twice a week.

To be honest, I'm not great at email in that I probably only work on it every couple of days. I might do like little bits of maintenance throughout the course of a day, but like really digging in and sending replies. Is it best kind of once or twice a week.

Wow, does that take discipline or is that easy to sort of not be in it too much?

Wow, does that take discipline or is that easy to sort of not be in it too much?

I find an email incredibly easy to ignore too often to the detriment of myself and others.

I find an email incredibly easy to ignore too often to the detriment of myself and others.

Excellent, And what are your favorite apps or tools or technology for getting more done being more productive? So I'm loving the sound of how your email is organized. That sounds amazing.

Excellent, And what are your favorite apps or tools or technology for getting more done being more productive? So I'm loving the sound of how your email is organized. That sounds amazing.

Well, I you know, I think it's worthwhile, especially if you have the ability to code or invest in someone who does actually invest in like workflow and other things like that. So there's a number of areas where I feel like my life is significantly easier because there's just things that are being automated or coded. I guess my go too is we mentioned calm already, and that's kind of a great meta investment. And the kindle audible and overcast for consuming audio content, either books or podcasts. My other go tos, I use both wonderlist and to do list. Wonderless for collaborative list and to do this for my personal I use simple note a tone which is actually an automatic product for keeping notes throughout the days. And if I to do something very collaborative, like let's say, a person who I work with quite a bit. Will often have a shared Google document that will open if we're ever having a meeting, and then also so can function almost more like a whiteboard or shared notes. We'll use it his agenda for our next meeting, and then we can just kind of put open items there. So if they're reading a me for something around waiting for them on something, we'll make sure to mark that down with a date so that it can be tracked. Internally, we use a ton of WordPress, so that's really how we communicate as more WordPress than anything else. And you know, just trying to have like the home screen on my phone doesn't have anything that's distracting. It's only like good habits.

Well, I you know, I think it's worthwhile, especially if you have the ability to code or invest in someone who does actually invest in like workflow and other things like that. So there's a number of areas where I feel like my life is significantly easier because there's just things that are being automated or coded. I guess my go too is we mentioned calm already, and that's kind of a great meta investment. And the kindle audible and overcast for consuming audio content, either books or podcasts. My other go tos, I use both wonderlist and to do list. Wonderless for collaborative list and to do this for my personal I use simple note a tone which is actually an automatic product for keeping notes throughout the days. And if I to do something very collaborative, like let's say, a person who I work with quite a bit. Will often have a shared Google document that will open if we're ever having a meeting, and then also so can function almost more like a whiteboard or shared notes. We'll use it his agenda for our next meeting, and then we can just kind of put open items there. So if they're reading a me for something around waiting for them on something, we'll make sure to mark that down with a date so that it can be tracked. Internally, we use a ton of WordPress, so that's really how we communicate as more WordPress than anything else. And you know, just trying to have like the home screen on my phone doesn't have anything that's distracting. It's only like good habits.

Like what's some examples of.

Like what's some examples of.

Those, So like instead of Facebook, I'll have Kindle or you know, audio apps, run keeper. My kind of bottom bar is lift Google mapps to do list and calendar, so all things that are are very.

Those, So like instead of Facebook, I'll have Kindle or you know, audio apps, run keeper. My kind of bottom bar is lift Google mapps to do list and calendar, so all things that are are very.

Very kind of productive.

Very kind of productive.

I removed the Google app from there, which I like using for searching for things, because when you launch a Google app, it also shows you interesting news stories. So I just wanted to kind of change my muscle memory and move it around. I find that you know, if I find myself using something too often or getting to it just moving it can sometimes break that pattern. So you know my thumb, I'll actually accidentally click on the thing I replace it with. Just because you get in these patterns.

I removed the Google app from there, which I like using for searching for things, because when you launch a Google app, it also shows you interesting news stories. So I just wanted to kind of change my muscle memory and move it around. I find that you know, if I find myself using something too often or getting to it just moving it can sometimes break that pattern. So you know my thumb, I'll actually accidentally click on the thing I replace it with. Just because you get in these patterns.

And.

And.

By knowing how the patterns work, I think it makes it at least more possible to break them. I won't say it makes it easier, but it makes it at least that you can recognize yourself sometimes in it.

By knowing how the patterns work, I think it makes it at least more possible to break them. I won't say it makes it easier, but it makes it at least that you can recognize yourself sometimes in it.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

I like that. I've definitely experimented with what goes in that bottom vire as well. I heard that you in terms of keyboard, you don't use a quirty keyboard, which is the traditional keyboard layerup, but you use a divorac and know if I pronounced that correctly keyboard, And I'm wondering, can you explain what that is and and why you made that movement? Also just how how you made the switch? How how do you learn a new keyboard system?

I like that. I've definitely experimented with what goes in that bottom vire as well. I heard that you in terms of keyboard, you don't use a quirty keyboard, which is the traditional keyboard layerup, but you use a divorac and know if I pronounced that correctly keyboard, And I'm wondering, can you explain what that is and and why you made that movement? Also just how how you made the switch? How how do you learn a new keyboard system?

Oh, it's much like learning the type. So all the however you learn the type or I find many people actually haven't learned the type properly. You can there's tons of stuff for free online. I think you know, back in the day there were apps like Mavis Beacon Teachers typing if you remember that one, Yeah, but you can basically including for Divorac learning. You just google and there's a bunch of free kind of like online stuff where you practice letters. So you do like on Devorak, maybe you do an aaaaa ee. You kind of train yourself to learn, and it's actually not hard to know multiple ones. Just like many people you'll play multiple instruments that might be slightly different, like the clarinet and the saxophone. Like some of it is, of course the ambushure and the other parts of it, but a big part of it's the fingering and where you go. And after I would say, not even that many hours of dedicated work, you know, call it fifteen to twenty five of like deliberate practice, you can be easily at a useful typing speed, you know, call it forty or fifty words per minute, which is what I call like thinking speed. You know, often we're not limited by our typing speed, but really like our ability to know what to say.

Oh, it's much like learning the type. So all the however you learn the type or I find many people actually haven't learned the type properly. You can there's tons of stuff for free online. I think you know, back in the day there were apps like Mavis Beacon Teachers typing if you remember that one, Yeah, but you can basically including for Divorac learning. You just google and there's a bunch of free kind of like online stuff where you practice letters. So you do like on Devorak, maybe you do an aaaaa ee. You kind of train yourself to learn, and it's actually not hard to know multiple ones. Just like many people you'll play multiple instruments that might be slightly different, like the clarinet and the saxophone. Like some of it is, of course the ambushure and the other parts of it, but a big part of it's the fingering and where you go. And after I would say, not even that many hours of dedicated work, you know, call it fifteen to twenty five of like deliberate practice, you can be easily at a useful typing speed, you know, call it forty or fifty words per minute, which is what I call like thinking speed. You know, often we're not limited by our typing speed, but really like our ability to know what to say.

Or what to code.

Or what to code.

And then of course with practice, I can type probably up to maybe in the one twenties words permitt but I almost never do because again, I don't think that quickly generally, and the theory behind the work is it's just a more modern keyboard. Laout Quarity was created in part to make it so that when you type letters that are very frequently occur together, like T and H for example, which is the most common letter pair in the English language. If those remember the arms that used to come out, If those arms are right next to each other, they could get stuck on each other and jam your typewriter. So quirdy is optimized a lot more for having those common pairs further away from each other or in arms that would not run into each other. This is actually useful for thumb typing, so I don't think quirty is bad for mobile, and I actually use it for there. But then on desktop you of course want to have your your different fingers or different strengths. If you're on the home road, it's more efficient than if it's in a place where you move your finger to and and you can do things like for example, T and H in the in the divorak keyboard is your right hand middle finger, and then the finger right next to your thumb. Is that a ring finger? No, I guess it's the index finger, so you could just I mean, if you just do that right now, like push down your middle finger and then your your index finger. It's a very natural movement. And doing one of those right after it the other is almost like you might tap on a desk if you were just fidgeting. So having those most common vows and consonants on the home rule and then the most common pair is next to each other is very, very useful. And that's the design of of work I switched to when I was much much younger, because when I was a teenager, I thought, well, I'm probably going to type the rest of my life, so even if I can become ten percent more efficient, that'll be a worthwhile investment. And I have many colleagues who've switched in a more modern era, and my only advice there is to kind of go cold turkey, So really force yourself to use the new layout as much as possible, and then put in, if you can, a bit of time every day to actually deliberately practice. And there's a diminishan marginal return, So thirty minutes to an hour day is probably really good, where hours a day would be a waste of your time, you know, But if you can put in a bit of practice and then kind of force yourself to use it the rest of the day where you're just kind of, you know, painfully slow, but picking it up, you'll be there certainly in less than a month.

And then of course with practice, I can type probably up to maybe in the one twenties words permitt but I almost never do because again, I don't think that quickly generally, and the theory behind the work is it's just a more modern keyboard. Laout Quarity was created in part to make it so that when you type letters that are very frequently occur together, like T and H for example, which is the most common letter pair in the English language. If those remember the arms that used to come out, If those arms are right next to each other, they could get stuck on each other and jam your typewriter. So quirdy is optimized a lot more for having those common pairs further away from each other or in arms that would not run into each other. This is actually useful for thumb typing, so I don't think quirty is bad for mobile, and I actually use it for there. But then on desktop you of course want to have your your different fingers or different strengths. If you're on the home road, it's more efficient than if it's in a place where you move your finger to and and you can do things like for example, T and H in the in the divorak keyboard is your right hand middle finger, and then the finger right next to your thumb. Is that a ring finger? No, I guess it's the index finger, so you could just I mean, if you just do that right now, like push down your middle finger and then your your index finger. It's a very natural movement. And doing one of those right after it the other is almost like you might tap on a desk if you were just fidgeting. So having those most common vows and consonants on the home rule and then the most common pair is next to each other is very, very useful. And that's the design of of work I switched to when I was much much younger, because when I was a teenager, I thought, well, I'm probably going to type the rest of my life, so even if I can become ten percent more efficient, that'll be a worthwhile investment. And I have many colleagues who've switched in a more modern era, and my only advice there is to kind of go cold turkey, So really force yourself to use the new layout as much as possible, and then put in, if you can, a bit of time every day to actually deliberately practice. And there's a diminishan marginal return, So thirty minutes to an hour day is probably really good, where hours a day would be a waste of your time, you know, But if you can put in a bit of practice and then kind of force yourself to use it the rest of the day where you're just kind of, you know, painfully slow, but picking it up, you'll be there certainly in less than a month.

Hmm.

Hmm.

That's cool, it's encouraging. I'm quite inspired to keep that in card.

That's cool, it's encouraging. I'm quite inspired to keep that in card.

If you're going to give it a go. By the way, there's one that's slightly more efficient. So there's a keyboard layout called Colmac.

If you're going to give it a go. By the way, there's one that's slightly more efficient. So there's a keyboard layout called Colmac.

Ah, Yes, I've heard of that.

Ah, Yes, I've heard of that.

Yes, actually has.

Yes, actually has.

A lot of overlap with Devorak. But Devorak was invented kind of prior to World War Two and using some great technology at the time. But then you know they didn't have computers and such, and so Colemack. So Devorak is I'm going to make these numbers up. But let's say, way more efficient than Quirity, like much much much better. Colemac's maybe five percent more efficient than Devorak. So even using their their sort of ancient methods of research and efficiency, they got pretty darn close to the ideal. So but if you were starting today, I would say go straight to Colmac. And these layouts are built into every modern computer system.

A lot of overlap with Devorak. But Devorak was invented kind of prior to World War Two and using some great technology at the time. But then you know they didn't have computers and such, and so Colemack. So Devorak is I'm going to make these numbers up. But let's say, way more efficient than Quirity, like much much much better. Colemac's maybe five percent more efficient than Devorak. So even using their their sort of ancient methods of research and efficiency, they got pretty darn close to the ideal. So but if you were starting today, I would say go straight to Colmac. And these layouts are built into every modern computer system.

Yeah, I was.

Yeah, I was.

Gonna ask, and have you ever thought about making the change to COLMAC.

Gonna ask, and have you ever thought about making the change to COLMAC.

Have definitely seriously considered it. Because I'm so fast on DEVORAK and there's not that big a difference, I question whether it's worth it. So I haven't done it yet, but if I had, I do still think about it sometimes and I might still do it, so we'll see.

Have definitely seriously considered it. Because I'm so fast on DEVORAK and there's not that big a difference, I question whether it's worth it. So I haven't done it yet, but if I had, I do still think about it sometimes and I might still do it, so we'll see.

And for creative work, I think I heard that you use an analogue notebook, so you move away from the keyboard completely. Is that correct.

And for creative work, I think I heard that you use an analogue notebook, so you move away from the keyboard completely. Is that correct.

I find it really satisfying to cross things off on a paper. And also if I am in a meeting, even if it's a video call, which is many of my one on one meetings, I think for both sides, typing can feel very distracting. Certainly if you're in person someone's like typing things down, it just feels like they're not present. But writing doesn't have that same effect. So that's why I take a lot of notes. It's because it helps me remember. Occasionally I type them up afterwards or might translate them into a computer to do. But yeah, just for in the moment, it's great to have paper.

I find it really satisfying to cross things off on a paper. And also if I am in a meeting, even if it's a video call, which is many of my one on one meetings, I think for both sides, typing can feel very distracting. Certainly if you're in person someone's like typing things down, it just feels like they're not present. But writing doesn't have that same effect. So that's why I take a lot of notes. It's because it helps me remember. Occasionally I type them up afterwards or might translate them into a computer to do. But yeah, just for in the moment, it's great to have paper.

Mm. I like that. I like that, like a.

Mm. I like that. I like that, like a.

Ted for example, they even discourage having your phone out, so I would keep a notebook in my pocket the whole time. So if I neither write anything down or could take a quick note, I could mmmm.

Ted for example, they even discourage having your phone out, so I would keep a notebook in my pocket the whole time. So if I neither write anything down or could take a quick note, I could mmmm.

And so that's interesting. So you'll you'll type up some of the notes but not others, Like after Ted, for example, what did you do with the notes that you took from Ted?

And so that's interesting. So you'll you'll type up some of the notes but not others, Like after Ted, for example, what did you do with the notes that you took from Ted?

Hm, I'm trying to think. I probably do a quick glance over them. Sometimes I write them down just to remember them, not to actually look back at them. But the act of writing helps me kind of distill a little bit, and then other times I'll really go back and turn it into some to do. So like for example, if let's say you and I were having a one on one meeting and you were a direct report of mine, so we worked very closely together, I would take written notes, and then I would actually post the meeting as one of my As you probably tell, I like meetings to be will time will spend, So I usually like to have a bit of time beforehand to prepare and then budget a bit of time afterwards to process everything that came out of the meeting and do any follow ups or at least track whether's follow up should be. Sometimes I'll even use a voice memo for that. So there was a time a few weeks ago I was really kind of back to back in New York and going between things very quickly, so I was literally almost running between meetings. Not quite, but they were very important meetings, so I really want to make sure I captured all my thoughts from them. So just as I was walking down the street, I did probably like a five or eight minute voice memo that was much like things I would write down, but we're just you know, kind of thoughts and things from the meetings, and actually, you know, once it's on your iPhone voice memo, I was able to send that to my assistant and she was able to type it up, so then that made it easier for me to turn it into written follow ups and notes for my college that they wanted to share the notes from the meetings with m I.

Hm, I'm trying to think. I probably do a quick glance over them. Sometimes I write them down just to remember them, not to actually look back at them. But the act of writing helps me kind of distill a little bit, and then other times I'll really go back and turn it into some to do. So like for example, if let's say you and I were having a one on one meeting and you were a direct report of mine, so we worked very closely together, I would take written notes, and then I would actually post the meeting as one of my As you probably tell, I like meetings to be will time will spend, So I usually like to have a bit of time beforehand to prepare and then budget a bit of time afterwards to process everything that came out of the meeting and do any follow ups or at least track whether's follow up should be. Sometimes I'll even use a voice memo for that. So there was a time a few weeks ago I was really kind of back to back in New York and going between things very quickly, so I was literally almost running between meetings. Not quite, but they were very important meetings, so I really want to make sure I captured all my thoughts from them. So just as I was walking down the street, I did probably like a five or eight minute voice memo that was much like things I would write down, but we're just you know, kind of thoughts and things from the meetings, and actually, you know, once it's on your iPhone voice memo, I was able to send that to my assistant and she was able to type it up, so then that made it easier for me to turn it into written follow ups and notes for my college that they wanted to share the notes from the meetings with m I.

Like that, Yes, very cool. Yeah, I use voice memos quite a bit myself. I wondered, I want to finish with a few kind of quick questions to understand what are you consuming right now? Because I can think it can be so so hard for the average person to know, like what are the best and most inspiring and most interesting sources of information given its it's just all a little bit overload. So to start with, what, what are like a couple of podcasts that you're currently loving and consuming.

Like that, Yes, very cool. Yeah, I use voice memos quite a bit myself. I wondered, I want to finish with a few kind of quick questions to understand what are you consuming right now? Because I can think it can be so so hard for the average person to know, like what are the best and most inspiring and most interesting sources of information given its it's just all a little bit overload. So to start with, what, what are like a couple of podcasts that you're currently loving and consuming.

Oh, I'm going to do a plug on the first one. There's a podcast called Bundyville that long reads, which is an automatic product, did it with MBR and it's a really fun narrative awsome the Yeah, I love Farnham Streets. And there's a podcast called The Knowledge Project that's from the same site. It's probably one of my top sites and podcasts in the world. A really thoughtful guy named Shane Parris, actually Canadian, but just one of the smartest people you've ever met, and really really dives into you know, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett and other people who've been successful really over decades versus you know, many of the folks if you pick up like a magazine, they're talking about who's successful that year.

Oh, I'm going to do a plug on the first one. There's a podcast called Bundyville that long reads, which is an automatic product, did it with MBR and it's a really fun narrative awsome the Yeah, I love Farnham Streets. And there's a podcast called The Knowledge Project that's from the same site. It's probably one of my top sites and podcasts in the world. A really thoughtful guy named Shane Parris, actually Canadian, but just one of the smartest people you've ever met, and really really dives into you know, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett and other people who've been successful really over decades versus you know, many of the folks if you pick up like a magazine, they're talking about who's successful that year.

It's not a longevity to it.

It's not a longevity to it.

And so I get far more interested with kind of what's happened over decades, and so you find yourself drawn to folks like Ben Franklin, Charlie Munger, you know that, or firms that have succeeded over a long time, even like the Koch Brothers, that you're like, Okay, there's something working here that goes beyond you know, even one or two business cycles. I love on being with Christa Tippett probably one of my top ones. On Margins with Craig Maud. I listened a lot to Tim Ferriss, of course, he's a good friend. And you know, new one that I just started that I'm very much enjoying is there's a doctor named Peter Attia, and I think his podcast is called Drive the Peter Atia Drive, and he is a doctor obviously an MD, but also you know, really studies wellness and longevity, and so I would call him very much on the maybe bleeding edges and a good word to use with medical terms, but like the kind of the very up to the minute on all of the latest papers and science and everything like that. And so he engages with folks like maybe Ronda Patrick, who are literally driving the science for what helps you be your your healthiest and so that I just find really really fascinating.

And so I get far more interested with kind of what's happened over decades, and so you find yourself drawn to folks like Ben Franklin, Charlie Munger, you know that, or firms that have succeeded over a long time, even like the Koch Brothers, that you're like, Okay, there's something working here that goes beyond you know, even one or two business cycles. I love on being with Christa Tippett probably one of my top ones. On Margins with Craig Maud. I listened a lot to Tim Ferriss, of course, he's a good friend. And you know, new one that I just started that I'm very much enjoying is there's a doctor named Peter Attia, and I think his podcast is called Drive the Peter Atia Drive, and he is a doctor obviously an MD, but also you know, really studies wellness and longevity, and so I would call him very much on the maybe bleeding edges and a good word to use with medical terms, but like the kind of the very up to the minute on all of the latest papers and science and everything like that. And so he engages with folks like maybe Ronda Patrick, who are literally driving the science for what helps you be your your healthiest and so that I just find really really fascinating.

I'm gonna check that one out. That sounds really interesting. Any newsletters that you that you actually look forward to receiving. You mentioned you might have a few waiting for you in your inbox to be read. What are your favorites.

I'm gonna check that one out. That sounds really interesting. Any newsletters that you that you actually look forward to receiving. You mentioned you might have a few waiting for you in your inbox to be read. What are your favorites.

It's actually a big overlap with the things I just said. So Peter Attiya has one, Farnham Street has a Newsleader.

It's actually a big overlap with the things I just said. So Peter Attiya has one, Farnham Street has a Newsleader.

Yes, I get that one. That's great.

Yes, I get that one. That's great.

And there's one other that's kind of new for me that I'm joining. Craig Mott has one, like it's funny. It's almost all the same. If I like them enough to listen to their podcast, I probably am willing to get an email from them. One of the others that's kind of relatively new, and someone who I'm a huge fan of is Kevin Kelly.

And there's one other that's kind of new for me that I'm joining. Craig Mott has one, like it's funny. It's almost all the same. If I like them enough to listen to their podcast, I probably am willing to get an email from them. One of the others that's kind of relatively new, and someone who I'm a huge fan of is Kevin Kelly.

He is has a website kk dot org.

He is has a website kk dot org.

Super against someone who's done interesting things over decades, including like being one of the co founders of Wired magazine, and you know, walking hundreds of miles through Asia in like the sixties and seventies, and like just like way before anyone else was on things studying virtual reality in the seventies and eighties. So he has one called a recommendo, which is he and two of the folks who are also very interesting go through and recommend just a few things each week that might be a book, it might be a thing, it might be a movie or a Netflix thing. So I found that to be really high signal to noise.

Super against someone who's done interesting things over decades, including like being one of the co founders of Wired magazine, and you know, walking hundreds of miles through Asia in like the sixties and seventies, and like just like way before anyone else was on things studying virtual reality in the seventies and eighties. So he has one called a recommendo, which is he and two of the folks who are also very interesting go through and recommend just a few things each week that might be a book, it might be a thing, it might be a movie or a Netflix thing. So I found that to be really high signal to noise.

Hm, I recently subscribed to that one, and I must say I'm loving that. And finally I'll.

Hm, I recently subscribed to that one, and I must say I'm loving that. And finally I'll.

Say one more.

Say one more.

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

It's called the Long Now Foundation, which is actually one of the places where I've gone to know Kevin Kelly through and they do a series of talks. It's a foundation literally dedicated to long term thinking, and so you know, you can imagine their talks being really great and the things they publish on their website being also excellent.

It's called the Long Now Foundation, which is actually one of the places where I've gone to know Kevin Kelly through and they do a series of talks. It's a foundation literally dedicated to long term thinking, and so you know, you can imagine their talks being really great and the things they publish on their website being also excellent.

Oh that's cool. That's cool. And finally, it sounds like you're going to hit about forty five books this year. What's a good one that you've read recently?

Oh that's cool. That's cool. And finally, it sounds like you're going to hit about forty five books this year. What's a good one that you've read recently?

You know, I'll try to recommend some ones that aren't like the ones that everyone knows, like I just finished Sapiens, but like.

You know, I'll try to recommend some ones that aren't like the ones that everyone knows, like I just finished Sapiens, but like.

Everyone knows Sapiens. Right.

Everyone knows Sapiens. Right.

A really great sort of collection of nonfiction essays which is called called Howdwighten autobiographical novel by a relatively new Korean American author named Alexander Chi is really fantastic In terms of a business book, I read one called Black Box Thinking by Matthew c Ed I really enjoyed that kind of combined a lot of you know, with a lot of business books, they are duplicative or could be a good article. He did a great job of bringing together lots of great research and other books and putting it into one nice package. I like reading older stuff, so I recently read The Conquest of Happiness by Bertrand Russell and Fiction Knowness Fiction Knowness, I don't know how to pronounce it Spanish originally in Spanish by Jorge Luis Spores that were both really really good. And then if anyone loves sci fi, probably the most amazing collection of short stories in sci fi I read is called The Paper Menagerie by this art he's an artist, but author named ken lou l i U, who's probably more famous for being the translator of the Three Body Problem from Amandarin Too English. So he has his own, you know, fiction that he's written that it's kind of a mix of sci fi, speculative fiction, and kind of just history. Actually, that was one of the most stop provoking things I've read in many, many years.