Today's show is an unusual one because the wonderful Shelley Johnson, host of This Is Work, interviewed me for.

Today's show is an unusual one because the wonderful Shelley Johnson, host of This Is Work, interviewed me for.

Her podcast and has kindly let.

Her podcast and has kindly let.

Me share the interview with you. In this chat, we explore some of the counterintuitive strategies to achieving genuine productivity, the kinds that don't leave you feeling burnt out by the day's end. You will learn why stopping mid sentence might be your productivity superpower, how splashing cold water on your face could save your afternoon slump, and why most of us are spending seven hours a day on what I call counterfeit productivity. So whether you're struggling with energy dips, battling burnout, or simply trying to focus on what truly matters in your work, this conversation will give you some practical, science backed strategies that you can implement today.

Me share the interview with you. In this chat, we explore some of the counterintuitive strategies to achieving genuine productivity, the kinds that don't leave you feeling burnt out by the day's end. You will learn why stopping mid sentence might be your productivity superpower, how splashing cold water on your face could save your afternoon slump, and why most of us are spending seven hours a day on what I call counterfeit productivity. So whether you're struggling with energy dips, battling burnout, or simply trying to focus on what truly matters in your work, this conversation will give you some practical, science backed strategies that you can implement today.

Amantha, thank you for coming back on the show. It's great to have this conversation with you.

Amantha, thank you for coming back on the show. It's great to have this conversation with you.

I'm really excited to be here. I loved our last conversation oh so deep. We went so many different places. But today today I.

I'm really excited to be here. I loved our last conversation oh so deep. We went so many different places. But today today I.

Have been thinking about your work and the combination of your focus on productivity as well as health, and I think it's really interesting the link between those two things, how important one is for the other.

Have been thinking about your work and the combination of your focus on productivity as well as health, and I think it's really interesting the link between those two things, how important one is for the other.

So we're going to go there today. We're going to talk.

So we're going to go there today. We're going to talk.

About how we build these health habits, how we be more productive. It's just something we all want. And I want to start off with a question I have for you around sometimes productivity is counterintuitive, like the things that we think will make us productive sometimes don't, and the things that make us productive that we're like, wait, what does that actually work. What's the most counterproductive productivity tip that's helped you.

About how we build these health habits, how we be more productive. It's just something we all want. And I want to start off with a question I have for you around sometimes productivity is counterintuitive, like the things that we think will make us productive sometimes don't, and the things that make us productive that we're like, wait, what does that actually work. What's the most counterproductive productivity tip that's helped you.

I would say.

I would say.

It would be I've heard it referred to as the Hemingway trick, and other people refer to it as parking on a downhill slope. And I think I first heard it from Adam Grant or Rachel Botsman. It's something they both use. And what it involves is when you're wrapping up your work for the day, Intuitively, you kind of you want to find closure, you want to finish the task that you were doing. But when you start your work again in the morning, if you finish something and you're starting afresh on a brand new task, that is a big cause of procrastination. And so the Hemingway trick involves actually stopping when you're halfway through something. Why it's called the Hemingway trick is that Ernest Hemingway used to stop writing mid paragraph or even mid sentence, so that it made starting again the next day really easy and really easy to get into float. So, for example, how I'm using it literally right now, I'm on deadline for my fifth book, and every morning I spend the first one to three hours writing and researching, and so when I wrap up my writing mid morning, I will never finish at the end of a chapter. I will always finish halfway through something, and it makes starting again.

It would be I've heard it referred to as the Hemingway trick, and other people refer to it as parking on a downhill slope. And I think I first heard it from Adam Grant or Rachel Botsman. It's something they both use. And what it involves is when you're wrapping up your work for the day, Intuitively, you kind of you want to find closure, you want to finish the task that you were doing. But when you start your work again in the morning, if you finish something and you're starting afresh on a brand new task, that is a big cause of procrastination. And so the Hemingway trick involves actually stopping when you're halfway through something. Why it's called the Hemingway trick is that Ernest Hemingway used to stop writing mid paragraph or even mid sentence, so that it made starting again the next day really easy and really easy to get into float. So, for example, how I'm using it literally right now, I'm on deadline for my fifth book, and every morning I spend the first one to three hours writing and researching, and so when I wrap up my writing mid morning, I will never finish at the end of a chapter. I will always finish halfway through something, and it makes starting again.

Really really easy in the morning. It sounds as you're talking.

Really really easy in the morning. It sounds as you're talking.

If people can see my face, I'm like smiling, but inside I'm cringing, like I.

If people can see my face, I'm like smiling, but inside I'm cringing, like I.

Feel like I've got goose bunds, just thinking about like, no, you can't, you can't finish midway through a sentence.

Feel like I've got goose bunds, just thinking about like, no, you can't, you can't finish midway through a sentence.

Did that first start make you feel weird? Like were you feeling as uncomfortable as I am, because I've like got that hebe Gebi's feeling.

Did that first start make you feel weird? Like were you feeling as uncomfortable as I am, because I've like got that hebe Gebi's feeling.

I'm like, no, you must finish that particular task.

I'm like, no, you must finish that particular task.

I'll tell you what it is weird. But when you feel just how good it feels in the morning, because I find starting something very hard. I mean, jen Ai makes it easier to prompt you in different directions, but writing can often feel like hard work when you're on a deadline and I try to write a thousand words a day, and if I was writing like a project that didn't involve a lot of research, it's an easier target to hit because you know, I've got lots of practice writing, and I find it, you know, perhaps easier than most people, simply because I practice a lot, but.

I'll tell you what it is weird. But when you feel just how good it feels in the morning, because I find starting something very hard. I mean, jen Ai makes it easier to prompt you in different directions, but writing can often feel like hard work when you're on a deadline and I try to write a thousand words a day, and if I was writing like a project that didn't involve a lot of research, it's an easier target to hit because you know, I've got lots of practice writing, and I find it, you know, perhaps easier than most people, simply because I practice a lot, but.

I just love it.

I just love it.

Every morning I'm like, oh great, I'm straight in and I'm like, this is where I finished and it wasn't finished, and it's just so easy to get started.

Every morning I'm like, oh great, I'm straight in and I'm like, this is where I finished and it wasn't finished, and it's just so easy to get started.

Well, I love that because that is counterintuitive.

Well, I love that because that is counterintuitive.

I wouldn't think to do that.

I wouldn't think to do that.

I would think that that would make me feel like I hadn't finished my day the day before. And so just knowing that that is a technique that can work, that can get you over because I absolutely know that feeling of starting something.

I would think that that would make me feel like I hadn't finished my day the day before. And so just knowing that that is a technique that can work, that can get you over because I absolutely know that feeling of starting something.

Feels like that big lift.

Feels like that big lift.

That's the resistance we feel in the morning, especially if it's something like weighty, like writing, for example, if or thinking about a chapter you're writing. It can feel really heavy just going from like the blank page staring at you with the cursor just blinking, going oh my gosh, here we go to like actually starting where you've already got a roll on.

That's the resistance we feel in the morning, especially if it's something like weighty, like writing, for example, if or thinking about a chapter you're writing. It can feel really heavy just going from like the blank page staring at you with the cursor just blinking, going oh my gosh, here we go to like actually starting where you've already got a roll on.

Yeah, it's like it's the best.

Yeah, it's like it's the best.

So that right now is I would say the number one productivity strategy that is helping me get shit done.

So that right now is I would say the number one productivity strategy that is helping me get shit done.

Love it.

Love it.

I'm going to try it, even though it's making me feel weird just talking about it.

I'm going to try it, even though it's making me feel weird just talking about it.

I need to try this.

I need to try this.

So I want to know, just speaking of your writing, and one thing I'm finding at the moment for me personally, but I know a lot of our listeners who are knowledge workers who are working either from home or in an office. One thing I'm hearing a lot is that people want more creativity. They want to be able to be more creative. What are some things that you've been doing, especially in your writing process, Because writing is such a deep work and if people haven't spent time, like you've written so many books, you're onto your fifth book, the level of depths that goes into it, as well as creative energy is massive.

So I want to know, just speaking of your writing, and one thing I'm finding at the moment for me personally, but I know a lot of our listeners who are knowledge workers who are working either from home or in an office. One thing I'm hearing a lot is that people want more creativity. They want to be able to be more creative. What are some things that you've been doing, especially in your writing process, Because writing is such a deep work and if people haven't spent time, like you've written so many books, you're onto your fifth book, the level of depths that goes into it, as well as creative energy is massive.

It's huge.

It's huge.

Are there things that you're doing to help build that level of creativity?

Are there things that you're doing to help build that level of creativity?

In your work.

In your work.

Something I've been doing a lot in the last few months is using voice mode on chat GPT and essentially going for a walk. It feels like going for a walk with a buddy or a collaborator. And what my process is is I probably do this once every day or two, where I'll be nutting something out, Like at the moment, I'm struggling with how to structure the book, like i'd when I put in the book proposal to Penguin, I had a pretty clear idea, but as I'm probably about I'm thirty thousand words in now or thereabouts, I'm like, I don't know if this structure is working, and that's a creative problem to solve in my mind. So what I'll do is, and I've done a few walks where I've been trying to nut this out, is I will prompt the AI to think in a certain way, Like sometimes I'll prompt it to, you know, think like certain writers that have structured.

Something I've been doing a lot in the last few months is using voice mode on chat GPT and essentially going for a walk. It feels like going for a walk with a buddy or a collaborator. And what my process is is I probably do this once every day or two, where I'll be nutting something out, Like at the moment, I'm struggling with how to structure the book, like i'd when I put in the book proposal to Penguin, I had a pretty clear idea, but as I'm probably about I'm thirty thousand words in now or thereabouts, I'm like, I don't know if this structure is working, and that's a creative problem to solve in my mind. So what I'll do is, and I've done a few walks where I've been trying to nut this out, is I will prompt the AI to think in a certain way, Like sometimes I'll prompt it to, you know, think like certain writers that have structured.

Their books in really interesting ways.

Their books in really interesting ways.

Sometimes I'll just prompt it to think like a fellow organizational psychologist.

Sometimes I'll just prompt it to think like a fellow organizational psychologist.

So sort of depending on what.

So sort of depending on what.

Persona I think is going to be most useful for my little brainstorm and I will on voice mode, and you know, for listeners that haven't used voice mode before, it's really easy to do if you just download the chat GPT app and then you press the little icon that looks like a sort of a sound wave kind of icon, and you just start talking and you have a conversation.

Persona I think is going to be most useful for my little brainstorm and I will on voice mode, and you know, for listeners that haven't used voice mode before, it's really easy to do if you just download the chat GPT app and then you press the little icon that looks like a sort of a sound wave kind of icon, and you just start talking and you have a conversation.

And I have.

And I have.

Found that really really helpful. I will have like a half hour long conversation as I walk around the streets of my local area just chatting, and I feel a bit stupid, but then I'm like, well, if people are seeing me chatting, they'll probably just think I'm talking to someone on the phone, So it's all good and that really helps me nut things out and play around with ideas. It's like I do like to do that with real people. And funnily enough, yesterday I texted a couple of mates who I really respect their thinking and I wanted to get and I'm like, hey, can we meet for a coffee? I just want to bounce around some ideas with you, and one of them I still haven't heard back from. So it's like the AI is always there and that's really handy.

Found that really really helpful. I will have like a half hour long conversation as I walk around the streets of my local area just chatting, and I feel a bit stupid, but then I'm like, well, if people are seeing me chatting, they'll probably just think I'm talking to someone on the phone, So it's all good and that really helps me nut things out and play around with ideas. It's like I do like to do that with real people. And funnily enough, yesterday I texted a couple of mates who I really respect their thinking and I wanted to get and I'm like, hey, can we meet for a coffee? I just want to bounce around some ideas with you, and one of them I still haven't heard back from. So it's like the AI is always there and that's really handy.

Very reliable and consistent and timely with their responses.

Very reliable and consistent and timely with their responses.

Yeah, exactly and told to.

Yeah, exactly and told to.

Me about the book you're writing, because it's interesting, like your focus. You've done so much in the space of work, what's this next book focusing on.

Me about the book you're writing, because it's interesting, like your focus. You've done so much in the space of work, what's this next book focusing on.

So something I found last year in twenty twenty four is that in I Reckon, almost every conversation I had with clients of Inventium, there was change, fatigue, there was exhaustion, there was burnout. There was a lot of retrenchments, where inevitably what happens after retrenchments, particularly large scale ones, is that the people that are left in the organization have to do quite a lot more work and that's really hard. And so I was hearing this in conversation every single week, and also for myself, I completely utterly hit burnout several times last year, and it felt like it was this universal problem and not one that was getting better, And so I became really interested in how could we overcome this.

So something I found last year in twenty twenty four is that in I Reckon, almost every conversation I had with clients of Inventium, there was change, fatigue, there was exhaustion, there was burnout. There was a lot of retrenchments, where inevitably what happens after retrenchments, particularly large scale ones, is that the people that are left in the organization have to do quite a lot more work and that's really hard. And so I was hearing this in conversation every single week, and also for myself, I completely utterly hit burnout several times last year, and it felt like it was this universal problem and not one that was getting better, And so I became really interested in how could we overcome this.

It felt like a.

It felt like a.

Chronic depletion epidemic, and I thought, what are the ways that we can do this? And the book is essentially about energy and overcoming this chronic depletion and obviously at its most extreme, burnout.

Chronic depletion epidemic, and I thought, what are the ways that we can do this? And the book is essentially about energy and overcoming this chronic depletion and obviously at its most extreme, burnout.

So that's what the book is all about.

So that's what the book is all about.

It's so interesting to me if I just think about your last couple of books, so time Wise, which is all about productivity and all the things you've learned from your amazing guests on how I work and your own insights into that whole space. And then if I think about health habit where you're thinking about, okay, what is it that makes feel healthy and well? And then like this next step into the space of what is it that like gives people energy and how do we navigate this burnout? And I'm almost like thinking about it going if you and tell me if I'm totally off base here, please Amani, because you're.

It's so interesting to me if I just think about your last couple of books, so time Wise, which is all about productivity and all the things you've learned from your amazing guests on how I work and your own insights into that whole space. And then if I think about health habit where you're thinking about, okay, what is it that makes feel healthy and well? And then like this next step into the space of what is it that like gives people energy and how do we navigate this burnout? And I'm almost like thinking about it going if you and tell me if I'm totally off base here, please Amani, because you're.

Like you might be like this is you're just butchering my work, but like, as I'm.

Like you might be like this is you're just butchering my work, but like, as I'm.

Reverse engineering it, I'm thinking about Okay, if we think about it as a pyramid, it's like your energy levels are those things that sustain you to do difficult things in the long term, like that feeling of energy that you get from work or the depletion like I think for anyone who's listened who's had kids, like I remember that feeling early days, I reckon I've only just started to get past and of the depletion you have when your kids are waking up every night, and like you're trying to juggle your full time job and your roll as a parent and all that stuff, the energy you need to be healthy, like to actually exercise to do and like we know they're all connected, right, Like exercise gives us energy and all those things, or eating healthy gives us the energy we need. But then all of that stuff enables us to be productive. As I'm just sounding this out, does that resonate with you in any way or you're like no, no, set all right down.

Reverse engineering it, I'm thinking about Okay, if we think about it as a pyramid, it's like your energy levels are those things that sustain you to do difficult things in the long term, like that feeling of energy that you get from work or the depletion like I think for anyone who's listened who's had kids, like I remember that feeling early days, I reckon I've only just started to get past and of the depletion you have when your kids are waking up every night, and like you're trying to juggle your full time job and your roll as a parent and all that stuff, the energy you need to be healthy, like to actually exercise to do and like we know they're all connected, right, Like exercise gives us energy and all those things, or eating healthy gives us the energy we need. But then all of that stuff enables us to be productive. As I'm just sounding this out, does that resonate with you in any way or you're like no, no, set all right down.

No, it does. It does.

No, it does. It does.

And for me, I'm obsessed with what I refer to was what is the minimum viable dose or the MVD, because I think so much of what is out there is just quite unattainable for a lot of people. It is just not feasible to spend an hour exercising every day like that is really hard, and particularly particularly when you've got young kids as well, Like I mean, how do you even leave the.

And for me, I'm obsessed with what I refer to was what is the minimum viable dose or the MVD, because I think so much of what is out there is just quite unattainable for a lot of people. It is just not feasible to spend an hour exercising every day like that is really hard, and particularly particularly when you've got young kids as well, Like I mean, how do you even leave the.

House, let alone naturally expend.

House, let alone naturally expend.

Energy get out of the house, Like this morning, I'll just tell you this morning, trying to leave the houses.

Energy get out of the house, Like this morning, I'll just tell you this morning, trying to leave the houses.

We got on late because studying my.

We got on late because studying my.

Daughter couldn't find a glasses. I'm like, I don't understand that this happens every single day. Every single day we can't find the glasses, and then we're just like all these juggles of things. I'm like, you get out of the house, you know, I've run a marathon, Like when would I get time to do an hour of exercise in addition to my however many hours.

Daughter couldn't find a glasses. I'm like, I don't understand that this happens every single day. Every single day we can't find the glasses, and then we're just like all these juggles of things. I'm like, you get out of the house, you know, I've run a marathon, Like when would I get time to do an hour of exercise in addition to my however many hours.

Of work you do and all the things.

Of work you do and all the things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I think about this like I try to when I'm writing, you know, I kind of I have a few different people in mind that are almost.

Yeah, So I think about this like I try to when I'm writing, you know, I kind of I have a few different people in mind that are almost.

Like the avatars.

Like the avatars.

Or you know, the icps, if you like to speak, marketing of who I'm writing for, and I think about their world and their life and anything that is going to take a lot of time to boost their energy.

Or you know, the icps, if you like to speak, marketing of who I'm writing for, and I think about their world and their life and anything that is going to take a lot of time to boost their energy.

I'm just like nah.

I'm just like nah.

And as I'm researching it, like I mean, I go, I go down so many dead ends where I'll you know, sort of get to the end of reading a few pieces of research and I'm like, oh, man, that intervention lasted for six weeks and that was an hour a day.

And as I'm researching it, like I mean, I go, I go down so many dead ends where I'll you know, sort of get to the end of reading a few pieces of research and I'm like, oh, man, that intervention lasted for six weeks and that was an hour a day.

That is not realistic. I can't write about that. So instead I'm like, where are.

That is not realistic. I can't write about that. So instead I'm like, where are.

Those things that will give us those quick bursts of energy? That are just really doable for the average person who is chronically depleted and presumably very very busy and time poor.

Those things that will give us those quick bursts of energy? That are just really doable for the average person who is chronically depleted and presumably very very busy and time poor.

Okay, So I want to dig into that for a sec because I love what you said about some of the things that we hear are just completely unattainable or unrealistic.

Okay, So I want to dig into that for a sec because I love what you said about some of the things that we hear are just completely unattainable or unrealistic.

And there's that trend.

And there's that trend.

I don't know if it's still going around, but it was definitely very present in like twenty twenty three, where the morning routine started to really ramp up and everyone's like, everyone's like, you have to do this morning routine and it will take you three hours, and you must meditate for fifty minutes, and you must have an ice plunge, and then you have to have three boiled eggs. If you don't have three, you didn't get enough protein. Like it's just so extreme, and I like, look at it, and the people who talk about morning routines like these like solopreneurs that are out there just being like, this is how you sell stuff and this is if you want a win, this is how you win every day. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't even.

I don't know if it's still going around, but it was definitely very present in like twenty twenty three, where the morning routine started to really ramp up and everyone's like, everyone's like, you have to do this morning routine and it will take you three hours, and you must meditate for fifty minutes, and you must have an ice plunge, and then you have to have three boiled eggs. If you don't have three, you didn't get enough protein. Like it's just so extreme, and I like, look at it, and the people who talk about morning routines like these like solopreneurs that are out there just being like, this is how you sell stuff and this is if you want a win, this is how you win every day. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't even.

They're man with no kids.

They're man with no kids.

They are they always are, But what are your thoughts on on some of those like common things we see out there around the morning routines. And I mean, for me, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm a morning person at all, Like I'm a sloth in the morning.

They are they always are, But what are your thoughts on on some of those like common things we see out there around the morning routines. And I mean, for me, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm a morning person at all, Like I'm a sloth in the morning.

I'm just like I'm dye. I just wake up. I'm like, I feel like someone's just hit me in the face. Like what are some of.

I'm just like I'm dye. I just wake up. I'm like, I feel like someone's just hit me in the face. Like what are some of.

Those things you see that are unattainable? And then what is that their minimum what did you call it? Minimum dose?

Those things you see that are unattainable? And then what is that their minimum what did you call it? Minimum dose?

Minimum viable dose? And these things?

Minimum viable dose? And these things?

Yeah, yeah, so I yeah, I mean morning routines that go on for hours. Really, they do irritate me because like who's got time for that?

Yeah, yeah, so I yeah, I mean morning routines that go on for hours. Really, they do irritate me because like who's got time for that?

You know, like, yeah, who's got time for that?

You know, like, yeah, who's got time for that?

Unless you are young and you have no kids, and you're like and they you know, they're typically it's cliche to say stereotyping to day, but they're generally men in their twenties and maybe in their thirties. And I look, I do like rituals, and what I like about rituals and also habit stacking, where we're kind of doing one thing and then learning to automatically associate that with doing the next thing, is it just reduces cognitive load. So I like mourning rituals from that perspect but I don't like ones that are unrealistic. So I find that a lot of people, because of the space that I'm in, I will often get asked, what's your morning ritual? And I don't have one that I do every single day, But I do have some rituals that I do most days because I think that that's attainable. So for me, I would most days, I would exercise for about thirty to forty minutes first thing in the morning.

Unless you are young and you have no kids, and you're like and they you know, they're typically it's cliche to say stereotyping to day, but they're generally men in their twenties and maybe in their thirties. And I look, I do like rituals, and what I like about rituals and also habit stacking, where we're kind of doing one thing and then learning to automatically associate that with doing the next thing, is it just reduces cognitive load. So I like mourning rituals from that perspect but I don't like ones that are unrealistic. So I find that a lot of people, because of the space that I'm in, I will often get asked, what's your morning ritual? And I don't have one that I do every single day, But I do have some rituals that I do most days because I think that that's attainable. So for me, I would most days, I would exercise for about thirty to forty minutes first thing in the morning.

And unlike you, Shelley, I'm very much a morning person.

And unlike you, Shelley, I'm very much a morning person.

Are you a lark?

Are you a lark?

Is that a lark?

Is that a lark?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Yes, that is my time.

Yes, that is my time.

Do you and you wake up? I've heard you talk about waking up at a certain time every day.

Do you and you wake up? I've heard you talk about waking up at a certain time every day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I will wake up at about six am every day, and I give like, if it's the weekend, I'm like, oh, it'd be nice to lay in bed a little bit more. I typically wouldn't do that past about six thirty, which I feel like sounds very rigid of me. But the reason why I do it is because if I do, say, sleep until eight am, and then I do that on Saturday and Sunday, and then Monday, I'm like, well, it's a workday, I'm going to wake up at six am. Again, I'm essentially giving myself what researchers call social jet lag, where it's like I've flown to New Zealand and then back again, and I've arrived home on Monday morning, and I'm like, oh, it's a two hour time difference. This is totally throwing out my body clock. But most of us think nothing of it because we're not traveling, we're just in our home. But the impact that that has on your energy and on your ability to think clearly and function at your best is really huge. And so for me, the idea of sleeping in an extra couple of hours feeling versus feeling really good throughout the day for those first few days of the week, it's like that's not a good trade off for me. Other people might be like, the sleeping is worth it to feel a bit crappy on Monday and Tuesday and kind of getting into the rhythm on Wednesday, But for me, it's not a good trade off. So that's why I typically wake within a half hour window.

So I will wake up at about six am every day, and I give like, if it's the weekend, I'm like, oh, it'd be nice to lay in bed a little bit more. I typically wouldn't do that past about six thirty, which I feel like sounds very rigid of me. But the reason why I do it is because if I do, say, sleep until eight am, and then I do that on Saturday and Sunday, and then Monday, I'm like, well, it's a workday, I'm going to wake up at six am. Again, I'm essentially giving myself what researchers call social jet lag, where it's like I've flown to New Zealand and then back again, and I've arrived home on Monday morning, and I'm like, oh, it's a two hour time difference. This is totally throwing out my body clock. But most of us think nothing of it because we're not traveling, we're just in our home. But the impact that that has on your energy and on your ability to think clearly and function at your best is really huge. And so for me, the idea of sleeping in an extra couple of hours feeling versus feeling really good throughout the day for those first few days of the week, it's like that's not a good trade off for me. Other people might be like, the sleeping is worth it to feel a bit crappy on Monday and Tuesday and kind of getting into the rhythm on Wednesday, But for me, it's not a good trade off. So that's why I typically wake within a half hour window.

I also think it's interesting like when people talk about the reason why they do a certain thing, like when I saw you post about it on LinkedIn, actually about the half an hour wake up and the impact that can have on your energy levels. And I know for myself, like I have a pretty consistent wake up time, manly because the kids wake me up at the same time every day. But I agree that if you know why you're doing something and you know the trade off, like you said, the trade off for you if you had an extra two hour sleep in on a Saturday, but on Monday you feel like crap, well, that is not a good I'm not happy with that decision. I'm not happy with the impact that has on my body and my ability to do the rest of my week.

I also think it's interesting like when people talk about the reason why they do a certain thing, like when I saw you post about it on LinkedIn, actually about the half an hour wake up and the impact that can have on your energy levels. And I know for myself, like I have a pretty consistent wake up time, manly because the kids wake me up at the same time every day. But I agree that if you know why you're doing something and you know the trade off, like you said, the trade off for you if you had an extra two hour sleep in on a Saturday, but on Monday you feel like crap, well, that is not a good I'm not happy with that decision. I'm not happy with the impact that has on my body and my ability to do the rest of my week.

I love knowing that why.

I love knowing that why.

And for me, like even just thinking about you talking about this minimum viable dose. One thing that's really helped me with my energy levels because I've never been a big exercise I like, I've always found it hard has just been doing a twenty minute thing on my app on my phone. I have the kick app and those twenty minutes or the like, I'm that's doable. I can commit to that consistently. What I can't commit to is like the like rigorous steps that take three hours that you're like, oh gosh, this is completely over the top, and what is the return on that? Whereas I feel the return on that twenty minutes consistently every day for an extended period rather than these like six weeks of like intensive stuff that you end up just dropping off because it's not sustainable.

And for me, like even just thinking about you talking about this minimum viable dose. One thing that's really helped me with my energy levels because I've never been a big exercise I like, I've always found it hard has just been doing a twenty minute thing on my app on my phone. I have the kick app and those twenty minutes or the like, I'm that's doable. I can commit to that consistently. What I can't commit to is like the like rigorous steps that take three hours that you're like, oh gosh, this is completely over the top, and what is the return on that? Whereas I feel the return on that twenty minutes consistently every day for an extended period rather than these like six weeks of like intensive stuff that you end up just dropping off because it's not sustainable.

Yeah, absolutely, something that helps me with that, because I also think the idea of doing something every day has its pro cons. Like in a sense, if you say to yourself, I exercise every day, then there's no decision to be made, like you can't argue with yourself, oh, you know, should I exercise today or not? Well, you do, but where that can go awry and psychologists call it the what the hell effect, where you're like, I'm going to exercise every day, or I'm going to eat healthy every day, or you know, avoid sugar or whatever your kind of goal is. And then let's say you're going really well, but on day six, the day is chaos. It turns to crap, and you know, you either I don't know if you're trying to quit sugar, you have all this chocolate at night, or you just don't have time to exercise and then you think, oh, what the hell, I may as well not exercise, or I may as well just you know, go back to chocolate. But what research has found is that if we can give ourselves hall passes, and you know, like people might have heard the term hall pass in relation to cheating on your partner in a marriage, but this is in the context of behavior behavior change. So research has found that if you give yourself a couple of hall passes a week, So if you're trying to do a daily habit like exercise every day, but say to yourself, I'm going to give myself two hall passes a week. So basically, if there are two days during the week where I just I just can't do it because you know, stuff happens, then that's okay and you can feel okay about that. And if we do that, if we adopt the hall past strategy, ironically, it makes us more likely to achieve our goals and also it makes us a lot more resilient in that we're able to bounce back from those setbacks.

Yeah, absolutely, something that helps me with that, because I also think the idea of doing something every day has its pro cons. Like in a sense, if you say to yourself, I exercise every day, then there's no decision to be made, like you can't argue with yourself, oh, you know, should I exercise today or not? Well, you do, but where that can go awry and psychologists call it the what the hell effect, where you're like, I'm going to exercise every day, or I'm going to eat healthy every day, or you know, avoid sugar or whatever your kind of goal is. And then let's say you're going really well, but on day six, the day is chaos. It turns to crap, and you know, you either I don't know if you're trying to quit sugar, you have all this chocolate at night, or you just don't have time to exercise and then you think, oh, what the hell, I may as well not exercise, or I may as well just you know, go back to chocolate. But what research has found is that if we can give ourselves hall passes, and you know, like people might have heard the term hall pass in relation to cheating on your partner in a marriage, but this is in the context of behavior behavior change. So research has found that if you give yourself a couple of hall passes a week, So if you're trying to do a daily habit like exercise every day, but say to yourself, I'm going to give myself two hall passes a week. So basically, if there are two days during the week where I just I just can't do it because you know, stuff happens, then that's okay and you can feel okay about that. And if we do that, if we adopt the hall past strategy, ironically, it makes us more likely to achieve our goals and also it makes us a lot more resilient in that we're able to bounce back from those setbacks.

If we do have a day.

If we do have a day.

Where we don't exercise, we're much more likely to get back on the wagon the following day. So hall passes, I very much recommend it as a good strategy to use if you're trying to create a new habit.

Where we don't exercise, we're much more likely to get back on the wagon the following day. So hall passes, I very much recommend it as a good strategy to use if you're trying to create a new habit.

And you're so right, it's like that throw in the towel if you like, I think I think about Easter right, We've just at the.

And you're so right, it's like that throw in the towel if you like, I think I think about Easter right, We've just at the.

Time this recording is the Easter long weekend just gone.

Time this recording is the Easter long weekend just gone.

And like if you're on a health if you're trying to not have too much sugar, but over the weekend you go on fifty Easter egg hunts with your family, You're like, the temptation is, well, I've just actually ruined three months worth of work, So I don't like throwing in the towel and the what the hell? I can definitely relate to those kind of sentiments. I want to know whether there's been things that you've done in that minimum viable dose that have been helpful. So you talked about getting up at the same time, what other habits have you kind of stacked up that some of our listeners who are time poor, who are very busy, and we're going to talk about busy in a sec what are things that help you?

And like if you're on a health if you're trying to not have too much sugar, but over the weekend you go on fifty Easter egg hunts with your family, You're like, the temptation is, well, I've just actually ruined three months worth of work, So I don't like throwing in the towel and the what the hell? I can definitely relate to those kind of sentiments. I want to know whether there's been things that you've done in that minimum viable dose that have been helpful. So you talked about getting up at the same time, what other habits have you kind of stacked up that some of our listeners who are time poor, who are very busy, and we're going to talk about busy in a sec what are things that help you?

Amanther, I find that state changes always help me a lot. I am at my computer, at my desk for a large part of days if I'm not out with clients or in podcast, udioor keynote speaking. But like, I spent so many hours at my desk, and if I am starting to lack in energy, one of the best things I found that helps is just changing my state. So changing my state might be as simple as standing up and stretching for a few minutes, And there's great research to show that that's a really effective way to improve energy. Like you don't even have to get your heart right up, just do a few stretches and sit back down again.

Amanther, I find that state changes always help me a lot. I am at my computer, at my desk for a large part of days if I'm not out with clients or in podcast, udioor keynote speaking. But like, I spent so many hours at my desk, and if I am starting to lack in energy, one of the best things I found that helps is just changing my state. So changing my state might be as simple as standing up and stretching for a few minutes, And there's great research to show that that's a really effective way to improve energy. Like you don't even have to get your heart right up, just do a few stretches and sit back down again.

I actually put.

I actually put.

Out a call on LinkedIn to go people, what do you do when you're running out of energy? And I've got some really interesting suggestions. And I love doing that because then I'll go away and hunt down or was it actually science to support what people are doing? And I remember Don Price, who I know has been on your show several times. He suggested splashing cold water on your face, Like, oh, that sounds really good, because I had been researching cold showers and what is the minimum amount of cold water immersion? Because like, there's no way I'm doing an ice bath, but I can have a cold shower for a few seconds at the end of a hot one, and I'm like, I wonder if cold water has a similar impact, And it turns out it does. And so that's another example of just a really really great but easy to do and quick to do state change where if you're feeling like your energy is waning, just go to the bathroom, splash some water on your face, cold water, and it will actually improve your energy, and you'll come back and you can sit at your desk and you will feel very different to how you did when you left your desk.

Out a call on LinkedIn to go people, what do you do when you're running out of energy? And I've got some really interesting suggestions. And I love doing that because then I'll go away and hunt down or was it actually science to support what people are doing? And I remember Don Price, who I know has been on your show several times. He suggested splashing cold water on your face, Like, oh, that sounds really good, because I had been researching cold showers and what is the minimum amount of cold water immersion? Because like, there's no way I'm doing an ice bath, but I can have a cold shower for a few seconds at the end of a hot one, and I'm like, I wonder if cold water has a similar impact, And it turns out it does. And so that's another example of just a really really great but easy to do and quick to do state change where if you're feeling like your energy is waning, just go to the bathroom, splash some water on your face, cold water, and it will actually improve your energy, and you'll come back and you can sit at your desk and you will feel very different to how you did when you left your desk.

I think when you're talking about the cold water, I can vividly remember my mom. She like, I'm one of five kids, and we would do these big family holidays and we would drive for a really long time to like Queensland from Newcastle and at the time be like a twelve hour plus trip with five kids, and I remember Mum in the driver's seat. We would get twenty minutes out of Newcastle, Lamantha like we're hardly on the road at all, and she would get a bottle of cold water and tip it over her head and like, and I would have been like early high school at this point, I'm like, we are in for a bad time, Like she's doing a state change twenty minutes into a.

I think when you're talking about the cold water, I can vividly remember my mom. She like, I'm one of five kids, and we would do these big family holidays and we would drive for a really long time to like Queensland from Newcastle and at the time be like a twelve hour plus trip with five kids, and I remember Mum in the driver's seat. We would get twenty minutes out of Newcastle, Lamantha like we're hardly on the road at all, and she would get a bottle of cold water and tip it over her head and like, and I would have been like early high school at this point, I'm like, we are in for a bad time, Like she's doing a state change twenty minutes into a.

Twelve hour drive. This is not good. This is not a good time, but I do.

Twelve hour drive. This is not good. This is not a good time, but I do.

It's funny how when you hear other people's strategies, it gives you these ideas. And that's partly what I would love listeners to take away from today is going okay, as you're hearing these strategies, Amantha's suggesting try some stuff this week because.

It's funny how when you hear other people's strategies, it gives you these ideas. And that's partly what I would love listeners to take away from today is going okay, as you're hearing these strategies, Amantha's suggesting try some stuff this week because.

You need to know it.

You need to know it.

Not every single thing will work for you, but some of this will, and going okay, what is my little strategy? Is it stretching in between? Is it standing up? Is it actually going outside for a bit? Or is it the cold I swore the water on the face. Do the something quick that can help test? What's going to give me that lift in energy?

Not every single thing will work for you, but some of this will, and going okay, what is my little strategy? Is it stretching in between? Is it standing up? Is it actually going outside for a bit? Or is it the cold I swore the water on the face. Do the something quick that can help test? What's going to give me that lift in energy?

I want it.

I want it.

This might seem like a silly question, but sometimes when we talk about this idea of energy, I just love if you could explain, like when you think about what does energy look like when we've got it and what does.

This might seem like a silly question, but sometimes when we talk about this idea of energy, I just love if you could explain, like when you think about what does energy look like when we've got it and what does.

It look like when we don't have it?

It look like when we don't have it?

Because I think it can be like this ethereal concept, what does energy mean to you when we have it?

Because I think it can be like this ethereal concept, what does energy mean to you when we have it?

And when we don't.

And when we don't.

Well.

Well.

I would say it's easy to think about when we don't have energy, because I think there are several times during someone's typical day where they're feeling it really common experience to wake up and.

I would say it's easy to think about when we don't have energy, because I think there are several times during someone's typical day where they're feeling it really common experience to wake up and.

Have been in.

Have been in.

Bed for eight hours, like that's how much sleep we're meant to get, right, but we wake up and we're like, I feel like I haven't slept, I feel like my sleep was not of good quality, and I feel exhausted, and I don't feel.

Bed for eight hours, like that's how much sleep we're meant to get, right, but we wake up and we're like, I feel like I haven't slept, I feel like my sleep was not of good quality, and I feel exhausted, and I don't feel.

Ready to start the day.

Ready to start the day.

Sleep researchers call it sleep inertia. It's very very common. I think that's the first point where people lack the energy. I think that the second common point, and like, and tell me if you can relate to this is like it's nine o'clock or thereabouts, time to start the workday, and you're just like, I just I don't feel motivated. I don't know how I'm going to get into flow. I just I feel really unfocused. That's another point where energy is really low. Typically, then you know, as we head towards lunch, generally for a lot of people, the sort of the nine to twelve period not too bad. Sometimes we are feeling a little bit distractable in that mid morning time where we go get a coffee or take a little break. But then after lunch is when another big energy are energy sort of like you know, exhaustion milestone I guess happens. Psychologists call it the post lunch dip. For the rest of us, it's like it's that time at about two or three in the afternoon when you're your lunch choices have potentially led to a blood glucose crash, and you're feeling pretty ordinary and you're heading for some sort of sugary snack.

Sleep researchers call it sleep inertia. It's very very common. I think that's the first point where people lack the energy. I think that the second common point, and like, and tell me if you can relate to this is like it's nine o'clock or thereabouts, time to start the workday, and you're just like, I just I don't feel motivated. I don't know how I'm going to get into flow. I just I feel really unfocused. That's another point where energy is really low. Typically, then you know, as we head towards lunch, generally for a lot of people, the sort of the nine to twelve period not too bad. Sometimes we are feeling a little bit distractable in that mid morning time where we go get a coffee or take a little break. But then after lunch is when another big energy are energy sort of like you know, exhaustion milestone I guess happens. Psychologists call it the post lunch dip. For the rest of us, it's like it's that time at about two or three in the afternoon when you're your lunch choices have potentially led to a blood glucose crash, and you're feeling pretty ordinary and you're heading for some sort of sugary snack.

To give you a short lived boost of energy.

To give you a short lived boost of energy.

You're probably not thinking at your best in the afternoon, and then of course at the end of the day there's that exhaustion and particularly you know.

You're probably not thinking at your best in the afternoon, and then of course at the end of the day there's that exhaustion and particularly you know.

If you've got things to do, if you've got.

If you've got things to do, if you've got.

Kids to keep alive and feed and bathe and all that sort of stuff, and you're just like, ah, I can't I don't know the energy for this. Or maybe you're someone that has plans at night and you think to yourself, I really wish I was having a night in tonight instead. It's another really common source of just lacking energy. And then even later on when the day is over and if you are a parent, the kids are in bed and you just find yourself glued to social media because that is all your brain can handle, that sort of passive distraction. Like to me, those are the points that I hear again and again that that's where we're feeling depleted on a.

Kids to keep alive and feed and bathe and all that sort of stuff, and you're just like, ah, I can't I don't know the energy for this. Or maybe you're someone that has plans at night and you think to yourself, I really wish I was having a night in tonight instead. It's another really common source of just lacking energy. And then even later on when the day is over and if you are a parent, the kids are in bed and you just find yourself glued to social media because that is all your brain can handle, that sort of passive distraction. Like to me, those are the points that I hear again and again that that's where we're feeling depleted on a.

Typical day, even just hearing you say the social media like kind of like the distracted scrolling. I find I get into that habit when my energy is low, where I'll just like mindlessly scroll, And like last night I found myself doing that. I was like, really wrecked. It's just been it like hectic couple of weeks, and I was like, and I don't find I often do that at night, Like I was just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, And then I found the weird thing was I was so tired, but then I could not go to sleep for so long, and I'm I like, it's weird. The going back to this counterintuitive thing about energy. You can be really depleted and have low energy and do and like do these mindless things, but then they actually triggered the reverse impact where you can't then get to sleep or you don't have that deep What are your thoughts on the link between those kind of activities that we're doing to distract ourselves and actually how they exacerbate the exact thing we're trying to avoid.

Typical day, even just hearing you say the social media like kind of like the distracted scrolling. I find I get into that habit when my energy is low, where I'll just like mindlessly scroll, And like last night I found myself doing that. I was like, really wrecked. It's just been it like hectic couple of weeks, and I was like, and I don't find I often do that at night, Like I was just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, And then I found the weird thing was I was so tired, but then I could not go to sleep for so long, and I'm I like, it's weird. The going back to this counterintuitive thing about energy. You can be really depleted and have low energy and do and like do these mindless things, but then they actually triggered the reverse impact where you can't then get to sleep or you don't have that deep What are your thoughts on the link between those kind of activities that we're doing to distract ourselves and actually how they exacerbate the exact thing we're trying to avoid.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, so.

Scientists would call this tired but wired, and it's really common where you're feeling exhausted but your brain is feeling wired.

Scientists would call this tired but wired, and it's really common where you're feeling exhausted but your brain is feeling wired.

You know.

You know.

I find like screens are bad for this. I think most of us now know that the blue light that is emitted from our phones and screens suppresses melatonin, which is the hormone that we.

I find like screens are bad for this. I think most of us now know that the blue light that is emitted from our phones and screens suppresses melatonin, which is the hormone that we.

Need to actually get to sleep.

Need to actually get to sleep.

And so you know, a good rule is to get off your screen at least an hour before the time where.

And so you know, a good rule is to get off your screen at least an hour before the time where.

You would like your body to be asleep. So that is really helpful.

You would like your body to be asleep. So that is really helpful.

But I think, you know, like for me in my own life, I just know I need that hour before bed where I'm just doing very passive, relaxing things. I'm sure I would be well served to start a meditation habit, but it is just like it is still beyond me. I feel like I do other things that are meditative. But you know, certainly a lot of friends of mine, a lot of people that I've interviewed on how I work, so many of them have some sort of a meditation habit, and it is a really great way to calm down your brain and slow down your heart rate.

But I think, you know, like for me in my own life, I just know I need that hour before bed where I'm just doing very passive, relaxing things. I'm sure I would be well served to start a meditation habit, but it is just like it is still beyond me. I feel like I do other things that are meditative. But you know, certainly a lot of friends of mine, a lot of people that I've interviewed on how I work, so many of them have some sort of a meditation habit, and it is a really great way to calm down your brain and slow down your heart rate.

I don't know for me, like I'm.

I don't know for me, like I'm.

An AURA ring wearer, so I you know, tracking various you know, various markers. And I know for me, like on those nights where I don't wind down, or maybe I've gone out and it's been like a really stimulating conversation with friends, and I come home like feeling really wired, but in a positive emotion way, as opposed to we've just been in a you know, in a doomscroll loop on TikTok or Instagram, and I will look at my AURA score the next day and it's like, oh, your resting heart rate was up when you went to bed.

An AURA ring wearer, so I you know, tracking various you know, various markers. And I know for me, like on those nights where I don't wind down, or maybe I've gone out and it's been like a really stimulating conversation with friends, and I come home like feeling really wired, but in a positive emotion way, as opposed to we've just been in a you know, in a doomscroll loop on TikTok or Instagram, and I will look at my AURA score the next day and it's like, oh, your resting heart rate was up when you went to bed.

So I very much.

So I very much.

Notice it in the quality of my sleep because it'll affect the quality of my sleep when I'm.

Notice it in the quality of my sleep because it'll affect the quality of my sleep when I'm.

You know, tracking it.

You know, tracking it.

But I always try to build it in an hour before bed where I'm just doing something really passive, like reading fiction.

But I always try to build it in an hour before bed where I'm just doing something really passive, like reading fiction.

That's a really.

That's a really.

Good discipline too, Like I the hour before bed, I.

Good discipline too, Like I the hour before bed, I.

Reckon that feels that feels long for me, Like I'm.

Reckon that feels that feels long for me, Like I'm.

Like, but also I read.

Like, but also I read.

All my books on my phone, so.

All my books on my phone, so.

I'm a massive fiction reader, but I have Kindle on my phone, and so when I'm going to bed this, I know, this is so bad, Like I know everything in me is like it.

I'm a massive fiction reader, but I have Kindle on my phone, and so when I'm going to bed this, I know, this is so bad, Like I know everything in me is like it.

Is the worst.

Is the worst.

But it's so practical, Like I'm like, I don't have to like buy the book. I just have it on my phone whenever I want it, and I would sit, you know, for an hour every night, just like in bed with my phone up to my face, just reading. And I'm I'm always amazed that i still wake up every morning.

But it's so practical, Like I'm like, I don't have to like buy the book. I just have it on my phone whenever I want it, and I would sit, you know, for an hour every night, just like in bed with my phone up to my face, just reading. And I'm I'm always amazed that i still wake up every morning.

I'm so tired.

I'm so tired.

Oh my god, I really I hate that for you. Shelly. Do you own an actual kindle?

Oh my god, I really I hate that for you. Shelly. Do you own an actual kindle?

No? No, would that be better?

No? No, would that be better?

I think you need to get an actual kindle.

I think you need to get an actual kindle.

Yeah. Yeah, So from most of the research that I'm across, the light on the kindle, particularly if you're in dark mode on the kindle, as i am, so I would mostly read my kindle in bed at night, but I'd never read my phone at night, just because the light that it's emitting is very different. One light is telling you to stay awake, another is not.

Yeah. Yeah, So from most of the research that I'm across, the light on the kindle, particularly if you're in dark mode on the kindle, as i am, so I would mostly read my kindle in bed at night, but I'd never read my phone at night, just because the light that it's emitting is very different. One light is telling you to stay awake, another is not.

Is your phone out of your bedroom?

Is your phone out of your bedroom?

Yeah it is?

Yeah it is?

Yeah, yeah, for years it charges in the corridor. So we've got a little charging station, there's no phones allowed in the bedroom.

Yeah, yeah, for years it charges in the corridor. So we've got a little charging station, there's no phones allowed in the bedroom.

That again, this is a discipline, And it's really interesting.

That again, this is a discipline, And it's really interesting.

I mean thinking about this word discipline a lot lately because we've been working with teams, some really high performing teams who discipline is a really import and part of how they perform well. And then just thinking about you going, okay, I've got this hour before bed.

I mean thinking about this word discipline a lot lately because we've been working with teams, some really high performing teams who discipline is a really import and part of how they perform well. And then just thinking about you going, okay, I've got this hour before bed.

I'm like, oh, that's a long time.

I'm like, oh, that's a long time.

And then and then the phone's in the corridor again, another discipline that you've been doing for years, and then waking up within half an hour. But these are like they're simple, but they're not easy, Like it is a full habit change, Like I'm thinking about how I and I'm going to do. I actually haven't getting to publicly commit to getting a kindle and getting off my phone because I know when I've got my phone right here as I'm sleeping, I can I just like beate myself.

And then and then the phone's in the corridor again, another discipline that you've been doing for years, and then waking up within half an hour. But these are like they're simple, but they're not easy, Like it is a full habit change, Like I'm thinking about how I and I'm going to do. I actually haven't getting to publicly commit to getting a kindle and getting off my phone because I know when I've got my phone right here as I'm sleeping, I can I just like beate myself.

But I'm not. I haven't made any changes.

But I'm not. I haven't made any changes.

Well, that's the thing I mean, because you talk about discipline, but for me, because I've been doing these things for so long years, there's no discipline involved. It's more it feels weird when I don't do those things like very occasionally I will sleep with my phone next to me, like, for example, if my daughter is at a sleepover and I feel an obligation to just have my phone not on silence, but just just in case, because it would be a crappy experience for the other parents if they needed to get hold of me, and they never do, Like it's kind of irrational, but I feel like it's a responsible thing to do. Or very occasionally where I've got a really early morning and i want double alarm, so I've got an old school alarm clock that I you know that there's no scrolling on that alarm clock, and that is there to help me tell the time and wake me up if I need to wake up at a certain time. But sometimes I'll bring the phone in just for double alarm in case something goes wrong with the power. But otherwise they just take no effort because there are things that I've been doing forever, like it really doesn't take a lot of effort to wake within a half hour window, because my body finds it hard not to wake within that window because I've been doing it for so long, and it just feels really unnatural and strange to sleep with my phone in my bed, like it's you know, it's it's like I don't know, as if I'm sleeping with the world's brightest TV.

Well, that's the thing I mean, because you talk about discipline, but for me, because I've been doing these things for so long years, there's no discipline involved. It's more it feels weird when I don't do those things like very occasionally I will sleep with my phone next to me, like, for example, if my daughter is at a sleepover and I feel an obligation to just have my phone not on silence, but just just in case, because it would be a crappy experience for the other parents if they needed to get hold of me, and they never do, Like it's kind of irrational, but I feel like it's a responsible thing to do. Or very occasionally where I've got a really early morning and i want double alarm, so I've got an old school alarm clock that I you know that there's no scrolling on that alarm clock, and that is there to help me tell the time and wake me up if I need to wake up at a certain time. But sometimes I'll bring the phone in just for double alarm in case something goes wrong with the power. But otherwise they just take no effort because there are things that I've been doing forever, like it really doesn't take a lot of effort to wake within a half hour window, because my body finds it hard not to wake within that window because I've been doing it for so long, and it just feels really unnatural and strange to sleep with my phone in my bed, like it's you know, it's it's like I don't know, as if I'm sleeping with the world's brightest TV.

Right next to me, like that just that would feel weird, right.

Right next to me, like that just that would feel weird, right.

So I think the more you do it, the less discipline it requires.

So I think the more you do it, the less discipline it requires.

That's a really good call out.

That's a really good call out.

Actually, as something as your first kicking off a new habit, it will feel like a discipline, but or over time it just feels normal. And I love that because I'm like thinking about that, going Okay, cool, That's what I need some of those things in my life.

Actually, as something as your first kicking off a new habit, it will feel like a discipline, but or over time it just feels normal. And I love that because I'm like thinking about that, going Okay, cool, That's what I need some of those things in my life.

I want to take. I want to take a quick break.

I want to take. I want to take a quick break.

When we come back, I want to ask you about this idea of busy because I think one thing that you do really well is you're thinking about how do we be productive and effective, and often that runs counter to busy culture.

When we come back, I want to ask you about this idea of busy because I think one thing that you do really well is you're thinking about how do we be productive and effective, and often that runs counter to busy culture.

So when we come back, we'll dig into that.

So when we come back, we'll dig into that.

So, Amantha, one thing that I feel like everyone has been complaining all about our clients so we work with have been complaining about is everyone's busy, but they're not doing the we don't think they're doing the right world work, or we're not working on the highest value things. We're still not achieving our strategy. And I think this very much links into productivity and how we be productive versus busy. Can you talk to us about how we can shift our mindset from being always on the hustle the busyness versus working on what is really important?

So, Amantha, one thing that I feel like everyone has been complaining all about our clients so we work with have been complaining about is everyone's busy, but they're not doing the we don't think they're doing the right world work, or we're not working on the highest value things. We're still not achieving our strategy. And I think this very much links into productivity and how we be productive versus busy. Can you talk to us about how we can shift our mindset from being always on the hustle the busyness versus working on what is really important?

Wow.

Wow.

A new I guess ritual that I have started recently is at the start of every month. And this is going to sound really simple, but it has helped me so much. Is that the start of every month, I will think what are the big chunks of work that I want to do?

A new I guess ritual that I have started recently is at the start of every month. And this is going to sound really simple, but it has helped me so much. Is that the start of every month, I will think what are the big chunks of work that I want to do?

So really, what are my.

So really, what are my.

Big deep work projects that I'm working on? And right now the manuscripts are given. That is an everyday task that doesn't require thinking. It's just a non negotiable, even on weekends. It's literally every single day I write. But when it comes to my inventing and work, I think about what are the things that are going to get me closer to my goals to the company goals, to the things that are going to make an impact. And I'll typically write down it's typically about four or five things, like it might be plan a launch strategy for this new product, or you know, finish developing this program, about blah. So things that are quite meety, they're probably going to be about, you know, two days worth of deep work each, let's say thereabouts, and I will have that.

Big deep work projects that I'm working on? And right now the manuscripts are given. That is an everyday task that doesn't require thinking. It's just a non negotiable, even on weekends. It's literally every single day I write. But when it comes to my inventing and work, I think about what are the things that are going to get me closer to my goals to the company goals, to the things that are going to make an impact. And I'll typically write down it's typically about four or five things, like it might be plan a launch strategy for this new product, or you know, finish developing this program, about blah. So things that are quite meety, they're probably going to be about, you know, two days worth of deep work each, let's say thereabouts, and I will have that.

I will pin that as a note.

I will pin that as a note.

I use Apple notes, although I'm sort of between notion and Apple notes at the moment, so just my note take is a little bit of a mess right now. And for the most part, I will timebox, so I'll make meetings with myself to do the things that are important.