I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that if you're a fan of this podcast, you're probably quite ambitious, especially careerize. But what happens when the work goes away, whether it's something like the pandemic, unexpected change in your personal life, or maybe time to retire. Thankfully, my favorite former boss, Nigel Marsh, has returned to How I Work to answer those questions. He started thinking about this when he was made redundant at forty years old, and he hasn't stopped thinking about it since, even after returning to work as a very successful corporate CEO and then going on to become a best selling author, ted speaker and podcaster. So how did Nigel deliberately move through what he describes as life's three trimesters of learn, earn and return? And how as he approaches sixty is he thinking of using his third trimester. My name is doctor amanthe Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is How I Work, a show about how to help you do your best work. If you listen to Nigel the last time he was on How I Work about three years ago, you'll know that he is a big proponent of not giving advice because there is no guarantee that because something works for him, it will work for anyone else. But when I hit record for this interview, Nigel told me that he had a confession to make.

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that if you're a fan of this podcast, you're probably quite ambitious, especially careerize. But what happens when the work goes away, whether it's something like the pandemic, unexpected change in your personal life, or maybe time to retire. Thankfully, my favorite former boss, Nigel Marsh, has returned to How I Work to answer those questions. He started thinking about this when he was made redundant at forty years old, and he hasn't stopped thinking about it since, even after returning to work as a very successful corporate CEO and then going on to become a best selling author, ted speaker and podcaster. So how did Nigel deliberately move through what he describes as life's three trimesters of learn, earn and return? And how as he approaches sixty is he thinking of using his third trimester. My name is doctor amanthe Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is How I Work, a show about how to help you do your best work. If you listen to Nigel the last time he was on How I Work about three years ago, you'll know that he is a big proponent of not giving advice because there is no guarantee that because something works for him, it will work for anyone else. But when I hit record for this interview, Nigel told me that he had a confession to make.

I feel really embarrassed and conflicted about this. But it stems from three things. My friend Rick saying that Nigel, actually you do give advice. You do like advice, and you should give advice. And I thought, oh, oh, maybe maybe I do. And then the head master of a school called Reddham. None of my kids went to read them, and I don't know anyone who went to read them, and I don't know the head master, but in his recent letter to the class, the graduating class of twenty twenty two and printed in the whatever it is, the Leaver's annual Report, he ended with I want to end with a passage from Nigel Marsh's book that really resonated me, and he quotes a paragraph from my book as advice to the children that are leaving year twelve. And then the third thing is a letter I've got on my phone here from a bloke in Oregon who wrote to me saying, thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Your books have given me hope when I thought I had none. Please keep on writing anyway. So all of that is I've come to an uncomfortable inflection point where where I feel I can give advice. And I know for you doesn't do anything yet, anything but give advice. But for me, that's a massive uncomfortable shift, and I I'll only do it if I'm asked. I just don't feel comfortable giving advice. I like telling stories in my story, and if people find something useful from that, then I'm happy. But actually I gave a talk at a library last night and all these people came up and said lovely things, and actually, Nigel, we want you to tell us that. So I suppose when I came on your fabulous podcast last time, I was a bit of a dick and just said, you know, giving advice is stupid and blah blah blah, and you go, well, or many people give stupid advice and many people shouldn't be listened to. But actually, Rick, my friend is right. I mean I am comfortable to somebody. I like you, I respect like you. If you ask me, and only if you ask me, I'm not going to burst into your office or your home and give you advice. And I think there's a key insight here that will enable me in forums like this or other forums to give advice is to shout out loud upfront that there isn't one answer for one person for everybody. So that unlocks the key for me to be able to have these types of conversations.

I feel really embarrassed and conflicted about this. But it stems from three things. My friend Rick saying that Nigel, actually you do give advice. You do like advice, and you should give advice. And I thought, oh, oh, maybe maybe I do. And then the head master of a school called Reddham. None of my kids went to read them, and I don't know anyone who went to read them, and I don't know the head master, but in his recent letter to the class, the graduating class of twenty twenty two and printed in the whatever it is, the Leaver's annual Report, he ended with I want to end with a passage from Nigel Marsh's book that really resonated me, and he quotes a paragraph from my book as advice to the children that are leaving year twelve. And then the third thing is a letter I've got on my phone here from a bloke in Oregon who wrote to me saying, thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Your books have given me hope when I thought I had none. Please keep on writing anyway. So all of that is I've come to an uncomfortable inflection point where where I feel I can give advice. And I know for you doesn't do anything yet, anything but give advice. But for me, that's a massive uncomfortable shift, and I I'll only do it if I'm asked. I just don't feel comfortable giving advice. I like telling stories in my story, and if people find something useful from that, then I'm happy. But actually I gave a talk at a library last night and all these people came up and said lovely things, and actually, Nigel, we want you to tell us that. So I suppose when I came on your fabulous podcast last time, I was a bit of a dick and just said, you know, giving advice is stupid and blah blah blah, and you go, well, or many people give stupid advice and many people shouldn't be listened to. But actually, Rick, my friend is right. I mean I am comfortable to somebody. I like you, I respect like you. If you ask me, and only if you ask me, I'm not going to burst into your office or your home and give you advice. And I think there's a key insight here that will enable me in forums like this or other forums to give advice is to shout out loud upfront that there isn't one answer for one person for everybody. So that unlocks the key for me to be able to have these types of conversations.

And that is a big sture for you. Yet, you do a lot of executive coaching in your work life, and I imagine a lot of that does involve imparting advice or let's say, advice in inverted commas stories that people will learn from. I'd love to know what are some of the more common things that you find and yourself explaining or advising people around.

And that is a big sture for you. Yet, you do a lot of executive coaching in your work life, and I imagine a lot of that does involve imparting advice or let's say, advice in inverted commas stories that people will learn from. I'd love to know what are some of the more common things that you find and yourself explaining or advising people around.

So that's a really good question of Antheon. Is the the one on one coaching that I do that I take incredibly seriously. I mean, that's a very special relationship. It's mainly based around the work of the lady who's my next episode on five of My Life, Nancy Klin, And it's based around deep listening. So it isn't actually I mean, it's easy to poke fun at this, it isn't actually giving advice it's asking proper questions and just listening, because I deeply believe that people have their own answers. But you can pose, you know, you can say what's getting in your way? What limiting assumptions might you have. There's there's a host of really really really proper, thoughtful, open questions that you can ask repeatedly and not interrupt people, and they develop the answers in front of you. I don't go in saying do you know what I reckon? You should do X, Y and Z. But given my confession about I give advice, it is I'd probably say two things, as in most common to say, and one is the main thing is keeping the main thing the main thing, and that's life transformative. So you know, I speak to people who there's obviously one big drama in their life that needs to be sorted out before anything out, Like I don't know, they're in the wrong job, they're in the wrong marriage, whatever it might be. And then they come in and they're crapping on about a whole host of other things, and you go, what you know? I don't say, but you go and is that the biggest It's easier sometimes not sometimes most of the time to attend to things that aren't the real thing. It's like people who are drinking problems. It's they do a whole host of stuff other than give up drinking, or people are flat. You go, the last thing I'd actually want to do is eat less, And you go, well, what maybe for the very thing that you should be doing? So you know, the main thing is keeping the main thing the main thing. The second thing comes to the consultancy I've run called West eighty second, where the mantra that I wrote, which I believe applies to life and applies to business, is clarity, alignment momentum. And most people in business and in life like to start with momentum because it's busy and you're doing things and you know that just get going. And you go, well, actually, how about we think about and this comes down to my work in work life balance. I get sent all around the world to talk about this where and some of the jokey conversations that you and I have and some of the other people who work in the space where I take the piss. But I've changed today, I promised you I've changed today. All these efficiency experts who want to turn you into a sodding corporate athlete. Drive me up the wall. Only drive me up the wall if you haven't done the clarity and alignment piece. I really like the work that you Andrew May Adam Grant, blah blah blah, all these wonderful lapture of experts do if you've done the clarity in alignment. So being ever more efficient if you haven't worked out what you want to be and how you want to live is actually destructive. You just might do even more of the wrong thing, even more efficiently.

So that's a really good question of Antheon. Is the the one on one coaching that I do that I take incredibly seriously. I mean, that's a very special relationship. It's mainly based around the work of the lady who's my next episode on five of My Life, Nancy Klin, And it's based around deep listening. So it isn't actually I mean, it's easy to poke fun at this, it isn't actually giving advice it's asking proper questions and just listening, because I deeply believe that people have their own answers. But you can pose, you know, you can say what's getting in your way? What limiting assumptions might you have. There's there's a host of really really really proper, thoughtful, open questions that you can ask repeatedly and not interrupt people, and they develop the answers in front of you. I don't go in saying do you know what I reckon? You should do X, Y and Z. But given my confession about I give advice, it is I'd probably say two things, as in most common to say, and one is the main thing is keeping the main thing the main thing, and that's life transformative. So you know, I speak to people who there's obviously one big drama in their life that needs to be sorted out before anything out, Like I don't know, they're in the wrong job, they're in the wrong marriage, whatever it might be. And then they come in and they're crapping on about a whole host of other things, and you go, what you know? I don't say, but you go and is that the biggest It's easier sometimes not sometimes most of the time to attend to things that aren't the real thing. It's like people who are drinking problems. It's they do a whole host of stuff other than give up drinking, or people are flat. You go, the last thing I'd actually want to do is eat less, And you go, well, what maybe for the very thing that you should be doing? So you know, the main thing is keeping the main thing the main thing. The second thing comes to the consultancy I've run called West eighty second, where the mantra that I wrote, which I believe applies to life and applies to business, is clarity, alignment momentum. And most people in business and in life like to start with momentum because it's busy and you're doing things and you know that just get going. And you go, well, actually, how about we think about and this comes down to my work in work life balance. I get sent all around the world to talk about this where and some of the jokey conversations that you and I have and some of the other people who work in the space where I take the piss. But I've changed today, I promised you I've changed today. All these efficiency experts who want to turn you into a sodding corporate athlete. Drive me up the wall. Only drive me up the wall if you haven't done the clarity and alignment piece. I really like the work that you Andrew May Adam Grant, blah blah blah, all these wonderful lapture of experts do if you've done the clarity in alignment. So being ever more efficient if you haven't worked out what you want to be and how you want to live is actually destructive. You just might do even more of the wrong thing, even more efficiently.

So how do you get clarity?

So how do you get clarity?

Like?

Like?

What are some questions that you ask people to help them get to that point of clarity?

What are some questions that you ask people to help them get to that point of clarity?

Just pretend I were to coach you, I'd start with homework, So I would ask you very open, very open questions. Where could you write down you know, just where you're at, Describe where you're at, and tell me a bit about your hopes and dreams and what you feel the most important issues are on your mind, Just general stuff. Don't you say, oh how much a page? No, no, no, no, just just whatever whatever strikes you. And then you'll send me something and just pretend it's twenty five pages about how you hate your boyfriend. And I didn't ask you about your boyfriend. You've just written twenty five pages about your boody boyfriend. Someone else could write back, and there's one page. I want to be richer? Yeah, or I hate my boss? Is you learn so much without it? Is to absolutely hold myself to the principle of having no assumptions. So I could look at you and go I could tell I could tell you what your issues are just from looking at you on the screen. You go, no, no, you can't, Nigel, let her talk, Let her talk. When she finishes, don't say anything. She'll talk again. And when she finishes and she doesn't say anything, just prompt her and say, tell me more about that. Amant to the thing about you're not being fully satisfied about your career? What does and then you talk again? You talk again, you talk, don't have any Oh gosh, I can't wait to come in with my advice about the main thing. No, no, no, no no. I might have a client who's completely clear on what the main thing is, totally clear, but they've got another problem. So I just it's a loving act of being fully present and engaging and not knowing the answer. I never know the answer but not knowing where I'm going to go next until I feel I've fully fully drawn out of whoever it is I'm consulting or coaching, where they are currently at and what is important to them?

Just pretend I were to coach you, I'd start with homework, So I would ask you very open, very open questions. Where could you write down you know, just where you're at, Describe where you're at, and tell me a bit about your hopes and dreams and what you feel the most important issues are on your mind, Just general stuff. Don't you say, oh how much a page? No, no, no, no, just just whatever whatever strikes you. And then you'll send me something and just pretend it's twenty five pages about how you hate your boyfriend. And I didn't ask you about your boyfriend. You've just written twenty five pages about your boody boyfriend. Someone else could write back, and there's one page. I want to be richer? Yeah, or I hate my boss? Is you learn so much without it? Is to absolutely hold myself to the principle of having no assumptions. So I could look at you and go I could tell I could tell you what your issues are just from looking at you on the screen. You go, no, no, you can't, Nigel, let her talk, Let her talk. When she finishes, don't say anything. She'll talk again. And when she finishes and she doesn't say anything, just prompt her and say, tell me more about that. Amant to the thing about you're not being fully satisfied about your career? What does and then you talk again? You talk again, you talk, don't have any Oh gosh, I can't wait to come in with my advice about the main thing. No, no, no, no no. I might have a client who's completely clear on what the main thing is, totally clear, but they've got another problem. So I just it's a loving act of being fully present and engaging and not knowing the answer. I never know the answer but not knowing where I'm going to go next until I feel I've fully fully drawn out of whoever it is I'm consulting or coaching, where they are currently at and what is important to them?

What are some other questions that you use to tease.

What are some other questions that you use to tease.

That at whether they sort of build from the first response? Does that? Does that make sense? So I haven't got set ones. So if you just pretend you're a medium sized business owner and you say it just really, We've got a great product and everything, but it's just the operations. I can't get the supply chain to work. Or everyone loves our product and we've got lots of sales, but I just can't make it profitable. And then I dig deeper on the thing that they have raised, and the question again, I recommend Nancy Clein's work and listen to the episode next week. Is that the I mean, but you're you're an expert. This I'm an amateur, you're an expert. It is the wonderful power of saying tell me more. And if you could actually even discipline yourself not to use the word about, So don't say why, and don't say tell me more about. And it's incredibly hard amanth. But but you, you know, you crap on about oh my gosh, I'm really unhappy with my boyfriend, and then you finish and tell me more. Now, obviously I'm asking you about your boyfriend because that's what you've just been talking about. But I don't say, tell me more about your boyfriend. I say, tell me more, and then you probably will. You will. Actually, Yeah, when I say I'm really annoyed about what he does, what I mean I'm really really annoyed about on a Tuesday, when he and you go deeper and deeper and deeper on the actual thing. If I keep on, it's cooled. I mean, you've probably got the proper phrase for it. But generative listening, generative attention. So you so there isn't. It's against my philosophy to have a set bunch of questions, I mean, beyond really obvious ones like tell me about yourself or what's on your mind, or how's it going, or you know, what's been working well recently what's been working less well? I shouldn't be giving you this advice.

That at whether they sort of build from the first response? Does that? Does that make sense? So I haven't got set ones. So if you just pretend you're a medium sized business owner and you say it just really, We've got a great product and everything, but it's just the operations. I can't get the supply chain to work. Or everyone loves our product and we've got lots of sales, but I just can't make it profitable. And then I dig deeper on the thing that they have raised, and the question again, I recommend Nancy Clein's work and listen to the episode next week. Is that the I mean, but you're you're an expert. This I'm an amateur, you're an expert. It is the wonderful power of saying tell me more. And if you could actually even discipline yourself not to use the word about, So don't say why, and don't say tell me more about. And it's incredibly hard amanth. But but you, you know, you crap on about oh my gosh, I'm really unhappy with my boyfriend, and then you finish and tell me more. Now, obviously I'm asking you about your boyfriend because that's what you've just been talking about. But I don't say, tell me more about your boyfriend. I say, tell me more, and then you probably will. You will. Actually, Yeah, when I say I'm really annoyed about what he does, what I mean I'm really really annoyed about on a Tuesday, when he and you go deeper and deeper and deeper on the actual thing. If I keep on, it's cooled. I mean, you've probably got the proper phrase for it. But generative listening, generative attention. So you so there isn't. It's against my philosophy to have a set bunch of questions, I mean, beyond really obvious ones like tell me about yourself or what's on your mind, or how's it going, or you know, what's been working well recently what's been working less well? I shouldn't be giving you this advice.

Well, I would like you to tell me more about ignoring your advice, sorry, Nige, about how you divide your life into three trimesters. Can you tell me about that?

Well, I would like you to tell me more about ignoring your advice, sorry, Nige, about how you divide your life into three trimesters. Can you tell me about that?

Yeah? I mean I just have you heard of Poma, one of my favorite charts. I haven't. I don't present with any charts when I do my speeches, so I haven't got any snow. Was asked we'd send slides and if they insist, I send them one that just has capital p io m A written on it. Are you familiar with this? No, it's a little known business philosophy called pulled it out my ass Hah. Yeah. So I just look at my life because I happen to be turning sixty, and it makes sense to me, but I'm not saying it does to anyone else. To look at your life in the thirds. And you could say learn, earn return. So you spend the first third sort of learning, I mean officially learning at school, but also learning how to get dressed, drive, you know, have a relationship, whatever, blah blah blah. And then the middle bit doing what you're doing, you know, running around, hard working, earning money, looking after you loved ones, building business is absolutely fantastic. And then wherever you define and for Rupert Murdock, it's probably ninety three and Martin sorrel. It's ninety seven or never a return thing where you return to the woman you wanted to be in the first place, and you haven't got all ten children to look after. In six mortgages, you can actually think about how you're going to feel the twenty summers that you've got left on this earth. You know, how you're going to make a contribution, how you're going to whatever. So that's and I'm just making it up, but it feels intuitively that it's got some sense. Is you go through you know, you're a child, you're an adult, and then you're an old adult. And I don't think old is bad. I think old is completely fine. I mean, actually it should be the best part of your life. So I just choose to look at my life in that way. And I find that the Japanese are a phrase for this can reky what is can recky? How Japanese celebrate the sixth birthday. So it is a culturally recognized thing as you come into the autumn of your life. And for me, part of my book Smart Stupid than sixty is leaning into that. If I can use that revolting phrase where you engage with it and go yipee. I am coming into the autumn of my life.

Yeah? I mean I just have you heard of Poma, one of my favorite charts. I haven't. I don't present with any charts when I do my speeches, so I haven't got any snow. Was asked we'd send slides and if they insist, I send them one that just has capital p io m A written on it. Are you familiar with this? No, it's a little known business philosophy called pulled it out my ass Hah. Yeah. So I just look at my life because I happen to be turning sixty, and it makes sense to me, but I'm not saying it does to anyone else. To look at your life in the thirds. And you could say learn, earn return. So you spend the first third sort of learning, I mean officially learning at school, but also learning how to get dressed, drive, you know, have a relationship, whatever, blah blah blah. And then the middle bit doing what you're doing, you know, running around, hard working, earning money, looking after you loved ones, building business is absolutely fantastic. And then wherever you define and for Rupert Murdock, it's probably ninety three and Martin sorrel. It's ninety seven or never a return thing where you return to the woman you wanted to be in the first place, and you haven't got all ten children to look after. In six mortgages, you can actually think about how you're going to feel the twenty summers that you've got left on this earth. You know, how you're going to make a contribution, how you're going to whatever. So that's and I'm just making it up, but it feels intuitively that it's got some sense. Is you go through you know, you're a child, you're an adult, and then you're an old adult. And I don't think old is bad. I think old is completely fine. I mean, actually it should be the best part of your life. So I just choose to look at my life in that way. And I find that the Japanese are a phrase for this can reky what is can recky? How Japanese celebrate the sixth birthday. So it is a culturally recognized thing as you come into the autumn of your life. And for me, part of my book Smart Stupid than sixty is leaning into that. If I can use that revolting phrase where you engage with it and go yipee. I am coming into the autumn of my life.

So how have you done that? Like, because in your book you write about preparing for the third trimester in the second trimester, So what were the steps that you took to do that in your own life?

So how have you done that? Like, because in your book you write about preparing for the third trimester in the second trimester, So what were the steps that you took to do that in your own life?

So this is and I don't want to see a grown woman cry or upset any of your listeners, But I wow, here we go. Is the book? I mean perfect for Christmas, I should add. But the book, although you know lots of people will buy it for people's you know, uncles who are turning sixty or whatever, it actually should be read by forty year olds because I mean one level is you get to your deathbed and you go, what was all that for? I've wasted the last twenty years of my life. I should have been having more holidays, more sex, more fun. Instead I was building my pension up. Great, I've got no friends and got no memories. You know, well done. Another level is you get to sixty and you say, I now need to attend to some proper things in my life. I'm going to take up gulf and basket weaving and be nicer to my wife. Oh gosh, he's left me. But that's better than the first option, and you lay down some fundamental foundations in your life, friendship, contribution, you know, rewarding meaningful things, experiences, not possessions. But the real answer is never letting those foundations go. That's the real answer. And that now, obviously we can't get in the bloody time machine. Now, I was lucky because I lost my job when I was forty. I didn't think I was lucky, but I was lucky. So I've always been thinking about the point of life ever since I studied theology and all that stuff. But you know, life is busy and stressful and not easy, especially with four kids and moving countries and all that competitive, stressful industry. But the people who really have cracked it, and you have to be superhumanly brilliant to do this, is they never change from that cheery, happy, fun kind seventeen year old, and they work at something that they can stay being that fun kind, cheery seventeen year old even when they're twenty seven and then thirty seven, so when they get to be fifty seven, they don't go, gosh. I've over the last three decades to turn myself into a husk of a person where did it go. I'll try and get back to you know, I'll call up my old university mates that I haven't spoken to in forty years. So it's a long way come around. You answer is, I've I don't subscribe to the you know, the Reginald Perin working in account seat firm, and you hate it until you're sixty and then retire and suddenly take up golf. You know, it's not really where it's at is laid down some foundations, or more importantly, don't get rid of those foundations, so friendships, relationships, interests, whatever. So over the last twenty years, for me, I have worked very, very very hard at not letting anyone who I don't admire being my boss. And when I mean being my boss, I don't just mean being my literal boss, but actually having control over me. You know that horrible situation where you work in a I'll mat I'll make it up. I won't mention any names, Goldman, Sachs or whatever. You just attend you're working somewhere and you don't like where you're working, and your boss leans over your desk and goes listen, dipshit. You've got no choice because I know you've got a large mortgage and three children in private school, says, suck it up, sweet caches and do the next deal. And I'd like to get to say at that stage, how about you range the words often fuck and apply them to yourself because I don't like this. Yeah, so it's just to be in charge of designing your own life. But within the real world, we've got to work hard, we've all got to make compromises, and you can't have everything. So it's a long answer to your question. But since the age of forty, I've taken it very, very seriously to maintain and nurture but also to develop new ones. I never was an author. I'm now giving talks about my fourth book. I never was a podcaster. I now spend lots of time doing podcasting. I never was a coach. Is to try to lay down things that I find interesting and rewarding, that I think make a small little contribution to the world, rather than and there's nothing wrong with this, by the way, being an account director in an advertising agency, which is a perfectly wonderful thing to be and I used to be that. But if I'd never developed anything else, well, then when you lose the account that you work on. You're rooted. You can't fall back on your coaching, income speaking, income author, income podcast, income consulting income. You haven't, you know, you have to go around begging the other agency that's won the account to be I've been driven by a terror of Justin And when I say a count director, I mean managing director and CEO, because that's all you are anyway. When you do that, you're sort of at the mercy of other people who don't give two hoops about you.

So this is and I don't want to see a grown woman cry or upset any of your listeners, But I wow, here we go. Is the book? I mean perfect for Christmas, I should add. But the book, although you know lots of people will buy it for people's you know, uncles who are turning sixty or whatever, it actually should be read by forty year olds because I mean one level is you get to your deathbed and you go, what was all that for? I've wasted the last twenty years of my life. I should have been having more holidays, more sex, more fun. Instead I was building my pension up. Great, I've got no friends and got no memories. You know, well done. Another level is you get to sixty and you say, I now need to attend to some proper things in my life. I'm going to take up gulf and basket weaving and be nicer to my wife. Oh gosh, he's left me. But that's better than the first option, and you lay down some fundamental foundations in your life, friendship, contribution, you know, rewarding meaningful things, experiences, not possessions. But the real answer is never letting those foundations go. That's the real answer. And that now, obviously we can't get in the bloody time machine. Now, I was lucky because I lost my job when I was forty. I didn't think I was lucky, but I was lucky. So I've always been thinking about the point of life ever since I studied theology and all that stuff. But you know, life is busy and stressful and not easy, especially with four kids and moving countries and all that competitive, stressful industry. But the people who really have cracked it, and you have to be superhumanly brilliant to do this, is they never change from that cheery, happy, fun kind seventeen year old, and they work at something that they can stay being that fun kind, cheery seventeen year old even when they're twenty seven and then thirty seven, so when they get to be fifty seven, they don't go, gosh. I've over the last three decades to turn myself into a husk of a person where did it go. I'll try and get back to you know, I'll call up my old university mates that I haven't spoken to in forty years. So it's a long way come around. You answer is, I've I don't subscribe to the you know, the Reginald Perin working in account seat firm, and you hate it until you're sixty and then retire and suddenly take up golf. You know, it's not really where it's at is laid down some foundations, or more importantly, don't get rid of those foundations, so friendships, relationships, interests, whatever. So over the last twenty years, for me, I have worked very, very very hard at not letting anyone who I don't admire being my boss. And when I mean being my boss, I don't just mean being my literal boss, but actually having control over me. You know that horrible situation where you work in a I'll mat I'll make it up. I won't mention any names, Goldman, Sachs or whatever. You just attend you're working somewhere and you don't like where you're working, and your boss leans over your desk and goes listen, dipshit. You've got no choice because I know you've got a large mortgage and three children in private school, says, suck it up, sweet caches and do the next deal. And I'd like to get to say at that stage, how about you range the words often fuck and apply them to yourself because I don't like this. Yeah, so it's just to be in charge of designing your own life. But within the real world, we've got to work hard, we've all got to make compromises, and you can't have everything. So it's a long answer to your question. But since the age of forty, I've taken it very, very seriously to maintain and nurture but also to develop new ones. I never was an author. I'm now giving talks about my fourth book. I never was a podcaster. I now spend lots of time doing podcasting. I never was a coach. Is to try to lay down things that I find interesting and rewarding, that I think make a small little contribution to the world, rather than and there's nothing wrong with this, by the way, being an account director in an advertising agency, which is a perfectly wonderful thing to be and I used to be that. But if I'd never developed anything else, well, then when you lose the account that you work on. You're rooted. You can't fall back on your coaching, income speaking, income author, income podcast, income consulting income. You haven't, you know, you have to go around begging the other agency that's won the account to be I've been driven by a terror of Justin And when I say a count director, I mean managing director and CEO, because that's all you are anyway. When you do that, you're sort of at the mercy of other people who don't give two hoops about you.

We will be back with Nigel soon talking about how he has deliberately nurtured friendships in preparation for his third trimester. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co. What about friendships, like, how have you deliberately nurtured should friendships to prepare for the third trimester?

We will be back with Nigel soon talking about how he has deliberately nurtured friendships in preparation for his third trimester. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co. What about friendships, like, how have you deliberately nurtured should friendships to prepare for the third trimester?

Well, oh, dear, you're going to trigger me? Is I? I often think I do friendship wrong, and that I I mean, I mean, I adore all my friends, and I've got varied friends and they're very valuable to me. But I'm an unusual case unusual schooling, you know, center boarding school at the age of five in another country, and then you give up drink and then you emigrate around the world. So it's not really conducive to having you know, I look at my kids and their mates still with the people they went to primary school with. Well, of course they are because the primary I can see out the window the primary school and they live in Sydney, and you know, that's a lovely thing. So that that Thomas the tank Engine Island of Soda version of friendship or cheers or whatever, that I secretly envy and feel slightly lesser because I haven't got it is something that I've had to work an out. So I don't know anyone from my prep school anybody, I mean, I mean, I don't know anyone from my high school. I've got mates from university and so it's just to be aware of it and nurture it and water it. So I I you know, I don't prioritize work over friends. If that makes sense. I probably do it the other way around.

Well, oh, dear, you're going to trigger me? Is I? I often think I do friendship wrong, and that I I mean, I mean, I adore all my friends, and I've got varied friends and they're very valuable to me. But I'm an unusual case unusual schooling, you know, center boarding school at the age of five in another country, and then you give up drink and then you emigrate around the world. So it's not really conducive to having you know, I look at my kids and their mates still with the people they went to primary school with. Well, of course they are because the primary I can see out the window the primary school and they live in Sydney, and you know, that's a lovely thing. So that that Thomas the tank Engine Island of Soda version of friendship or cheers or whatever, that I secretly envy and feel slightly lesser because I haven't got it is something that I've had to work an out. So I don't know anyone from my prep school anybody, I mean, I mean, I don't know anyone from my high school. I've got mates from university and so it's just to be aware of it and nurture it and water it. So I I you know, I don't prioritize work over friends. If that makes sense. I probably do it the other way around.

How do you do that in practice.

How do you do that in practice.

Where you judge people by it? It's pretty when you go actions reveal intent. But I hear some people saying things about parenting or friends. But then you look at what they actually do and you go, well, but that's not what you say. So it's like people who are I don't know. Again, let's use the diet example, because that's easier. You know, I'm really keen to lose weights, and you go, when you're hoeing into a bowl of chips, you know, not that keen? Then oh, you mean you're keen to do it if it's really easy and pleasant and doesn't involve any discipline or sacrifice. Right, Okay, I understand it. So I would I will lose business and lose money and prioritize friends. And you go, well, well, so what of course you would? So I mean I would give you anxiety? How to say it is? I am there's just an important wedding and a mother in law birthday, and for a whole variety of reasons, I'm going to be in Europe for a month next year, and someone will call up and say, great news. Niger We've got two gigs for you in America, and that's going to you know, the American people pay more than anyone else in my little life. And I'll go, well, I can't do them well, and of course I can't do them. I'm going to Mary's. But I mean, I mean it doesn't as opposed to oh well in that case, and you go, well, so, so Ellie's wedding is not that important to you, then it's important if nothing else is in the calends. Yeah. So there's something if one were to get to some of the things that I hold myself to is that there's four values. I've never told anyone this. Here we go exclusive on how I work, but again it only works for me. Holdes off through discipline, honesty, hard work, humility. Yeah, okay, you know it's not I mean, everyone's got their own versions of it, but I reckon those four aren't aren't bad if you know, in whatever conversational situation you're in, are are you living your life and your endeavor true to those four?

Where you judge people by it? It's pretty when you go actions reveal intent. But I hear some people saying things about parenting or friends. But then you look at what they actually do and you go, well, but that's not what you say. So it's like people who are I don't know. Again, let's use the diet example, because that's easier. You know, I'm really keen to lose weights, and you go, when you're hoeing into a bowl of chips, you know, not that keen? Then oh, you mean you're keen to do it if it's really easy and pleasant and doesn't involve any discipline or sacrifice. Right, Okay, I understand it. So I would I will lose business and lose money and prioritize friends. And you go, well, well, so what of course you would? So I mean I would give you anxiety? How to say it is? I am there's just an important wedding and a mother in law birthday, and for a whole variety of reasons, I'm going to be in Europe for a month next year, and someone will call up and say, great news. Niger We've got two gigs for you in America, and that's going to you know, the American people pay more than anyone else in my little life. And I'll go, well, I can't do them well, and of course I can't do them. I'm going to Mary's. But I mean, I mean it doesn't as opposed to oh well in that case, and you go, well, so, so Ellie's wedding is not that important to you, then it's important if nothing else is in the calends. Yeah. So there's something if one were to get to some of the things that I hold myself to is that there's four values. I've never told anyone this. Here we go exclusive on how I work, but again it only works for me. Holdes off through discipline, honesty, hard work, humility. Yeah, okay, you know it's not I mean, everyone's got their own versions of it, but I reckon those four aren't aren't bad if you know, in whatever conversational situation you're in, are are you living your life and your endeavor true to those four?

Something you wrote about in Smart, Stiffend and sixty, which is your latest book, which I just loved. Although you know that, but I feel like I need to tell you that. Well, we're recording, so listeners say, Christmas present, Amantha did, I did? Oh what a brilliant Christmas present. So something you write about is that you had to accept that your most in inverted commas conventionally successful days might be behind you, kind of referring, I guess to those you know objective career peaks like being a CEO, for example, And I would love to know what what that felt like when you came to that realization. How did you get there as well?

Something you wrote about in Smart, Stiffend and sixty, which is your latest book, which I just loved. Although you know that, but I feel like I need to tell you that. Well, we're recording, so listeners say, Christmas present, Amantha did, I did? Oh what a brilliant Christmas present. So something you write about is that you had to accept that your most in inverted commas conventionally successful days might be behind you, kind of referring, I guess to those you know objective career peaks like being a CEO, for example, And I would love to know what what that felt like when you came to that realization. How did you get there as well?

Well, well I got there really easily, just by opening my eyes as I drive around in my Kia Rio watching twenty seven year olds in the aston margin and as I read the press of some knob jockey in New York has just been made, so understanding it is completely easier. I actually am. They're all lovely people that I judge to think called the efies recently one of the you know, one of the judges. And then for some reason I'd accepted to go to the actual awards and present an award, which I usually just judge and don't go to the thing. But it's brilliant just walking around going you know, there's all these people thrusting positioning telling you you know whatever, and you go. So that's where the action is, and that's completely fine. I mean I'm sitting there in my second hand clothes wanting to take an early TAXI. So it comes back to those four values, you know, honesty, humility. Just be clear. I do not run a multinational company with fifteen thousand employees. I have one employee. You're talking to him, and then I think the second part of the question is how does that feel. It feels great, it feels fantastic. I wouldn't swat places in a million years, I think the I think the key again back to those four values I spoke about, is the honesty part. So what you can do is you can be a little bit oppositional and go who that person not very good, really and that firm that they run isn't very no, no, no, she is really really bright and really successful and earns lots and lots of money and is very powerful. Those are all the facts, and more so than me, and you are great as opposed to having to the Only way you can be comfortable with it is deny that that he or she is. Does that make sense? You can go Rupert Murdoch has much, much, much more money and power than I do. But nudge.

Well, well I got there really easily, just by opening my eyes as I drive around in my Kia Rio watching twenty seven year olds in the aston margin and as I read the press of some knob jockey in New York has just been made, so understanding it is completely easier. I actually am. They're all lovely people that I judge to think called the efies recently one of the you know, one of the judges. And then for some reason I'd accepted to go to the actual awards and present an award, which I usually just judge and don't go to the thing. But it's brilliant just walking around going you know, there's all these people thrusting positioning telling you you know whatever, and you go. So that's where the action is, and that's completely fine. I mean I'm sitting there in my second hand clothes wanting to take an early TAXI. So it comes back to those four values, you know, honesty, humility. Just be clear. I do not run a multinational company with fifteen thousand employees. I have one employee. You're talking to him, and then I think the second part of the question is how does that feel. It feels great, it feels fantastic. I wouldn't swat places in a million years, I think the I think the key again back to those four values I spoke about, is the honesty part. So what you can do is you can be a little bit oppositional and go who that person not very good, really and that firm that they run isn't very no, no, no, she is really really bright and really successful and earns lots and lots of money and is very powerful. Those are all the facts, and more so than me, and you are great as opposed to having to the Only way you can be comfortable with it is deny that that he or she is. Does that make sense? You can go Rupert Murdoch has much, much, much more money and power than I do. But nudge.

What I'm wondering, like, how do you transfer? Because I imagine you know, and we know each other when you were CEO of Leo Bennett and I was a mere minion on the on the on the shop floor looking really it was I, but you were you were you were the best CEO that I've ever experienced working for. And I say that, you know, not just because I'm talking to you, but like, as a CEO, I would imagine that you attach so much of your self identity to that role and to what you do for work. How did you almost attach that and come not to measure your life by things that are you know, sort of obviously successful.

What I'm wondering, like, how do you transfer? Because I imagine you know, and we know each other when you were CEO of Leo Bennett and I was a mere minion on the on the on the shop floor looking really it was I, but you were you were you were the best CEO that I've ever experienced working for. And I say that, you know, not just because I'm talking to you, but like, as a CEO, I would imagine that you attach so much of your self identity to that role and to what you do for work. How did you almost attach that and come not to measure your life by things that are you know, sort of obviously successful.

So gosh, that certain. That's a that's a very good question. It is. One answer is the fat, forty and fard experience? Where where from? Then? I worked at it a lot. I didn't want that to be my identity. I was very committed to trying to do the best job I could and be good at that job, but not make it me post. I mean, you know, I people might forget if they know me in Australia, But before I was a straight down the line conventional career warrior. So I've done that, and the way I was rewarded was I was made redundant. So that's a useful lesson. You go what I did, what everyone else said, and I bade the rules and I got flipped onto the scrapping. So then when you met me at Liabnette, that was post my year off, having done some reflection and coming back so different to if you'd known me when I was the CEO of my first agency in you know, straight up and still hopefully good at it in a nice bloke. But I was, you know, I hadn't done the serious, proper, proper reflection of how I wanted to be. But a second part to this is me giving up drinking was quite a instructive process in other areas of my life. So I haven't had a drink in twenty years, and when I hadn't, I give up drink before I took over Leabnette as a CEO. And the process of giving up drink, which was not easy if you had based your life around alcohol, which I had for the previous forty years, you discover that it's down to you. And so it's about I learned about putting meaningful, permanent change into your life. It just happened to be. I learned it about drink. You go, if I'm going to make this fundamental shift in my life, I can't be doing it for the affirmation, attention and approval of other people. And I can't be doing it expecting the support of other people. I mean, nice if I got it, but I can't be expecting it's a real proper this is you know, if it is to be, it is up to me type deal. And I meant it. So I gave up drink. And you know, idiots would try and get me to drink or mock me for not drinking, or I wouldn't be able to go and have friendly you know, nights out or whatever. But it was you know, this is going to happen. The main thing is the main thing, the main thing, And that experience helped me in a secret passionate bid not to fall into the trap that you're talking about, Nigel.

So gosh, that certain. That's a that's a very good question. It is. One answer is the fat, forty and fard experience? Where where from? Then? I worked at it a lot. I didn't want that to be my identity. I was very committed to trying to do the best job I could and be good at that job, but not make it me post. I mean, you know, I people might forget if they know me in Australia, But before I was a straight down the line conventional career warrior. So I've done that, and the way I was rewarded was I was made redundant. So that's a useful lesson. You go what I did, what everyone else said, and I bade the rules and I got flipped onto the scrapping. So then when you met me at Liabnette, that was post my year off, having done some reflection and coming back so different to if you'd known me when I was the CEO of my first agency in you know, straight up and still hopefully good at it in a nice bloke. But I was, you know, I hadn't done the serious, proper, proper reflection of how I wanted to be. But a second part to this is me giving up drinking was quite a instructive process in other areas of my life. So I haven't had a drink in twenty years, and when I hadn't, I give up drink before I took over Leabnette as a CEO. And the process of giving up drink, which was not easy if you had based your life around alcohol, which I had for the previous forty years, you discover that it's down to you. And so it's about I learned about putting meaningful, permanent change into your life. It just happened to be. I learned it about drink. You go, if I'm going to make this fundamental shift in my life, I can't be doing it for the affirmation, attention and approval of other people. And I can't be doing it expecting the support of other people. I mean, nice if I got it, but I can't be expecting it's a real proper this is you know, if it is to be, it is up to me type deal. And I meant it. So I gave up drink. And you know, idiots would try and get me to drink or mock me for not drinking, or I wouldn't be able to go and have friendly you know, nights out or whatever. But it was you know, this is going to happen. The main thing is the main thing, the main thing, And that experience helped me in a secret passionate bid not to fall into the trap that you're talking about, Nigel.

For people that want to get a great Christmas present for their friends, family loved ones, what should they buy and where can they get it?

For people that want to get a great Christmas present for their friends, family loved ones, what should they buy and where can they get it?

From a time wise in all.

From a time wise in all.

And they should also pick up a copy of Smart Stupid and sixty, which is your latest book. I mean, all your books are brilliant. I'm such a I'm such a fan of your writing. I just you know, your latest book, like your other ones, they it literally made me laugh and cry and think differently about things. It's it was just it's one. It was just wonderful. You obviously do other things, Nige. How else can people track you down?

And they should also pick up a copy of Smart Stupid and sixty, which is your latest book. I mean, all your books are brilliant. I'm such a I'm such a fan of your writing. I just you know, your latest book, like your other ones, they it literally made me laugh and cry and think differently about things. It's it was just it's one. It was just wonderful. You obviously do other things, Nige. How else can people track you down?

Gosh so well? The thing I'm very I mean, I'm passionate about all the things I do, and I've got a website. I don't even know it's I think it's nigelmash dot com. But if you find an underwater photographer, that's not me. I'm the ugly bloke who doesn't do it's nigelmass dot com and check it's not a photographer, but maybe one of the places. Obviously, I'm thrilled to people buy Small, Stupid and sixty. Thank you for saying nice things. But it's check out my podcast, The Five of My Life. I just adore where that's going and how that's building. It's a lovely community. And I do this thing where you know, I've given you a hard time in the past because you don't answer emails it is. I answer every single email that gets sent to me, and people can send me emails, whether it's about coaching or speaking or West Day Second or the Sydney Skinny that's coming back next year for the tenth anniversary. So if anyone is in any way moved to talk to me or ask me a question or herl abuse at me, go to my website and I will and I will reply. Have I told you the story about lady? I posted it on Instagram because I found it hilarious. Who she sent me an email by my website and it was Nigel. I have to let you know I've just finished fifty and Yadder Yadder. So the insult in that you know, as in you clearly know the title, but you're not. You know, it's it's Amantha. You do how I, how I whatever, work whatever? You know. I've just finished fifty and yadda Yadder. I picked it up at the Mildura Airport Free Book Exchange and I have to say on page one hundred and sixty, I couldn't help thinking I wish he'd wish his wife would write one, because that's when I'd pay for There you go. So, but I replied to her, I said, thank you very much indeed for taking the time you know to write. I'll let Kate know she's got a guaranteed sale if she puts pen to paper. You can also write to me and say nice things please.

Gosh so well? The thing I'm very I mean, I'm passionate about all the things I do, and I've got a website. I don't even know it's I think it's nigelmash dot com. But if you find an underwater photographer, that's not me. I'm the ugly bloke who doesn't do it's nigelmass dot com and check it's not a photographer, but maybe one of the places. Obviously, I'm thrilled to people buy Small, Stupid and sixty. Thank you for saying nice things. But it's check out my podcast, The Five of My Life. I just adore where that's going and how that's building. It's a lovely community. And I do this thing where you know, I've given you a hard time in the past because you don't answer emails it is. I answer every single email that gets sent to me, and people can send me emails, whether it's about coaching or speaking or West Day Second or the Sydney Skinny that's coming back next year for the tenth anniversary. So if anyone is in any way moved to talk to me or ask me a question or herl abuse at me, go to my website and I will and I will reply. Have I told you the story about lady? I posted it on Instagram because I found it hilarious. Who she sent me an email by my website and it was Nigel. I have to let you know I've just finished fifty and Yadder Yadder. So the insult in that you know, as in you clearly know the title, but you're not. You know, it's it's Amantha. You do how I, how I whatever, work whatever? You know. I've just finished fifty and yadda Yadder. I picked it up at the Mildura Airport Free Book Exchange and I have to say on page one hundred and sixty, I couldn't help thinking I wish he'd wish his wife would write one, because that's when I'd pay for There you go. So, but I replied to her, I said, thank you very much indeed for taking the time you know to write. I'll let Kate know she's got a guaranteed sale if she puts pen to paper. You can also write to me and say nice things please.

I hope that this chat got you thinking differently about your third trimester, or perhaps you're already in it right now. I know that for me, I wrap so much of my identity up in what I do and what the work I do brings to the world that I would feel really lost if, say, overnight, I was unable to work or forced into retirement. I know that when I was younger, I had goals around financial independence so that I could retire when I was young, but I found these goals have shifted because I can't imagine not wanting to work because it brings me a lot of joy. Not every day, of course, but definitely more days than not. Thank you for sharing part of your day with me by listening to how I work. If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Gimba. How I Work was recorded on the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool and nation. I am so grateful for being able to work and live on this beautiful land, and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.

I hope that this chat got you thinking differently about your third trimester, or perhaps you're already in it right now. I know that for me, I wrap so much of my identity up in what I do and what the work I do brings to the world that I would feel really lost if, say, overnight, I was unable to work or forced into retirement. I know that when I was younger, I had goals around financial independence so that I could retire when I was young, but I found these goals have shifted because I can't imagine not wanting to work because it brings me a lot of joy. Not every day, of course, but definitely more days than not. Thank you for sharing part of your day with me by listening to how I work. If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Gimba. How I Work was recorded on the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool and nation. I am so grateful for being able to work and live on this beautiful land, and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.