Kemmy Neckopel loves a ritual and my goodness, she has some good ones from her twenty four Things for twenty twenty four through to her annual planning and reflection rituals. Kemmy lives a purposeful life and that is what I expected from one of Australia's leading coaches who has been trained personally by Brene Brown along with been the international best selling author of Power. So what are Kemy's secrets to being a standout coach and how does she incorporate reflection into every week? And also, Kemy shares one of the most powerful lessons she has learnt and passes on to her clients that you should never go to the butcher for bread, and Kemmy unpacks exactly what that means. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of Behavior change Consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work the show about how to help you get so much more out of the hours in your day. When I was researching some of Kemy's habits and rituals in preparation for this interview, one of the things I came across was Kemmy's twenty four things for twenty twenty four, So I wanted to know a bit more about this list.

Kemmy Neckopel loves a ritual and my goodness, she has some good ones from her twenty four Things for twenty twenty four through to her annual planning and reflection rituals. Kemmy lives a purposeful life and that is what I expected from one of Australia's leading coaches who has been trained personally by Brene Brown along with been the international best selling author of Power. So what are Kemy's secrets to being a standout coach and how does she incorporate reflection into every week? And also, Kemy shares one of the most powerful lessons she has learnt and passes on to her clients that you should never go to the butcher for bread, and Kemmy unpacks exactly what that means. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of Behavior change Consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work the show about how to help you get so much more out of the hours in your day. When I was researching some of Kemy's habits and rituals in preparation for this interview, one of the things I came across was Kemmy's twenty four things for twenty twenty four, So I wanted to know a bit more about this list.

I'm very excited to share this with people. Actually. So the idea is the twenty four things for twenty twenty four is these goals, all these experiences that we want to experience through the year, which should be easy to organize to make happen. And yet if we don't organize them, if we don't write them down in some way, chances are we'll get to twenty twenty five and we haven't done any of the things. I trained as an actor. Theater is very important to me as an art form and as a craft, but it sort of seems like it should be really easy to book a ticket to the theater. But a year can go and you realize I haven't been to the theater once. For me, the twenty four things, obviously last year was twenty three things. Betweenty twenty three. The aim is not to cross them all off the list. I never ever do the whole list, but through the year I just start to keep checking back and just looking, okay, this time of year, which one of these items on this list would be a good thing to implement? A check in with people about whether we're going to do this this year or not. So that is my twenty four things for twenty twenty four list.

I'm very excited to share this with people. Actually. So the idea is the twenty four things for twenty twenty four is these goals, all these experiences that we want to experience through the year, which should be easy to organize to make happen. And yet if we don't organize them, if we don't write them down in some way, chances are we'll get to twenty twenty five and we haven't done any of the things. I trained as an actor. Theater is very important to me as an art form and as a craft, but it sort of seems like it should be really easy to book a ticket to the theater. But a year can go and you realize I haven't been to the theater once. For me, the twenty four things, obviously last year was twenty three things. Betweenty twenty three. The aim is not to cross them all off the list. I never ever do the whole list, but through the year I just start to keep checking back and just looking, okay, this time of year, which one of these items on this list would be a good thing to implement? A check in with people about whether we're going to do this this year or not. So that is my twenty four things for twenty twenty four list.

I love that, and I assume that that's separate from goal setting or working out what are your priorities for the year.

I love that, and I assume that that's separate from goal setting or working out what are your priorities for the year.

Yeah, one hundred percent. They're kind of what I call the little big things. They're not the things that you need to implement a series of actions that are necessarily going to be like major obstacles. The biggest obstacle is probably going to be aligning people's calendars, you know, for a night away or something like that. But it's not anything that you're necessarily like reaching for a growth goal or that you're taking yourself outside of your comfort zone. It could be that, but it's more the little things, you know. I think one of those ones that I in for twenty twenty four for me is to lie on my stomach in a park for a whole day and read. You know.

Yeah, one hundred percent. They're kind of what I call the little big things. They're not the things that you need to implement a series of actions that are necessarily going to be like major obstacles. The biggest obstacle is probably going to be aligning people's calendars, you know, for a night away or something like that. But it's not anything that you're necessarily like reaching for a growth goal or that you're taking yourself outside of your comfort zone. It could be that, but it's more the little things, you know. I think one of those ones that I in for twenty twenty four for me is to lie on my stomach in a park for a whole day and read. You know.

So that wasn't the sound of that, Yeah, and it is.

So that wasn't the sound of that, Yeah, and it is.

It's that I have this thing about lying on my stomach and reading. It's like, Wow, how to just go to a park with all the food that I need and to not leave the park for a day and just read. So that's on my list for twenty twenty four and we'll see if it happens. But I'd like it to.

It's that I have this thing about lying on my stomach and reading. It's like, Wow, how to just go to a park with all the food that I need and to not leave the park for a day and just read. So that's on my list for twenty twenty four and we'll see if it happens. But I'd like it to.

Tell me about your annual goal setting then, like what's your process around that or any rituals that you have to go? Where do I want to be at the end of this year.

Tell me about your annual goal setting then, like what's your process around that or any rituals that you have to go? Where do I want to be at the end of this year.

I love a ritual, and for most of us, we get to a point in our life. I'm going to turn fifty this year and well being is one of my core goals. So it is something that I have always put front and foremost of everything. I understand that if I am not a well being, then I cannot show up for the things or for the people in my life that are so I know that many people struggle to put their well being first. It is not something that I have ever struggled with, because I know I have nothing to offer if I'm not looking after myself. And so for me, this ritual has built up over years. I now have teenage children, but when my children were younger, my husband would take them away to kind of a family camp that his family do and have done for many many years, and I went for the first ten years when my children were younger. But after a period of time, I realized, I don't have to come and do this. This kind of isn't really my thing. And I thought, oh my gosh, I could just stay at home on my own for a week, and when I wake up in the morning, the way I left the house the night before is exactly how it would be in the morning. And I stay at home and I pleanse, I do a fast, I walk, I speak to hardly anyone unless I have to. I basically just clear out my system, not anything to do with di or weight loss or any of that, purely because I believe that when our body isn't digesting, it allows other things to come through us. And in that time, I trust that I am going to pick and explore goals for the upcoming year. And I have been doing this now for nearly a decade, and anything that comes to me in January is basically what is going to be my focus for the year ahead.

I love a ritual, and for most of us, we get to a point in our life. I'm going to turn fifty this year and well being is one of my core goals. So it is something that I have always put front and foremost of everything. I understand that if I am not a well being, then I cannot show up for the things or for the people in my life that are so I know that many people struggle to put their well being first. It is not something that I have ever struggled with, because I know I have nothing to offer if I'm not looking after myself. And so for me, this ritual has built up over years. I now have teenage children, but when my children were younger, my husband would take them away to kind of a family camp that his family do and have done for many many years, and I went for the first ten years when my children were younger. But after a period of time, I realized, I don't have to come and do this. This kind of isn't really my thing. And I thought, oh my gosh, I could just stay at home on my own for a week, and when I wake up in the morning, the way I left the house the night before is exactly how it would be in the morning. And I stay at home and I pleanse, I do a fast, I walk, I speak to hardly anyone unless I have to. I basically just clear out my system, not anything to do with di or weight loss or any of that, purely because I believe that when our body isn't digesting, it allows other things to come through us. And in that time, I trust that I am going to pick and explore goals for the upcoming year. And I have been doing this now for nearly a decade, and anything that comes to me in January is basically what is going to be my focus for the year ahead.

I'm curious as to what a goal looks like for you. Would you be willing to share one of your goals for this year?

I'm curious as to what a goal looks like for you. Would you be willing to share one of your goals for this year?

So the goal that I'm happy to share with you for this year is that for the last four years. I have been experimenting with particular flower varieties because in my husband and I bought a farm, and I have been looking at what's going to be the flower or the flowers that I can grow to create a sustainable micro flower farm, and that is pianies and David Austin Rose is So one of my top three goals this year is to get the first fifty peony plants in to the first flower paddoc at the farm.

So the goal that I'm happy to share with you for this year is that for the last four years. I have been experimenting with particular flower varieties because in my husband and I bought a farm, and I have been looking at what's going to be the flower or the flowers that I can grow to create a sustainable micro flower farm, and that is pianies and David Austin Rose is So one of my top three goals this year is to get the first fifty peony plants in to the first flower paddoc at the farm.

Wow, I that is not what I was expecting. That is very, very interesting.

Wow, I that is not what I was expecting. That is very, very interesting.

Now.

Now.

I know that you're really big on taking time to reflect and this feeds into goal setting, but I imagine that this is more of a regular practice maybe that you have in your life. I'd love to know what does reflection look like for you in terms of frequency, in terms of how often you do it, and the kinds of questions that you're asking.

I know that you're really big on taking time to reflect and this feeds into goal setting, but I imagine that this is more of a regular practice maybe that you have in your life. I'd love to know what does reflection look like for you in terms of frequency, in terms of how often you do it, and the kinds of questions that you're asking.

I think I'm always in reflection mode, actually, now that you ask that. Even for me with this idea of setting up the flower farm, I had a lot of time to reflect in twenty twenty, as many people did, but especially those of us that navigate the world as black people in white dominated spaces, and I realized during that time that I want my activism to be around joy and delight and bringing more beauty into the world. And that was something that came with sitting with what was a very very traumatic experience for many of us, but thinking, Okay, what do I get to do now the resources that I have now, with the work that I do, with the networks that I have. And I decided through this kind of sitting, with meditation and walking in nature and being with nature, I just very much decided I want to grow beauty in the world. And whether that's within the work that I do with my clients, whether it's when I'm speaking from stage, or whether it's when I'm on the farm, that is how I want to spend my time.

I think I'm always in reflection mode, actually, now that you ask that. Even for me with this idea of setting up the flower farm, I had a lot of time to reflect in twenty twenty, as many people did, but especially those of us that navigate the world as black people in white dominated spaces, and I realized during that time that I want my activism to be around joy and delight and bringing more beauty into the world. And that was something that came with sitting with what was a very very traumatic experience for many of us, but thinking, Okay, what do I get to do now the resources that I have now, with the work that I do, with the networks that I have. And I decided through this kind of sitting, with meditation and walking in nature and being with nature, I just very much decided I want to grow beauty in the world. And whether that's within the work that I do with my clients, whether it's when I'm speaking from stage, or whether it's when I'm on the farm, that is how I want to spend my time.

When I was preparing for this interview, I always like to listen to the person that i'm interviewing being interviewed by other people. And I'd heard you on the Imperfect a couple of times, and I love those chats. I listened to an interview that you had with Abby Chatfield and with what I was listening to, something I was really struck by is just you make it look so effortless in terms of building report and building trust with people you know, no matter who they are, what age they are, what their background is. And I know that's really important for you and your work as a And I'm wondering, what is it that you're doing. What are you consciously or perhaps unconsciously doing to build that trust and rapport with whoever it is that is on the receiving end of a chat with Chemi.

When I was preparing for this interview, I always like to listen to the person that i'm interviewing being interviewed by other people. And I'd heard you on the Imperfect a couple of times, and I love those chats. I listened to an interview that you had with Abby Chatfield and with what I was listening to, something I was really struck by is just you make it look so effortless in terms of building report and building trust with people you know, no matter who they are, what age they are, what their background is. And I know that's really important for you and your work as a And I'm wondering, what is it that you're doing. What are you consciously or perhaps unconsciously doing to build that trust and rapport with whoever it is that is on the receiving end of a chat with Chemi.

Great question. You've put me into reflection mode. Now. One of my other core values is connection. But it doesn't start with connection outside of myself. It starts with connection to myself. I believe that the most powerful and the most meaningful work that we can do in the world is to understand who we are with our light and our shadows, especially those of us that have any kind of leadership role. And in some ways I believe we're all leaders, you know, we're all living our lives to understand who we are.

Great question. You've put me into reflection mode. Now. One of my other core values is connection. But it doesn't start with connection outside of myself. It starts with connection to myself. I believe that the most powerful and the most meaningful work that we can do in the world is to understand who we are with our light and our shadows, especially those of us that have any kind of leadership role. And in some ways I believe we're all leaders, you know, we're all living our lives to understand who we are.

How do you do it when you're just not feeling it? Because I'm thinking back to my week last week and our members like seek as a dog, but just had to push on with work that I have, which which included a keynote to a few hundred people in Adelaide, which is not where I live, so involved in very long travel. I was worried about just having a coughing attack in the middle of my keynote. I was worried physically I just wouldn't be able to do this presentation. And I really had to just remind myself why I was there and get myself out of my own head, which did not come naturally to me last week. How do you do it? Because I'm sure you've had many many days like that.

How do you do it when you're just not feeling it? Because I'm thinking back to my week last week and our members like seek as a dog, but just had to push on with work that I have, which which included a keynote to a few hundred people in Adelaide, which is not where I live, so involved in very long travel. I was worried about just having a coughing attack in the middle of my keynote. I was worried physically I just wouldn't be able to do this presentation. And I really had to just remind myself why I was there and get myself out of my own head, which did not come naturally to me last week. How do you do it? Because I'm sure you've had many many days like that.

It depends, you know. I work from home by I worked from home for ten years before the pandemic hit. I love being at home. If I need to, I'll have a nap, you know. Like when I give, I give one hundred percent. And because I'm an introvert, if I give one hundred percent, that takes something from me. I used to be an actor, and I remember one of the acting teachers. She was very dramatic, obviously she would have had to be, and she was the leader of this young group of inspiring actors, and she shared this story about her father passing away when she had the lead role in a Shakespearean play and she didn't know whether or not she should go on stage that night, but she decided she was an actress and she had to do the job for the audience, and it was very old scorn and she said looked at us all and said, dougs, Dodor Theater will always come to the rescue. You step on stage and doctor theater or show up. And sometimes I have had that situation where as you say, you know you're booked for a keynote, people are counting on you. You can't say, actually, I'm going to have a nap or let's do it tomorrow. Those times I do something very similar to you. I check in why am I here? Why did I say yes to this? And then I just trust that doctor Theater is going to come, and I give everything that I have to give, and then I'll go and collapse in the hotel room or whatever it is that I need to do.

It depends, you know. I work from home by I worked from home for ten years before the pandemic hit. I love being at home. If I need to, I'll have a nap, you know. Like when I give, I give one hundred percent. And because I'm an introvert, if I give one hundred percent, that takes something from me. I used to be an actor, and I remember one of the acting teachers. She was very dramatic, obviously she would have had to be, and she was the leader of this young group of inspiring actors, and she shared this story about her father passing away when she had the lead role in a Shakespearean play and she didn't know whether or not she should go on stage that night, but she decided she was an actress and she had to do the job for the audience, and it was very old scorn and she said looked at us all and said, dougs, Dodor Theater will always come to the rescue. You step on stage and doctor theater or show up. And sometimes I have had that situation where as you say, you know you're booked for a keynote, people are counting on you. You can't say, actually, I'm going to have a nap or let's do it tomorrow. Those times I do something very similar to you. I check in why am I here? Why did I say yes to this? And then I just trust that doctor Theater is going to come, and I give everything that I have to give, and then I'll go and collapse in the hotel room or whatever it is that I need to do.

That question of what do I have to push through on and what should I not? It feels very timely because last week I feel like I made I don't know, twenty or thirty small decisions about can I push this, can I cancel it? Can I delegate it? Do I just have to push through? For you, though, when you are in a state where you are questioning whether you can do something. How do you make that decision about whether to push through, whether to postpone, or whether to just say no.

That question of what do I have to push through on and what should I not? It feels very timely because last week I feel like I made I don't know, twenty or thirty small decisions about can I push this, can I cancel it? Can I delegate it? Do I just have to push through? For you, though, when you are in a state where you are questioning whether you can do something. How do you make that decision about whether to push through, whether to postpone, or whether to just say no.

I think I have a few different tools because it depends on so many things. I have clients that will turn up and they're maybe a little bit sick, and I'll say to them, you know you don't have to be here today, do you want to postpone? Sometimes they'll say, yeah, do you know what? That'll be great? They just need a permission from me to do that. And I think most of us know when it comes to our health or the health of ones that we love, there is not much that is going to be more important than that.

I think I have a few different tools because it depends on so many things. I have clients that will turn up and they're maybe a little bit sick, and I'll say to them, you know you don't have to be here today, do you want to postpone? Sometimes they'll say, yeah, do you know what? That'll be great? They just need a permission from me to do that. And I think most of us know when it comes to our health or the health of ones that we love, there is not much that is going to be more important than that.

Not do you say no? Do you have strategies around that?

Not do you say no? Do you have strategies around that?

Amantha? This is where I believe values are the key to navigating life and leadership in ways that align with us. Once we are clear on our core values, it makes saying no so much clearer, not easier necessarily. In fact, understanding our core values and knowing what they are can make life harder because we have to have difficult conversations because sometimes we're saying no more often. But for me, I want to be able to put my head on my pillow and say today I showed up in the world as the best version of myself that I could aligned with my values. So I find it easy to say no, and I communicate my nose in the most generous way that I can. And one of the ways I like to do that is I'm a no safe for a speaking engagement for whatever reason. It may be that I'm not available for the date. It may be because of the industry that it is. It may just be that I know that I'm not the right speaker for that engagement. That I'm just I'm not trained in that era, I don't have the experience. And then I have incredible colleagues and friends that I like to then say, I'm not the person for this engagement, but I think so and so would be fantastic. So that is one way of saying no. Another is just being grateful, you know, thank you so much for thinking of me, and I'm a no to this opportunity. So it depends on what's coming through. But understand what our core values are makes no much easier than this idea of well, I'll just kind of deal with stuff as it comes.

Amantha? This is where I believe values are the key to navigating life and leadership in ways that align with us. Once we are clear on our core values, it makes saying no so much clearer, not easier necessarily. In fact, understanding our core values and knowing what they are can make life harder because we have to have difficult conversations because sometimes we're saying no more often. But for me, I want to be able to put my head on my pillow and say today I showed up in the world as the best version of myself that I could aligned with my values. So I find it easy to say no, and I communicate my nose in the most generous way that I can. And one of the ways I like to do that is I'm a no safe for a speaking engagement for whatever reason. It may be that I'm not available for the date. It may be because of the industry that it is. It may just be that I know that I'm not the right speaker for that engagement. That I'm just I'm not trained in that era, I don't have the experience. And then I have incredible colleagues and friends that I like to then say, I'm not the person for this engagement, but I think so and so would be fantastic. So that is one way of saying no. Another is just being grateful, you know, thank you so much for thinking of me, and I'm a no to this opportunity. So it depends on what's coming through. But understand what our core values are makes no much easier than this idea of well, I'll just kind of deal with stuff as it comes.

Something I was reading about on your blog is you were talking about when your book Power launched in Australia, You've got a great network here. It was easy to reach out and get people's help with spreading the word about the amazing book that it is. And then how launched in the US, and you said that it was harder because your network in the US is a lot smaller, and I'm wondering, how did you approach that task of promoting a book in such a big country with the small, relatively speaking network.

Something I was reading about on your blog is you were talking about when your book Power launched in Australia, You've got a great network here. It was easy to reach out and get people's help with spreading the word about the amazing book that it is. And then how launched in the US, and you said that it was harder because your network in the US is a lot smaller, and I'm wondering, how did you approach that task of promoting a book in such a big country with the small, relatively speaking network.

Yes, that was quite a few conversations actually with my publishing team and a dear friend, Lucy Ormond, who's also incredible PR manager, who came to the US with me for that book tour, and just to give a bit of an insight that the idea is that you kind of reach out to random influences and ask them, or actually don't even ask them, You just send them a book and you hope that maybe they'll do a post on your book, and there's no alignment there. For me, my third core value is connection, and so for me it was like, no, even though I only have a small network in the US, I am going to connect with the people that I know, and the marketing team are a bit no, but we have five hundred people that you could send messages out, and I said, you can do that if you want. Great, because you know you're the professionals and you understand how this works. This isn't my country, I said, But for me, I am going to send an actual video message or a personalized message to the person, asking them one would they like the book and if it resonated with them and their communities, if they would like to share that, that would be great. So then once I put my phone down from the video, I didn't feel like, oh I feel really smarty, or I'd just felt like, okay, that was me connecting authenticity with that person and now it's over to them. But I know that me connecting with them in that way aligns with my value of connection.

Yes, that was quite a few conversations actually with my publishing team and a dear friend, Lucy Ormond, who's also incredible PR manager, who came to the US with me for that book tour, and just to give a bit of an insight that the idea is that you kind of reach out to random influences and ask them, or actually don't even ask them, You just send them a book and you hope that maybe they'll do a post on your book, and there's no alignment there. For me, my third core value is connection, and so for me it was like, no, even though I only have a small network in the US, I am going to connect with the people that I know, and the marketing team are a bit no, but we have five hundred people that you could send messages out, and I said, you can do that if you want. Great, because you know you're the professionals and you understand how this works. This isn't my country, I said, But for me, I am going to send an actual video message or a personalized message to the person, asking them one would they like the book and if it resonated with them and their communities, if they would like to share that, that would be great. So then once I put my phone down from the video, I didn't feel like, oh I feel really smarty, or I'd just felt like, okay, that was me connecting authenticity with that person and now it's over to them. But I know that me connecting with them in that way aligns with my value of connection.

That's so cool. I've got to say, I love the power of a video message, and I'm surprised at how infrequently people use it. At the moment, I'm recruiting for a new CEO at Inventium and I've received well over one hundred applications and just like of such high quality, But only one of those people that reached out with these like amazing, very heartfelt letters. Only one person spoke to me in a video and it really stood out. Their personality was just really it just engaged me. And while they didn't have the strongest resume, I just thought, I can imagine this human being being part of the team. And so I've put it forward to the next round. But I think it's interesting how underutilized videos are.

That's so cool. I've got to say, I love the power of a video message, and I'm surprised at how infrequently people use it. At the moment, I'm recruiting for a new CEO at Inventium and I've received well over one hundred applications and just like of such high quality, But only one of those people that reached out with these like amazing, very heartfelt letters. Only one person spoke to me in a video and it really stood out. Their personality was just really it just engaged me. And while they didn't have the strongest resume, I just thought, I can imagine this human being being part of the team. And so I've put it forward to the next round. But I think it's interesting how underutilized videos are.

Yeah and I, and it can be because of people's relationship with video and looking into a camera. And once again let's go back this idea of values. Then, so for me, I'm not do I look my best today when I'm setting them the video. My value isn't to look my best or to make sure that my eyebrowser aligned or whatever it is. The value is to connect. And so that is the only lens. That is all I am going with. If I had other concerns around what they thought of me or anything, then maybe I wouldn't leave a video. I think, you know, we know that many people don't like public speaking, many people don't like filming themselves or hearing their voices. But for me, looking through the lens of connection, then I'm able to do that.

Yeah and I, and it can be because of people's relationship with video and looking into a camera. And once again let's go back this idea of values. Then, so for me, I'm not do I look my best today when I'm setting them the video. My value isn't to look my best or to make sure that my eyebrowser aligned or whatever it is. The value is to connect. And so that is the only lens. That is all I am going with. If I had other concerns around what they thought of me or anything, then maybe I wouldn't leave a video. I think, you know, we know that many people don't like public speaking, many people don't like filming themselves or hearing their voices. But for me, looking through the lens of connection, then I'm able to do that.

This perhaps links in with what you've said about not suffering from perfectionism. But something I've heard you say is that you should lower your expectations of yourself and others. And I'm wondering, can you give me some examples of how do you do that in your life?

This perhaps links in with what you've said about not suffering from perfectionism. But something I've heard you say is that you should lower your expectations of yourself and others. And I'm wondering, can you give me some examples of how do you do that in your life?

Well, I think it's a really good thing to do because then you can have friends. Yes, you know, it's all learned. So I was definitely someone I don't suffer from perfectionism, but I'm definitely someone where I have felt because I'm a woman of color, because I was raised in the UK, because I now live in Melbourne, I have definitely felt there either no expectations of me as a child growing up, or the expectation that I had to speak better, I had to conduct myself better, I had to dress better. And so when we have that projected onto us, it's hard for us not to internalize that and go, Okay, I must speak better, I must dress better. So then I would project that out again onto other people, and I just found that that meant that I was disappointed in the people that I loved around me. I just realized that I was having expectations of my friendship groups around who I thought they should be because of who people were telling me that I should be. So I learned that lesson very early on, that it was okay for me to have expectations of myself. I have a yoga and meditation practice now that's now thirty years. So the idea of being kind to myself and luring my expectations of myself is a learned daily practice. And I do like to do great work, and I like to do my best in everything I say yes to, which is why I say no to more than that I say yes to, because you can't give your to everything. And this idea of we're all humans, We're all going to fail, we're all going to get things wrong, we're all going to have moments in our lives or we're not showing up as our best self because of the stresses or responsibilities or mental health challenging, whatever it is. And so this idea of being mindful of what you expect of yourself, but also be mindful of what you expect from others, and I facilitate there to lead work, which is Brene Brown's leadership work. It is incredible how many expectations teams, individual team members have of other team members because they're projecting onto them. Or what one team, maybe the marketing department, are expecting of the HR department and what they expect of the new project, and that what they expect of tech. And there's all these stealth expectations that Brene talks about, and then everyone is disappointed. Everyone makes assumptions about what everyone else is doing and there isn't an alignment across what happens. So for me, the expectation, lowering it for ourselves and others allows us to live and work better together.

Well, I think it's a really good thing to do because then you can have friends. Yes, you know, it's all learned. So I was definitely someone I don't suffer from perfectionism, but I'm definitely someone where I have felt because I'm a woman of color, because I was raised in the UK, because I now live in Melbourne, I have definitely felt there either no expectations of me as a child growing up, or the expectation that I had to speak better, I had to conduct myself better, I had to dress better. And so when we have that projected onto us, it's hard for us not to internalize that and go, Okay, I must speak better, I must dress better. So then I would project that out again onto other people, and I just found that that meant that I was disappointed in the people that I loved around me. I just realized that I was having expectations of my friendship groups around who I thought they should be because of who people were telling me that I should be. So I learned that lesson very early on, that it was okay for me to have expectations of myself. I have a yoga and meditation practice now that's now thirty years. So the idea of being kind to myself and luring my expectations of myself is a learned daily practice. And I do like to do great work, and I like to do my best in everything I say yes to, which is why I say no to more than that I say yes to, because you can't give your to everything. And this idea of we're all humans, We're all going to fail, we're all going to get things wrong, we're all going to have moments in our lives or we're not showing up as our best self because of the stresses or responsibilities or mental health challenging, whatever it is. And so this idea of being mindful of what you expect of yourself, but also be mindful of what you expect from others, and I facilitate there to lead work, which is Brene Brown's leadership work. It is incredible how many expectations teams, individual team members have of other team members because they're projecting onto them. Or what one team, maybe the marketing department, are expecting of the HR department and what they expect of the new project, and that what they expect of tech. And there's all these stealth expectations that Brene talks about, and then everyone is disappointed. Everyone makes assumptions about what everyone else is doing and there isn't an alignment across what happens. So for me, the expectation, lowering it for ourselves and others allows us to live and work better together.

I feel like it really resonates with me. Someone close to me in my life, I feel like they're constantly just let down by other people close to them, and I look at their relationships and I think, man, their expectations are just so high what they expect from their close friends and their family, there's nowhere to go but down. And I think from observing that person, because I used to have really high expectations of my friends as well, and I would often feel let down. And I feel like it's just been in the last few years where I've been really conscious around trying to lower those expectations so I can only be pleasantly surprised with anything that comes.

I feel like it really resonates with me. Someone close to me in my life, I feel like they're constantly just let down by other people close to them, and I look at their relationships and I think, man, their expectations are just so high what they expect from their close friends and their family, there's nowhere to go but down. And I think from observing that person, because I used to have really high expectations of my friends as well, and I would often feel let down. And I feel like it's just been in the last few years where I've been really conscious around trying to lower those expectations so I can only be pleasantly surprised with anything that comes.

Absolutely and one of the things for me. But punctuality was a very important thing to me in England and it's also part of the culture. I remember if people were late, I made a massive judgment about that person. It was before mobile phones, so you're literally just waiting for someone. You have no idea if they're coming or not, and by the time they arrived, I would not be a happy camper. So I realized, okay, well, the boundary that I need to put in for myself so that I can still respect that this person and love them if they's someone that I actually love, is that I will wait for fifteen minutes and then if they don't show up, I haven't built myself up into a rage and like, how can they be so disrespectful when they should have this and why don't they value my time? I can just go I'm going to be here for fifteen minutes. The stuff happens doesn't make them a bad person. And then obviously there's a theme like as you say with your friend, you know, and I think this is one of the most beautiful things, and I need to do this As a coach. When I listen to my clients, I notice themes. So if a client comes to me constantly saying this team member this, this team member that, that colleague this, and I notice a theme. It is my job as a coach to mirror that back to them. I have noticed that there's a lot of people around you that are letting you down. And they might go, yes, yes they are, because no one is as committed as I am, bah blah blah. I go, oh, really, let's get curious about that. Is it only at work that you're feeling this sense or is this Are you noticing this in other areas, because once again, it's giving them the space to reflect.

Absolutely and one of the things for me. But punctuality was a very important thing to me in England and it's also part of the culture. I remember if people were late, I made a massive judgment about that person. It was before mobile phones, so you're literally just waiting for someone. You have no idea if they're coming or not, and by the time they arrived, I would not be a happy camper. So I realized, okay, well, the boundary that I need to put in for myself so that I can still respect that this person and love them if they's someone that I actually love, is that I will wait for fifteen minutes and then if they don't show up, I haven't built myself up into a rage and like, how can they be so disrespectful when they should have this and why don't they value my time? I can just go I'm going to be here for fifteen minutes. The stuff happens doesn't make them a bad person. And then obviously there's a theme like as you say with your friend, you know, and I think this is one of the most beautiful things, and I need to do this As a coach. When I listen to my clients, I notice themes. So if a client comes to me constantly saying this team member this, this team member that, that colleague this, and I notice a theme. It is my job as a coach to mirror that back to them. I have noticed that there's a lot of people around you that are letting you down. And they might go, yes, yes they are, because no one is as committed as I am, bah blah blah. I go, oh, really, let's get curious about that. Is it only at work that you're feeling this sense or is this Are you noticing this in other areas, because once again, it's giving them the space to reflect.

Ah.

Ah.

Maybe it's not everyone out there. Maybe I have an unconscious expectation or a conscious expectation of how people should be in the world or how they should be with me, and therefore I'm disappointed constantly. We need to put boundaries in place, because we need to have our own sense of autonomy and self esteem and confidence around you know, where we spend our time and our energy. But at the same time, no one has it all figured out all of the time, and we do need to give ourselves and each other grace.

Maybe it's not everyone out there. Maybe I have an unconscious expectation or a conscious expectation of how people should be in the world or how they should be with me, and therefore I'm disappointed constantly. We need to put boundaries in place, because we need to have our own sense of autonomy and self esteem and confidence around you know, where we spend our time and our energy. But at the same time, no one has it all figured out all of the time, and we do need to give ourselves and each other grace.

We will be back with Kemison, where she talks about how she manages to stay one hundred percent present in her coaching sessions and also the most powerful lesson that she's learnt from her coach. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot org. On the topic of your coaching sessions, what's your process for preparing for a coaching session.

We will be back with Kemison, where she talks about how she manages to stay one hundred percent present in her coaching sessions and also the most powerful lesson that she's learnt from her coach. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot org. On the topic of your coaching sessions, what's your process for preparing for a coaching session.

I make sure that I am one hundred percent present for my client, so I have quite a big gap in between my clients so that I can sit with that previous session. So I don't have an agenda for my client session. It's their session. So I will always start with the first opening question, what are we focusing on today? I will check in on any notes that I may have made from the last session. But sometimes taking notes has you not present to what's being said. You're not catching the nuances, You're not catching the tone of the emotion in their voice. You're not catching I think I heard this session four times ago. So sometimes I may have notes, sometimes I don't, but I'll always ask them, what are we focusing on today? And they may say I'm still struggling with having the conversation about my team member who is just not showing up. Or they may say I know it focusing on, you know, doing my resume for leaving corporate and maybe going into NGOs. But I have this argument with my mum at the weekend and I'm like, okay, great, let's go. And I need to be present to them so I can listen to them but also move with them, as opposed to me saying well, you came with this idea with your resume last week. Have you done your art check in with them? What actions did you take, what didn't you take? What didn't you take because you really didn't have time, and what didn't you take because it was really scary? And do you want to recommit to that action or is that action now in the past. Do you want to let go of that commitment? So for me, it's a case of being with my client and walking alongside them as they navigate their life and their leadership. It is not my role to tell a client what they should do, or what they should think, or what action they should take next. I always say unsolicited advice is what friends and family are for, but not coaches.

I make sure that I am one hundred percent present for my client, so I have quite a big gap in between my clients so that I can sit with that previous session. So I don't have an agenda for my client session. It's their session. So I will always start with the first opening question, what are we focusing on today? I will check in on any notes that I may have made from the last session. But sometimes taking notes has you not present to what's being said. You're not catching the nuances, You're not catching the tone of the emotion in their voice. You're not catching I think I heard this session four times ago. So sometimes I may have notes, sometimes I don't, but I'll always ask them, what are we focusing on today? And they may say I'm still struggling with having the conversation about my team member who is just not showing up. Or they may say I know it focusing on, you know, doing my resume for leaving corporate and maybe going into NGOs. But I have this argument with my mum at the weekend and I'm like, okay, great, let's go. And I need to be present to them so I can listen to them but also move with them, as opposed to me saying well, you came with this idea with your resume last week. Have you done your art check in with them? What actions did you take, what didn't you take? What didn't you take because you really didn't have time, and what didn't you take because it was really scary? And do you want to recommit to that action or is that action now in the past. Do you want to let go of that commitment? So for me, it's a case of being with my client and walking alongside them as they navigate their life and their leadership. It is not my role to tell a client what they should do, or what they should think, or what action they should take next. I always say unsolicited advice is what friends and family are for, but not coaches.

I lovely you say, Kenny about being one hundred percent present, But how do you achieve that? Like with all the things that are going on in this world, and I'm sure you've got a busy mind, that's like processing everything that's coming in. How are you doing that?

I lovely you say, Kenny about being one hundred percent present, But how do you achieve that? Like with all the things that are going on in this world, and I'm sure you've got a busy mind, that's like processing everything that's coming in. How are you doing that?

I don't have a busy mind. I can't do the work that I do and have a busy mind. What matters in this moment, who matters to me? And everything else I'm happy to let go. I will make sure that I don't have podcasts back to back to back to back to back. I get quite a few podcast requests. I'm not a yes to every single one of them. I'm a no to most of them, so that I don't have this sense of I'm running ahead of myself. You know, for me, when I feel overwhelmed, it's a sense of okay, so where did I say yes when I meant no? Which is less and less and less. But you know, I'm still human. Occasionally I'll get seduced, as my old coaches to say to me, don't get seduced, And I will get seduced by certain issues around people of color or women of color in the leadership space.

I don't have a busy mind. I can't do the work that I do and have a busy mind. What matters in this moment, who matters to me? And everything else I'm happy to let go. I will make sure that I don't have podcasts back to back to back to back to back. I get quite a few podcast requests. I'm not a yes to every single one of them. I'm a no to most of them, so that I don't have this sense of I'm running ahead of myself. You know, for me, when I feel overwhelmed, it's a sense of okay, so where did I say yes when I meant no? Which is less and less and less. But you know, I'm still human. Occasionally I'll get seduced, as my old coaches to say to me, don't get seduced, And I will get seduced by certain issues around people of color or women of color in the leadership space.

Your coach said around, don't get seduced. Yes, can you tell me about that?

Your coach said around, don't get seduced. Yes, can you tell me about that?

Yes? I talk about that in power actually. So a woman approached me to be a part of a book that she was doing, and just the way that she communicated with me, I was like, nah, I don't think this is going to go well. I just energetically felt there was something about the way that she shared it and there was a little bit of kind of people let me down all the time, but I can kind of trust you now. For me, that's a red flat. So I said no, and men, this was an in person at a conference many years ago. She then sent me an email and in the email she said, I know that you said no and I asked you in person, but you will be the only person of color in this book. And I think it's really important within this particular industry. And that's when I was working in the food space. It'll be really important within this particular industry to have someone of color in this book. And there was one other family that were working within the food space that were of color, and I was very attracted to their work because they were the only family of color within this particular sort of whole food food space. So I felt it for myself. I thought, well, I saw them, and I was attracted to the others. I thought, it's not just me. So then I was like, oh, and I completely overrided my initial energetic reaction to how she communicated with me and my no, and I said yes. It was a nightmare for four years because actually the book never materialized. But maybe six months later I get a request from her that was more than what had originally been the case, and then I responded, already feeling I shouldn't have said yes to this, but I said yes, and now I'm going to show up and you know, commit to what I've committed to. The next email was maybe eight months later from her telling me about all the lawyers that had come on board and she was suing another person that was going to contribute, like it just it just And I had started working with my coach around about this time, so it was great the reflection posted. So you knew that you were a no. What happened along the way that had you override your intuition? So that wisdom center of your intuition, what had you over it felt like I should, like, I know what it's like to be in an industry or to see books or to see movies or see films and not see a representation of you. And I felt I am in a position of privilege and it is kind of my duty to show up for people that look like me. So then she said, okay, so we now know that you will get seduced if it's around minorities, and I was like, yes, so and it was great. You know, that was one of the biggest things for me because even now as an executive coach, as a speaker in Australia, that is still the case. And I now have an arm of my business where I can give in that way where I am contributing, but it's not from a place of being seduced.

Yes? I talk about that in power actually. So a woman approached me to be a part of a book that she was doing, and just the way that she communicated with me, I was like, nah, I don't think this is going to go well. I just energetically felt there was something about the way that she shared it and there was a little bit of kind of people let me down all the time, but I can kind of trust you now. For me, that's a red flat. So I said no, and men, this was an in person at a conference many years ago. She then sent me an email and in the email she said, I know that you said no and I asked you in person, but you will be the only person of color in this book. And I think it's really important within this particular industry. And that's when I was working in the food space. It'll be really important within this particular industry to have someone of color in this book. And there was one other family that were working within the food space that were of color, and I was very attracted to their work because they were the only family of color within this particular sort of whole food food space. So I felt it for myself. I thought, well, I saw them, and I was attracted to the others. I thought, it's not just me. So then I was like, oh, and I completely overrided my initial energetic reaction to how she communicated with me and my no, and I said yes. It was a nightmare for four years because actually the book never materialized. But maybe six months later I get a request from her that was more than what had originally been the case, and then I responded, already feeling I shouldn't have said yes to this, but I said yes, and now I'm going to show up and you know, commit to what I've committed to. The next email was maybe eight months later from her telling me about all the lawyers that had come on board and she was suing another person that was going to contribute, like it just it just And I had started working with my coach around about this time, so it was great the reflection posted. So you knew that you were a no. What happened along the way that had you override your intuition? So that wisdom center of your intuition, what had you over it felt like I should, like, I know what it's like to be in an industry or to see books or to see movies or see films and not see a representation of you. And I felt I am in a position of privilege and it is kind of my duty to show up for people that look like me. So then she said, okay, so we now know that you will get seduced if it's around minorities, and I was like, yes, so and it was great. You know, that was one of the biggest things for me because even now as an executive coach, as a speaker in Australia, that is still the case. And I now have an arm of my business where I can give in that way where I am contributing, but it's not from a place of being seduced.

Wow. What a powerful lesson to learn.

Wow. What a powerful lesson to learn.

Very much, so very much. So.

Very much, so very much. So.

Yeah, what have been one or two other of the most powerful things you've learned from your coach over the last couple of years.

Yeah, what have been one or two other of the most powerful things you've learned from your coach over the last couple of years.

I'm so glad that you asked me this question because I want to share this with everyone in the world. And she's no longer my coach, but I will share. Her name is Belinda Mcinness. She's an International Coach Federation credentialed like myself, but she's a master master coach. She said to me, don't go to the butcher for bread. And it was in regard to a relationship where I was wanting or hoping for something that had never materialized in that relationship. Was a working relationship, wasn't an intimate relationship. It was something like, let's go back to punctuality. It was something like, this person is always late. They're always late. I don't know why they're not always late. And she was like, have they ever been on time? No? She was okay, so you're expecting them to be on time and yet from the moment you've met them, they've never been on time. So just this idea of we'll have expectations of people and I have. You know, it can be with parents. You know. I have worked with enough clients where their parents, whether they're still living or whether they have passed, they are still wanting from their parents a sense of recognition or acknowledgment of longing or worthiness. And I was working with a client just last year in her mid fifties CEO role, and she was wanting this recognition from her mom. Who comes from the generation of being at home didn't understand the working mom. This did not understand that at all. And my client wanted her mom to say to her, I am proud of you for juggling everything you're juggling and the model that you're being for your children. And I said to my client, don't go to the butcher for bread. And she said, what do you mean. I said, has your mum ever ever giving you a sense that she appreciates or of knowledges or understands what it is that you are managing in your life right now? And she said no. And I said, but the thing is is that there are people in your life that give you that all that you can ask. But to keep going back to the same person asking them for something that they have never given you does not serve It doesn't serve us. It actually will generally have our sense of self lowered as a host to enhanced. So that was one of the other things that my coach talked to me. And I think we all have circumstances in our lives who were expecting things from other people that they have never promised us, that they have never shown us, and yet somehow we keep going back hoping.

I'm so glad that you asked me this question because I want to share this with everyone in the world. And she's no longer my coach, but I will share. Her name is Belinda Mcinness. She's an International Coach Federation credentialed like myself, but she's a master master coach. She said to me, don't go to the butcher for bread. And it was in regard to a relationship where I was wanting or hoping for something that had never materialized in that relationship. Was a working relationship, wasn't an intimate relationship. It was something like, let's go back to punctuality. It was something like, this person is always late. They're always late. I don't know why they're not always late. And she was like, have they ever been on time? No? She was okay, so you're expecting them to be on time and yet from the moment you've met them, they've never been on time. So just this idea of we'll have expectations of people and I have. You know, it can be with parents. You know. I have worked with enough clients where their parents, whether they're still living or whether they have passed, they are still wanting from their parents a sense of recognition or acknowledgment of longing or worthiness. And I was working with a client just last year in her mid fifties CEO role, and she was wanting this recognition from her mom. Who comes from the generation of being at home didn't understand the working mom. This did not understand that at all. And my client wanted her mom to say to her, I am proud of you for juggling everything you're juggling and the model that you're being for your children. And I said to my client, don't go to the butcher for bread. And she said, what do you mean. I said, has your mum ever ever giving you a sense that she appreciates or of knowledges or understands what it is that you are managing in your life right now? And she said no. And I said, but the thing is is that there are people in your life that give you that all that you can ask. But to keep going back to the same person asking them for something that they have never given you does not serve It doesn't serve us. It actually will generally have our sense of self lowered as a host to enhanced. So that was one of the other things that my coach talked to me. And I think we all have circumstances in our lives who were expecting things from other people that they have never promised us, that they have never shown us, and yet somehow we keep going back hoping.

Ah, I love that. Don't go to the butcher for bread.

Ah, I love that. Don't go to the butcher for bread.

Yeah, because they're bakers everywhere. But if you keep going back to the butcher, you don't even know where the baker is. Now. The baker's got lots of bread.

Yeah, because they're bakers everywhere. But if you keep going back to the butcher, you don't even know where the baker is. Now. The baker's got lots of bread.

I guess if you want steak, then go to the butchat.

I guess if you want steak, then go to the butchat.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, Kemmy, I have just loved this chat. I'm just so grateful that you made the time and said yes to this chat. I've just learned so much, so thank you.

Oh, Kemmy, I have just loved this chat. I'm just so grateful that you made the time and said yes to this chat. I've just learned so much, so thank you.

Oh, thank you so much, Amantha. I absolutely adore the work that you're putting out into the world, and it was a very, very easy yes. So I'm glad we spent this time together to thank you.

Oh, thank you so much, Amantha. I absolutely adore the work that you're putting out into the world, and it was a very, very easy yes. So I'm glad we spent this time together to thank you.

I hope you enjoyed this chat with Kemmy, and if you did, I highly recommend getting your hands on her most recent book. And you can also find out more about Kemy at kemynekfopill dot com. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love to ask a favor. Click follow on the podcast app that you're listening to this on, and if you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show. Following this podcast and Leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, and your support is one of the things that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your day with me by listening to How I Work. If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able to work and live on this beautiful land and I want to pay my respects to elder's past, present and How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. The episode producer was Rowena Murray, and thank you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.

I hope you enjoyed this chat with Kemmy, and if you did, I highly recommend getting your hands on her most recent book. And you can also find out more about Kemy at kemynekfopill dot com. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love to ask a favor. Click follow on the podcast app that you're listening to this on, and if you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show. Following this podcast and Leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, and your support is one of the things that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your day with me by listening to How I Work. If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able to work and live on this beautiful land and I want to pay my respects to elder's past, present and How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. The episode producer was Rowena Murray, and thank you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.