Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is good weekend talks a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms take a deep dive into the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with acclaimed journalist, broadcaster and author Julia Baird. Pick up a copy of the current issue of Good Weekend and you'll find an excerpt from her latest book, a moving extract about the grief she experienced when a former partner was killed in a plane crash. The pace ruminates on how, as an ex-girlfriend then living abroad, Baird was unsure where to place her sorrow, inviting questions about the responsibility we have to relationships even when they don't endure. The book itself is called bright, Shining and hosting this conversation with Baird about her published exploration of grace, what it is, where to find it, and how to cultivate it in our lives is good weekend, senior writer Amanda Hooton.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is good weekend talks a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms take a deep dive into the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with acclaimed journalist, broadcaster and author Julia Baird. Pick up a copy of the current issue of Good Weekend and you'll find an excerpt from her latest book, a moving extract about the grief she experienced when a former partner was killed in a plane crash. The pace ruminates on how, as an ex-girlfriend then living abroad, Baird was unsure where to place her sorrow, inviting questions about the responsibility we have to relationships even when they don't endure. The book itself is called bright, Shining and hosting this conversation with Baird about her published exploration of grace, what it is, where to find it, and how to cultivate it in our lives is good weekend, senior writer Amanda Hooton.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Julia. Such a pleasure. It's great to have you here. Look, of course I know that many of our readers will know of you from your columns, both here and overseas in the newspaper and your work as a broadcaster on the ABC, and perhaps most brilliantly of all, from your 2019 book phosphorescence, which was such a great, great book and also a massive bestseller both here and overseas. And now you've written another book called Bright Shining About Grace. So perhaps we could begin by talking about what prompted you to write that book, what was happening in your own life? Were there particular experiences that made you think you wanted to sort of explore this particular idea in book form?

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Julia. Such a pleasure. It's great to have you here. Look, of course I know that many of our readers will know of you from your columns, both here and overseas in the newspaper and your work as a broadcaster on the ABC, and perhaps most brilliantly of all, from your 2019 book phosphorescence, which was such a great, great book and also a massive bestseller both here and overseas. And now you've written another book called Bright Shining About Grace. So perhaps we could begin by talking about what prompted you to write that book, what was happening in your own life? Were there particular experiences that made you think you wanted to sort of explore this particular idea in book form?

It's something I've thought about a lot, probably because my mother was very into it. One of those things that your mother really instills in you. And I saw her kind of practice grace a lot, but it was really after writing phosphorescence and during a time of Covid, when I had all this correspondence from people hungering for ways we can talk to each other about the things that we share about hunting or, and about wonder and about what this means in our lives. And one of, I think, the most common form of awe is moral. Beauty is witnessing another person's acts of compassion or kindness or generosity or courage. And there's been a study out recently, which was I think it's still under review, but by Keltner from the University of California in Berkeley and saying that that is exactly what they found. Like, people talk about waterfalls and big like natural world experiences, but the most common thing was seeing the kindness of a neighbor or the devotion of a blood donor, a lot of whom I spoke for this book, or people who look after those living with disabilities or. And it's what what George Eliot called those tiny historic acts. So I, you know, and I did go through another time of illness myself writing this book, and it was like something I held onto, like this thing of beauty, even in the midst of all the crap, and especially if you're in a medical environment, you see the way the nurses behave, you see the way emergency departments operate. And we depend on that. We kind of realized in Covid, right, how much we all depend on those people who are often not paid nearly enough, but kind of give us these kind of caring, gentle gestures at the time of our greatest vulnerability. So I really wanted to explore it and go, what is this thing like? When do we see it? What happens to people who, you know, experience it both as giver and receiver, and what would happen if we have more of it in our lives?

It's something I've thought about a lot, probably because my mother was very into it. One of those things that your mother really instills in you. And I saw her kind of practice grace a lot, but it was really after writing phosphorescence and during a time of Covid, when I had all this correspondence from people hungering for ways we can talk to each other about the things that we share about hunting or, and about wonder and about what this means in our lives. And one of, I think, the most common form of awe is moral. Beauty is witnessing another person's acts of compassion or kindness or generosity or courage. And there's been a study out recently, which was I think it's still under review, but by Keltner from the University of California in Berkeley and saying that that is exactly what they found. Like, people talk about waterfalls and big like natural world experiences, but the most common thing was seeing the kindness of a neighbor or the devotion of a blood donor, a lot of whom I spoke for this book, or people who look after those living with disabilities or. And it's what what George Eliot called those tiny historic acts. So I, you know, and I did go through another time of illness myself writing this book, and it was like something I held onto, like this thing of beauty, even in the midst of all the crap, and especially if you're in a medical environment, you see the way the nurses behave, you see the way emergency departments operate. And we depend on that. We kind of realized in Covid, right, how much we all depend on those people who are often not paid nearly enough, but kind of give us these kind of caring, gentle gestures at the time of our greatest vulnerability. So I really wanted to explore it and go, what is this thing like? When do we see it? What happens to people who, you know, experience it both as giver and receiver, and what would happen if we have more of it in our lives?

Exactly. But let's begin by how would you define it? Let's come to some sense of how you defined it in the book. It's something that, as you say, we can both give and receive and it operates on many levels, doesn't it? It's not just a sort of absolutely extraordinary gesture. It can be a kind of detail of sort of everyday life. Yes. It sort of happens in all places at all times. There's that potential, I guess. And in that way, maybe it's a little bit like awe and wonder that it doesn't have to be. You don't have to be standing at Niagara Falls. Exactly.

Exactly. But let's begin by how would you define it? Let's come to some sense of how you defined it in the book. It's something that, as you say, we can both give and receive and it operates on many levels, doesn't it? It's not just a sort of absolutely extraordinary gesture. It can be a kind of detail of sort of everyday life. Yes. It sort of happens in all places at all times. There's that potential, I guess. And in that way, maybe it's a little bit like awe and wonder that it doesn't have to be. You don't have to be standing at Niagara Falls. Exactly.

You can be watching a little like plant push through the soil and being, oh, or there's this little today I just went and looked at it. There's this little tree hollow down in this kind of big, big park down my road, and I discovered some little baby lorikeets, and they start off like gray and fluffy. And I went and looked at it this morning and they're just starting to get colors. They just had a couple of these little fluff balls, and they look hilarious because they are almost perfectly round.

You can be watching a little like plant push through the soil and being, oh, or there's this little today I just went and looked at it. There's this little tree hollow down in this kind of big, big park down my road, and I discovered some little baby lorikeets, and they start off like gray and fluffy. And I went and looked at it this morning and they're just starting to get colors. They just had a couple of these little fluff balls, and they look hilarious because they are almost perfectly round.

And the warmest beak.

And the warmest beak.

The beak is starting. There was color on the face, and I was just so excited this morning saying that.

The beak is starting. There was color on the face, and I was just so excited this morning saying that.

So what is that? Is that.

So what is that? Is that.

Or is that.

Or is that.

Is or is that grace? I mean, how would you how would you define grace?

Is or is that grace? I mean, how would you how would you define grace?

Yeah. Like I really struggle with that because it seems that it's hard is a kind of a mystery. Like you know it when you see it, but you don't fully understand it. And so many great authors have written about that and said that it's ultimately mysterious. I mean, Helen, Helen Garner is kind of kind of one of them. And you can't demand it. You can't force it. That kind of takes away from all the ideas of grace. But I decided there was kind of three parts to it. Firstly, I think it's I do see it as like Marilynne Robinson calls it an extraordinary kind of goodness. So it's something remarkable and something exceptional. It's now it is kindness, but it's really kind of goes beyond that. So firstly, it's undeserved.

Yeah. Like I really struggle with that because it seems that it's hard is a kind of a mystery. Like you know it when you see it, but you don't fully understand it. And so many great authors have written about that and said that it's ultimately mysterious. I mean, Helen, Helen Garner is kind of kind of one of them. And you can't demand it. You can't force it. That kind of takes away from all the ideas of grace. But I decided there was kind of three parts to it. Firstly, I think it's I do see it as like Marilynne Robinson calls it an extraordinary kind of goodness. So it's something remarkable and something exceptional. It's now it is kindness, but it's really kind of goes beyond that. So firstly, it's undeserved.

That's right. Yes. I thought that was really crucial. Yeah.

That's right. Yes. I thought that was really crucial. Yeah.

And it's, it's, you know, mercy not merit.

And it's, it's, you know, mercy not merit.

Imagine it. Yes.

Imagine it. Yes.

To really do a good act for someone who does not deserve it is a fundamentally powerful thing to witness like. And secondly, it is recognizing another person's humanity that we all make mistakes, that we all. Even great writers like George Orwell, as we spoke.

To really do a good act for someone who does not deserve it is a fundamentally powerful thing to witness like. And secondly, it is recognizing another person's humanity that we all make mistakes, that we all. Even great writers like George Orwell, as we spoke.

About.

About.

Who treated his wife so badly and yet wrote tremendous prose, and we very over history as to what we forgive and what we don't, and what we allow for culturally and what we don't. But giving people the benefit of the doubt comes out of humanity. Restorative justice conferences. When you sit down and can recognize that someone might have had a really crappy childhood, might have had to be really struggling with addiction. There's a reason why they got to that point that they did what they did. Those things of I think are really fundamental to grace. There is a point at which you say, oh, look, I would be capable of whatever in a different circumstance. Who knows? You know, it's just walking in another shoes is the way people often put it. Right. And I really did land on a third way, which takes me back to the rainbow lorikeets, fluff balls. But like, I think living in this, this earth is so magnificent, so heavily burdened, so under threat, but to live in it and respect it and respect its potency and understand it because we don't deserve it.

Who treated his wife so badly and yet wrote tremendous prose, and we very over history as to what we forgive and what we don't, and what we allow for culturally and what we don't. But giving people the benefit of the doubt comes out of humanity. Restorative justice conferences. When you sit down and can recognize that someone might have had a really crappy childhood, might have had to be really struggling with addiction. There's a reason why they got to that point that they did what they did. Those things of I think are really fundamental to grace. There is a point at which you say, oh, look, I would be capable of whatever in a different circumstance. Who knows? You know, it's just walking in another shoes is the way people often put it. Right. And I really did land on a third way, which takes me back to the rainbow lorikeets, fluff balls. But like, I think living in this, this earth is so magnificent, so heavily burdened, so under threat, but to live in it and respect it and respect its potency and understand it because we don't deserve it.

No, that's right.

No, that's right.

We do nothing to deserve the sunsets and sunrises and just the beauty that is all around us all the time. And yet we live in it. And to me, to be kind of powerfully, thrillingly alive is, yes.

We do nothing to deserve the sunsets and sunrises and just the beauty that is all around us all the time. And yet we live in it. And to me, to be kind of powerfully, thrillingly alive is, yes.

To appreciate it fully. Yeah. As fully as we can. Yeah. I mean, you had a lovely example which kind of struck me, which was, you know, we're talking about just driving in your car, and when people cut you off or beep at you or do something and just instead of just feeling immediately enraged, actually thinking, oh, that person might be having a completely terrible day, or be rushing to get somewhere or freaking out about some disaster in their lives, be.

To appreciate it fully. Yeah. As fully as we can. Yeah. I mean, you had a lovely example which kind of struck me, which was, you know, we're talking about just driving in your car, and when people cut you off or beep at you or do something and just instead of just feeling immediately enraged, actually thinking, oh, that person might be having a completely terrible day, or be rushing to get somewhere or freaking out about some disaster in their lives, be.

In some domestic abuse situation, or just having a spouse tell them they don't love them, or have a child who's got terrible medical news or yeah, you don't know. Because if anyone's been in that kind of situation and you know, you've been through a situation of grief, someone you really love recently, and on that day, you know, imagine walking down the street afterwards and having someone, you know, be mean to you, just cut you off or shout at you and you want to go. Don't you know the.

In some domestic abuse situation, or just having a spouse tell them they don't love them, or have a child who's got terrible medical news or yeah, you don't know. Because if anyone's been in that kind of situation and you know, you've been through a situation of grief, someone you really love recently, and on that day, you know, imagine walking down the street afterwards and having someone, you know, be mean to you, just cut you off or shout at you and you want to go. Don't you know the.

Pain in my.

Pain in my.

Heart right now? Do you not know? Like. Because if you did, you wouldn't do that to me?

Heart right now? Do you not know? Like. Because if you did, you wouldn't do that to me?

No. And so if we can bear that in mind about others, that's a moment where we can think to ourselves. When someone does that dreadful thing, we can forgive them when they cut us off. It's not such a dreadful thing, but it feels bad in that moment. And so in that moment, by forgiving them or giving them a pass, as you say, they don't deserve it. They've been rude. But by us saying, well, maybe they've had a terrible day or a terrible experience, that's us actually offering a moment of grace to someone else. Is that what you would say, just quietly and actually to ourselves in a strange kind of a way, because it releases us from the anger and, you know, the negativity of that moment?

No. And so if we can bear that in mind about others, that's a moment where we can think to ourselves. When someone does that dreadful thing, we can forgive them when they cut us off. It's not such a dreadful thing, but it feels bad in that moment. And so in that moment, by forgiving them or giving them a pass, as you say, they don't deserve it. They've been rude. But by us saying, well, maybe they've had a terrible day or a terrible experience, that's us actually offering a moment of grace to someone else. Is that what you would say, just quietly and actually to ourselves in a strange kind of a way, because it releases us from the anger and, you know, the negativity of that moment?

Exactly. I think that's a really fundamental thing, because I spent a lot of time wrestling with forgiveness and what it means in this, and there's a lot of people who talk about those who don't deserve forgiveness, because I think a very fundamental part is repair. And yes, justice have to be there to forgive, but sometimes it's almost impossible. What happens when you don't get those things? And is there a way to, instead of using the word forgiveness and unburdening, how do I leave what they did to me with them? You did that. It's about you. It's your shame. Right? And I think that's a and.

Exactly. I think that's a really fundamental thing, because I spent a lot of time wrestling with forgiveness and what it means in this, and there's a lot of people who talk about those who don't deserve forgiveness, because I think a very fundamental part is repair. And yes, justice have to be there to forgive, but sometimes it's almost impossible. What happens when you don't get those things? And is there a way to, instead of using the word forgiveness and unburdening, how do I leave what they did to me with them? You did that. It's about you. It's your shame. Right? And I think that's a and.

That's what Grace can give us in somehow releasing that we can then feel a whole lot better ourselves.

That's what Grace can give us in somehow releasing that we can then feel a whole lot better ourselves.

Exactly. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of science to show that even there's a study about showing giving people the benefit of the doubt. Those who do it are more likely to be kind of more content and healthier individuals.

Exactly. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of science to show that even there's a study about showing giving people the benefit of the doubt. Those who do it are more likely to be kind of more content and healthier individuals.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right. And then I immediately thought of a friend of mine who always gives people the benefit of the doubt, but to are like a ludicrous point, you know, like she's always like, oh, I just wonder what their intention was. It always goes back to that. And you know what? She is such a sunny person. Yeah, right. And I love being around her. So yeah, that study totally reminded me of her.

That's right. And then I immediately thought of a friend of mine who always gives people the benefit of the doubt, but to are like a ludicrous point, you know, like she's always like, oh, I just wonder what their intention was. It always goes back to that. And you know what? She is such a sunny person. Yeah, right. And I love being around her. So yeah, that study totally reminded me of her.

You mentioned the idea of grief, and there's that chapter in which you talk about the loss of your dear friend. And and he was a friend of mine as well. But you're very dear friend and former partner, Morgan Mellish, who died tragically in a plane accident many years ago. What was your experience of grace in the midst of grief? Did you have any any sort of alleviation of that incredible sadness?

You mentioned the idea of grief, and there's that chapter in which you talk about the loss of your dear friend. And and he was a friend of mine as well. But you're very dear friend and former partner, Morgan Mellish, who died tragically in a plane accident many years ago. What was your experience of grace in the midst of grief? Did you have any any sort of alleviation of that incredible sadness?

I think that you have to hold on to the good stuff in times like that. Like we were together for five years. We lived together. We went through a lot together. And what compelled me to write it was reading this Jack Gilbert poem which says that people forget that before Icarus fell, he flew. And I really feel people often talk about, oh, that was the thing that didn't work. And this was a real bummer. And they talk about the end of a relationship or the negativity, and they forget about the flying man. They forget about the triumph and the beauty and the the times that you had. And that's so resonated with me. And that's why after reading that is when I sat down to write that chapter. And I also just think that it just makes me so acutely conscious that even if you're in a relationship that won't go forever, we have such a responsibility to care for each other like such an honor to have such intimacy with a person and how it's honest. And so I met up with his ex-girlfriend that he was with when he died. I was in Ningaloo actually doing some writing. I wrote that chapter over there, and I just emailed her out of the blue. When I was looking at the sunset one, I was like, I wonder how nila is because, you know, like in the middle of all of that. What a horrible shock. And she was like she wrote in a second, she wrote back this warm, lovely thing about the grief and how she cried two times a day. She had to move cities and countries, but she has really done amazing things with her life. She's been an Eisenhower fellow, Atlantic fellow. She's set up like 200 not for profit children's libraries across Indonesia. And so we had this. She was like, if you're in Perth, come and catch up. And I was there like two days later because I was flying through it. So we had this lovely time together. So and she told me about how much she'd gone with that library. Well, why wait? I'll do it now. Like why wait? Yes, exactly. I think that's really important.

I think that you have to hold on to the good stuff in times like that. Like we were together for five years. We lived together. We went through a lot together. And what compelled me to write it was reading this Jack Gilbert poem which says that people forget that before Icarus fell, he flew. And I really feel people often talk about, oh, that was the thing that didn't work. And this was a real bummer. And they talk about the end of a relationship or the negativity, and they forget about the flying man. They forget about the triumph and the beauty and the the times that you had. And that's so resonated with me. And that's why after reading that is when I sat down to write that chapter. And I also just think that it just makes me so acutely conscious that even if you're in a relationship that won't go forever, we have such a responsibility to care for each other like such an honor to have such intimacy with a person and how it's honest. And so I met up with his ex-girlfriend that he was with when he died. I was in Ningaloo actually doing some writing. I wrote that chapter over there, and I just emailed her out of the blue. When I was looking at the sunset one, I was like, I wonder how nila is because, you know, like in the middle of all of that. What a horrible shock. And she was like she wrote in a second, she wrote back this warm, lovely thing about the grief and how she cried two times a day. She had to move cities and countries, but she has really done amazing things with her life. She's been an Eisenhower fellow, Atlantic fellow. She's set up like 200 not for profit children's libraries across Indonesia. And so we had this. She was like, if you're in Perth, come and catch up. And I was there like two days later because I was flying through it. So we had this lovely time together. So and she told me about how much she'd gone with that library. Well, why wait? I'll do it now. Like why wait? Yes, exactly. I think that's really important.

That lovely, that something beautiful comes out of that sadness. And look, I thought that was such a brilliant chapter because I think so much that we are sort of steered by society somehow. There is this moment where when a relationship ends, it kind of becomes the thing that you have to do is to talk about the ending and to sort of think of it as a failure because it didn't last forever or whatever. But when you actually think about it, I mean, one would hope and certainly I think it's a very common experience, that huge parts of relationships are full of joy, and that's why we have them. And then things go horribly wrong. And that may last a while. And but then it ends. But that's right. It's almost like we're not allowed to talk about the joy and the successes of the relationship once it's finished. Kind of by definition, none of that counts anymore.

That lovely, that something beautiful comes out of that sadness. And look, I thought that was such a brilliant chapter because I think so much that we are sort of steered by society somehow. There is this moment where when a relationship ends, it kind of becomes the thing that you have to do is to talk about the ending and to sort of think of it as a failure because it didn't last forever or whatever. But when you actually think about it, I mean, one would hope and certainly I think it's a very common experience, that huge parts of relationships are full of joy, and that's why we have them. And then things go horribly wrong. And that may last a while. And but then it ends. But that's right. It's almost like we're not allowed to talk about the joy and the successes of the relationship once it's finished. Kind of by definition, none of that counts anymore.

And sometimes to exit is a success in itself. Yes. I'm not talking about a conscious uncoupling situation. I mean good good for people who can pull that off. But you know, but it's more that you rather than like, stay in something in which you may not both flourish, just say, okay, yeah, this has been all these great things. And now, yes, no, I'm going to free you to find a person who will be ex and I'll have a crack life. You know.

And sometimes to exit is a success in itself. Yes. I'm not talking about a conscious uncoupling situation. I mean good good for people who can pull that off. But you know, but it's more that you rather than like, stay in something in which you may not both flourish, just say, okay, yeah, this has been all these great things. And now, yes, no, I'm going to free you to find a person who will be ex and I'll have a crack life. You know.

It's like leaving the party while you're still having a good time. Although neither of us are very good at that, I think. No.

It's like leaving the party while you're still having a good time. Although neither of us are very good at that, I think. No.

Instead of bitter end.

Instead of bitter end.

That's right. Exactly. Maybe there's a lesson in that. Look, I mean, I was really when I began this book, I was really intrigued by the title to start with Bright Shining, which is such a beautiful title, but it's also really resonant of the gorgeous Christian hymn amazing Grace. That's where it's from, of course, but it made me wonder if it was going to be a book about religion in some way, because I think that's often where people are familiar with the term grace used in this context as something that is religious. You know, certainly in Christianity it's the idea of God given grace. But how important is religion to grace? Do you need to have a sort of a religious practice in your life to experience it? It doesn't seem so at all.

That's right. Exactly. Maybe there's a lesson in that. Look, I mean, I was really when I began this book, I was really intrigued by the title to start with Bright Shining, which is such a beautiful title, but it's also really resonant of the gorgeous Christian hymn amazing Grace. That's where it's from, of course, but it made me wonder if it was going to be a book about religion in some way, because I think that's often where people are familiar with the term grace used in this context as something that is religious. You know, certainly in Christianity it's the idea of God given grace. But how important is religion to grace? Do you need to have a sort of a religious practice in your life to experience it? It doesn't seem so at all.

No, I that's right. I mean, I think the bright shining is I really love I love that him and I love the way people sing it. As I found doing this when they're often just stuck for words like Obama. Oh yes. After the massacre, what was it? Reverend Pinkness funeral just started to sing, and it's the most powerful moment.

No, I that's right. I mean, I think the bright shining is I really love I love that him and I love the way people sing it. As I found doing this when they're often just stuck for words like Obama. Oh yes. After the massacre, what was it? Reverend Pinkness funeral just started to sing, and it's the most powerful moment.

A may the engrave. Has we? He does.

A may the engrave. Has we? He does.

Um. That's a. Same.

Um. That's a. Same.

And the fact that it was written by a slave trader who then repented, and then it became the anthem of the civil rights movement. There's so much in that. Yeah. And bright, shining as the sun about a future, about a future of equality, a future of justice. And it is obviously a key part of faith, a key part of the Christian faith, that people are forgiven for their sins and they don't deserve it fundamentally. And it's it's core to other faiths as well, where there's a strong emphasis on forgiveness and on caring for other people. But I really think that we don't talk about it enough in a secular sense. We don't talk about the little axe, the historic axe, you know, the ways we act towards each other that show grace. I think sometimes we're stuck for words, for those things. Yeah. And I think that's what I was I was seeking, I was really kind of throwing the net far wider. Yeah.

And the fact that it was written by a slave trader who then repented, and then it became the anthem of the civil rights movement. There's so much in that. Yeah. And bright, shining as the sun about a future, about a future of equality, a future of justice. And it is obviously a key part of faith, a key part of the Christian faith, that people are forgiven for their sins and they don't deserve it fundamentally. And it's it's core to other faiths as well, where there's a strong emphasis on forgiveness and on caring for other people. But I really think that we don't talk about it enough in a secular sense. We don't talk about the little axe, the historic axe, you know, the ways we act towards each other that show grace. I think sometimes we're stuck for words, for those things. Yeah. And I think that's what I was I was seeking, I was really kind of throwing the net far wider. Yeah.

Than a strictly kind of religious definition. Yeah. I mean, it made me think about the way we perceive grace. And perhaps the reason it is often discussed in the context of religion is that idea of undeserved forgiveness. I mean, there's there is so much power in that idea, isn't it? And I think perhaps it's also a recognition of how hard it can be. You know, that maybe you do need to be the Son of God to actually bring yourself to, to to forgive people when they don't, when they, you know, at least in your mind they don't deserve it. Right? But I mean, how you talk in the beginning of the pod about the nurses that you saw in and the kind of professions that that we're surrounded by all the time, I mean, that that exhibit grace as just almost a part of their profession. I absolutely love that story you told about a nurse. You were in hospital and he was shouting to you, you are okay. You are a strong and intelligent woman, just like David Marr.

Than a strictly kind of religious definition. Yeah. I mean, it made me think about the way we perceive grace. And perhaps the reason it is often discussed in the context of religion is that idea of undeserved forgiveness. I mean, there's there is so much power in that idea, isn't it? And I think perhaps it's also a recognition of how hard it can be. You know, that maybe you do need to be the Son of God to actually bring yourself to, to to forgive people when they don't, when they, you know, at least in your mind they don't deserve it. Right? But I mean, how you talk in the beginning of the pod about the nurses that you saw in and the kind of professions that that we're surrounded by all the time, I mean, that that exhibit grace as just almost a part of their profession. I absolutely love that story you told about a nurse. You were in hospital and he was shouting to you, you are okay. You are a strong and intelligent woman, just like David Marr.

I was so good, just so great.

I was so good, just so great.

What a compliment.

What a compliment.

He made me laugh so much. He really loved the Harold and he would come in and talk to me about how much he loved David, moan and come and talk to me about my columns. And I'd just be lying there with like, tubes coming out of me, like, okay, okay. And on that night, like, he was literally rubbing my rubbing the top of my arm, telling me it's like it was just as strong, an intelligent woman like David Marr. I was like, I cannot wait to tell him that. Um, look, I think that also when you talk about looping that back to your point about religion as well, I think it's for a long time Grace has been almost spoken about like a saccharine, almost simpering thing and things that women are supposed to be like, full of grace, which means compliant, which means obedient sometimes and sweet. Yeah. And putting.

He made me laugh so much. He really loved the Harold and he would come in and talk to me about how much he loved David, moan and come and talk to me about my columns. And I'd just be lying there with like, tubes coming out of me, like, okay, okay. And on that night, like, he was literally rubbing my rubbing the top of my arm, telling me it's like it was just as strong, an intelligent woman like David Marr. I was like, I cannot wait to tell him that. Um, look, I think that also when you talk about looping that back to your point about religion as well, I think it's for a long time Grace has been almost spoken about like a saccharine, almost simpering thing and things that women are supposed to be like, full of grace, which means compliant, which means obedient sometimes and sweet. Yeah. And putting.

Up with stuff.

Up with stuff.

That's exactly greeting.

That's exactly greeting.

Greeting, adversity and nastiness in a.

Greeting, adversity and nastiness in a.

Kind of pure misogyny. Exactly. Sexual abuse and assault. And you're just supposed to, like, keep it sweet as that Mormon used to tell their women to do, which I fundamentally disagree with. Yeah, I saw powerful examples of grace in a lot of equality movements and justice movements, which I spoke about here, but I really thought of it. Grace is like the sun, like it looks. It warms us, it fuels us. But it you get up close to the sun. It is so noisy. I was so glad that noise cannot travel through space. It's like 100,000 leaf blowers or something or going at one time just screaming. It screams all the time and they smashes all the time. But it's all about fusion. It's about the connections between each other. So I think people think that, oh, you just wake up and you're sure someone murdered my brother. But I forgive you, mate. Like, no, no, you might make the decision to, but you will have to. You have to make that decision again and again and again. And it is hard. Like, it takes so much grit and so much strength to do that. And Danny Abdullah says that, whose children were, I think three children and a cousin were run over by a guy who was high. He's spoken a lot about forgiveness, and he says he has to keep waking up and doing it. Like, I think we have to understand that it is not something that comes easily, that's poured out like honey, like treacle over porridge, you know it is. It's hard when you get to fundamental deep hurts and pains and, you know, big cultural wounds. What do you do? And I spend a lot of time wrestling with that. Yeah.

Kind of pure misogyny. Exactly. Sexual abuse and assault. And you're just supposed to, like, keep it sweet as that Mormon used to tell their women to do, which I fundamentally disagree with. Yeah, I saw powerful examples of grace in a lot of equality movements and justice movements, which I spoke about here, but I really thought of it. Grace is like the sun, like it looks. It warms us, it fuels us. But it you get up close to the sun. It is so noisy. I was so glad that noise cannot travel through space. It's like 100,000 leaf blowers or something or going at one time just screaming. It screams all the time and they smashes all the time. But it's all about fusion. It's about the connections between each other. So I think people think that, oh, you just wake up and you're sure someone murdered my brother. But I forgive you, mate. Like, no, no, you might make the decision to, but you will have to. You have to make that decision again and again and again. And it is hard. Like, it takes so much grit and so much strength to do that. And Danny Abdullah says that, whose children were, I think three children and a cousin were run over by a guy who was high. He's spoken a lot about forgiveness, and he says he has to keep waking up and doing it. Like, I think we have to understand that it is not something that comes easily, that's poured out like honey, like treacle over porridge, you know it is. It's hard when you get to fundamental deep hurts and pains and, you know, big cultural wounds. What do you do? And I spend a lot of time wrestling with that. Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting that you mention a cultural thing because one of the things I was thinking about when I was thinking about the nurses was thinking, well, are there ways that we could encourage other professions or other groups of people to show more grace in their lives? And how might that sort of change the society we live in? I mean, is that possible, do you think, is it is it possible to sort of institutionalize grace, or is it, by its nature, really personal thing?

I mean, it's interesting that you mention a cultural thing because one of the things I was thinking about when I was thinking about the nurses was thinking, well, are there ways that we could encourage other professions or other groups of people to show more grace in their lives? And how might that sort of change the society we live in? I mean, is that possible, do you think, is it is it possible to sort of institutionalize grace, or is it, by its nature, really personal thing?

I think institutionalizing anything is really difficult, but I think that you can see it everywhere. Look, with nursing, it's really palpable right there, literally caring for you, easing your pain, comforting you. And I found these two women, I don't know if you remember during Covid, and there was a story of two Brazilian nurses who got these rubber gloves and filled them with warm water and tied them together and slipped them over the hands of the Covid patients who were dying, basically, who were really, really ill because their family couldn't be there. And it was they called them the hands of love. Or and I contacted them and they were so beautiful. They were amazed at the response that they'd had. They just like it was breaking them to see all these people on their own at such a time. And they immediately saw the reaction, the physical calming in the people who were in that kind of distress. And they were just like, look, that could be that person is someone's, you know, mother, brother, cousin, like lover. It's it's what we need, what we need to do in practical ways. If you're in other professions, there's a lot of studies around the idea of moral elevation, which is if you see in the leadership of a company, people being generous, people being cut some slack, people being like actually modeling the hard work ethic themselves, that has a real impact on, on on the whole culture.

I think institutionalizing anything is really difficult, but I think that you can see it everywhere. Look, with nursing, it's really palpable right there, literally caring for you, easing your pain, comforting you. And I found these two women, I don't know if you remember during Covid, and there was a story of two Brazilian nurses who got these rubber gloves and filled them with warm water and tied them together and slipped them over the hands of the Covid patients who were dying, basically, who were really, really ill because their family couldn't be there. And it was they called them the hands of love. Or and I contacted them and they were so beautiful. They were amazed at the response that they'd had. They just like it was breaking them to see all these people on their own at such a time. And they immediately saw the reaction, the physical calming in the people who were in that kind of distress. And they were just like, look, that could be that person is someone's, you know, mother, brother, cousin, like lover. It's it's what we need, what we need to do in practical ways. If you're in other professions, there's a lot of studies around the idea of moral elevation, which is if you see in the leadership of a company, people being generous, people being cut some slack, people being like actually modeling the hard work ethic themselves, that has a real impact on, on on the whole culture.

Yeah I.

Yeah I.

See. And it's called a virtuous upward spiral. It really does. I think it can be in any culture. And I think it really impacts people. Yeah, yeah.

See. And it's called a virtuous upward spiral. It really does. I think it can be in any culture. And I think it really impacts people. Yeah, yeah.

I think maybe something that would that sort of prevents it in that sort of institutionalized sense is that it has to be kind of voluntary, doesn't it? You know, you can't if you're forcing someone to do a good deed or to be generous, then it's no longer.

I think maybe something that would that sort of prevents it in that sort of institutionalized sense is that it has to be kind of voluntary, doesn't it? You know, you can't if you're forcing someone to do a good deed or to be generous, then it's no longer.

I can imagine how kind of twee that would be. Like grace. Do you? Yeah.

I can imagine how kind of twee that would be. Like grace. Do you? Yeah.

That's a.

That's a.

Great badge.

Great badge.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But but it's true. I mean, exactly as you say. I had a friend who, during Covid, kept paying her cleaner, even though her cleaner couldn't come for, you know, over a year. Yeah. And very didn't tell anyone. I can't even remember how I found out about it, you know, some sort of friend of friend of friend kind of thing. And I just thought that is such a just a generous, thoughtful thing to do. Yeah. Just recognizing that here is someone whose whole profession is about going into other people's houses and touching their stuff. Yeah. And they just couldn't do it any more for anyone. And, you know, and she just kept paying them. And I just thought that is a really lovely, thoughtful thing to do. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But but it's true. I mean, exactly as you say. I had a friend who, during Covid, kept paying her cleaner, even though her cleaner couldn't come for, you know, over a year. Yeah. And very didn't tell anyone. I can't even remember how I found out about it, you know, some sort of friend of friend of friend kind of thing. And I just thought that is such a just a generous, thoughtful thing to do. Yeah. Just recognizing that here is someone whose whole profession is about going into other people's houses and touching their stuff. Yeah. And they just couldn't do it any more for anyone. And, you know, and she just kept paying them. And I just thought that is a really lovely, thoughtful thing to do. Yeah.

Covid was so full of examples like that. Neighbors looking after each other, you know, all the medics, all the people like getting up and working on public transport and putting themselves at danger. You know, there was a lot of what about the kind of men who kept like, like playing the piano or playing the violin in the middle of town squares, like all these things that we that we loved about each other. Like we really saw these moments of this triumph of the human spirit. And yet and that's really what I noticed when I was thinking about writing this, because you didn't see it on the public stage. Yeah, you did not amongst like most politicians, there was brawling, there was ugliness, there was fearfulness. And yet we were living in these communities that were bubbling with like people being very tender towards each other. Yeah, yeah.

Covid was so full of examples like that. Neighbors looking after each other, you know, all the medics, all the people like getting up and working on public transport and putting themselves at danger. You know, there was a lot of what about the kind of men who kept like, like playing the piano or playing the violin in the middle of town squares, like all these things that we that we loved about each other. Like we really saw these moments of this triumph of the human spirit. And yet and that's really what I noticed when I was thinking about writing this, because you didn't see it on the public stage. Yeah, you did not amongst like most politicians, there was brawling, there was ugliness, there was fearfulness. And yet we were living in these communities that were bubbling with like people being very tender towards each other. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's right. And, and I guess that that brings me to the sort of final thing I wanted to ask about, because when I got to the end of the book, I was like, well, I am sold. We, you know, this is we all need to be doing this and finding this and seeking this, you know, all the time, in all the ways that we can. And my next thought was, well, how can we both teach ourselves and others, and especially maybe our children, to sort of exhibit experience, to offer and receive grace? Is there are there things we can do to just be a little more aware of it, a little more kind of conscious of it, a little more likely to show it in our own lives?

I think that's right. And, and I guess that that brings me to the sort of final thing I wanted to ask about, because when I got to the end of the book, I was like, well, I am sold. We, you know, this is we all need to be doing this and finding this and seeking this, you know, all the time, in all the ways that we can. And my next thought was, well, how can we both teach ourselves and others, and especially maybe our children, to sort of exhibit experience, to offer and receive grace? Is there are there things we can do to just be a little more aware of it, a little more kind of conscious of it, a little more likely to show it in our own lives?

Yeah, I think I think the best way to do it is to is to model it. Yeah. Once you see it, you do do it. And your children watch all of that. Yeah. You know, I was looking at some studies about there was like virtual reality studies. It's like a, like a Superman thing. And they had one group of people and they had to fly individually into these little towns and. Find a kid who really needed medication and go and save them and come back. And then other people in helicopter virtual helicopters who did the same, but those who actually did the superhero fly thing came out on this high. More likely to help other people around them as they came out, which often happens if you've witnessed an experienced or there's a lot of really powerful modelling around the fact that what you see, you will also do. And I think that's a question of understanding that. And I think when you speak to people about it, they're most likely to say there was someone in their family who's behaved in that way. Yes.

Yeah, I think I think the best way to do it is to is to model it. Yeah. Once you see it, you do do it. And your children watch all of that. Yeah. You know, I was looking at some studies about there was like virtual reality studies. It's like a, like a Superman thing. And they had one group of people and they had to fly individually into these little towns and. Find a kid who really needed medication and go and save them and come back. And then other people in helicopter virtual helicopters who did the same, but those who actually did the superhero fly thing came out on this high. More likely to help other people around them as they came out, which often happens if you've witnessed an experienced or there's a lot of really powerful modelling around the fact that what you see, you will also do. And I think that's a question of understanding that. And I think when you speak to people about it, they're most likely to say there was someone in their family who's behaved in that way. Yes.

Well, you mentioned your mum.

Well, you mentioned your mum.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. And that that was a wonderful sort of example to you. Yeah.

Yeah. And that that was a wonderful sort of example to you. Yeah.

Oh yeah. And it's like, I mean it's confronting. I remember being, I was in Japan with my son a couple of months ago, and he lost his rail pass, which you can't replace. Oh no, $500.

Oh yeah. And it's like, I mean it's confronting. I remember being, I was in Japan with my son a couple of months ago, and he lost his rail pass, which you can't replace. Oh no, $500.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

But it was an accident. And I was so like, what? How many times have I said. And then I was like. I'm going to talk to you about it in a moment. I had to gather myself and I was like, okay, so I forgive you because I knew. I know it was a mistake. I don't want to see it again. We won't have to talk about it again. But I was really forced into doing that because I was researching forgiveness. I had no alternative. I was like, I hope he picks up on that. Like, I hope he acts that way to other people. Someone else. Exactly.

But it was an accident. And I was so like, what? How many times have I said. And then I was like. I'm going to talk to you about it in a moment. I had to gather myself and I was like, okay, so I forgive you because I knew. I know it was a mistake. I don't want to see it again. We won't have to talk about it again. But I was really forced into doing that because I was researching forgiveness. I had no alternative. I was like, I hope he picks up on that. Like, I hope he acts that way to other people. Someone else. Exactly.

I hope this gets passed on. And how did you feel in yourself? Did did the forgiveness become easier over time? Were you glad in the aftermath? You know that you'd done it with the.

I hope this gets passed on. And how did you feel in yourself? Did did the forgiveness become easier over time? Were you glad in the aftermath? You know that you'd done it with the.

With the train thing.

With the train thing.

Given him about the train thing?

Given him about the train thing?

Exactly, I think. No, no, no, totally. Yeah. When I think about it now, I got at least I got the chance to say that to him. Like you, you want to be able to have those kinds of conversations.

Exactly, I think. No, no, no, totally. Yeah. When I think about it now, I got at least I got the chance to say that to him. Like you, you want to be able to have those kinds of conversations.

And actually probably in the, in the end, at the end of it all, what you remember is less than $500 that the rail pass cost and the fact that, you know, you didn't ruin that whole day or that whole week of holiday, being in a furious rage.

And actually probably in the, in the end, at the end of it all, what you remember is less than $500 that the rail pass cost and the fact that, you know, you didn't ruin that whole day or that whole week of holiday, being in a furious rage.

And he hadn't got sick or hadn't heard himself and he and his friend that he was traveling with said they always damage themselves in some way and end up in hospital. So overall I was ahead.

And he hadn't got sick or hadn't heard himself and he and his friend that he was traveling with said they always damage themselves in some way and end up in hospital. So overall I was ahead.

So it was good. But yeah.

So it was good. But yeah.

Yeah, I think it's a really important. I think it's really hard, like because how do you teach kids like an extraordinary kind of decency? And I'm not saying that was extraordinary at all. I was just forgiving him for. Sounds pretty extraordinary.

Yeah, I think it's a really important. I think it's really hard, like because how do you teach kids like an extraordinary kind of decency? And I'm not saying that was extraordinary at all. I was just forgiving him for. Sounds pretty extraordinary.

I.

I.

Know, but how do you do.

Know, but how do you do.

It? And I think that's kind of challenging. Like, you know, like when they see people self-sacrifice, get up early to drive, you know, an elderly neighbor to the markets or spend weekends packaging things up for refugees, families who are in need of food or who, you know, were out on the front line with Covid, like there's just there's so much of that around. I think we just need to highlight it and honor it more. Like, I would like to see more people applauding like we did during Covid. For the nurses and the medical staff. There was something so uplifting for everyone about that.

It? And I think that's kind of challenging. Like, you know, like when they see people self-sacrifice, get up early to drive, you know, an elderly neighbor to the markets or spend weekends packaging things up for refugees, families who are in need of food or who, you know, were out on the front line with Covid, like there's just there's so much of that around. I think we just need to highlight it and honor it more. Like, I would like to see more people applauding like we did during Covid. For the nurses and the medical staff. There was something so uplifting for everyone about that.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's absolutely right. Well, look, it's a really uplifting book. It's a beautiful read. I think people who who love phosphorescence will really love it. And, and I hope a whole lot of people who haven't read phosphorescence read it to thank you. And it's certainly a wonderful way of putting it out there, as you say, you know, modeling it for everyone else. So all the very best with it.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's absolutely right. Well, look, it's a really uplifting book. It's a beautiful read. I think people who who love phosphorescence will really love it. And, and I hope a whole lot of people who haven't read phosphorescence read it to thank you. And it's certainly a wonderful way of putting it out there, as you say, you know, modeling it for everyone else. So all the very best with it.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. Ruby Schwartz is head of podcasting, and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. Ruby Schwartz is head of podcasting, and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.