Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Callum Linnane, the principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. Linnane, 29, has been dancing since he was first enrolled in tap lessons as a seven year old in regional Victoria. Now he's the star of the show, the kind of person who does magazine spreads and launches spring fashion campaigns on his social media. Followers have described him as everything from Australia's answer to Rudolf Nureyev to a young David Bowie. But really, he's just a boy from Ballarat who's made it big on the stage and is about to play the titular role in Nijinsky. The latest offering from the Australian Ballet. Welcome, Callum.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Callum Linnane, the principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. Linnane, 29, has been dancing since he was first enrolled in tap lessons as a seven year old in regional Victoria. Now he's the star of the show, the kind of person who does magazine spreads and launches spring fashion campaigns on his social media. Followers have described him as everything from Australia's answer to Rudolf Nureyev to a young David Bowie. But really, he's just a boy from Ballarat who's made it big on the stage and is about to play the titular role in Nijinsky. The latest offering from the Australian Ballet. Welcome, Callum.

Wow, what an intro. Thanks for having me like that. That was great. We're happy to have you here.

Wow, what an intro. Thanks for having me like that. That was great. We're happy to have you here.

Now, I've been to the ballet a few times, but I'm no expert, and I suspect many of our listeners probably fall into that same boat. So, first of all, what does it mean to be the principal artist beyond kind of the car parking space and the the Qantas Club membership?

Now, I've been to the ballet a few times, but I'm no expert, and I suspect many of our listeners probably fall into that same boat. So, first of all, what does it mean to be the principal artist beyond kind of the car parking space and the the Qantas Club membership?

Oh my gosh, you have done your research. Well, yeah, they're the best perks. Um, well, I mean, it's probably I need to try and describe it, like, separate to my own dreams and what it meant to me because, you know, it's all I wanted to be ever since I was 13. But you join a ballet company or most ballet companies, um, in everything separated into rank. So you join usually as an 18 or 19 year old in the corps de ballet. Um, the Australian Ballet has five ranks. Most ballet companies kind of have around the same and throughout, I suppose, years of hard work and getting opportunities and strokes of luck and good casting opportunities and whatnot. Um, you know, you I would say most dancers try to climb the ranks to become principal. And yeah, I suppose it means you are a leader of the company. You you tend to do the, the featured work, you know. So I suppose the pressure's on and whatnot, but yeah, it's like, I guess it's the kind of top pinnacle of the of the ballet company.

Oh my gosh, you have done your research. Well, yeah, they're the best perks. Um, well, I mean, it's probably I need to try and describe it, like, separate to my own dreams and what it meant to me because, you know, it's all I wanted to be ever since I was 13. But you join a ballet company or most ballet companies, um, in everything separated into rank. So you join usually as an 18 or 19 year old in the corps de ballet. Um, the Australian Ballet has five ranks. Most ballet companies kind of have around the same and throughout, I suppose, years of hard work and getting opportunities and strokes of luck and good casting opportunities and whatnot. Um, you know, you I would say most dancers try to climb the ranks to become principal. And yeah, I suppose it means you are a leader of the company. You you tend to do the, the featured work, you know. So I suppose the pressure's on and whatnot, but yeah, it's like, I guess it's the kind of top pinnacle of the of the ballet company.

We'll get to that pressure in a minute. Yeah, definitely want to.

We'll get to that pressure in a minute. Yeah, definitely want to.

Talk about that.

Talk about that.

We're here though, in part because of that upcoming production of Nijinsky, which is Feb 21 to March 1st at the Regent Theatre in Melbourne and then April 4 to 22 at the opera House in Sydney. But you've played this role before, right back in 2016. I understand it was one of your earliest principal roles, and I read that you were kind of terrified to step onto that stage at the time. Can you take us back to that moment and why you were so scared?

We're here though, in part because of that upcoming production of Nijinsky, which is Feb 21 to March 1st at the Regent Theatre in Melbourne and then April 4 to 22 at the opera House in Sydney. But you've played this role before, right back in 2016. I understand it was one of your earliest principal roles, and I read that you were kind of terrified to step onto that stage at the time. Can you take us back to that moment and why you were so scared?

Yeah, it was, um. So Nijinsky, uh, by John Neumeier. It was the first full length principal role that I was given, um, full length, meaning like an entire evening work. That year I was in my second year in the in the ballet company, and I'd done some featured roles, but this was the first, like, you're doing the lead role of an entire, uh, you know, two act ballet. So it was obviously very exciting. But, um, you know, a big opportunity came with lots of lots of stress. And yeah, I remember the first show I wasn't necessarily supposed to go on for the Melbourne season. I was going to go on later in the year, um, in Sydney. And one of the other guys who was cast for Nijinsky broke his rib in. He broke his rib before the show on the Wednesday and pushed through and did the show. Wow. Um, and then so that was a Wednesday. And then on Thursday, I got the tap and it was like, you're you need to go on.

Yeah, it was, um. So Nijinsky, uh, by John Neumeier. It was the first full length principal role that I was given, um, full length, meaning like an entire evening work. That year I was in my second year in the in the ballet company, and I'd done some featured roles, but this was the first, like, you're doing the lead role of an entire, uh, you know, two act ballet. So it was obviously very exciting. But, um, you know, a big opportunity came with lots of lots of stress. And yeah, I remember the first show I wasn't necessarily supposed to go on for the Melbourne season. I was going to go on later in the year, um, in Sydney. And one of the other guys who was cast for Nijinsky broke his rib in. He broke his rib before the show on the Wednesday and pushed through and did the show. Wow. Um, and then so that was a Wednesday. And then on Thursday, I got the tap and it was like, you're you need to go on.

Oh my God.

Oh my God.

On Saturday. Yeah. So I rehearsed that night and then the next day did costume fittings. And then I was on on Saturday matinee and I was obviously excited. But yeah, you're right, I was terrified. And I remember I had a bunch of family came to the show on the Saturday and the ballet opens, um, in, in kind of more theatrical way, when audience members come in to the auditorium, the curtain's already up, and what they see is like a ballroom on stage. And then Nijinsky's entrance. He's sort of wrapped in a big cloak, and I remember just telling myself, like, to try and calm down because I could see, like, I could see the cloak actually shaking. I was that nervous. Yeah. And I had to walk down this, like small flight of stairs. And my goal was just to get to the bottom of the stairs without falling over. So, yeah, I was just sweating bullets. Um, but then it turned out to be a great, great show. And it was a really great experience and opportunity for me.

On Saturday. Yeah. So I rehearsed that night and then the next day did costume fittings. And then I was on on Saturday matinee and I was obviously excited. But yeah, you're right, I was terrified. And I remember I had a bunch of family came to the show on the Saturday and the ballet opens, um, in, in kind of more theatrical way, when audience members come in to the auditorium, the curtain's already up, and what they see is like a ballroom on stage. And then Nijinsky's entrance. He's sort of wrapped in a big cloak, and I remember just telling myself, like, to try and calm down because I could see, like, I could see the cloak actually shaking. I was that nervous. Yeah. And I had to walk down this, like small flight of stairs. And my goal was just to get to the bottom of the stairs without falling over. So, yeah, I was just sweating bullets. Um, but then it turned out to be a great, great show. And it was a really great experience and opportunity for me.

Excellent. So Vaslav Nijinsky is, of course, a kind of beloved and tragic figure in ballet. Um, what can you tell listeners about him as a kind of person and performer and what you need to convey about him on stage through through dance?

Excellent. So Vaslav Nijinsky is, of course, a kind of beloved and tragic figure in ballet. Um, what can you tell listeners about him as a kind of person and performer and what you need to convey about him on stage through through dance?

Well, I think what's so interesting about him as a, as a character to play is that there's no actual footage of him dancing. So it's all kind of based on people's accounts of having watched him. Um, and, you know, it sounds like and I do believe that he really was like the first great male ballet superstar, but because there's no footage, I think it lends itself to a sort of myth about him. Um, and I think what's interesting about him is that as a performer, apparently he was just completely transformative and in a vast array of, um, very different characters. You know, he's famous for playing like the poet in Les La Sylphide, The spirit of the Rose, The Golden Slave, the Faun in afternoon of a Faun. Lots of very different characters, but he would really become those, those those people, you know, some of them aren't people on stage. And I think as a person separately to that, he was very, um, I mean, it's tricky to describe very, very intelligent, but I think very, um, socially kind of naive and simple. And so I think there's these two kind of, um, contrasts is that the person on stage was very, very alive and um, and would transform. But then him as a, as a man, as a person was. Yeah. Sort of very, very pure, naive. Um, not exactly the charismatic man about town. That would sort of happen on stage, but yeah. So these two kind of polar opposites. And he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic. Yeah. And then as we yeah, as we, as he got later into life. Um, actually, when he was, like late 20s. Yeah, he was he was diagnosed schizophrenic. Um, in, in Switzerland. Yeah. Which is just, I mean, tragic, you know, he was this really was this sort of tortured artist. And, um. Yeah, he gave his final performance when he was 29 years old and and then spent the next 30 years of his life in institutions. Yeah. So it really was a real fall. A real fall from grace. But yeah, I mean, it lends itself to to a really interesting and, um, deep character to, to play on stage.

Well, I think what's so interesting about him as a, as a character to play is that there's no actual footage of him dancing. So it's all kind of based on people's accounts of having watched him. Um, and, you know, it sounds like and I do believe that he really was like the first great male ballet superstar, but because there's no footage, I think it lends itself to a sort of myth about him. Um, and I think what's interesting about him is that as a performer, apparently he was just completely transformative and in a vast array of, um, very different characters. You know, he's famous for playing like the poet in Les La Sylphide, The spirit of the Rose, The Golden Slave, the Faun in afternoon of a Faun. Lots of very different characters, but he would really become those, those those people, you know, some of them aren't people on stage. And I think as a person separately to that, he was very, um, I mean, it's tricky to describe very, very intelligent, but I think very, um, socially kind of naive and simple. And so I think there's these two kind of, um, contrasts is that the person on stage was very, very alive and um, and would transform. But then him as a, as a man, as a person was. Yeah. Sort of very, very pure, naive. Um, not exactly the charismatic man about town. That would sort of happen on stage, but yeah. So these two kind of polar opposites. And he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic. Yeah. And then as we yeah, as we, as he got later into life. Um, actually, when he was, like late 20s. Yeah, he was he was diagnosed schizophrenic. Um, in, in Switzerland. Yeah. Which is just, I mean, tragic, you know, he was this really was this sort of tortured artist. And, um. Yeah, he gave his final performance when he was 29 years old and and then spent the next 30 years of his life in institutions. Yeah. So it really was a real fall. A real fall from grace. But yeah, I mean, it lends itself to to a really interesting and, um, deep character to, to play on stage.

Okay. That's his backstory. Let's, let's zoom back into to yours. Now, you were a sporty kid, but started dancing when you were seven. How did that happen? How did you get enrolled?

Okay. That's his backstory. Let's, let's zoom back into to yours. Now, you were a sporty kid, but started dancing when you were seven. How did that happen? How did you get enrolled?

I always, without really realizing it, I liked dancing, and I think I was at a natural knack for dancing. And it was. Michael Jackson was the instigator. Like, I think there was a TV special on, and I was sort of just transfixed to the television, and I think dad recorded it. And so I would watch it over and over because I remember I still remember just watching how this guy could dance. And, and so I sort of started to try and learn and copy the moves. And I think Mum and Dad were like, oh, wow, okay, Cal can can move. And then a teacher at school when, you know, you must do like end of year kind of school concerts. Sure. And you learn really basic choreography. I think that teacher was like, oh, you know, your son can dance and you should put him in dance lessons. And so mum enrolled me in tap lessons and I was furious. I did not want to do dancing, you know, I had my I had my, my idea of who I was and, and that was going against that. And I think I was just like a, I was worried about being bullied at school and, but mum convinced me do a year and then you can stop and then you've tried it? Sure. So I did a year, and I was okay with it. It wasn't like I loved it. And then. But it was at the end of that year that I was on stage for the first time, and it just, like, completely hooked me. Wow.

I always, without really realizing it, I liked dancing, and I think I was at a natural knack for dancing. And it was. Michael Jackson was the instigator. Like, I think there was a TV special on, and I was sort of just transfixed to the television, and I think dad recorded it. And so I would watch it over and over because I remember I still remember just watching how this guy could dance. And, and so I sort of started to try and learn and copy the moves. And I think Mum and Dad were like, oh, wow, okay, Cal can can move. And then a teacher at school when, you know, you must do like end of year kind of school concerts. Sure. And you learn really basic choreography. I think that teacher was like, oh, you know, your son can dance and you should put him in dance lessons. And so mum enrolled me in tap lessons and I was furious. I did not want to do dancing, you know, I had my I had my, my idea of who I was and, and that was going against that. And I think I was just like a, I was worried about being bullied at school and, but mum convinced me do a year and then you can stop and then you've tried it? Sure. So I did a year, and I was okay with it. It wasn't like I loved it. And then. But it was at the end of that year that I was on stage for the first time, and it just, like, completely hooked me. Wow.

What was it about being on stage?

What was it about being on stage?

I just remember, I mean, it's hard to it's hard to put into words. It's just like a real, uh, feeling or like, I don't know, something chemical. I'm not sure. But I remember being in the wings waiting before our entrance to go on, and I was just so excited. Yeah. And and it was such a rush. And then we did the show and everything around it to, like, I remember just the environment of being around your friends, like, backstage and how fun and exciting that was. And that's still the case. Like, you know, we do these amazing, great scary things on stage. But, you know, I dance in the Australian Ballet with people I've been at school with since I was 12. So it's like, you know, my best friends and my family, and I think it's the same of when I was seven. It was like, you know, the excitement and the nerves of being on stage and dancing, but also just like hanging out with your friends. Right? And, and you get such a high from it. And I remember after the show mum coming backstage and was like, great, you know, you've done your year. And I was like, and I want to come back next year. And it just sort of kept rolling from there.

I just remember, I mean, it's hard to it's hard to put into words. It's just like a real, uh, feeling or like, I don't know, something chemical. I'm not sure. But I remember being in the wings waiting before our entrance to go on, and I was just so excited. Yeah. And and it was such a rush. And then we did the show and everything around it to, like, I remember just the environment of being around your friends, like, backstage and how fun and exciting that was. And that's still the case. Like, you know, we do these amazing, great scary things on stage. But, you know, I dance in the Australian Ballet with people I've been at school with since I was 12. So it's like, you know, my best friends and my family, and I think it's the same of when I was seven. It was like, you know, the excitement and the nerves of being on stage and dancing, but also just like hanging out with your friends. Right? And, and you get such a high from it. And I remember after the show mum coming backstage and was like, great, you know, you've done your year. And I was like, and I want to come back next year. And it just sort of kept rolling from there.

And you did as you say. You started with tap and then you did things like modern dance, hip hop. But there was this point where kind of ballet was a bridge too far, right? You're like, I can't make that step. Yeah, not not doing that.

And you did as you say. You started with tap and then you did things like modern dance, hip hop. But there was this point where kind of ballet was a bridge too far, right? You're like, I can't make that step. Yeah, not not doing that.

Yeah. I had this idea in my head like that. I'd be wearing like, a tutu or something if they enrolled me in ballet, and it just seemed like a step too far at that at that age for me, you know? Yeah, I was 11, I think. And, you know, I was in Ballarat and it just, I don't know, it was just it seemed quite scary to me.

Yeah. I had this idea in my head like that. I'd be wearing like, a tutu or something if they enrolled me in ballet, and it just seemed like a step too far at that at that age for me, you know? Yeah, I was 11, I think. And, you know, I was in Ballarat and it just, I don't know, it was just it seemed quite scary to me.

Country town.

Country town.

Yeah. Yeah. Even though I was pretty lucky, like I never got. I never copped anything for, you know, for dancing. And so many people I work with now had it really rough. Yeah. Growing up doing dance no matter what city they were in. And. Yeah, so I was like, okay, everything but ballet. And then my teachers were like, you know, you really should do ballet. Like, it'll it's it's good to have a technique. It'll help everything else. And, and I was really against it. And then I actually only found this out recently that my, um, eldest brother was the one, I think, who had a lot of convincing on me because he was just like. How? Like they're offering you, like, free lessons for six months. Like, just try it, just try it, and then you can say you tried it. And then and I was like, okay, maybe hearing my older brothers, you know, kind of be encouraging about it. Um, and so I tried it and then I was hooked. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. Loved it.

Yeah. Yeah. Even though I was pretty lucky, like I never got. I never copped anything for, you know, for dancing. And so many people I work with now had it really rough. Yeah. Growing up doing dance no matter what city they were in. And. Yeah, so I was like, okay, everything but ballet. And then my teachers were like, you know, you really should do ballet. Like, it'll it's it's good to have a technique. It'll help everything else. And, and I was really against it. And then I actually only found this out recently that my, um, eldest brother was the one, I think, who had a lot of convincing on me because he was just like. How? Like they're offering you, like, free lessons for six months. Like, just try it, just try it, and then you can say you tried it. And then and I was like, okay, maybe hearing my older brothers, you know, kind of be encouraging about it. Um, and so I tried it and then I was hooked. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. Loved it.

And we're all the better for it. Um, how how quickly did it become a sort of a massive commitment in your life. Like I understand as a by the time you were 12, you were sort of catching a train, a v-line train by yourself to Melbourne to to go to ballet school and your mum's working nights to, to pay for these classes.

And we're all the better for it. Um, how how quickly did it become a sort of a massive commitment in your life. Like I understand as a by the time you were 12, you were sort of catching a train, a v-line train by yourself to Melbourne to to go to ballet school and your mum's working nights to, to pay for these classes.

It became a big thing within like months. Yeah. I, um I had a teacher. I, I don't know exactly why I loved it so much. I think, you know, because how I think about it now is, is different to how I was when I was 11. But I think there was something about the that sort of, you know, pursuit of maybe perfection. And I liked how focused, you know, one needed to be. And, and I was a very sort of serious kid and I took things really seriously. And ballet sort of seemed to lend itself to that. And I think also too, it helps that if you're if you have a bit of natural talent for something and or you have a teacher that's encouraging you and saying, hey, you're great at this. Like that's good at any age. I think when you're a kid, it's like, oh, am I do I can I like yeah. And and so yeah it got sort of started pretty quick and yeah, within six months the my teachers were like, if you want to do this like you can and but if you know you need proper or full time training and you should consider auditioning for, for these schools. And there was schools in Melbourne, the Australian Ballet School, which I ended up going to, or the Victorian College of the Arts secondary School. And so I auditioned for for the both of them. And the plan was to go to the College of the Arts because you could do your high schooling, your academic work there as well, and other styles of dance. Yeah. And that just seemed like a kind of more well-rounded option. So I went to my teacher, convinced me to do the Australian Ballet School audition as a sort of like audition for the audition. Like a practice audition? Sure. Yeah. Um, and I went down there and I remember as soon as I walked in, I was like, yeah, no, this is the place. Yeah, I just sort of felt it. And and I got in. I was accepted into both schools. And then I remember like, still the plan was to go to the College of the Arts, but I had this, like, like feeling in my stomach. I was like, no, it's not right. And then I think when both the letters came, mum was like, which one do you want to go to? And I was like, I want to go to Australian Ballet school. Yeah. And so we ended up going with that. And that meant, you know, the next year started year seven. I would do a few hours of school at Saint Pat's in Ballarat till midday leave. Get on the train, go down and do three hours of ballet each night. I did that for a year and then the next year I went into full time training, so I'd get up at 530, be on the train by 630, catch the train down to Melbourne and then do ballet and school all day and. Yeah. And so I did that for until I was almost 15. And then I moved down to Melbourne.

It became a big thing within like months. Yeah. I, um I had a teacher. I, I don't know exactly why I loved it so much. I think, you know, because how I think about it now is, is different to how I was when I was 11. But I think there was something about the that sort of, you know, pursuit of maybe perfection. And I liked how focused, you know, one needed to be. And, and I was a very sort of serious kid and I took things really seriously. And ballet sort of seemed to lend itself to that. And I think also too, it helps that if you're if you have a bit of natural talent for something and or you have a teacher that's encouraging you and saying, hey, you're great at this. Like that's good at any age. I think when you're a kid, it's like, oh, am I do I can I like yeah. And and so yeah it got sort of started pretty quick and yeah, within six months the my teachers were like, if you want to do this like you can and but if you know you need proper or full time training and you should consider auditioning for, for these schools. And there was schools in Melbourne, the Australian Ballet School, which I ended up going to, or the Victorian College of the Arts secondary School. And so I auditioned for for the both of them. And the plan was to go to the College of the Arts because you could do your high schooling, your academic work there as well, and other styles of dance. Yeah. And that just seemed like a kind of more well-rounded option. So I went to my teacher, convinced me to do the Australian Ballet School audition as a sort of like audition for the audition. Like a practice audition? Sure. Yeah. Um, and I went down there and I remember as soon as I walked in, I was like, yeah, no, this is the place. Yeah, I just sort of felt it. And and I got in. I was accepted into both schools. And then I remember like, still the plan was to go to the College of the Arts, but I had this, like, like feeling in my stomach. I was like, no, it's not right. And then I think when both the letters came, mum was like, which one do you want to go to? And I was like, I want to go to Australian Ballet school. Yeah. And so we ended up going with that. And that meant, you know, the next year started year seven. I would do a few hours of school at Saint Pat's in Ballarat till midday leave. Get on the train, go down and do three hours of ballet each night. I did that for a year and then the next year I went into full time training, so I'd get up at 530, be on the train by 630, catch the train down to Melbourne and then do ballet and school all day and. Yeah. And so I did that for until I was almost 15. And then I moved down to Melbourne.

Mhm.

Mhm.

Mhm.

Mhm.

Full on. Yeah. Okay. What would the boys at Saint Pat's like. That's a famous football school. Yeah. Kind of production line for AFL players. I mean you mentioned you didn't have it really hard as a kid, but, um. Yeah. How did they react to a gun? Ballet dancer in their midst?

Full on. Yeah. Okay. What would the boys at Saint Pat's like. That's a famous football school. Yeah. Kind of production line for AFL players. I mean you mentioned you didn't have it really hard as a kid, but, um. Yeah. How did they react to a gun? Ballet dancer in their midst?

Yeah, I mean, I, I was pretty apprehensive and pretty pretty scared to be going to Saint Pat's. And it's a pretty bold choice, I think, to be, like to be sending your son there when they're, you know, um, all boys school, as you said, which has such a reputation for producing great AFL players. And I was like the one ballet dancer in the school and but they were everyone was great, really supportive. And I think, though, that the school was was already aware, like prior to me coming, that it could be it very well may be disastrous for me is okay. And so I think the head of year seven, I think spoke to all the year seven students, like maybe before I arrived, maybe I was at like a something down in Melbourne for the ballet. And they said, I think he said like, um, you know, we have this student coming who's and kind of just said, you know, um, has a lot of talent and a lot of potential and it's ballet. And I think he basically said, don't give him a hard time. Nice. And then I think no one did. No one gave me a hard time that simple principles.

Yeah, I mean, I, I was pretty apprehensive and pretty pretty scared to be going to Saint Pat's. And it's a pretty bold choice, I think, to be, like to be sending your son there when they're, you know, um, all boys school, as you said, which has such a reputation for producing great AFL players. And I was like the one ballet dancer in the school and but they were everyone was great, really supportive. And I think, though, that the school was was already aware, like prior to me coming, that it could be it very well may be disastrous for me is okay. And so I think the head of year seven, I think spoke to all the year seven students, like maybe before I arrived, maybe I was at like a something down in Melbourne for the ballet. And they said, I think he said like, um, you know, we have this student coming who's and kind of just said, you know, um, has a lot of talent and a lot of potential and it's ballet. And I think he basically said, don't give him a hard time. Nice. And then I think no one did. No one gave me a hard time that simple principles.

If you're out there listening. Yeah.

If you're out there listening. Yeah.

I think like apparently.

I think like apparently.

I.

I.

Think they, they, um, they were like, oh, you know, this person is leaving school each day at midday. That's cool. Like, I think every year seven student wants to leave at lunchtime, you know. So she's like, oh, to to follow this talent and that, that he has. So maybe they I don't know, maybe I got it off easy because it was like aspiring to something, which is great, but also sometimes feels like a bit of a cop out because it's like, oh, well, would it have been different if I was just if I did ballet as a hobby, as in after school in Ballarat, you know, but we can't know. So yeah, I was, I was lucky, I was very lucky.

Think they, they, um, they were like, oh, you know, this person is leaving school each day at midday. That's cool. Like, I think every year seven student wants to leave at lunchtime, you know. So she's like, oh, to to follow this talent and that, that he has. So maybe they I don't know, maybe I got it off easy because it was like aspiring to something, which is great, but also sometimes feels like a bit of a cop out because it's like, oh, well, would it have been different if I was just if I did ballet as a hobby, as in after school in Ballarat, you know, but we can't know. So yeah, I was, I was lucky, I was very lucky.

You eventually graduated dux with honours. But I understand your father passed away that final year in ballet school when you were just 18. Is that right? Um, can you tell us a little bit about him and sort of the impact of of that?

You eventually graduated dux with honours. But I understand your father passed away that final year in ballet school when you were just 18. Is that right? Um, can you tell us a little bit about him and sort of the impact of of that?

Yeah, yeah. My dad passed away in my final year at the ballet school, um, in that first term holiday break. Um, and yeah, it was my final year. And the final year of ballet school is like, it's kind of like a long audition for to join the Australian Ballet, or to prepare yourself to go out to the world and find a find a job in a ballet company. And I had some big roles coming up. And I came home one evening and he had a, um, an aneurysm, a brain aneurysm, very out of out of the blue and passed away. And he was a very it was a shock because he was I mean, he hadn't really had any health scares. It was very out of the blue. What did he do? He was I mean, he did lots of things. Um, when I was growing up, he was, um, a bricklayer. And then he was in the army. And then after the army, I believe he went back to bricklaying. And then I think at the time, though, when he when I was a bit older, when he passed away, he was my, my uncle operates a safety eyewear manufacturing business and my dad was managing the, the warehouse. Yeah. So not dancing. He didn't dance. I was gonna say.

Yeah, yeah. My dad passed away in my final year at the ballet school, um, in that first term holiday break. Um, and yeah, it was my final year. And the final year of ballet school is like, it's kind of like a long audition for to join the Australian Ballet, or to prepare yourself to go out to the world and find a find a job in a ballet company. And I had some big roles coming up. And I came home one evening and he had a, um, an aneurysm, a brain aneurysm, very out of out of the blue and passed away. And he was a very it was a shock because he was I mean, he hadn't really had any health scares. It was very out of the blue. What did he do? He was I mean, he did lots of things. Um, when I was growing up, he was, um, a bricklayer. And then he was in the army. And then after the army, I believe he went back to bricklaying. And then I think at the time, though, when he when I was a bit older, when he passed away, he was my, my uncle operates a safety eyewear manufacturing business and my dad was managing the, the warehouse. Yeah. So not dancing. He didn't dance. I was gonna say.

A brickie and a grunt. And he was encouraging of his ballet dancing son.

A brickie and a grunt. And he was encouraging of his ballet dancing son.

I take it. Yeah. Yeah. He was. He was very musical. He loved music. Okay. Um. And he had a beautiful singing voice, and he could play guitar, and he. That was a real, uh, passion of his. Um, so I think he was always very encouraging of my, you know, my brother and I to pursue whatever it was that we were interested in or passionate about. Yeah. Because maybe he had his passion and interest, but the jobs didn't necessarily reflect that. Yeah. Yeah. So whenever it was like, you know, if you want to do ballet, great. Do ballet. Like, if you want to play footy, great. Play footy. And as soon as you don't want to play, don't play. Like which was very freeing. And you know, I can reflect on that and see how lucky I was. But I had the good mix of it with mum because mum was very much like the, um, you know, consistent, stoic, hard worker. You know, she was a nurse, as you said. She worked night shifts for me to, like, go through the extra dance lessons I needed. So she was like preaching of work ethic. And so, you know, sometimes dad would be like, you don't want to do your homework. Don't do it. Don't worry about it. And she'd be like, do your bloody homework. Like, so we had, you know, the angel and the devil. But yeah. No. Um, finally, your ballet school dad passed away. Um, was a real curveball. Sort of knocked the whole family out, but maybe is selfishly the wrong word. Like, I think pretty, pretty selfishly, I was like, wow, this has happened, but I can't. I'm not going to let it derail what I've put in, you know, the last five, six years of work for. And I remember just thinking, like, you know, I'm going to get through this, but I'm I'm not going to leave my, my, my studies and my goals. And if anything, I'm going to try and use it as a further propulsion to, to try and achieve those dreams. And so which is kind of what I did, I just got back to school like a week later and just buckled down and just like worked, worked, worked, which I think at that age people go like, wow. Like that's, you know, amazing. That's so brave. And and I guess it was. But at the same time, like, I, I think I just really put it away and didn't really address it too well. And then until like, you know, years later. But I think that's just how blinding my ambition was. And to sort of to get on, to get on with it and to really like, you know, I remember thinking like, you know, I'm going to get you know, I think I said it to my dad actually wasn't exactly conscious, but when he was in the hospital and I remember saying, like, like promising, I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get I'm going to become a dancer and ballet, and I'm going to get to principal. I'm going to do it. And I think almost saying that out loud, it sounds kind of crazy and a bit insane now, but I think it really helped me like, I don't know, stick to my guns and try and pursue it.

I take it. Yeah. Yeah. He was. He was very musical. He loved music. Okay. Um. And he had a beautiful singing voice, and he could play guitar, and he. That was a real, uh, passion of his. Um, so I think he was always very encouraging of my, you know, my brother and I to pursue whatever it was that we were interested in or passionate about. Yeah. Because maybe he had his passion and interest, but the jobs didn't necessarily reflect that. Yeah. Yeah. So whenever it was like, you know, if you want to do ballet, great. Do ballet. Like, if you want to play footy, great. Play footy. And as soon as you don't want to play, don't play. Like which was very freeing. And you know, I can reflect on that and see how lucky I was. But I had the good mix of it with mum because mum was very much like the, um, you know, consistent, stoic, hard worker. You know, she was a nurse, as you said. She worked night shifts for me to, like, go through the extra dance lessons I needed. So she was like preaching of work ethic. And so, you know, sometimes dad would be like, you don't want to do your homework. Don't do it. Don't worry about it. And she'd be like, do your bloody homework. Like, so we had, you know, the angel and the devil. But yeah. No. Um, finally, your ballet school dad passed away. Um, was a real curveball. Sort of knocked the whole family out, but maybe is selfishly the wrong word. Like, I think pretty, pretty selfishly, I was like, wow, this has happened, but I can't. I'm not going to let it derail what I've put in, you know, the last five, six years of work for. And I remember just thinking, like, you know, I'm going to get through this, but I'm I'm not going to leave my, my, my studies and my goals. And if anything, I'm going to try and use it as a further propulsion to, to try and achieve those dreams. And so which is kind of what I did, I just got back to school like a week later and just buckled down and just like worked, worked, worked, which I think at that age people go like, wow. Like that's, you know, amazing. That's so brave. And and I guess it was. But at the same time, like, I, I think I just really put it away and didn't really address it too well. And then until like, you know, years later. But I think that's just how blinding my ambition was. And to sort of to get on, to get on with it and to really like, you know, I remember thinking like, you know, I'm going to get you know, I think I said it to my dad actually wasn't exactly conscious, but when he was in the hospital and I remember saying, like, like promising, I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get I'm going to become a dancer and ballet, and I'm going to get to principal. I'm going to do it. And I think almost saying that out loud, it sounds kind of crazy and a bit insane now, but I think it really helped me like, I don't know, stick to my guns and try and pursue it.

Yeah. And you did exactly that. You you became a full time dancer the following year in 2015. Give us a sense of what that's like. Again, I think I read that your schedule can include like 12 hours of class, 20 hours of rehearsal, ten hours at the gym every week. Like, is that is that about right?

Yeah. And you did exactly that. You you became a full time dancer the following year in 2015. Give us a sense of what that's like. Again, I think I read that your schedule can include like 12 hours of class, 20 hours of rehearsal, ten hours at the gym every week. Like, is that is that about right?

Yeah. I mean, you know, we start ballet class at 1030, so it's a pretty late start considering, you know, most jobs start at nine, but people are usually, you know, in the gym for an hour before ballet class. So they're getting in there extra and everyone's different. You know, some people like to do strength training and people like to do cardio, some Pilates, some yoga. And it really, you know, for me, it sort of varied over the years depending on what roles are coming up or what I want to improve on. Or some days I've, you know, just fallen off the wagon and not done any gym. But, you know, at the moment, my schedule, for example, is I like to be in the gym an hour before class, you know, sorting out the sore parts of my body and, um, you know, strengthening certain parts that I think will will benefit in the upcoming shows. And then from midday after ballet class, we rehearse for from 12 to 630 with an hour lunch break in the middle and then two 15 minute breaks, like kind of in between. So it's not much break time, but um, and rehearsals are just like, full on, you know, um, you're learning the material of the upcoming shows, and then as you get closer to the shows, you're just you're running it, you're running scenes, you're running specific dances, and it's a mix of solo work and partnering work and group work. And yeah, so it's it's it's physical, but it's also like a brain workout as well. Like sometimes when it gets to that 5:00 moment, even if you're not physically exhausted, your brain's like, I can't retain any more choreography. I can't learn any more steps.

Yeah. I mean, you know, we start ballet class at 1030, so it's a pretty late start considering, you know, most jobs start at nine, but people are usually, you know, in the gym for an hour before ballet class. So they're getting in there extra and everyone's different. You know, some people like to do strength training and people like to do cardio, some Pilates, some yoga. And it really, you know, for me, it sort of varied over the years depending on what roles are coming up or what I want to improve on. Or some days I've, you know, just fallen off the wagon and not done any gym. But, you know, at the moment, my schedule, for example, is I like to be in the gym an hour before class, you know, sorting out the sore parts of my body and, um, you know, strengthening certain parts that I think will will benefit in the upcoming shows. And then from midday after ballet class, we rehearse for from 12 to 630 with an hour lunch break in the middle and then two 15 minute breaks, like kind of in between. So it's not much break time, but um, and rehearsals are just like, full on, you know, um, you're learning the material of the upcoming shows, and then as you get closer to the shows, you're just you're running it, you're running scenes, you're running specific dances, and it's a mix of solo work and partnering work and group work. And yeah, so it's it's it's physical, but it's also like a brain workout as well. Like sometimes when it gets to that 5:00 moment, even if you're not physically exhausted, your brain's like, I can't retain any more choreography. I can't learn any more steps.

Um, yeah. The juice is gone.

Um, yeah. The juice is gone.

Yeah, everything's gone. And you're hoping for, like, a 15 minute break so you can have a snack and just, like, lay down. And then at the moment, because the show opens so soon, I find myself, even after rehearsals, going back into the gym, sometimes after 630, to kind of tick off some of the exercises I may have missed in the morning. And, you know, do something for my knees if they're sore or my back. And. Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah, long, long and full days play through pain. Yeah. Through injury. We love it.

Yeah, everything's gone. And you're hoping for, like, a 15 minute break so you can have a snack and just, like, lay down. And then at the moment, because the show opens so soon, I find myself, even after rehearsals, going back into the gym, sometimes after 630, to kind of tick off some of the exercises I may have missed in the morning. And, you know, do something for my knees if they're sore or my back. And. Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah, long, long and full days play through pain. Yeah. Through injury. We love it.

We mentioned pressure in the and the mental pain. And again, I've heard you speak before about an experience playing Romeo um, a role that you'd had dreamed about yet kind of finding yourself in in tears. So was this in the middle of a performance or you had just just finished? But whatever it was, it spurred you to start working with a psychologist after that. Can you tell us about that moment and what you got out of working with a professional?

We mentioned pressure in the and the mental pain. And again, I've heard you speak before about an experience playing Romeo um, a role that you'd had dreamed about yet kind of finding yourself in in tears. So was this in the middle of a performance or you had just just finished? But whatever it was, it spurred you to start working with a psychologist after that. Can you tell us about that moment and what you got out of working with a professional?

Yeah, I'd just been I'd been promoted to principal artist, say six months before that moment. And I felt like in those first six months I was like riding high on the on the success and like, you know, the achievement. And I was like, oh, this is great. Everything's great, I feel good, I feel confident. And then I got to this ballet, Romeo and Juliet, um, which I had been dreaming of dancing since I was about 15 or 16. And yeah, as I've said before, I just hated it. I got out there and I was I hated it because I wasn't dancing at how I wanted to dance it. Right? Um, it wasn't that like, oh, I realized I don't like this ballet. I still loved the ballet, but I couldn't take the pressure that I was ultimately putting on myself. You know, I was the newest principal in the company. I was doing opening night. Um, and I just felt like the nerves got to me, and I was. I wasn't delivering what I'd been rehearsing, and it was just my brain getting in the way, you know? Because sometimes you can go out there and you can fumble a step and it's like, oh, that's fine. I fumbled a step like, but I know what happened. But it's it gets scary when you get out there and you start and things start going wrong and you don't know why they're going wrong, because you can't pinpoint what you did physically differently. It's just your brain and your nerves are creating tension. Or in my case, like I in in for those shows, I was sort of freezing up in a way. And and yeah, it just I, it just sort of snowballed Bold, and I'm sure it felt worse than it actually ever looked, you know? But it just made me so fearful of going out on stage and doing this role. And yeah, as it got to the end of I did like two seasons, I did Melbourne and Sydney and it got to the second last show in Sydney, and it was just like, it's like I'd reached like a breaking point and I was just in tears, bawling my eyes out after the show in my dressing room and my director, who was and was shocked, my director was shocked. He was like, I can't what? Like he didn't know why I was so upset because I think to him it was like, yeah, you're having a couple of technical difficulties, but it's okay. And I was like, no, it's like I was like, please, like pull me off the stage. Like, I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. And and then yeah, the following year I came back and we'd had like a few months off of performing and I was doing another show, and I kind of had forgotten about that experience. You know, I hadn't necessarily addressed it. I'd just forgotten about it. And then it was like feeling good in rehearsals. And I got out for the first show, um, in Don Quixote, doing Espada and I had to do a similar step to the ones that I was struggling with, and I just got back into that same place. I just freaked out and I was like, fuck! And I remember for the rest of that season, I was just I went from suddenly being calm as I was like the week before in the rehearsal period, to just like that same nervous tension that I'd had during Romeo. And I remember thinking like, at that stage I was 27, 26, 27. And I was like, if this is what it's going to be like for the next ten years of my career, like, I can't do it. Like, I just yeah, it's too hard and the reward isn't enough. Like, so I need to try and find some strategies and some techniques to actually get through it. And so I started seeing a psychologist who the Australian Ballet found for me, and it completely changed everything. Just when you can explain to someone you know, be it performance related or any other parts of your life. You know, I see a different therapist now for, you know, it's not that I've got separate therapists for separate things, but I'm seeing a different therapist now. But like in that stage, it was the first time I'd really seen a therapist, and it was strictly about what I was feeling at work, you know, even though it's all connected. But just to be able to say to someone what you're feeling and experiencing and then have have her turn to me and be like, yeah, of course you're feeling this because like when you're in this situation and you're on stage and it's like it's extremely validating to be like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm not crazy or I'm not weak. And from that, you know, we just worked on like actual tangible strategies that began to really help me. And they did. They just completely it took a little while over time, because I think that experience of being on stage and feeling that was quite it did have quite an effect on me. But yeah, I just the techniques that I learned and, you know, still learning just completely changed how I went out on stage and, and performed. And yeah, it was the best thing I could have done because, like I used to fantasize about, like, quitting and like, working an office job, and which I don't think I would have lasted, but I was literally would say to my friends, like, maybe I should just do like a regular 9 to 5 and and and quit it all because I yeah, it was that wow that scary and that, um, uncomfortable, full on.

Yeah, I'd just been I'd been promoted to principal artist, say six months before that moment. And I felt like in those first six months I was like riding high on the on the success and like, you know, the achievement. And I was like, oh, this is great. Everything's great, I feel good, I feel confident. And then I got to this ballet, Romeo and Juliet, um, which I had been dreaming of dancing since I was about 15 or 16. And yeah, as I've said before, I just hated it. I got out there and I was I hated it because I wasn't dancing at how I wanted to dance it. Right? Um, it wasn't that like, oh, I realized I don't like this ballet. I still loved the ballet, but I couldn't take the pressure that I was ultimately putting on myself. You know, I was the newest principal in the company. I was doing opening night. Um, and I just felt like the nerves got to me, and I was. I wasn't delivering what I'd been rehearsing, and it was just my brain getting in the way, you know? Because sometimes you can go out there and you can fumble a step and it's like, oh, that's fine. I fumbled a step like, but I know what happened. But it's it gets scary when you get out there and you start and things start going wrong and you don't know why they're going wrong, because you can't pinpoint what you did physically differently. It's just your brain and your nerves are creating tension. Or in my case, like I in in for those shows, I was sort of freezing up in a way. And and yeah, it just I, it just sort of snowballed Bold, and I'm sure it felt worse than it actually ever looked, you know? But it just made me so fearful of going out on stage and doing this role. And yeah, as it got to the end of I did like two seasons, I did Melbourne and Sydney and it got to the second last show in Sydney, and it was just like, it's like I'd reached like a breaking point and I was just in tears, bawling my eyes out after the show in my dressing room and my director, who was and was shocked, my director was shocked. He was like, I can't what? Like he didn't know why I was so upset because I think to him it was like, yeah, you're having a couple of technical difficulties, but it's okay. And I was like, no, it's like I was like, please, like pull me off the stage. Like, I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. And and then yeah, the following year I came back and we'd had like a few months off of performing and I was doing another show, and I kind of had forgotten about that experience. You know, I hadn't necessarily addressed it. I'd just forgotten about it. And then it was like feeling good in rehearsals. And I got out for the first show, um, in Don Quixote, doing Espada and I had to do a similar step to the ones that I was struggling with, and I just got back into that same place. I just freaked out and I was like, fuck! And I remember for the rest of that season, I was just I went from suddenly being calm as I was like the week before in the rehearsal period, to just like that same nervous tension that I'd had during Romeo. And I remember thinking like, at that stage I was 27, 26, 27. And I was like, if this is what it's going to be like for the next ten years of my career, like, I can't do it. Like, I just yeah, it's too hard and the reward isn't enough. Like, so I need to try and find some strategies and some techniques to actually get through it. And so I started seeing a psychologist who the Australian Ballet found for me, and it completely changed everything. Just when you can explain to someone you know, be it performance related or any other parts of your life. You know, I see a different therapist now for, you know, it's not that I've got separate therapists for separate things, but I'm seeing a different therapist now. But like in that stage, it was the first time I'd really seen a therapist, and it was strictly about what I was feeling at work, you know, even though it's all connected. But just to be able to say to someone what you're feeling and experiencing and then have have her turn to me and be like, yeah, of course you're feeling this because like when you're in this situation and you're on stage and it's like it's extremely validating to be like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm not crazy or I'm not weak. And from that, you know, we just worked on like actual tangible strategies that began to really help me. And they did. They just completely it took a little while over time, because I think that experience of being on stage and feeling that was quite it did have quite an effect on me. But yeah, I just the techniques that I learned and, you know, still learning just completely changed how I went out on stage and, and performed. And yeah, it was the best thing I could have done because, like I used to fantasize about, like, quitting and like, working an office job, and which I don't think I would have lasted, but I was literally would say to my friends, like, maybe I should just do like a regular 9 to 5 and and and quit it all because I yeah, it was that wow that scary and that, um, uncomfortable, full on.

Okay. From, um, the brutal to the beautiful. My wife adores the elegance of the ballet. She's an American, grew up in a country town like, way north of Manhattan. And the New York City Ballet used to come up there and do a kind of residence. Yeah. Wow. In this country town, in a beautiful grassy amphitheater. She likes to say that the pitter patter of feet when the dancers are out on stage is like her favorite sound in the world. Oh, I love that. What moment do you kind of most adore when you're out on stage dancing? Like, what is it about, um, being on that floor, um, being in a flow state that appeals to you. Mhm.

Okay. From, um, the brutal to the beautiful. My wife adores the elegance of the ballet. She's an American, grew up in a country town like, way north of Manhattan. And the New York City Ballet used to come up there and do a kind of residence. Yeah. Wow. In this country town, in a beautiful grassy amphitheater. She likes to say that the pitter patter of feet when the dancers are out on stage is like her favorite sound in the world. Oh, I love that. What moment do you kind of most adore when you're out on stage dancing? Like, what is it about, um, being on that floor, um, being in a flow state that appeals to you. Mhm.

Oh wow. That's a great question. Um, I've always been envious of people who or dancers who say like, oh, you know, when I'm dancing on stage by myself, I get totally lost in the moment because I don't know if I necessarily feel that, um, you have to be perfectly honest with you.

Oh wow. That's a great question. Um, I've always been envious of people who or dancers who say like, oh, you know, when I'm dancing on stage by myself, I get totally lost in the moment because I don't know if I necessarily feel that, um, you have to be perfectly honest with you.

Um, so what? It's more technical.

Um, so what? It's more technical.

Well, it's like, I'm just like, I'm thinking a lot, you know, like. And I'm jealous of people who are like, yeah, I wasn't thinking about anything. And like, um, but there is like. So it's difficult to say what my favorite moments are, but there's definitely a I can think of some like, I remember when I did my first show of Nijinsky because it was such, you know, I was 21. I was, you know, in the corps de ballet. I was like a last minute kind of call in for the show, in a way. And it was so overwhelming. And I remember there's a moment towards the end of the ballet before we do one last solo, and I'm just sitting on this chair, and I remember looking up and seeing the, like, this row of lights, you know, the stage lights. And that was a moment where I felt, like, incredibly present. And I remember thinking about my dad actually, on that in that moment. And, you know, for whatever reason, you know, and and so that's always stuck with me. And so it's moments like that that I and they're rarely that I'm dancing because usually when I'm dancing I'm thinking too much or I'm, I'm, I'm seeing where I am in the space or I'm probably already scared that some steps are going to go wrong or something. But so the moments that I really enjoy on stage, on stage are when you're out there and you're able to be on the stage and standing there and, you know, in front of thousands of people, but not doing much. So which might sound like an easy cop out, but it's. That's when it feels, like, quite powerful and you know, and be it, if you're in a character or, you know, that's when I feel really present and like, um, that I'm sort of maybe I'm not commanding something, but yeah, it does feel very empowering. And so, yeah, it's always the quiet moments, be it sitting in a chair or, or just walking across a stage or you're.

Well, it's like, I'm just like, I'm thinking a lot, you know, like. And I'm jealous of people who are like, yeah, I wasn't thinking about anything. And like, um, but there is like. So it's difficult to say what my favorite moments are, but there's definitely a I can think of some like, I remember when I did my first show of Nijinsky because it was such, you know, I was 21. I was, you know, in the corps de ballet. I was like a last minute kind of call in for the show, in a way. And it was so overwhelming. And I remember there's a moment towards the end of the ballet before we do one last solo, and I'm just sitting on this chair, and I remember looking up and seeing the, like, this row of lights, you know, the stage lights. And that was a moment where I felt, like, incredibly present. And I remember thinking about my dad actually, on that in that moment. And, you know, for whatever reason, you know, and and so that's always stuck with me. And so it's moments like that that I and they're rarely that I'm dancing because usually when I'm dancing I'm thinking too much or I'm, I'm, I'm seeing where I am in the space or I'm probably already scared that some steps are going to go wrong or something. But so the moments that I really enjoy on stage, on stage are when you're out there and you're able to be on the stage and standing there and, you know, in front of thousands of people, but not doing much. So which might sound like an easy cop out, but it's. That's when it feels, like, quite powerful and you know, and be it, if you're in a character or, you know, that's when I feel really present and like, um, that I'm sort of maybe I'm not commanding something, but yeah, it does feel very empowering. And so, yeah, it's always the quiet moments, be it sitting in a chair or, or just walking across a stage or you're.

Stopping to smell the roses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stopping to smell the roses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's that's when I feel. Yeah. Really, really in the moment.

That's that's when I feel. Yeah. Really, really in the moment.

Wonderful. I'm wondering now about the lifespan of a ballet dancer, because I've got no idea. You're 29. How much longer can you do what you do.

Wonderful. I'm wondering now about the lifespan of a ballet dancer, because I've got no idea. You're 29. How much longer can you do what you do.

Mate? It's running out. Um, I think it's different for everyone, but I'd say probably on average, like mid to late 30s. So, you know, some dancers dance to their early 40s. Um, I think it's a mix of like how long the body can hold out, how long the passion holds out, or another passion takes over or, you know, um.

Mate? It's running out. Um, I think it's different for everyone, but I'd say probably on average, like mid to late 30s. So, you know, some dancers dance to their early 40s. Um, I think it's a mix of like how long the body can hold out, how long the passion holds out, or another passion takes over or, you know, um.

How's the body? How's the body is okay.

How's the body? How's the body is okay.

Um, I, you know, we're about to open nezhinski, and, um, so I'm covered in bruises because it's one of those very physical ones. But for the most part, I've been really lucky, like in terms of injuries. I've had little injuries along the way, but nothing too serious to keep me out for a long time. Um, yeah. So I'm almost 30, which means that I should probably start to think about what I'm going to do next, and I have no idea. And so if you've got any ideas, you can let me know, because I reckon, I think I've probably got another maybe 6 or 7 years left. Left.

Um, I, you know, we're about to open nezhinski, and, um, so I'm covered in bruises because it's one of those very physical ones. But for the most part, I've been really lucky, like in terms of injuries. I've had little injuries along the way, but nothing too serious to keep me out for a long time. Um, yeah. So I'm almost 30, which means that I should probably start to think about what I'm going to do next, and I have no idea. And so if you've got any ideas, you can let me know, because I reckon, I think I've probably got another maybe 6 or 7 years left. Left.

I was going to ask you what, uh, what was next? Do you see yourself as an artistic director, as a choreographer, as is a teacher like or something altogether different? Do you get out of ballet and into a different kind of dance?

I was going to ask you what, uh, what was next? Do you see yourself as an artistic director, as a choreographer, as is a teacher like or something altogether different? Do you get out of ballet and into a different kind of dance?

I don't know, like I, I don't I'm not a choreographer because I think I think that's a I mean, like a lot of things, I think, I think choreography is a real calling. And, you know, I haven't necessarily had that desire or that, you know, um, inspiration to start creating. Um, I mean, sometimes, like when I was younger, the idea of being an artistic director seemed amazing. Um, but as I've gotten older and seen more about the job, like, it's a, it's a really bloody hard job. Of course it is. And, you know, so sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe when I'm finished dancing, maybe I'd like to do something different. Separate to the to the world I've lived in since I was 12, you know, because that's another crazy thing. Like I've it's really all, you know, I consider myself I try to be a well-rounded person, but like, it's I've. I've literally been in the same building since I was 12 years old. The Australian Ballet School is down the hall from the Australian Ballet Company, and I started going there when I was 12, in 2008. And now I'm, you know, I'm 29.

I don't know, like I, I don't I'm not a choreographer because I think I think that's a I mean, like a lot of things, I think, I think choreography is a real calling. And, you know, I haven't necessarily had that desire or that, you know, um, inspiration to start creating. Um, I mean, sometimes, like when I was younger, the idea of being an artistic director seemed amazing. Um, but as I've gotten older and seen more about the job, like, it's a, it's a really bloody hard job. Of course it is. And, you know, so sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe when I'm finished dancing, maybe I'd like to do something different. Separate to the to the world I've lived in since I was 12, you know, because that's another crazy thing. Like I've it's really all, you know, I consider myself I try to be a well-rounded person, but like, it's I've. I've literally been in the same building since I was 12 years old. The Australian Ballet School is down the hall from the Australian Ballet Company, and I started going there when I was 12, in 2008. And now I'm, you know, I'm 29.

You're institutionalised.

You're institutionalised.

I'm institutionalised. I'm well and truly institutionalised. So then that's when I'm like, you know, if I was to continue on in a different role after being a dancer, like I could be in that same building for like 50 years, and that seems crazy.

I'm institutionalised. I'm well and truly institutionalised. So then that's when I'm like, you know, if I was to continue on in a different role after being a dancer, like I could be in that same building for like 50 years, and that seems crazy.

Or a life well spent.

Or a life well spent.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll get like a plaque or something in the building, but yeah, I don't know. I really, I oscillate between being like, oh, do I want to stay in the arts or do I want to do something different? I'm not sure it's all up in the air. So yeah, I'm taking as many suggestions as possible.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll get like a plaque or something in the building, but yeah, I don't know. I really, I oscillate between being like, oh, do I want to stay in the arts or do I want to do something different? I'm not sure it's all up in the air. So yeah, I'm taking as many suggestions as possible.

Fantastic. Maybe our listeners will have some for us. In the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. Callum. It was a pleasure to chat to you.

Fantastic. Maybe our listeners will have some for us. In the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. Callum. It was a pleasure to chat to you.

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

That was Callum Linnane, principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. In conversation with Good Weekend senior writer Conrad Marshall for the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Coming soon! We chat with American journalist and podcaster Kara Swisher about tech bros and Trump, and where she finds solace and hope in troubled times. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. And Katrina Strickland is the editor.

That was Callum Linnane, principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. In conversation with Good Weekend senior writer Conrad Marshall for the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Coming soon! We chat with American journalist and podcaster Kara Swisher about tech bros and Trump, and where she finds solace and hope in troubled times. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio. And Katrina Strickland is the editor.

Of Good Weekend.

Of Good Weekend.