Welcome a good game with Sarah Spain, where we can only hope to be as good as shit talker as Marta. After the Portland Thorns ended Orlando's twenty four game on beaten streak on Friday, team social posted quote, unbeaten records are made to be broken. Thanks for coming to Orlando with a big fat l in Orlando, and Marta popped up in the comments saying, quote, best of luck fighting for a place in the playoffs smiley face emoji. So good, so good. On today's show, we're going to be chatting with recently retired WNBA player Leja Clarendon about their eleven year career playing for basically half the league, the grief that comes with retirement, and finding a home in sport. We're going to give you more news tomorrow, but today we're going to get straight to that interview. It's coming up right after this joining us now. They played eleven seasons in the WNBA, were the first openly non binary WNBA player and the first active WNBA player to have top surgery. Former vice president of the Players Association, she uses all the pronouns and as the founder of the Laisia Clarendon Foundation. He played for the Indiana Fever, the Atlanta Dream, the Connecticut Son, the New York Liberty, the Minnesota Lynx, and the Los Angeles Sparks, and is one of just four players in Sparks franchise history to put up a triple double before announcing his retirement at the end of this season. She's a proud Berkeley alum. She and her badass wife Jessica Clarendon are enjoying the ups and downs of parenthood and we've both collected checks from the Golden State Warriors despite never suiting up. It's Leasia Clarendon.

Welcome a good game with Sarah Spain, where we can only hope to be as good as shit talker as Marta. After the Portland Thorns ended Orlando's twenty four game on beaten streak on Friday, team social posted quote, unbeaten records are made to be broken. Thanks for coming to Orlando with a big fat l in Orlando, and Marta popped up in the comments saying, quote, best of luck fighting for a place in the playoffs smiley face emoji. So good, so good. On today's show, we're going to be chatting with recently retired WNBA player Leja Clarendon about their eleven year career playing for basically half the league, the grief that comes with retirement, and finding a home in sport. We're going to give you more news tomorrow, but today we're going to get straight to that interview. It's coming up right after this joining us now. They played eleven seasons in the WNBA, were the first openly non binary WNBA player and the first active WNBA player to have top surgery. Former vice president of the Players Association, she uses all the pronouns and as the founder of the Laisia Clarendon Foundation. He played for the Indiana Fever, the Atlanta Dream, the Connecticut Son, the New York Liberty, the Minnesota Lynx, and the Los Angeles Sparks, and is one of just four players in Sparks franchise history to put up a triple double before announcing his retirement at the end of this season. She's a proud Berkeley alum. She and her badass wife Jessica Clarendon are enjoying the ups and downs of parenthood and we've both collected checks from the Golden State Warriors despite never suiting up. It's Leasia Clarendon.

What's up, Lasia, what's up? I love the I played for half the league. That's like my favorite part I really have.

What's up, Lasia, what's up? I love the I played for half the league. That's like my favorite part I really have.

I think I'm saddest about your retirement because I wanted to see if you could try to hit every team and you had to get moving because the expansion teams were going to make it a little tougher.

I think I'm saddest about your retirement because I wanted to see if you could try to hit every team and you had to get moving because the expansion teams were going to make it a little tougher.

Yeah, it last.

Yeah, it last.

Fair, fair, fair fair. Also regarding the Golden State Warriors, I met Lasia for the first time in person when we did a panel for Women's History Month for the Warriors that they were going to like do all this stuff with and it was so great to be flown out and spend time with these incredibly brilliant people. And that's when I first learned about your brilliant lesia. And then of course it never ran because COVID hit and my husband always thought it was funny though, that I had a check from the Warriors. She was like, you got to frame that and just say that You've got a couple of minutes in garbage times.

Fair, fair, fair fair. Also regarding the Golden State Warriors, I met Lasia for the first time in person when we did a panel for Women's History Month for the Warriors that they were going to like do all this stuff with and it was so great to be flown out and spend time with these incredibly brilliant people. And that's when I first learned about your brilliant lesia. And then of course it never ran because COVID hit and my husband always thought it was funny though, that I had a check from the Warriors. She was like, you got to frame that and just say that You've got a couple of minutes in garbage times.

Seriously, that was a bummer because it was a really dope just group of people and it like, yeah, never shared.

Seriously, that was a bummer because it was a really dope just group of people and it like, yeah, never shared.

I think about that like every now.

I think about that like every now.

And it's such a good conversation there.

And it's such a good conversation there.

Floating somewhere in someone's you know, desktop storage.

Floating somewhere in someone's you know, desktop storage.

Let's talk retirement first. Congratulations eleven seasons in the w You've only had a few weeks. But how's retirement treating you so far?

Let's talk retirement first. Congratulations eleven seasons in the w You've only had a few weeks. But how's retirement treating you so far?

So far?

So far?

It's amazing, no regrets, super at peace. I'm enjoying like every minute of waking up and like making my schedule.

It's amazing, no regrets, super at peace. I'm enjoying like every minute of waking up and like making my schedule.

Whatever the what can we cost on here? We definitely can oh hell yeah, okay, whatever the I want it to be.

Whatever the what can we cost on here? We definitely can oh hell yeah, okay, whatever the I want it to be.

I was like, I know it's you, Sarah, so you guys, Ale, Yeah, just making my schedule whatever I want it to be every day, which is lovely, which is just you know, like getting your body back from sports. Oh that's been like the most beautiful part about it. It's like I don't have to train today. I can just go for a walk, I could ride my bike, I could do nothing.

I was like, I know it's you, Sarah, so you guys, Ale, Yeah, just making my schedule whatever I want it to be every day, which is lovely, which is just you know, like getting your body back from sports. Oh that's been like the most beautiful part about it. It's like I don't have to train today. I can just go for a walk, I could ride my bike, I could do nothing.

That's so relatable, Thank you, because I remember talking to like Sue Bird and Megan Rapino and they struggled a bit more with that because they liked that part of it eventually, but at the very beginning, the first few days and weeks, they were like, wait, no one's telling me what to do. What am I supposed to do? If no one's telling me what to do and where to be? And you're already past that, you're like, well, on to Like, ooh, how nice. I don't have to go for a run unless I want to. I prechoose what I want to do.

That's so relatable, Thank you, because I remember talking to like Sue Bird and Megan Rapino and they struggled a bit more with that because they liked that part of it eventually, but at the very beginning, the first few days and weeks, they were like, wait, no one's telling me what to do. What am I supposed to do? If no one's telling me what to do and where to be? And you're already past that, you're like, well, on to Like, ooh, how nice. I don't have to go for a run unless I want to. I prechoose what I want to do.

I'm a Taurus and I love like opulence and luxury and taking back. I love to cook, so I've been cooking time, going to farmers Market every weekend.

I'm a Taurus and I love like opulence and luxury and taking back. I love to cook, so I've been cooking time, going to farmers Market every weekend.

Oh what a dream.

Oh what a dream.

Yeah that sounds so nice.

Yeah that sounds so nice.

The best ever, eating my best life. You said after retiring that you didn't want people to ask you what's next. You wanted to really be in the moment and appreciate what you've accomplished as a player. Have you been able to do that? I have.

The best ever, eating my best life. You said after retiring that you didn't want people to ask you what's next. You wanted to really be in the moment and appreciate what you've accomplished as a player. Have you been able to do that? I have.

I was actually talking to my therapist about that, of one, how to answer that question of just like figuring out that I am really content right now, but the pressure from the outside is that, like people keep asking me what's next?

I was actually talking to my therapist about that, of one, how to answer that question of just like figuring out that I am really content right now, but the pressure from the outside is that, like people keep asking me what's next?

What do you want to do?

What do you want to do?

And I'm actually really content right now, not knowing what's next and really just being in this reflective mode. Honestly being in a deep amount of grief. Today it feels light you, thank god I'm on this podcast. But other days it's just been heavy and I've just sobbed and cried, and I've felt the heartbreak of like losing a part of myself, of like grieving like this death of Lesia Claren in the Basketball Player. And so I've really been honoring myself, honoring my career. That's been something I've done over a decade professionally, but also my entire life of just being really in that space of like I did something for a long time and that's really beautiful, right.

And I'm actually really content right now, not knowing what's next and really just being in this reflective mode. Honestly being in a deep amount of grief. Today it feels light you, thank god I'm on this podcast. But other days it's just been heavy and I've just sobbed and cried, and I've felt the heartbreak of like losing a part of myself, of like grieving like this death of Lesia Claren in the Basketball Player. And so I've really been honoring myself, honoring my career. That's been something I've done over a decade professionally, but also my entire life of just being really in that space of like I did something for a long time and that's really beautiful, right.

Yeah, Hi, honey, Oh my god, I love that we're getting a little bit of momhood right here.

Yeah, Hi, honey, Oh my god, I love that we're getting a little bit of momhood right here.

Yeah, I hear a kid.

Yeah, I hear a kid.

Know, we're definitely keeping a little bit of that, and it's it's too cute, little just hear up the stairs, yep, okay. I love and hate the amount of introspection that retirement from sports requires at a young age, because most people, whatever it is that's their identity, they can usually do it for a really long time unless something tragically takes it away. A cook, a musician, even a dancer, they can kind of change the way their body moves, but there's only certain opportunities to really participate at the highest levels in sport, and that timeline is so short. Is there a part of you that when you thought about this coming down the pike, you had already started to think about a change in identity and how you would deal with it. Or are you finding that the finality of it has has hit you in a way that you know now you're having to process like what do I want? And who am I? And what's next?

Know, we're definitely keeping a little bit of that, and it's it's too cute, little just hear up the stairs, yep, okay. I love and hate the amount of introspection that retirement from sports requires at a young age, because most people, whatever it is that's their identity, they can usually do it for a really long time unless something tragically takes it away. A cook, a musician, even a dancer, they can kind of change the way their body moves, but there's only certain opportunities to really participate at the highest levels in sport, and that timeline is so short. Is there a part of you that when you thought about this coming down the pike, you had already started to think about a change in identity and how you would deal with it. Or are you finding that the finality of it has has hit you in a way that you know now you're having to process like what do I want? And who am I? And what's next?

Oh God, A little bit of bolt, I would say, like I in twenty nineteen was one of my first major injuries, and I'm really grateful forward I was playing for the Connecticut sign I busted my ankle in practice and I was out for three months, so just relatively like short for a major surgery like an injury. But what that injury did was I was in therapy at the time. It helped me start to examine my relationship with basketball, and I like couldn't believe basketball did that to me. I was like, how could it let me down? How could it? I've given it everything in my whole life and it's been the way I've coped and like it just I felt mad at basketball, and my.

Oh God, A little bit of bolt, I would say, like I in twenty nineteen was one of my first major injuries, and I'm really grateful forward I was playing for the Connecticut sign I busted my ankle in practice and I was out for three months, so just relatively like short for a major surgery like an injury. But what that injury did was I was in therapy at the time. It helped me start to examine my relationship with basketball, and I like couldn't believe basketball did that to me. I was like, how could it let me down? How could it? I've given it everything in my whole life and it's been the way I've coped and like it just I felt mad at basketball, and my.

Therapist was like, Oh, let's talk about this more.

Therapist was like, Oh, let's talk about this more.

And so I started to examine the way I'm in relationship with basketball, and I never thought about it that way, even though.

And so I started to examine the way I'm in relationship with basketball, and I never thought about it that way, even though.

I've done it my whole life. It's like my longest relationship with my entire life.

I've done it my whole life. It's like my longest relationship with my entire life.

And so in that way, I I would say the last five years have really prepared me for the moment to retire now because I've done a lot of work around my identity and around sport and like restructuring my relationship to the game of basketball, and I've healed quite a bit, and I think that's what allowed me to be able to walk away and be like, I know it's time.

And so in that way, I I would say the last five years have really prepared me for the moment to retire now because I've done a lot of work around my identity and around sport and like restructuring my relationship to the game of basketball, and I've healed quite a bit, and I think that's what allowed me to be able to walk away and be like, I know it's time.

This year.

This year.

In the last couple of years, I had just been wrestling with like, all right, bodies moving slower, like I'm healing. I could see some of the you know, toxic parts of sports a little more than I could before. I'm not using it to cope in the same way I was, because I feel, you know, worthy and enough, so I'm not like doing these million tasks to like prove to myself that I'm worthy. Like I was just healing, and now I could see the sport a lot differently, and I still loved the game with all my heart, but I was able to be like, all right, it's time, and my body knows it's time. My spirit, yeah, all of you was just like it's time and that's okay.

In the last couple of years, I had just been wrestling with like, all right, bodies moving slower, like I'm healing. I could see some of the you know, toxic parts of sports a little more than I could before. I'm not using it to cope in the same way I was, because I feel, you know, worthy and enough, so I'm not like doing these million tasks to like prove to myself that I'm worthy. Like I was just healing, and now I could see the sport a lot differently, and I still loved the game with all my heart, but I was able to be like, all right, it's time, and my body knows it's time. My spirit, yeah, all of you was just like it's time and that's okay.

You did such a panel at our espnW summit last year with er fight Master and Nicky Hilts, talking about trans participation in sports and gender and sport, and I remember very distinctly you speaking to not only the responsibility I think of people who identify as women in being inclusive and in understanding how to embrace non binary and trans people as part of the sort of larger effort of Women for Equality, But also you spoke to how sport played such a massive role in giving you a space to feel the most yourself, which was wild because it's one of the only truly gendered spaces we have. Can you talk about that, because I wonder if part of the reason you didn't need to cope using basketball as much is because you had decided I know my identity, I know who I am, and I don't need to look for that in sport, the same way as I used to.

You did such a panel at our espnW summit last year with er fight Master and Nicky Hilts, talking about trans participation in sports and gender and sport, and I remember very distinctly you speaking to not only the responsibility I think of people who identify as women in being inclusive and in understanding how to embrace non binary and trans people as part of the sort of larger effort of Women for Equality, But also you spoke to how sport played such a massive role in giving you a space to feel the most yourself, which was wild because it's one of the only truly gendered spaces we have. Can you talk about that, because I wonder if part of the reason you didn't need to cope using basketball as much is because you had decided I know my identity, I know who I am, and I don't need to look for that in sport, the same way as I used to.

Oh my god, yes, I forget how good of an interview you are. Yes, yes, I think that was part of it. Like I just have done so much healing and I've I don't need it, like you almost answered the question for me. I all it felt walking away, It felt like I completed, like I'm doing some handjest or such a fancy but like this full circle moment, or how people say I finished the chapter of a book, or I think I might even finish that entire book, and I think my life is going to be multiple book. And it was just like, wow, I turned the last page and it's done, and that's okay. And when you finish a really good book sometimes like you're sad because you love the characters and what it made you feel and how you belong and how you related to it, all the things. But it's okay because you finish the story. That's very much how my career feels. Is like I feel the pain and the ache, and I missed the I already missed like my teammates and those interactions, but I needed it to belong so much, and I loved that I belonged, and I loved that sport gave me, you know, an outlet for my competitive miss for my fierceness. It gave me all the coping tools to deal with family drama. It gave me, you know, tours around the world. It gave me financial stability, and I'm just out of place now with my family, with my sense of self, with my healing. Even with all the work I've done outside of sport, building my own brand and my own legacy, I would say is like that all happened through sport. But it's okay for.

Oh my god, yes, I forget how good of an interview you are. Yes, yes, I think that was part of it. Like I just have done so much healing and I've I don't need it, like you almost answered the question for me. I all it felt walking away, It felt like I completed, like I'm doing some handjest or such a fancy but like this full circle moment, or how people say I finished the chapter of a book, or I think I might even finish that entire book, and I think my life is going to be multiple book. And it was just like, wow, I turned the last page and it's done, and that's okay. And when you finish a really good book sometimes like you're sad because you love the characters and what it made you feel and how you belong and how you related to it, all the things. But it's okay because you finish the story. That's very much how my career feels. Is like I feel the pain and the ache, and I missed the I already missed like my teammates and those interactions, but I needed it to belong so much, and I loved that I belonged, and I loved that sport gave me, you know, an outlet for my competitive miss for my fierceness. It gave me all the coping tools to deal with family drama. It gave me, you know, tours around the world. It gave me financial stability, and I'm just out of place now with my family, with my sense of self, with my healing. Even with all the work I've done outside of sport, building my own brand and my own legacy, I would say is like that all happened through sport. But it's okay for.

Me to like lay down the basketball now that the playing.

Me to like lay down the basketball now that the playing.

Part of it right, and you get to be your full self everywhere instead of just getting to express parts of yourself on the court and relying on that space to be included. You know, you and I have spoken over a number of different years as you've been on this journey of identification and self discovery, and you began publicly identifying as nonsensegender back in twenty fifteen, but it wasn't until December of twenty twenty that you posted Instagram about your non binary trans identity and you wrote, quote, existing outside of the binary for me is freedom. I've learned that my gender doesn't just fit into these molds that keep trying to hold it down and box it in. I know that my gender will keep evolving because we change and grow and shape shift and expand I know that, as Andrew Gibson says, my pronouns haven't even been invented yet. I know that we all have masculinity and femininity inside of us, and mind show up equally and holy and fully. I'm wondering if you were worried at that moment that identifying as trans and using that word would affect your status as a player in the w.

Part of it right, and you get to be your full self everywhere instead of just getting to express parts of yourself on the court and relying on that space to be included. You know, you and I have spoken over a number of different years as you've been on this journey of identification and self discovery, and you began publicly identifying as nonsensegender back in twenty fifteen, but it wasn't until December of twenty twenty that you posted Instagram about your non binary trans identity and you wrote, quote, existing outside of the binary for me is freedom. I've learned that my gender doesn't just fit into these molds that keep trying to hold it down and box it in. I know that my gender will keep evolving because we change and grow and shape shift and expand I know that, as Andrew Gibson says, my pronouns haven't even been invented yet. I know that we all have masculinity and femininity inside of us, and mind show up equally and holy and fully. I'm wondering if you were worried at that moment that identifying as trans and using that word would affect your status as a player in the w.

I mean, I yeah, I definitely did at times. I think more so with surgery I was worried, which came in the following year, right of like mixing up my years of February, but a lot of There were a ton of bills going on at that time, So I was a little bit worried about always becoming like the the poster child of like the rights fight, Like I didn't want to become like the wedge issue, like my story, my body, my person, becoming like this thing that they propped up to be like look see this person, like well, basically what all the Twitter trolls do.

I mean, I yeah, I definitely did at times. I think more so with surgery I was worried, which came in the following year, right of like mixing up my years of February, but a lot of There were a ton of bills going on at that time, So I was a little bit worried about always becoming like the the poster child of like the rights fight, Like I didn't want to become like the wedge issue, like my story, my body, my person, becoming like this thing that they propped up to be like look see this person, like well, basically what all the Twitter trolls do.

I didn't want that to become.

I didn't want that to become.

Like knocking on my front door and the way that would affect me and my family. But I really struggled with going through the bubble season where I knew so in the bubble season in twenty twenty was when I knew I didn't want to have breast anymore. And I was starting to reconcile with like, oh, okay, I'm definitely like a trans person, like an umbrella term, like what does that mean? I'm gender nonconforming, I'm gender fluid, like just all of those words that like sometimes help us, sometimes make it more confusing, but I definitely knew. I was like, all right, I'm a trans person. I don't want these breasts anymore. And I really struggled with the fact like in the bubble that like that wasn't visible and I was one of the main leaders that was being seen as like a black queer woman, but wasn't being seen as like a black.

Like knocking on my front door and the way that would affect me and my family. But I really struggled with going through the bubble season where I knew so in the bubble season in twenty twenty was when I knew I didn't want to have breast anymore. And I was starting to reconcile with like, oh, okay, I'm definitely like a trans person, like an umbrella term, like what does that mean? I'm gender nonconforming, I'm gender fluid, like just all of those words that like sometimes help us, sometimes make it more confusing, but I definitely knew. I was like, all right, I'm a trans person. I don't want these breasts anymore. And I really struggled with the fact like in the bubble that like that wasn't visible and I was one of the main leaders that was being seen as like a black queer woman, but wasn't being seen as like a black.

Queer trans person.

Queer trans person.

And that was a really hard just like mental reckoning for myself. And I wasn't quite ready or didn't know how to like say it, like hey, you guys, you know the person leading this movement is actually like a trans person. And that was a weird I don't even know how to word it, just invisible visibility that was happening for me internally, And so that December post for me was like, no, it's time to just say it out loud for myself and to just put it out into the ether that like, yes, I'm a trans person, like let's make it clear. Even though I still had breast at the time, I was kind of learning you didn't have to like, you know, like surgery doesn't make you who you are.

And that was a really hard just like mental reckoning for myself. And I wasn't quite ready or didn't know how to like say it, like hey, you guys, you know the person leading this movement is actually like a trans person. And that was a weird I don't even know how to word it, just invisible visibility that was happening for me internally, And so that December post for me was like, no, it's time to just say it out loud for myself and to just put it out into the ether that like, yes, I'm a trans person, like let's make it clear. Even though I still had breast at the time, I was kind of learning you didn't have to like, you know, like surgery doesn't make you who you are.

It was me.

It was me.

Getting to a place where I'm just like, all right, I need to say this and put a stake in the ground for myself.

Getting to a place where I'm just like, all right, I need to say this and put a stake in the ground for myself.

Well, not long after, it was January of twenty twenty one, that you publicly announced that you had the gender affirming top surgery. Can you take us back at that time, how did your team, which was the Liberty, your teammates, the league, did anyone react to the to the surgery and your identity in a way that was unexpected or did you feel supported?

Well, not long after, it was January of twenty twenty one, that you publicly announced that you had the gender affirming top surgery. Can you take us back at that time, how did your team, which was the Liberty, your teammates, the league, did anyone react to the to the surgery and your identity in a way that was unexpected or did you feel supported?

I felt super supported, and I did a lot of the like internal advocacy work for myself, which I hope, I actually know will blaze a trail for other people because it won't be the first time let's say player X, you know, goes to Terry Jackson or to Kathy to say, hey, I'm going to have the surgery or I'm going to come out as trans like they already have done it. But I had to do a lot of that labor and talking with Terry, and she was great, and she had to get educated in a lot of ways, and her and I are super close. Terry Jackson the head of the union, And then we would get on a phone call with Kathy Angle, our commissioner, and talk about like, Hey, I'm worried about I'm having this surgery.

I felt super supported, and I did a lot of the like internal advocacy work for myself, which I hope, I actually know will blaze a trail for other people because it won't be the first time let's say player X, you know, goes to Terry Jackson or to Kathy to say, hey, I'm going to have the surgery or I'm going to come out as trans like they already have done it. But I had to do a lot of that labor and talking with Terry, and she was great, and she had to get educated in a lot of ways, and her and I are super close. Terry Jackson the head of the union, And then we would get on a phone call with Kathy Angle, our commissioner, and talk about like, Hey, I'm worried about I'm having this surgery.

I'm worried about when I announced it.

I'm worried about when I announced it.

Because I want to say it publicly that I'm going to become like this big issue. So I just named it to them, and Kathy was super firming and was like, you absolutely belong in our league.

Because I want to say it publicly that I'm going to become like this big issue. So I just named it to them, and Kathy was super firming and was like, you absolutely belong in our league.

This changes nothing, Like I teared up. I'm getting a little choked up right now, like thinking back on it.

This changes nothing, Like I teared up. I'm getting a little choked up right now, like thinking back on it.

Yeah, because I just hearing the commissioner of your league like affirm your identity and who you are and also say like you still belong here was really important for me. And so yeah, it was happening internally. And then I said, I need you guys to put out a statement the same day I post.

Yeah, because I just hearing the commissioner of your league like affirm your identity and who you are and also say like you still belong here was really important for me. And so yeah, it was happening internally. And then I said, I need you guys to put out a statement the same day I post.

So then when people look right and say, oh, this is okay.

So then when people look right and say, oh, this is okay.

This WA player posted about Chance being Chance having comp surgery, like then they're going to live to the league and the Union and the New York Liberty and be like what does this mean? And what it means is like what Kathy's statement said, what everyone's statement said was like, I don't know.

This WA player posted about Chance being Chance having comp surgery, like then they're going to live to the league and the Union and the New York Liberty and be like what does this mean? And what it means is like what Kathy's statement said, what everyone's statement said was like, I don't know.

It was great, it was beautiful. It was like we accept Asia, there's a place for them in this league. Blah blah blah blah.

It was great, it was beautiful. It was like we accept Asia, there's a place for them in this league. Blah blah blah blah.

And it was like that leadership kind of like it didn't give room for question for people to turn it into a debate because the leadership was leading the way it should right when a player like me did come.

And it was like that leadership kind of like it didn't give room for question for people to turn it into a debate because the leadership was leading the way it should right when a player like me did come.

Yep oh, and the Liberty sent out a statement using pronouns for all the players. So that wasn't about reacting, It was about being proactive to make sure that people were dealing with that professionally and respectfully as well. What do you think the biggest most common misconception is about you competing as a transperson something that you want to debunk.

Yep oh, and the Liberty sent out a statement using pronouns for all the players. So that wasn't about reacting, It was about being proactive to make sure that people were dealing with that professionally and respectfully as well. What do you think the biggest most common misconception is about you competing as a transperson something that you want to debunk.

I mean, I don't go on Twitter anymore, but that one's usually like there and I'm like, thanks you really, seev.

I mean, I don't go on Twitter anymore, but that one's usually like there and I'm like, thanks you really, seev.

Yeah, that's very affirming. Thank you exactly.

Yeah, that's very affirming. Thank you exactly.

I like, yeah, I love it, Thanks, appreciate it.

I like, yeah, I love it, Thanks, appreciate it.

Er fight Master on their podcast Jocular, which I'm obsessed with the other day, said they got in a fight with a woman like driving that was driving terribly and the woman was like, just because you look like a dude doesn't mean you could try, and and Er was like, thank you.

Er fight Master on their podcast Jocular, which I'm obsessed with the other day, said they got in a fight with a woman like driving that was driving terribly and the woman was like, just because you look like a dude doesn't mean you could try, and and Er was like, thank you.

That's so boring.

That's so boring.

Uh do you think? I mean? I think, first of all, great that you're not on Twitter listening to that garbage, but also great that you can't think of one that people seem to really get it And understand, and I think that's part of the W being such a progressive league. Do you think there are any changes that the league could make that would benefit other trans or non binary players in the future as the league continues to grow.

Uh do you think? I mean? I think, first of all, great that you're not on Twitter listening to that garbage, but also great that you can't think of one that people seem to really get it And understand, and I think that's part of the W being such a progressive league. Do you think there are any changes that the league could make that would benefit other trans or non binary players in the future as the league continues to grow.

Well, I think one the league and internally the un has done a good job having educational sessions, so I know that there have been players who've had questions, which there's no problem with questions or curiosities.

Well, I think one the league and internally the un has done a good job having educational sessions, so I know that there have been players who've had questions, which there's no problem with questions or curiosities.

There was some players at AU when we.

There was some players at AU when we.

Had the year I played at Athletes Unlimited, we had Chris Moser come and do an educational series and questions. Players there from the W have questions and it was interesting because I was able to like witness them because normally I'm not in the room, and I specifically when we did the WNBA trainings, I said like, I shouldn't be there because one like people should feel safe enough to just ask whatever question might feel silly or dumb or defensive even but if I'm in the room, I don't feel.

Had the year I played at Athletes Unlimited, we had Chris Moser come and do an educational series and questions. Players there from the W have questions and it was interesting because I was able to like witness them because normally I'm not in the room, and I specifically when we did the WNBA trainings, I said like, I shouldn't be there because one like people should feel safe enough to just ask whatever question might feel silly or dumb or defensive even but if I'm in the room, I don't feel.

Like people will ask that, right.

Like people will ask that, right.

So like the educational sessions the W's done have been really good, and I made sure to be out of that space so they could have them and have the room to ask all the things and debunk all the myths and whatever they need to say. So I think they can continue to have the educational sessions because that's always been what our league has done.

So like the educational sessions the W's done have been really good, and I made sure to be out of that space so they could have them and have the room to ask all the things and debunk all the myths and whatever they need to say. So I think they can continue to have the educational sessions because that's always been what our league has done.

From a player's perspective, is like educate ourselves.

From a player's perspective, is like educate ourselves.

First and know that it's okay to ask questions and not know and be like, hey, I hear these some these are some of the rumors, or these are things I hear about testosterone, or these are things I hear about trans people. So I think the second thing the league can do is continue to market, not continue to shift the way we market our gender non conforming players. So I think, like there's all these marketing dollars going towards the league right now, which is so beautiful, Like the Skims campaign is amazing, Like I love love seeing can bring my teammate in and like everyone just looks like amazing.

First and know that it's okay to ask questions and not know and be like, hey, I hear these some these are some of the rumors, or these are things I hear about testosterone, or these are things I hear about trans people. So I think the second thing the league can do is continue to market, not continue to shift the way we market our gender non conforming players. So I think, like there's all these marketing dollars going towards the league right now, which is so beautiful, Like the Skims campaign is amazing, Like I love love seeing can bring my teammate in and like everyone just looks like amazing.

I love seeing like these.

I love seeing like these.

Really nailed it. It's beautiful but not sexualized and that was necessary.

Really nailed it. It's beautiful but not sexualized and that was necessary.

Yes, Like that is so much growth. So like these high end dollars, Like we're at this place in our league. We're like I'm walking in with these two rookies on my team and they're wearing like Gucci boots and I'm like, where did you guys get these? Like you guys got money now, Like this is amazing, Like you got these nil deals, You've got multiple pair of these boots, Like you know you're not on the same rookie salary I was on.

Yes, Like that is so much growth. So like these high end dollars, Like we're at this place in our league. We're like I'm walking in with these two rookies on my team and they're wearing like Gucci boots and I'm like, where did you guys get these? Like you guys got money now, Like this is amazing, Like you got these nil deals, You've got multiple pair of these boots, Like you know you're not on the same rookie salary I was on.

And I love that.

And I love that.

And I still think our league also always struggles with not marketing the people who are masculine, and so you kind of saw the like Natasha Clouds and Kirsten Bells talk about like what about a Walkser campaign, Like are we yes market our fem people who are beautiful? But like there's such a spectrum of gender expression in our league, right, and we know gender expression has nothing to do with your sexual orientation or your gender identity.

And I still think our league also always struggles with not marketing the people who are masculine, and so you kind of saw the like Natasha Clouds and Kirsten Bells talk about like what about a Walkser campaign, Like are we yes market our fem people who are beautiful? But like there's such a spectrum of gender expression in our league, right, and we know gender expression has nothing to do with your sexual orientation or your gender identity.

It is just literally how you express yourself in your gender. And we have people who.

It is just literally how you express yourself in your gender. And we have people who.

Express themselves across the board in a beautiful, like amazing, gorgeous even secon see like competitive, like eclectic way. We've seen the tunnel Fits evolve in such a really really cool way. So like are we marketing? I always I talked about Simone Augustus on that panel, like marketing the Simone Augustus of our era, Like are we learning, is the WNBA learning how they missed out on the simone? So like is Courtney Williams getting the marketing deals she should get? Now?

Express themselves across the board in a beautiful, like amazing, gorgeous even secon see like competitive, like eclectic way. We've seen the tunnel Fits evolve in such a really really cool way. So like are we marketing? I always I talked about Simone Augustus on that panel, like marketing the Simone Augustus of our era, Like are we learning, is the WNBA learning how they missed out on the simone? So like is Courtney Williams getting the marketing deals she should get? Now?

Are we thinking of the Natasha cloud?

Are we thinking of the Natasha cloud?

And how much is that the league versus the sponsors? And how do you get sponsors to step up and be in a space and understand that there's this big market that's also looking to be like, to be seen, to be represented. Yes, we're going to take a quick break. Plenty more from Lesia Clarendon right after this. For decades there were trans folks competing in sports and they abided by all the different rules and policies across different levels and age groups and states. There were really no issues or controversies. And then in recent years trans participation started to be politicized and laws were added to exclude trans athletes or public shaming, you know, forfeiting matches, lawsuits, all this stuff, and this push really it relies on perpetuating a lie that trans athletes are dominant and dangerous, that it's unfair, that it's threatening to women's sports, which is particularly frustrating when it's people saying that who could not give a shit about any other aspect of women's sports that needs things like resources and safety and everything else. Yeah, so how do we get people to see past that propaganda and fear mongering to the reality of the situation, which in some cases is one trans female athlete in an entire state that they are making a law around, for in Utah, that they are making a law around only one of them participating in women's sports. Like, how do we how do we You're so smart, how do we get people to stop believing this garbage?

And how much is that the league versus the sponsors? And how do you get sponsors to step up and be in a space and understand that there's this big market that's also looking to be like, to be seen, to be represented. Yes, we're going to take a quick break. Plenty more from Lesia Clarendon right after this. For decades there were trans folks competing in sports and they abided by all the different rules and policies across different levels and age groups and states. There were really no issues or controversies. And then in recent years trans participation started to be politicized and laws were added to exclude trans athletes or public shaming, you know, forfeiting matches, lawsuits, all this stuff, and this push really it relies on perpetuating a lie that trans athletes are dominant and dangerous, that it's unfair, that it's threatening to women's sports, which is particularly frustrating when it's people saying that who could not give a shit about any other aspect of women's sports that needs things like resources and safety and everything else. Yeah, so how do we get people to see past that propaganda and fear mongering to the reality of the situation, which in some cases is one trans female athlete in an entire state that they are making a law around, for in Utah, that they are making a law around only one of them participating in women's sports. Like, how do we how do we You're so smart, how do we get people to stop believing this garbage?

I know?

I know?

I mean I think you have to ask to the question of the heart of like where the people are coming from? Do they want to be educated on this topic? Like education is one I think is really important. There's a lot of disinformation out there, which is different from misinformation, right, like people are like intentionally maliciously. The right is like putting out information to make you feel like trans people are taking over the sport and so kind of debunking now, which I know there's orgs like the Women's Sports Foundation, and there's people like Chris Moser and a lot of other trans athletes who do do a ton of like educational videos when topics come up. So, I mean, some ways I'm at a loss for words because I'm like, it's just not frankly true. And then I love the story of myself. That's like, I'm five foot nine, I've played in the WMA for ten years. I came out as trans in twenty one. I've played three more seasons, and it's like, you know, I had a really solid career before I came out as trans. I was already a All star, Like I didn't start dunking all of a sudden.

I mean I think you have to ask to the question of the heart of like where the people are coming from? Do they want to be educated on this topic? Like education is one I think is really important. There's a lot of disinformation out there, which is different from misinformation, right, like people are like intentionally maliciously. The right is like putting out information to make you feel like trans people are taking over the sport and so kind of debunking now, which I know there's orgs like the Women's Sports Foundation, and there's people like Chris Moser and a lot of other trans athletes who do do a ton of like educational videos when topics come up. So, I mean, some ways I'm at a loss for words because I'm like, it's just not frankly true. And then I love the story of myself. That's like, I'm five foot nine, I've played in the WMA for ten years. I came out as trans in twenty one. I've played three more seasons, and it's like, you know, I had a really solid career before I came out as trans. I was already a All star, Like I didn't start dunking all of a sudden.

That might have been cool.

That might have been cool.

You know, it kind of hurts your hands when you do, Like it's like, yeah, we don't become superhuman. And so I think my question is always at the heart of like we know these people exist, and one is like starting with our humanity, like do you When I'm in a conversation with the person, it's like, do you even believe I should exist?

You know, it kind of hurts your hands when you do, Like it's like, yeah, we don't become superhuman. And so I think my question is always at the heart of like we know these people exist, and one is like starting with our humanity, like do you When I'm in a conversation with the person, it's like, do you even believe I should exist?

And it's answers no.

And it's answers no.

Then I'm like, Okay, I don't like have a good day because I'm not going to debate or talk to you about it if you believe and no chance people are real and you're just like wait, okay, I keep hearing this stuff Like then that's where like we can have the conversation when we can talk about more of the education and talk about the misinformation and disinformation out there. But like, frankly, if you don't believe like trans people or people should have a right to abortion or like to my body, then I'm like you right, Like we're trying to break these people out and like take our country back, and that's.

Then I'm like, Okay, I don't like have a good day because I'm not going to debate or talk to you about it if you believe and no chance people are real and you're just like wait, okay, I keep hearing this stuff Like then that's where like we can have the conversation when we can talk about more of the education and talk about the misinformation and disinformation out there. But like, frankly, if you don't believe like trans people or people should have a right to abortion or like to my body, then I'm like you right, Like we're trying to break these people out and like take our country back, and that's.

Yeah, it's hard to it's hard to get anywhere if you can't start with the basic premise of like respect, right, yes, respect for who people are. Yeah, PABULATORI did a really fantastic interview actually with the one trans female athlete in Ohio that they were making laws that we're going to affect just her. So I highly recommend people go find that episode. But I think giving specifics and giving real people behind these stories is one place to start. But yeah, if anyone has brilliant ideas on how to get people to stop repeating the lies and the fear mongering that's behind all this, that would be great. And I'm not speaking to the politicians. I think it's quite clear that their intent is to put women in their place and to try to get back to some sort of Christo fascist idea of what people's lives should look like and force them into those binaries. But I mean, I mean regular people might still be able to be suited into understanding the nuances of the situation. Okay, I want to talk about your WNB experience because we mentioned that you played for half the league, which means you've got a lot of perspective to offer. Can you tell like some of the biggest differences among the many franchises you played for. Is there something that stands out to you about culture, or resources, or attitude or or anything that's like, you know, You've been to all these places and here's what I came away with.

Yeah, it's hard to it's hard to get anywhere if you can't start with the basic premise of like respect, right, yes, respect for who people are. Yeah, PABULATORI did a really fantastic interview actually with the one trans female athlete in Ohio that they were making laws that we're going to affect just her. So I highly recommend people go find that episode. But I think giving specifics and giving real people behind these stories is one place to start. But yeah, if anyone has brilliant ideas on how to get people to stop repeating the lies and the fear mongering that's behind all this, that would be great. And I'm not speaking to the politicians. I think it's quite clear that their intent is to put women in their place and to try to get back to some sort of Christo fascist idea of what people's lives should look like and force them into those binaries. But I mean, I mean regular people might still be able to be suited into understanding the nuances of the situation. Okay, I want to talk about your WNB experience because we mentioned that you played for half the league, which means you've got a lot of perspective to offer. Can you tell like some of the biggest differences among the many franchises you played for. Is there something that stands out to you about culture, or resources, or attitude or or anything that's like, you know, You've been to all these places and here's what I came away with.

So I've played for all three ownership models, which is really fascinating. So we have the casino ownership model, which is like Vegas and Connecticut, so I played for Connecticut. We have the independent ownership model with Kelly Loffler in Atlanta, and I played for the NBA affiliated Indiana is where I was drafted, and also Minnesota, so in New York and so.

So I've played for all three ownership models, which is really fascinating. So we have the casino ownership model, which is like Vegas and Connecticut, so I played for Connecticut. We have the independent ownership model with Kelly Loffler in Atlanta, and I played for the NBA affiliated Indiana is where I was drafted, and also Minnesota, so in New York and so.

A lot of the I would say.

A lot of the I would say.

NBA and casino were the best resource, which makes sense because independent ownership was a lot tougher. I think the Seattle Storm have done a good job of that for years as independent owned owned teams, but playing in Indiana where I was drafted, where we just had a practice cord and there was so much equality from the beginning of how we were treated. I was at New York at the tail end of just when they finished building that locker, when I was done playing for that team, and just saw like the level of like wealth and money and resources that was being poured into like the women's side of the game. And so I've also played for a decade, so just seeing how from twenty thirteen to twenty four or the money's changed and the investment has changed, has been really fascinating. The Minnesota Links were one of my favorite teams to play for because they have a culture of winning and like Cheryl Reeve is a coach that like is gonna demand when you step on the court that there's a level to which you play with And I think you're seeing that in the finals right now, Like you and I remember stepping on her core and there's like a little bit of fear. You're just like, oh shit, like a fight, Like you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you step on that core. And it's very reminiscent to me of Lynn Dunn, and that's who coached me my rookie year, and she was so hard on me. And I think like Lyndun, Stephanie White, and Cheryl Reeve are like three of the best coaches that I've ever played for. And it's their attention to detail, their ability to build relationships with players, and there are standards that they set across the board. They don't care who you are, Like Lyn Dunn did not care if itels Tamika Catchings or Leisiah Clarendon. Cheryl Reeve does not care if it's an a FISA Collier or her rookie Peelee, Like she's gonna hold them to the exact same standard of like you when you're out here, like you better when you still up between these lines, you better show the up or get off my court. Like I like when that had said that, when there's times where if you messed up my rookie year, there was no time to keep going over things, she would literally say get off the court next, and then I would be like, oh my god, like don't cry, don't try, don't cry, stuff off, Oh my god.

NBA and casino were the best resource, which makes sense because independent ownership was a lot tougher. I think the Seattle Storm have done a good job of that for years as independent owned owned teams, but playing in Indiana where I was drafted, where we just had a practice cord and there was so much equality from the beginning of how we were treated. I was at New York at the tail end of just when they finished building that locker, when I was done playing for that team, and just saw like the level of like wealth and money and resources that was being poured into like the women's side of the game. And so I've also played for a decade, so just seeing how from twenty thirteen to twenty four or the money's changed and the investment has changed, has been really fascinating. The Minnesota Links were one of my favorite teams to play for because they have a culture of winning and like Cheryl Reeve is a coach that like is gonna demand when you step on the court that there's a level to which you play with And I think you're seeing that in the finals right now, Like you and I remember stepping on her core and there's like a little bit of fear. You're just like, oh shit, like a fight, Like you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you step on that core. And it's very reminiscent to me of Lynn Dunn, and that's who coached me my rookie year, and she was so hard on me. And I think like Lyndun, Stephanie White, and Cheryl Reeve are like three of the best coaches that I've ever played for. And it's their attention to detail, their ability to build relationships with players, and there are standards that they set across the board. They don't care who you are, Like Lyn Dunn did not care if itels Tamika Catchings or Leisiah Clarendon. Cheryl Reeve does not care if it's an a FISA Collier or her rookie Peelee, Like she's gonna hold them to the exact same standard of like you when you're out here, like you better when you still up between these lines, you better show the up or get off my court. Like I like when that had said that, when there's times where if you messed up my rookie year, there was no time to keep going over things, she would literally say get off the court next, and then I would be like, oh my god, like don't cry, don't try, don't cry, stuff off, Oh my god.

Yep.

Yep.

Set the expectation for sure, you mentioned that you were leaving the Liberty right when they were building the locker room, and obviously the Liberty has changed a ton in recent years. But it felt like there was a strange ending for you. You had played a lot of minutes, you had been a big participant, and then when the Liberty waved you you were playing. You know, you'd played like three minutes in that first couple of games. It felt like there was some either unfinished business or some sadness around that that felt like bigger than just the general sadness of being waived. Can you speak to that.

Set the expectation for sure, you mentioned that you were leaving the Liberty right when they were building the locker room, and obviously the Liberty has changed a ton in recent years. But it felt like there was a strange ending for you. You had played a lot of minutes, you had been a big participant, and then when the Liberty waved you you were playing. You know, you'd played like three minutes in that first couple of games. It felt like there was some either unfinished business or some sadness around that that felt like bigger than just the general sadness of being waived. Can you speak to that.

It's something I might write in the book one day. It might just be something I like go. But there was definitely some internal what's the word I'm looking for, like internal issues that I was having with the New York Liberty. And it's no shocker that I was waived, or it should be a shock when I was on a guaranteed contract. I played great for them in the bubble season as a leader. I signed it to your deal, and then I'm waived that season after clearly being squashed to the end of the bench. So I think you can put some of the pieces together. I'm not ready to talk about it publicly, and it might be something I write about one day, but it definitely was like it ended with a dirty, nasty taste in my mouth and was not treated very well, specifically that by the basketball and GM side of it. The front office of the New York Liberty is still phenomenal. I think Sandy's phenomenal as a coach there. They've cleared out the house there, and Kiah Clark's amazing. I still keep in touch with quite a few people at the New York Liberty, but it was a very specific aspect of it on the basketball side.

It's something I might write in the book one day. It might just be something I like go. But there was definitely some internal what's the word I'm looking for, like internal issues that I was having with the New York Liberty. And it's no shocker that I was waived, or it should be a shock when I was on a guaranteed contract. I played great for them in the bubble season as a leader. I signed it to your deal, and then I'm waived that season after clearly being squashed to the end of the bench. So I think you can put some of the pieces together. I'm not ready to talk about it publicly, and it might be something I write about one day, but it definitely was like it ended with a dirty, nasty taste in my mouth and was not treated very well, specifically that by the basketball and GM side of it. The front office of the New York Liberty is still phenomenal. I think Sandy's phenomenal as a coach there. They've cleared out the house there, and Kiah Clark's amazing. I still keep in touch with quite a few people at the New York Liberty, but it was a very specific aspect of it on the basketball side.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know you mentioned how important it was for Katy Engeler to affirm you and your identity when you announced you had top surgery. That feels like a contrast a little bit to what we've seen with players discussing receiving the hateful and racist messages this season. Kathy sort of dropped the ball when asked about that topic on a CNBC show. And I know people aren't monolists. Kathy can do a lot of great things and also sort of struggle to answer or speak to some of these issues that players are talking about. Now, Why do you think there was a disconnect on that issue though, between what the players were experienced and maybe Kathy was either aware of or able to speak to.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know you mentioned how important it was for Katy Engeler to affirm you and your identity when you announced you had top surgery. That feels like a contrast a little bit to what we've seen with players discussing receiving the hateful and racist messages this season. Kathy sort of dropped the ball when asked about that topic on a CNBC show. And I know people aren't monolists. Kathy can do a lot of great things and also sort of struggle to answer or speak to some of these issues that players are talking about. Now, Why do you think there was a disconnect on that issue though, between what the players were experienced and maybe Kathy was either aware of or able to speak to.

I still think in this moment in time, it's much easier now to talk about LGBT inclusion than to.

I still think in this moment in time, it's much easier now to talk about LGBT inclusion than to.

Talk about racism, hands down.

Talk about racism, hands down.

So I think it's Kathy struggling with and our holy grappling with like Caitlin Clark's coming into the league, the fan base, and how do we talk about this nuanced conversation of race and like all of these things, Like the podcast could be just on this topic alone, like we could.

So I think it's Kathy struggling with and our holy grappling with like Caitlin Clark's coming into the league, the fan base, and how do we talk about this nuanced conversation of race and like all of these things, Like the podcast could be just on this topic alone, like we could.

Start one just to like get into all of these topics.

Start one just to like get into all of these topics.

So I think that's just Kathy struggling, frankly as a white woman to talk about race, and maybe some fear about the backlash of the fan base or Caitlyn's you know, fan base from Iowa.

So I think that's just Kathy struggling, frankly as a white woman to talk about race, and maybe some fear about the backlash of the fan base or Caitlyn's you know, fan base from Iowa.

So I'm not sure there, But I.

So I'm not sure there, But I.

Know I've seen the ways that people will step up for queerness but really still struggle with blackness. And that's again where someone like me sets up the intersections of those identities and it's sucks to see. And I think it's just the players definitely expected more from her. But I think it's that just not being ready or willing or also equipped to talk about racism in a way of like I basically major in sociology at CALL, and people always like, how are you going to use that?

Know I've seen the ways that people will step up for queerness but really still struggle with blackness. And that's again where someone like me sets up the intersections of those identities and it's sucks to see. And I think it's just the players definitely expected more from her. But I think it's that just not being ready or willing or also equipped to talk about racism in a way of like I basically major in sociology at CALL, and people always like, how are you going to use that?

And it's like, that's literally what my career has come to me.

And it's like, that's literally what my career has come to me.

And so like when you're looking at the w and covering it, it's like you do almost need like to at least take a class on intersectionality because there's so many factors happening.

And so like when you're looking at the w and covering it, it's like you do almost need like to at least take a class on intersectionality because there's so many factors happening.

It's not as easy to just show up and cover it.

It's not as easy to just show up and cover it.

Like a men's hockey league, right, you maybe have some international like topics there about, but it's not you're not just talking about predominantly mostly a bunch of white guys, a bunch of white dis guys, right.

Like a men's hockey league, right, you maybe have some international like topics there about, but it's not you're not just talking about predominantly mostly a bunch of white guys, a bunch of white dis guys, right.

And you so like when you look at our league and you're talking about.

And you so like when you look at our league and you're talking about.

Race and gender and sexuality, right and at a moment in time when an election is coming and a star player who is white, who people are saying has basically saved our league, which we know is not true, which is also coming out of time where the growth of our league has been like bursting at the seams. And also like the players are so damn excited for our young players to come in. Like, once a player comes into our league, like there ares, that's what our league does. It's like you're a part of us now. So we're rallying up everybody to be good, Like it doesn't matter who you are, Angel Caitlin, like in all the rookies, We're like, you're ours, and now you're a part of a legacy that says we speak up for social justice right, like we don't just ignore these issues. And so I think we're seeing some of that all swirling in the players and in the zyguys.

Race and gender and sexuality, right and at a moment in time when an election is coming and a star player who is white, who people are saying has basically saved our league, which we know is not true, which is also coming out of time where the growth of our league has been like bursting at the seams. And also like the players are so damn excited for our young players to come in. Like, once a player comes into our league, like there ares, that's what our league does. It's like you're a part of us now. So we're rallying up everybody to be good, Like it doesn't matter who you are, Angel Caitlin, like in all the rookies, We're like, you're ours, and now you're a part of a legacy that says we speak up for social justice right, like we don't just ignore these issues. And so I think we're seeing some of that all swirling in the players and in the zyguys.

Absolutely this season. Yeah, And I would have hoped Kathy could have done a better job of putting us in the ground.

Absolutely this season. Yeah, And I would have hoped Kathy could have done a better job of putting us in the ground.

Yeah, I completely agree, And I think in the position that she's in, it's necessary to do the work to be able to do that, you know, in a very honest moment, I'll tell you a bunch of years ago, I remember I was talking to my buddy Scoop Jackson, who's a longtime basketball writer ESPN guy, and I was telling him that someone had messaged me and said, how come you wear LGBTQ plus ally shirts like love Winds and Rainbow stuff and you'll you never wear anything for like Black History Month, and I said, I feel like I would be like made fun of or accused of appropriating, or it doesn't feel comfortable in the same way to be an ally to that group. But I don't know why I am an ally, but I don't. It doesn't feel the same. And I remember talking to Scoop about it and saying, why does it feel like allyship for LGBTQIA plus comes easily and is embraced, and allyship sometimes in terms of race is so much more complicated and fraught. And one of the things he said that was sort of a wake up for me and for a lot of other white women and white people I think, is that there's an expectation of a cert amount of work having been done that oftentimes isn't so if you come to the space and hope that they'll be happy that you're an ally, but you don't show that you really get it, there's a frustration there of how are we still here? And I felt then years later in twenty twenty, when everything happened with George Floyd, that was writ large right, It was yeah, we've been saying this, and yeah, you don't get to just read white fragility now and then be like, oh, got it. My bad. You should have been here, you should have known this, you should have asked about this, This should have mattered to you before now. And I think for a lot of white people who think they're doing their best like that sucks to feel like, Oh, I haven't been doing my best. There's a lot more I should have done, and that I think doesn't happen quite as much in the queer community right. And it's not a simple explanation, but I love that you said that, and I do think that's maybe why Kathy felt like this is easy ze breezy to say you're included and we love you, and struggles a little bit to speak to the nuance of the race issues that the league is dealing with. There is so much intersectionality that that has dominated so much of the conversation around the league this year, and it's necessary and helpful and it's moving us forward, but it also at times has kept us from like straight up talking about basketball, which has been amazing. Yes, I do want to make sure we talk about the WNBA Finals while you're here too, because you have been playing in these games against these teams and players as recently as just a couple of weeks ago, so you are uniquely positioned to talk to us about some of this. And you mentioned you played for Cheryl Reeve. Game one and two, the Links were playing catchup almost from the jump. If you're in the huddle Wednesday, what do you think coach Reeve is telling her team before tip off about not allowing the Liberty to get off to a hot start in game three and start that again.

Yeah, I completely agree, And I think in the position that she's in, it's necessary to do the work to be able to do that, you know, in a very honest moment, I'll tell you a bunch of years ago, I remember I was talking to my buddy Scoop Jackson, who's a longtime basketball writer ESPN guy, and I was telling him that someone had messaged me and said, how come you wear LGBTQ plus ally shirts like love Winds and Rainbow stuff and you'll you never wear anything for like Black History Month, and I said, I feel like I would be like made fun of or accused of appropriating, or it doesn't feel comfortable in the same way to be an ally to that group. But I don't know why I am an ally, but I don't. It doesn't feel the same. And I remember talking to Scoop about it and saying, why does it feel like allyship for LGBTQIA plus comes easily and is embraced, and allyship sometimes in terms of race is so much more complicated and fraught. And one of the things he said that was sort of a wake up for me and for a lot of other white women and white people I think, is that there's an expectation of a cert amount of work having been done that oftentimes isn't so if you come to the space and hope that they'll be happy that you're an ally, but you don't show that you really get it, there's a frustration there of how are we still here? And I felt then years later in twenty twenty, when everything happened with George Floyd, that was writ large right, It was yeah, we've been saying this, and yeah, you don't get to just read white fragility now and then be like, oh, got it. My bad. You should have been here, you should have known this, you should have asked about this, This should have mattered to you before now. And I think for a lot of white people who think they're doing their best like that sucks to feel like, Oh, I haven't been doing my best. There's a lot more I should have done, and that I think doesn't happen quite as much in the queer community right. And it's not a simple explanation, but I love that you said that, and I do think that's maybe why Kathy felt like this is easy ze breezy to say you're included and we love you, and struggles a little bit to speak to the nuance of the race issues that the league is dealing with. There is so much intersectionality that that has dominated so much of the conversation around the league this year, and it's necessary and helpful and it's moving us forward, but it also at times has kept us from like straight up talking about basketball, which has been amazing. Yes, I do want to make sure we talk about the WNBA Finals while you're here too, because you have been playing in these games against these teams and players as recently as just a couple of weeks ago, so you are uniquely positioned to talk to us about some of this. And you mentioned you played for Cheryl Reeve. Game one and two, the Links were playing catchup almost from the jump. If you're in the huddle Wednesday, what do you think coach Reeve is telling her team before tip off about not allowing the Liberty to get off to a hot start in game three and start that again.

Oh, I mean, one, they've watched a ton of film on why they had the bad starts and what they did, so they better come out of the cannon like protecting home court. So I know she's you know, probably already used a lot of the cuss words, but she's also will build you new ones. Yeah, mitning new ones is like, let's can go like we're not playing around. We're at home now, like we need to handle business, you know. And the Links usually are a team that gets out to good start, so it was a little shocking to see how much New York jumped on them. But New York's at home, so like that was to be expected, and I wasn't expecting the seventeen point lead but she's definitely telling them like pick at the up, or you're coming out or calling time out, like we can't. We can't keep doing that and expect to win a championship, right because we're playing a really good team.

Oh, I mean, one, they've watched a ton of film on why they had the bad starts and what they did, so they better come out of the cannon like protecting home court. So I know she's you know, probably already used a lot of the cuss words, but she's also will build you new ones. Yeah, mitning new ones is like, let's can go like we're not playing around. We're at home now, like we need to handle business, you know. And the Links usually are a team that gets out to good start, so it was a little shocking to see how much New York jumped on them. But New York's at home, so like that was to be expected, and I wasn't expecting the seventeen point lead but she's definitely telling them like pick at the up, or you're coming out or calling time out, like we can't. We can't keep doing that and expect to win a championship, right because we're playing a really good team.

You keep mentioning that the series has shifts that will make a big difference. We're going to be in Minneapolis at the Target Center for games three and four. What's the biggest difference you see with the Links now? Getting to play on home court?

You keep mentioning that the series has shifts that will make a big difference. We're going to be in Minneapolis at the Target Center for games three and four. What's the biggest difference you see with the Links now? Getting to play on home court?

I mean, getting that home court advantage, in the crowd behind you, sleeping in your own bed, all the things we know about the comforts of being home that offers you that the crowd is behind you, do you have a little more swag in your step when you're in your own space? Like these are two of the best fan bases in the league, hands down, Target Center is an amazing.