Sorry, dudes, Richard can't find his air horny food court food Court, food Court with St Blaze argue in the food court court with Blase Cross food Food. Welcome to the food court of production of My Heart Radio. I am Richard Blaze and I am the host and judge of the food court. You bring me your food arguments and I settle them once and for all. Joining us in the court today, we have two amazing guests that I'm so excited to have them here today with this. One is a chef of New York City who I've known for a long time, someone who guess well Crystal wrote this in but potentially loves molecular astronomy, maybe even more than me. It's Wiley Defraid. Hello, Hello, Hello, thanks for having me and my molecular astronomy self. Yeah, I was gonna say. Question. Question is like, we don't even like saying that word, do we. Let's be honest, it's written in the script. Even those who dabble in it and dabble in the dark arts don't really like the call. In a pool of liquid nitrogen as we speak, I'm just one leg in right now. If we were in studio together, the loser would be dropped into a vat of liquid nit. That would be like the you know, like the dunk tank. Well no, I mean my understanding is is the only two sole pratitions practitioners of the moleculeaguers tell me left on the planet. We're not allowed to be in the same room in case there's an accident or something. You know, we have to keep it, we have to keep the dream alive. That's why we are across the world from each other right now. One of my personal heroes. That will not that will not affect how this gets judged, because going up against Wiley today is someone and he's argued with before. By today we're actually gonna record it. Writer, producer extraordinary, you know, you know him behind podcasts like Recipe Club and The Dave Chang Show. It's Chris Yang Mayo. Merrow merrow there. Yeah, no, you've got seven. You've got seven little bursts from the air horn. Chris, thanks so much for hanging out with us. I know you're just super super busy. You just moved. You got so much going on, you know, It's true, And I'm I love molecular astronomy as well. I love deconstructing things. This is great, this is fantastic. I'm a huge, huge, huge practitioner of the molecular gastronomic arts. Oh man, we we can cut all of this, guys, and I can't wait to hear what the two of you have to say. This one is gonna be a burner for sure. WHILEY never want to conform to the crowd, has come into the food court today with I think the hottest, boldest take that has been on this show and forty something episodes. But before we get to that, let's chat a little bit. Wiley. Listen, you just got back from Iceland. Top three fines in Iceland, a place I've never visited but always have wanted to go. Oh, I mean, and not not in order of preference, but I'd say Lamb hot Dog, super delicious. They have that great hot dog in Iceland, Lamb Lamb with everything. It's great. It's really good. There's a complete lack of hot sauce, so it's quite tasty. Geo thermal bath that's pretty fun. I did a did a geo thermal bath that's pretty awesome. And I mean the landscape is crazy that I went to two different waterfalls that were just like like mind blown, mind blown. So cool. Are there topless photos of you under a waterfall in Iceland somewhere? No, these are not. These are like Niagara falls type falls. Not you don't like like dunking your head under the falls. This is like it's pretty spectacular, all right. I like the geo thermal I just got back. I did that. We did the family trip to yellow Stone, so the geo thermal stuff is absolutely insane. You know. You know, fun fact, the word geyser comes from Iceland because the very there's a there's a geyser in the Guyser's name is geyser, and all guys are's the world over are called guysers because of this, because the town of Geyser guys here. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that was cool to learn. Have you been to Yellowstone? Have you seen Old Faithful? I have? That's awesome, very cool. Did did you get the sense that my family is gonna be so upset with me? But like, wasn't it a little bit a little bit too much hype for Old Faithful? Don't you think? I Mean, it's just kind of cool that, like, you know, the earth that you know the fact that there's like hot magma that's touching water and it's getting I mean, I think the process is cool. I thought it was pretty neat. But what I'm actual like what well? Yeah, So, like Richard, are you saying like the actual site of some water coming out of a hole was less than you expected it to be. I think, in all fairness, Chris, thank you for sending me down this road. But I've been in Yellow. We've been there for a couple of days, so we've done so many geothermal things and and just like the hype you get to, you get too old faithful, and it's it's gonna go off, and you know one oh nine between No. Nine and one twelve, and there's hundreds of people. Was fourth of July week. It was. It was just massive. And then I just think, like our our culture right now that moves so fast and scrolls so fast through everything, and then it's like, ah, some water shoots in the air and you're like a couple hundred years ago, I bet that this was the most fantastic thing. It's cool. I mean, it's better than whale watching. I will say that, like when the whale is like four or five six feet away and you see a little and you're like, like, I couldn't see anything little like when you're up against the whale, like you're petting orco. Okay, that's amazing. But like I think that, I think I go with guys are over the whale, that can be here next food court. Guys res versus whales. I've done. I've done both. I'd say, well watching even with this, even with the social distance from not interrupting the whales natural movements, which I support just the subtle did they support that live and let live? That's how I feel. Well. We'll get into that in a little bit too, with regards to spicy plants. But listen, we're gonna keep going sideways here. But you know what I did see at Old Faithful, and I recorded this. I'll send you, not that you guys want this, but if anyone who's listening once here. The coolest thing I saw Old Faithful was a raven. By the way, these ravens that are in yellow Stone, and they're like, it's not like a crow, it's like a it's like a These are giant birds. And I saw a raven grab a piece of pirates booty from a tourist and then bury it under the ground for later use. No joke. Is that the most a raven, which they're known to be super super smart, buried a piece of pirate's booty for later in the day. That's that's amazing. They're smart because pirate booty is delicious. Yeah you you, I don't know. You might think it's burying it for later. Maybe it's just saving that tourists from having to eat more pirates. Fair enough, you understand how hard it is to make pirates booty? No, I don't. It can't. Possibly it's not worth the effort. Why would it hard to make that? It's delicious, light and air cheesy, perfect Wiley walk us through the wicky. No how and how to make a pirate's booty? Just just generally though, because now I'm curious. There's some i mean puff snacks. It's probably some sort of extruded thing, a high pressure extrusion causes it to expand a couple of different starches, and you know it's it's that stuff's great. That's so cool and hard, not that hot. What do you mean It's not like a pirate is like taking a straw and inflating each little piece of booty like that, there's no real there's no pirates involved, Chris. I hate to burst your bubble that there's no pirates making this. It's I'm coming up with the technology to extrude and then puff. I agree, was difficult flipping on the switch each morning to produce sixty five million pounds of pirate's booty. Not that hard. I'm not into Pirate's booty because it's like an artisanal craft as you are. Well, okay, apparently we've touched a nerve. I'm sorry. I certainly know what I'm getting. My grandfather is laid off from the Pirate's booty factory. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, Yeah, your Christmas present is already wrapped. I got it. It's just so you know. Trader Joe's has a catchway Pepe snack, the original. He's the original virus. Hey, what's that? What's uh? What's what's Peppe? He's he's a pirate Pepe. I believe is is a little pepper, A little a little spice makes that better. Mhm. Listen, Chris, I know you're busy with so many things, and obviously you have so many strong food opinions. What is one of your top ten controversial hot takes? Who would have thought a little a little black pepper might make food taste better? Anyway? A controversial it would take. People were pissed at me when I said that. I think the idea that fruit and cheese are some sort of natural bedfellows is insane to me. I don't And people like wooda bout cheddar and apples? What about it? It's disgusting. I think fruit and cheese is gross that but it's not a savory sweet thing. It's specific to fruit and cheese. Got it? No, I like savory sweet. I just think fruit and cheese. What are you looking at me? You like you like cheddar and apples? Duchy Wiley? What's this look you're giving me? Come on, manchego and Quinn's past d again. People just come back at me saying the names of fruits and cheese together. That's there's not they're not good, membrio and and and manchego whatever, it's what that's it's not good. And watermelon Feta and watermelon is the biggest biggest colfort I want. I'm talking about textually horrible just it's just like so unpleasant to eat that. What do you think fetta watermelon salads? Well know you should be go cheese. Of course. I would actually prefer a goat cheese version to a fetta version. There's something about that that. Come on, fly back to the eighties with me. Raspberry vinaigrette and goat cheese on a spinach salad. Come on, Chris, I missed. I missed the aspberry, like the the artificial raspberry thing. Though this raspberry viniagrette raspberry iced tea was big. But this was before all of our time, I think. But Dave ros the raspberry viniagrette thing, that's I mean, that was a big Yeah, that's like that's new Veldon. Yeah, that was a modern moment at some point that was like, whoa, that's a flogged row with raspberry stashio crusted goat cheese balls. Yes, is watermelon? Is watermelon the pirate's booty of the fruit world? Chris, No, it's delicious. I love a watermelon. I do too. I just crushed something that wasn't even that good and it was still that delicious, just when it's hot and it's just drippy and I know, so hey, let me ask you both the question I've always wondered, I have too smart food? People here plugging a watermelon? Do you know like plugging When people say, like I plug a watermelon, are they just cutting out a little section and checking the inside? Is that the whole idea? I mean, not to infuse with like bottle of acca. We're not talking about that, just like plugging it like you were just talking about, like people talking about like plugging to find the right watermelon. I'm almost like like sushi grade tuna. Yeah wow, But then like doesn't that watermelon just go bad once it's been plugged? I guess nobody knows what the answer to this. I don't think that you're meant to be walking through, you know, down the aisle with your little tool and like just at the Albertson's taking a chunk out of each taking a core sample out of each watermelon, and then deciding which one is right. I know That's what security said to me yesterday too. Yeah. I think you're better off whacking the candle opes and just listening, you know. But but I like the idea of sort of grading fruit like like sashimi. Like I think there's something there though, right, Like what if I what if I plug it and I'm selling them immediately. I'm like, Okay, this is a great triple a watermelon. Who wants it? Right? Here's a B minus watermelon. This is the blue fin of the watermelon world right here. Yeah, this one would be good with cheese. You just take a big plug out him and fill it with fetish. Man, it's we're having too much fun already, but it's time to get down to business. Whiley tell the court the case that you brought in today. We are here to discuss the merits or the lack there of, of hot spicy food. I think hot spicy food has no place. Wow. Wow, that is I mean you came in like talk about the alternative take here, You've got a lot of convincing spicy food has no place, no, Chris, I'm I'm assuming, well, I know that you feel differently. Well, earlier you described this as one of the hottest, boldest takes ever on the podcast. I would I would argue this is maybe the mildest timidust take ever ever taken on food. Just like spicy food has no place this Like, I feel like this is diabolical on Wiley's part because like it's it's like having to argue against math like he's he's sitting here being like, my my take on math is one plus one is seven, and I have to somehow argue with this maniac. It's it's it is an opinion, for sure, Wiley, and I don't usually as a judge. I want I'm gonna turn off my own personal opinions. You know that this is all about the debate. But I will say you you you're you're coming with one that's gonna be This is gonna be tough to convince me everyone who's listening. I mean, I was gonna say, you know, it sounds like you're like if you have to pick like your like Maine, it's like arguing for the Benett Main mayonnaise. But I know that you love mayonnaise. I know that's one of your favorite condiments. It's fine, and you never add seraci in your manners. No, no, I don't know, because I would prefer to taste the mannaise. I mean, where do we begin. I'm sorry, but no, I don't like things overwhelmingly hot. I find the whole thing to be absurd. Okay, we're gonna get into that. You're gonna get into that, Wiley, So hold hold off your argument there, but before we get into it, just like most courtrooms, in order to decide who presents their case first, we have a trivia round. So, because you're both recording remotely, so you're gonna have to come up with your own sound effects so that the viewers know who's chiming in. So, Chris, what do you what is your sound effect going to be with a trivial round? Well, I like it like the old school, with a little bit of a negative tinge to the sound. Right, It's just the sound of me throwing up a little that's the best way to describe that. The electric reverb. It's the old school buzzer. And for Chris Yang and No, I don't want that. It's it's too associated with a negative thing. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna do like a bird sound. I'm just gonna be like a happy bird. That is a happy and you're not gonna believe it. You're the second person to do the kaka recently on the show, and I respect it. I respect it. Have it just to just to try and keep the street going on, Wiley, what is your sound effect going to be the audio media fash. You can't you can't blink three lights at me. Okay, you've been in iceland for too long. Well, I'm gonna borrow something from Chris. Maybe I'll just say math. I like it. There it is. Oh my god, that's so that it hurts so bad. It's a monotone math Matt versus a coca. All right, here we go. The winner of the trivia round is going to get to decide whether they present their case first or second. Here we go. Question one? In what movie did two not so bright guys Harry and Lloyd dare each other to eat at an atomic That is gonna be Chris, that's gonna be dumb and dumber. Wow, Chris did not even wait for the question to be finished, and he is correct. It's dumb and dumber. Jim Carrey, Jeff Daniels, The Classic, The Classic? Whiley would you have got that one? If I finished? Probably not? Probably not. I did not see that film. I was doing more of Adam Sandler. What did they dare? What do they dare themselves? So they dare each other to eat something spicy? I forget what it was? And atomic pepper? It was an atomic traffic which wears the atomic pepper on the Schollville scale. Producer Christal, We gotta find that out, even though it's a it's a fictitious pepper, I believe, but we'll figure it out. Okay, here we're question too with Chris up Zo. When you have a stomach bug, what's the name of the diet recommended that's so bland your upset stomach can handle it? It's Christine again, that's the Brat diet. It is. It is the Brat diet. Chris Yang just absolutely dominating the trivia around here. Bananas, rice, apples, sauce and dry toast. Is that right? Not only is it right, but you get extra credit for explaining the acronym right there, Banana rise, apple, sauce, and toast. Chris, how do you know that? Listen, guys, this guy gets a lot of stomach ache. Scoming for a man who's got a lot of gastro intestinal issues. But I would like to explain that since I don't eat spicy food, I'm unfamiliar with said diet because my gastro intestinal flora is from spicy food. Man, it is pushing the limits of lactose it's trying to overcome my intolerance for lactose products. I'm trying to become a better person, more tolerant. I love it. Now listen, Wiley. That means you're down to zero with only one question remaining. But the good thing is in my court. I get to decide how many points question three is worth, and it's worth seven points question three. Surprise, it's worth seven points Wiley. That means, if you get this one right, you still win the round. Here we go Question three with Christian up to zero. What dishes commonly recognized as the spiciest dish in the world. Diners are often asked to sign a release before eating it. Hint, it's got ten different types of peppers, including the world's hottest pepper that I cannot pronounce. On the script the boots Joel Joel, Lokia, Jeel, Lochia. We're gonna have to say, we're gonna have the v O that one? About this? How about this one? The genre the genre of cuisine that does this dish. We're talking about what type of food commonly known as the spiciest food in the world. I believe that would be molecular? Is it is it friede mayonnaise. Take a guess while get in there. I want to hear your actual want to hear your buzzer sound Matt, yes, Wiley, Take a stab Ti cuisine. The answer is Indian fall fall f pH A. A l Indian fall contains ten different types of peppers. But what is the other? There's a what's the more common Indian spicy dish where usually the cook will wear a gas mask? You guys help me out with this one. It's I don't know. I thought maybe I don't. I don't know. That sounds unpleasant. But have you guys never seen this is like it's very you know, like I've never seen so spicy that the cook wears a gas mask so that they don't inhale all of the fumes. Great idea, All right, well question three? No one answered Darwin Darwinism at its finest go and answers questions three, which means that not by default by the merit of going to zero Christian you win the trivia around, which means you get to make the biggest decision of the day, whether or not you want to present your argument first or second. Oh no, I defer, I defer. I want to hear what I want to hear what this gentleman has to say about spicy food. All right, Chris Young, using baseball philosophy, wants to be the home team and bat second. That means Wiley is going to be up first, discussing and debating why spicy food is not good. We'll be back right after this break, and we are back in the food court today to recap. We have the case of spicy food. Is it bad or is it good? Just keep it simple, Crystal. I like it the way this word that. Each of you will have three minutes to state your case. During the three minutes, you need to lay out your case and not focus on your opponent's case. You'll have a two minute rebuttal after the first round. Gentlemen, do we understand the rules of the food court? Understood? All right? Here we go. So Wiley, Chef Wiley, you are up first. You got three minutes to let us know why non spicy food. I was gonna say bland food, but I feel like that's sort of like why non spicy food. Nothing like an impartial judge. I am impartial, to be clear, I usually say this, but I will say one more time. I am I am basing the judgment on the debate, not my own personal feelings, to be clear, to set the record straight, to be just upfront. I did have a Popeye spicy chicken sandwich for lunch that one of our other guests brought in, but that is just my personal is not how I will judge the debate while defrain one of my heroes. Basically, it is unbelievable. You're up first, while you've got three minutes in your time starts now, I'd like to call for a move for a mistrial. I mean, where do I begin. Like, we're not even supposed to eat peppers, chilies, it's a it's a evolutionary adaptation. The whole point of spicy peppers was so that the plant could live in peace and that the predators would leave it alone. You're not even supposed to eat the thing. It's there, it's it's it's hot by design so that you won't touch it. It's an unpleasant experience. Message received, plants. I'm moving on to honeycomb, thank you very much. Delicious, absolute delicious. But like I mean, it's also like spicy food. Right. It started in in in North America and moved around the world five years ago or so. But you know, and and it's a vestige from the past. It's like an appendix. We don't need it anymore. I mean we it was there when we didn't have refrigeration. I understand people the appeal us. You know, food was spoiling and going bad and potentially even rotten. And and but we had to eat it. We have to consume our food. We have to make sure we can eat. So let's let's mask the bad parts. Let's let's soften the edges a little bit. But but we have refrigeration now. It's it's time to move on. There's it's that we don't need that anymore. I mean, if you want to smother your food in something, why don't you smother your food? And MSG, let's focus on delicious. Stop hiding the truth about the heat. You know, we don't. We don't with the heat. I mean we don't. We don't need it. Food is delicious. You don't have to hide it. And like this notion about oh, it's I love it, like it makes me start to sweat, and it's it's I love the endorphins, the endorphin rush. It's great. Let's see how hot we can go. Let's just keep pushing it. The more heat we go, the better. It's like I'm sweating and I'm and I'm I'm it's so much fun. I feel good. I mean, that's that's ridiculous. It makes you sweaty and uncomfortable, right, I mean it's like that's like, let's like people saying I love to do yoga. That's not fun either. No, no, I'm sorry, it's not true. It's not fun. It's I mean, you want to rush, you want to rush ride the cyclone. You know, I don't need I don't need flaming hot cheetos. Okay, that's that's how I feel about the endorphined part and all that. It's no, no, And then then you eat it and you know you don't feel good, like gastro intestinal stuff, upset stomach, you can get an ulcer from too much. Like it's it's, you know, countless visits to the bathroom after too much hot food. Everybody's like, oh, what happened? Well, I'm how you doing well? I had I had a lot of hot food last night. I'm spending the day, you know, in in the in the restroom. It's like, no, thanks, if I need a bathroom break, I'll have a latte. You know, that's that's a nice way to get to the rest room. I think, you know it's a perfectly good good way. But but you know, you had too much hot food. You had too much hot food. No big deal. Just have some milk, because nothing's better than a with a bunch of tacos and some milk, right Like, that's that's a great, that's a great, That's that's delicious. That's what I want. I want. I want to wash it all down and like your taste buds get all blown out, Like you have a bunch of hot food and you're in like this crazy zone where if you're still conscious, you're not enjoying yourself. You can't taste anything else for the next several minutes, like or longer. It's there's no there's no joy. I want to taste the food. I want people make delicious food and I want to taste it. I want to enjoy it. I don't want to have this sensation where just you're nothing. It's there's nothing like no, I'm sorry, it's very hot, it's unpleasant, and just this like and there's all this sort of like weird shaming associated like, oh, you don't like hot food. Oh, that's like I'm supposed to be embarrassed or ashamed of the fact that I that I like hot don't like hot food. I like to taste my food. I like to taste things. Here's a fun fact trivia fact. Okay, the country with the least spiciest food in the world happens to be math. I'll give you the answer. It's Denmark. Denmark has the least spiciest food in the world, and the country with the best restaurant in the world also from Marked. Do you think that that's a coincidence. I don't think so. I think it's science. I'm done, Wiley, do frame with an impassioned first three minutes plus evolutionary? Like really like like it's it's a plant's defense system. Are we supposed to be eating it at all? Do you want to be in the bathroom all day? Do you enjoy yoga? So many questions that while he threw out there three minutes, Chris, now you get to let us know why spicy food rules. Your three minutes starts now, all right, I am not here to defend spiciness as sport. I think that Wiley and I are probably on the same page. That I'm not out there buying whatever asked blaster sauce. That's going to just like ruin my life and my butt hole forever. I think that that is a different thing. I'm not here to defend the extremists in my camp. I'm here to just to say that I think spicy food is remarkable as when in balance, and I think in appreciation of spicy food not like a crazy devotion to it as a singular thing, but an appreciation of spice and spicy food is a sign of open mindedness, a mature palette, adventurousness, and um just overall decency as a human being. Chili peppers are the most used spice and condiment in the world. They have an essential to the world economy and trade. Empires have been built on this notion of spice. Our ability to taste spiciness as humans separates us from snails, frogs, and birds. These are the animals that can't taste spice. We are I mean, maybe some of us are are snails and frogs, but I am not a snail or a frog. I think that spiciness, whether or not you are perfect like whether or not you're chasing after extreme spiciness or not. Spiciness is a tool in in the in the arsenal of somebody making food. You have these, you have a very limited number, and we really think about there's a finite number of tastes and sensations that you can experience that you can bring to a diner. It's finite. And spice is a big one, especially what used in conjunction with sweetness or in with numbing with different temperature variations. Spice is just another tool in your in your toolbag. Why would you want to get rid of that? On a very basic scientific level, spiciness increases your saliva production and stimulates your appetite. It's actually good for your digestion to be eating spicy food. I think that spiciness generally in a meal is a side of sophistication. If you go to a tie banquet, you will see you, yes, you will have insanely fiery curries. But they are They're meant to be eaten a little bit with some some rice and then you take a cooling bite of an herb over here, and then you eat them a little bit of like a relish it's it's not it's I agree, it's too much to have spiciness when it's just everything is housed in it. But spice practice properly is a super sophisticated thing. I don't think you wear spiciness as a badge of honor or anything like that. But let's also think about Mapo tofu, one of my favorite dishes in the world, and one of these things that can get this reputation for being way too spicy, you know, just blow you out of the water. But when you're in Chengdu, when you're in Sish want eating this like balances everything with this dish, and I think that spice is essential to it. Wow, I almost want to say, I want to ask Chris, like, isn't it Isn't it true like scientifically that eating spicy food, especially in warmer climates can like help regulate your own body temperature to sort of get through harsh conditions because one of our things, one of the things that our bodies do to react to spiciness is it starts sweating from our foreheads in our chest and like sweat is there to cool you down. And I know my time is up here, but no, but I love the idea that it's a plant's defense, but it also regulates the human body, and maybe those two arguments sort of have equalled out right there. What a round? What a first round? I also love Listen. I don't think either of you really separating yourselves from the extremists. Wiley is not saying that non spicy food is bland, not at all. He's saying the country with the least amount of spicy food has arguably the best restaurants, right um, And and Chris saying no, he's not with the extremists that want to just go buy a can of as blaster, which I don't know if it's a real thing, but I just wanted to say it myself because it's fun to say. And I love economy, the world, global trade, coming into the equation. After one round, I'd like to see the I'd like to see those facts. I got some I got some facts of years to check to my friend. Okay, listen, this this court will, of course facts check all of the polls that have been used. This is a court with lots of integrity. While you may you may approach the bench, no, you can be heard. I just wanted to point out that spice is actually not one of the taste that Chris kept saying over and over again. It is not one of the taste. It is not bitter, sweet, salty, sour or mommy spice hot is not in there. That is incorrect. Anecdotally, this judge would like to take a moment to tell the court that, you know, a year ago or so, this job I had COVID. Guys, I had COVID a year ago, and I was one of these people that lost my sense of smell, and as a chef, it was super, super scary, and it was you know, for for like sixty days at least until it started to really start coming back. You know that what I did not lose my sense of taste, which we all know is barely separated from smell. They work so much together. But the only thing that I could really enjoy was super spicy foods. It was the i I'd have to get even for me, like extra spice, because it was the only thing that I could register as taste. It's anecdotal. It's not gonna make away into this judge totally seems like a fair fight. This totally seems unbiased and totally fair. This is I feel I feel great. I feel so good. It will this will be fair, and you know what, I love, Wiley. One of the from your first three minutes there the the I don't like spicy food shaming. I think that is an absolute great point. If you like certain foods, you like certain foods, if you don't like only one person on the planet is being shamed for not like spicy And it's not like he's like standing up for the community of people like this underserved community of people who don't like spicy food. It's just him. Well we'll see how many people comment on that, Chris. But here we go. Time for the two minute rebuttal. So, Wiley, you're gonna be up first year. Now you've got two minutes to let Chris know why spicy food is horrible, why it's just a horrible thing. And your two minutes starts. Now. I mean again, I I call into questions some of Chris's arguments. I don't know. I mean, yes, spice was the spice trade, the spice out, all of that. One of the earliest forms of cultural appropriation was bringing spices around the world. Perhaps, But again, I I just I think that there are very few people that that have this so called mastery of which Chris is referring to, and that the contrary is infinitely more more popular and and and pervasive. Is this this this idea of just like that slice of pizza that that we spent three years trying to figure out how to make for you, where's that jilly flegs? Like come on, like that's there's no, there's nothing there, like what stay home? I don't need you to come into the place like there's I just I don't. I think that it's the opposite. People are constantly trying to see how hard they can go. There's there's Yeah, there are a few people out there maybe that are just tweaking it and fine tuning it. And I did say that the cacho pepe puffs at Trader Joe's are delicious and there smartly balanced. But you know again, Italian food is is of all the countries that we're talking about here, Italy is not famous for its laying on of the hot spicy foods. You know, it's it's a judicious use of pepper that's softened by a ton of dairy. But you know, I just I find this this notion that that it that it it defines you and your credibility as a chef or somehow to to not only consume and eat a bunch of stuff, but like how hot can you make it? Mapo tofu is always excruciating. It's always excruciating, you know. I mean again, I've never been to China. I I so I I know not of what I speak, perhaps because I have not had had it done by the Mapo Tofu monk himself, and I look forward to trying it. But I just think that there's there's I disagree that it's that. There's what the use of spice is an effort to find balance, It's not, it's a it's an effort to shock and awe. All right. I like it the difference there between black pepper and chili peppers, right, like really saying that this is not out, you know, just just making things tasty using pepper like black pepper, but like the overuse perhaps of chilies, and that it doesn't have to define you. And also a great note there Wiley on and for someone who has competed, judged on so many TV shows or whatever, like it becomes a thing where a competitor on this on show is just like I have to have high spice, highest cidity. I have to blow out the judge's palette because I got fifteen other dishes that I have to stand out from. And sometimes if someone who's been in that, it's like, oh, I have to stand out from the peach drizzled with olive oil. Let me hit them with some spice and highest cidity. So good points taken in the rebuttal Chris, you got two minutes now to let while you know why he's absolutely wrong. I know you're going to enjoy it. Your two minutes starts now. I'm gonna I'm gonna be generous and spend a couple of seconds agreeing that anybody who challenges the credibility of a chef or whatever because they don't like a certain taste is crazy, Like Wiley, is proof that you have strong opinions and preferences and still be one of the great chefs in the world. I'll grant you that, but I'm going to reaput a bunch of stuff you it earlier. First, this idea that chilies don't want to be eaten because and that's why they're spicy. It's a protection for the plant being delicious has created has spread chilies all over the world. Being delicious is what has ensured their survival and spread to the entire planet. That is why they were spread, and animals did spread them. By the way, birds are responsible for spreading most chilies. Second, you know, you talk about it being a vestige of the old world five years ago, how we ate blah blah blah, we have refrigeration. Now I look at it this way. I think it's a connection to the pre Columbian America's because the four species of chili we eat today, all chilies are derived from the same four species. Those are the four species that Native Americans first cultivated, and we have not improved on what they did all those years ago. Next, you're saying, like, nobody likes to feel sweaty and these endorphins and it's gross and you feel yucky. Almost everything in life that makes you sweat is good. Exercise good, being uncomfortable, nervous in a situation good for you, sex, good for you. All of these things are good things for eating spicy food food good. You know, whiley said tacos with milk is a bad, bad idea, that's disgusting. Tacos without spice also not good, Like you can't eat them without without spiciness, you can get an ulcer tummy, eg. From eating too much spice. You can die from eating too much of anything. That's not a defining characteristic of chili peppers. And then you wanted to cite the great Noma and Renee rad Zeppi and Danish food as a an example of where great food thrives without chili peppers. Wiley, If you go to Noma today and you walk through the greenhouse, what is Renee ra Zeppe growing in his greenhouse a bunch of chili peppers that he brought back from Mexico, Because that dude loves spice. So if the greatest chef of the greatest restaurant is cooking with chilis, I don't know that seems like an argument on my side more than yours. Wow. Well, the only thing that this judge will have to make a note is you know, we're talking about the greatest cheft of his time, and to me, that's Wiley. So, I mean, I love Renee, but I mean I'm just gonna get I mean again, it's not gonna factor into my judgment. But when we're talking greatest. We're getting into goats. It's true, It's true. That's wild defra Okay, you guys have given me a ton to think about. I'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, We are back, and I have made up my mind, I think. But before I give my final verdict, do either of you have a final word you'd like to say to the court. This is your last chance to further convince me or change my mind again. You know, I feel like we had a pretty good run at w D fifty over thirteen years, and there was very little use of spice. It was. There were a lot of things. People criticized us for a lot, a lot, and at no point did anyone say I wish the food was spice here, my drop. I agree with Wiley that the sort of unjudicious just random housing with chili flakes, housing with hot sauce onto anything you're eating. How spicy can we make it? Is not a good practice. But the argument was spicy food has no place, which I feel like has not been proven here today. There's you haven't even gotten close to the idea that spicy food has no place. I mean, w D fifty had a beautiful and important run with very little spice. Mexican food has had a longer run with a lot of spice. Mexico had a better lease. It's true, it's true, and so far hasn't you know. Alright, an epic battle here, and I think that this court has made up its mind. It's a tough one, and I'll be honest, the verdict is gonna come down here. It's it's, it's it's it's gonna get pretty technical here. Some of the great arguments that were made during the debate, the evolutionary side of it, that plants were protect themselves to not eat it, and then Christian with a great response that it propagated plant life because by being so delicious that it's spread and that's how you get more chilies. You know, maybe it's not spice. Maybe it's msg as Wiley said that that's the thing that truly makes food delicious is spice, even a flavor. Can you blow out someone's palid and just destroy the flavor of everything with spice? You can? This one really, really, this one was tough. Comes down to I think the technicality here, the technicality here, and the technicality is that spice has no place. This court disagrees, this court favors spicy food. Well not not the extremists. This this, this podcast will not be sponsored by Asked Blaster three thousand anytime soon, nor will we be having some sort of really spicy cook off for game to play on the podcast to see if anyone can eat the one chip challenge or whatever it is. But I do think that there's there's some merit for some spice. Wiley, They're right, though, it's it. It has to be in the hands of a master. I'm certainly not that person. It's okay, you know, I understand. You know. For the record, I am still a big fan of Professor Yang, and I am honored to have had a dialogue with him about the subject. Yeah, And I mean we've been Wiley and I we had this conversation, this argument off the air many times, and and I actually I do I will say this, I do disagree with Wiley fundamentally on spicy food. But more than more than that disagreement, I appreciate that Wiley exists and Wiley has his opinion and like will not be shamed out of it, will not bow to the extremists. Wiley you're you're, you're, you're perhaps defeated but undeterred. Yeah, well, I mean story that's gonna say that, I'm my gravestone. Thank you very much. That's that's that's okay. But I do think listen, I mean, the chemistry amongst the both of you was pretty amazing. Like, thank you everyone for listening to Food Court. I'm Richard Blaze. For more Wiley, you can find him on Instagram at Wiley do Frame and pick up his cookbook w D fifty the Cookbook for his recipes. I'm holding onto a signed copy. There's only two copies left, so grandam while you can, oh go get him, go get the reprints coming soon, I hope. And for more Chris, you can catch him on The Recipe Club and the Dave Chang Show podcast where they're just crushing it and he's written books like Ivan Romen, The Mission, Chinese Food Cookbook and You and I Eat the Same sending what do you think? I know half of you think that I got this wrong. Maybe well maybe in this case, I think that I got this wrong. But if you're dying to share your opinion, don't hold back. Let me know on Twitter and Instagram. At Richard Blazer on the TikTok at Richard Blaze Official and find the show on Instagram at food Court Pod to let us know, food Court is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Richard Blaze. My producer is Crystal Bomahi Food Corp. Was created by Christopher hasciyotas the rest of my food Court clerks or Jonathan Dressler, David Wasserman, and Jasmine Blaze. Our theme song is by Jason NI Smith. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Awesome, Enjoy the rest of you day. Guys, Bass super fun. Thanks Chris, you're the best.

Sorry, dudes, Richard can't find his air horny food court food Court, food Court with St Blaze argue in the food court court with Blase Cross food Food. Welcome to the food court of production of My Heart Radio. I am Richard Blaze and I am the host and judge of the food court. You bring me your food arguments and I settle them once and for all. Joining us in the court today, we have two amazing guests that I'm so excited to have them here today with this. One is a chef of New York City who I've known for a long time, someone who guess well Crystal wrote this in but potentially loves molecular astronomy, maybe even more than me. It's Wiley Defraid. Hello, Hello, Hello, thanks for having me and my molecular astronomy self. Yeah, I was gonna say. Question. Question is like, we don't even like saying that word, do we. Let's be honest, it's written in the script. Even those who dabble in it and dabble in the dark arts don't really like the call. In a pool of liquid nitrogen as we speak, I'm just one leg in right now. If we were in studio together, the loser would be dropped into a vat of liquid nit. That would be like the you know, like the dunk tank. Well no, I mean my understanding is is the only two sole pratitions practitioners of the moleculeaguers tell me left on the planet. We're not allowed to be in the same room in case there's an accident or something. You know, we have to keep it, we have to keep the dream alive. That's why we are across the world from each other right now. One of my personal heroes. That will not that will not affect how this gets judged, because going up against Wiley today is someone and he's argued with before. By today we're actually gonna record it. Writer, producer extraordinary, you know, you know him behind podcasts like Recipe Club and The Dave Chang Show. It's Chris Yang Mayo. Merrow merrow there. Yeah, no, you've got seven. You've got seven little bursts from the air horn. Chris, thanks so much for hanging out with us. I know you're just super super busy. You just moved. You got so much going on, you know, It's true, And I'm I love molecular astronomy as well. I love deconstructing things. This is great, this is fantastic. I'm a huge, huge, huge practitioner of the molecular gastronomic arts. Oh man, we we can cut all of this, guys, and I can't wait to hear what the two of you have to say. This one is gonna be a burner for sure. WHILEY never want to conform to the crowd, has come into the food court today with I think the hottest, boldest take that has been on this show and forty something episodes. But before we get to that, let's chat a little bit. Wiley. Listen, you just got back from Iceland. Top three fines in Iceland, a place I've never visited but always have wanted to go. Oh, I mean, and not not in order of preference, but I'd say Lamb hot Dog, super delicious. They have that great hot dog in Iceland, Lamb Lamb with everything. It's great. It's really good. There's a complete lack of hot sauce, so it's quite tasty. Geo thermal bath that's pretty fun. I did a did a geo thermal bath that's pretty awesome. And I mean the landscape is crazy that I went to two different waterfalls that were just like like mind blown, mind blown. So cool. Are there topless photos of you under a waterfall in Iceland somewhere? No, these are not. These are like Niagara falls type falls. Not you don't like like dunking your head under the falls. This is like it's pretty spectacular, all right. I like the geo thermal I just got back. I did that. We did the family trip to yellow Stone, so the geo thermal stuff is absolutely insane. You know. You know, fun fact, the word geyser comes from Iceland because the very there's a there's a geyser in the Guyser's name is geyser, and all guys are's the world over are called guysers because of this, because the town of Geyser guys here. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that was cool to learn. Have you been to Yellowstone? Have you seen Old Faithful? I have? That's awesome, very cool. Did did you get the sense that my family is gonna be so upset with me? But like, wasn't it a little bit a little bit too much hype for Old Faithful? Don't you think? I Mean, it's just kind of cool that, like, you know, the earth that you know the fact that there's like hot magma that's touching water and it's getting I mean, I think the process is cool. I thought it was pretty neat. But what I'm actual like what well? Yeah, So, like Richard, are you saying like the actual site of some water coming out of a hole was less than you expected it to be. I think, in all fairness, Chris, thank you for sending me down this road. But I've been in Yellow. We've been there for a couple of days, so we've done so many geothermal things and and just like the hype you get to, you get too old faithful, and it's it's gonna go off, and you know one oh nine between No. Nine and one twelve, and there's hundreds of people. Was fourth of July week. It was. It was just massive. And then I just think, like our our culture right now that moves so fast and scrolls so fast through everything, and then it's like, ah, some water shoots in the air and you're like a couple hundred years ago, I bet that this was the most fantastic thing. It's cool. I mean, it's better than whale watching. I will say that, like when the whale is like four or five six feet away and you see a little and you're like, like, I couldn't see anything little like when you're up against the whale, like you're petting orco. Okay, that's amazing. But like I think that, I think I go with guys are over the whale, that can be here next food court. Guys res versus whales. I've done. I've done both. I'd say, well watching even with this, even with the social distance from not interrupting the whales natural movements, which I support just the subtle did they support that live and let live? That's how I feel. Well. We'll get into that in a little bit too, with regards to spicy plants. But listen, we're gonna keep going sideways here. But you know what I did see at Old Faithful, and I recorded this. I'll send you, not that you guys want this, but if anyone who's listening once here. The coolest thing I saw Old Faithful was a raven. By the way, these ravens that are in yellow Stone, and they're like, it's not like a crow, it's like a it's like a These are giant birds. And I saw a raven grab a piece of pirates booty from a tourist and then bury it under the ground for later use. No joke. Is that the most a raven, which they're known to be super super smart, buried a piece of pirate's booty for later in the day. That's that's amazing. They're smart because pirate booty is delicious. Yeah you you, I don't know. You might think it's burying it for later. Maybe it's just saving that tourists from having to eat more pirates. Fair enough, you understand how hard it is to make pirates booty? No, I don't. It can't. Possibly it's not worth the effort. Why would it hard to make that? It's delicious, light and air cheesy, perfect Wiley walk us through the wicky. No how and how to make a pirate's booty? Just just generally though, because now I'm curious. There's some i mean puff snacks. It's probably some sort of extruded thing, a high pressure extrusion causes it to expand a couple of different starches, and you know it's it's that stuff's great. That's so cool and hard, not that hot. What do you mean It's not like a pirate is like taking a straw and inflating each little piece of booty like that, there's no real there's no pirates involved, Chris. I hate to burst your bubble that there's no pirates making this. It's I'm coming up with the technology to extrude and then puff. I agree, was difficult flipping on the switch each morning to produce sixty five million pounds of pirate's booty. Not that hard. I'm not into Pirate's booty because it's like an artisanal craft as you are. Well, okay, apparently we've touched a nerve. I'm sorry. I certainly know what I'm getting. My grandfather is laid off from the Pirate's booty factory. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, Yeah, your Christmas present is already wrapped. I got it. It's just so you know. Trader Joe's has a catchway Pepe snack, the original. He's the original virus. Hey, what's that? What's uh? What's what's Peppe? He's he's a pirate Pepe. I believe is is a little pepper, A little a little spice makes that better. Mhm. Listen, Chris, I know you're busy with so many things, and obviously you have so many strong food opinions. What is one of your top ten controversial hot takes? Who would have thought a little a little black pepper might make food taste better? Anyway? A controversial it would take. People were pissed at me when I said that. I think the idea that fruit and cheese are some sort of natural bedfellows is insane to me. I don't And people like wooda bout cheddar and apples? What about it? It's disgusting. I think fruit and cheese is gross that but it's not a savory sweet thing. It's specific to fruit and cheese. Got it? No, I like savory sweet. I just think fruit and cheese. What are you looking at me? You like you like cheddar and apples? Duchy Wiley? What's this look you're giving me? Come on, manchego and Quinn's past d again. People just come back at me saying the names of fruits and cheese together. That's there's not they're not good, membrio and and and manchego whatever, it's what that's it's not good. And watermelon Feta and watermelon is the biggest biggest colfort I want. I'm talking about textually horrible just it's just like so unpleasant to eat that. What do you think fetta watermelon salads? Well know you should be go cheese. Of course. I would actually prefer a goat cheese version to a fetta version. There's something about that that. Come on, fly back to the eighties with me. Raspberry vinaigrette and goat cheese on a spinach salad. Come on, Chris, I missed. I missed the aspberry, like the the artificial raspberry thing. Though this raspberry viniagrette raspberry iced tea was big. But this was before all of our time, I think. But Dave ros the raspberry viniagrette thing, that's I mean, that was a big Yeah, that's like that's new Veldon. Yeah, that was a modern moment at some point that was like, whoa, that's a flogged row with raspberry stashio crusted goat cheese balls. Yes, is watermelon? Is watermelon the pirate's booty of the fruit world? Chris, No, it's delicious. I love a watermelon. I do too. I just crushed something that wasn't even that good and it was still that delicious, just when it's hot and it's just drippy and I know, so hey, let me ask you both the question I've always wondered, I have too smart food? People here plugging a watermelon? Do you know like plugging When people say, like I plug a watermelon, are they just cutting out a little section and checking the inside? Is that the whole idea? I mean, not to infuse with like bottle of acca. We're not talking about that, just like plugging it like you were just talking about, like people talking about like plugging to find the right watermelon. I'm almost like like sushi grade tuna. Yeah wow, But then like doesn't that watermelon just go bad once it's been plugged? I guess nobody knows what the answer to this. I don't think that you're meant to be walking through, you know, down the aisle with your little tool and like just at the Albertson's taking a chunk out of each taking a core sample out of each watermelon, and then deciding which one is right. I know That's what security said to me yesterday too. Yeah. I think you're better off whacking the candle opes and just listening, you know. But but I like the idea of sort of grading fruit like like sashimi. Like I think there's something there though, right, Like what if I what if I plug it and I'm selling them immediately. I'm like, Okay, this is a great triple a watermelon. Who wants it? Right? Here's a B minus watermelon. This is the blue fin of the watermelon world right here. Yeah, this one would be good with cheese. You just take a big plug out him and fill it with fetish. Man, it's we're having too much fun already, but it's time to get down to business. Whiley tell the court the case that you brought in today. We are here to discuss the merits or the lack there of, of hot spicy food. I think hot spicy food has no place. Wow. Wow, that is I mean you came in like talk about the alternative take here, You've got a lot of convincing spicy food has no place, no, Chris, I'm I'm assuming, well, I know that you feel differently. Well, earlier you described this as one of the hottest, boldest takes ever on the podcast. I would I would argue this is maybe the mildest timidust take ever ever taken on food. Just like spicy food has no place this Like, I feel like this is diabolical on Wiley's part because like it's it's like having to argue against math like he's he's sitting here being like, my my take on math is one plus one is seven, and I have to somehow argue with this maniac. It's it's it is an opinion, for sure, Wiley, and I don't usually as a judge. I want I'm gonna turn off my own personal opinions. You know that this is all about the debate. But I will say you you you're you're coming with one that's gonna be This is gonna be tough to convince me everyone who's listening. I mean, I was gonna say, you know, it sounds like you're like if you have to pick like your like Maine, it's like arguing for the Benett Main mayonnaise. But I know that you love mayonnaise. I know that's one of your favorite condiments. It's fine, and you never add seraci in your manners. No, no, I don't know, because I would prefer to taste the mannaise. I mean, where do we begin. I'm sorry, but no, I don't like things overwhelmingly hot. I find the whole thing to be absurd. Okay, we're gonna get into that. You're gonna get into that, Wiley, So hold hold off your argument there, but before we get into it, just like most courtrooms, in order to decide who presents their case first, we have a trivia round. So, because you're both recording remotely, so you're gonna have to come up with your own sound effects so that the viewers know who's chiming in. So, Chris, what do you what is your sound effect going to be with a trivial round? Well, I like it like the old school, with a little bit of a negative tinge to the sound. Right, It's just the sound of me throwing up a little that's the best way to describe that. The electric reverb. It's the old school buzzer. And for Chris Yang and No, I don't want that. It's it's too associated with a negative thing. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna do like a bird sound. I'm just gonna be like a happy bird. That is a happy and you're not gonna believe it. You're the second person to do the kaka recently on the show, and I respect it. I respect it. Have it just to just to try and keep the street going on, Wiley, what is your sound effect going to be the audio media fash. You can't you can't blink three lights at me. Okay, you've been in iceland for too long. Well, I'm gonna borrow something from Chris. Maybe I'll just say math. I like it. There it is. Oh my god, that's so that it hurts so bad. It's a monotone math Matt versus a coca. All right, here we go. The winner of the trivia round is going to get to decide whether they present their case first or second. Here we go. Question one? In what movie did two not so bright guys Harry and Lloyd dare each other to eat at an atomic That is gonna be Chris, that's gonna be dumb and dumber. Wow, Chris did not even wait for the question to be finished, and he is correct. It's dumb and dumber. Jim Carrey, Jeff Daniels, The Classic, The Classic? Whiley would you have got that one? If I finished? Probably not? Probably not. I did not see that film. I was doing more of Adam Sandler. What did they dare? What do they dare themselves? So they dare each other to eat something spicy? I forget what it was? And atomic pepper? It was an atomic traffic which wears the atomic pepper on the Schollville scale. Producer Christal, We gotta find that out, even though it's a it's a fictitious pepper, I believe, but we'll figure it out. Okay, here we're question too with Chris up Zo. When you have a stomach bug, what's the name of the diet recommended that's so bland your upset stomach can handle it? It's Christine again, that's the Brat diet. It is. It is the Brat diet. Chris Yang just absolutely dominating the trivia around here. Bananas, rice, apples, sauce and dry toast. Is that right? Not only is it right, but you get extra credit for explaining the acronym right there, Banana rise, apple, sauce, and toast. Chris, how do you know that? Listen, guys, this guy gets a lot of stomach ache. Scoming for a man who's got a lot of gastro intestinal issues. But I would like to explain that since I don't eat spicy food, I'm unfamiliar with said diet because my gastro intestinal flora is from spicy food. Man, it is pushing the limits of lactose it's trying to overcome my intolerance for lactose products. I'm trying to become a better person, more tolerant. I love it. Now listen, Wiley. That means you're down to zero with only one question remaining. But the good thing is in my court. I get to decide how many points question three is worth, and it's worth seven points question three. Surprise, it's worth seven points Wiley. That means, if you get this one right, you still win the round. Here we go Question three with Christian up to zero. What dishes commonly recognized as the spiciest dish in the world. Diners are often asked to sign a release before eating it. Hint, it's got ten different types of peppers, including the world's hottest pepper that I cannot pronounce. On the script the boots Joel Joel, Lokia, Jeel, Lochia. We're gonna have to say, we're gonna have the v O that one? About this? How about this one? The genre the genre of cuisine that does this dish. We're talking about what type of food commonly known as the spiciest food in the world. I believe that would be molecular? Is it is it friede mayonnaise. Take a guess while get in there. I want to hear your actual want to hear your buzzer sound Matt, yes, Wiley, Take a stab Ti cuisine. The answer is Indian fall fall f pH A. A l Indian fall contains ten different types of peppers. But what is the other? There's a what's the more common Indian spicy dish where usually the cook will wear a gas mask? You guys help me out with this one. It's I don't know. I thought maybe I don't. I don't know. That sounds unpleasant. But have you guys never seen this is like it's very you know, like I've never seen so spicy that the cook wears a gas mask so that they don't inhale all of the fumes. Great idea, All right, well question three? No one answered Darwin Darwinism at its finest go and answers questions three, which means that not by default by the merit of going to zero Christian you win the trivia around, which means you get to make the biggest decision of the day, whether or not you want to present your argument first or second. Oh no, I defer, I defer. I want to hear what I want to hear what this gentleman has to say about spicy food. All right, Chris Young, using baseball philosophy, wants to be the home team and bat second. That means Wiley is going to be up first, discussing and debating why spicy food is not good. We'll be back right after this break, and we are back in the food court today to recap. We have the case of spicy food. Is it bad or is it good? Just keep it simple, Crystal. I like it the way this word that. Each of you will have three minutes to state your case. During the three minutes, you need to lay out your case and not focus on your opponent's case. You'll have a two minute rebuttal after the first round. Gentlemen, do we understand the rules of the food court? Understood? All right? Here we go. So Wiley, Chef Wiley, you are up first. You got three minutes to let us know why non spicy food. I was gonna say bland food, but I feel like that's sort of like why non spicy food. Nothing like an impartial judge. I am impartial, to be clear, I usually say this, but I will say one more time. I am I am basing the judgment on the debate, not my own personal feelings, to be clear, to set the record straight, to be just upfront. I did have a Popeye spicy chicken sandwich for lunch that one of our other guests brought in, but that is just my personal is not how I will judge the debate while defrain one of my heroes. Basically, it is unbelievable. You're up first, while you've got three minutes in your time starts now, I'd like to call for a move for a mistrial. I mean, where do I begin. Like, we're not even supposed to eat peppers, chilies, it's a it's a evolutionary adaptation. The whole point of spicy peppers was so that the plant could live in peace and that the predators would leave it alone. You're not even supposed to eat the thing. It's there, it's it's it's hot by design so that you won't touch it. It's an unpleasant experience. Message received, plants. I'm moving on to honeycomb, thank you very much. Delicious, absolute delicious. But like I mean, it's also like spicy food. Right. It started in in in North America and moved around the world five years ago or so. But you know, and and it's a vestige from the past. It's like an appendix. We don't need it anymore. I mean we it was there when we didn't have refrigeration. I understand people the appeal us. You know, food was spoiling and going bad and potentially even rotten. And and but we had to eat it. We have to consume our food. We have to make sure we can eat. So let's let's mask the bad parts. Let's let's soften the edges a little bit. But but we have refrigeration now. It's it's time to move on. There's it's that we don't need that anymore. I mean, if you want to smother your food in something, why don't you smother your food? And MSG, let's focus on delicious. Stop hiding the truth about the heat. You know, we don't. We don't with the heat. I mean we don't. We don't need it. Food is delicious. You don't have to hide it. And like this notion about oh, it's I love it, like it makes me start to sweat, and it's it's I love the endorphins, the endorphin rush. It's great. Let's see how hot we can go. Let's just keep pushing it. The more heat we go, the better. It's like I'm sweating and I'm and I'm I'm it's so much fun. I feel good. I mean, that's that's ridiculous. It makes you sweaty and uncomfortable, right, I mean it's like that's like, let's like people saying I love to do yoga. That's not fun either. No, no, I'm sorry, it's not true. It's not fun. It's I mean, you want to rush, you want to rush ride the cyclone. You know, I don't need I don't need flaming hot cheetos. Okay, that's that's how I feel about the endorphined part and all that. It's no, no, And then then you eat it and you know you don't feel good, like gastro intestinal stuff, upset stomach, you can get an ulcer from too much. Like it's it's, you know, countless visits to the bathroom after too much hot food. Everybody's like, oh, what happened? Well, I'm how you doing well? I had I had a lot of hot food last night. I'm spending the day, you know, in in the in the restroom. It's like, no, thanks, if I need a bathroom break, I'll have a latte. You know, that's that's a nice way to get to the rest room. I think, you know it's a perfectly good good way. But but you know, you had too much hot food. You had too much hot food. No big deal. Just have some milk, because nothing's better than a with a bunch of tacos and some milk, right Like, that's that's a great, that's a great, That's that's delicious. That's what I want. I want. I want to wash it all down and like your taste buds get all blown out, Like you have a bunch of hot food and you're in like this crazy zone where if you're still conscious, you're not enjoying yourself. You can't taste anything else for the next several minutes, like or longer. It's there's no there's no joy. I want to taste the food. I want people make delicious food and I want to taste it. I want to enjoy it. I don't want to have this sensation where just you're nothing. It's there's nothing like no, I'm sorry, it's very hot, it's unpleasant, and just this like and there's all this sort of like weird shaming associated like, oh, you don't like hot food. Oh, that's like I'm supposed to be embarrassed or ashamed of the fact that I that I like hot don't like hot food. I like to taste my food. I like to taste things. Here's a fun fact trivia fact. Okay, the country with the least spiciest food in the world happens to be math. I'll give you the answer. It's Denmark. Denmark has the least spiciest food in the world, and the country with the best restaurant in the world also from Marked. Do you think that that's a coincidence. I don't think so. I think it's science. I'm done, Wiley, do frame with an impassioned first three minutes plus evolutionary? Like really like like it's it's a plant's defense system. Are we supposed to be eating it at all? Do you want to be in the bathroom all day? Do you enjoy yoga? So many questions that while he threw out there three minutes, Chris, now you get to let us know why spicy food rules. Your three minutes starts now, all right, I am not here to defend spiciness as sport. I think that Wiley and I are probably on the same page. That I'm not out there buying whatever asked blaster sauce. That's going to just like ruin my life and my butt hole forever. I think that that is a different thing. I'm not here to defend the extremists in my camp. I'm here to just to say that I think spicy food is remarkable as when in balance, and I think in appreciation of spicy food not like a crazy devotion to it as a singular thing, but an appreciation of spice and spicy food is a sign of open mindedness, a mature palette, adventurousness, and um just overall decency as a human being. Chili peppers are the most used spice and condiment in the world. They have an essential to the world economy and trade. Empires have been built on this notion of spice. Our ability to taste spiciness as humans separates us from snails, frogs, and birds. These are the animals that can't taste spice. We are I mean, maybe some of us are are snails and frogs, but I am not a snail or a frog. I think that spiciness, whether or not you are perfect like whether or not you're chasing after extreme spiciness or not. Spiciness is a tool in in the in the arsenal of somebody making food. You have these, you have a very limited number, and we really think about there's a finite number of tastes and sensations that you can experience that you can bring to a diner. It's finite. And spice is a big one, especially what used in conjunction with sweetness or in with numbing with different temperature variations. Spice is just another tool in your in your toolbag. Why would you want to get rid of that? On a very basic scientific level, spiciness increases your saliva production and stimulates your appetite. It's actually good for your digestion to be eating spicy food. I think that spiciness generally in a meal is a side of sophistication. If you go to a tie banquet, you will see you, yes, you will have insanely fiery curries. But they are They're meant to be eaten a little bit with some some rice and then you take a cooling bite of an herb over here, and then you eat them a little bit of like a relish it's it's not it's I agree, it's too much to have spiciness when it's just everything is housed in it. But spice practice properly is a super sophisticated thing. I don't think you wear spiciness as a badge of honor or anything like that. But let's also think about Mapo tofu, one of my favorite dishes in the world, and one of these things that can get this reputation for being way too spicy, you know, just blow you out of the water. But when you're in Chengdu, when you're in Sish want eating this like balances everything with this dish, and I think that spice is essential to it. Wow, I almost want to say, I want to ask Chris, like, isn't it Isn't it true like scientifically that eating spicy food, especially in warmer climates can like help regulate your own body temperature to sort of get through harsh conditions because one of our things, one of the things that our bodies do to react to spiciness is it starts sweating from our foreheads in our chest and like sweat is there to cool you down. And I know my time is up here, but no, but I love the idea that it's a plant's defense, but it also regulates the human body, and maybe those two arguments sort of have equalled out right there. What a round? What a first round? I also love Listen. I don't think either of you really separating yourselves from the extremists. Wiley is not saying that non spicy food is bland, not at all. He's saying the country with the least amount of spicy food has arguably the best restaurants, right um, And and Chris saying no, he's not with the extremists that want to just go buy a can of as blaster, which I don't know if it's a real thing, but I just wanted to say it myself because it's fun to say. And I love economy, the world, global trade, coming into the equation. After one round, I'd like to see the I'd like to see those facts. I got some I got some facts of years to check to my friend. Okay, listen, this this court will, of course facts check all of the polls that have been used. This is a court with lots of integrity. While you may you may approach the bench, no, you can be heard. I just wanted to point out that spice is actually not one of the taste that Chris kept saying over and over again. It is not one of the taste. It is not bitter, sweet, salty, sour or mommy spice hot is not in there. That is incorrect. Anecdotally, this judge would like to take a moment to tell the court that, you know, a year ago or so, this job I had COVID. Guys, I had COVID a year ago, and I was one of these people that lost my sense of smell, and as a chef, it was super, super scary, and it was you know, for for like sixty days at least until it started to really start coming back. You know that what I did not lose my sense of taste, which we all know is barely separated from smell. They work so much together. But the only thing that I could really enjoy was super spicy foods. It was the i I'd have to get even for me, like extra spice, because it was the only thing that I could register as taste. It's anecdotal. It's not gonna make away into this judge totally seems like a fair fight. This totally seems unbiased and totally fair. This is I feel I feel great. I feel so good. It will this will be fair, and you know what, I love, Wiley. One of the from your first three minutes there the the I don't like spicy food shaming. I think that is an absolute great point. If you like certain foods, you like certain foods, if you don't like only one person on the planet is being shamed for not like spicy And it's not like he's like standing up for the community of people like this underserved community of people who don't like spicy food. It's just him. Well we'll see how many people comment on that, Chris. But here we go. Time for the two minute rebuttal. So, Wiley, you're gonna be up first year. Now you've got two minutes to let Chris know why spicy food is horrible, why it's just a horrible thing. And your two minutes starts. Now. I mean again, I I call into questions some of Chris's arguments. I don't know. I mean, yes, spice was the spice trade, the spice out, all of that. One of the earliest forms of cultural appropriation was bringing spices around the world. Perhaps, But again, I I just I think that there are very few people that that have this so called mastery of which Chris is referring to, and that the contrary is infinitely more more popular and and and pervasive. Is this this this idea of just like that slice of pizza that that we spent three years trying to figure out how to make for you, where's that jilly flegs? Like come on, like that's there's no, there's nothing there, like what stay home? I don't need you to come into the place like there's I just I don't. I think that it's the opposite. People are constantly trying to see how hard they can go. There's there's Yeah, there are a few people out there maybe that are just tweaking it and fine tuning it. And I did say that the cacho pepe puffs at Trader Joe's are delicious and there smartly balanced. But you know again, Italian food is is of all the countries that we're talking about here, Italy is not famous for its laying on of the hot spicy foods. You know, it's it's a judicious use of pepper that's softened by a ton of dairy. But you know, I just I find this this notion that that it that it it defines you and your credibility as a chef or somehow to to not only consume and eat a bunch of stuff, but like how hot can you make it? Mapo tofu is always excruciating. It's always excruciating, you know. I mean again, I've never been to China. I I so I I know not of what I speak, perhaps because I have not had had it done by the Mapo Tofu monk himself, and I look forward to trying it. But I just think that there's there's I disagree that it's that. There's what the use of spice is an effort to find balance, It's not, it's a it's an effort to shock and awe. All right. I like it the difference there between black pepper and chili peppers, right, like really saying that this is not out, you know, just just making things tasty using pepper like black pepper, but like the overuse perhaps of chilies, and that it doesn't have to define you. And also a great note there Wiley on and for someone who has competed, judged on so many TV shows or whatever, like it becomes a thing where a competitor on this on show is just like I have to have high spice, highest cidity. I have to blow out the judge's palette because I got fifteen other dishes that I have to stand out from. And sometimes if someone who's been in that, it's like, oh, I have to stand out from the peach drizzled with olive oil. Let me hit them with some spice and highest cidity. So good points taken in the rebuttal Chris, you got two minutes now to let while you know why he's absolutely wrong. I know you're going to enjoy it. Your two minutes starts now. I'm gonna I'm gonna be generous and spend a couple of seconds agreeing that anybody who challenges the credibility of a chef or whatever because they don't like a certain taste is crazy, Like Wiley, is proof that you have strong opinions and preferences and still be one of the great chefs in the world. I'll grant you that, but I'm going to reaput a bunch of stuff you it earlier. First, this idea that chilies don't want to be eaten because and that's why they're spicy. It's a protection for the plant being delicious has created has spread chilies all over the world. Being delicious is what has ensured their survival and spread to the entire planet. That is why they were spread, and animals did spread them. By the way, birds are responsible for spreading most chilies. Second, you know, you talk about it being a vestige of the old world five years ago, how we ate blah blah blah, we have refrigeration. Now I look at it this way. I think it's a connection to the pre Columbian America's because the four species of chili we eat today, all chilies are derived from the same four species. Those are the four species that Native Americans first cultivated, and we have not improved on what they did all those years ago. Next, you're saying, like, nobody likes to feel sweaty and these endorphins and it's gross and you feel yucky. Almost everything in life that makes you sweat is good. Exercise good, being uncomfortable, nervous in a situation good for you, sex, good for you. All of these things are good things for eating spicy food food good. You know, whiley said tacos with milk is a bad, bad idea, that's disgusting. Tacos without spice also not good, Like you can't eat them without without spiciness, you can get an ulcer tummy, eg. From eating too much spice. You can die from eating too much of anything. That's not a defining characteristic of chili peppers. And then you wanted to cite the great Noma and Renee rad Zeppi and Danish food as a an example of where great food thrives without chili peppers. Wiley, If you go to Noma today and you walk through the greenhouse, what is Renee ra Zeppe growing in his greenhouse a bunch of chili peppers that he brought back from Mexico, Because that dude loves spice. So if the greatest chef of the greatest restaurant is cooking with chilis, I don't know that seems like an argument on my side more than yours. Wow. Well, the only thing that this judge will have to make a note is you know, we're talking about the greatest cheft of his time, and to me, that's Wiley. So, I mean, I love Renee, but I mean I'm just gonna get I mean again, it's not gonna factor into my judgment. But when we're talking greatest. We're getting into goats. It's true, It's true. That's wild defra Okay, you guys have given me a ton to think about. I'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, We are back, and I have made up my mind, I think. But before I give my final verdict, do either of you have a final word you'd like to say to the court. This is your last chance to further convince me or change my mind again. You know, I feel like we had a pretty good run at w D fifty over thirteen years, and there was very little use of spice. It was. There were a lot of things. People criticized us for a lot, a lot, and at no point did anyone say I wish the food was spice here, my drop. I agree with Wiley that the sort of unjudicious just random housing with chili flakes, housing with hot sauce onto anything you're eating. How spicy can we make it? Is not a good practice. But the argument was spicy food has no place, which I feel like has not been proven here today. There's you haven't even gotten close to the idea that spicy food has no place. I mean, w D fifty had a beautiful and important run with very little spice. Mexican food has had a longer run with a lot of spice. Mexico had a better lease. It's true, it's true, and so far hasn't you know. Alright, an epic battle here, and I think that this court has made up its mind. It's a tough one, and I'll be honest, the verdict is gonna come down here. It's it's, it's it's it's gonna get pretty technical here. Some of the great arguments that were made during the debate, the evolutionary side of it, that plants were protect themselves to not eat it, and then Christian with a great response that it propagated plant life because by being so delicious that it's spread and that's how you get more chilies. You know, maybe it's not spice. Maybe it's msg as Wiley said that that's the thing that truly makes food delicious is spice, even a flavor. Can you blow out someone's palid and just destroy the flavor of everything with spice? You can? This one really, really, this one was tough. Comes down to I think the technicality here, the technicality here, and the technicality is that spice has no place. This court disagrees, this court favors spicy food. Well not not the extremists. This this, this podcast will not be sponsored by Asked Blaster three thousand anytime soon, nor will we be having some sort of really spicy cook off for game to play on the podcast to see if anyone can eat the one chip challenge or whatever it is. But I do think that there's there's some merit for some spice. Wiley, They're right, though, it's it. It has to be in the hands of a master. I'm certainly not that person. It's okay, you know, I understand. You know. For the record, I am still a big fan of Professor Yang, and I am honored to have had a dialogue with him about the subject. Yeah, And I mean we've been Wiley and I we had this conversation, this argument off the air many times, and and I actually I do I will say this, I do disagree with Wiley fundamentally on spicy food. But more than more than that disagreement, I appreciate that Wiley exists and Wiley has his opinion and like will not be shamed out of it, will not bow to the extremists. Wiley you're you're, you're, you're perhaps defeated but undeterred. Yeah, well, I mean story that's gonna say that, I'm my gravestone. Thank you very much. That's that's that's okay. But I do think listen, I mean, the chemistry amongst the both of you was pretty amazing. Like, thank you everyone for listening to Food Court. I'm Richard Blaze. For more Wiley, you can find him on Instagram at Wiley do Frame and pick up his cookbook w D fifty the Cookbook for his recipes. I'm holding onto a signed copy. There's only two copies left, so grandam while you can, oh go get him, go get the reprints coming soon, I hope. And for more Chris, you can catch him on The Recipe Club and the Dave Chang Show podcast where they're just crushing it and he's written books like Ivan Romen, The Mission, Chinese Food Cookbook and You and I Eat the Same sending what do you think? I know half of you think that I got this wrong. Maybe well maybe in this case, I think that I got this wrong. But if you're dying to share your opinion, don't hold back. Let me know on Twitter and Instagram. At Richard Blazer on the TikTok at Richard Blaze Official and find the show on Instagram at food Court Pod to let us know, food Court is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Richard Blaze. My producer is Crystal Bomahi Food Corp. Was created by Christopher hasciyotas the rest of my food Court clerks or Jonathan Dressler, David Wasserman, and Jasmine Blaze. Our theme song is by Jason NI Smith. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Awesome, Enjoy the rest of you day. Guys, Bass super fun. Thanks Chris, you're the best.