09 Oct 2024

Published Oct 9, 2024, 9:30 AM

On FOCAL POINT:

  • Dr Ceecee Britten Jones, from the Centre for Eye Research, sharing news about work on The Advanced Genomics Collaboration to help find the genetic causes of many unidentified retinal diseases.  10th October is World Sight Day, you can find out more by calling 03 8344 3441 or emailing IRD@groups.unimelb.edu.au
  • Darrin Johnson, Volunteer Business Advisor For EP Global, introducing us to an e-tandem. This is perfect for riders of all abilities. 
  • Roy Lucian Baza, recording and song writing artist has overcome a glaucoma diagnosis and just released his latest single Does Your Girlfriend Know About me" Find out more here: https://roylucianbazamusic.com/
  • David Woodbridge has just joined Humanware as a Blindness Products Specialist. David will be at Tech Fest 6th November at U City 43 Franklin Street in Adelaide. 
    Book by calling 1300 994 306  Contact Humanware on 02 9686 2600 or go to: https://www.humanware.com/en-australia/home 

Good evening and welcome to Focal Point here on Vision Australia Radio 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide, online at via radio.org via Radio Digital in Adelaide via Radio Digital in Darwin through the TuneIn radio app or the Community Radio Plus app. Look for Vision Australia Radio Adelaide your favourite podcast or streaming service. We're also fairness and a very big hello from Peter Greco and a big cheerio to Wendy McDougall and Philip Van de beer. This program coming to you from Garner Land come to you very, very shortly with World Sight Day coming up. Or maybe it's just gone, depending on when you're listening in. We'll catch up with Doctor Sissy Britton Jones from the centre for Eye Research, talking about great work in the area of inherited retinal disease and the advanced genomic collaboration will also catch up with Darren Johnson, who many people know is involved with the group called Epi Global and they've got an EA tandem. We'll find out much more about that from. Darren will then catch up with Roy Lucien Bazor, artist who was diagnosed with glaucoma at the age of 19. We'll find out about Roy, that particular diagnosis and his music career and David Woodward Georgiana's hashtag Mr.. Technology. David has come to Techfest on behalf of Humanware. We'll catch up with David. If you're listening through 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide at 8:00 for your listening pleasure. Lizzie and Sam are here with Studio one just before we hear what's on studio one. Just wanted to make a short comment on the comments by Anthony Albanese. Prime Minister Albanese in Parliament on Tuesday regarding reference to Tourette syndrome. He did withdraw the comments. The prime minister also did did come back and make a very detailed apology. But I think that just speaks to the seriousness of such a misspeak. We can all misspeak, but that was pretty bad and you just wonder what repercussions that may have. Let's find out what's on studio one tonight.

What's it like to lose your sight? We talk to Kirsten and Michael about their remarkable journeys with vision loss.

So join us at eight for Studio one.

Well, with World Sight Day coming up, it's great to catch up with the tremendous work that's going on at the center for research. Sarah. And on this occasion, under the spotlight is doctor CC Britton Jones. CC if I might call you that. Thank you for your time.

Thanks for having me, Peter.

That's just about the work that you're doing. It's in the area of advanced genomic collaboration. Tell us a bit about what it is and what sort of conditions you're working on.

Our research is on better understanding what causes genetic eye diseases. So we work with people with a class of eye diseases called inherited retinal diseases. These are genetic conditions that generally cause vision loss from quite a young age. So they're a very major cause of vision loss of working age adults. And they normally onset in adolescence or sort of childhood or early 20s. Somewhere in that range can be quite variable, but they cause a person to slowly lose vision sort of over a number of years. And we know that these conditions are caused by a change in the genes. So in the genetics, that's what causes vision loss. And what our research is, is that we use different genetic testing techniques to try and understand what are the genetic changes that are causing these diseases. And really the goal is to be able to better diagnose people with these conditions, understand what's causing them and get them then into emerging gene therapy clinical trials.

Now some of the conditions are things like retinitis pigmentosa and Stargardt Stargardt's disease. Absolutely.

That's correct. So some of the most common types are retinitis pigmentosa, as you've mentioned, which generally causes peripheral vision loss first and then central vision loss a little bit later in the disease or stargardt disease, which is almost the opposite. That causes central vision loss first and then peripheral vision loss a little bit later. But not all of them sort of fall into these neat buckets. A lot of inherited retinal diseases, what we know are quite are quite variable. And so they can present with very different symptoms, very different rates of progression even within people of the same families or the same genes. Um, and so they can be quite challenging to diagnose to start with.

And so you're trying to work out why it is so, why is it so that, you know, in say in a family situation, it might develop at different rates in different, you know, different people that have got it.

Exactly. That is absolutely something we're trying to understand. So number one is, you know, what are the genetic changes that might be associated with these diseases. And then once we have that and we have people sort of with all of the same conditions, with the same genes, we then really want to figure out why do the same genetic changes, or people with the same disease have very different rates of progression or manifest very differently.

So even though you know which genes they are, you don't know why they impact the way they do.

No. And some of the challenges is really because they are rare diseases. And so because inherited retinal diseases are less common, that a lot of the other eye diseases that we have, it can be very hard to get, you know, a lot of people with the same condition, with the same genetic causes to try and investigate. And another reason, I guess, why being involved in research is really, really important. And I guess.

That's the kind of thing, you know, when it comes to things like research, you need kind of the the data, the weight of numbers, if I can say to kind of back up a thesis or back up an argument that you might be putting forward.

Absolutely. So, Peter, when we try and answer these research questions, for example, questions like, you know, how do these genetic changes lead to disease? Or why do these diseases manifest differently in different people? We really need evidence to support that. And the evidence really has to come from, you know, data of different people with these conditions so that we can conclusively or we can we have more evidence, um, to generate to try and answer some of these questions without that evidence, to support our hypotheses, without, you know, data to back that up, we really won't be able to develop new treatments and have more understanding of what causes these different eye diseases.

Now this kind of comes down to the heading of collaboration. So I'm thinking collaboration kind of, uh, you know, both in Australia but also internationally.

Yeah. Collaboration is such an important part of what we do. Um, so we our team and also I know a lot of other teams at Sara as well, all actively try and collaborate with other researchers both within Australia and all around the world, particularly for us in genetic research and in rare diseases, genetic research collaboration is so important. And that is because one is that we do work with rare diseases, and so it can be quite hard to find a number of people from around the world, all with the same genetic changes that cause disease. And so what that means is that we really need to pool our data and resources from multiple centres to try and better understand some of these conditions better. In the context of genetic analysis. The way that I always think about it is, you know, some of these conditions, in order to try and diagnose these diseases, in order to try and provide an answer to a family about what is the genetic change that causes their disease. Before that, we actually need to have identified about two, at least 2 or 3 other families from all around the world with exactly the same disease, with exactly the same changes in the genes, in the same genes, who all have the same condition, who have all been verified. All of that data need to be pulled together before we can actually give a new family a new diagnosis. And so identifying all of that can be quite challenging. And also another reason why so many people remain unsolved. It is because, you know, we simply just haven't got enough data together and enough families identified.

That's a rare disease. So the more if you like rare people, you can get in as many centers as you can. That kind of hopefully adds up to a bigger number to give you a bigger pool, to kind of, uh, deduce your information from.

Absolutely. That's exactly right.

So how do you go about that? Because I know that having spoken to people from Sarah for many years on this program, fortunately. So it seems like there's a lot of willingness from the general public to, I can call them that to kind of get involved with research. And it.

Really is. And we're very, very lucky. So in our group, we have a big database of people with different inherited retinal diseases. And that's something that we've built over the last 3 or 4 years. And so anyone with an inherited retinal disease who's willing to be a part of research, we then register them into our registry called the Venture registry. From there, we try and collect different information about their condition. So things like, you know, when were they diagnosed? What gene have they paginated testing, how were they diagnosed. And all of that information. And then using that information we then try and understand more about different inherited retinal diseases. We invite them to come into our clinic to learn more about their condition and the genes that causes them. And we also use this information to let them let them know about future clinical trials that then become available at Sierra or at other sites around Australia, if they want to be notified of those things. And so that's something that we've been building over the last four years. And that's really been really a rich, a really beautiful resource for us because it's really allowed us to connect with over 400 families now that have these different inheritable diseases. And this information is also really, really critical for us to involve people in research if they'd like to be. And for us to learn more about these different conditions as well.

And I guess when you talk about the history of medicine, if you like, four years is not a long time. So in a sense, you're kind of still, you know, in the early stages of what a putting your kind of groups of people together, but kind of, you know, uh, sort of deciphering information from it.

That's exactly right. And it is because of, you know, because of this database and because of the support that we've had from people with different inherited retinal diseases and also from different people, from families really wanting a genetic diagnosis and being motivated to participate in genetic research, that we're now able to build a new platform. And so that's one of the studies that I'm leading at the moment. Um, it's one it's the genomic sequencing study and that we're very lucky to be supported by the Advanced Genomics Collaboration at the University of Melbourne in a partnership with Illumina. And what this study is allowing us to do is that it is allowing us to find new genetic changes that might be causing different inherited retinal diseases, and using new sequencing technologies to try and find these novel discoveries to get people into new treatments. And so that's some of the really exciting work that we're currently doing, that we're only able to really undertake this work because of the motivation that we've had for families being involved in the research and our our previous work with them as part of the.

Reason why families want to get involved. CC because it kind of might affect or impact upon their, you know, family planning. If I can say that they can kind of have a bit more of an idea of, you know, the relative chances of children that they may have be impacted as well.

It really is. And so because we know with inherited retinal diseases, there's a very strong genetic cause that we've talked about. In other words, in every person that has one of these inherited retinal diseases, that disease can usually be caused or attributed back to one gene or one change. And knowing that change is really, really important. One, as you said, it really does help us know more about, you know, information for family planning. But actually, finally, a lot of our a lot of our participants aren't really are the ones, the ones who come into our study aren't always the ones who want to go into family planning pathways, because they usually would have had genetic testing already. So even beyond reasons for family planning, we know that, for example, people who are younger than that or who are older than that still want that genetic information. Um, and so we think that wanting to find a diagnosis. Yes, the information is really helpful for family planning. The information also helps people know whether or not they might be eligible for future gene therapy clinical trials, because in order to know whether or not you're eligible for a treatment, you need to really know what gene is causing your condition to be eligible. for for a treatment for that gene. But a third reason, which I really don't think is talked about enough, is that just knowing the answer is really, really powerful. So for someone with a rare disease or for any with any disease, just knowing what is causing your disease, knowing what the genetic causes and you know how that manifested and what it is, that's really, really powerful information. And that level of empowerment is not talked about enough. I think we.

Can all identify with that, because in a sense, it's a little bit about why me not not in a necessarily necessarily a negative sense. But, you know, people can probably think, well, hang on, you know, why am I the chosen one for this type of thing?

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes it's almost just like having, you know, an answer. Yeah, to a question that you've had in your life. And so yeah, that's that information can be really helpful as well. Yeah.

Probably really unfair question Stacy, but how's it going in terms of making progress? You know, I guess it's not, you know, something that happens overnight?

No, I really, really wish it was.

So your little your little smile then gave it all away. That was the that that kind of gave us the answer we thought we might get.

Look, I think I speak for, you know, all the researchers and everyone in this area that if we could wake up tomorrow just with a cure, um, we would all be very, very happy. I mean, I may be out of a job, but, you know, that will be. That's okay. That's something that I'm very, very willing to concede in. Yeah. Um, but I think with any research, it is a little step. You know, it's always one little step at a time. Um, and so it's not just about developing, you know, a treatment you could wake up with the best idea, but it's also about one finding different people, giving them a diagnosis before they can know if they're eligible for new treatments. Um, and when a new treatment is developed, it's making sure that it is tested, you know, very, very rigorously and making sure that it is safe. Um, and that it can actually have an effect, a positive effect in that sense. But also I think on a really positive note, I think we've come closer than we ever have before in developing treatments, particularly for a lot of these genetic conditions. And that is because the field of genomics have changed more in the last, I think, five and ten years than it ever has been. You know, in 2003, the human genome was mapped for the first time. And about ten years ago in 2013, next generation sequencing, which is a type of genetic testing that can look at multiple genes at the same time, was really implemented in inherited retinal diseases. And so then, you know, in 2017, the world's first gene therapy treatment for any eye disease was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration. And so we have really, really looking back, we have seen progress. And so I think we can have hope for the future that hopefully all of these things that we have learned can help us find new treatments for these inherited retinal diseases. And it is still it is still slow. It is one step at a time. But I think collaboration and working together not only with other researchers, but also with different families with inherited diseases is making a difference.

And how about in terms of people either getting in touch or you reaching out for people, is that sort of a constant thing that, you know, that's always kind of, uh, a chance for more people to get involved with research?

Absolutely. And so I think I mentioned our inherited retinal diseases registry in that registry. What we do is when people get in touch with us, we'll send them the study information. If they choose to sign on to the registry, they can really be as involved as they like. So we have, for example, interstate participants and some from New Zealand as well, who are on our registry, who we really just, you know, speak to whenever we can send them new research, things like research, surveys, interviews, because they aren't able to come in in person and we try and collect any information we can from their existing ophthalmologist or optometrist. We also then have people that do come regularly for other studies So, you know, they might come and come and, you know, once, even every few months for imaging studies or for genetic sequencing studies or other studies. And so the level of involvement really is can be quite tailored depending on how available everyone is. But we very much would encourage everyone, if you're willing to, to be involved, because that is really how we move the field forward. And, you know, we're really working together to try and understand more about these conditions.

And contacting Sarah through the website is probably the best kind of starting point. Yeah.

So you're very.

Welcome. Anyone is welcome to contact Sarah through the website. And if it is an inherited retinal disease query that will usually be passed directly to our team. We also have a team email address that anyone can use to contact us directly. And this email address is open to not only anyone who's willing to participate in or want to learn more about the research or want to participate. But we also get, you know, emails from our clinicians. So ophthalmologist or optometrist, asking, you know, can I refer a patient to you or is this person potentially eligible if they're interested? And that kind of thing. So anyone is welcome to email us. Um, so our email is I r d so the letter I r d at groups. So groups dot uml u n I e l b.edu.edu. So it's ird at groups email.edu. Edu. Um but our information is also on the RNA Australia website. So the Retina Australia website is excellent for finding out more not only about our research but also other research studies around Australia. And so a lot of our study information is currently on the Retina Australia website. If anyone would like to know more about it. And our contact information is on there as well. All right.

We'll put that up on our Facebook page so people can also go there. And they can always call us here at the station if they've missed any of those details. CC I'm always inspired and just fascinated by the incredible work that's going on at Sierra. You've certainly added to that. Thanks so much for some time.

Thank you. Peter, thank you for having me.

That's doctor CC Britton Jones. Wow. It's amazing isn't it? To the work that's going on in the area of inherited retinal disease. It's always great catching up with some old friends of this particular program. It's great to welcome back to the program after a little while in the wilderness, without the wilderness to be doing other things. Darren Johnson. Darren. Great. It's great to catch up again.

Yeah, thanks. It's been too long, but I'm glad to be back on Focal Point. Yeah. You're speaking.

To us as a volunteer business advisor with a company called EPP EPP Group, FP.

Global. Yeah. That's right. And EPP Eyre Peninsula. So it's a little business based down in Port Lincoln.

All right, well, tell us the background.

So Chris is the gentleman's name. He founded the business and he's he lives, as I said, lives out of Port Lincoln and for a number of years is a bit of a hobby. He's been doing up that bikes. So he's been, you know, restoring old BMX and other bikes and donating them to rotary and charities and for kids in need or local schools. This is a bit of a hobby. While I was working and, um, he developed a new concept, a, uh, a tandem bike. So an electric powered tandem bike. And and how he came up with this is one day he he was working as a linesman at a subcontracting, checking the power lines. And in the country areas, they do that via helicopter. So there's a pilot flying the helicopter and he is in there and he's got technology and he they, you know, put it out of the helicopter and they take signals and they work out what how the power is going through the, the big lines. So he was flying around in the peninsula doing this. And he flew over an old farm and leaning against the shed, he spotted a rusted out old tandem bike. And he thought that would be cool to do up. And so, you know, he lands, obviously. And then on the weekend he gets his pilot, he tries to drive it around and speaking from the farm and he couldn't find it because it's actually quite difficult. And you've, um, you know, seeing something from the er to translate where it is on the ground. So he couldn't find it and eventually gave up. And it was another two years later where he was obviously being rostered to check the same area again, and he spotted it, and this time he marked it on his GPS. So he went and found the farm, spoke to the farmer, I think. I think he gave him a, you know, six pack of beer or something for the bike. In the end it was, you know, a rusted out thing brought it back and he did it up. And so he had this tandem bike, and then him and his family were just riding it around town. They have no connection to this ability. It was just a fun thing. And the thing with tandems is you may know, Peter, you've probably ridden one yourself. They can be a bit heavy and if they're going uphill and you're not the fittest person in the world, you'd social rider, um, they're not the easiest things to ride. So he decided to electrify one, put an electric motor on it, and then through that process, he got lots of attention in the local town. People kept stopping him and asking him about the bike, and so he eventually put his mind to actually designing a proper commercial level or, you know, purchasable level grade e-bike. And so that's what we've now released. We've got available different, different models which are based with different colours and different accessory options. But we have a core, um, e tandem bike available for the vision loss community to consider.

Now, I think the good news is that it'll be at Tech Fest, so people want to check it out. Yeah.

So the RFP have come on board and our main distributor of the bike at this stage. So there's there's one of the bikes is permanently kept at their adaptive technology centre in the Pirie Street office. So there's a bike there permanently. And that bike will also be attending Tech Fest. So if you're heading into Tech Fest you can have a look at it there. But also if you know the RSV Adaptive Technology Centre in Adelaide and a lot of your listeners will, um, you can make a time to go in and see them and have a look at the bike. It's got some unique features, um, which we might talk about in a minute, but it's um, it's certainly there on.

Display.

And you can talk to them about it and how you may be able to use your NDIS package to consider getting hold of that. Okay.

Well, what are some of the unique features? What sets this apart? Yeah.

So I guess if you if most of your listeners might be familiar with agenda, but generally speaking they are sort of a racer style bike, as I would have called them in my days when we grew up. They called them a racer bike that they're sort of more a sports orientated bike. So they, um, they're about actually riding more generally for fitness, etc. most of them, what we've designed is much more of a Sunday ride, leisurely bike that anybody can ride, regardless of fitness. So it's got quite low wheels, so it's only got 20 inch wheels, so it's not massively high off the ground. When you're sitting on the bike, you can just simply take your feet off the pedals and your feet will go straight on the ground, and you won't even be on tippy toes. It's really easy to do it. It's got quite a low style frame, so it's really easy to get on and off, you know, with the high styled racing bike frames. Some people find it as you get a bit older. Um, they're hard.

To get.

On and off. This has got a really low frame, so it's easy to get your leg over it. And the other thing that he's done, which I think is ingenious is, is he's made it foldable. So there's a folding mechanism that folds it down to quite a small size, and it can fit in the boot of a normal family car or on the back seat or something. So you don't need to have sort of special racking capabilities. And um, with all those things combined, it's super easy to ride. So, um, you know, I personally haven't ridden a bike for ages, and, um, I got on one and within about two minutes I was zipping around the place, and, um, it's just such an easy product to use. It's really designed for, you know, just simply, you know, get it, have a couple of minutes of instructions, really, about how to trigger the motor, um, and control the motor. And then, um, once you know that and it's very, very straightforward, um, you can be off and riding within a few minutes. So, Darren.

Do you actually kind of pedal if you like. Are you getting any exercise at all or are you just kind of sitting and staring?

You can you can do both. So, um, you have to give it a bit of a pedal to get going. So the motor requires a bit of a kick around, a couple of pedals turned over to get it going. You can then cease pedaling. You won't be forced to pedal. You know, it's not one of these ones where it turns the pedal so your legs have to move. You can just pause and ride it a bit like a almost a bit like a tandem mini motorbike, I suppose. And yeah, and just ride it around under the motor and it will go up to about 25 K's an hour under that power. Um, so you can get along. I mean, that's, that's the that's also the legal, um, maximum. So we've actually programmed it so you can't go over the speed limit. The motor will kick out if you're starting to go over it and it will slow itself down. But you can also pedal though as well. So you can pedal assisted. So if you want to pedal for exercise on top of using the motor. And then within that you can, you know, you can turn, you can just take your finger off that. It's just got a little finger throttle control. You just let go of the throttle and you can just entirely pedal like a normal bike if you wish. Um, and then at any time, just press the throttle again and the motor will kick in. So what's kind.

Of powering it.

So it's it's.

A 250.

Watt electric motor. And it's a very small, compact motor. So Chris has done a fantastic job in actually sourcing the right componentry. And he's got, um, probably the most compact, powerful small motor on the market, which means that it's really easy to navigate on and off the bike. It's just literally just clips on and clips off with a, um, a Velcro clipping system. It charges. It's um, um, it's kind of almost the size of a large drink bottle, but nothing more than that. It's, um, literally like a drink bottle for a bike sort of drink bottle that you often would use on a bike. It's about the same size, so it can attach to multiple spots on the frame. Um, and it powers the front wheel, which is really important from a safety point of view because the bike, like all bikes, does have gears on the back wheel for if you're riding it without the motor, and if you use the power, if you power the back wheel with the motor, you can actually get up to fairly frightening speeds. Um, so, um, so we've designed this to power the front wheel. There's a sensor on the front wheel. And then if you're getting too quick or you're getting fairly quick, the motor will cut out. And that'll cause the bloke the bike to slow. So it's all about safety. The motor. The motor is quite, um, powerful in that it will give you about a 50 odd kilometre range if you don't pedal at all. Um, if you do a bit of pedalling, that'll that'll go for substantially longer than that. And, you know, it's got a full flat, totally flat to totally charged, um, time of about four hours, but for most people, an hour on the charger and you'll be good to go again.

Yeah, well, if you're driving for four hours, you're doing exceptionally well. G yeah. Like, uh, Chris has thought of everything in terms of, uh, kind of making it accessible or user friendly, if I can put it that way. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Chris is an older gentleman himself, and so he wanted it to be he was really focused on it being comfortable and being comfortable for people that haven't ridden before. So his ultimate test was when he I think he put his, uh, I think it was his mum or maybe his mother in law, who must be sort of in, must be sort of, you know, towards 80s now. And she's jumped on and had a go and said, oh, that's that's fantastic. It's so easy. So, um, it really, really is simple, um, to use and, um, quite safe, um, very easy to get on and off. Very easy to just put your feet down. Um, it's really designed. It's designed to be a pleasure bike. It's designed to, you know, a nice day on a Sunday, and you want you and a friend or family member want to go on a ride together. You can jump on the the tandem bike and off you go. It's not a racer. It's not a high performance machine. It's it's about nice little Sunday outing or a, you know, a nice ride down to the beach and back down Linear Park or along the beach trails or whatever you like. It's it's really about comfort, like comfortable in bed and see the, the small little thing seats very upright position. So you're not hunched over the bike. You won't get a sore back. Yeah. Um, yeah. Really, really designed for just anybody to have a bit of fun with. It's about fun. It's not about sport. It's not about fitness or sport. Although you can definitely treadle your legs over and get a bit of fitness through it as well. Well, I guess when.

You think of it, you know, there's elite athletes who obviously ride for, you know, for serious stuff, but that would be the minority. There'd be a lot of people that would potentially would be interested in purchasing something like this. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And look, my involvement was simply that, I mean, I don't know how many listeners will call me from back in the days when I was working at the Royal Society.

Forget you, Darren.

Um, but, um, but, you know, I've got a I've got a Sally's it's actually 20 now, but, um, and he's got, um, HP and and he, we, we did a lot of cycling and, and he did tandem cycling for a while. But you know, there was a point in time where I would have loved this product where, you know, on a Sunday I'd have been him and I would have been able to go out for just a pleasure ride. And it would have been it would have been a terrific product. So. So when I took a look at it, that was sort of my interest, I went, oh man, I can see lots and lots of people in the vision loss community really loving this product. And so it's been a bit of a passion project of mine to assist Chris to, to get it to the point where it's now available for people to look at. And we are um, it's literally just become available at that level. So we just got asked to agree to become a distributor and uh, um, and also we've done some training with their OTS, um, because obviously a lot of people are going to probably use their NDIS package to consider getting this sort of thing funded.

That's fantastic. I get a bit a bit of a funny question, but the person who owned the original bike that Chris saw, were they visually impaired? How did the bike get to where it did? No, it looked.

To be honest, I don't know that. Okay. He you know, Chris, Chris didn't really sort of think about it. I suppose he almost wasn't thinking about tandems from the point of view of vision loss. So he was riding around the tandem around town with his wife, and they both have perfect vision. Um, but, um, so he was just riding. He was thinking, yeah, it was just more that this is a fun thing. And it was only when, um.

He studied.

Some more. Seriously, so many people were stopping him about it and asking me about it. He started to seriously think about it. And some people have said, you know this the the birth of tandem bikes is really to support, um, riding for people with vision loss. And so, um, it was very fortuitous. Um, um, it was literally a friend of mine in Brooklyn these days happens to be his next door neighbor and saw him playing around on it and, and said, oh, I know a bloke in Adelaide who might be interested in helping you out here, and he's got a son that's vision loss. And he used to do bike riding and, and you know, he might be happy to help. And so it's been a real, um, a passion project to help Chris and get it going. Yeah, the.

Rest is history. Now you've got a Facebook page where people can check it out, I guess, with photos and get a bit more information about it. Yeah.

So look, we are working on getting a website. We had a bit of a bad luck with a website organization that, um, has kind of ceased business and we're just trying to negotiate to get our code back. So up until about a week ago, I could have said, yep, there's a website. Um, but, um, it's gone down. But if you go on to.

Facebook.

But can you just use your search function on Facebook and just type in tandem, as in E and a hyphen tandem? Oh yeah. We will come up and there's a, there's there's only there's only 1 or 2 groups. Most of them are not tandems. And you'll see the business name Epcglobal associated with that. Um, so, um, if you hit us up that way or the other, obvious one is to engage with the RSP. You know, the bike is in there. Um, there. Um, we've also in the last week, a group of staff and guide dogs have done some training with us on how to use the bike. Um, they've got a youth camp or a youth day event coming up, I think next week. Um, they're going to have one of our bikes at that, and they'll be, um, using that with the kids involved in their independence camp. So we're just starting to, you know, get this product out and about, but you will start to see more of it, I guess, from here.

Darren, thanks for sharing some time with us. It'll be good to catch up again in the future and see how it's going. But, uh, so when people look for it and I'm on Facebook and you're the voluntary business advisor for EP global. Thanks for speaking to us.

Yeah. No worries. Always a pleasure. And yeah, we'll hopefully we'll talk again.

That's Darren Johnson there right. Well that's sounds like a really fantastic thing. And Darren to join us and let us into the sacred. And it will be at Techfest which is November 6th at 43 Franklin Street. So we'll talk more about Techfest in coming weeks as well. You're listening to.

Focalpoint on Beaten Australia Radio 1190 7 a.m. via radio, digital and online at RVA radio.org.

Let's go all the way to the US and speak to recording artist and songwriter Roy Lucien Barter. Roy, welcome to Vision Australia radio. Great to speak to you.

Hi, Peter. Thank you so much. Great to speak to you as well.

Now you've recently released your latest single, How's It Going and are you pleased with the way things are going?

I am, does your girlfriend know about me? Came out about three weeks ago. It's been going very well and I'm very excited to see where the rest of the year is headed with it.

You're a busy person, Roy. We've been trying to track you down. You do a fair bit of travel. Obviously, things are going well as far as your recording and sort of performing career goes.

Yes, I, I'm all over the place. I, uh, I leave back to LA Sunday. So I'm in San Francisco right now. I'm here for a show on Saturday, and then I'm out of here Sunday for another show next week in LA.

So work is good, business is good, if I can put it that way.

Yes. Very good.

Roy, uh, at 19, uh, something rather unpleasant happened to you. Do you want to share that story with us?

Yes. Uh, at 19, I was diagnosed with glaucoma. So how that started is I was at a concert the evening before, uh, the morning I woke up and I couldn't see out of my right eye, and, um, I initially thought it was just allergies, and it just kept getting worse. The vision just kept getting more blurry. And my mom had taken me in to see a, uh, optometrist, and she came back in the room looking like she had saw a ghost. Um, she told me. And my mom, your son has a cataract of a 75 year old in his right eye. And at 19, I didn't know what a cataract was. I wasn't familiar with that. So she immediately referred me to a specialist in ophthalmology. And, uh, the cataract was taken care of for for about a month. I had the surgery. I was in the, you know, getting my checkups with him. But my pressure started increasing after about a month, and it just kept getting worse and worse eventually to we got to the point where I was in the hospital basically every day getting pressure checks until it became too much. And I eventually had another surgery, another eye surgery where a tube was inserted into my eye. And since then I've had seven major eye surgeries and of course, all the hundreds of days of treatment. But now we are on year. I think we're going on year 11 with this now. Um, so it's it's, you know, it's it's been there for about 11 years now. And I'm very grateful for my doctors and the treatments that I was given. Um, I continue to be given when I go into the hospital.

And how is your side? At the moment.

I like to say that it's just kind of there. Um, my left does all basically all the main seeing for me. My right. It's like a complicated relationship we have. It's just really blurry on the right side. And really it's just like, you see, like colors and whatnot. So my left does majority of the seeing for me. It never really went back to normal after all the glaucoma surgeries. But we reached a point of stability where I'm able to go in now, every other month now for treatment as opposed to every day and every week as before, which works in my favor. So I'm able to go out and do my career, you know, keep going forward with that stuff.

What about talking about it like you are to us? And we really appreciate that. You've been very open with that. I've read a number of different interviews that you've done. So it's kind of good to make people aware. And I guess, you know, 19 you think you're kind of ten foot tall and bulletproof, as we like to say, but things can happen. Bad things can happen.

Yes. And very suddenly, you know, going, I was just at a concert and I had the time of my life. And the next morning I woke up and I straight up just couldn't see. And I, I just thought it was allergies, but, you know, to go from a cataract to being diagnosed with glaucoma was just so out of left field for me, and I was never familiar with anything in the eye and the realm of, of that side of, of, um, you know, the medical field and everything. And to have gone through everything in the last 11 years. I'm grateful because it's it's helped me, you know, glaucoma gave me something to come forward with and talk about and raise awareness as opposed to, you know, there's not a lot of people that talk about this publicly. And if I could be one that openly shares my story with everyone and, you know, have have that help people, I'm more than glad to do that.

We've got World Sight Day coming up October 10th. So very, very timely. What about the impact it's kind of had on you as a person and also as a performer? As a songwriter? Does it, you know, sort of peculiar sort of way give you a bit of inspiration or maybe some material for for songwriting?

Of course, my whole first album is about that time period, basically when I was first diagnosed, up until I was released out of my everyday treatment from the hospital. Um, so very, very impactful on my life and everything that I do. Um, and I wouldn't be here telling the stories that I write and create now without this experience that I've gone through over the last 11 years, you have.

Been public, and obviously you're well known, particularly in the music industry. And, you know, people that love your music. I saw, I think, nearly up to 400,000 hits on YouTube, which is very, very impressive, right? Um, do you find that people are contacting you and sort of saying, hey, Roy, you know, thank you for sharing your story. You know, I've got a similar one or, you know, my, my, my father or my, my child has got a similar one. Is that kind of a, a powerful thing to be able to kind of do as well?

You know what? When they do come up to me, which I, I get it often, actually, I, I didn't think that was going to happen when I, you know, first started opening up about my experiences and whatnot. But um, when they do come up with me, I remember each and every one of them, and I feel a special connection to them. And, um, yeah, I have a song called memories that will stick with me for life. And every time somebody comes up to me and talks to me about their experience with glaucoma or anything dealing with, you know, the eye and and all that stuff, I always cherish our interactions and, um, take that to heart because it's, you know, it could be a very heavy subject to talk about and to have them physically come up to me and They come up to me after my shows quite often because I, you know, I bring it up during my shows. I always it's a part of me and I, I, I embrace it and I don't try to hide it. Um, and I'm glad that the conversation is open and they feel comfortable talking to me about, you know, what they may be going through or, like you said, their parents or grandparents or someone they know and love has gone through.

What about your early days, Roy? What got you into music?

I've been singing since I was three. Um. And writing since I was 11 years old. Uh, my mom, my mom is very big in music, and, uh, both of my parents always had music on in the house and raised me in that world. I was in church choir growing up, middle school band, jazz band, all that stuff. So it's always been a part of me.

Now, when you are 30 or soon to be 30, so what sort of influences were around? Well, 27 years ago. And what about today? What influences you? I see you a couple of, um, what should I say, uh, older stars or more mature stars kind of influence you as well. People like Bruno Mars and Prince.

Yes, I love I grew up with R&B music and of course Prince Michael Jackson, you know, and then the modern day older stars like Bruno and The Weeknd and all those amazing artists within the R&B world, those are, you know, what I've been raised on and continue to be raised on and inspired by and aspire to be. I just grew up loving that kind of music. I also grew up on like Elvis and um, Miley Cyrus and all just generational acts that have impacted what I do is.

That kind of part of the appeal. If you like, that, you can be very eclectic with your with your choice of music that either you listen to or that influence you.

Yes. You know, my first album, Roy Self-Titled, has various genres, from country to pop to alternative. This new album, Lover Boy Lucien, which is where the Does Your Girlfriend Know about me? Single comes from is primarily R&B, but it's nice to be able to have been raised around different genres and different artists because it's been helpful to me as an artist as I evolve that I can pick little things from the inspiration that they've given me and put into my work.

A little bit, or maybe more than a little bit about you. You obviously you're very keen to kind of, uh, you know, make your music impactful, but also kind of lift people's spirits. I mean, you know, we're going through some pretty tough times. I guess we always go through some tough times as an individual or indeed as a race, if I can put it that way. Uh, you're kind of focusing, if you pardon the pun, on trying to sort of lift people's spirits. Yes.

You know, with the new album, Lover Boy. Lucien, I had a role in this record because my first album obviously really covered the years of my glaucoma diagnosis and even a little bit before that, and that was obviously a much darker time considering everything that I was going through heavily during those early years. But with Loverboy Lucien, I had one rule. I just wanted to write joyful songs that make people feel hopeful and happy, and make them just want to celebrate and believe in the goodness that could be within love and everything you know. Surrounding no negativity was allowed during the making of that record, and I'm glad because it's been such a joyful experience to be able to talk to people like you and to be out there sharing music that just makes people happy, instead of these negative vibes that continue to surround us with, you know, within the world, once we turn off all the happiness.

The great word joyful, isn't it? I love it, it it makes you smile just to say the word yes.

Yes, all the time.

Roy, you also had a fairly serious accident at one stage, didn't you?

I did. Um, so when I got released from my more permanent treatment in the hospital from glaucoma, I had gotten hit by a car about 2019. Yeah. August 2019, I got hit by a car. I was out for a five mile run and this guy couldn't see me. But it was broad daylight and yeah, he he hit. He hit me and I flew on to his minivan and I flew off. And I guess throughout the process, I was dragged and, um, a whole bunch of of a lot of things that just happened all at once during that, that, you know, accident. But just like the glaucoma. I, I'm grateful for the experience that happened after it. It just it's made me embrace life more and cherish things even more, you know, not that I wasn't already when everything went down with my. I had to look at life with a different perspective and getting, you know, being in that accident really shifted things for me and really just gave me more drive to go out there and pursue my music wholeheartedly and make sure that I find a way to use the voice that I've been given to give joy to people who need it the most.

It's a great voice too. I guess it's one of those things where you can kind of either, you know, curl up and feel sorry for yourself or get on with it. You know, do something positive, you know, make make the world a bit more joyful. You said you chose the latter.

I did.

Yeah.

What about in the future, or do you think much, much ahead, I guess. You've got you've got to kind of try and keep, if you like, uh, reinventing yourself, if I can put it that way. Or looking for new angles, new, uh, new ways to kind of express yourself.

I do I, I continue to find new avenues to figure out who I am now. It's interesting because I, I see myself evolving in real time as we're doing this, the single and the new album. Um, I'm in the studio, actually. Next week I'm working on Christmas music, which will be out. Okay. So there's much more to come. I'm always I'm always doing something creative and making sure that I have extra joy to bring to people within, you know, within the near future.

Pardon me being a little bit cheeky, but have you got a favourite Christmas song?

Oh my God, please Come Home For Christmas is one of my all time favourite songs. And then I also really love Miss You Most at Christmas Time by Mariah Carey.

Yeah, yeah, it's.

Pretty pretty much a classic. Have you had a chance to meet some of the artists that? Well, obviously Michael Jackson's no longer with us, but have you had a chance to to meet some of the artists that have influenced you and kind of, uh, you know, sort of, uh, shake hands.

A chance to work with some of their band members. Um, indirectly. So like Loverboy, Lucy and my new album, Justin Timberlake's band plays on On the Record, and Diana Ross's musical director C.C. Thomas is also on the album, um, playing bass. He is obviously very close to Diana Ross. He knew Michael Jackson. Yeah. Um, so it's been nice to work with people that have been indirectly involved with these artists. They've also worked. They've all worked with Bruno Mars and all the all the artists that I list, so it's been nice to be in that realm and hear stories about the artists that inspire me and see how they have impacted my work, and to also have, you know, their musicians be on my records is a huge honor, and I'm so grateful that they want to be a part of my stuff and help me create the worlds that I write to life.

Roy, I'm grateful you've made some time for us today. So your your music is out. People can get it pretty much everywhere and anywhere. Yes. Terrific. And you've also got a website and YouTube channel. So we'll put that information up on our Facebook page. Roy, again, thanks so much for speaking to us. And thank you for being so open and speaking. So, uh, you know, personally about your, uh, story with glaucoma. I'm sure a number of people can identify with it. And may you keep up your a good work and hopefully we can catch up with you again in the future.

Thank you Peter I hope so as well. Thank you so much.

Well that was great fun. That was well and also very, very powerful. That was Roy Lucien Bazor there talking to us. So all the way from the USA. It's great to welcome to the program. David Woodbridge Hill OSB. Hashtag Mr.. Technology to us. We should actually be wearing a different hat. David Woodbridge from Humanware. David, welcome.

I know it sounds funny, doesn't it? I'm still getting used to it myself, so I prefer Mr.. I admit I prefer Mr. Tech Techie anyway, so there we go. I'll. I'll still remain Mr. Techie to people.

All right. We'll talk about how that's come about in a second. But I guess the exciting news from our point of view here in Adelaide especially, is that you're coming to Tech Fest.

I am, and of course I'm going to be bringing the device at the moment, which seems to be the monarch, which is the multiline tactile dynamic braille display. So ten lines of ten lines long in depth and width is 32 characters across. And you can do graphics, um, tactile graphics, equations leading into graphics and of course all the Victor reader stream the word processor, a browser tab and that sort of stuff you can get from Kingsoft because it is running Kingsoft. And of course you can also plug in a little HDMI screen. So a support person or a teacher can see what the student is doing. And you can also plug in a either a Bluetooth or a USB keyboard. So I'm getting really spoilt now because when I normally read on my traditional braille display, which is the Braille B40 x, it's one line of 40 cells going from that to the ten lines of, you know, browser to two characters across. I'm getting really, really spoilt. So it is a really nice braille system actually.

Just on that. I mean, most of us that kind of grew up on conventional braille, if you like, with the conventional braille page. So we kind of read a line and then moved down to the next. Of course, with the Refreshable Braille displays, you got the lines being refreshed. How have you gone kind of adjusting back to the old way, if I can put it that way.

It's actually really pleasant because it actually really does feel like I'm reading a page of Browning. I mean, I know it's only ten lines and, you know, a normal page we always think of, like, you know, 25 lines, 42 characters across. But it is really nice because, you know, I simply read down to the bottom of the quote page, and then I press the page down key or the page up key, and I can go forward or backward ten lines. So rather than getting at the end of the line and pressing the advance button or the previous button, I can just do it that way. The other really cool thing that this actually does, because sometimes, you know, finding your cursor is a bit of a challenge because it's only, you know, in traditional forms it's dots seven and eight. What this one does is it's actually going to command which it takes the line that the cursor is in and puts it at the top of the ten line display. So if you're sitting there and going oh I can, what word is my cursor on? Well, you can take the line up there and and find it. And the other thing you can do is because you can zoom out and zoom in on tactile images. So make it bigger or smaller. You can also do that with the the display itself when you're reading browse. So if you zoom out, as in make things bigger, you can increase the distance between the lines. Um, so you can do like rather than having ten lines on display, you've got eight or 7 or 6. So that means you've got a lot of space in between the lines. And that way. For example, if I just press my zoom out key once, that means I've got a little bit of extra line in between the two lines. So that makes it a little bit easier as I'm getting used to it, or as people are getting used to it to find out where the cursor is.

And you're bringing Annie with you as well, I am.

So that's the Pre-literacy brow device. And I don't know about the Annie, if you can imagine a device that on the top left hand side it is two humongous brow cells, as in really, really, really big dots. And there's two of those to the right of that. You've got a little six brow dot braille display. Um, so six hours long. Below that, you've got a Perkins style keyboard, and all the device is is to teach you how to recognize Braille and read Braille. So it starts off by using the big cells to teach you the dot locations in the layout. And then it sort of slowly replicates that onto the smaller braille display. There's six cell one because that's the size of quote, normal unquote braille. And then it has lots of gaming learning situations where you can play games. And of course, while you're playing those games, you're also learning Braille because this is sort of designed, I guess. Is it a year four or 5 or 6 year old student? And then you can link it up to a learning system where a support teacher or a teacher can set lessons for the student to do, and they also get feedback on what their student's been doing on the system as well. So it's a it's a really good device. And, you know, we start off from talking about the monarch, which is in Australian dollars up to around the $27,000 mark, which I say to people is for organizations, not individuals, because that's just, you know, that's fairly expensive. So museums, art galleries, libraries, that sort of stuff. Um, unis, TAFE schools and so on. But the ante itself is just over $2,000 Australian. So as a free Braille tool, I think it's extremely well priced.

Particularly so for families with their youngsters who are of that age group who might be blind. That's right.

So you don't need to buy, you know, something too horrendously expensive because it's sort of in that particular area of expense where, I mean, I know if I, if I had a blind child, um, and I was thinking, well, you know, $2,000 worth of something that's maybe worth 7 or $8000, I could quite easily imagine myself, you know, having $2,000 or going to the NDIS and saying, hey, guys, look, there's this, there's is this thing that I can probably buy for $8,000, but there's other things that I could probably buy for $2,000. And the NDIS being a beloved NDIS, they want to know about reasonable and cost effectiveness, so they're more likely to go to the cheaper option than the other option. So, but it's just a nice, cute little device. I mean, me as a full brow user, I just love playing it because the actual big dots on the left hand side pop up quite dramatically. They go click and then when you push them down, they make it also really satisfying. Click. So it says, for example, you know, can you press down the dots one and three. So you press them down one and three. And then you get this congratulations. Or you get oops try again. And the you know the fact it's got the the Qwerty keyboard. What am I saying. Because it's got the Braille keyboard on it. It also tells you that. So it's like you know we've learnt the dots one and three on the big dot cells. Now let's try and do that on the same thing on the keyboard. So let's try and press dots one and dot three on the keyboard. So it really covers everything. The one thing that I'm really, really pleased about that got taken out in Australia. If I dare mention the dreaded slate to you, you know what a hands hand frame or a slate is where you've got a right, left, right to left and the old fashioned terms, you had to turn it upside down.

I am old enough, David. Only. Yes.

Congratulations. I think.

That's.

In safely here. I'm only Justin. I have to remember as well. Um, so it had that and that was apparently very big overseas. And I kept saying to the guys overseas, look, no, I don't know anybody in Australia these days who's in the younger generation, uh, who even knows how to use a slate or what it means to people. So luckily in Australia, that's now got this nice little cover over it. I don't even know if it's still there anymore. So it's definitely not there. So you don't have to learn the writing mode of slate. Uh, you can just use the Brailling or typing mode, the input keyboard because yeah, I when I saw this electronic slate with the the stylus, I thought, oh my goodness. No, there's no way I'm going to say to people, would you like to know how to, to to put in braille right to left. And then if you're ready on piece of paper, turn it over and then see what you wrote.

David.

Also the Matisse will be here. We don't speak a lot about it, but worth pointing out that it does exist. And for some people it can be very, very useful. It does.

Because I sometimes forget, you know, because you think of humanware products like the brain and the brain, light touch and all those sort of products. But we do sell the Ipaqs mantis Q40, which is the 40 cell braille display, and the typewriter or the Qwerty keyboard. And for some people, people like to type in, as in a normal quote, normal keyboard and then read back in braille. So I must admit, I'm a far better typist than I am a Braille. Although I must admit now, having used the monarch, uh, my Braille input skills is coming up dramatically. Uh, and the other thing, too, is that I find, like with the monarch now, and even with the Bryant and the mantis, which doesn't have it when I'm using a brow device. I actually don't like using speech because I prefer to read and write when I'm and writing when I'm in the mood, but basically reading without any speech running because I just find, you know, browse, browse. Let's not get it confused with speech. And, you know, of course, as we all say about Braille, um, it's really great for literacy because, you know, we tend to get a bit lazy with our screen reader users. We hear all the words and, um, we don't worry about capitalization and punctuation and everything else until we have to really integrate spelling, interrogate it. But now with Braille, you know, you really get to remember your capitalization, your punctuation, and the thing you think, oh dear, I've just put three spaces in between that, those particular words. So, um, but the man does know, I mean, I, I love it as a, you know, a straight keyboard device for taking your own notes as a smart display or ring it up to a smartphone or a desktop, and it works with everything. You know it works with jaws Nvda VoiceOver, talkback. It basically works with everything. So I'm going to be showing that off at Tech Fest because I just think like like you said, Peter, we sometimes forget that it exists. And I just want to remind people that with all the other cool things around, this is still a really, really cool. Particularly the people that work in the workplace.

And speak about cool things. Are you aware of? Just recently launched a new product.

It's sort of a new product. It's basically we've taken over the master distributorship of a thing called tactile Viewer. And what tactile viewer does is it's a means of producing tactile diagrams, whatever they might be, maps, pictures, etc. and then sending them out to an embosser and producing high quality tactile graphics. And the really cool thing about this tactile viewer is it's actually quite screen reader friendly, so it allows you to create shapes by using keyboard commands. So you've got all your traditional, you know, circle squares, triangles. So with that sort of stuff, you can, you know, you can make a house and a car and all that sort of cool stuff, because it also tells you where on the page you're putting that particular object. So that's actually really, really exciting. So this I think I sort of got announced last week. So I've yet to get my hands on tactile viewer. And it does work with the Juliet, which is from Humanware, but it also works with a wide range of embossers. And um, I just think it's another way of producing tactile material because again, I think, I don't know, I don't know if it's just me recently, but I suddenly thought Braille is not really talked about that much these days. So that's one of the reasons why I'm really keen to get stuck into this Braille stuff, particularly now that I've joined Humanware, because to me it's like, hi guys, we're we're still here. Let's really enjoy Braille. and I think between the monarch and the tactile viewer with the embossers, I think that's just going to really bring it alive, particularly for students and particularly people at university and that sort of stuff who want to do, you know, Stem science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

Very important. David, we're going to talk about how come you're wearing that different. We'll have to save that for another day. And we'll talk about tactile Viewer in more detail as well. So you'll be at Tech Fest, which is Wednesday the 6th of November at Ucity in Franklin Street in the city. So people can certainly register by going to see different Lee's website or calling one (300) 943-0306. It's important that people book just so they can cater for. It was very, very popular last year. It was a new venue, very, very popular. So David, I know a lot of people are looking forward to actually meeting you face to face because they've heard your voice and know a lot about the work that you've done, so it'll be great to meet you. Thanks for speaking to us, and we'll catch up again soon, because there's a lot more things we can talk about, but we'll have to save that for another time.

No worries.

As I said, was a famous person once said. I'll be back.

Okay.

And if people want to find out more from him. Where Humanware. Com is their website or the best? David.

Thank you.

That's David Woodbridge there. The blindness product specialist from Humanware at Techfest November 6th. New city in the City of Adelaide. Whilst we're talking about technology, just see some news through regarding the sale of smartphones in the first six months in Australia this year a lazy 4.4 million were sold. 56% Android, 44% Apple. Rather interesting that. So thanks for those figures that have been sent through. I already describe show of the week. It's coming up well this Saturday evening. 830 SBS Movie Channel Saturday night. It's going to be Saturday Night Fever. Night Fever. Tony Manero has a very ordinary life through the week. But on the weekend, he loves to get out and about with his friends and go to the discotheque. So starring John Travolta rated Ma Saturday Night Fever. 830 this Sunday evening, SBS Movie Channel should be fantastic. If it doesn't put a smile on your face, just get you just grooving around a little bit. I don't think anything will, so check it out with the audio description just to really top it right off. Some birthdays today coming up in fact and birthdays happening Craig Gordon having a birthday. Good on you Craig. A technologist and very much a car enthusiast. So happy birthday to you Craig. Hope things are going well. Vanessa Ranson having a birthday. Very talented teacher and musician. A bit of controversy when she visited Adelaide a couple or so years ago regarding being served alcohol. That made the news, but I guess raised a bit of awareness. I hope life is going really well for you two. Vanessa and Sue Sue-ellen Lovett having a birthday Paralympian and certainly a great fundraiser as well. So Sue Ellen, a very big happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you too. If you're having a birthday, that's it for the program. Sam. Richard, thanks so much for your help. And green, thanks so much for yours. Reminding you that Focal Point is available on your favorite podcast platform. If you like the show and we hope you do, please tell a friend about it. Or 1 or 2 or three. We have always room for many more listeners. On behalf of Philip Napier and a big hello to you, Wendy McDougall listening in. This is Peter Greco saying, be kind to yourselves. Be thoughtful of others or being well. Focus point back at the same time next week. This is focal point on Vision Australia Radio.

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