I've been coming up with some amazing studies recently for the Doctor's Desk episodes and today no different. What is the relationship between a mother's screen time and children's developmental outcomes? That is, if you're with the kids, you're on the phone, you're on the screen, you're on the tablet, you're on the whatever, and the kids are around, does it impact them at all? Does it matter at all? Today? That's what we're going to unpack. Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, I'm so excited to share this study with you. I think this is an absolute dead set cracker.

I've been coming up with some amazing studies recently for the Doctor's Desk episodes and today no different. What is the relationship between a mother's screen time and children's developmental outcomes? That is, if you're with the kids, you're on the phone, you're on the screen, you're on the tablet, you're on the whatever, and the kids are around, does it impact them at all? Does it matter at all? Today? That's what we're going to unpack. Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, I'm so excited to share this study with you. I think this is an absolute dead set cracker.

I'm actually intrigued about this one because I don't.

I'm actually intrigued about this one because I don't.

Think I said it as excited to me as I should. It's a dedit cracker. I'm really excited for this.

Think I said it as excited to me as I should. It's a dedit cracker. I'm really excited for this.

Well, I am intrigued by it because screens play such a significant role in our lives. It's interesting to me to think that our usage would have an impact on our children's development. Yeah.

Well, I am intrigued by it because screens play such a significant role in our lives. It's interesting to me to think that our usage would have an impact on our children's development. Yeah.

So there is a term for it. It's called techno ference and a number of studies over the years have been looking at this idea of techno ference, what happens when you're on the phone, when you're on the screen, laptop, tablet, whatever, to the kids and their development. This was a study that was conducted in Japan. It's been published in a pretty high level journal. It's called Nature Scientific Reports. Nature is one of the world's leading journals. It was published on March twenty four of this year, so it's only been out for a couple of months. Here it is in a nutshell. You've got about just under four thousand mother child pairs. Called it a diad mother child diads, so nearly four thousand of them. The kids are two. And what we've got is essentially mums are filling in the question. They're saying how much screen usage they've been racking up in the presence of their child? Okay, and then the child is being assessed in three domains. We're looking at fine and gross motorabilities. We're talking about cognitive capacity, visual spatial comprehension, and also interpersonal relationships, their socialization and verbal abilities. Okay, how much does mum being on a screen in the presence of kiddo impact child development? In those three areas, and there was a whole, very sophisticated analysis going on here to make sure that we were measuring, or the researchers are measuring exactly what they thought and taking into account a whole lot of other things that could impact so they could statistically control for it. Here's basically what they found. Kids of mums who used digital media for one hour or more in the presence of their child, those kids had lower language and social development outcomes compared with the kids whose mums did not use digital media while they were with them. And for the children of mothers who used digital media for two hours or more, they showed a lower total development quotient compared with those mums who didn't use digital media. In short, the wrap up, the summary of this is that when mums use digital media for more than an hour a day with their children, it's negatively associated with language development in their two year olds, and use for more than two hours is negatively associated with global development. It has a significant impact across the board in terms of all developmental facets and aspects, at least that we'll look at in this study.

So there is a term for it. It's called techno ference and a number of studies over the years have been looking at this idea of techno ference, what happens when you're on the phone, when you're on the screen, laptop, tablet, whatever, to the kids and their development. This was a study that was conducted in Japan. It's been published in a pretty high level journal. It's called Nature Scientific Reports. Nature is one of the world's leading journals. It was published on March twenty four of this year, so it's only been out for a couple of months. Here it is in a nutshell. You've got about just under four thousand mother child pairs. Called it a diad mother child diads, so nearly four thousand of them. The kids are two. And what we've got is essentially mums are filling in the question. They're saying how much screen usage they've been racking up in the presence of their child? Okay, and then the child is being assessed in three domains. We're looking at fine and gross motorabilities. We're talking about cognitive capacity, visual spatial comprehension, and also interpersonal relationships, their socialization and verbal abilities. Okay, how much does mum being on a screen in the presence of kiddo impact child development? In those three areas, and there was a whole, very sophisticated analysis going on here to make sure that we were measuring, or the researchers are measuring exactly what they thought and taking into account a whole lot of other things that could impact so they could statistically control for it. Here's basically what they found. Kids of mums who used digital media for one hour or more in the presence of their child, those kids had lower language and social development outcomes compared with the kids whose mums did not use digital media while they were with them. And for the children of mothers who used digital media for two hours or more, they showed a lower total development quotient compared with those mums who didn't use digital media. In short, the wrap up, the summary of this is that when mums use digital media for more than an hour a day with their children, it's negatively associated with language development in their two year olds, and use for more than two hours is negatively associated with global development. It has a significant impact across the board in terms of all developmental facets and aspects, at least that we'll look at in this study.

So a handful of years ago, research was heavily focused on children's screen time and especially in those young years, and how that impacts their development. And now we find ourselves here talking about mums specifically or parents in general being on their screens in the presence of the children and the impact it has. I'm curious to know how the data compares well.

So a handful of years ago, research was heavily focused on children's screen time and especially in those young years, and how that impacts their development. And now we find ourselves here talking about mums specifically or parents in general being on their screens in the presence of the children and the impact it has. I'm curious to know how the data compares well.

It all kind of shows the same thing, and there's I wasn't expecting that question because of when we were prepping before. I thought we were going in a different direction. But there is a whole lot of data that shows that there's a coral between mother's screen usage and children's screen usage. So it seems that mums who use their phones particularly or the devices particularly in the presence of their children are much more likely to also give their kids a device to use or allow them to use the device as well. They're just less restrictive around device usage. And there is a relationship between child use and developmental outcomes generally, so when kids are using devices, when kids are on screens, we see the same negative relationship. That is, as device usage and screen usage goes up, developmental out comes decrease, they become worse. So it works both ways. When mums are on the devices or when kids are on the devices, we get worse developmental outcomes for children.

It all kind of shows the same thing, and there's I wasn't expecting that question because of when we were prepping before. I thought we were going in a different direction. But there is a whole lot of data that shows that there's a coral between mother's screen usage and children's screen usage. So it seems that mums who use their phones particularly or the devices particularly in the presence of their children are much more likely to also give their kids a device to use or allow them to use the device as well. They're just less restrictive around device usage. And there is a relationship between child use and developmental outcomes generally, so when kids are using devices, when kids are on screens, we see the same negative relationship. That is, as device usage and screen usage goes up, developmental out comes decrease, they become worse. So it works both ways. When mums are on the devices or when kids are on the devices, we get worse developmental outcomes for children.

So why is it that my screen usage while I'm in the presence of my child has such a negative impact on their developmental realities?

So why is it that my screen usage while I'm in the presence of my child has such a negative impact on their developmental realities?

So I would say that it's not just for screen usage. I'd say if you're preoccupied, because it affects your ability to be responsive, effects your ability to pay attention, it affects your ability to be warm and engaged with your child and language and interactions like a tennis match. There's that serve and return. The baby makes some sound and then your eyes light up and you say, it sounds like you just said puppy, Or your child tries to engage with you, or wants to play a game, or asks some food, and you engage in response. So that serve return, which is what usually developmental psychologists are researching and talking about. It's harmed, it's reduced, it's interfered with. When we have got something else that's occupying this. Once upon a time, if we're sitting there reading a book or a magazine, it's just much easier to tear yourself away from that than it is from a screen. The screens are so darn good at keeping us completely connected and completely focused on the screen. So fundamentally, what it comes down to is parents are less There may be more to it than this, but I think that the real core of it his parents are less able to engage with their kids, whether they know it or not, because they're caught up in the screen.

So I would say that it's not just for screen usage. I'd say if you're preoccupied, because it affects your ability to be responsive, effects your ability to pay attention, it affects your ability to be warm and engaged with your child and language and interactions like a tennis match. There's that serve and return. The baby makes some sound and then your eyes light up and you say, it sounds like you just said puppy, Or your child tries to engage with you, or wants to play a game, or asks some food, and you engage in response. So that serve return, which is what usually developmental psychologists are researching and talking about. It's harmed, it's reduced, it's interfered with. When we have got something else that's occupying this. Once upon a time, if we're sitting there reading a book or a magazine, it's just much easier to tear yourself away from that than it is from a screen. The screens are so darn good at keeping us completely connected and completely focused on the screen. So fundamentally, what it comes down to is parents are less There may be more to it than this, but I think that the real core of it his parents are less able to engage with their kids, whether they know it or not, because they're caught up in the screen.

This research, it sounds like it's specifically dealing with handheld devices, but I am interested in understanding and knowing whether or not having the TV on, say, for instance, in the background, has the same kind of impact on our children's development. I grew up in a home where the TV was pretty much on all the time. There was always still is it still is?

This research, it sounds like it's specifically dealing with handheld devices, but I am interested in understanding and knowing whether or not having the TV on, say, for instance, in the background, has the same kind of impact on our children's development. I grew up in a home where the TV was pretty much on all the time. There was always still is it still is?

Yeah? Yeah?

Yeah? Yeah?

Yeah, So how does that impact kiz okay?

Yeah, So how does that impact kiz okay?

So, first a quick clarification. In this particular study the screen usage, they were just looking at digital media use, so we're talking about laptops, tablets, and phones. It's not phone only. To move on to the broader question of TV, this study didn't look at television specifically. It was only looking at those smart, handheld or mobile type of devices. The research around TV is now decades old, although TV is changing because it's becoming increasingly interactive, smart TVs and so on my take on it is this, if you've got the opportunity to turn it off, turn it off, the background noise becomes a distraction. There's also the increased stimulation, and so that can reduce children's capacity to pay attention to one thing. There's no such thing as multitasking. All we do is dilute their attention on things that matter, like looking into your eyes or reading the book or playing with the game. Fundamentally, as well, you'll find that children who are sitting in front of a TV, or if the TV is even on, you're going to get less physical activity, sleep quality goes down, there's more noise, and there's actually some really interesting research out there that looks at just the impact of noise in the environment and well being. And we're designed to be in quiet places, so when there's always something going on, the brain's being stimulated, but there's also a stress response. It's stressful to have the screens going, it's stressful to have NonStop music, non stop talk, NonStop chatter, NonStop background noise. All of that adds up to create a level of stress in us and our children. It amplifies what's going on in the nervous system, so I would generally say keep it off. However, however, I will say this, if you need to take a break, whack the TV on. It's way better than giving them an iPad or an iPhone or something like that. Why, Because the TV has defined end points, you can turn it off at the end of the episode. The TV has narratives and storylines. We talked about this last week on the podcast when we were talking about the Jonathan Hate research. And the TV doesn't have the same stimulatory impact that devices have when the kids are playing games. There's just it's like a little mini casino for your child's brain with all the excitatory stimulatory lottery sounding whizzes and pops and bells and whistles and opportunities to win. And this is not what's good for kids' brains. So at least if they're watching an episode of Blue or if they're watching something on ABC Kids, they get to relax, developed some memphy, meld into a storyline. You don't want too much of it, but it's better than it's better than the alternative.

So, first a quick clarification. In this particular study the screen usage, they were just looking at digital media use, so we're talking about laptops, tablets, and phones. It's not phone only. To move on to the broader question of TV, this study didn't look at television specifically. It was only looking at those smart, handheld or mobile type of devices. The research around TV is now decades old, although TV is changing because it's becoming increasingly interactive, smart TVs and so on my take on it is this, if you've got the opportunity to turn it off, turn it off, the background noise becomes a distraction. There's also the increased stimulation, and so that can reduce children's capacity to pay attention to one thing. There's no such thing as multitasking. All we do is dilute their attention on things that matter, like looking into your eyes or reading the book or playing with the game. Fundamentally, as well, you'll find that children who are sitting in front of a TV, or if the TV is even on, you're going to get less physical activity, sleep quality goes down, there's more noise, and there's actually some really interesting research out there that looks at just the impact of noise in the environment and well being. And we're designed to be in quiet places, so when there's always something going on, the brain's being stimulated, but there's also a stress response. It's stressful to have the screens going, it's stressful to have NonStop music, non stop talk, NonStop chatter, NonStop background noise. All of that adds up to create a level of stress in us and our children. It amplifies what's going on in the nervous system, so I would generally say keep it off. However, however, I will say this, if you need to take a break, whack the TV on. It's way better than giving them an iPad or an iPhone or something like that. Why, Because the TV has defined end points, you can turn it off at the end of the episode. The TV has narratives and storylines. We talked about this last week on the podcast when we were talking about the Jonathan Hate research. And the TV doesn't have the same stimulatory impact that devices have when the kids are playing games. There's just it's like a little mini casino for your child's brain with all the excitatory stimulatory lottery sounding whizzes and pops and bells and whistles and opportunities to win. And this is not what's good for kids' brains. So at least if they're watching an episode of Blue or if they're watching something on ABC Kids, they get to relax, developed some memphy, meld into a storyline. You don't want too much of it, but it's better than it's better than the alternative.

So I find this whole scenario quite intriguing because at the heart of it, kids are copycats, right that's how they learn. So they hear something and they repeat it often. I think about in my childhood Sesame Street, play school. They were the places where I learned my ABC's, I learned how to count I before I was even at school. Right, And we're having a conversation about the fact that our children's development is delayed by being exposed to these things, and I kind of just want to push back on it a little bit, because, like I remember, I remember when my youngest sister was only about three, she went and was babysat by a friend, and she came home and out of nowhere, at the dinner table, she let the F bomb far out, far out, yes, and we all were like, what the heck. Anyway, as it turned out, the people who had baby sat her had the TV on and it has worn, and literally she heard it and it took my parents months to eradicate that from her vocapu very. And so here's my thinking. It's like kids hear things and they repeat them, which would actually, in my mind help language development, but this study is suggesting that it actually doesn't.

So I find this whole scenario quite intriguing because at the heart of it, kids are copycats, right that's how they learn. So they hear something and they repeat it often. I think about in my childhood Sesame Street, play school. They were the places where I learned my ABC's, I learned how to count I before I was even at school. Right, And we're having a conversation about the fact that our children's development is delayed by being exposed to these things, and I kind of just want to push back on it a little bit, because, like I remember, I remember when my youngest sister was only about three, she went and was babysat by a friend, and she came home and out of nowhere, at the dinner table, she let the F bomb far out, far out, yes, and we all were like, what the heck. Anyway, as it turned out, the people who had baby sat her had the TV on and it has worn, and literally she heard it and it took my parents months to eradicate that from her vocapu very. And so here's my thinking. It's like kids hear things and they repeat them, which would actually, in my mind help language development, but this study is suggesting that it actually doesn't.

Not exactly the language development that you want. Okay, So there are a couple of really easy things that I can respond to here that are based in the very best research evidence. First of all, children do repeat what they hear. However, they are much more likely, especially when they're young. They're much more likely to repeat what they're hearing in a real person conversation rather than what's on the screen. Even when they do repeat what's on this screen, though, they don't necessarily have the context or the understanding of the vocabulary, and that part of my system partly explains what's going on there. Research evidence really clearly does say though that while the TV might reinforce things that they have been learning, it's not a good teacher. So, yes, you mentioned that you were listening to Sesame Street or play school and you learned your ABCS or your accounting. You probably didn't actually learn it there. You learned it as you were reading books with your parents, or as you were spending time with friends, grandparents, whoever, whatever, at preschool, and then when you see it and hear it on Sesame Street, you have that reinforced. Moreover, here we are in our forties and fifties and we're reflecting back and saying I learned it on Sesame Street. The reality is we don't know where we learned it. We can't remember exactly where the best learning took place for us when we were living forty plus years ago, so our ability to accurately recall where we learned is minimized. And the research evidence certainly indicates that TV is a poor teacher relative to any other option that's out there. So if we sum it up, these parents in this study from Japan, the more that they're on their screens, the more they diminish their children's positive developmental outcomes. I think that's a really important take home message.

Not exactly the language development that you want. Okay, So there are a couple of really easy things that I can respond to here that are based in the very best research evidence. First of all, children do repeat what they hear. However, they are much more likely, especially when they're young. They're much more likely to repeat what they're hearing in a real person conversation rather than what's on the screen. Even when they do repeat what's on this screen, though, they don't necessarily have the context or the understanding of the vocabulary, and that part of my system partly explains what's going on there. Research evidence really clearly does say though that while the TV might reinforce things that they have been learning, it's not a good teacher. So, yes, you mentioned that you were listening to Sesame Street or play school and you learned your ABCS or your accounting. You probably didn't actually learn it there. You learned it as you were reading books with your parents, or as you were spending time with friends, grandparents, whoever, whatever, at preschool, and then when you see it and hear it on Sesame Street, you have that reinforced. Moreover, here we are in our forties and fifties and we're reflecting back and saying I learned it on Sesame Street. The reality is we don't know where we learned it. We can't remember exactly where the best learning took place for us when we were living forty plus years ago, so our ability to accurately recall where we learned is minimized. And the research evidence certainly indicates that TV is a poor teacher relative to any other option that's out there. So if we sum it up, these parents in this study from Japan, the more that they're on their screens, the more they diminish their children's positive developmental outcomes. I think that's a really important take home message.

All right, Well, it sounds a little bit doom and gloom right now, So what are we going to do about this?

All right, Well, it sounds a little bit doom and gloom right now, So what are we going to do about this?

I just want to pick you up on that doom and gloom. Pretty Much every conversation we have about screens when they're not used intentionally, creatively, constructively and in moderation, the story is doom and gloom, particularly when it comes to our kids. So the take home message, I mean, we are about real parenting solutions every day on our podcast. The take home messages to the extent that it's possible keep screens away from your face, away from your eyes, and away from your kid's eyes when they're growing up. It's really that simple. They will simply do better when they are engaged in analogue, person to person, face to face conversations. Last year, we talked about a study that just fascinated me where kids were having zoom conversations or face to face conversations with their mum, and their brain waves were being measured and there was nine times activation, nine times the activation in a face to face conversation compared to a zoom call. If that doesn't tell you that screens are a hollow imitation of the real thing of real life and are therefore not even nearly moving towards optimal development for our kids, I don't know what else will. I just I think this conversation is fascinating. It so important. That's why I keep on digging up these brand new, increasingly compelling studies that point in one direction, and that is minimize our kids screen access. We'll link, as we always do, to this doctor's desk study in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. We hope that you get heaps out of these podcasts and they're useful. If you've liked what we've talked about, please share the podcast with a friend you can thought it really easily by clicking a couple of buttons. And I just know that our podcast episodes can help people to make their families happier. We really appreciate the work of Justin rule On from Bridge Media. He is our producer and our show notes and other research assistants is from Mmhammond's. If you'd like more information and resources to make your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com. Do do you

I just want to pick you up on that doom and gloom. Pretty Much every conversation we have about screens when they're not used intentionally, creatively, constructively and in moderation, the story is doom and gloom, particularly when it comes to our kids. So the take home message, I mean, we are about real parenting solutions every day on our podcast. The take home messages to the extent that it's possible keep screens away from your face, away from your eyes, and away from your kid's eyes when they're growing up. It's really that simple. They will simply do better when they are engaged in analogue, person to person, face to face conversations. Last year, we talked about a study that just fascinated me where kids were having zoom conversations or face to face conversations with their mum, and their brain waves were being measured and there was nine times activation, nine times the activation in a face to face conversation compared to a zoom call. If that doesn't tell you that screens are a hollow imitation of the real thing of real life and are therefore not even nearly moving towards optimal development for our kids, I don't know what else will. I just I think this conversation is fascinating. It so important. That's why I keep on digging up these brand new, increasingly compelling studies that point in one direction, and that is minimize our kids screen access. We'll link, as we always do, to this doctor's desk study in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. We hope that you get heaps out of these podcasts and they're useful. If you've liked what we've talked about, please share the podcast with a friend you can thought it really easily by clicking a couple of buttons. And I just know that our podcast episodes can help people to make their families happier. We really appreciate the work of Justin rule On from Bridge Media. He is our producer and our show notes and other research assistants is from Mmhammond's. If you'd like more information and resources to make your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com. Do do you