Mm from grandmothers who whispered in their baby girl in two fathers on dimly lit street corners, instructing young soldiers to always keep their eyes open. You be queen, you were fired. You will pass through centuries on the hands of your daughters. They called you wisdom. Proverbs on the backs of diamond eyed school children who growing into hymnals recited by amethyst holding urban philosophers who recited neighborhood commandments out of the windows of restored Alchemedo chariots. To keep the warmth of their blood, be wise, be smart, being black, Opal Brown courts bloodstone and prayer, be every form of Jim se King told, scribe, scribe, told son, son, told wife, wife told her daughter, and daughter told the as this is. And the ancestors told me that you would come to give wisdom. Thousands. They said you would come, Dropping Dropping Jim. Welcome to another episode of the Dropping Gems podcast. Thank you for being here, Thank you for joining me, Thank you for all the ratings and reviews and d m s and all of the things. I'm your host, Debbie Brown. This episode I have been looking forward to so much, and I've been looking forward to specifically having a conversation like this for so long. Today on the show, in just a few moments, I will bring on our special guest, the one and only actor, director humanitarian Nate Parker. And there's an incredible film that is out and available now called American Skin. I know a lot of you listening have already seen this film. It's really taken the Internet by storm. There are so many expansive conversations happening everywhere within our own homes, at the barbershops, within our communities around this film. And I had I first had the chance, the opportunity, the gift of seeing this film about a year ago. I screened it in Hollywood, and I just remember so distinctly leaving that screening and just sitting in the car and needing to breathe and needing to really calm myself. It brought up so much, especially as a mother, especially as a boy mom, and it really for me further intensified the internal dialogue that I have with myself about black mail, pain and all of the barriers that black men in the world, men of color in the world, um have in front of their own access to themselves and their own ability to deeply experience their own love and and something we speak to quite a bit on this show. You know, we really get in the thick of trauma, we get in the thick of our ability to self heal and self love and self accept and you know, so often I I'm in thought with myself around the dynamic of our family structures and how to for me, how to really create generational change and generational impact through relaying the foundation of the way that we feel about ourselves and starting that within our homes. And it's something that I really intentionally do with my son, and it's something that is probably the driving force of my life. My utmost priority in my household is that my son knows his own love. He will feel his mother's love. Yes, I will engulf that baby all day, but him feeling his own love and him knowing his own worth of existence before gets into the world is so important to me. So when I saw this breathtaking film that really speaks to the complex layers of a black man's ability or lack thereof, to a moat to feel, to grieve, to be treated with reverence and respect, it floored me. So without further ado, I'm really excited to bring forward the special guest of Today, So welcoming to the show, the incomparable Nate Parker. Nate Parker is a director, actor, screenwriter, producer, humanitarian. He's focused much of his life and career on addressing social injustice and creating content that addresses disparities from marginalized communities around the world. He's known for his roles in the Denzel Washington directed film The Great Debaters, The Spike Lee Joint, Red Hook, Summer Beyond the Lights, and his role as slave in Erectionist Leader not Turner in Birth of a Nation, which he also directed. I had the great pleasure of being able to become friends with Nate over the last few years. And I don't even know if you know this story, Nate, but I will never forget the first time I saw the movie poster for Birth of a Nation. It literally stopped me in my tracks, like I felt it through my soul. And I remember I was sitting I remember exactly where I was. I was sitting in my living room. I was watching TV, and all of a sudden, the movie poster appeared on screen and there was a commercial and I was like, what the fun huh? And I was just blown away, and I was like, I have to see this film. I have to see this film. And so I feel like I was calling the film to me um and it was really funny because I was, you know, we have some mutual friends in the industry, and I was like, you saw an advance screening. I need to see this. I need an advance screening. And I was traveling. I was at this symposium and I got a call. At the time the radio station that I was at, I was in l A, but I was working in Houston. I got a phone call and they said, hey, we want to send you to do the press junket to cover Birth of a Nation and to go to Canada. But you need to leave tonight. And I was in the middle of this whole other thing. I was it was like an eleven hour flight. It was insane, but I just said, yep, I'm going, Yes, yep. So I went to cold Toronto with my l A clothes. I get there, I see the screener at night and I just started bawling. I just started crying. And I remember I walked outside and it was raining and I called our friend Punch, and he and I stayed on the phone for two hours and I walked in the rain and we were just talking about the film and talking about you and talking about the world. And then I had the amazing opportunity um to connect with you and meet you and you know, learn from you and see your genius. So I'm so excited to have you on this show. Oh my goodness, are you kidding? I wouldn't miss this for anything. And I didn't know you left that night before I know. We we met in Toronto and Punch reached out to me, Who's Who's such a great brother, uh, and he had such great things to say about you and just connecting with you that day. I remember it was like a rooftop um like restaurant or something, and we talked for a long time. And and it's crazy because you know, when you mentioned the poster and you mentioned the film, you know, art that is incendi area seems to get people's attention a lot quicker and thin that are safe, So it felt like the I'm so glad the poster was what it was because it feels like the nature of it may have even been responsible and been responsible for our connection. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think you know it would what really struck me about that film, At least for me and my purview. It was the first time I had seen something um not just so bold, but it was like a reclaiming of power. It was changing the dynamic of how we viewed ourselves and how we told these stories. You know, all all the films that were winning Oscars up until then, they were the slave films. They were the films that didn't have you know, much to them, or it was all about liberation coming from an outside source. You know. It was the first time that it really felt like there was an unlocking of this inner well, you know. And I credit this film as being such a catalyst in in a beautiful subtle way for some of the conversations and some of the uprisings that happened afterwards. It really, I feel, with such a powerful reprogramming. Thank you for saying that. You know, when I was doing my research around Nat Turner, what I found in my research is that this particular insurrection was responsible in many ways for the Civil War. You know. There there there was a lot of conversation around what to do with the slave problem. You know, there was the issue of taxes, there was the issue of property. There was the issue of preserving the union. Um, but there was the issue of insurrection in that Turner wasn't the only insurrectionists. There were plenty of people who were volting. There were there were women who were volting, were revolting by poisoning food. Uh, there were There's so many, so much resistance that was happening that is undocumented that you have to dig for because it speaks to the stripping of humanity in ways that it has never been done in the history of the world. You know, people like to compare slavery to other forms and different you know, time periods, of different generations and different empires, but never has there been slavery like what is what has taken place in the United States of America. And I think a lot of that has perpetuated the brokenness, uh that we that we are struggling through and the trauma because we won't admit that we won't. I mean, you gotta think think a bit like this. They literally changed the laws in this country. So if someone was born from uh, you know, a relationship of of not we want to call it a relationship. If a slave owner raped one of his his property, they changed it so she would that that that child would take on the lineage of the mother and not the father. It's never been done in history. Why did they do that so they can expand their property? Why because they stopped the mid Atlantic try a slave trade. So these are things that again without honest confrontation, without truth, they can't be any healing. You know, we we want to we talk about, you know, addressing trauma, but we really don't want to talk about all of the infrastructure, the things that have brought us to this place. And and so with the film specifically, and a lot of things that I do, I try to, you know, lay bare the truth behind who we are and what we have been as a nation. Yeah wow, Yeah, we're going to get into the film in just a moment, but somewhere really like to start. Is obviously very devastating year, But a few things happened that I find to be the hidden treasure of it all, which is really fully and more deeply shedding light on specifically black mail pain um. And you know, really the beginning of that for me was when Kobe passed. Really, um, I think that energy lent itself to an opening that hadn't happened yet, Right, like we know the mail connection to sports, we know, um, some of the ways that that has been such a community builder for black men and also a space of a mint celebration and and survival yeah yeah, and generational growth and expansion. And you know, it's just such a big piece of the male puzzle and the male psyche. And so for that to happen in a hero to be fallen in such a way, like an action figure, really to be fallen in such a way, and it a child involved in such a blow. So I say, let to say, you know, it really felt like that was um as tragic as it was almost a blessing because I think it ripened in opening for the hearts of men for what we were about to walk into, which is the pandemic that changed everything, and also the social injustice that changed really the scope of the conversations we were having and the things that we're doing. George Floyd being killed the way that he was, conversations around black vulnerability started to happen. And you know, when you think of yourself as a black man who was able to rise in such an exquisite way and then able to come in and be of service to the world, with your creative genius and your creative fire. How did you begin to cultivate that in yourself? Where did that healing begin? Where did you come into a place of being able to stand in your full being and tell these stories? I think it's it's undoubtedly faith. Um. I think that there there has to be acknowledgement of the Creator and anything that we think that we're called to do. Uh for me specifically anyway, um, because you know, just as a human being, Um, the brokenness that you're inherit, you know, the generational trauma that you're inherit. There's so many things, and being a black man, being born in this country, Uh, just waking up every day you're face, You're carrying baggage. Just being born, you're carrying baggage. I can't think of a time where I didn't know that I was an underdog, just as a person with brown skin, you know. And I think that when you're when you're operating under that pretext, if you don't have mind, body and spirit in order, uh, you may find yourself in a situation of a perpetual depression. You know, because you'll see you know, because you know, faith is believing in the thing that is not seen right, the idea that yes, I was born for a reason, I was created for a reason. Yes that I believe there's a destiny before in my life. Yes I believe that there were gifts that have been given to me. Yes I believe by stand on the shoulders of giants that have come before me. Now, how will I pull out of me all the things that can institutionalize that support and and and laser focus it on something that can create a legacy for myself. So I take that back to to faith is just knowing that, like the Lord has put me in a position one to do something that will will change the order for my children, uh and my children's children. Um. And he's giving me you know, and in some ways a playbook, you know what I mean. I think that the whole conversation around faith has become this weird and awkward, um monetized, politicized thing. But we've often I feel like we've forgotten the vertical relationship that we're supposed to have with the Creator, you know what I mean? And as as a Christian man, it's like, Okay, well, if I'm gonna kind of step into this space, and what does that mean for me, you know, what are my action is going to be? How am I going to live for other people? How am I gonna serve? I try not to look at how I might have, you know, pulled myself up and answer the call. But really, how can I be a servant to those who I know are being monologue marginalized? Why I know are constantly being um uh pushed to the to the outside of society, or or being told that their brokenness is their own fault, or being told that there's their symptoms are not indicative of a bigger sickness, but it's just indicative of their failures. Um. So I think the more I lean into faith and service, the more capable I am to stand up to adversity and to push through uh anything that may feel like an obstacle to get to what I think might be you know, the destiny that is that has been put before me. Something we really speak to a lot on this show. UM that's a driving force in my life is really declone de colonializing wellness, um, but also being really clear about the colonial station that has taken place within how we feel about ourselves, how we even seek help, right, like the colonialization of therapy of mental health. Like as these mental health conversations are being unpacked and we're really trying to empower the bipop community to seek out these services. It's so important because the piece of the piece of the puzzle that is not spoken to in these haling spaces is the complex post traumatic stress. So that is everything else that lays as a burden on top of you, aside from the spiritual curriculum you entered Earth for as you are in your journey, as you are seeking God, as you are seeking self. And you know what what does that look like for you? You know, how do you fill your cup? How do you refuel as a black man in this world, specifically in these times, as a father and as someone that knows they are called to show up in service? Well, I think, you know a lot of it has to do with you know, prayer, A lot has to do with UM. So into the things that I think are bigger than me. You know, my children have five daughters, you know UM. And you know I have my nephew that I adopted. And every day I'm asking myself, you know, when I'm laying when I'm you know, on my death bed, and I'm surrounded by all the people that I've been connected to, What will what will they think about me in my contribution? You know because at that at that moment, all the fear, all the anxiety, all the things that or obstacles when when when you were living through the moment won't matter. The only thing will matter if you have your receipts. You know. I always found it interesting when people, you know, we talked about which was a pivotal year for this country, so many things happened, and talking to people who were during that time and asking them what were you doing in that time? It's funny because there's only one answer, right, Like, like I was serving, I was serving the people. I was in the streets, I was making noise and I was raising hell. But the people that were doing nothing, that is something they can't undo. So I think that there's a tremendous responsibility that I think pushes me to find and create space for myself to grow, Like you said, to fill my cup. You know, it's like what am I gonna do today? What am I gonna write today? Um? You know, because I was making money won't be an answer when your kids ask you what you were doing? So um, you know, a lot of it has to do with my children, you know, and as they grow up, they're inheriting a world that they did not ask for. You know something, my two year old, you know, we had a conversation with me one time and she said something along the lines of, you know, this is crazy because I didn't ask to be here, you know, And it wasn't in a way that was negative, but it just stayed with like, man, like we bring people. We bring children to this world, often selfishly because we want a kid, or because we we want that in our lives, or we've we've we've kind of mapped out this direction we want to go, not recognizing that we're literally bringing children into the world that and not asking to be to be here, and then we're expecting them to be able to operate in a way that is healthy. Uh that a way is that in a way that's sustainable, in a way that they will be able to hopefully, uh, bring positivity and light to their children. But they're all assumptions, right, They're all assumptions. It's like, Oh, they're gonna be are I'm gonna kid, They're gonna grow up, They're gonna do that the I'm gonna raise them, I'm gonna rear them, but the end of the day where they're literally inheriting the world that we're giving them. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know that's so interesting. And I think, UM, the way I look at parenting, especially parenting a black children, it you have to be so thoughtful, you have to be so thoughtful in what type of foundation you want to instill in them. Like for me, the leading force of my motherhood is having a son that has access to joy. I want my child to feel joyful and enthusiastic about himself and about the world, you know. And so when I think of like some of the fibers of UM really recalibrating how we experience our children are retraining ourselves into how we experience ourselves. You know, no matter what's happening, my son will be greeted with authentic joyfulness from me. And you know, the way our nights and is all in service to prayer and affirmation. And you know, even though kids don't know all the words, it's like expanding their emotional language of what their feelings are and how they experience themselves. So like with quests, it's like, you know, every night, you are so loved, you are worthy, And then kids hold onto the words, you know, and he starts running around the house. I'm worthy, I'm worthy, you know. But giving them access, you know, for me, especially with black children, we teach them how to feel about themselves. So we have to make sure that that initial feeling that they walk out of the door for the first time with entering this really complex, complicated, deeply unfair world is a cultivation of love for themselves, of seeing God in themselves. Definitely is what you said is very very true. You said the word retraining, and I think I think you're absolutely right. Uh So often we forget that they're being programmed. Every time they they they open their eyes, they're seeing something that is that is planting a seed in their spirit. And I think if we're not counter programming um, then then we are positioning them to fail. Because everything that they will learn about themselves from mainstream America, from and we can talk about that, but everything that every image, every reflection they'll see of themselves unfortunately teaches them about their inferiority, you know. So it's like affirmation is critical and and and I cannot stress the importance of what you said, because at that young age, you know, it's interesting because it's like I talked to someone and they said, um, sturing an interview and they're all blurned together. But someone asked, you know, when do you start talking to your kids about that? You know, um? And it makes me think about, you know, a few of my Jewish brothers and sisters and how they say, you know, as soon as you, you know, are old enough to comprehend, they're telling you about your history, about your position in the world, your relationship with God. And I'm very much in line with that. I think that for better and for worst, they need to know. You know. My my, my a ten year old daughter, and we talked about race in a very real way, you know, because she she will intersect with it very soon. A lot of times, like when I first time I was called you know, the N word. I didn't go home and say mom and dad, you know I was called and this is it was really even at the young age it happened. I was and I'm from Virginia, so it was very young, but it was really like, Okay, I felt the energy of that what is wrong with me? That I would be called a name that would make me feel so bad that I don't even really know what it means, you know. So then when I got around to tell him my mother, it was okay, let's have that talk. But I wish i'd known earlier, you know, so I could have met it with affirmation. You know, I couldn't understood. You know, you don't understand ignorance in a in a way way that is intentional when you're you know, seven six, you don't really understand it. So these conversations are critical to our survival. It's life. God, yeah, so powerful, I asked um, a psychologist friend of mine, once, I'm really fascinated by trauma and mechanisms for healing. Um and I asked her, why is it that we each, inherently, as children, interpret anything that happens to us that we don't understand is being unworthy or somehow being less than or somehow being not shame. Well, you know, it's interesting the way that a child's developing brain operates is She said this quote to me that shook me. She said, a child must blame or it will go insane. Because when you're a child, the only God you can tangibly understand is your parents they are the extent of your whole world and whatever access however their lives look whatever they give you allowance to. And so if you were to believe that something was perhaps wrong or unhealed about your parents or about your immediate structure in the world, you would be in a constant state of fight or flight. As a child, you would die, you would have a heart attack. As a kid, you could not be able to take on the load without emotional language development, all of the things that something is wrong with the world. So you start training yourself to believe that something is wrong with you, and then you layer and you layer and you layer. Um And I think that's so indicative of the black experience and some of the things that you really so powerfully beautifully explore in your films. It's like, what are all the other residues that existing aside from this moment we're seeing on screen or happening with the characters. M M. Yeah. There's a there's a great book called Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. If you get a chance, check it out. It's about drum Joey de Gran and she talks about that just how so much of the trauma that we passed down to our children. Uh is not It doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from very specific programming for survival, you know. And she speaks about how oftentimes the way our our parents will talk to us about you know, uh, when they're talking to other people, you know, um, how's your how's your son doing, how's your daughter doing? Man? He he just you know, he's gonna figure it out who he's not. You know, Like this's kind of like there's there we don't kind of speak entitlement and privilege in to our kids. It's kind of like m we we we oftentimes slide them then don't know it, but it's something. But it's because it's what was what happened to us, you know, you know, and and and but we can't bring our parents because that's not the route either. That's still the branch. We go down to the root. Um And this book she talks about how the plantation, you never knew if your child would be taken away for their gifts, you know, or you never knew that they would be taken by an overseer for their looks. Um, So there was this constant uh, this this this blanket you're covering your children with that to others, denegrated them so they would lose interest, and it was done to protect them. And it's like, man, you know, like even you know, beating your kids for touching something at a store or getting too far away from you, these are all things that the roots are deeply set in plant the plantation, and so unpacking that allows us to kind of open our open ourselves to a new a of exploring relationships with our children. And sometimes for me, it's meant allowing them to mess up, allowing them to fail, allowing them to make messes, allowing them to tear a store up, um, and being okay with the fact that they're just learning the world and the way the white kids do. Yeah, and and and and and and I told this story once about being in a store with my mother, and uh I grew up. My mom was like, stay close to me, single parent household. You know, my dad passed away when I was young, so she was like, stay very close to me, don't move, don't touch anything. Um. And I remember seeing this this mother with her little white son walking down the aisle and he had his hand out on the cereal aisle and he was walking and all he was about ten steps behind. All the cereal was just crashing on the floor, all of it. It was just like it was fun and funny and and I remember my heart to start beating so fast because I thought to myself, he's gonna get a beaten, like someone's gonna pick him up and beat him. And within an inch of the like right, my trauma and his mother, whatever she was doing, I know she could hear, but she just turned around. I didn't even look at the sea, and Graham was like, come on, And I looked up at my mom, like, will you beat that kid? Like so he needs to know. But I was projecting, even as a child, my trauma onto that kid and that experience. But now as now as a as a parent, I have learned to you know, chew the meats without the bones, you know what I mean, and raise all things that I think we're helpful about my upbringing in the way I was raised, and kind of be okay with letting some of the other stuff go and stopping the cycle, not because anyone was trying to hurt me, but because those tapes, those old tapes don't apply to me any more. I'm in control now, this is this is my family. You know, this is my this is my uh approach to parenting in a way that is healthy and that inspires a certain level of privilege and entire of it. Yeah, yeah, I want my child to feel privileged. You run this thing, you can have whatever yours. Yeah, that's so yeah, so much. I think two of our you know, as we approach breaking down the structure, the family structures that slavery gave us, that still feel so prevalent in so many of our households. Like to me, joy and pleasure are the road? Are the road there? You know, like we tell our kids historically, no for no reason, right, Like, oh I like this. No. It's like almost like we are all taught to rehearse tragedy constantly, always playing these loops of like the worst case scenario. And you know, for me that reprogramming is like, okay, but what's the best what's the best thing that could happen in this not what's the worst thing. What is the best way that we can stand in this moment for the highest good of all concerned? Um? Yeah, so powerful, mate. Let's talk about the movie. Let's talk about the film the most recent one. Oh my god, all right, American Skin. American Skin follows a black Iraqi war Vett, who, after being denied a fair trial following the shooting death of his teenage son and only child by a white police officer, desperately seeks justice and accountability for his son's death. It's presented by Spike Lee. American Skin is written, directed by, and starring Nate Parker. The film also stars at Murray Hardwick, bo Nap, Theo Rossi, Shane, Paul McGhee, uh many many more, Vanessa Bell Callaway And It's now playing in sellect theaters and on old digital platforms. I bought it on a few platforms. I bought it on my Amazon, on my Apple. It's like, I'm gonna have it everywhere I could watch it. It's very very it's very interesting. Um. You know, we don't have a marketing budget, you know, and it's a small film, but man, the word of mouth has been absolutely insane, the audience reaction, you know, it's it's it's very interesting, you know, because we have you know, call it a thirty rotten tomatoes from from you know, several critics call it five of them. I don't know, um, But then we have you know, a nineties six from five thousand audience members, which is the highest score and all of Ratten Tomatoes for any film for an audience score future films. So uh, And it's interesting because you know, I made this obviously for the people. You know, I want our voices to be elevated in a way that was unapologetic, and I wanted to make everyone who is complicit in the way that not only we are killed, but in the way that it is kind of pivoted always into something that further traumatizes us. I wanted to hold everyone accountable to that um and add to that conversation away that was real and authentic. Yeah, you know with those critics the way that I feel, it's like, if you don't get it, that says more about you than it does about the film. You know, if you're not able to really because there's so many stories being told, we're always confer it with whiteness, like as any any person of color of any background. It's like every film we ever saw was about whiteness, every democratic even once about black people. You're like, when when is it okay for us to tell our own stories and to be honest without a white man over my back telling me that to him it didn't feel true. You know, if I had a dollar for every time I was making a film and someone who didn't look like me would read the script or would watch a scene or even hear a dialogue about a scene and say, that doesn't feel you know, realistic. M You know me, you know me, know me like and I have zero tolerance, which is why every project I go into, one of the things I fight for so desperately is creative control. You know. It's like people need to be able to tell their stories without being inhibited. You know. It's like, if we're telling a story about you know, the wonderful women have been fighting for the right to vote in all differently, there shouldn't be some man over their shoulder like, well, you know what I'm saying, and I think that we have that's because that's not art. It becomes instantly propaganda, you know what I mean, because it's not authentic to the people it's trying to serve um. And so you know, I'm very aware and intentional about making films that speak to us in a way that is real, uh, in a way that cannot be spun into into into some type of peace that makes everyone feel good when they leave. It's never my intention hold that thought. We are coming right back. What inspired you to specifically right this film? Um? And is there any significance to the name Lincoln Jefferson. Yeah, well I answered the first questions in the second, but there's tons of significance. Um. I was inspired to write this film for for a reason. For for specific reason is I got custody of my nephew from my sister, beautiful young man. He was thirteen at the time I got custody of him. He had come from the school system that I was in, um years in Virginia Portsmoth, Virginia, and he had come and tested you know. I went and picked him up, and I asked him, Hey, you know I'm gonna change your life. Um, but it's not because you're better. You know, I'm putting you in a position that you can better serve the people that you're leaving once you have everything you need. Brought him to be with me, put him in school, and he tested into the fifth grade as an eighth grader, you know. Uh. And that was not a slight on his intelligence. Was a slight on the broken education system that we refused to talk about right whenever, and I'm a digress for a second. Whenever we're talking about the broken you know, education system. Uh am, I getting myself in trouble. But I'm gonna say specifically with liberals, the conversation automatically spends into yeah, this education system and in America is broken. No no no, no, no no no no no. I'm talking about for black kids. Let's be specific. Because if you have the ability to put your kids in a in a private school, whatever color you are, guess what, they're gonna get a better education. You know, there's a massive divide in education when it comes to the school that is here in San Marino or whatever, in the school that is in um, you know, off Bell Centro in in South l A. And so I'm bringing him to the school. Immediately I thought, man, like, what did I do? He's already you know, he's gonna have a tough time getting on these there are ninety people that look like him. The school was like, give us a shot at him. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna make sure he catches up. And uh and he started to catch up very quickly and was very much involved. It was as if he was engaged in a different way. But I realized very quickly two thousand and fourteen August, when Michael Brown was killed and his body was bloated and swelling on the hot pavement, uh, that I'd kind of taken him out of the frying pan into the fire. Because now, while he wasn't in a situation where he was being miseducated, uh, he was in the situation we had to ride his bike, you know, through white neighborhoods um and he is a dark skinned, tall, beautiful black man young man at the time. And so as we're watching the news, he turns me and says, uncle, Nate, what do I do if I get pulled over on my bike? And you know, me being the the the fearless, you know, actives, I said, you call me and I'll straighten it out. I'll come there. And I was like, whoa, don't call me, don't don't grab your phone. Um, you know, just slow your bike down, you know, the second you can look at the officer, look at him, get your feet down, get your hands up, so it doesn't feel like is anything happening that he can't see as he's coming out, keep your eyes on him so you can see your amanity, your bit, your baby face. And of course he's looking at me with bugged out eyes like what are you talking about? You know, like all of a sudden, super strong uncle Uncle Nate has become this this this coward you know uh. And it affected me. I felt very ashamed that I didn't have an answer for him, a real answer, you know, because what is the answer, Because you can do everything right and still get killed just on the strength. So that began my journey into finding an answer. Now I've been to protests. I was there, you know. I went to protests when Eric Garner was killed and watched the ubers and the cabs drive around the protesters. I was in Ferguson as you know. Um, I've gone everywhere but I but I went really demanding but not trying to break down the psychology g around where we were falling short as a as a community, you know, I mean, what is the divide? Like why aren't we getting accountability? Why aren't why is? Why do we often hear the conversation around police brutality appropriated, but we're not hearing it actually turnover into action, that is changing the narrative. Um. And that's where I started to think, Wow, if I could if I could get everyone in a room and kind of force our voices to be heard in an or or else way, UM, then we wouldn't have to be we wouldn't have to be screaming and crying. But the only thing you see on the news is you know, the tanks and the gas and the riots. Um, and that kind of that kind of inspired this kind of Sydney Lament, twelve angry Men Dog Day Afternoon type vibe. You know, how do I hold people hostage, enforce accountability and do it in a way with imagery that people have never seen in the history of cinema or in real life for that matter. So so that was kind of how I approached it. You know, it came it was inspired by my my you know, my nephew son and um, and then kind of grew into something that was you know, became a feature and then we we just we just went and shot it, you know. And and it's like anything else. When you're raising money, Uh, it's always hard to go to well intentioned white people to get money that will inevitably create the type of equity that will maybe make them feel like they've lost something. Um so, and it's tough, you know, because you got to do it. You know, I'm would be constantly begging for money from the very people were trying to get to understand what's happening to us and maybe you know, um so it got the money shot the film and uh and then you know that before that, obviously we created this character. I created. I created this character Lincoln Jefferson, and I named him that really to point to what it means to be a patriot within the context of not being considered a human you know, um, being someone as a veteran who went and for on foreign soil, for freedom that he couldn't that his child could not enjoy because it was taken from him, and doing it with a name that to to to some people call up heroism Lincoln Jefferson, but to people who have historical contexts, um calls up more racist ideology and rhetoric. You know, we know Jefferson had slaves, we know how you treated to slaves, we know how you treated his children. Um. We know about Lincoln that yes, he signed the Emancipation Proclamation, but not without uh deep prep and intense pressure from Frederick Douglas. We know that he said with his own mouth that he didn't believe that we were equal, and that there was something that that made us inherently inferior, and that we would always be inferior. Ah, these came, these words came out of his mouth. But yet and still we as a as a as a group of people, not to not to You know, I know that that we are, um not a monolith. But I speak when I when I say black people in this context, I mean it to be. We are like step children, you know, our foster children were. We're so often we're so desperate to be accepted by individuals that refuse, or by a society that refuses to accept his refus refuses. They may give us a job with their diversity initiutes where they don't celebrate our differences. They don't, you know. Um. So, the whole idea of Lincoln Jefferson as a name was to specifically call out the desperation we have of and being accepted in a in a nation that refuses to accept or acknowledge our humanity, and regardless of the sacrifices we make, even and even with with us assuming their identity. That makes sense. So, um, you know, anything that I do is going to be specific. Uh. And and that name was was very very specific, and there's more meaning to it. And you know, as we talk more at different times, we'll talk more about it. But that was on the surface, that's what I That was my entry point to his name, LORDA Mercy. You know, when I saw the film, it gutted me. It really really gutted me. It was incredibly done, it was powerful. Um. I wanted to run out the house and you know, get any streets and do something. Um. It was Yeah. The thing that really I think gutted me was just the witnessing of this beautiful man's grief and the witnessing of so many invalidated feelings, you know, like in such a layered way, one the obvious black in America. But you go off to Iraq, you are literally a warrior, right and you are using your body, literally your body and your life in service. You come back and he came back to a feeling of defeatedness. He came back to a feeling of not being able to fully provide for his family, a feeling of you know, being in a position going from a powerful leadership position to now having to be minimized in so many different ways, um or having to you know, speaking code or kind of just like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And then but also you know the complex layers. He is a loving father and expanse of open heart, wants to have an expanse of open heart, but also has lived through so much and that internal fight between opening and closing, opening to love, closing, opening, closing, you know. Um, and then for this experience to happen to him, um, and then you know everyone will see when they see this movie. Um, it just it just for me, really spoke to all the ways that black men deserve to be loved and healed and treated tenderly and treated with reverence. You know that kind of that tenderness is just really missing, that that place of holding space for blackmail pain, you know, like even touch right, Like how often are people really deeply hugged? How often are black men having like nourishing, uplifting conversations that seep in you know? Yeah, And I think I'm going to take it back to how we opened this conversation. When and when you when you when you said, you know Kobe and what he means what he continues to mean to black men. UM as a black man, he desperately loved his children, desperately loved his family. He desperately loved his team. He led his teammates, he spoke his truth. He had integrity, he had intelligence, he spoke different languages. UM. He had work ethic. AH, he had he had inner strength and outer strength. UM. He led by example, like all the quality qualities you look for in a black man, so many of those we saw in him. And it's and it's not dissimilar to Chadwick Boseman passing. You know, Um, black men, in my opinion, are low hanging fruit in this country. You know, where the where the We're the last to be loved, the first to beat d And that happens because, in my opinion, well it's real, I think, and I think it happens because of our fractured relationship with the truth about how this country started, you know, and the Willie Lynch letters we talked about in great debaters. You know, they would oftentimes take the strongest black man, the Kobe Bryant, the Chadwick Boseman, uh, and they would tarn feather him and then they would horse and quarter him and set the remain remaining carcass on fire in front of everyone of the other enslaved people to let them know just how quickly their lives could could end, how quickly they could be snuffed out. Uh. And if you look at the prison industrial complex where so many of our strong, intelligent black men are, it is a form of that prepared actuated lunching. That's where we are. We are. Take the father out of the household, take the strength from the community, and you lock them up, and you throw away the key. Uh and and you and and you destroy their psyche and then let them out and then start whispering mental illness out of context. You know, you you know what I mean. So when when we talk about the black men and how he is how he is treated in this country, we can't forget about how it started, you know. I mean, Jeez, On the plantation, a black man couldn't ask for food. If they ran out of corn mill, the black woman had to go to the house and ask for it, and had oftentimes do whatever it took to get the food to bring it back to the cabin. Why because it was impossible for a black man to speak in the president of a white man and not offend him. Why because white men were completely insecure as they should have been with respect to the manhood of black men. It has not it's the same reason. Well, it's like I always am blown away when I see an image of like you know, I come from sports background. How I am able to be in front of you right at the beginning of my life when you see twenty strong, huge black man, hollow around five ft two white man telling them what they're going to be doing. Or you'll see the owners in the NFL like that fig Yeah, I figured you appreciate that owner. You'll see the owner back like this during the games making the little calls and take him out, take him to get him out of here. And you see the and you're seeing the bodies doing this, and these brothers are dying at fifty four, all of them, you know what I mean. So when we talk about the destruction and the and the and the and the Kleenex like quality, you know a way that we're thrown away. Of course worse, it's no, it's no wonder. We are. We are guarded, and we are fearful, and we are paranoid, and we are stressed and we are mentally ill because this is our experience every single day. So when you think about right and spiritually, when you think about this man, Lincoln Jefferson, who did everything right. He fought for this country. As you said, he gave his body, came back broken, and a lot of people missed that that was the reason why their relationship didn't work with his with his wife, that he could not get it together, and it calls the straight and But knowing the importance of raising a son, he said, is it okay? You know that we share him what I instilled, the thing in him, the things that need to be instilled in him. In fact, I'm gonna make sure he goes to the best school in in in the area. In fact, I'm going to scrub the toilets of these very people that I know look down on me, the children of those who you know, you get what I'm saying, to do whatever I can to make sure he have. He did everything right. Yeah, so many black men are doing everything right and they turn on the TV and all they see is oh the negative. You know, whatever the spin needs to be to get the traction, to get the This is our every day. So at what where's the breaking point? At what point does the black men say, you know, as as Dr King suggested, you know, no Lincoln and Linkonian e Man's patient proclamation can bring about the strength and liberation that a black man and black woman need, they must reach inside of themselves. At what point do we just reach inside of ourselves and say, all right, bet enough is enough, My life doesn't matter. We're gonna get some justice. Because he was a good It wasn't. He wasn't some dude though smoking We eve before he ran up in there, you know, as white man on my shoulder may have, you know, suggest he didn't. But you know what I mean, Like, those are the kind of notes you get. What if he's a really a street guy, and what if what makes him redeeming is that it's just a good man that loves his son and and and it's dealing with the brokenness of rejection as a as a as a as a patriot is no more more, no one more patriot than he was. Um. But I wanted to tell that story and do it in a way that anyone could identify. All of us got children, all of us love our children, you know what I mean? Like, but can you identify with this man and the justice he needs in the accountability that needs to take place, Because I think if if you can identify with him, then you have an entry put into the conversation and the discussion. And if you identify with the discussion, then it will stay with you. If it stays that you will spill out into life, and it spills out into life, you'll have conversations with the people in your life that don't understand what Black Lives Matter is all about, what Brian Stevenson is talking about, what color of Change is trying to achieve. You get what I'm saying. So the whole point of the of that whole movie is just abounce pass towards the shot. All it is is a setup for this type of conversation. If it takes me make a movie for you to want to interview, interview me, for this to go out to your audience then to think about, like, man, let me see this film, then to engage their white friends, or engage their police friends, have them watching have a real discussion about internal accountability as well as external accountability, then so be it right? Yeah, yeah, quick, note, you've actually been on my interview bucket list for four years. So it wasn't just this film you were You've been on my list, Um, but it's really just the way you are in the world, you know, and your creative brilliance and your faith. And UM, I'm glad for this movie because it's been the best vehicle for me to be able to get you in front of a mic. Um. You know, I want to be respectful of your time. I want, but I have a couple of things to touch on. Um. So Americans spent American skin really speaks to blackmail, pain, being invalidated by white supremacy, by patriarchy, by injustice. And we know that not being seen by the world that we live in is so profoundly harmful to our own self image. So how do you love yourself? Take away the service, I'm very clear, how actively you are showing up for the world, you are showing up for your family. How do you love you? That's a tough one. I mean, I don't know. I don't think about myself as often in that context. I think I don't know what I am outside of service. If I'm keeping it real, you know, Um, you know, from the moment I will wake up to the moment I go to sleep, I'm it's like a Rubik's cube, trying to figure out how I can contribute UM to legacy. How I cantin you know, to my children, to to your children, to quest like, how can I use whatever power that is in me to shift this whole thing? So when I'm gone, it will be, it will have I will be I'll be able to say that I was here, you know that that I didn't waste you know, you know these functional hands in this functional mind. Um. You know, maybe it seems like I'm being evasive. I'm not trying to be no, but I do think it's important to note, especially for listeners, there is also some trauma response woven into that. You know, Um, we were not naturally taught how to love ourselves just being alive on earth, regardless of you know, demographic background. We're not taught to love ourselves in any way. We're not taught to feel any of our feelings in real time, and we are taught to suppress constantly suppressing our own joy, suppressing pleasure, suppressing lightheartedness. Everything feels like for our own protection, it has to be outward projecting UM. And that's one of the reasons I love meditation. But that's a whole another conversation. Well, it's true, and we've talked about that before, and I and I and I want to into to meditation and want to do more that. It's funny because um, in the new film that I'm doing, one of the things I found in my research is um when people are in specifically in solider confinement, doing a phone about solidier confinement and the inhumane aspects of that. But in my research, one of the guys was saying, how when you are in a place of of of being to humanized or being marginalized, or there's a grave injustice happening, the only way to survive is to have a mission, you know, to to set your sight on something and sprint toward it as fast as you possibly can. He said. It passes the time but allows you to kind of dodge traps of the enemy. Uh. And it really hit me because I feel like it spoke to the prison of being a black man in America, you know what I mean, And how you can't go anywhere you want to go, You can't open any door you want to open when you want to open it. Oftentimes you do have to deal with gatekeepers constantly and people who are not for you constantly. I can remember even being, you know, in college and thinking to myself, damn, like, you know, I went to a p W I um, I didn't go to BBC, a predominant white institution, and that feeling of like, dang, Like every every single day I have to be able to coach which and talk to white people, uh, and teachers and professors and whatever. And white kids will never know what it's like. They can go their whole time and never have to talk to a Black person their entire and the football team is the reason why this whole place is here. It was like I just all these things. But when that brother said that about the whole idea of finding a mission, I feel like so many of us as black men, once we realized that the game is fixed, we stopped thinking about ourselves. We just think about who the game is hurting and how to break the game. That's that's all I think about all day long, Dead, I promise you all I think about all day long is how to break the game. How do I subvert the game? How do I flip this on his head so I don't have to feel guilty when I die, or shame when I died that I my kids inherited a system, you know, uh, systemically racist and oppressive system that is going to beat them like it beat me. How do I turn their pain into a stick. So I do need to think more about I mean, the things that give me George, just being around my family, you know what I mean. Like people ask I remember when the pandemic and people were like, um, you know, how are you How are you sheltering? I was like, I've been sheltering since the nineties, Like this is this is my style. I love being home, like I'm a home body, Like wake up on Saturdays. Every Saturday's home improvement day. I'm painting, I'm fixing stucco um, building stuff, like I built a treehouse in the back. Like I'm all about home. But even that is service to my to my to my wife and children, you know what I mean. Like, I've really got to think more about how to in the same way that breaking my kids out of that way of thinking about how the world is not for them. I think black men, if I can so boldly speak for black men some of us, I think that there should be some work maybe around experiencing joy separate from the the trauma, you know, giving yourself because I don't, I have a hard time give. I get guilty when I give myself a break, you know. I try to write films that don't speak to our circumstance, and those the only times I get writers because I'm like, damn, like I could be using this time too, And and that guilt is the it's the old programming and loops of the oppressor and of colonialization, you know, like I think about when I think of like my biggest, deepest dream for black men, um, it's that they are just really allowed to experience themselves as tender and soft sometimes, you know, it's the of the life, because well, the enemy is always looking to jump. I mean, like even like I'm getting something done to my house, you know, and I live in a decent neighborhood, and just even when you know, one of my neighbors said one of the most racist things to my nephew that you can imagine, and then I had to deal with that, you know, or like when people come to my house, like I had someone even asked me, like what do you do? And like how it looking at their house? Looking at my house, looking at that, I was looking at that, or just you know what I mean. It's like you're never ever ever free from the ignorance from the white supremacy. It's so pervasive that you always That's the thing that I think is so important, um, that we start to expand in our communities, is that when you have access to that like internal battery of love, it creates this almost galaxy in your chest inside of you. And so there's this it's almost like a liberation from your cells outward for the inside out. And so by cultivating that and spending a little more time with that space, it does well, it doesn't change the system, but it does change how we're able to show up for ourselves in the system, and how we're able to find other things to think about and prioritize. You know. Um, it's just when I when I look at it, right when I and keep in mind another one of our mutual friends, I have this conversation with him all the time, Charlemagne um, and I got him meditating. But um, you know, to me, that is the only way we actually create structural change within our family systems. That is the way we change generational trauma. That is the way we change our ancestral trauma is for us to radically love ourselves and not love ourselves and see our worth through service or through providing or through productivity, but love ourselves because we exist and we're worthy and regardless. H that's a journey. That's a journey, because I would, I would not Devil's advocate. But you're right, it's just sometimes I didn't say, but I said. It's just so I'm adding, I'm adding on it's just sometimes dangerous, uh, for me personally to step too far off the road. Um. You know when Jackie Robins had a great quote, we said, a life only matters and the impact that has on others. You probably wouldn't agree with that one, no, But well it depends on the definition of impact, right, Because I feel that I have impact on people through the way I love myself. And I think that the way that I love myself and the way that I allow myself to radiate my lessons and my love gives people permission to want the same for themselves. Just that planting of a seed, you know that. Yeah, yeah, it may look it makes sense, it makes sense, It makes sense. I love that I love that we'll get you the very optimistic, you know, and I don't even know if it's optimist. And the thing is, I just have an optimism that I will always be enough and I'll always keep going. I don't have. My optimism isn't placed in outside sources. But I try to just keep that little like inner oven burning for myself regardless of the significant challenges in my life and in this world. And it's funny for you. It's funny because that I feel like that is you know, that is everything that I teach my my my my children, my girls, you know, self love, self care, self love, self care. It's just as a black man. And like I said, we are not a monolist. I'm not speaking for everyone, but for me personally, it's sometimes hard living in this country. It feels like to reflect inward too too much is to forget what's happening outside. And I know that's not the case, but that is the journey. I think that's absolutely. Yeah, we're gonna what we're gonna say aside from yes, no, yeah, no, absolutely, And I think you know, the the amazing part about a healing journey and about whatever journeys we find ourselves on internally, we're on them for our whole life, right, So it's just like a constant practice of like I'm in pursuit of self mastery, but every day is me practicing that or attempting that. You know, But what you said is so accurate. But I think for everyone listening, especially the guys, um, you know, I would just really play the role of like observer, like just getting curious about ourselves and why we believe what we believe, but specifically why we relate to ourselves in whatever way we relate to ourselves. Just starting that dialogue of being curious and be like why do I talk to myself like that? Or when was the first time I started to feel that way about me or what I did or didn't deserve, you know not. And I mean, and I'm not saying in a way that's condescenting. I mean, it's like it's true, it's true, you know you And my internal monalogue is like this, all right, get up, all right, let's go get it alright, cool, all right, let's all right, let's do that. No problem, no problem at all, no problem, all right, Nate, Let's go Like it's literally like grit grit, grit, let's go. It's it's I've had very few conversations when I'm like, so, how do you feel it? You know, you know what? You know what I mean like, you know, yeah, you probably do it like this, since how you'd be like, hey, Nate, how are you feeling? Listen, bro, don't matter, get it, don't matter how you feel, go get it. But yeah, that's I think there's a lot of again, a lot of a lot of trauma um just in general. And uh, you know, even for your listeners as that you know, and and and I think it's it's healthy to be open. I think that's why I'm even having this conversation for all the for all the brothers that are that are listening specifically, I do believe that all this work isn't for nothing, you know what I mean that that we do want to see a place where our kids have a healthier environment. Uh, and they don't have to worry about being killed in the streets, or they don't worry about their brains their minds being killed in the schools. But you know, pursuing some some pursuing self love, I think, and maybe help us live longer, because black men live you know, our life expectfully is lower than everyone's. You know, um, when we talk about with COVID and pre existing conditions and you know, heart disease and diabetes and all the things that you know, just things that are just perpetuated by stress. It's stressful, dude. It is stressful being in this planet and recognizing that, you know, we are the wretched of the earth in the eyes of so many, but knowing at the root we are the original and we are strong. Do you get what I'm saying. It's the opposite when it comes to our capacity, But that's the journey. That's the journey. Uh. And it could be so worthy, um to for everyone to just look at you know, it's not sustainable to be at war with the world and at war with yourself, right, Like, that's not sustainable and that doesn't lend itself to really the freedom of the intergenerational trauma, the ancestral trauma that um we have been waiting our whole lineage to get out of fighting. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Okay, So Americans skin it is in all the places now. Um. I saw a beautiful video of Ditty crying after he saw this film. I saw Lebron tweeting it out and talking about how impactful. Like the way that this film has been received has been so powerful, so powerful. Um. And I feel like this film is just it's really being savored, you know, it is creating so much dialogue within families, within communities. Um. And it's it's just it's it's so powerfully changing the narrative. That's the goal. Even on the bottom of the poster says time to change the narrative. You know, like this is not acceptable anymore. You know. Dr King said we must be dissatisfied, like and every we must be dissatisfied. And what does it mean to look and field feel an act dissatisfied? You know, there needs to be pressured and needs to be resistance. Um. And the type of resistance that can't be ignored, you know. And I think the fact that we're in every barbershop right now, everyone's talking about in every barbershop, every beauty shop. You know what I'm saying on your job spot, on the basketball courts, on the football fields, because that's how we address subjugation. You know, we get into our little selves and we say how do we feel about this? Like if this is if we can, if we have to be honest about where we are right now then and what we saw this movie is true, then what is our part? Are we complicit and part of the problem? You know, are we a part of the solution? If we're part of the solution, what does that mean? Like, what does it mean to be a journalist who is part of the solution? You know, you do it every day, you know, the spiritual solution. You're you're you're you're kicking them out every day. What what does it mean as as an athlete to be a part of the solution. What does it mean as a as a writer, director, producer? What does it mean as a businessman businesswoman? What does it mean as a politician to be part of the solution? As a parent? Boom, It's all we are at an impasse and I don't think you know, technology is a wrecking ball. It's taking things that would take a year to do before the type of mobilizing When you think about the mobilizing out of the bus boycott that took real work like that can be done. You know, if if if Rosa Parks had Facebook, or you know, if if Harriet had you know, what I mean Twitter, we'd be free. I'm gonna be there at three o'clock. Flash mob boom. Everyone gets the information to say time like young people have it right now. They have the ability to move and mobilize quickly. We saw what happened with reading in game. Stuff like technology can literally topple the Republic. Yeah, yeah, we so happened January six at the Capitol. We saw that they've been talking about that for how long over social media and in their own groups circles Like where we are right now from the standpoint of resistance for people that look like us, that are marginalized like us, and allies of our journey, there are things that can happen very quickly. So I hope that this film it's just it's not I'm not a savior. The film is not the answer, but I hope that it is a part of the conversation that leads us closer to the solution. Yeah. As we close out this show, Nate, Um, I like to leave our listeners with what I call soul work, and so um this will be a journaling prompt, but I'd like to end fight you to answer this prompt as our final moment. What do you wish that you were told or that you knew about yourself as a black child? What do I I wish I was taught or told about history that started before slavery. Mm hmm. I came into it so late. And I think that's why I'm so desperate when it comes to our freedom, is because I feel like I wasted, you know, eighteen years of my life, uh, pursuing on a hamster wheel when it came to trying to figure out how to be happy and how to be free. So I truly wish I had learned. It would have contextualized my religion. It would have contextualized my circumstances where I lived and why I lived that way, to contextualize how it was treated by teachers, how and how my classmate mates were treated by teachers. And I wouldn't have blamed, as you said, children blame. I wouldn't have blamed myself and us for things that I knew had that had been done to us. You know, like when you speak, you speak as a queen. You don't speak as an enslaved person, you know, like and anyone that's ever sat in front of you, here's that right. And I think that that that is a connection to the ancestors. That is a context, you know. And the funny thing about time is that we were only enslaved for that long. That's it evolutionary scale and and and civilization so to speak. Right, that's it and all the rest. We were top self. But no one teaches you that in this country. You know, the second you you know what it is to be to exist, You're taught just to survive. Yeah, you know, so I do wish that earlier on in life I was told about the legacy of who we were as the original man um. I think it would have impacted a lot of things. Yeah, that you're feeling of personal power had had nurturance to it, you know that there was that it had been done before that we're not reinventing the wheel. That we were not by barbarians, but the people who had done that to us were the barbarians, you know what I mean. It's like this is great wild where he says the United States is the only country to go from barbarianism to decadence without civilization between. Ah yeah, yeah, yeah, this all this all the country went from barbarianism to decadence, just like that and never had to deal with being civil. Yeah, this whole this whole country is built on like sociopathy, you know, when the behavior doesn't meet actions. It's like we from its inception, there was this this bizarre, overgrandized claim that we were all equal and no one was except for white males. But it's yes, and now the constitution, our Supreme Court is built to uphold the constitution of something real. For those people to sign that paper, those people sign that paper got everything that they wanted, everything, everything, And we didn't sign that paper. Mhm. And I don't want to sign that paper. That's the thing we were about it. But that's the thing, at least figuratively, Yeah, of course, well mentally and emotionally and like yeah, the way that we hold things within ourselves not going by that. Yeah, I don't want your team to get mad at me. Um, we could talk forever, We could the journal imprompt for everyone for this episode. Your soul work is just spend some time today, really, um, just savoring in your own mind of things that you wish you had been given access to as a young person, and how you can show up for yourself with that information more fully. Right now, Nate, you are a king, You are an incredible man. Um you are seeing so clearly. I am so grateful for your life. I am so grateful you exist. And how lucky are we, How lucky are we to have you and your creative genius and all your offerings to the world. Really grateful for your time today, Thank you for creating space for us. You know we we we so often when it comes to this type of thing, we're kind of propped in front of people that don't look like us and kind of given the task of getting them to understand our experience. It always feels good to sit down with someone that that can connect with you on the solar level because they are you, you know, so I appreciate you, appreciate your time always. Hey, find me on social Let's connect at deVie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or go to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're listening to the show on Apple podcast, please please please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe, and send this episode to a friend. Dropping Jams is the production of I Heart Radio and Black Effect Network. It's produced by Triple and Me. Debbie Brown. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.