Pushkin.

Pushkin.

Tunday at Abimpe is a creative powerhouse. He's a cartoonist, a painter, a director, a Hollywood actor, and for the past twenty years, he's been the lead singer of the band TV on the Radio. His latest offering, another of his many artistic pursuits, is a solo project called The Black Bolts. Tunday began writing these songs back in twenty nineteen, and after a stint composing music for the PBS kids show City Island with producer Wilder Zobie, the two decided to set their sights on Tunday's growing collection of solo songs. Bul Chu, Leo Bunten and Joah Fittlandis of TV on the Radio also contributed to the album, which sounds every bit as fresh and thrilling as Tunday's past work. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Tunday out A Bempe about how stain steeped in creative projects keeps him sane. He also recalls his day's work and as a stop motion artists on MTV Celebrity Deathmatch, and why he thinks TV on the Radio isn't cool enough to be considered INDI sleas this is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bempe.

Tunday at Abimpe is a creative powerhouse. He's a cartoonist, a painter, a director, a Hollywood actor, and for the past twenty years, he's been the lead singer of the band TV on the Radio. His latest offering, another of his many artistic pursuits, is a solo project called The Black Bolts. Tunday began writing these songs back in twenty nineteen, and after a stint composing music for the PBS kids show City Island with producer Wilder Zobie, the two decided to set their sights on Tunday's growing collection of solo songs. Bul Chu, Leo Bunten and Joah Fittlandis of TV on the Radio also contributed to the album, which sounds every bit as fresh and thrilling as Tunday's past work. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Tunday out A Bempe about how stain steeped in creative projects keeps him sane. He also recalls his day's work and as a stop motion artists on MTV Celebrity Deathmatch, and why he thinks TV on the Radio isn't cool enough to be considered INDI sleas this is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bempe.

So I have I have a theory about how you came to record to finally put out this solo album. So I saw that in the not so distant past you learned how to mix, how to master, how to produce, and you started sort of like messing around in ableton and you know, you had been in TV on the radio for over twenty years, So was was you learning how to technically use those tools? Was that what kind of like pushed you to do your own project?

So I have I have a theory about how you came to record to finally put out this solo album. So I saw that in the not so distant past you learned how to mix, how to master, how to produce, and you started sort of like messing around in ableton and you know, you had been in TV on the radio for over twenty years, So was was you learning how to technically use those tools? Was that what kind of like pushed you to do your own project?

Not exactly. I think I went into that.

Not exactly. I think I went into that.

I went to this, yeah, this place a friend taught at this school dub Spot, which I think has gone now, and did some you know, just just kind of getting my head around able to end mixing and mastering.

I went to this, yeah, this place a friend taught at this school dub Spot, which I think has gone now, and did some you know, just just kind of getting my head around able to end mixing and mastering.

And I think it was more so.

And I think it was more so.

I wouldn't have to wait for us all get together while I was making something as a band, and I could just be like send people stuff and be like here's a stronger basis for this and you can fuck around with it or do whatever. But I will also say that one of the things that experience taught me of, at least as far as the mixing and mastering end of it, is that like, I absolutely am not the person who should be doing that with any of my own stuff. I can do it, but it's it would take me. There are things that you know, I'm working with Wilder right now.

I wouldn't have to wait for us all get together while I was making something as a band, and I could just be like send people stuff and be like here's a stronger basis for this and you can fuck around with it or do whatever. But I will also say that one of the things that experience taught me of, at least as far as the mixing and mastering end of it, is that like, I absolutely am not the person who should be doing that with any of my own stuff. I can do it, but it's it would take me. There are things that you know, I'm working with Wilder right now.

Who is just.

Who is just.

He is however he would put it, I'm telling you that he's he's He's a person who's fluent, you know, doing that. And I'm a person who, like, if I am pushed to, I will sit there and do it myself. But it is not it's not that end of it is not like I'm more a person who's making tons and tons and tons of voice notes and then taking those and making demos from them and right and then kind of like sitting with someone and fleshing things out and leading, you know.

He is however he would put it, I'm telling you that he's he's He's a person who's fluent, you know, doing that. And I'm a person who, like, if I am pushed to, I will sit there and do it myself. But it is not it's not that end of it is not like I'm more a person who's making tons and tons and tons of voice notes and then taking those and making demos from them and right and then kind of like sitting with someone and fleshing things out and leading, you know.

Like I feel like the it's it's a skill to to tag in the right people.

Like I feel like the it's it's a skill to to tag in the right people.

Forever, yeah, and just be like you were great at that, You're great at that, You're great at that, and I want you to do that, you know, in conjunction with this with.

Forever, yeah, and just be like you were great at that, You're great at that, You're great at that, and I want you to do that, you know, in conjunction with this with.

This p.

This p.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how did you meet Wilder? What have you known him for a while or how did that relationship?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how did you meet Wilder? What have you known him for a while or how did that relationship?

Yeah, and then Wilderford for a really really long time. I think we probably met like nineteen ninety eight or something. I just had a lot of mutual friends and just bands playing around in New York like Brooklyn on the Lower East Side, but have just been like, you know, really been friends forever and it never worked together. And he you know, he does a lot of work with Run the Jewels and other projects, and actually got a gig doing a soundtrack for a kids show on PBS called City Island. One of my my degenerate animator friends from MTV as we all grew up is now just an incredibly h generous and peaceful and wonderful person who wants to put good things into the end of the world and made an awesome kids show to soundtrack it. And so I kind of I called Wilder to kind of like you know, the split the there's a lot of a lot of music, and just said, would you want to like work on this.

Yeah, and then Wilderford for a really really long time. I think we probably met like nineteen ninety eight or something. I just had a lot of mutual friends and just bands playing around in New York like Brooklyn on the Lower East Side, but have just been like, you know, really been friends forever and it never worked together. And he you know, he does a lot of work with Run the Jewels and other projects, and actually got a gig doing a soundtrack for a kids show on PBS called City Island. One of my my degenerate animator friends from MTV as we all grew up is now just an incredibly h generous and peaceful and wonderful person who wants to put good things into the end of the world and made an awesome kids show to soundtrack it. And so I kind of I called Wilder to kind of like you know, the split the there's a lot of a lot of music, and just said, would you want to like work on this.

Thing with me?

Thing with me?

And we started doing that just as as a gig, and just kind of halfway through it, i'd been you know, I put these demos that I've been working on for my own thing of these songs that I thought could turn into something else aside, and I started thinking about them again and I just let him know. I was just like, if you want to tribe something on some of these, please be my guest, and you know, just like another thing to do. And he worked on two songs and sent them to me, just like even in the most like skeletal form, and I basically was like, if if we can do this entire record ourselves together right here, because it was funny because we developed this working relationship. This is kind of nine to five get we gotta get these notes in, like we got to do all this stuff for PBS kids. Yeah, so then it was a pretty natural jump to just working on these songs together kind of with the same attitude. The funny thing of working for a show or SOUNDTRACKINGCAU someone's like, you know, someone will call you about something you spend two days working on. Just be like this is great, except all of it's wrong and you have to have to change everything, and you just realize very quickly that you can't get attached to anything. You just have to It's hard, but again, it's also kind of freeing in a way because you're it's this thing of like as long as it sounds right in the end. The there's a lot of hold up I find, either recording with the band or just other projects, there can be a lot of pausing going like ah, I'm not sure about this, Like you know, it's not even before something's done. There can be a lot of hesitation and I feel.

And we started doing that just as as a gig, and just kind of halfway through it, i'd been you know, I put these demos that I've been working on for my own thing of these songs that I thought could turn into something else aside, and I started thinking about them again and I just let him know. I was just like, if you want to tribe something on some of these, please be my guest, and you know, just like another thing to do. And he worked on two songs and sent them to me, just like even in the most like skeletal form, and I basically was like, if if we can do this entire record ourselves together right here, because it was funny because we developed this working relationship. This is kind of nine to five get we gotta get these notes in, like we got to do all this stuff for PBS kids. Yeah, so then it was a pretty natural jump to just working on these songs together kind of with the same attitude. The funny thing of working for a show or SOUNDTRACKINGCAU someone's like, you know, someone will call you about something you spend two days working on. Just be like this is great, except all of it's wrong and you have to have to change everything, and you just realize very quickly that you can't get attached to anything. You just have to It's hard, but again, it's also kind of freeing in a way because you're it's this thing of like as long as it sounds right in the end. The there's a lot of hold up I find, either recording with the band or just other projects, there can be a lot of pausing going like ah, I'm not sure about this, Like you know, it's not even before something's done. There can be a lot of hesitation and I feel.

So that's definitive feedback.

So that's definitive feedback.

Yes, definitive feedback.

Yes, definitive feedback.

And it's also sort of like I know that this can go a million different ways and none of them are wrong and none of them are right. It's just kind of like, you know, do something, does it feel okay? Not sure about it? Step away for a bit. But also we had a while working on the record, we had a code for going back in and working on something or leaving it alone, and it was the code was is this dry paint or is this wet paint? And there were it's great to have someone to bounce something off of where you're like, no, I really want to go back and fix that, and they're sort of like, I think it's dry paint. And then you got to walk around for a second and just come back and be like, actually you're right, I don't need to mess with that. And it's fine that I feel a little uncomfortable about it, because we'll see that's the whole part of putting something out too, is like that's it's for It's a circuit for someone else to complete in a lot of ways. Yeah, right, Like this is this all these spots on the record that I'm not sure about. First off, no one's ever going.

And it's also sort of like I know that this can go a million different ways and none of them are wrong and none of them are right. It's just kind of like, you know, do something, does it feel okay? Not sure about it? Step away for a bit. But also we had a while working on the record, we had a code for going back in and working on something or leaving it alone, and it was the code was is this dry paint or is this wet paint? And there were it's great to have someone to bounce something off of where you're like, no, I really want to go back and fix that, and they're sort of like, I think it's dry paint. And then you got to walk around for a second and just come back and be like, actually you're right, I don't need to mess with that. And it's fine that I feel a little uncomfortable about it, because we'll see that's the whole part of putting something out too, is like that's it's for It's a circuit for someone else to complete in a lot of ways. Yeah, right, Like this is this all these spots on the record that I'm not sure about. First off, no one's ever going.

To know, no one, Yeah no.

To know, no one, Yeah no.

And also, like when you're talking about engineering, like I wonder if I'm sort of fascinated by engineering because I don't think I have the tools to really distinguish, you know, like if something you know, people listen to albums like oh this is mixed so well, and I'm like, oh yeah, Like I wonder if if you were to just mix the album, like would it sound wildly different? But now you know, because you sort of have you've seen the back end.

And also, like when you're talking about engineering, like I wonder if I'm sort of fascinated by engineering because I don't think I have the tools to really distinguish, you know, like if something you know, people listen to albums like oh this is mixed so well, and I'm like, oh yeah, Like I wonder if if you were to just mix the album, like would it sound wildly different? But now you know, because you sort of have you've seen the back end.

Sure.

Sure.

I mean, if I were first off, it was if it was just going to be me mixing it, it wouldn't be done by no, it would just be it just would not and it wouldn't be good. I'm just I'm safely I can safely say.

I mean, if I were first off, it was if it was just going to be me mixing it, it wouldn't be done by no, it would just be it just would not and it wouldn't be good. I'm just I'm safely I can safely say.

I'm not like it would be muddy, or.

I'm not like it would be muddy, or.

It would be muddy, and it would be I would scrap a lot of things out of frustration that someone who just that wilder would be like, no, just do this and this and this and keep working on it and it's done.

It would be muddy, and it would be I would scrap a lot of things out of frustration that someone who just that wilder would be like, no, just do this and this and this and keep working on it and it's done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think most of the stuff that I was uncertain about on the record between the two of us would be more kind of aesthetic choices. Yes's sort of like, I don't know if this.

Yeah. So I think most of the stuff that I was uncertain about on the record between the two of us would be more kind of aesthetic choices. Yes's sort of like, I don't know if this.

With me.

With me.

Sometimes it would be lyrics and I would just say, like, I like, I'm eighty percent on these lyrics, thinking like this all lands really well for me and makes some kind of sense because you know, you say with something forever and you're sort of like, are these words anymore?

Sometimes it would be lyrics and I would just say, like, I like, I'm eighty percent on these lyrics, thinking like this all lands really well for me and makes some kind of sense because you know, you say with something forever and you're sort of like, are these words anymore?

Oh totally.

Oh totally.

But it's but again, it's like there's some things where you're sort of I feel like with TV on the radio, I would sit there for a very long time and to obsess over certain things lyrically, just because it's there was a there was something I don't know that was that was a mode of being in all of that, Whereas with this, I feel like I didn't obsess a lot about things, and if I felt myself going in to do that because ultimately it also doesn't really matter that much at.

But it's but again, it's like there's some things where you're sort of I feel like with TV on the radio, I would sit there for a very long time and to obsess over certain things lyrically, just because it's there was a there was something I don't know that was that was a mode of being in all of that, Whereas with this, I feel like I didn't obsess a lot about things, and if I felt myself going in to do that because ultimately it also doesn't really matter that much at.

The Yeah, exactly, it's me here. Yeah.

The Yeah, exactly, it's me here. Yeah.

And also I feel like with TV on the radio, it was sort of after a point you realize you're writing something that you're gonna have to sing literally hundreds of times, and so kind of like which is a bad way for me. I would say that's a bad way to think about writing anything, you know, like anticipating the torture of like saying this stuff that you thought was stupid before you recorded it, and now you're like, now it's stupid in public and it's great.

And also I feel like with TV on the radio, it was sort of after a point you realize you're writing something that you're gonna have to sing literally hundreds of times, and so kind of like which is a bad way for me. I would say that's a bad way to think about writing anything, you know, like anticipating the torture of like saying this stuff that you thought was stupid before you recorded it, and now you're like, now it's stupid in public and it's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, is there anything any songs that now when you're performing them hundreds of times that you're like, oh, I wish that I would have changed that.

Well, is there anything any songs that now when you're performing them hundreds of times that you're like, oh, I wish that I would have changed that.

There are two answers, and both of them are no.

There are two answers, and both of them are no.

The first first, the first part of it is I think I've been and it's worked out.

The first first, the first part of it is I think I've been and it's worked out.

I don't we don't play those songs.

I don't we don't play those songs.

Oh good call, you just don't.

Oh good call, you just don't.

Play and there but there are a couple of songs where just on stage, if I had a lyric that I thought was better that I never recorded, I'll just sing that one.

Play and there but there are a couple of songs where just on stage, if I had a lyric that I thought was better that I never recorded, I'll just sing that one.

Oh it doesn't matter.

Oh it doesn't matter.

Great, Yeah, feel those are two brilliant fixes.

Great, Yeah, feel those are two brilliant fixes.

Yeah, don't do it or bend reality.

Yeah, don't do it or bend reality.

Yes, I wanted to ask you about the title the Black Bolts.

Yes, I wanted to ask you about the title the Black Bolts.

How did you come upon that?

How did you come upon that?

I came upon it just it just came out of a lot of free writing. I'll just write, like just to shake the shake the garbage can or the brain out in the morning, just free write whatever and look at it a few weeks later and think, are these lyrics?

I came upon it just it just came out of a lot of free writing. I'll just write, like just to shake the shake the garbage can or the brain out in the morning, just free write whatever and look at it a few weeks later and think, are these lyrics?

Is this nothing? Am I crazy? Whatever?

Is this nothing? Am I crazy? Whatever?

And that was in there and the essentially it's the idea of a point of illumination in some heavy darkness, and the idea of lightning actually realized, like a lot of the songs ended up having this this mentioned of lightning or theme of lightning, and started to feel like the Black Bolts are. There is a spark of inspiration that can come in the middle of a very heavy time or a depression or events that kind of seemed to you know, obscure, obscure the good things from from your sight, but you know the whole You know, thunderclouds can generate bolt of electricity that illuminates the whole landscape and for at least for a second, you can see, like the beauty and it the tragedy in it, you know, all aspects of it, and maybe maybe feel better about the you know, and actually appreciate that that darkness of it too.

And that was in there and the essentially it's the idea of a point of illumination in some heavy darkness, and the idea of lightning actually realized, like a lot of the songs ended up having this this mentioned of lightning or theme of lightning, and started to feel like the Black Bolts are. There is a spark of inspiration that can come in the middle of a very heavy time or a depression or events that kind of seemed to you know, obscure, obscure the good things from from your sight, but you know the whole You know, thunderclouds can generate bolt of electricity that illuminates the whole landscape and for at least for a second, you can see, like the beauty and it the tragedy in it, you know, all aspects of it, and maybe maybe feel better about the you know, and actually appreciate that that darkness of it too.

Yeah, it made me think it's very evocative, the title, and it made me think that maybe you're making a metal album.

Yeah, it made me think it's very evocative, the title, and it made me think that maybe you're making a metal album.

I would. I mean, that's the other part of it.

I would. I mean, that's the other part of it.

As I was kind of finishing it up, I was like, this is a very good name for a metal band. Yeah, and maybe I'm a metal band.

As I was kind of finishing it up, I was like, this is a very good name for a metal band. Yeah, and maybe I'm a metal band.

Now. Maybe that's fat to do, but yeah, now I feel like it's.

Now. Maybe that's fat to do, but yeah, now I feel like it's.

A it's a good It definitely works, and it stuck as something that was like a good Like I think I before I even started putting songs in order or knew that I was making a record, I kind of had that as the a guiding a guiding theme and guiding set away.

A it's a good It definitely works, and it stuck as something that was like a good Like I think I before I even started putting songs in order or knew that I was making a record, I kind of had that as the a guiding a guiding theme and guiding set away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

What is the feeling in you when you realize like, oh, okay, I'm about to put out an album.

What is the feeling in you when you realize like, oh, okay, I'm about to put out an album.

Are you excited? Are you nervous? Are you a little bit?

Are you excited? Are you nervous? Are you a little bit?

Like?

Like?

Do you get self conscious.

Do you get self conscious.

With this? I feel like.

With this? I feel like.

I was around it for so long because it just kind of got done and kind of and fits and starts. I've been working on it from the end of twenty nineteen until last spring. Wow, I feel like just you know, with a lot of interruptions, but I feel like that's kind of the timeline of all of those songs being created. So I right now, I just feel relieved that it's actually going to, you know, get away from me and out into the world. Can kind of see what that does. And I feel like again, another part of working on it for such a long time is that I'm not too attached or detached from any of the songs or the record. I just feel like it's a really it has the feeling of we made something that feels like a really good gift, and now it's time to give it away and it's up to.

I was around it for so long because it just kind of got done and kind of and fits and starts. I've been working on it from the end of twenty nineteen until last spring. Wow, I feel like just you know, with a lot of interruptions, but I feel like that's kind of the timeline of all of those songs being created. So I right now, I just feel relieved that it's actually going to, you know, get away from me and out into the world. Can kind of see what that does. And I feel like again, another part of working on it for such a long time is that I'm not too attached or detached from any of the songs or the record. I just feel like it's a really it has the feeling of we made something that feels like a really good gift, and now it's time to give it away and it's up to.

Whoever gets it.

Whoever gets it.

Whoever gets it physically or mentally or emotionally, it's for them. No.

Whoever gets it physically or mentally or emotionally, it's for them. No.

After quick break, we're back with more from Leo Rose's conversation with Tundai out of Binbai.

After quick break, we're back with more from Leo Rose's conversation with Tundai out of Binbai.

There's a lot of life that happens between twenty nineteen and now. Oh totally was there like seasons in your life? Are things you were going through that are you know, whether it's like personally or professionally that showed up on this album for you.

There's a lot of life that happens between twenty nineteen and now. Oh totally was there like seasons in your life? Are things you were going through that are you know, whether it's like personally or professionally that showed up on this album for you.

Oh, definitely the I mean, the biggest thing was.

Oh, definitely the I mean, the biggest thing was.

Basically I started writing these demos in twenty nineteen when TV on the Radio took a break, and then when I started to really get into it and decide like, Okay, I'm gonna maybe look around for some producers to collaborate with or some folks that collaborate with the pandemic hit and it was kind of like, I'm not looking around to do anything with anybody because everybody's freaked out and at home trying to figure things out. So that was kind of a rocky beginning to that. But during that time, you know, wrote a couple of songs and edging into the end of twenty twenty, had shopped some things around. Like nobody wanted to do anything because I think there was a lot of uncertainty, But there were a lot of labels who were kind of like, yeah, we're not really trying to get anybody on our label right now. We don't know what's going to I think it was the uncertainty about touring and how people would like make a return on their investment. But that was definitely a that was a humbling experience. It was like, oh right, it's not two thousand and eight. Nobody cares nobody, nobody cares about what I'm making and that's fine, which is fine, but you know, kind of got it together, put some more demos together, and thought about Subpop because they are one of the labels that made me deeply interested in music, and also.

Basically I started writing these demos in twenty nineteen when TV on the Radio took a break, and then when I started to really get into it and decide like, Okay, I'm gonna maybe look around for some producers to collaborate with or some folks that collaborate with the pandemic hit and it was kind of like, I'm not looking around to do anything with anybody because everybody's freaked out and at home trying to figure things out. So that was kind of a rocky beginning to that. But during that time, you know, wrote a couple of songs and edging into the end of twenty twenty, had shopped some things around. Like nobody wanted to do anything because I think there was a lot of uncertainty, But there were a lot of labels who were kind of like, yeah, we're not really trying to get anybody on our label right now. We don't know what's going to I think it was the uncertainty about touring and how people would like make a return on their investment. But that was definitely a that was a humbling experience. It was like, oh right, it's not two thousand and eight. Nobody cares nobody, nobody cares about what I'm making and that's fine, which is fine, but you know, kind of got it together, put some more demos together, and thought about Subpop because they are one of the labels that made me deeply interested in music, and also.

Just the really.

Just the really.

Foundational feeling of you can you don't have to be of virtuo, so you can make whatever you want, just finish it. You know, it's kind of the the mode and you also you know, it's it's very expansive.

Foundational feeling of you can you don't have to be of virtuo, so you can make whatever you want, just finish it. You know, it's kind of the the mode and you also you know, it's it's very expansive.

Yeah, it was a lot of teenage teenage.

Yeah, it was a lot of teenage teenage.

Jet fuel from Subpop for me and Yeah, so we finally called them and they essentially said, it'd be so great to work with you. We wanted to work with you and the band forever, which was not a piece of information that made it to me until I was talking to them. I was just like, if you if I'd known that, like, you know, a long while ago, it probably would have happened. So they were really very down for it, and two weeks after I signed with them and they were, you know, into making the record. My sister, my younger sister passed away very very suddenly, like out of nowhere, and this is the person who, I will say, without any hesitation, was like easily the most important person to me in my life, you know, like sorry everyone, sorry, everybody else. Yeah, that's that's the that's the the case. Sorry, yeah, thank you.

Jet fuel from Subpop for me and Yeah, so we finally called them and they essentially said, it'd be so great to work with you. We wanted to work with you and the band forever, which was not a piece of information that made it to me until I was talking to them. I was just like, if you if I'd known that, like, you know, a long while ago, it probably would have happened. So they were really very down for it, and two weeks after I signed with them and they were, you know, into making the record. My sister, my younger sister passed away very very suddenly, like out of nowhere, and this is the person who, I will say, without any hesitation, was like easily the most important person to me in my life, you know, like sorry everyone, sorry, everybody else. Yeah, that's that's the that's the the case. Sorry, yeah, thank you.

Yeah. It was heavy, you know, really a bizarre thing.

Yeah. It was heavy, you know, really a bizarre thing.

She was not you know, was not ill, was not There was no lead up to it, so that, you know, going from I've got this record to make, I just signed, and like people are expecting something in a matter of months going to I don't want to do anything like at all. I have to actually stop doing almost anything and just kind of you know, like regroup and take some time, you know, to actually process a lot of that, because that was one of those things, you know, and during I think people had a lot of time to think in the thicker pandemic.

She was not you know, was not ill, was not There was no lead up to it, so that, you know, going from I've got this record to make, I just signed, and like people are expecting something in a matter of months going to I don't want to do anything like at all. I have to actually stop doing almost anything and just kind of you know, like regroup and take some time, you know, to actually process a lot of that, because that was one of those things, you know, and during I think people had a lot of time to think in the thicker pandemic.

Of just like what is my.

Of just like what is my.

Life still and think and have and they're they're also I think during that time there were a couple of other losses that I hadn't really processed that had happened in the last ten years, and I realized I hadn't really processed them because I was essentially in this band that was putting out a record and going on tour and putting out a record and going on tour, putting out a record and going on tour, and then pandemic hits and this big loss hits, and it's a lot of just kind of not I don't know if not running away is the right way to put it, but just suddenly having time and in that, you know, in the negative space of that time, all of this stuff comes rushing in and you have there's no opportunity for you to not think about it. So that was a big My sister passing was a big thing. But the other side of that is, you know, this person is such a humongous inspiration to me. The thing that they would want me to do, Yes, to keep going and and writing and do yeah, do the thing that like, you know, my sister also was a musician and and acted, and just do the thing that bonded over and keep going. And she would be like, don't you can't. You cannot fucking quit because then you would be a loser. She's like, and we are not losers.

Life still and think and have and they're they're also I think during that time there were a couple of other losses that I hadn't really processed that had happened in the last ten years, and I realized I hadn't really processed them because I was essentially in this band that was putting out a record and going on tour and putting out a record and going on tour, putting out a record and going on tour, and then pandemic hits and this big loss hits, and it's a lot of just kind of not I don't know if not running away is the right way to put it, but just suddenly having time and in that, you know, in the negative space of that time, all of this stuff comes rushing in and you have there's no opportunity for you to not think about it. So that was a big My sister passing was a big thing. But the other side of that is, you know, this person is such a humongous inspiration to me. The thing that they would want me to do, Yes, to keep going and and writing and do yeah, do the thing that like, you know, my sister also was a musician and and acted, and just do the thing that bonded over and keep going. And she would be like, don't you can't. You cannot fucking quit because then you would be a loser. She's like, and we are not losers.

We don't.

We don't.

Our family doesn't do that. So there's this There is a song on the on the record that's dedicated to her. The record is dedicated to her and and to other family members.

Our family doesn't do that. So there's this There is a song on the on the record that's dedicated to her. The record is dedicated to her and and to other family members.

That which song is that I can see the track list on Spotify.

That which song is that I can see the track list on Spotify.

It's all great out. We can't hear it, but we can see it.

It's all great out. We can't hear it, but we can see it.

It's the song it's just called It's called il y just I love you.

It's the song it's just called It's called il y just I love you.

Oh yeah, yeah, very very simple note to her and to thank you to her.

Oh yeah, yeah, very very simple note to her and to thank you to her.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So how has the grief evolved now that it's you've had a little bit of time, You know.

So how has the grief evolved now that it's you've had a little bit of time, You know.

If you've experienced it pretty significant loss, you know that it doesn't it just it gets better in some ways. But more than that, I think it just changes and it it sinks. It sinks into a place where it's on the level as on the same level as the positive memories of this person or the positive aspects of of your life. But I will say that making something that feels like you're you know, that's a tribute to these people that you love, or an offering to these people, to the spirits of these people that you that you love and lost, is it really? At least for me, is was very therapeutic. And I don't I don't think. I don't think art always has to be that at all, but in this case, for me, it definitely, it definitely was, you know, and it was something to do besides the any number of horrible things that you could be doing to yourself totally to avoid pain or grief.

If you've experienced it pretty significant loss, you know that it doesn't it just it gets better in some ways. But more than that, I think it just changes and it it sinks. It sinks into a place where it's on the level as on the same level as the positive memories of this person or the positive aspects of of your life. But I will say that making something that feels like you're you know, that's a tribute to these people that you love, or an offering to these people, to the spirits of these people that you that you love and lost, is it really? At least for me, is was very therapeutic. And I don't I don't think. I don't think art always has to be that at all, but in this case, for me, it definitely, it definitely was, you know, and it was something to do besides the any number of horrible things that you could be doing to yourself totally to avoid pain or grief.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, No, being constructive and continuing to work seems like it could have a big benefit.

Yeah, No, being constructive and continuing to work seems like it could have a big benefit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it seems like you have like a really healthy work ethic, And it sounds like your sister did as well.

And it seems like you have like a really healthy work ethic, And it sounds like your sister did as well.

She definitely more than me. But yeah, when I get around to it, I've got I've got a.

She definitely more than me. But yeah, when I get around to it, I've got I've got a.

Pretty health Yeah.

Pretty health Yeah.

Where do you think the drive comes from?

Where do you think the drive comes from?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I feel like it's kind of like what else am I gonna do? There's a lot of it. And I think if you conditioned yourself to put your whether you know you're doing it or not.

I feel like it's kind of like what else am I gonna do? There's a lot of it. And I think if you conditioned yourself to put your whether you know you're doing it or not.

To put your.

To put your.

Messy feelings or bombastic feelings or basically any way, that you kind of can't be in this Like you can't run around screaming your head off about you know, how wronged you've been, you know, by someone, or how excited you are, or how you can revel in the nonsense of this world and events and people and feelings. But I think if you just through making art, if you kind of if that's your way of processing the world or making yes, that's your anchor in the world, is to be like at least I can write it down, or at least I can draw it, or at least I can get a few friends together and make a short film about it. Then all of it kind of makes sense. All of the shit that doesn't make sense, this is a place for it to make its own.

Messy feelings or bombastic feelings or basically any way, that you kind of can't be in this Like you can't run around screaming your head off about you know, how wronged you've been, you know, by someone, or how excited you are, or how you can revel in the nonsense of this world and events and people and feelings. But I think if you just through making art, if you kind of if that's your way of processing the world or making yes, that's your anchor in the world, is to be like at least I can write it down, or at least I can draw it, or at least I can get a few friends together and make a short film about it. Then all of it kind of makes sense. All of the shit that doesn't make sense, this is a place for it to make its own.

Kind of sense.

Kind of sense.

When you guys, So, when TV on the Radio first started making music together, how long did it take for you to sound like TV on the Radio?

When you guys, So, when TV on the Radio first started making music together, how long did it take for you to sound like TV on the Radio?

I feel like it's debatable because I I feel like there's so many different ways to sound like TV on the Radio and it kind.

I feel like it's debatable because I I feel like there's so many different ways to sound like TV on the Radio and it kind.

Of kept evolving.

Of kept evolving.

It did.

It did.

Hopefully we'll keep evolving.

Hopefully we'll keep evolving.

But you know, the first thing that came out under the name TV on the Radio is pretty like probably a few months after Dave and I met Dave Sidek. When I met, we both had all these four track tapes just weirdo stuff that we'd made, and when that was kind of our point of like, you know, meeting and friendship is that we were both painters and both like made silly four track stuff or not so silly four track stuff. And that was a compilation of that four track stuff, which was all over the place and some songs that were a little more I guess, like quote unquote produced that we made together. And to me that sounded like TV on the radio. It's like, this can be recorded in a basement with like one mic, or it can be recorded in like a super cheap studio with you know, equipment present. And then and then with the Young Liar's EP, it got more real bandy yeah, and that to me is also like you know, that's to me, I guess would be the a solid a solid version of the first iteration of a TV on the radio sign and then desperate youth. Like we didn't know what we were doing, so it was kind of like, is.

But you know, the first thing that came out under the name TV on the Radio is pretty like probably a few months after Dave and I met Dave Sidek. When I met, we both had all these four track tapes just weirdo stuff that we'd made, and when that was kind of our point of like, you know, meeting and friendship is that we were both painters and both like made silly four track stuff or not so silly four track stuff. And that was a compilation of that four track stuff, which was all over the place and some songs that were a little more I guess, like quote unquote produced that we made together. And to me that sounded like TV on the radio. It's like, this can be recorded in a basement with like one mic, or it can be recorded in like a super cheap studio with you know, equipment present. And then and then with the Young Liar's EP, it got more real bandy yeah, and that to me is also like you know, that's to me, I guess would be the a solid a solid version of the first iteration of a TV on the radio sign and then desperate youth. Like we didn't know what we were doing, so it was kind of like, is.

That why there's like two titles for the album?

That why there's like two titles for the album?

Well, yeah, yeah, it's that, And just like I feel like in a lot of ways, it was a step backwards because we didn't know what we were doing. Not in a bad way really, but just like kind of in a way of like, well what are we doing? Because we went from working occasionally on this thing that turned into an EP that might have been a longer record, except that someone heard it and wanted to put it out and then yeah, they're like, we're giving you a record deal, so let's make the next thing right now, and we're sort of like, I don't know what that is.

Well, yeah, yeah, it's that, And just like I feel like in a lot of ways, it was a step backwards because we didn't know what we were doing. Not in a bad way really, but just like kind of in a way of like, well what are we doing? Because we went from working occasionally on this thing that turned into an EP that might have been a longer record, except that someone heard it and wanted to put it out and then yeah, they're like, we're giving you a record deal, so let's make the next thing right now, and we're sort of like, I don't know what that is.

It's like, I don't know how to you know, Like.

It's like, I don't know how to you know, Like.

At least my my observation from it was there was a certain amount of new panic about what needed to happen and ideas about what it should be, and all.

At least my my observation from it was there was a certain amount of new panic about what needed to happen and ideas about what it should be, and all.

Of that was that like inner band conversations or from the outside.

Of that was that like inner band conversations or from the outside.

I think from both.

I think from both.

Just what should this be now instead of just making it and saying that's what it is, you know, because what should this be? As a real waste of time, yeah, you don't know.

Just what should this be now instead of just making it and saying that's what it is, you know, because what should this be? As a real waste of time, yeah, you don't know.

But then after that.

But then after that.

Cookie Mountain became that's when you know, we we we locked in. We locked ourselves in and we locked in, and then that turned into a new iteration of the sound. But I, you know, I guess I would I would probably say, like the first EP was pretty pretty locked down at least on on the recordings.

Cookie Mountain became that's when you know, we we we locked in. We locked ourselves in and we locked in, and then that turned into a new iteration of the sound. But I, you know, I guess I would I would probably say, like the first EP was pretty pretty locked down at least on on the recordings.

Did you do you like it? The first EP?

Did you do you like it? The first EP?

I really liked it?

I really liked it?

Yeah, which was no, it was and it's a real you know it marks a certain spot in time, just like emotionally and yeah, just feeling feeling wise, it's I actually haven't listened to I haven't listened to anything that we've done in its entirety, Like I'll listen to it when it's done being mixed and mastered probably I'll listen to everything the whole way through, but I haven't looked, so I haven't listened to Young Liars like since in its entirety since it came out, But.

Yeah, which was no, it was and it's a real you know it marks a certain spot in time, just like emotionally and yeah, just feeling feeling wise, it's I actually haven't listened to I haven't listened to anything that we've done in its entirety, Like I'll listen to it when it's done being mixed and mastered probably I'll listen to everything the whole way through, but I haven't looked, so I haven't listened to Young Liars like since in its entirety since it came out, But.

So why not just like throw it on one day? Like it's what's the why not listen to it?

So why not just like throw it on one day? Like it's what's the why not listen to it?

Because I feel like that you know that the touch was that.

Because I feel like that you know that the touch was that.

There's a Christopher Walking Home movie is it the Dead Zone where touches people and suddenly like flood of emotions and like you can see everything that's happened to them and will happen to them. It's kind of like that where it's like, oh, something like oh this is good, and then I'll like hear one thing and just be like, oh, what a terrible time that was where I did this and did that and all that.

There's a Christopher Walking Home movie is it the Dead Zone where touches people and suddenly like flood of emotions and like you can see everything that's happened to them and will happen to them. It's kind of like that where it's like, oh, something like oh this is good, and then I'll like hear one thing and just be like, oh, what a terrible time that was where I did this and did that and all that.

But it's less and less. But if I hear it when it's on, if it's on somewhere.

But it's less and less. But if I hear it when it's on, if it's on somewhere.

Yeah, Like I'm never like, I'm very rarely am I cringing about it?

Yeah, Like I'm never like, I'm very rarely am I cringing about it?

Oh that's good.

Oh that's good.

Yeah, But I like I like the fact that we, you know, we got it together and made this thing that didn't I know that people just like, you know, it's like, well, doesn't sound like anything else. And I was like, but that's the point, Like, no one should sound like anything else.

Yeah, But I like I like the fact that we, you know, we got it together and made this thing that didn't I know that people just like, you know, it's like, well, doesn't sound like anything else. And I was like, but that's the point, Like, no one should sound like anything else.

It's so good.

It's so good.

But it's it was also so good be able to make, you know, get it together with your friends and make something that sounded like good and fresh and new to and honest, you know.

But it's it was also so good be able to make, you know, get it together with your friends and make something that sounded like good and fresh and new to and honest, you know.

To you and you knew it was fresh and new when you were making it. Did you have perspective?

To you and you knew it was fresh and new when you were making it. Did you have perspective?

Will? The perspective was kind of.

Will? The perspective was kind of.

And it was weird because it was I think the perspective was it was very shortly after September eleventh that we started making that would ended up being that EP, And I think the deal was this is the this is the most important thing to us right now, is that we can we can create this reality that we can swim in and live in and like energize ourselves with. So it was a you know, for as much of a whatever that whatever mood that that EP puts people in. It was definitely it was an odd kind of pick me up for all of us to work This is you know, this is something something we have control over and it's also something that like we can do anything with. So that was a real that's that's that feeling was inspiring working on.

And it was weird because it was I think the perspective was it was very shortly after September eleventh that we started making that would ended up being that EP, And I think the deal was this is the this is the most important thing to us right now, is that we can we can create this reality that we can swim in and live in and like energize ourselves with. So it was a you know, for as much of a whatever that whatever mood that that EP puts people in. It was definitely it was an odd kind of pick me up for all of us to work This is you know, this is something something we have control over and it's also something that like we can do anything with. So that was a real that's that's that feeling was inspiring working on.

Oh, totally. Yeah, empowering.

Oh, totally. Yeah, empowering.

Yeah, that's a similar to what you were saying about the grief with your new album is having sort of some you know, like a creative life raft at the time, something to focus on and something to pour you know, pour yourself into and.

Yeah, that's a similar to what you were saying about the grief with your new album is having sort of some you know, like a creative life raft at the time, something to focus on and something to pour you know, pour yourself into and.

Process emotion through.

Process emotion through.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great thing, great thing to have. I saw when I was just like getting ready for this interview, I saw that Spotify, you know, Spotify makes different playlists and they have a cover image for the playlists, and I saw that TV on the Radio is the cover image for the Indie Sleeves playlist. Really, yes, right now? What does that make sure it's your new it's a new promo picture.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great thing, great thing to have. I saw when I was just like getting ready for this interview, I saw that Spotify, you know, Spotify makes different playlists and they have a cover image for the playlists, and I saw that TV on the Radio is the cover image for the Indie Sleeves playlist. Really, yes, right now? What does that make sure it's your new it's a new promo picture.

Yeah, it's Is it a black and white picture?

Yeah, it's Is it a black and white picture?

Might be.

Might be.

That's where the we're the delegates from Indie Sleeves.

That's where the we're the delegates from Indie Sleeves.

Yes, So I'm wondering now that, like, you know, I don't know if you saw that yacht.

Yes, So I'm wondering now that, like, you know, I don't know if you saw that yacht.

Rock documentary, No, I want to.

Rock documentary, No, I want to.

It's really great, but it turns out a lot of people who were considered yacht rock, which is a term that was made up by like a online comedy group, a lot of the people who are in that category, that that genre, you know, don't like that, don't like that classification. So I'm wondering for you now, sitting where you're sitting, like, how does how does Indi Sleis sit in twenty twenty five?

It's really great, but it turns out a lot of people who were considered yacht rock, which is a term that was made up by like a online comedy group, a lot of the people who are in that category, that that genre, you know, don't like that, don't like that classification. So I'm wondering for you now, sitting where you're sitting, like, how does how does Indi Sleis sit in twenty twenty five?

And was it even real? Is it a thing?

And was it even real? Is it a thing?

I don't know. I don't Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't Yeah, I don't know.

I uh, It's really it's interesting to me because I think when you're in something, it's also very odd because you like, I'll never have the bird's eye view of someone who, like, twenty years later can look at whatever set of images, whatever set of songs or records or you know, the first person accounts or rock critic reviews, like, I'll never have that overview. It kind of just my overview is I started making stuff with my friends, and we went to see other friends who made stuff with their friends.

I uh, It's really it's interesting to me because I think when you're in something, it's also very odd because you like, I'll never have the bird's eye view of someone who, like, twenty years later can look at whatever set of images, whatever set of songs or records or you know, the first person accounts or rock critic reviews, like, I'll never have that overview. It kind of just my overview is I started making stuff with my friends, and we went to see other friends who made stuff with their friends.

Yeah, and we all.

Yeah, and we all.

And no one had a cell phone there wasn't any internet. We got to we got to kind of we had really cheap rent and got to make things. Yeah, but I personally don't feel like our band was cool enough to be part of the indie sleeves.

And no one had a cell phone there wasn't any internet. We got to we got to kind of we had really cheap rent and got to make things. Yeah, but I personally don't feel like our band was cool enough to be part of the indie sleeves.

See. I just don't. I don't. I didn't see it.

See. I just don't. I don't. I didn't see it.

But there's also one of those things where people talk about Electroclash, and I feel like the Electroclash movement was like five weekends at this bar called Luxe and then it was that was it.

But there's also one of those things where people talk about Electroclash, and I feel like the Electroclash movement was like five weekends at this bar called Luxe and then it was that was it.

It was over, you know, but it was.

It was over, you know, but it was.

This holding just like Electroclash, like you know, blew through Blue through New York.

This holding just like Electroclash, like you know, blew through Blue through New York.

It was this huge movement.

It was this huge movement.

I was like, at least Williamsburgers.

I was like, at least Williamsburgers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know, it is it's it's funny, it is. It's funny to me to see that that's a thing because it makes me think about it makes me think about Seattle and Grudge and or.

So I don't know, it is it's it's funny, it is. It's funny to me to see that that's a thing because it makes me think about it makes me think about Seattle and Grudge and or.

Even like the Summer of Love.

Even like the Summer of Love.

You know, that was also a pretty short period that is like, oh my gosh, we're still talking about it.

You know, that was also a pretty short period that is like, oh my gosh, we're still talking about it.

And we're still talking about it, and I don't.

And we're still talking about it, and I don't.

I mean, and I'm sure like if you talk to someone from when that was happening. They can give you a list of you know, you felt like something was going on, but it's also the I feel like with us and our and I'm you know, I guess like speaking from myself, but the feeling that all of that stuff was active and alive and fleet and not something that like like we're making the stuff that we're gonna preserve in a glass case and it's gonna stand the test of time. Like I feel like it was very much this is immediate moment to moment.

I mean, and I'm sure like if you talk to someone from when that was happening. They can give you a list of you know, you felt like something was going on, but it's also the I feel like with us and our and I'm you know, I guess like speaking from myself, but the feeling that all of that stuff was active and alive and fleet and not something that like like we're making the stuff that we're gonna preserve in a glass case and it's gonna stand the test of time. Like I feel like it was very much this is immediate moment to moment.

After one last quick break, we're back with the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bemba.

After one last quick break, we're back with the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bemba.

I'm sure you you are aware of this, but Wolf, like me, was playing at the Super Bowl.

I'm sure you you are aware of this, but Wolf, like me, was playing at the Super Bowl.

Yeah, now, I heard a friend told me that too, which is was it in a It's It's weird. It's one of those things where you'll get an email like like three or four years ago or something saying just like we're going to use this for a commercial for fifteen seconds or whatever, and you're like, okay, that's that, and then you'd have no idea where it shows up.

Yeah, now, I heard a friend told me that too, which is was it in a It's It's weird. It's one of those things where you'll get an email like like three or four years ago or something saying just like we're going to use this for a commercial for fifteen seconds or whatever, and you're like, okay, that's that, and then you'd have no idea where it shows up.

Is that like a nice check though? Like is that a good thing?

Is that like a nice check though? Like is that a good thing?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I mean, I don't know how many times they played it.

I mean, I don't know how many times they played it.

I think I saw so I looked it up on Reddit and apparently, I guess Fox NFL plays it in their broadcasts.

I think I saw so I looked it up on Reddit and apparently, I guess Fox NFL plays it in their broadcasts.

Okay, I mean, is it a nice check? I don't know. I guess we'll see, but I it's a check.

Okay, I mean, is it a nice check? I don't know. I guess we'll see, but I it's a check.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's nice.

It's a check. It's also like, I don't know, I got laundry lists, I got subscriptions and issues with all of that stuff. But I'm glad people are hearing the song. The vessel isn't always awesome.

It's a check. It's also like, I don't know, I got laundry lists, I got subscriptions and issues with all of that stuff. But I'm glad people are hearing the song. The vessel isn't always awesome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, but.

I'm glad people are hearing the song. Yeah.

I'm glad people are hearing the song. Yeah.

Did you have an expectation, because I know, growing up you've always been into art, You've always drawn. Did you have an expectation at any point to make money or was it like a total surprise.

Did you have an expectation, because I know, growing up you've always been into art, You've always drawn. Did you have an expectation at any point to make money or was it like a total surprise.

I think I've always well, I was in an expectation to have a job. Yeah, to turn it like where I knew. It's like, this isn't a It's not a hobby for me, like for better or or worse, because I'm incapable of doing anything else, you know, like well or just this is what I've been doing and what I want to do. But you know, you have examples that like when I the first thing I thought I was going to do was make comics, like make underground comics or you know, at first I think it was much younger. I was like, I'm going to do a comic strip like Helvin Hobbs.

I think I've always well, I was in an expectation to have a job. Yeah, to turn it like where I knew. It's like, this isn't a It's not a hobby for me, like for better or or worse, because I'm incapable of doing anything else, you know, like well or just this is what I've been doing and what I want to do. But you know, you have examples that like when I the first thing I thought I was going to do was make comics, like make underground comics or you know, at first I think it was much younger. I was like, I'm going to do a comic strip like Helvin Hobbs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Of course, like telling my dad that, who's like an immigrant from Nigeria who grew up in a village and worked his way up to being like, you know, a medical director and a hospital somewhere. He's like, well, how are you going to make money? Yeah, And I said, I don't know, I don't know. Do people make money doing that? He said, of course, And then he would, you know, actually be like here's the just there's actually a book in the library that shows what commercial artists make, and here's what a comic strip artist makes, poor strip. Here's who you write to to get all this stuff. And so there was always this idea of just like, there's a way to make Yeah, this thing I want to do, like I would, I will have to hustle and make money doing it. But I also never like and I Bill, you know, was never There's never any part of me that was like I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to make.

Of course, like telling my dad that, who's like an immigrant from Nigeria who grew up in a village and worked his way up to being like, you know, a medical director and a hospital somewhere. He's like, well, how are you going to make money? Yeah, And I said, I don't know, I don't know. Do people make money doing that? He said, of course, And then he would, you know, actually be like here's the just there's actually a book in the library that shows what commercial artists make, and here's what a comic strip artist makes, poor strip. Here's who you write to to get all this stuff. And so there was always this idea of just like, there's a way to make Yeah, this thing I want to do, like I would, I will have to hustle and make money doing it. But I also never like and I Bill, you know, was never There's never any part of me that was like I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to make.

So much money.

So much money.

Yeah, so much money. And that's exactly why I'm going to do it, because I'm going to make so much you know, it's like never it's there's people that I looked up to who you know, like I said, these underground comic artists or even like superhero comic artists where it's just like I make a hundred bucks a page and I turn in thirty pages and I'm like that, you know, and you're like fifteen, and you're like that sounds great.

Yeah, so much money. And that's exactly why I'm going to do it, because I'm going to make so much you know, it's like never it's there's people that I looked up to who you know, like I said, these underground comic artists or even like superhero comic artists where it's just like I make a hundred bucks a page and I turn in thirty pages and I'm like that, you know, and you're like fifteen, and you're like that sounds great.

You'll realize it's.

You'll realize it's.

Like literally backbreaking work to sit there like a table for like forever to do that. But you know, there's always some idea of like I have to turn this into a job however I can, like I have to support myself doing this thing. And the idea that like you also don't like thinking like about make any kind of being an artist is there's no you don't really retire. Yeah, Like I don't think there's not a point where I'm going to be like, Okay, that's it. I did enough and now I'm going to, like ye sit on the dock of the bay wasting.

Like literally backbreaking work to sit there like a table for like forever to do that. But you know, there's always some idea of like I have to turn this into a job however I can, like I have to support myself doing this thing. And the idea that like you also don't like thinking like about make any kind of being an artist is there's no you don't really retire. Yeah, Like I don't think there's not a point where I'm going to be like, Okay, that's it. I did enough and now I'm going to, like ye sit on the dock of the bay wasting.

Time, go to Margaritaville.

Time, go to Margaritaville.

To watch a million a million sunsets. Yeah no, but but it's.

To watch a million a million sunsets. Yeah no, but but it's.

The there's there's definitely always a part where it's sort of like, I want to be doing this creative work. I want to have this mode of processing, you know, being alive in events and feelings, and I'd like to be able to support myself doing that. And if I'm not able to directly support myself doing this creative work, I'm going to hustle and find something else to support that creative work.

The there's there's definitely always a part where it's sort of like, I want to be doing this creative work. I want to have this mode of processing, you know, being alive in events and feelings, and I'd like to be able to support myself doing that. And if I'm not able to directly support myself doing this creative work, I'm going to hustle and find something else to support that creative work.

Yep. How did you get a job at Celebrity Deathmatch? How did that happen? And what were you doing there?

Yep. How did you get a job at Celebrity Deathmatch? How did that happen? And what were you doing there?

I was animating. I was making puppets beat the shit out of each other for a few years. Yeah, making, That's what I was doing at Deathmatch. And I got the job because I was at the school in New York as at NYU, and I went there for live action directing, and within two years realized that I was really not it was not a good director because I didn't feel comfortable telling people what to do.

I was animating. I was making puppets beat the shit out of each other for a few years. Yeah, making, That's what I was doing at Deathmatch. And I got the job because I was at the school in New York as at NYU, and I went there for live action directing, and within two years realized that I was really not it was not a good director because I didn't feel comfortable telling people what to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would just be like, here's a scenario, just just like do what you want? Yeah, do you want?

I would just be like, here's a scenario, just just like do what you want? Yeah, do you want?

And I'll just you know, we'll film it and we'll edit it, and it'll be what it's it'll be what it's going to be. You know, everyone's like in their like teens and early twenties and like no one's listening to each other. And I was kind of like, I don't want it's just it was it wasn't for me. And since I you know, like drawing and animating, I ended up going into stop motion like yeah, my junior, and uh really like loving it, you know, like I think I saw the Nightment before Christmas.