Pushkin.

Pushkin.

In the thirty plus years since Billy Corgan hit it big as the lead singer songwriter of the Smashing Pumpkins, He's become many things. The owner of the National Wrestling Alliance NWA, a father and a husband, and an outspoken advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, proving to be both eloquent and controversial. Corgan is now hosting his own long form interview podcast called The Magnificent Others, where he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne, and Gene Simmons. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected the alternative music ethos in the nineties, and the subset of his fan base that he calls Siamese zombies. This is broken Record musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose with Billy Corgan. You can see the full video of this interview on our YouTube page YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast.

In the thirty plus years since Billy Corgan hit it big as the lead singer songwriter of the Smashing Pumpkins, He's become many things. The owner of the National Wrestling Alliance NWA, a father and a husband, and an outspoken advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, proving to be both eloquent and controversial. Corgan is now hosting his own long form interview podcast called The Magnificent Others, where he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne, and Gene Simmons. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected the alternative music ethos in the nineties, and the subset of his fan base that he calls Siamese zombies. This is broken Record musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose with Billy Corgan. You can see the full video of this interview on our YouTube page YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast.

So I was thinking about this is actually a really exciting time to talk to you because I'm super interested about your approach to your podcast, and it's especially interesting for me because this is actually something I can relate to. And you know, I feel like when I talk to musicians, I find what they do absolutely extraordinary because I cannot do any of it. But this I can sort of, like, you know, sort of understand how you might be feeling around these things. So I'm really curious about your approach to interviewing because you've been interviewed for over thirty years now, So when you decided to take on this project, how did you approach it?

So I was thinking about this is actually a really exciting time to talk to you because I'm super interested about your approach to your podcast, and it's especially interesting for me because this is actually something I can relate to. And you know, I feel like when I talk to musicians, I find what they do absolutely extraordinary because I cannot do any of it. But this I can sort of, like, you know, sort of understand how you might be feeling around these things. So I'm really curious about your approach to interviewing because you've been interviewed for over thirty years now, So when you decided to take on this project, how did you approach it?

Well, I think the simplest version is I just try to have the same type of conversation I would have with somebody behind the scenes, and of course you're where there's a camera and you're of course you're ware of the concept of time. But I've seen in some comments. I don't really read comments, but people will send me things and you get a sense of what's happening. The people who do like the format that the show is in appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel, which I would point to That's the kind of conversation I would have with a Diane Warren if we were sitting privately somewhere I would be asking the same types of questions with the same type of kind of back and forth thing. For people who don't understand it, they seem to be confused that I'm just after what would be called a normal interview format where some of his erudite you asked me a question. I just bloviate on for four minutes, and some people take the back and forth patois the thing is disrespect. It's the complete opposite. I really feel that there's so much that gets lost in the translation of conversation because I've been interviewed for thirty five years now that I'm really after something that's almost indefinable. And that's not to say I'm better at it than anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled at it at all. But I have an intuitive sense of the way an artist mind works, Yes, even if it's not mine, and that's born out over now over I think twenty five interviews, there's a commonality in the sense of an inner and an outer experience most interviews, and it's no disrespect to you or anybody else. They focus on the outer experience because that's the thing that's readily apparent it's sort of in evidence. The inner life of an artist is oft less explode but is the thing that I find utterly fascinating. For example, on this interview that I just did with Diane Warren and for people don't know, one of the greatest songwriters ever, nine number one hit songs, thirty three top ten songs, and the list of people who've recorded her songs, I mean is a who's who are the greatest vocalists of all time. It's really a stunning set of accomplishments. And yet if you look at the interview record, there's not a lot about this woman's interior life.

Well, I think the simplest version is I just try to have the same type of conversation I would have with somebody behind the scenes, and of course you're where there's a camera and you're of course you're ware of the concept of time. But I've seen in some comments. I don't really read comments, but people will send me things and you get a sense of what's happening. The people who do like the format that the show is in appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel, which I would point to That's the kind of conversation I would have with a Diane Warren if we were sitting privately somewhere I would be asking the same types of questions with the same type of kind of back and forth thing. For people who don't understand it, they seem to be confused that I'm just after what would be called a normal interview format where some of his erudite you asked me a question. I just bloviate on for four minutes, and some people take the back and forth patois the thing is disrespect. It's the complete opposite. I really feel that there's so much that gets lost in the translation of conversation because I've been interviewed for thirty five years now that I'm really after something that's almost indefinable. And that's not to say I'm better at it than anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled at it at all. But I have an intuitive sense of the way an artist mind works, Yes, even if it's not mine, and that's born out over now over I think twenty five interviews, there's a commonality in the sense of an inner and an outer experience most interviews, and it's no disrespect to you or anybody else. They focus on the outer experience because that's the thing that's readily apparent it's sort of in evidence. The inner life of an artist is oft less explode but is the thing that I find utterly fascinating. For example, on this interview that I just did with Diane Warren and for people don't know, one of the greatest songwriters ever, nine number one hit songs, thirty three top ten songs, and the list of people who've recorded her songs, I mean is a who's who are the greatest vocalists of all time. It's really a stunning set of accomplishments. And yet if you look at the interview record, there's not a lot about this woman's interior life.

Yes, and her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting.

Yes, and her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting.

It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality in the world that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her, I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in plain sight, fifteen hundred songs in counting, and by the way, no sign of letting up. She oh no, heeddle to the metal as an artist in in residence. Yeah, I'm like, give me even just a kernel of what goes on in there that allows this diamond mind of your spirit to continually produce works that are not only at the top of their particular field, but speak universally yes in a way that I've rarely approached as an artist. That's fascinating. I could do nineteen hours on that. I mean, it would bore the hell out of the audience and it would probably bore the hell out of Diane. For me, this is everything.

It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality in the world that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her, I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in plain sight, fifteen hundred songs in counting, and by the way, no sign of letting up. She oh no, heeddle to the metal as an artist in in residence. Yeah, I'm like, give me even just a kernel of what goes on in there that allows this diamond mind of your spirit to continually produce works that are not only at the top of their particular field, but speak universally yes in a way that I've rarely approached as an artist. That's fascinating. I could do nineteen hours on that. I mean, it would bore the hell out of the audience and it would probably bore the hell out of Diane. For me, this is everything.

Do you think as an interviewer. I've heard Terry Gross talk about this that in every interview she does, she's motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find that through these conversations you're trying to learn about yourself or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person, The person in front of you's inner life and you know their creative process.

Do you think as an interviewer. I've heard Terry Gross talk about this that in every interview she does, she's motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find that through these conversations you're trying to learn about yourself or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person, The person in front of you's inner life and you know their creative process.

One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right. It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions about a set of things is accurate. But the charm there because I'm I'm okay with being wrong, because in this case I have the subject right in front of me to tell me, no, you're wrong, you got that totally wrong. It's like, okay, great, because I really do want to know that that is the supreme effort is knowledge. If anybody knows enneagrams, I'm a five and fives are all about collecting information. That's how we feel safe in the world. So the more I can kind of confirm my worldview, and in this case with you know, people of world class talent and ability or life story in a weird kind of way, it confirms that my read on the world is actually fairly accurate. And as an artist type, I've been told my whole life that my perspective on the world is either wrong, overly dramatic, overwrought, you know, just calm down and just kind of get in line type of stuff. But I think has been born out over the last twenty or thirty years with social media that people's interior lives are actually a lot more complex than we would have previously thought in prior societies. I mean, there was always indication of it, and of course what people would read, whether it would be Hemiway or Dickens or you know, Jane Austen or something. You know, there's obviously rich interior lives, but now it lives on continual display Yeah, and maybe we're entering in age now and you know, maybe you know the Age of Aquarius or something, but we're entering an age now where maybe there's going to be more introspection on people's actual internal lives or interior lives and how they actually play into their behavior.

One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right. It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions about a set of things is accurate. But the charm there because I'm I'm okay with being wrong, because in this case I have the subject right in front of me to tell me, no, you're wrong, you got that totally wrong. It's like, okay, great, because I really do want to know that that is the supreme effort is knowledge. If anybody knows enneagrams, I'm a five and fives are all about collecting information. That's how we feel safe in the world. So the more I can kind of confirm my worldview, and in this case with you know, people of world class talent and ability or life story in a weird kind of way, it confirms that my read on the world is actually fairly accurate. And as an artist type, I've been told my whole life that my perspective on the world is either wrong, overly dramatic, overwrought, you know, just calm down and just kind of get in line type of stuff. But I think has been born out over the last twenty or thirty years with social media that people's interior lives are actually a lot more complex than we would have previously thought in prior societies. I mean, there was always indication of it, and of course what people would read, whether it would be Hemiway or Dickens or you know, Jane Austen or something. You know, there's obviously rich interior lives, but now it lives on continual display Yeah, and maybe we're entering in age now and you know, maybe you know the Age of Aquarius or something, but we're entering an age now where maybe there's going to be more introspection on people's actual internal lives or interior lives and how they actually play into their behavior.

That would be nice, I would hope, because I would skeptical, but that would be nice.

That would be nice, I would hope, because I would skeptical, but that would be nice.

Well, God blessed, But I would like to make the simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily available to them, the less violent a planet we would live on.

Well, God blessed, But I would like to make the simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily available to them, the less violent a planet we would live on.

Yeah. Have you had the experience yet of someone who cannot be drawn out, someone who doesn't know how to explain their inner life, someone who, I know a lot of artists express their inner lives through their art. Have you had and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent about your creative process. Have you sat across from someone who just does not know how to explain it?

Yeah. Have you had the experience yet of someone who cannot be drawn out, someone who doesn't know how to explain their inner life, someone who, I know a lot of artists express their inner lives through their art. Have you had and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent about your creative process. Have you sat across from someone who just does not know how to explain it?

Yeah? And I think that's totally fine, because at the end of the day, their perspective trump's mind. I'm really in service to tell their story, and that's where people misunderstand what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine who knows me pretty well. Do you think I'm talking too much? Or you think I'm talking too much about myself? And they said, no, No, that's how you are in life, and what you do is you create kind of commonality. And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying to say I think I understand is what I'm sharing relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better about it, because at times it does feel to me like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating. And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says in the interview, like I don't really think about a lot of the steps that you're asking me. Yeah, but there were about two or three instances in the interview, which is about an hour long, where she initially kind of gives me an answer which says I don't really think about that or that's not really I say something, and then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me something that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the AGA pay moment of like, Okay, that's exactly what I'm after. I'm not asking somebody who doesn't really know me in the case Diane, we had met before. But I'm not asking someone to walk into a st and throw open the door to everything. I don't I think that's really fair. But if they're willing to just crack that door open a little bit here and there, I think. I know I gained such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes, because the ability to look and see that beautiful engine. And I know not everybody believes in God, but as somebody who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with the magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different every soul on this planet is. That I would include that even into our pets, which is even feels like a like an unfair word. You know, in our house we have three cats and a dog and two fish. And if you spend any time with animals in your home, of course you see that they have very different personalities. Yeah, and they're hardwired in really unique ways. People come to our house and they'll say, all your cats are like dogs. You know, It's like, so, where does that come from? Anyway? I think you understand the point of making.

Yeah? And I think that's totally fine, because at the end of the day, their perspective trump's mind. I'm really in service to tell their story, and that's where people misunderstand what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine who knows me pretty well. Do you think I'm talking too much? Or you think I'm talking too much about myself? And they said, no, No, that's how you are in life, and what you do is you create kind of commonality. And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying to say I think I understand is what I'm sharing relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better about it, because at times it does feel to me like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating. And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says in the interview, like I don't really think about a lot of the steps that you're asking me. Yeah, but there were about two or three instances in the interview, which is about an hour long, where she initially kind of gives me an answer which says I don't really think about that or that's not really I say something, and then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me something that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the AGA pay moment of like, Okay, that's exactly what I'm after. I'm not asking somebody who doesn't really know me in the case Diane, we had met before. But I'm not asking someone to walk into a st and throw open the door to everything. I don't I think that's really fair. But if they're willing to just crack that door open a little bit here and there, I think. I know I gained such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes, because the ability to look and see that beautiful engine. And I know not everybody believes in God, but as somebody who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with the magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different every soul on this planet is. That I would include that even into our pets, which is even feels like a like an unfair word. You know, in our house we have three cats and a dog and two fish. And if you spend any time with animals in your home, of course you see that they have very different personalities. Yeah, and they're hardwired in really unique ways. People come to our house and they'll say, all your cats are like dogs. You know, It's like, so, where does that come from? Anyway? I think you understand the point of making.

Totally Yeah, I was curious, So since in your past with press you sort of like fucked with media. In the beginning of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that it was sort of a performance art project, and a lot of times the band would make things up in interviews. I'm curious where you stand about sort of like digging and creating viral moments to help your show blow up. You know, it's like a very easy thing. It's a cheap thing that you could You could probably do like that. What's your take on that.

Totally Yeah, I was curious, So since in your past with press you sort of like fucked with media. In the beginning of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that it was sort of a performance art project, and a lot of times the band would make things up in interviews. I'm curious where you stand about sort of like digging and creating viral moments to help your show blow up. You know, it's like a very easy thing. It's a cheap thing that you could You could probably do like that. What's your take on that.

I can think of about two or three instances where I went down a particular road with an interview subject on my show and it was like I played baseball as a kid. It was like they threw me a spinning curveball and all I had to do was hit it, yeah, and it was instant clickbait.

I can think of about two or three instances where I went down a particular road with an interview subject on my show and it was like I played baseball as a kid. It was like they threw me a spinning curveball and all I had to do was hit it, yeah, and it was instant clickbait.

Can you tell us who?

Can you tell us who?

I can't remember, honestly, it's just it's just it's an internal feel of like, oops, there it is, and all I gotta do is ask the follow up question or hit this spinning ball in front of my face and there's a viral moment totally, And it's like in all three instances, I was like Nope. I don't want to be on that type of show. Yeah, and I don't want to do that to my guests. I'm a firm believer, and of course the numbers are still out on this, but I'm a firm believer that we are capable of creating a new type of dialogue in American culture. I know it won't be for everybody, because we're dealing with a massive people who are dopamine addicted, but I do believe there's a different type of conversation that can be had. Obviously, it's the twenty first century version of it, but I remember being entranced by conversations when I was a kid on TBS where they would just go on for hours about really wonky stuff. But if you allow yourself to be drawn in, it's this becunded atmosphere of like, wow, not everything is yes or no, black or white, win loup yes. And I think we live in such a bifurcated society right now, where is that tends to be the common metric? Yes, so and so on so and so lost. A moment that really stands out starkly in my mind in American life was I watched one of the presidential debates in the last twenty years, and they went to the you know, the roundtable. I don't remember what network, but they went to the roundtable afterwards, and they were talking about one of the candidate's debate performances. And in the course of the analysis, the person said, I knew they were lying to me, but they did such a good job of lying. And I'd have to say, they did a great job tonight. And I thought, there's like, there's a lightning bolk. I was like, that's it. We live in a society now where you're no longer punished for openly lying. You're rewarded for the artifice of your capability to lie. And in a post truth world. And we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are that are world class avatars. I don't need to name the names. Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars, but they've created these world class avatars that sell perfume and shoes and dresses and albums and you know, stadiums full of people. But I also talked to a lot of young kids who are really kind of almost stung by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artists. But they're almost saying to me, like to quote the Peggy League, is that all there is like is me as I am, disqualify me from the thing that I might want to become. And I went through a very similar thing. And that goes back to us messing with the media. I felt very early on Circuit nineteen eighty nine ninety that who I was was not going to work. That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And what's really sort of interesting is that fifty seven years old, people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person. Yeah, the person is. I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pair, but I'm a well rounded human being, you know, whether it's family or charity work and a tea house and a wrestling company. There's other sides to me besides this rock conteur no pun intended, But people are really in love with the avatar because it sells stuff, even if it's negative clicks.

I can't remember, honestly, it's just it's just it's an internal feel of like, oops, there it is, and all I gotta do is ask the follow up question or hit this spinning ball in front of my face and there's a viral moment totally, And it's like in all three instances, I was like Nope. I don't want to be on that type of show. Yeah, and I don't want to do that to my guests. I'm a firm believer, and of course the numbers are still out on this, but I'm a firm believer that we are capable of creating a new type of dialogue in American culture. I know it won't be for everybody, because we're dealing with a massive people who are dopamine addicted, but I do believe there's a different type of conversation that can be had. Obviously, it's the twenty first century version of it, but I remember being entranced by conversations when I was a kid on TBS where they would just go on for hours about really wonky stuff. But if you allow yourself to be drawn in, it's this becunded atmosphere of like, wow, not everything is yes or no, black or white, win loup yes. And I think we live in such a bifurcated society right now, where is that tends to be the common metric? Yes, so and so on so and so lost. A moment that really stands out starkly in my mind in American life was I watched one of the presidential debates in the last twenty years, and they went to the you know, the roundtable. I don't remember what network, but they went to the roundtable afterwards, and they were talking about one of the candidate's debate performances. And in the course of the analysis, the person said, I knew they were lying to me, but they did such a good job of lying. And I'd have to say, they did a great job tonight. And I thought, there's like, there's a lightning bolk. I was like, that's it. We live in a society now where you're no longer punished for openly lying. You're rewarded for the artifice of your capability to lie. And in a post truth world. And we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are that are world class avatars. I don't need to name the names. Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars, but they've created these world class avatars that sell perfume and shoes and dresses and albums and you know, stadiums full of people. But I also talked to a lot of young kids who are really kind of almost stung by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artists. But they're almost saying to me, like to quote the Peggy League, is that all there is like is me as I am, disqualify me from the thing that I might want to become. And I went through a very similar thing. And that goes back to us messing with the media. I felt very early on Circuit nineteen eighty nine ninety that who I was was not going to work. That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And what's really sort of interesting is that fifty seven years old, people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person. Yeah, the person is. I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pair, but I'm a well rounded human being, you know, whether it's family or charity work and a tea house and a wrestling company. There's other sides to me besides this rock conteur no pun intended, But people are really in love with the avatar because it sells stuff, even if it's negative clicks.

Yeah, does the avatar have anything to do with wrestling? I always saw that as you sort of adopting that same wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top, it's shock value. Does it come from that at all?

Yeah, does the avatar have anything to do with wrestling? I always saw that as you sort of adopting that same wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top, it's shock value. Does it come from that at all?

It came later from that between from the late eighties up until the late nineties, I didn't consciously know that that's what I was doing.

It came later from that between from the late eighties up until the late nineties, I didn't consciously know that that's what I was doing.

Got it.

Got it.

And I was at a wrestling show one night and I and I've talked to a young man for the show who was getting an opportunity, and he was very nervous, and I watched him go out and sort of in a moment of feelty, I wanted to watch and see how he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him, booed and yelled and through stuff. And so when he came back to the curtain, I see empathy, was like, oh, I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain. I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great, and I said, I don't understand. He said, I did my job. They hated me, And it was like this light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh, that's what I do. I'm actually by engendering a response because I used to say the opposite of love is not hate, his apathy.

And I was at a wrestling show one night and I and I've talked to a young man for the show who was getting an opportunity, and he was very nervous, and I watched him go out and sort of in a moment of feelty, I wanted to watch and see how he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him, booed and yelled and through stuff. And so when he came back to the curtain, I see empathy, was like, oh, I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain. I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great, and I said, I don't understand. He said, I did my job. They hated me, And it was like this light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh, that's what I do. I'm actually by engendering a response because I used to say the opposite of love is not hate, his apathy.

But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate denigrate you? And I mean that's got to hurt your soul.

But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate denigrate you? And I mean that's got to hurt your soul.

Totally toxic. Yeah, totally a pyrrhic approach. It's not I do not recommend it for the same thing. But I made my point. The problem is is I've raised my hand in different decades and say, okay, I'm done making my point. I just want to go back to being Bill from Glendale Heights and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, You're in it now, you are this, and so at some point you become your avatar, want to be or not. And I always start every sentence involving that with I created it. It's my responsibility. I know why I created it. I can blame the media or I can blame the teacher in fourth grade, but I did it. So I'm okay with that part of it. But it does get toxic when you literally see and we of course we live in a hyper politicized society. You literally see where people cannot get out of the like no fact will change their opinion, there's no You become kind of part of something that's that's almost inexplicable. It's like they need someone to boo. Yeah, and once you're kind of in the in the in the heel section of the booing, they don't want you to come out of it because you're a really good heel. They did, they eat somebody to be angry at or or or heat on or. Like I told Joe Rogan in this interview that we just did you know about about how at some point I was I felt like I was being made to pay for the sins of the of the generational figures that had left the planet. Yeah, And he was like, I don't really understand that. I was like, I'm expected to carry a flag for people who aren't even here for this amorphous concept of gen X, Yeah, which, by the way, I didn't even I didn't even agree with all those values either. Yeah. And I said it at the time, irrelevant. It's like a like a judge out of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant. You were there, you were there, you were on MTV. You carry this flag whether you want to or not, you know, And that's.

Totally toxic. Yeah, totally a pyrrhic approach. It's not I do not recommend it for the same thing. But I made my point. The problem is is I've raised my hand in different decades and say, okay, I'm done making my point. I just want to go back to being Bill from Glendale Heights and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, You're in it now, you are this, and so at some point you become your avatar, want to be or not. And I always start every sentence involving that with I created it. It's my responsibility. I know why I created it. I can blame the media or I can blame the teacher in fourth grade, but I did it. So I'm okay with that part of it. But it does get toxic when you literally see and we of course we live in a hyper politicized society. You literally see where people cannot get out of the like no fact will change their opinion, there's no You become kind of part of something that's that's almost inexplicable. It's like they need someone to boo. Yeah, and once you're kind of in the in the in the heel section of the booing, they don't want you to come out of it because you're a really good heel. They did, they eat somebody to be angry at or or or heat on or. Like I told Joe Rogan in this interview that we just did you know about about how at some point I was I felt like I was being made to pay for the sins of the of the generational figures that had left the planet. Yeah, And he was like, I don't really understand that. I was like, I'm expected to carry a flag for people who aren't even here for this amorphous concept of gen X, Yeah, which, by the way, I didn't even I didn't even agree with all those values either. Yeah. And I said it at the time, irrelevant. It's like a like a judge out of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant. You were there, you were there, you were on MTV. You carry this flag whether you want to or not, you know, And that's.

Like they didn't even accept me. Oh no, no, I'm the spokesperson.

Like they didn't even accept me. Oh no, no, I'm the spokesperson.

No.

No.

I mean the classic example I always give is the Pumpkins album's got horrible reviews in the in the decade. Now they're all considered classics. But I'm melancholie. I got two and a half stars in Rolling Stone.

I mean the classic example I always give is the Pumpkins album's got horrible reviews in the in the decade. Now they're all considered classics. But I'm melancholie. I got two and a half stars in Rolling Stone.

Wow, what was the reason? What was the argument?

Wow, what was the reason? What was the argument?

I said, it was a piece of shit, an over ambitious piece of shit. Over ambitious, Yeah, I was that's yes, that that was a bad thing to be back then.

I said, it was a piece of shit, an over ambitious piece of shit. Over ambitious, Yeah, I was that's yes, that that was a bad thing to be back then.

Yes. So speaking of gen X, I thought it was so interesting and I saw you sort of have an AHA moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was explaining his theory why there was sort of a rejection of fame during the nineties, and I saw it sort of click for you, and I thought it was really interesting and I wanted to hear more from you about it. But basically he was saying a lot of the artists who ended up getting big in the nineties sort of like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A lot of them were like super and hardcore punk rock. They were into like Fat Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat, but they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest and there's sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something that you and and so when some of those artists like Rage, like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get super big, they felt really guilty and horrible about it.

Yes. So speaking of gen X, I thought it was so interesting and I saw you sort of have an AHA moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was explaining his theory why there was sort of a rejection of fame during the nineties, and I saw it sort of click for you, and I thought it was really interesting and I wanted to hear more from you about it. But basically he was saying a lot of the artists who ended up getting big in the nineties sort of like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A lot of them were like super and hardcore punk rock. They were into like Fat Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat, but they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest and there's sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something that you and and so when some of those artists like Rage, like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get super big, they felt really guilty and horrible about it.

Yes, And I think Tom's point was then they projected that discomfort out into the world the next problems. In my case, I didn't. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community, particularly from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed to behave a certain way because in the rules of alternative music, you had to have a punk rock ethos therefore, or you did not belong. I mean, there is a quote in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says I wasn't punk rocks, Like what the fuck does that mean? And by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor in a university that is an upper middle class position, you know what I mean. Kids who come from actual fewers don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So I had no problem with being successful. I had a problem with people like that projecting on me their ethos of like it's okay to be ambitious as long as you wear the right T shirt, which is all this complete bullshit malarkey. To quote Biden, it's a total bullshit. Again, there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious, ambitious for what my future was working at a record store or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked a lot more attractive to me because it man, I could do what I want to do, and I could go where I want to go. Didn't have a professor father. My father was in a house in Chicago dealing drugs and guns. So for me, it was survival. It's like the choices were stark and simple. So I agreed with Tom that that was definitely at the heart of a lot of those things. But again I think those were in many cases put upon ethics that I did not care for.

Yes, And I think Tom's point was then they projected that discomfort out into the world the next problems. In my case, I didn't. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community, particularly from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed to behave a certain way because in the rules of alternative music, you had to have a punk rock ethos therefore, or you did not belong. I mean, there is a quote in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says I wasn't punk rocks, Like what the fuck does that mean? And by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor in a university that is an upper middle class position, you know what I mean. Kids who come from actual fewers don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So I had no problem with being successful. I had a problem with people like that projecting on me their ethos of like it's okay to be ambitious as long as you wear the right T shirt, which is all this complete bullshit malarkey. To quote Biden, it's a total bullshit. Again, there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious, ambitious for what my future was working at a record store or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked a lot more attractive to me because it man, I could do what I want to do, and I could go where I want to go. Didn't have a professor father. My father was in a house in Chicago dealing drugs and guns. So for me, it was survival. It's like the choices were stark and simple. So I agreed with Tom that that was definitely at the heart of a lot of those things. But again I think those were in many cases put upon ethics that I did not care for.

Yeah, so when did you start talking about your early childhood? When did that come into your story? When did you start making that public? Because that does sort of change the way that maybe people perceive you.

Yeah, so when did you start talking about your early childhood? When did that come into your story? When did you start making that public? Because that does sort of change the way that maybe people perceive you.

Well ninety three when the Simeuse Dream album came out, because people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then there was this kind of rise of Latzki kids who suddenly were interested in what I was saying. And part of that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney, because Courtney chided me for my Hippie LSD inspired lyrics on our first album, and she said something and I'm paraphrasing, which went like, why can't the person I talked to on the phone write the lyrics for the next record or something? So I was like, Okay, I'll take that on his challenge. But when I opened the door, I found a lot of pain and a lot of denial and a lot of a lot of stuff in there. And the book The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron really helped me to claim this voice in there that was sort of screaming to get out. But I was terrified because I knew I would be attacked and dot dot I was, including people accusing me of making up my childhood. I would routinely be asked in introdews to qualify my abuse, which is insane, like on a scale of one ten, how much were you beaten? And It's like, what is it? Yeah, oh no, I'm not even making I'm not even close to dramatizing them. I was asked at least forty or fifty times in the nineties to qualify my abuse. Wow, And I found a line eventually which kind of worked as which was like, am I in the Abuse Olympics? Like, do I have to like qualify to have agency to talk about being abused? Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I was being poked on by my family for talking about the family secrets. Oh yeah, So I was getting it from both ways. On one hand, I wasn't authentic enough and the other side, the family side, they were mad for me talking about what had happened because you don't talk about that stuff in public.

Well ninety three when the Simeuse Dream album came out, because people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then there was this kind of rise of Latzki kids who suddenly were interested in what I was saying. And part of that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney, because Courtney chided me for my Hippie LSD inspired lyrics on our first album, and she said something and I'm paraphrasing, which went like, why can't the person I talked to on the phone write the lyrics for the next record or something? So I was like, Okay, I'll take that on his challenge. But when I opened the door, I found a lot of pain and a lot of denial and a lot of a lot of stuff in there. And the book The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron really helped me to claim this voice in there that was sort of screaming to get out. But I was terrified because I knew I would be attacked and dot dot I was, including people accusing me of making up my childhood. I would routinely be asked in introdews to qualify my abuse, which is insane, like on a scale of one ten, how much were you beaten? And It's like, what is it? Yeah, oh no, I'm not even making I'm not even close to dramatizing them. I was asked at least forty or fifty times in the nineties to qualify my abuse. Wow, And I found a line eventually which kind of worked as which was like, am I in the Abuse Olympics? Like, do I have to like qualify to have agency to talk about being abused? Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I was being poked on by my family for talking about the family secrets. Oh yeah, So I was getting it from both ways. On one hand, I wasn't authentic enough and the other side, the family side, they were mad for me talking about what had happened because you don't talk about that stuff in public.

Yeah, we'll be back with more from Billy Corgan after the break.

Yeah, we'll be back with more from Billy Corgan after the break.

From an artist's perspective, the way that you started writing lyrics where I imagine when you start out it's common to take on a character and then you hear someone like Courtney say, look like I want you to write from your heart. I want you to write from you. That seems like a really really big jump. How long did that actually take? And like, how long was that process? How many albums did that last?

From an artist's perspective, the way that you started writing lyrics where I imagine when you start out it's common to take on a character and then you hear someone like Courtney say, look like I want you to write from your heart. I want you to write from you. That seems like a really really big jump. How long did that actually take? And like, how long was that process? How many albums did that last?

Well, it's strangely coincided with the need for us to make a successful record. I'm the type of person where I couldn't stand being successful if I wasn't authentic, which sounds strange because we're talking about avatars, But most fans of my work know that the voice in the music is very authentic. All the character stuff all around it is a bunch of smoke, but the voice singing is pretty on point. So yeah, it was like, Okay, you've got to make a really successful record. You've got to live up to the success of these new grunge bands which have sort of exploded on the world scene. It's your major label debut. Oh, by the way, you have to write pop songs which go on the radio. Somehow put all those pieces together and get back to me later. The only thing I found that resonated deeply with me, that I was willing to kind of die for was to speak with an authentic voice. And it went on for about eight months where I just, you know, would you I am painting an analogy, but you know, you put pen to paper and you're just too afraid to write what you want to say. That went on for eight months, almost killed myself repeatedly, ended up living in a parking garage. I mean, it was a very haunting time. It sounds kind of strangely dramatic, in hindsight at the time, it was like it was very peramine and I was sober most of it too. I was not, I mean I was. I was dealing with it full, full frontal, yeah. And I reached the point where I made up my mind that I couldn't deal with the pressure anymore. I was going to kill myself. So I started giving everything away. I started doing all the things you're not supposed to do. I started planning my own suicide. I started envisioning what people would look like standing around my casket. I went through the whole mental ideation, and I got to the point where I made up my mind, Okay, I'm gonna kill myself on Friday, and I set the date and I counted the days down four three, two one, and I got up. I got up the day where I was going to kill myself, and I was like, I really don't want to kill myself, but I kind of made up my mind to do this, and something broke in me, and I'm not making this part up. I literally was like, well, if you're not gonna kill yourself, then you need to be honest. And within the next twenty four to forty eight hours, I wrote two of the most famous songs that we ever had, which was today in Disarm and out came tumbling this this unafraid voice. It was pretty shocking and I still can't even explain it to this day. It was like the door finally broke and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna be me.

Well, it's strangely coincided with the need for us to make a successful record. I'm the type of person where I couldn't stand being successful if I wasn't authentic, which sounds strange because we're talking about avatars, But most fans of my work know that the voice in the music is very authentic. All the character stuff all around it is a bunch of smoke, but the voice singing is pretty on point. So yeah, it was like, Okay, you've got to make a really successful record. You've got to live up to the success of these new grunge bands which have sort of exploded on the world scene. It's your major label debut. Oh, by the way, you have to write pop songs which go on the radio. Somehow put all those pieces together and get back to me later. The only thing I found that resonated deeply with me, that I was willing to kind of die for was to speak with an authentic voice. And it went on for about eight months where I just, you know, would you I am painting an analogy, but you know, you put pen to paper and you're just too afraid to write what you want to say. That went on for eight months, almost killed myself repeatedly, ended up living in a parking garage. I mean, it was a very haunting time. It sounds kind of strangely dramatic, in hindsight at the time, it was like it was very peramine and I was sober most of it too. I was not, I mean I was. I was dealing with it full, full frontal, yeah. And I reached the point where I made up my mind that I couldn't deal with the pressure anymore. I was going to kill myself. So I started giving everything away. I started doing all the things you're not supposed to do. I started planning my own suicide. I started envisioning what people would look like standing around my casket. I went through the whole mental ideation, and I got to the point where I made up my mind, Okay, I'm gonna kill myself on Friday, and I set the date and I counted the days down four three, two one, and I got up. I got up the day where I was going to kill myself, and I was like, I really don't want to kill myself, but I kind of made up my mind to do this, and something broke in me, and I'm not making this part up. I literally was like, well, if you're not gonna kill yourself, then you need to be honest. And within the next twenty four to forty eight hours, I wrote two of the most famous songs that we ever had, which was today in Disarm and out came tumbling this this unafraid voice. It was pretty shocking and I still can't even explain it to this day. It was like the door finally broke and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna be me.

What do you attribute that to?

What do you attribute that to?

I think it's like, if you face your greatest fear, you become kind of unafraid. Yeah, I don't. That's I'm not being artful in how I'm explaining it, but it's like you've kind of faced it down. Yeah, you face the final boss at the level or something, you know. And what I would say, and I'm not a person asked for public empathy, but I will say, for the point of illustration, if anybody knows anything about me, that has been a calamitous decision. Being myself in public has not been a joy ride. Yeah, it's been a very complicated, oftentimes confusing to me way to go through business. But as an artist, I'm fine to stand by it because the work is there. What it's done in my life, what it's done to my personal relationships, what it's done to the band, that's all for books and a wonderful podcast like yours. But I stand by the artistic version of it because I don't know any other way. That's all I know, and that's without training. Again, not asking for anything, just illustrate the point. I didn't go to college. I had no artistic training, I had no mentor, I hadn't nobody to sit me down and say this is how you write a song, this is how you play guitar. I had none of that. Everything is completely self taught. And if I'm a suicidal personality in terms of how I attacked the public sphere, well I think you can understand where the root of that comes from because that's the way I did it, and that's the way I broke through. So why wouldn't I keep doing it? Because I don't know any other way. Yeah.

I think it's like, if you face your greatest fear, you become kind of unafraid. Yeah, I don't. That's I'm not being artful in how I'm explaining it, but it's like you've kind of faced it down. Yeah, you face the final boss at the level or something, you know. And what I would say, and I'm not a person asked for public empathy, but I will say, for the point of illustration, if anybody knows anything about me, that has been a calamitous decision. Being myself in public has not been a joy ride. Yeah, it's been a very complicated, oftentimes confusing to me way to go through business. But as an artist, I'm fine to stand by it because the work is there. What it's done in my life, what it's done to my personal relationships, what it's done to the band, that's all for books and a wonderful podcast like yours. But I stand by the artistic version of it because I don't know any other way. That's all I know, and that's without training. Again, not asking for anything, just illustrate the point. I didn't go to college. I had no artistic training, I had no mentor, I hadn't nobody to sit me down and say this is how you write a song, this is how you play guitar. I had none of that. Everything is completely self taught. And if I'm a suicidal personality in terms of how I attacked the public sphere, well I think you can understand where the root of that comes from because that's the way I did it, and that's the way I broke through. So why wouldn't I keep doing it? Because I don't know any other way. Yeah.

Have you had any other moments in your life that were that rock bottom?

Have you had any other moments in your life that were that rock bottom?

Oh? Yeah? Yeah, early two thousands, there were some periods that were really, really rough.

Oh? Yeah? Yeah, early two thousands, there were some periods that were really, really rough.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean that's why I'd be willing to talk publicly about I guess you would call it suicide prevention. Yeah, many private conversations with people who are going through it, because I understand that once you're in it. It's like a yeah, it's like one of those Star Trek things where they lock on the ship and the ship gets pulled in and there's nothing you can do.

Yeah. I mean that's why I'd be willing to talk publicly about I guess you would call it suicide prevention. Yeah, many private conversations with people who are going through it, because I understand that once you're in it. It's like a yeah, it's like one of those Star Trek things where they lock on the ship and the ship gets pulled in and there's nothing you can do.

You know.

You know.

That's how it felt me, like I just couldn't escape the gravity. But I did, and I did multiple times, and I don't wear it like a badger pride. I'm almost kind of ashamed that I had to get to that point, but I can also talk proudly that I was able to do something with it alchemically, like lead into gold stuff.

That's how it felt me, like I just couldn't escape the gravity. But I did, and I did multiple times, and I don't wear it like a badger pride. I'm almost kind of ashamed that I had to get to that point, but I can also talk proudly that I was able to do something with it alchemically, like lead into gold stuff.

So around the year two thousand, that would be the Machina album, which just turned twenty five in February, so about a month ago. So is that is that a period? I know that was a really hard period for the band. How do you think about that that period now that you have some distance.

So around the year two thousand, that would be the Machina album, which just turned twenty five in February, so about a month ago. So is that is that a period? I know that was a really hard period for the band. How do you think about that that period now that you have some distance.

Well, you know, when when Jimmy chamber Lit left the Pumpkins in ninety six and my mother died, I made the decision to record the Ador album, which was basically career suicide. And I was told at the time it grew suicide, and I persisted, and it basically was career suicide. Now it's considered a really, really a warmly thought of record. Machina was the response to the negativity around the door. It was like, we have one more record on our album contract. We signed it together, let's reform is for and let's just kind of do a record, give our best college effort, like the Beatles did, make one more record and go out on a fiery ball of glory. And it didn't work out that way. We didn't make it through the entire period without our basis Darcy leaving. And then you know, there were a multitude of problems in making the record and also promoting the record, including the record company completely abandoning us. But the funny part was towards the end of it, I announced that the band was going to break up, which was always part of the plan. We threw on the internet. In a moment of I guess I was just kind of pissed off at the record company. I threw out another record, which is commonly known as Machina two for Friends and Enemies of Modern music, and the fans love that record. I went back to the record company and I said, you know, I know this sounds crazy, and I know we're leaving, but fans really like this record. Why don't we put the two records together it's an intact unit and put it back on the market, and I think you'll get your money back and we'll be in a good place. And they told me to fuck off. But they asked for CD copies that they could hand out, so they still help market Machina two behind the scenes, but they wanted nothing to do with it publicly or commercially. So when I made the reissue deal with what was then EMI Records. Now our catalog is absorbed into Universal, but at the time I made a deal, I said, because they wanted all the albums reissued with box sets. I said, I only make this deal if I'm allowed to put Machina one and Machina two together into an intact unit. So we're prepping that now. Oh nice, And so Machina one in Machina two will be reunited as they were written into one. Crazy. Uh, It's it's somewhere in the neighborhood of fifty songs. Wow, Like it's like a Wagner It's no, it's it's like it's like a Wagner song cycle or something. It's like the Ringe cycle. It goes on forever. But it really is the story of a band disintegrating and by extension, my personality disintegrating into some sort of spiritual uh being who trundles on post two thousand. So it's hard to talk about that period, but contextually, I think to your question, I look back on it more fondly now than I did at the time.

Well, you know, when when Jimmy chamber Lit left the Pumpkins in ninety six and my mother died, I made the decision to record the Ador album, which was basically career suicide. And I was told at the time it grew suicide, and I persisted, and it basically was career suicide. Now it's considered a really, really a warmly thought of record. Machina was the response to the negativity around the door. It was like, we have one more record on our album contract. We signed it together, let's reform is for and let's just kind of do a record, give our best college effort, like the Beatles did, make one more record and go out on a fiery ball of glory. And it didn't work out that way. We didn't make it through the entire period without our basis Darcy leaving. And then you know, there were a multitude of problems in making the record and also promoting the record, including the record company completely abandoning us. But the funny part was towards the end of it, I announced that the band was going to break up, which was always part of the plan. We threw on the internet. In a moment of I guess I was just kind of pissed off at the record company. I threw out another record, which is commonly known as Machina two for Friends and Enemies of Modern music, and the fans love that record. I went back to the record company and I said, you know, I know this sounds crazy, and I know we're leaving, but fans really like this record. Why don't we put the two records together it's an intact unit and put it back on the market, and I think you'll get your money back and we'll be in a good place. And they told me to fuck off. But they asked for CD copies that they could hand out, so they still help market Machina two behind the scenes, but they wanted nothing to do with it publicly or commercially. So when I made the reissue deal with what was then EMI Records. Now our catalog is absorbed into Universal, but at the time I made a deal, I said, because they wanted all the albums reissued with box sets. I said, I only make this deal if I'm allowed to put Machina one and Machina two together into an intact unit. So we're prepping that now. Oh nice, And so Machina one in Machina two will be reunited as they were written into one. Crazy. Uh, It's it's somewhere in the neighborhood of fifty songs. Wow, Like it's like a Wagner It's no, it's it's like it's like a Wagner song cycle or something. It's like the Ringe cycle. It goes on forever. But it really is the story of a band disintegrating and by extension, my personality disintegrating into some sort of spiritual uh being who trundles on post two thousand. So it's hard to talk about that period, but contextually, I think to your question, I look back on it more fondly now than I did at the time.

Have you thought about selling the catalog?

Have you thought about selling the catalog?

I've been approached many times and I've said no every time.

I've been approached many times and I've said no every time.

Do you think it'll ever come to a point where you will?

Do you think it'll ever come to a point where you will?

I don't know my lawyer, whose name I will leave out of this for his his own his own sense of sanity, but he's one of the top catalog guys in the world. Wow, So I'm lucky in that. My guy, you knows the business. So when we first sat together with the idea that we were going to work together, and he's a huge fan from way back. He talks about buying Siamese Dream the day he came out, So he's a he's a convert. He believes in what I do. So the first time that we really sat down to have a conversation about Okay, we're going to work together, what does this really mean? The first question out of his mouth was do you want to sell your catalog? And he was asking more strategically than to encourage me to do that, and I said no, And he said why and I said, because it's undervalued. That I completely agree. So until the catalog is that it's true value, it's not even worth entertaining. It would be very, very very hard for me to sell my catalog there. Yeah. Yeah, I hear all the arguments, and there's fiscal arguments, and there's hey, there's still your songs, you know, And but for me, this has been my ticket to sanity. So I have an incredibly close emotional attachment.

I don't know my lawyer, whose name I will leave out of this for his his own his own sense of sanity, but he's one of the top catalog guys in the world. Wow, So I'm lucky in that. My guy, you knows the business. So when we first sat together with the idea that we were going to work together, and he's a huge fan from way back. He talks about buying Siamese Dream the day he came out, So he's a he's a convert. He believes in what I do. So the first time that we really sat down to have a conversation about Okay, we're going to work together, what does this really mean? The first question out of his mouth was do you want to sell your catalog? And he was asking more strategically than to encourage me to do that, and I said no, And he said why and I said, because it's undervalued. That I completely agree. So until the catalog is that it's true value, it's not even worth entertaining. It would be very, very very hard for me to sell my catalog there. Yeah. Yeah, I hear all the arguments, and there's fiscal arguments, and there's hey, there's still your songs, you know, And but for me, this has been my ticket to sanity. So I have an incredibly close emotional attachment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And as I like to say, for the thirty that people like to listen to, and I'm blessed to even have that many, there's still another three hundred and seventy sitting there that don't really get listened too much. So I'm more on the Irving Berlin Diane Warren tip, which is you're gonna hear all my songs eventually, and I'm going to do what I gotta do to So handing them over to somebody and figuring that they're going to take care of my other children in this euphemistic case, is hard for me. To believe.

And as I like to say, for the thirty that people like to listen to, and I'm blessed to even have that many, there's still another three hundred and seventy sitting there that don't really get listened too much. So I'm more on the Irving Berlin Diane Warren tip, which is you're gonna hear all my songs eventually, and I'm going to do what I gotta do to So handing them over to somebody and figuring that they're going to take care of my other children in this euphemistic case, is hard for me. To believe.

Yeah, it's interesting. How now it's totally acceptable. People don't bat an eye when they hear you know, so and so institutional artists sold their catalog. It's just sort of you know, okay.

Yeah, it's interesting. How now it's totally acceptable. People don't bat an eye when they hear you know, so and so institutional artists sold their catalog. It's just sort of you know, okay.

Yeah. I don't describe any anything to those things, because everybody should make decisions based on what's best for them and their family. But it's sometimes when you see people you truly respect and that have always been held up as paragons of virtue or independence. Yes, kind of quote unquote sell out to the man. And there may come a day where I too will sell out to the man. But let me add one other thing. And I have thrown this out there and people always look at me with this really puzzled, puzzled look, and then they realize that I'm serious. Both my children have some musical ability, but I would never push them into into music if they didn't want it. There's no there's no uh, this isn't the Brady Bunch or something, right. But but I do not rule out that that the brand of the Smashing Pumpkins will continue, not just past me, but it will it would continue because it's set up as an artistic institution. I see it as being completely possible that my children would take over the Smashing Pumpkins at one point but play their own songs and not even necessarily play mine. It's like it's like being in the Flying will lend As or something. Yeah, it's not a Hank Williams junior situation where he had to play his father's songs. I could see a scenario and my children would take over the brand but not even feel the need to play my music.

Yeah. I don't describe any anything to those things, because everybody should make decisions based on what's best for them and their family. But it's sometimes when you see people you truly respect and that have always been held up as paragons of virtue or independence. Yes, kind of quote unquote sell out to the man. And there may come a day where I too will sell out to the man. But let me add one other thing. And I have thrown this out there and people always look at me with this really puzzled, puzzled look, and then they realize that I'm serious. Both my children have some musical ability, but I would never push them into into music if they didn't want it. There's no there's no uh, this isn't the Brady Bunch or something, right. But but I do not rule out that that the brand of the Smashing Pumpkins will continue, not just past me, but it will it would continue because it's set up as an artistic institution. I see it as being completely possible that my children would take over the Smashing Pumpkins at one point but play their own songs and not even necessarily play mine. It's like it's like being in the Flying will lend As or something. Yeah, it's not a Hank Williams junior situation where he had to play his father's songs. I could see a scenario and my children would take over the brand but not even feel the need to play my music.

Are you careful that you're not putting pressure on them? Oh?

Are you careful that you're not putting pressure on them? Oh?

Yeah, very much so. Yeah. My son on his kolee on his own, has asked for a guitar, ukulele and a bass and he plays the ukulele pretty well for a kid who doesn't practice much. So. And my daughter has found some program where you sing along with songs and analyzes your pitch. Oh wow, she's only six years old. So the other day my wife sent me a clip of my daughter in bed singing Sweet Dreams by the Arrhythmics.

Yeah, very much so. Yeah. My son on his kolee on his own, has asked for a guitar, ukulele and a bass and he plays the ukulele pretty well for a kid who doesn't practice much. So. And my daughter has found some program where you sing along with songs and analyzes your pitch. Oh wow, she's only six years old. So the other day my wife sent me a clip of my daughter in bed singing Sweet Dreams by the Arrhythmics.

Oh so, both of them showing Jenny Lennox.

Oh so, both of them showing Jenny Lennox.

Sure, but I would never push them into it because the one thing my father said that did resonate over time was he didn't want me to go to the music business because in his estimation and it was a shit business. So I understand what he means. Wrong, No, it's a shit business. Yeah No, but I've said publicly and I'll say it to you. It's a rapacious business. It still is anti artists, which is sure believable after one hundred years of business. It's still holy anti artists, which which is why you still see those contentious types of relationships between artists and labels or artists in their handlers. Yeah, if you really get behind the scenes and you talk to people who truly run the music business, they'll tell you that they're and I think it's a bit of a rationalization, but they'll tell you that part of their logic is artists don't last. Most are lucky to have three or four years. So they're oriented around the concept, which is, I don't really have to worry about your future because it's not my future.

Sure, but I would never push them into it because the one thing my father said that did resonate over time was he didn't want me to go to the music business because in his estimation and it was a shit business. So I understand what he means. Wrong, No, it's a shit business. Yeah No, but I've said publicly and I'll say it to you. It's a rapacious business. It still is anti artists, which is sure believable after one hundred years of business. It's still holy anti artists, which which is why you still see those contentious types of relationships between artists and labels or artists in their handlers. Yeah, if you really get behind the scenes and you talk to people who truly run the music business, they'll tell you that they're and I think it's a bit of a rationalization, but they'll tell you that part of their logic is artists don't last. Most are lucky to have three or four years. So they're oriented around the concept, which is, I don't really have to worry about your future because it's not my future.

Right.

Right.

I find that completely shocking, because if you have a Billie Eilish or you know, Bob Marley, I don't know how you don't go, My goodness, this is such a rare flower. Yeah, we really got to do everything in our power to nurture and let this artist fly with the biggest wings possible because by the way we make more money, they go into this other mode, which is like, uh, we better be careful, We're going to lose control. Yeah.

I find that completely shocking, because if you have a Billie Eilish or you know, Bob Marley, I don't know how you don't go, My goodness, this is such a rare flower. Yeah, we really got to do everything in our power to nurture and let this artist fly with the biggest wings possible because by the way we make more money, they go into this other mode, which is like, uh, we better be careful, We're going to lose control. Yeah.

I thought it was really interesting your conversation with Sharon Osborne on your podcast, because she has been in the music industry since she as she started working with her dad when officially working with her dad when she was fifteen, and back then the music industry was so much more upfront about just being ruthless. There were no protections in place for our So that was just interesting to hear that whole lineage. And I was curious in your interview with Sharon, you seemed like you were giving her a lot more room to talk, whereas the Tom Morello you were so excited. You were like, you know, jumping in and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you had you were like, so, you know, like excited about it because there's just a lot of commonality, I think. But with the interview with Sharon, is there a reason you had a different approach? Did it have anything to do with your past with Sharon?

I thought it was really interesting your conversation with Sharon Osborne on your podcast, because she has been in the music industry since she as she started working with her dad when officially working with her dad when she was fifteen, and back then the music industry was so much more upfront about just being ruthless. There were no protections in place for our So that was just interesting to hear that whole lineage. And I was curious in your interview with Sharon, you seemed like you were giving her a lot more room to talk, whereas the Tom Morello you were so excited. You were like, you know, jumping in and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you had you were like, so, you know, like excited about it because there's just a lot of commonality, I think. But with the interview with Sharon, is there a reason you had a different approach? Did it have anything to do with your past with Sharon?

A little bit? A little bit Sharon and I made up behind the scenes, I mean easily over fifteen years ago. Yeah, but I think there's a sweetness and an affection there that we have naturally, and I wanted to be careful in getting her to talk about stuff that maybe she would normally talk about in a way that would make her feel safe. And I think that was also an understanding that if I wasn't careful, it might come off that I still had a bone to pick, given you know, our our very public falling out circa around machine. Actually. Yeah, So I mean I know that I know that Sharon and I are cool, and she knows that I'm cool with her. But at the same time, I could see where maybe people would be misinterpreting my approach. So if you see any nervousness there, it's not between Sharon and I. It's it's because I want to make sure that nobody misreads what's going on, because, like I said, this is this is a long ago healed thing between us.

A little bit? A little bit Sharon and I made up behind the scenes, I mean easily over fifteen years ago. Yeah, but I think there's a sweetness and an affection there that we have naturally, and I wanted to be careful in getting her to talk about stuff that maybe she would normally talk about in a way that would make her feel safe. And I think that was also an understanding that if I wasn't careful, it might come off that I still had a bone to pick, given you know, our our very public falling out circa around machine. Actually. Yeah, So I mean I know that I know that Sharon and I are cool, and she knows that I'm cool with her. But at the same time, I could see where maybe people would be misinterpreting my approach. So if you see any nervousness there, it's not between Sharon and I. It's it's because I want to make sure that nobody misreads what's going on, because, like I said, this is this is a long ago healed thing between us.

Yeah, how did you end up? Well, how did the avatar eventually break down? And was that in the Machina era?

Yeah, how did you end up? Well, how did the avatar eventually break down? And was that in the Machina era?

Uh? I think I rationalized that once I was out of it with the Pumpkins, it was like, Okay, that was a contrivance of that. I'm thirty three years old, I'm going to be on my own now, and I'm to get a new record deal. I'm going a soldier on as quote unquote Billy Corgan, whoever that is. And I genuinely tried in the band that followed The Pumpkins, which was uan to just be a member of the band. Yeah, and I'll tell you a funny thing that happened. Zwan was very much put together as a kind of an equal ensemble. All front members of the band could sing, and two of the male members had sung for their own bands or in their own situations, and pause the bass player could sing well too, So I was trying to find something that had a little bit more balanced to it than say, The Pumpkins, at least on paper. And I kind of got comfortable with not being the front guy, even though I was the front guy. Yeah, and I read a review of us back when I read reviews that chastised the show as being boring and chastise me for sort of laying back or something. So in a moment of peak, I, uh, if that's the way you pronounced that word, I decided the next night that I was going to go out there and put on an old fashioned show in the way that I knew how to do in the pumpkins, and so I was jumping all over and I had a great time, and the show was great, and it was really well received. I had no idea none that that night there was a there was a critic for Rolling Stone in the audience, as only they would have it. I had no idea there was a reviewer there, because you wait, somebody will come back and tell you so and so is in the house or something. You're on the guest. So imagine that I've done this whole tour where I really kind of laid back, and then then this one night I decided to be my machine, a self or something. And then this review comes out and the reviewer chastises me for making the show about me. I thought, well, you know, damned if you do, damned if you don't. So in my in my brain that that equals, well, if I'm damned, if I'm if I do, I'm going to do it, I'm gonna make it worse. So that's set into emotion a whole nother round of various versions of whatever this is, and it gets it gets a awfully disassociative at times. Yeah, but I'm interested, I guess, so that's my excuse. Yeah, it's not healthy.