Check it down, man, now down Now. It's the Beating the Book Podcast. Still alisand I hope you're doing well during these strange times. It's time for another installment of our betting profile series during this global pandemic. I hope you've been enjoying them. Lots of folks, lots of interesting folks throughout the sports betting industry kind enough to spend time with us to lend their insights. Today there's a couple of guys, Ed Miller and Matthew David Dow. They started out as poker players, not originally in their lives, but that's how they first met each other, then later reconnected playing DFS baseball, wrote a book together. We'll talk about that, the logic of sports betting, and now we're doing big things with their company, deck Prism Sports. Ed Miller, Matthew David Dow. It's the Beating the Book Podcast. Enjoy It's a numbers game with your host kil Alexander. Believe it is a numbers game right here at VISA, the Vegas Stats and Information Network, these sports betting Network. Gil Alexander, thanks for joining us this morning. Um on the shows. How we always start this a continuation of what has been a series during this pandemic of profiles of folks in the betting industry, not just professional betters, but those who have all kinds of different angles in the sports betting industry. And we've been blessed here to have so many uh spend their time with us during these last three or four months. Alan Boston, Rufus Peabody, Uh, Spanky Ray Marino from bookmaker Dr Bob, Alan Dankinson, on and on, Joe Peter. I'm leaving some folks out, so I don't mean to uh to upset whoever I forgot, but it's been it's been a bunch. And when I came back here from vacation, I thought to myself, I gotta get these two gentlemen back on the show because they are doing so many different things that it would I'd be remissed and not including in this series. They're kind enough to join me in studio again. They're the authors of the logic of sports betting, but long time affiliation with all things betty betting. Rather, it's Ed Miller and Matthew David Dow once again or David Ow, excuse me, back on the show. How you guys doing, man, I appreciate you spend the time. Yeah, thank you for having us back. Um, Let's I listened back. I was telling you all fair. I listened back to our time together about a year ago when the book first came out. So I want to try to as as much as possible not repeat what we talked about then, but with everybody during this series that I've done, I always want to start at the beginning and that sort of James Lipton inside the actor's studio kind of way. We didn't talk about this last time. How did you both grow up? Let's start with you, Ed. Where did you grow up? What was your first experience with anything betting where it's sort of little bulb for you. So I'm on for New Orleans. I grew up in New Orleans. I went to high school there and then um went off for college. And my first interest in gambling was in black jack. They you know, I read one of those early books about the you know, card counting in black jack, and I don't know, in the nineties and uh and in college kind of it it always you know, I don't know, it's something about it stuck with me, and I like had this idea that I was going to move to Vegas be a black jack player, and that didn't happen. I went to Microsoft and was a software edineer. But that's that's when I started gambling. Was um, that was when online poker was really getting going. So online poker was my first real time gambling, you know, pre bringing it down the house a different black jack book we're talking about. It was Yeah, it was before it was you know, like yeah, before that book had been written. It was you know, like like the nerdy ones where they you know, teach it the system and how to do this, and you know that I read a couple of those and you know, we're your Did your parents have any any none basis? So no, they were horrified by the whole they were well my mom, yeah she was not. She still horrified. Well she she she so she's an English professor and she, um was horrified until I wrote my first book and then she was okay with it. You said, I listened back to our first You wrote nine books on poker. Yeah, not nine, this tremendous output. So okay, but did you know so when you read that book, did it hit you in a way that nothing else had, Like, did you know at that moment, even if you did go to Microsoft first, like somehow I'm going to end up doing something related to that. I didn't know professionally, like at all. I I definitely didn't have any I didn't have any concept that this was going to be my career until like I was several years into it, really like this will stick. Yeah, it's it's um Yeah, I mean I was you know, I always like playing games. I like playing games from when I was you know, a little kid, just consistent interest. And to me it was like, how you know this is a way you can make money playing games. That's cool, Matthew. How about she? Where'd you girl? So? I grew up in suburban Pittsburgh and uh, we don't hear that in this business at all. No, no, never, I haven't anyone from Pittsburgh so far. Uh. But yeah, my experience growing up was definitely different. And yeah, I I always wanted to gamble. I grew up. I remember sitting in like math class or something junior high and I figured out that if I could just win two out of every three of my sports picks, why I would have quite a bit of money in no time. Yeah, and I was the kid in high school that you know. We played poker with our friends. I hang out some of the pool hall play some We used to play a game called guts two cards, Guts, everyone gets two cards. Just sit around like the the like the table at the pool hall. One by one you say guts or no guts, and it's just the best two car poker hand. But then if nobody says gus, he gets to the last player. If everyone folds, and the last player takes the pot. So it's just a complete bluffing game, you know, figuring out the correct you know, from a game theory standpoint of how much the bluff it was. You know, it was worth a lot in that game. Ed Miller, Matthew David Dale, authors of the Logic of Sports Betting, and the co founders of of a business that we'll get to here during the hour that really takes up all their time these days. Um, so you came to Vegas as well? You were both in Vegas. You knew each other from playing poker? Correct? Yeah? We I think we met in the blast game a long time ago. Do you remember if you liked each other? Do you remember if you were like, oh, that guy kind of thing. Well Ed was already very famous on two plus two and stuff at that time, so you know he was, you know, me as what, twenty four years old, and just moved the base, you know, go the blage you every day to play poker, you know, which was a big step up from the games I had played, and you know, other casinos elsewhere, you know, to meet somebody like Ed, who, like I said, already at the time, was you know, pre eminent poker authority, Ed Miller was. What it was was something so you drift or you do your own thing for a few years, three or four years, the both of you, and then unbeknowns to the both of you, you both sort of gravitate towards daily fantasy. Wasn't Yeah, that's yeah, that was what it was, and you and and it was baseball specifically, wasn't. I mean yeah, I think so yeah. And how did that? So how did that connection where you're like, oh, you do this, you know, and when did you? I guess, well, take it from your perspective, and when did you think to yourself, Oh, um, good dude, how funny it is that we ended up doing this at the same time. We both obviously have some sort of advantage play blood in US two, I could work with this guy. I mean, it was pretty fast. We we got connected on a we we both got independently consulted on a fantasy sports company. Um, that was kind of how we got connected. And I kind of showed him I'd build a whole little system to builde my lineups for me and everything. And so I showed him that and one of those, right, one of those, and uh, you know, and and basically we figured out that we were really had independently come to a very similar approach on how to win at the game. And I don't know, I think that was it was pretty fast in those in those days. I mean, you guys sound like you know, we have Richard Munchkin Allot on the on the network. He's the ultimate sort of advantage player. If there's an advantage to be had, he gravitates towards it. There's so many of you know, great absolutely great guy, and there's so many people who not so many, but there's a there's a group of folks that we all are aware of that that's how they conduct their lives. Would you have considered either of you that type of person was that in your DNA, Like, if there was advantage play checkers across the room, would you have found that game and tried to exploit that for however long you could. I mean me more so than ed. But at the same time, I, you know, I I I do not have a actual background advantage play. While I know in respect, hugely respect a lot of the people in that in in that field, there's just some of the sharpest minds. I was always aiming on a larger scale for you know, lack of a better term, you know, trying to trying to do you know, particularly sports, you know, working on our models are our pre game and then we started working in game models about what it's almost been seven years now, it's been and I've always been much more focused on more of the larger picture gambling than Okay, how do I show up with this casinon't beat this blackjack game? Okay, So the logic of sports betting is why we had you on the first time. We could have had you on for any number of reasons. I had followed in for for for years, perhaps unbeknownst him, but the logic of sports betting, which we're looking here at Visa dot Com, the Visa app, food post ling game plus uh this was and again, I you know, in preparation for this today, I listened back to the thirty or forty minutes we talked last time, and I was thinking to myself. I was like, I didn't do it justice because I kept harping on, you know, this is and I still believe this. To me, this is the best sports betting book I've ever read, and that remains. But the way I couched it last time was everybody who's starting out in sports betting should absolutely start by reading this book, do it the right way. That remains. But what I didn't say is that this is also a book not just for beginners, for people who have bet sports for five years, for ten years, for twenty years, it's just as valuable. I mean, maybe if you're starting it's it's the most valuable, for sure. But I think there were things that and we were talking about this before the show, there were things that I read in there. And I'm by no means and you know, the guy who's been at this for thirty forty years, but there were certainly things in there that I read where I'm like, you know, maybe I knew this in my head intuitively, but I didn't really think of it this way kind of thing. And there were things that you're just reminded of. I just the brilliance of the book to me is when I was being reared on sports betting, there were lots of books out there, and they would have their moments that would hit me. Um, but most of it was too wonky for my younger brain to really latch onto and to really be excited about. This is a book that anybody. I could send this to my mother, bother you bring up your mother, my mother who says one of my sons is a doctor or the other. I'm not really sure, right, So I think give this to her, and I promise you she would give it a go and she would get something out of this. That's how well written this was, in my opinion, and I'm sure this was part of your whole thinking of we gotta make this relatable and to that extent you were just brilliant and how you guys did it well. Thank you appreciate that, Yeah, I I think you know. UM, I mean, just thank you for all the nice things you said about the book. Obviously, UM. The thing that I would say. I mean, there's I think in play betting is new for everybody, you know, and and some people I've I've you know, I've some people have said to me, well, that was a great book. It's a good beginner book. And I was like, you know, you didn't know the stuff about the InPlay betting, like you know, I think that you know, And so somebody who claims that they knew everything probably not being right. Yeah, exactly, That's that's kind of how I feel. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to have interrupt. I mean, that's I mean, just just a sort of by the way, I have two copies here of Logic Sports Betting, signed by the authors Nick. How do we give this away? Do we take caller one or six? At one of six? Came l Jams, like, how do we do this? We can we figure out a way to do it on Twitter or something? What's that Twitter contest? Maybe yeah, let's do with Twitter. We'll think about it on the break. We'll give away to two copies of this. But there was I'm thinking a year after I read it, I'm thinking, what do I like? What's the headline of what I remember? And I keep coming back to there's I remember price Discovery. We took price Discovery. We talked about that a lot. But and then there was angles versus trends I remember being a sort of interesting thing. But the thing I talked about with you last time, which which more than anything, sticks in my in my brain, uh, the approach of using multiple outs to get a zero synthetic hold. I talk about on this show. All the time people who talk about sports betting talk about all the time, the best time, all the all the time, about shopping for the best prices. Right, but you guys couched it in this other way where I'm like, why hasn't anybody else done? Could you explain what I what I meant by that sentence right there about zero synthetic holdre so um so. So in general, you know, people obviously talk about shopping for the best price all the time, and I think a lot of the time they come at it with, well, I have a bet I want to make. I want to bet on the Packers, And so now my job is to like look at the odds site, the comparative site, or you know, just check a bunch of sports books and see who has the best price on the Packers. Right. And and in the book we kind of you know, we say, well look at odds, shop in a different way. Right, instead of having in your mind this is the bet I want to make. Let's find the best price. Look for the markets where there are opportunities. Right, So instead of having in preconceived oh, I want to make this better that bet, say what markets are out there where there's an opportunity for me? And what's an opportunity it's when there's no viig in the market. So a sports book, you know, they charge minus one town on either side, or maybe it's baseball and it's you know, minus one forty plus one twenty. You know, that's the big. That's why you know you lose if you flip a coin, because you know you're gonna win. You're gonna you know, lose more than you win on average. Right. But if you could get that big down to zero, then you don't lose anymore. You can flip coins all day long, you're not gonna lose. So while anyone sports book is never gonna show you minus one plus one forty, you can find that between two different sports books. Potentially, like on a baseball game, you could find one minus one forty year and then plus and forty there, and now all of a sudden there's no vig And you do that, you could pick whichever team you want, you know, and you're you have a lot better shot at at winning. And this is why I like with states serving up and I mean some of the states with better regulations now as well, you know, Colorado being one of them. Uh. How you can actually take this and apply it is sign up at the sports books, take advantage of the bonus offers. You know, look for an odd screen that displays the the odds and in real time amongst the different accounts that you have. Look for markets. I mean, if you want to bet sports and never lose, A simple way to do that is the only bet markets where you can look across the screen of your actual outs and in as an example, you know, get minus one forty on side A plus one forty on side B. If every single sports book that you have has minus one forty plus one twenty one, probably gonna lose about that three point seven percent. If, on the other hand, you've got what is their seventeen sports books in Colorado, I think that there's a lot open one and there's said, I mean, that's crazy, and a lot of these places are going to be trying to take bet. They're gonna be trying to compete on price, you know. I I think there's a few places in Colorado there aimy to completely compete on price. And you pute a few of them on a screen or you know, on your apps, and find the market where you can get the same price. Basically on either side. You can bet forever without losing a dollar. You don't have to know anything that that nugget alone, Just that point about about synthetic zero hold is is just I think it's not gonna make you the greatest sports better in the world overnight, but it's certainly gonna make you an exponentially better sports better. It's going to just improve from the if you're first starting out reading the book, it's just gonna start you at a at a higher level than you would have otherwise. And if you're a current better like this is this is, you know, just such a key point. It's in the weeds for for some I hope people grab that. We'll talk about what they're doing now. Deck Prison Sports coming up, Ed Miller, Matthew David down right here, on a numbers game and Visa these Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander. It is a numbers game right here at Visa the Sports Betting Network. The Logic of Sports Betting is the book written by my guest today, Ed Miller, Matthew David Dow kind enough to join me once again. Um, before we get to what you are doing today, there is something else, by the way, and by the way, Nick Kenyon. Right now Producers is coming up with a Twitter contest to who can win these two copies of the book, signed copies from Ed and and Matthew. And we were just talking all fair about how I hope that I hope that the folks that there's a large percentage of folks who will just listen to your explanation about what we were just talking about was zero whole percentage synthetic zero hold and and thought to themselves, Oh, I now I get it. I need to sort of read this. Ultimately, we know there's going to be some percentage that will be like, yeah, I just want to I just want Aaron Rodgers to beat the Cowboys. But to the extent we can sort of drive this home that there's so many nuggets in this book that that will just help up you beyond belief in this racket before we get to the endeavor today. And I bring you up from time to time on this show. You're probably unaware of this, but more than a few times when the subject of and i'll give the specific book, it's usually when it comes to William Hill, you and I are sort of aligned on a certain thing here. It's a it's worn as sort of a badge of honor on people's sleeves. If I could just mix metaphors here that when when they get banned from a book like William Hill, and I always have thought to myself, I'm like, that's not what I'm if I live here in Nevada, that's not what I'm striving for. I don't bet there often. I bet they're probably a handful of times a year. But every once in a while things will come up. It just happens to be William Hill that I'm talking about here, because they're specific in this case, But every once in a while there'll be lines there that I want to rush over in bet won't happen every month, won't happen every few months, but sometimes it happens, and I just want to have the ability to have that out. You, I believe, have a very similar viewpoint on that. You're not trying to get banned. You get the business model and therefore behave accordingly. Is that correct? Have I misquoted you over the years? You know? I mean, that's that's that's the right idea. I mean, I you know, I don't not talking about any book in general, but talking more about the like badge of honor idea. I mean, I think there's you know, there's a subset of gamblers that you know, their ego is kind of tied up and you know how smart they are. And the thing about gambling is there's not really like like it's a really solitary thing. Like the people that I know who have won you know, literally seven figures are more. I mean a lot of times they're literally doing it in complete anonymity. They have a small network of people. Sometimes they man on the internet. Sometimes they only know them by handles, you know, sometimes they're halfway across the world, and those are the only people in on the secret that they're these brilliant people that million and that just eats at them that they can't tell people how amazing they are. You know, this is my sort of pet gambler psychology thing. I could talk about that first, and I just see it come out in these ways. I just see it coming. Oh I got banned, but we'll congratulating for you, you know, good for you, you got banned. I mean, you know, that's how I see it. Yeah, I agree, I mean, why would you want to get banned by anyone? I mean that it's it's such a great we we sort of drifted there in something though, but we know certain gambles. We probably know the same ones who have struggled with that, right they there, I know, you know, and you guys do as well. A spectrum of great gamblers. And there are those that who ought to do remain anonymous, that look askance at those whose egos, from their viewpoint, have have made them sort of come out in public to say, hey, look at me, I'm really great at this. And those and and the truly successful betters, as you say, many are in complete anonymity, toil away in a corner of the world. They'll never come on this show, by the way, good friends of mine, right, like, hey, when you come on Finally, no man does nothing for me. The worst are the ones with the big enough he goes to write the books. As far as William Hill like, I think, I think if you're a sports book and you're putting up any proposition, any odds, it's a two way, and you're the sports book is telling the better you can bet either side of this for the post that limited any time you get your bad I think that's like the and hear and deal that the sports book is making with the clients. And I think when books don't do that, that goes against where we want to be as an industry, against where where we want to be as a as a society. Honestly, as far as like embracing sport, embracing odds, predicting this gambling, I think that any time there's and and certainly that's what happens if you're posting propositions with two sides, and if certain players play one of the sides that either it had banned or delayed. So I definitely want to say, I don't think that's a that's not how that's not where I want the industry to go. At the same time, in what is really the point of playing something that you know is gonna get you banned. I mean, and I well, and and to exhibit William and to exhibit you know, to get your banned. Right, that's part of the game. This is obviously the discussion I want to get to. Uh, and we will talk about we have to go to break here again. Deca Prism Sports is the name of the company that these two gentlemen, Ed Miller and Matthew david Ow have co founded. Um wait till you hear what they're doing now. We talked about a little last time, but it is in full effect now, I know, in the state of Colorado and uh, across the pond. We'll get into that and this wider discussion we're just having right here on a numbers game at Visa, the Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander, a numbers game proudly brought you by Big Lots. This program, of course, not only brought you by Big Lots, but if you live big and save lots, all you have to do is go to Big Lots store near you and visit big Lots dot com. Do one or the other Big Lots, Live, Big, Save Lots right here on the Numbers game a Visa. The sports Betting Network is Skill Alexander H. Nick Kenyon producer this week. Um, how are we given away the logic of sports betting? What are we doing? We are gonna do a Twitter contest on the Visa live feed and we will have it retweeted from the Beating the book feed as well. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna put out a tweet about eight am Pacific time. Look for it around then. And we want to hear from you what's the best sports gambling advice you've received since the time you started sports gambling. Our two favorite responses will win signed copies of Matt and Ed's book. We're judge injury on that, none, of course we are. Yeah, all right now people are gonna start doing it now now at eight o'clock. Now that you mentioned it, all right, well we'll do it officially starting eight o'clock. Uh, Ed Miller, Matthew David Out are my guest here again this morning? Yes, the authors of the logical sports betting. But what takes most of your time now, if not all of your time, is deck prism sports. Uh. You explained to me last time. And for those who didn't know, deck prism, uh, the crystal in a in a old timey sail boat adding light to the darkness. What was your express what was your expression? Remember darkness exactly? That makes no sense, no, but did in your explanation before it did it? It was sort of a guiding lights to it. So in before electricity, the tolls of the ships would obviously not have much light in the deck prism is a literally a prism with you know, different angles of glass that would sit in the way between the sun and the hole that would spread more light across the entire entirety of the interior of the ship. And what is it that you guys do? Deck prism in game stuff primarily, but all kinds of betting offerings. Right, So so we're we're, um basically offering what we call managed trading services. That's what the industry calls it. UM. Basically we operate the the line we we basically provide sports book operators with a line set that they can offer to their customers. So, um, you know, in a sports book operator, someone can say, Hey, I want to start a sports book, but you know, I don't know how the heck to make lines on twenty seven different games and props and all this stuff. You know what do I do? And basically they could come to a company like ours and say, hey, can you provide me with you know, up to the second lines that I can offer to my customers and you're up and running. Yeah, we have a complete product all the way from pre match through. But where we really are heads and tales. We think of our competitions the in play. We have an in play product that anybody can use without the delay. Let mean, one thing I I know that we've been talking about recently is how bad delay is in general, especially for in running, and our product is built for a sports book to operate with zero delay. Can we show the David Berman tweet that we put up yesterday, David Barman over from ESPN. This struck me yesterday I put up. I'm like, oh, this is perfect lead up for Ed and Matthew tomorrow. But he experienced what so many of us has have experienced so many times in far away places when we're in game wagering. Um, David Barman, why American needs better technology in the betting world? He Morrikawa. Colin Morrikawa the Charles Schwab live at plus nine thirty after the second whole yet Sunday in the final round. Rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, it's five rejected. By the way, fine give up, and he's just sort of expressing his frustration. This is exactly what you seek to eradicate, right that nutshet with our product, you pressed the botot plus nine thirty get the bet every single time. What so, now, when you were writing Logic of Sports Betting, I understand that this was probably your You've probably thought bigger things beyond that. You you already said seven years ago you started modeling this kind of thing together. Do Let's let me put it this way. Hope we don't take it wrong. Why did you Why were you guys so confident that you were the ones to do this best with the models that we were using, we're already being used in the market. We were we were all we were already you know, selling them the syndicates we are they were tried and true, whereas everybody else is where ten second delays. So you cyndy kids were using your mouth. Are they still up? By the way, it's still available deck prison on online, can can better still access that are no longer there's there's no more odds on the website. For many many reasons, that was something we wanted to get our name out there. Obviously wanted to you know, show us to create you know, publicity more than anything. Just all of our all of our focus right now as a company is in in our product, which is the one that the sports books are actually using. So if we were using the same you know the same time and effort to put them up on the website for free, that would kind of go against that. How many? How many? That's right? Basically since you're up and running now. Before we were talking prior to your launch, I think in August last year was the launch. You're in Colorado, You're you're in Europe somewhere too, Is that correct? We're not in Europe where we have a deal with a Latin American I expect to be in Europe though during football season, and you know the at least one and hopefully number of places in Colorado and else where in the US. Um Nevada already to entrenched in what they're doing. For you to sort of engage right now, would you say we we would love to get into Nevada. I mean there's some uh special regulatory hurdles that Nevada has the states like Colorado. I don't have Colorado has. I just give a shout out to Colorado. They've been fantastic so far. Their regulatory everything dealing with them has been terrific. It's been intuitive. Yeah, it's been very intuitive. Um. You know, Nevada has got more regulatory hurdles. Um. So that's kind of what immediately stands in the way of us and providing lines to Nevada. But I we would love to and we love I mean obviously we live here. We love it here, we love the books here, we know a lot of the people here, and you know, hopefully we'll figure that out soon. You I don't you know, I don't think you would give away the farm here on this. But is there is there a thirty second pitch that you that you give to sort of convey why what you do might be better than someone else. Let's say there's someone else that is providing these swords of odds to send the kids and elsewhere. Maybe they've they've shown some value. What would you say to people is why we are a cut above without giving away a farm on this. I think that the major thing that separates are coming the way we approach things from the other kind. I'm sure there's plenty of places out there that are really doing good work these days, but we've managed to bring the modeling, the software development, and the trading aspect, you know, all in one, Whereas I think that I think that a lot of operators are looking for more of a plug and play model, hoping one model solves everything. We're able to bring the automation right up to the point where a real expert and can then just can actually add as expertise in real time to the automation and get it to the next level. Okay, turn key in that way if you will. Um okay, And you were talking, and we'll get to this because we had got to take it one more break here. But you saying right before we came on that it's not only the spin that we were just talking about from David Barreman's tweet that you hope to solve what what? In twenty seconds was the other thing that you said that you also are are attempting to solve than I mean, I mean that the main idea to me is that you know in play. Batting is fun when you know that what you're looking at is the bet you're going to get, and that's what we want to offer to our captain. Jack pointed out something with the Oregon Lottery, how someone was trying to get minus one ten or something got minus one fifty. Everybody else was getting dealt minus one ten. Those of us have a bet for a long time, very familiar with that sort of thing. We'll find out more about debt. Prison Ed Miller, Matthew David Dow coming back on a numbers game at Visa and these sports betting up. Welcome back to a numbers game with Gil Alexander. Numbers game also brought you by man Escaped dot Com. Man Escape dot com has the tools for your family jewels. You get off plus free shipping with the code Visa atvan escape dot Com off a man Escaped dot Com with promo code v s I n Skill Alexander ed Miller, Matthew David Ow, authors of The Logic of Sports Betting, available where all books are sold still Amazon. For Amazon, it's pretty much it's getting there. I can't tell you how many Amazon trucks I passed on the way from San Francisco to to Vegas on the drive. What has been the most last thing about the book? What's been the most surprising thing about this book? Have you gotten any feedback anecdotally where you're like, oh, I didn't expect to hear that at all. I Mean, the thing I appreciate the most is how many non gamblers have picked up this book, you know, our industry adjacent and have have been like, Wow, I learned a lot, you know, I mean we were talking off fair a little bit about you know, I've had some state legislators read that reach out to me and say, hey, you know, we're researching this to legalize it in our state. And I read a book and I really learned a lot. And and to me, that's that's the feedback I've I've appreciated. That's awesome. Yeah, casting a wide net with it. By the way, on Visa Live, Nick it's up. People can't People who want to signed copy by both the Ed and Matthew Logical Sports Betting check out at feast and live right now on Twitter and respond there. Okay, so right before the break and I sort of jammed you up against the break, but you wanted to explain the spin in a different way. You had a sort of macro wave. So a lot of people look at the delays and they think, well, if something happens in the game state, you know, that's what the delay is for, you know, me and you know, as a gambler and other gamblers. I look at the lay a little bit differently. I look at it a lot like, you know, you're placing. An extreme example of this was you're gonna place your NFL bets on Sunday morning, and you you play NFL bet Sunday morning, right, gil uh, Sunday morning. But also, I thought you met Sunday Monday morning. Excuse me, Monday morning, the beginning of the week, Monday, so correct the lines come out, You're like, that line should be seven, it's five. Now, that line should be ten, it's seven. Now. You place your bets on Monday. So the even a five second delay in player anytime, it's just a microcosm of the problem of Let's assume you place all of your bets on Monday morning. You you walk over there at the South Point ticketing writer, you say, I want the Cowboys minus seven, I want the Steelers plus ten. I want the Packers plus three, and he takes those tickets. He says, of course, sir, let me just you know, set them here, and you know, sometime later this week, when the spin is done, I'll let you know if you have your bets. Now, Thursday comes around and well, you know, Packers plus three is now plus two and a half. Sorry, yo, would you like to take the two and a half. Would you like this one back? Meanwhile, Cowboys plus ten is now about to twelve? Well, what do you know, plus ten's already in your account. You better hope they don't lose by eleven. To me, the delay, the five seconds, ten seconds, it's just a you know, a much smaller yeah, the exact same. And and and sometimes they argue, oh, well, you know, let's let's say they you know, gave let's say, you know, on the ones they move against you, you know, they give you the they're like, oh, we'll give you the bet at the current price. You know, but they're still, you know, they're still looking at your bets. They're saying, okay, these these five are good bets. Rejected, these five were bad bets, and they either accept them as is, or maybe they generously give you the minus one tand the current market. Right. But either way, what they're doing is they're looking at all of the bets that you're making and they're selectively rejecting the ones that were good, you know. And that's what the delay is about, you know. And this happens even if someone's actually not looking at the bets rejecting it. I mean, in my example, remember he just sent him on the counter and then looked at him later. He didn't think about him, he did and say, oh, this one's no good, this one's good. He just took the ones where the line in your line was still available on Thursday. And that's the same thing that happens live even on a you know, even on a five second delay. A much more vivid way of describing this. Now, I know you're gonna I know, I get ten lashes for this, but this has what what you're doing is what Layman have described as the pinnacle model. Right. I know you don't want I just created about this. I know, I know you uh, but okay, so let me ask you this. So we know, are good friends over at CIRCA do they don't have an algorithm they're trying to you know, in many ways give betters as legit and offering in game as you guys are. Um, do you worry? Do you worry? By the way, are you familiar with Mustard Bet at all? I've heard the name Okay, Andrew Grood who used to who was the lead developer of the micas algorithm about ten years ago. Uh, it was a British derivatives trader eventually became the CEO of Mustard Bet. He he attempted to do this, um and was like, all smart betters, come on, We're going to make this as as you know, great and a betting experience, talking about all the things you're talking about here as possible. They didn't end up working out. Do you ever think to yourself, as well intentioned as you are, that it's just so hard to compete in a world where there's you know, a much much you know, there's a new gambling generation that doesn't know better, and as hard as we try to educate you guys especially try to educate that a new generation is going to be sucked in by any gambling offerings and even though what might be better for them over here is just gonna get trumped by marketing dollars on the Why can't you have both skill? Why can't you have the grand marketing and the product. That's why we don't like the term pinnacle model, because the product and the branding, there's there's nothing that has to tie these two things together. There's no reason that I mean Circus crushing it on Brandy for instance. There's no reason that the company like Circa, they're doing it already, can't combine branding with product. There's no rule that says, well, if you brand well, that means you need to lace and kick everybody out. It's there's nowhere in the gambling books as I say that, right, Yeah, I mean that's the fun. That's why this you know conversation always you know, just drives me crazy because that's why I started with a ten lash. It's like it's like a complete false psychotomy. I mean, everyone's like, you gotta you gotta either, you know. I mean, it's just it's to me, it's you know, to me, what's the right idea of the right idea is to build the best customer experience. You know, what's the best customer experience? Well, part of that is having an amazing sports book, having you know, saying you know, bonuses where they can you know, go see the Cowboys game. I mean all the stuff that you know, people associate with the kind of recreational stuff, and it's having a better product, is having a product that works better for real gamblers. I mean to me, that's what a better customer experience is. It's both, right, No, I and I don't think anybody would disagree that both things in a perfect world could could coexist. Right. It's not a dichotomy, it's not a it's not a binary choice by any by any stretch. But you would acknowledge maybe you wouldn't. Uh, I think you might though that with the margins you would have, it's tougher to sustain the business over something that's obviously egregious, like you're up against that in terms of it's just harder for you to to maybe not to scale it. Maybe it is. I think at some point that the math is going to change from I want my ten percent hold not to my five percent hold to wait a second, you know, five percent of a hundred million is more than ten percent of ten million. Yeah, well boy, I hope so. Yeah. By the way, I hope you're not taking this any you know, I'm just and we're a technology company. I mean, I mean our focus is to build the technology to enable an operator to offer this to their customers. So let's say there's a technology cut cut, you know, Let's say there's an operator that is crushing it on branding. Let's say it's let's say it's Sarka, I mean Circu is doing a great job. Let's say it's someone else. It's an operator that says, you know what piece we're missing, We're missing this part of the customer experience. You know. That's who can come to us and we can basically provide a ready solution for them. Is that what would you say is your number one challenge? Is it somewhere in that area or is it something else? I figured out number one challenges getting the entire product you know, nailed. And if you if if the only advantage you have as a company, here's your products better? Well by does it better to be so much better? And that's you know, we're getting it from this much better and making sure it's you know, I'm on the radio here and move my hands, but you get the idea. That's all right, that's all right. You are watching as well. Visa dot Com, the Visa f Fubo slinging game plus. Um, yeah, but but I mean you you said it's it's not industry specific to this, right, you said at Matthew, which is if if this was a meritocracy, if the world was one big meritocracy, the world would be so much different, right sadly. Um, so much of what we experience of life, if not all, is not based on merit. It's based on so many other factors. And so you know, I think it's fascinating the it's such a huge endeavor that you've undertaken and really is probably I mean, you guys have moved from the thing to thing. I wouldn't imagine there's is there an act after this or is this kind of what you guys are singularly focused on for the right now? This is this is more than enough. Yeah, you know, we're we're grinding away at it, and I think what we're doing is good and we're gonna see where this goes. How many eployees do you have? Now? What's the seventeen seventeen employees? Good for you guys, man, Uh, you're doing you're doing great work man, And Uh to the extent that we can promote it everything you're doing. Colorado is a phenomenal jurisdiction with with the rules. Would you say that that's the best in the country so far? In New Jersey obviously has done very well. Would you say Colorado is the most favorable. I mean, I'm not an expert, but it's it's got to be up there. It's could be number one, you know. I I haven't looked at all the rules and regulations. It's more for the lord. What yeah, what do you let let me put that different way. What are you eyeing? Like, what's the big you know, what's the big one to drop in the future? What is the is it California? California? And I mean I think that this all could come faster now than maybe, you know, maybe a year ago, with the current political climate and you know, state it's looking for budget and I think there's rural opportunity. But we mentioned Circle before, and I mean there's real opportunity for a company like that with the you know, the right branding, the right product to to to really drive a wedge into the current uh I'll call eurocentric part of the U S industry. That's right. The Eurocentric part of of the the industry. Is that what drives you the most? Crazy? Last question? I think in America we have a deep seated gambling culture. I've spent twenty years with American gamblers and sometimes I have to say what I hear from coming out of Europe rings a little hollow to me. I think they kind of don't get us. So I wanna I want an American gambling company that knows Americans to succeed here kind of don't get us, you know, I was. I was doing work with j Rute over an MGM when he was an MGM VP of of racing sports over there for many years, and you know, euro influence came in there. It was not only they don't get the American but sort of an arrogance. Do you find that that arrogance is waning at all or only increasing? If you we don't have our nose quite to the grindstone enough on that. But I will say it is certainly our passion to bring a fairness first, American centric, you know, to to to to make the American sports market market markedly different than the European market. That's our passion. When you say, is this the you know we're gonna end with this well, I mean, this is going to continue, whether you know with us or you know with our you know another company, somebody is going to do this and do it well. Deck Prism is the name of the company, um, perhaps at a sports book near you already as we speak of the book The Logic of Sports Betting, given away a couple of copies at least, and live on Twitter. Ed Miller, Matthew david Ow. Thank you guys so much, appreciate it. Thanks, thank you.