Dr. Steven Gundry on the Secrets of Longevity

Published Aug 27, 2019, 4:05 AM

Is there really a fountain of youth? Well, not exactly… but renowned cardiothoracic surgeon Dr. Steven Gundry has come pretty close to cracking the code to living longer and healthier.  In this interview, he’s pulling back the curtain on the secrets of those who look and feel young at any age, and what everyone can do starting right now. He's the author of the book "The Longevity Paradox: How to Die Young at a Ripe Old Age."

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You know it's trite, but you are what you eat, but you are what the thing you're eating. Eight. And if I can get people to change certain foods that they've accepted as healthy all of their lives, all sorts of things happen. Hi, I'm Dr Oz and this is the Doctor Oz Podcast. Is there really a fountain of youth? Well, perhaps not exactly a fountain youth, but renown cardiothoracic surgeon, good friend Dr Stephen Gundry has come pretty cool to cracking the coat today. He's pulled. He's here. He's gonna pull back the curtain on the secrets of those who look and few younger in the age, and he's gonna reveal how everyone listening right now can do exactly that. Dr under the actually being here before we get this issue of aging. That's talking about someone who aged very beautifully, a man who actually you made national international news with Dr Leonard Bailey baby Faye, Baby Faye, and this whole idea of taking his genographs, taking animal hearts and put them in the babies who we couldn't get hearts for it. You're a young surgeon at that time, almost watching from the outside, just it's almost impossible to envision to have been being conceived, much less executed, and he just passed away. So I'd like to celebrate him for seconds. Since you guys work so closely together, give us one that background. Yeah, you know, we he was affectionately known as the Gentle Giant, and he's he's very tall individual. But he hugged everybody, and most surgeons are not huggers, as you probably aware. You know, we're fired fire, let's get in and drop our bomb and get out. But Leonard Bailey, Um, I mean, he really was the general Giant, and he had such a strength of convictions and love of people, and he actually, I think taught me more humanity than than any of my mentors. And he was my partner for you know, for most of my career, and I learned so much from that man. So we're both heart surgeons. Leonard specialty as well. Within the field. The idea of transplating an animal heart into a human was extraordinarily controversial. That's one of the reasons that made international news when you tried it. What was give us give me some of the inside story of how that came about, Uh, why you finally did it? And what you what in retrospect, what are your thoughts about it? Well, you know what what happened with on that day is that, you know, Dr Bailey had been experimenting on animals on primarily um baboon to go to go to baboon, and had actually developed this to a fine science, and he had some really great immunologists who were working with him, a sand Nelson Candarella, and he pretty much had convinced at least himself and the entire team that this was feasible. And I remember this was back in the day when there really was no good treatment for hypoplastic left heart syndrome. And quite honestly, the baby is born with no real heart and there's no left heart, and they're just barely alive because you were in your mother's belly, but you're nothing outside. Yeah, and except for you know Bill Norwood in Philadelphia, babies were sent home to die and the mother was given the option. You know, we can keep the baby here and let it die, or you can dig it home and let it die. And that was the option. And one day he talked to a mother and said, you know, this is what's going to happen. But you know, I'm convinced that I've got this figured out enough that it's certainly worth a worth a while to try this and and even if we fail. He actually told the mother this, I think that this will be the start of something that can help children in the future. And she said, you know, let's let's do it. My baby is going to die. And he remember his press conferences, he took a lot of hate. People would call him, they would show up at his house and say, we're going to kill your two boys. So that you know what the mother Baboon felt like by you taking this baby Baboon's heart, and I mean, it was that radical. And he just kept He actually just said, look you, my goodness. You know, we we eat animals and we think nothing of taking those animals from their mothers and eating them. And you know, we take pigs and take their hearts and we take their valves and we think nothing of this. So is the slippery slope maybe so? Well, you know, much of my career working with Dr Bailey was looking at Zeno transplants using pigs as a model. It was actually a lot of the work in using pigs as a Zeno transplant that actually made me discover this autoimmune attack on the inside of blood vessels. That was the final stop in doing Zeno transplants with pigs. We now know that we can genetically engineer pigs to get rid of that sugar molecule that you and I know new five g C. But uh, you know, I think if he hadn't done that, I think the whole field of infant hart transplantation probably wouldn't have happened because that that moment he knew that you could do this um and do it successfully. I mean maybe Fay lived for twenty odd days and baby Fay actually died we think from an a bo miscom habibility of blood type miscompatibility rather than anything else. So, uh, what I have done? No, Uh, I think he was actually the right person at the right time. He I mean this, this guy was the calmest person under fire I think I've ever been. The amazing thing to me is you were there. This is equivalent everyone of putting a man in the moon. You know, putting an animal heart into a human and then jump starting a process was a lot with lots of other derivative benefits. And you've taken your career from there to where most people know you now as a gentleman who's figured out more about aging than most of us. Dr election radically reinjured her some of the thought processes around foods that are quote unquote good for you, bad for you, and breaking down some of those berries and making us realize there's subtle things in there that plants you to protect themselves and we should have all along at least expected that. And why wouldn't we protect itself from us the way we protect ourselves from other predators. Right, So I think that's siv into that little bit, But I wanted to make you established a hard science background that there's an opportunity to reinvent yourselves no matter where you are in your career, and you've done that. So I applaud you on that aging which is what the longevity paradox about. Why do you think we've gotten aging at least somewhat wrong? What are the big breakthrough ideas that you've garnered over a career of challenging orthodoxy. Well, I think the main point point of the book is the aging process we've been taught is something that's inevitable, that obviously we are going to die. And then my epilogue, I talked about we're all going to die, get over it. Whether you're Dave Asprey and you're gonna die at eight or you're gonna be me and die at a hundred fifty. We're all gonna die, even Dave. So the point is we we've come to think of aging is not a very pleasant thing to look forward to. And that's actually why it's called the longevity paradox. We all want to live a long time, but when we look at what that involves, um, hippon, knee replacement, heart surgery, stance, cancer, dementia, Uh, you know, sitting in an old hole folks home. There's a new movie out that I guess, um, I've forgotten who the protagonist is. That she checks into the nursing home. She's she said, what are you here for? She said, I've kind of here to die. And I think that's a very interesting way of looking at And you know, I practice in Palm Springs, which is, you know, nicknamed God's Waiting Room for a very good reason. But so I've had the benefit I'm actually the only now nutritionists who's actually spent most of their career in a blue zone, low Melinda, California, And some of my critics say, you know, you're all wrong. You know, what do you know about blue zones. Well, I'm the only one who's actually lived there and studied these people. And so getting back to aging, the amazing thing is um not only my research, but a lot of other very smart people's research has shown that we actually age by the lining of our gut slowly breaking down or quickly breaking down. And one of the things I like people to imagine is our our gut, which is the lining of our gut is the size of a tennis court and it's only one self thick. And that gut, that lining is actually our skin turned inside up. And we know that when people get older, people look at your skin and it gets thin, and you know, you touch it and it peels away and there's bruising all over the place. Well, that's actually a reflection of how strong the inner wall of your gut is. And there's there's beautiful experiments that have been done in this cute little worm called c. Elegans, And every experiment that's ever been done and see el agans has been duplicated in higher animals, including rhesus monkeys, and it's predicted what happens to us. And these even this little tiny worm, the bacteria that live in its gut, it's microbiome as that back those bacteria break down this little single cell wall of its gut, it ages. And the faster it breaks down this wall, the faster this little critter ages. And I've become convinced that Hippocrates was absolutely right that all disease begins in the gut. And he knew this twenty five hundred years ago, and we didn't know any of this until five years ago. The human Microbiome project was finished, and this guy years ago, so hey, guess what. All disease begins in the gut. So you know, I see arthritis get reversed by changing diets and getting Lecton's out of your diet. I see. The thing that started me off on this was watching a gentleman who I call Big Head, reverse his coronary artery disease by changing his diet. And I see it all the time, and people who I've actually had ready to go on the operating table and they got scared and say, is there another way? And I say, well, yeah, but you know you're gonna have to listen to me. And these people, now these are diabetics, multi vessel coronary art disease, had a heart attack. Some of these people now we're celebrating their fifteenth year after telling me I don't want to go through this operation. They have normal stress test, normal antigrams. There's lots more will be come back. Yeah. So what was the paradox? What was the surprising part the fifth any in your own health but also those of your patients that got you realized. But you know, we missed some of the story here. And what are the big changes people have to make that void be on your our table more importantly, to live gracefully in the longevity. You know it's trite, but you are what you eat, but you are what the thing you're eating. Eight And if I can get people to change certain foods that they have accepted as healthy all of their lives, all sorts of things happened. Let me let me give you an example. Um, The whole idea that we should be eating healthy whole grains as a staple of our diet actually began in the late eighteen hundreds, in early nineteen hundreds from those famous Seventh Day Adventice the Kellogg's brothers and the Collogs brothers in Battle Creek, Michigan, actually had a sanitarium that they wanted people to eat whole grains for good all movements. And what most people don't know is they actually firmly believed that if you ate whole grains, it would tamp down your sexual desires and it would prevent masturbation. I kid you not look it up because you're off stuffed, and you were you were feeling bloated, so you didn't feel like I'm cutting out cutting out a whole grains for my wife. So and they actually um their food was so horrible with their whole grains that people were making tooth teeth on them, and they were so against sugar. And then Will said they actually one of their patients was w C Post post toast ease and grape nuts, and he stole their idea. And Will got so mad at his brother. He said, this is ridiculous. You know, this guy is now making a fortune on our idea, and we're going to do this and we're going to put sugar in it and we're gonna rinded up so fine and people will actually eat the stuff and it was called predigested food, and they started an advertising campaign to convince people that number one, this should be your breakfast and number two, you know, a bowl of Kellogg's corn flakes was predigested and was the perfect way to treat you know, irritable bow and which actually caused irrible bow. But we've been eating greens for a long time, brothers, that's true. We moment and I were in southern Turkey in this place called go Beckley Teppe, which is a civilization or at least the remnants of one that was from twelve thousand two years ago and to nine thousand six BC, and they were still hunter gatherers. They were not they hadn't had the agricultural revolution, but they they had jars of green there that they they've uncovered. So we've been eating greens for at least twelve thousand years. It wasn't the Kelloggs that ga of that, no, but that's been the modern iteration of grains. But you know that that was my research at Yale is an undergraduate and you could take you could look at early man up until the agricultural revolution, and we were about six ft tall at that point and our brain size was bigger than it is today, and after the agricultural revolution we shrunk about a foot and it's actually and our brain size shrunk and we've never recovered. Now I propose that that's because of the ill effects of these things. In fact, the very famous frozen man in the Alps of northern Italy about five thousand years old. He's riddled with arthritis and osteoporosis. And in he's wearing kind of a tunic, and in the pockets of his tunic is iron horn wheat, the ancient wheat, and it's in his pockets. And I think it's you just sit there and look at that and say, you know, that's what these people were eating, and look at the ill effects of them, and maybe we should learn from that. I'll take it one step further. Yes, there are blue zones that eat whole grains, and there are blue zones that eat beans. But we have to remember that Okinawa, which is a blue zone, believe it or not, they do not eat whole grains. Most of their diet is the purple sweet potato. They do not eat soy They eat miso and natow. They don't eat soy beans or tofu and they eat white rice. Only about six percent of their diet is white rice, not not brown rice. And you know four billion people in this world who use rice as their staple eat white rice instead of brown rice. So maybe these people are a lot smarter than we think. It was just because they could store it for a longer time, so you could go through periods of faminine. No, actually, whole grain store is just fine. It's when you grind up whole grain that you expose the germ and the fats to oxidation. And that's why in this country when we have a whole grain product, we have to put so many preservatives to prevent oxidation, most of which are endocrine disruptors. So this whole idea that whole grains are healthy for us, I got to disagree. And even the adventis Um. The advent is Is use a lot of soy products, but their soy product is texturized vegetable protein t VP. That's soy that has been extruded under high heat and high pressure to make that product. And I think these Adventus were incredibly clever. That's their mystery meat and so pressure cooking, high heat, high pressure will destroy most lectins. And if you look at traditional cultures, even back ten thousand years ago, the storage systems were horrible, and so most of these grains naturally fermented, and most of these cultures had fermentation processes to d nature electus. Fermentation is a really good way to kill off lectans. It really is to this day the same way with beans. When you study cultures that do use beans, and I've studied a lot of them, they soak their beans for forty eight hours and they change the water every four to six hours because lectons will leach out in water, and so then you cook your beans for a very long time. In Italy and tuscany where they do eat a lot of beans, they will cook their beans for days in a glass pot after they've soaked it for forty eight hours. The at Chols in southern Italy, south of Naples, the town with the largest amount of people over a hundred years of age in any town, over thirty percent of the population is over a hundred years of page, and they have a phenomenal diet. They do not eat bread, they do not eat postum, They eat lentils, they eat anchovies, They have a huge amount of olive oil, and they eat little anchi little anchovies as their only animal protein. So what produced do they eat? So they'll yeah, so they'll eat vegetables. They eat a lot of a lot of lettuces. They love lettuces, a lot of cruciferous vegetables. Just as an interesting aside, one of the most popular cells in Italy is tricolori, and tricoloria is ridicio, Belgian en dive and arugula. Two of those, radiquiol and Belgian and dive or chickory and chickery plants have the highest amount of inulin of any really plants the chickory family. And it just so happens in the book The Longevity Paradox that this cute little microbe called ackerman sea mucinophilia loves inulin. And I think those Italians are clever because look, their favorite salad is two inuline containing plants and arugula, which is a cruciferous vegetable because on a broccoli and they pour olive oil over it and they pour balsa mcmner grow over. And this bacteria you mentioned, achamancia, I'm told I've read that it's found in higher percentages and skinny people, which is again so paradoxical. And I don't know if giving achamancia to use you don't go out there start to eat. You can't, Yeah, you can't. Nobody has figured out how to way to get it into us yet, but it's actually there. And interestingly enough, we now know that met Foreman though, you know, the most famous diabetic drug works not by any mystical magical thing of changing our glucose metabolism. It actually increases the proportion of acramancam usinophilia. So I I interrupted. You were moving on from the oldest lived population south of Naples two and the anchovies are so. One of the uniting feature of the Blue zones is not that they eat grange and beans. It's not that they eat a low fat diet. I mean it's three of the Blue zones actually use a leader of olive oil per week. That's a lot of olive oil. Um. I try to do that, David Promotor does that. The unifying feature is that all of these communities do not eat a lot of animal protein. Animal protein is a minimal part of their diet. And it makes me very sad. Uh. You know, I grew up in Olmhna Braskian the beef state, you know, be for breakfast, beef for dinner, and then a side of port, you know whatever. But the exposure to low melenda and getting to know Dr Gary Fraser, who has been in charge of the Adventice health study. I mean, here you have a community where you can under a microscope follow these people, and Adventice will cheat. Um, they're supposed to be vegetarians or vegans, but occasionally fish will sneak in and chicken will sneak in. But he's tracked these people, these long, long, long lived people, and the longest living Adventice or vegans, followed by the Lacta Wovo vegetarians, followed by the Pascatarians. And you just recently published a paper that says, sorry, guys, any addition of animal protein will increase your risk of heart disease and early death compared to none at all. Now I think you'd mitigate against that. And a lot of the book is okay, you know, I want my cake and eat it too, uh, don't we all? And one of the ways to mitigate against this is number one. Valter Longo from USC Gerontology Center has shown that if you eat a low calorie vegan diet for five days a week a fasting mimicking diet of about eight to nine hundred calories five days in a row. You will act as if you were on at calorie stricted diet for the entire month. You will activate stem cells as if you were on a water fast. You will activate your you will renew your immune system as if you were on a water fast. And yet you can still eat. So in my book, and Walter Longo has given me a nice shout out on the book. Um, I say, hey, five days a week, you know, eat five days a month, sorry, five days a month, you four or five days in a row. Just eat a vegan diet which is not too hard to do, believe it or not. And I give recipes on it, and you're going to get You can cheat. You can have your cake and eat it too, but please don't make your cake out of your wheat. More questions after the break. The foods that surprise us, that have lots of lectons. If you don't mind it, everyone define electins so they know what it is. And then I love you to walk us through examples of some of the mistakes we make that maybe we can have hacks that have you already mentioned pressure cooking and soaking beans, but there are other examples you give share with me in the past as well. Sure, so, electons are the defense system, one of the defense systems of a plant against being eaten. Uh, it's a sticky protein that is that binds too sugar molecules. Are they all bad? No, there are actually some good lectings out there. There are some pretty interesting lectons in garlic. That's actually very beneficial, I believe or not. Lectons are very important communication system between cells. And you and I know about lectons because we were taught about blood types. Man electons were for is discovered in typing blood. We introduce a lectin into a tube of blood and if that lectin binds to one red blood cell, it will bind to another and they will agglutinate and that will tell us what your blood type is depending on the lectin that is on that sticks to a sugar molecule. For instance, I've got a paper where I make I think my second really good case that lectins are a cause of an autoimmune attack on the surface of our blood vessels, and that removing lectins from humans diet actually reduces dramatically that inflammation on the surface of blood vessels. So I propose, and other people proposed this, that inflammation and autoimmune attack on the blood vessels is actually the major cause of heart disease. And you know, one of the greatest our surgeons of all time, and Michael de Baking, who you and I both had the pleasure of knowing when he was alive, always said back in the fifties that cholesterol had nothing to do with plaque in the arteries. It was an innocent bystander that basically was an ambulance that got caught up in this war that was going on on the surface of the blood vessel. And I think it was right. So it means push you a couple of dies that are popping now Paleo diet thoughts. Yeah, So interestingly enough, The Plant Paradox my original big blockbuster of and it actually still is. It's still simultaneously the number one paleo diet on Amazon and the number one vegetarian diet on Amazon simultaneous. It's the Pagan diet Mary Vegan. Yes, I mean, it's crazy but iconic book. Only two or three years after two years exactly two years So the interesting thing about the paleo and with the keto diet, I look at ketosis on every one of my patients. Most people who think they're doing a ketogenic diet or a paleo diet are not in ketosis. That's because in general, both the paleo and the keto diet emphasizes a large amount of animal meats and proteins and fats. And I think that I talked about this in the book, that Ansel Keys, who is the original what everybody says was the anti fat fanatic, he was actually very afraid of animal saturated fats. He actually did not fear plant based fats like olive oil, like avocados for instance. In fact, hilariously, dr Keys retired to a village right next at Roli, south of Naples, and he died just shy of his hundred second birthday. So he's actually the longest lived nutritionists. And I've had the pleasure of interviewing his housekeeper, and his housekeeper said that the guy just drank olive oil day and night. And so here's the original anti fat guy who's held up by his fingernails by the paleo community. And yet he never said that fat was bad. What he wanted to have people avoid was animal fat. And I've read all of his work many many times, and I think what the connection he didn't get with animal fat is that animal fat is almost always associated with animal protein, and it was the protein that was the troublemaker. Now, having said that, as you know of people carry the Appoe four gene, which is nicknamed the Alzheimer's jam, and I and others have shown that animal fats, saturated fats, including coconut oil, is really mischievous to people who carry the Apoe for gene, they do not transport fats properly. And you know, Dale Brettison the end of Alzheimer's uses my program in his program, the Recode program. So I think I think saturated fats in a keto diet or paleo diet are mischievous for most people. Having said that fat is actually good for most people as long as it's plant based fats like avocado oil, like like olive oil is still the best. M CT oil is probably safe for most people, which is a derivation of coconut oil. Uh and avocados. Avocados are phenomenal for its are okay, coconuts are great. Coconut milks, okay, But for the apple E four is, please stay away from coconuto because it's saturated. Yeah. And when I've studied, study lots of apple four folks, because they come to me, and these people really, they will kick up their small dense l d ls, they will kick up their oxidized l deals whenever we expose them to these sorts of saturated fats. Would you tell someone with that gene profile to eat no fat? No I hate Yeah, just lots and lots of avocados. Yeah, avocados are great. No, there's no saturated fat. It's all monoan saturated fat. Monoline saturated fats are fine. But the other interesting thing is there's a beautiful paper out that shows that people with the appoe forging highly benefit from taking fish oil. And there's some beautiful studies out recently that shows that with fish oil in the appoe forging. And I'm sorry to get technical, but you actually have to take a phospho lipid that's present in krill oil to deliver fish oil into your brain properly if you're an a and uh so, just to take a take a rapid questions which vitamin do you do you think we get the least of that we should blown us up on vitamin D three. We are profoundly deficient in this country in vitamin D three. Every one of my autoimmune patients that I see, and I now my practice is autommune disease walks in with a low vitamin D. Vitamin D is critical for sealing the wall of your gut. It's critical to turn on stem cells. There's a beautiful paper that I cite that shows, if you believe in the telomere theory of aging, those little caps on chromosomes, that people who have the highest level of vitamin D have the longest telomeres and people who have the lowest levels of vitamin D have the shortest levels. And I have yet to see vitamin D toxicity. The University of California, San Diego says the average human being should take nine thousand, six hundred international it's a vitamin D a day. Do you take a multi vitamin every now and then? I really, um, you know, I have several of my own products that pretty much cover the bases. But yeah, multi vitamin is not going to hurt you. But trace minerals are probably far more important than just the multi vitamin. The other thing that's important for most people who know is it or more people will carry a mutation of the mt h f R gene, better known as in my clinic as the mother effr gene. What do you do with that one? So you gotta take methyl B twelve, and you gotta take methyl full eight, and you gotta put the methyl B twelve under your tongue. It will not work if you swallow it or chew it or suck on it. You can get a shot, or you get a shot, but why bother? You know you can get a methyl B twelve from Costco and it's cheap. Are you vegan? No? I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I'm what I call a pescatarian. Uh not pesctarian, sorry, I vegge aquarian. So my wife and I in general will eat vegan during the week and then on the weekends we usually have wild shellfish or wildfish. I have one more question from it before you wrap up. You mentioned the microbiome at the beginning of this, and I feel like your book has a lot on the microbiome, and we do all about the microbiome, so we just really briefly summed up its people think they take a generic probiotic and they fix their microbiome. Please give us, like the very the headline of how we actually do fix it. So, the vast majority of probiotics that we swallow never make it into our gut number one, because the stomach acid destroys them. Number Two, these probiotics are not normal flora in our gut. They basically, if they make it in, go on vacation in our guts for a couple of weeks and then they leave. You know, they kind of hang out at the beach down in Florida and then they leave. What's fascinating is that we actually have a little collection of important microbes at the bottom of what are called crips in our micro villa, and they're protected down there. And even if we wipe out our microbiome with antibiotics, if you give these guys what they want to eat, they will come out of hiding and repopulate. So the key is not the probiotics. The key is prebiotics, the things that these guys like to eat, and prebiotics are things like inuline. I mean, it's probably the best prebiotic. Yeah, tubers are great. You know, get yourself some yams tuber that's a night shade, so a sweep potato or a yam ruda, Bega's turnips, the things you know our grandparents used to eat in large amounts. He came up. You know, grab yourself some hicum U get yourself some guacamole. And you know, spoiler alert, guacamole is not made with tomatoes. And use the hicama to dip your guacamole. You know, it's the perfect food for your gut bugs. I've been hearing a lot about colostoms, maybe something that might help people who are trying to either take probiotics or take prebiox and help their intestinal regrowth. Thoughts on that. Yeah, So colostrum is kind of the first um melk of of any animal and including humans, and it's loaded with him, you know, globulins and that. I don't have any professional connection with these guys, but there's a there's a product that you can find in your drug store called dia Rescue, and I take it on all my international trips, particularly if i'm doing it. I did a mission in Ethiopia a couple of months ago, and it cures diarrhea, and it's primarily clostrum with a couple of really cool at An ingredients, and luckily I had some on the trip. I didn't need it, but basically cured our group that we're traveling with. The they're actually integration partners on the show, which is why I knew about them. But I'm asking that about them, but about the actual colostrum itself. Should because I know that that more and more folks are telling me that they might help our intestines address issues with a microbio. You've got to seal the wall of your gut, and you've really got to take control of what I call the gang members and our guy. There's there's two fighting, you know, opposing forces, and your gout. There's good guys what I call gut buddies, and then the gang members. And the gang members do not like us. They throw rocks through our windows as opposed to all of our gut buddies. We are actually a condominium for our microbiome. N of us is not us. It's bugs and worms and viruses, and we are their home. And the principle of this book is if we eat to take care of the ninety percenters, then they will take care of their home. And the really cool thing is, do you look at a hundred five year old people who are thriving around the world and you look at their microbiome number one, it's very diverse. There's lots of these, but they have the microbiome of a thirty year old healthy individual at the same microbiome, and they have the same microbiome as my of my favorite animal, the naked mole rat. And there's a lot about the naked mole rat. And please have your listeners google naked naked mole rats the uglies. What do you love so much about the naked mole rat? So the naked mole rat rats live about two years. The naked molerat has been clocked at twenty or thirty years of age. There is no known death of a naked mole rat. And what they do is they have the same genes as all the other rats, but they eat. They live in underground tunnels. They eat tubers and fun guy and mushrooms. And the book is all about how eating tubers and fun guys and mushroom will make you a naked mole rat. And guess what, all the other rats eat grains and they don't make it very long. On that note, the longevity Paradox How to Die Young at the right bold age by Gundry, as you can either a little canaked mole rat hor or hopefully you've been better and hopefully you will not look like a negative noble rap another pipe tash spectacular contributions, so they're sure, but Dr Gundrew, good to see you get my friends, thank you for having me always. Good to see you both

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