Pushkin.

Pushkin.

I was basically like steadily marching down the path to what I thought was the good, successful life. Take the high status sounding job and just put your head down, and if you do that for long enough, you'll wake up and you'll have made a bunch of money.

I was basically like steadily marching down the path to what I thought was the good, successful life. Take the high status sounding job and just put your head down, and if you do that for long enough, you'll wake up and you'll have made a bunch of money.

You'll be happy, fulfilled, etc.

You'll be happy, fulfilled, etc.

Sawhill Bloom spent years working as a financial advisor, putting in long hours and cashing huge paychecks. But even though he'd found career success, he wasn't happy. He started to question whether the life he was building was actually what he wanted.

Sawhill Bloom spent years working as a financial advisor, putting in long hours and cashing huge paychecks. But even though he'd found career success, he wasn't happy. He started to question whether the life he was building was actually what he wanted.

My entire definition of success, of what it meant to build a wealthy life had been incomplete. I was prioritizing one thing at the expense of everything else.

My entire definition of success, of what it meant to build a wealthy life had been incomplete. I was prioritizing one thing at the expense of everything else.

On today's show, hitting pause on the rat race, and defining success on your own terms. I'm Maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. When was the last time you checked in with yourself and asked if you were really living out your values? Today's conversation is about questioning your beliefs and being more intentional about what you prioritize. These are the kinds of ideas that Sahil explores in his book The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design your Dream Life. Growing up saw Hill saw firsthand the value of defying social norms and challenging other people's expectations.

On today's show, hitting pause on the rat race, and defining success on your own terms. I'm Maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. When was the last time you checked in with yourself and asked if you were really living out your values? Today's conversation is about questioning your beliefs and being more intentional about what you prioritize. These are the kinds of ideas that Sahil explores in his book The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design your Dream Life. Growing up saw Hill saw firsthand the value of defying social norms and challenging other people's expectations.

My parents came from very different backgrounds in worlds. My mom was born and raised in India. Her father was a professor, my father was raised in the Bronx, New York, and the collision of their lives was a very unlikely one. My mom had applied in secret to come to university in the US, my dad was finishing his dissertation, and my mom was working in the library at the school to kind of pay her way through program that she had applied to, and the two of them connecting and building a kind of thriving love and relationship was just extraordinarily unlikely, and it was an example of them choosing to create their own path rather than accept one by default. My dad's father was not accepting of the idea of his son marrying an Indian woman and told him that he had to choose between his family and her, and my dad walked out the door and never saw his family again. To this day, I never met my dad's parents. He has three siblings I never met all through this decision to choose love over the conventional path that was handed to them.

My parents came from very different backgrounds in worlds. My mom was born and raised in India. Her father was a professor, my father was raised in the Bronx, New York, and the collision of their lives was a very unlikely one. My mom had applied in secret to come to university in the US, my dad was finishing his dissertation, and my mom was working in the library at the school to kind of pay her way through program that she had applied to, and the two of them connecting and building a kind of thriving love and relationship was just extraordinarily unlikely, and it was an example of them choosing to create their own path rather than accept one by default. My dad's father was not accepting of the idea of his son marrying an Indian woman and told him that he had to choose between his family and her, and my dad walked out the door and never saw his family again. To this day, I never met my dad's parents. He has three siblings I never met all through this decision to choose love over the conventional path that was handed to them.

And so I would say, if there.

And so I would say, if there.

Was one value that was more important than any other in our family, it was the idea of independent thinking, of cultivating an environment to question things and not feel apprehensive or any degree of shame associated with that questioning. But that's a difficult thing to understand or internalize as a kid.

Was one value that was more important than any other in our family, it was the idea of independent thinking, of cultivating an environment to question things and not feel apprehensive or any degree of shame associated with that questioning. But that's a difficult thing to understand or internalize as a kid.

It is a really difficult thing to internalize. And in your case, you know, despite these values at home, you still grew up very eager to achieve right. You were still influenced by other social pressures. And this was in part because your older sister was very academically gifted and received lots of praise from teachers.

It is a really difficult thing to internalize. And in your case, you know, despite these values at home, you still grew up very eager to achieve right. You were still influenced by other social pressures. And this was in part because your older sister was very academically gifted and received lots of praise from teachers.

Yeah, unfortunately, I would say, from a young age, I started telling myself a story that I was not capable of the same level of achievement academically as my sister. There were a couple of instances, first second grade whatever it would be, where I would get to a class they would say, oh, your Sonali's brother, Like all this hope and excitement that I was going to be the next star student. And then I was kind of into like, you know, dicking around for lack of a better word, it said. I was like, you know, I was a kid. I was really active, I was really rambunctious, and I would inevitably sort of disappoint this teacher. And I could see it in them and in the way that they treated me and acted, and the things they would say to my parents and whatnot. And it started cementing in me this story that I would tell myself that I wasn't that smart, that I had to be good at something else because my sister was the.

Yeah, unfortunately, I would say, from a young age, I started telling myself a story that I was not capable of the same level of achievement academically as my sister. There were a couple of instances, first second grade whatever it would be, where I would get to a class they would say, oh, your Sonali's brother, Like all this hope and excitement that I was going to be the next star student. And then I was kind of into like, you know, dicking around for lack of a better word, it said. I was like, you know, I was a kid. I was really active, I was really rambunctious, and I would inevitably sort of disappoint this teacher. And I could see it in them and in the way that they treated me and acted, and the things they would say to my parents and whatnot. And it started cementing in me this story that I would tell myself that I wasn't that smart, that I had to be good at something else because my sister was the.

Smart one and I wasn't.

Smart one and I wasn't.

And those stories that you tell yourself are really hard to break.

And those stories that you tell yourself are really hard to break.

Absolutely, it sounds like you grew up in a home where it was very clear giving your parents values that their love for you is not contingent upon your success, and they valued free thinking and they valued independent thinking. And so how interesting is it that even in an environment like that, we can grow up feeling the need to prove our value in specific ways, to anchor it to a form of success or wealth or what have you. It's not like you grew up in a family where your parents were like, this is what you need to be valuable to us, they weren't saying that, And I just think it shows how pervasive this need for self validation is.

Absolutely, it sounds like you grew up in a home where it was very clear giving your parents values that their love for you is not contingent upon your success, and they valued free thinking and they valued independent thinking. And so how interesting is it that even in an environment like that, we can grow up feeling the need to prove our value in specific ways, to anchor it to a form of success or wealth or what have you. It's not like you grew up in a family where your parents were like, this is what you need to be valuable to us, they weren't saying that, And I just think it shows how pervasive this need for self validation is.

Yeah, especially when you're young, because so much of your identity is being established in those young years around how other people react to things that you are doing. And I think that when you see those first pieces of evidence of what the scoreboard is, then you're kind of like, Okay, here's the thing that's going to build the evidence bank of what my identity is and who I am. So there's a little bit of like an addicting thing of what you measure, you know, really mattering, because that's where you can make progress. That's the video game, if you will, that we're going to play life around in this family.

Yeah, especially when you're young, because so much of your identity is being established in those young years around how other people react to things that you are doing. And I think that when you see those first pieces of evidence of what the scoreboard is, then you're kind of like, Okay, here's the thing that's going to build the evidence bank of what my identity is and who I am. So there's a little bit of like an addicting thing of what you measure, you know, really mattering, because that's where you can make progress. That's the video game, if you will, that we're going to play life around in this family.

Yeah, so you eventually figured out what your lane was, right you were like, Okay, maybe I'm never going to be as good as Sonali academically, but I'm good at sports. And you ended up getting a baseball scholarship you intended Stanford, huge achievement. Take me back to that time. What role did baseball play when it came to shaping your identity?

Yeah, so you eventually figured out what your lane was, right you were like, Okay, maybe I'm never going to be as good as Sonali academically, but I'm good at sports. And you ended up getting a baseball scholarship you intended Stanford, huge achievement. Take me back to that time. What role did baseball play when it came to shaping your identity?

Hard to overstate how much.

Hard to overstate how much.

My own self worth was defined around these baseball achievements. I basically grew to define my own worth around the sort of external affirmations that I could accumulate in any one thing, and baseball I found to be a very good conduit for accumulating external affirmations, a sport that's very popular. Getting a Division one scholarship was like a big deal. A bunch of people would think you were really impressed. You would get attention from different people, and every single time you got one external affirmation, it made you hungrier to get the next one and the bigger one and whatever it was.

My own self worth was defined around these baseball achievements. I basically grew to define my own worth around the sort of external affirmations that I could accumulate in any one thing, and baseball I found to be a very good conduit for accumulating external affirmations, a sport that's very popular. Getting a Division one scholarship was like a big deal. A bunch of people would think you were really impressed. You would get attention from different people, and every single time you got one external affirmation, it made you hungrier to get the next one and the bigger one and whatever it was.

So it's self fulfilling as well.

So it's self fulfilling as well.

Totally.

Totally.

The problem with those things is that they further cement this narrowness of identity as you do that, where every single one of the pats on the back that you are getting makes you more and more convinced that that is who you are and that that is what you need to continue doing.

The problem with those things is that they further cement this narrowness of identity as you do that, where every single one of the pats on the back that you are getting makes you more and more convinced that that is who you are and that that is what you need to continue doing.

That is the only path. And that really did happen to me.

That is the only path. And that really did happen to me.

Your baseball career ended earlier than expected, and I'm curious about how you personally handled that transition.

Your baseball career ended earlier than expected, and I'm curious about how you personally handled that transition.

It was challenging for me.

It was challenging for me.

I mean, I you know, I thought for many years that I would play professionally. I hurt my shoulder summer after my sophomore year. I had one game when I was pitching and just felt something in the back of my shoulder and didn't really think anything of it.

I mean, I you know, I thought for many years that I would play professionally. I hurt my shoulder summer after my sophomore year. I had one game when I was pitching and just felt something in the back of my shoulder and didn't really think anything of it.

And basically, over the course of two years, it just.

And basically, over the course of two years, it just.

Got worse and worse, and it got to the point where I just couldn't throw effectively anymore.

Got worse and worse, and it got to the point where I just couldn't throw effectively anymore.

At that level.

At that level.

And the hardest part of that entire transition was calling my dad. So much of my and our relationship over the twenty years leading up to that was built around baseball. I thought of him as like the dad who came home from work after a long day and he would always have the energy to go outside with me and play cash in the backyard. He was the one that took me to all my lessons. He was the one that coached my little league teams. He was the one that showed up to all of my high school games. He flew out to all of my college games. I mean, he was my number one supporter in everything that I was doing. And before I called him to let him know that I was going to not be able to play, I had this fear that he was going to be disappointed. And I called him and I was in tears, and I told him, you know, I can't play anymore.

And the hardest part of that entire transition was calling my dad. So much of my and our relationship over the twenty years leading up to that was built around baseball. I thought of him as like the dad who came home from work after a long day and he would always have the energy to go outside with me and play cash in the backyard. He was the one that took me to all my lessons. He was the one that coached my little league teams. He was the one that showed up to all of my high school games. He flew out to all of my college games. I mean, he was my number one supporter in everything that I was doing. And before I called him to let him know that I was going to not be able to play, I had this fear that he was going to be disappointed. And I called him and I was in tears, and I told him, you know, I can't play anymore.

I can't throw.

I can't throw.

And he was like, I'll be there to you with whatever's next, Like whatever your next thing is, I'll be in the front row. And there was so much power in so few words that he had said there, because it was just a reminder that he did not think of me as a baseball player. It was like that identity maybe was something that I had convinced myself that that's who I was, but he didn't. I was his son, and he would support me in whatever it was that I was off and doing. He was going to be in the front row of whatever that was. It was a baseball field, now it's going to be something else, and I'm going to be there for that.

And he was like, I'll be there to you with whatever's next, Like whatever your next thing is, I'll be in the front row. And there was so much power in so few words that he had said there, because it was just a reminder that he did not think of me as a baseball player. It was like that identity maybe was something that I had convinced myself that that's who I was, but he didn't. I was his son, and he would support me in whatever it was that I was off and doing. He was going to be in the front row of whatever that was. It was a baseball field, now it's going to be something else, and I'm going to be there for that.

Yeah. It is interesting how often we can impose beliefs on other people that they don't actually carry right, that aren't rooted in facts. You know, in your book, you write about how you attended college with a bunch of high achievers who measured success by who got the highest offer from Goldman Sachs or from McKinsey, and you know, those norms affected you, right, You really internalize belief that money leads to happiness, and as a result of that, when you graduated, you reached out to the richest people you knew and found out what they did and then thought, Okay, I'm going to do the same thing. And that is ultimately what led you to become a financial advisor.

Yeah. It is interesting how often we can impose beliefs on other people that they don't actually carry right, that aren't rooted in facts. You know, in your book, you write about how you attended college with a bunch of high achievers who measured success by who got the highest offer from Goldman Sachs or from McKinsey, and you know, those norms affected you, right, You really internalize belief that money leads to happiness, and as a result of that, when you graduated, you reached out to the richest people you knew and found out what they did and then thought, Okay, I'm going to do the same thing. And that is ultimately what led you to become a financial advisor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I spent those first seven years of my career after I got done in school basically like steadily marching down the path to what I thought was the like good successful life. You know, take the high status sounding job and just put your head down, and if you do that for long enough, you'll wake up and everything will be good. You'll have made a bunch of money, you'll be happy, fulfilled, et cetera.

I spent those first seven years of my career after I got done in school basically like steadily marching down the path to what I thought was the like good successful life. You know, take the high status sounding job and just put your head down, and if you do that for long enough, you'll wake up and everything will be good. You'll have made a bunch of money, you'll be happy, fulfilled, et cetera.

And all on the way.

And all on the way.

I felt like there was this tendency to make my happiness conditional on some end, Like every year, I'd convince myself that, like, oh, I'm going to feel totally different December thirtieth when my bonus comes in. I'm going to get this much money and this I'm going to be so happy, and over and over again, those mountains, those like you know, summits that I had built up as being my arrival. Were anything, but I would get them, I would feel that momentary blip of kind of dopamine induced euphoria, and then I would reset to whatever right. It was like I'd never done enough. It was just more and more and more, And unfortunately, as the years went by, I became more rather than less focused on money being the path to living a good life. Like as I got around it more and as I got more indoctrinated into this financial culture, I grew sort of these blinders of like, Okay, let me just keep getting more and more, folks, this is what really matters. I grew so convinced that like this one scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area of my life started to show cracks, and my relationships. I was living three thousand miles away from my parents. I was noticing for the first time in my life that they were slowing down, getting older, but we were three thousand miles away. My wife and I were struggling to conceive at the time. Now was creating strain in our relationship. I was drinking six seven nights a week, and it all coincided with a point in time in my life where from the outside looking in, you would have said I was winning the game, and I started to have this sensation that if that was what winning, felt like I had to be playing the wrong game.

I felt like there was this tendency to make my happiness conditional on some end, Like every year, I'd convince myself that, like, oh, I'm going to feel totally different December thirtieth when my bonus comes in. I'm going to get this much money and this I'm going to be so happy, and over and over again, those mountains, those like you know, summits that I had built up as being my arrival. Were anything, but I would get them, I would feel that momentary blip of kind of dopamine induced euphoria, and then I would reset to whatever right. It was like I'd never done enough. It was just more and more and more, And unfortunately, as the years went by, I became more rather than less focused on money being the path to living a good life. Like as I got around it more and as I got more indoctrinated into this financial culture, I grew sort of these blinders of like, Okay, let me just keep getting more and more, folks, this is what really matters. I grew so convinced that like this one scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area of my life started to show cracks, and my relationships. I was living three thousand miles away from my parents. I was noticing for the first time in my life that they were slowing down, getting older, but we were three thousand miles away. My wife and I were struggling to conceive at the time. Now was creating strain in our relationship. I was drinking six seven nights a week, and it all coincided with a point in time in my life where from the outside looking in, you would have said I was winning the game, and I started to have this sensation that if that was what winning, felt like I had to be playing the wrong game.

You described this pivotal moment in your book, when you're roughly thirty years old and you have I think it's coffee with a friend. Is that right?

You described this pivotal moment in your book, when you're roughly thirty years old and you have I think it's coffee with a friend. Is that right?

Oh? Yeah, Toraink.

Oh? Yeah, Toraink.

Unfortunately you had a drink seven nights a week of drinking.

Unfortunately you had a drink seven nights a week of drinking.

You had a drink with a friend and they say something to you that just stops you in your tracks. Walk me through that story.

You had a drink with a friend and they say something to you that just stops you in your tracks. Walk me through that story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I went out for a drink with this old friend who I hadn't seen in a while, and we sat down and he asked how I was doing, and I told him that it started to get difficult living so far away from parents that I had started to notice they were slowing down. And he asked how old they were, and I said mid sixties. And he asked how often I saw them, and I said once a year at this point, and he just looked at me and said, okay, so you're going to see your parents fifteen more times before they die. And I just remember feeling like I had been punched in the gut. Even now, it sort of gives me chills remembering it. But the idea that the amount of time you have left with the people you care about most in the world is that finite and countable that you can place it onto a few hands, that just shook me to the core. And in that moment, I realized that my entire definition of success, of what it meant to build a wealthy life, of this path that I was on, had been incomplete, that I was prioritizing one thing at the expense of everything else. And in that moment, I realized that if we didn't make a change, if something didn't change fundamentally, that we were going to end up somewhere where we didn't want to be.

I went out for a drink with this old friend who I hadn't seen in a while, and we sat down and he asked how I was doing, and I told him that it started to get difficult living so far away from parents that I had started to notice they were slowing down. And he asked how old they were, and I said mid sixties. And he asked how often I saw them, and I said once a year at this point, and he just looked at me and said, okay, so you're going to see your parents fifteen more times before they die. And I just remember feeling like I had been punched in the gut. Even now, it sort of gives me chills remembering it. But the idea that the amount of time you have left with the people you care about most in the world is that finite and countable that you can place it onto a few hands, that just shook me to the core. And in that moment, I realized that my entire definition of success, of what it meant to build a wealthy life, of this path that I was on, had been incomplete, that I was prioritizing one thing at the expense of everything else. And in that moment, I realized that if we didn't make a change, if something didn't change fundamentally, that we were going to end up somewhere where we didn't want to be.

And so we did.

And so we did.

My wife and I had a candid conversation the next day about what we really viewed as our center in life, what we wanted to build our life around, what our true north really was, and we made a change. Within forty five days, I had left my job, we had sold our house in California, and we had moved three thousand miles across the country to live closer to both of our sets of parents. And in that one decision, was a very important realization, which is just that you are in much more control of your time than you think. I see my parents multiple times a month. They're a huge part of my son, their grandson's life. We had taken an action and actually created and that was the spark that really changed everything.

My wife and I had a candid conversation the next day about what we really viewed as our center in life, what we wanted to build our life around, what our true north really was, and we made a change. Within forty five days, I had left my job, we had sold our house in California, and we had moved three thousand miles across the country to live closer to both of our sets of parents. And in that one decision, was a very important realization, which is just that you are in much more control of your time than you think. I see my parents multiple times a month. They're a huge part of my son, their grandson's life. We had taken an action and actually created and that was the spark that really changed everything.

I'm so curious about this conversation with your wife right So for people who are listening right now thinking Ooh, I need to do one of these reflection sessions with myself and with my partner to really question assumptions. What kinds of questions were you asking each other?

I'm so curious about this conversation with your wife right So for people who are listening right now thinking Ooh, I need to do one of these reflection sessions with myself and with my partner to really question assumptions. What kinds of questions were you asking each other?

The first thing I would just say was thinking about what we wanted the end to look like, like what is the end goal? What is the end that I'm trying to create? And for both my wife and I, it had very little to do with money, you know. It was being on like a porch with each other, with kids that want to spend time with us, with grandkids in the yard, with friends coming over for dinner. It was like, Okay, both of us have just laid out an entire scenario that has people at the center of it. It has relationships, especially our core closest relationships, and yet.

The first thing I would just say was thinking about what we wanted the end to look like, like what is the end goal? What is the end that I'm trying to create? And for both my wife and I, it had very little to do with money, you know. It was being on like a porch with each other, with kids that want to spend time with us, with grandkids in the yard, with friends coming over for dinner. It was like, Okay, both of us have just laid out an entire scenario that has people at the center of it. It has relationships, especially our core closest relationships, and yet.

On a daily basis, what are your prioritiyizing right now?

On a daily basis, what are your prioritiyizing right now?

We live in California where we don't really have any connection, Like we don't have close friends that live here, and we're living three thousand miles away from the people that we're closest to, And that was just extremely illuminating. You're like, I just shined a light on the fact that my values, the things that I really am saying really matter to me, Yeah, are very different from what my actions are showing those values to be. And that gap is sort of the fundamental gap that we should all be trying to close in life.

We live in California where we don't really have any connection, Like we don't have close friends that live here, and we're living three thousand miles away from the people that we're closest to, And that was just extremely illuminating. You're like, I just shined a light on the fact that my values, the things that I really am saying really matter to me, Yeah, are very different from what my actions are showing those values to be. And that gap is sort of the fundamental gap that we should all be trying to close in life.

It's like the difference.

It's like the difference.

Between what you say your priorities are and what your actions show your priorities are. When you close that gap, your life improves, But you need to highlight the gap before you can close it.

Between what you say your priorities are and what your actions show your priorities are. When you close that gap, your life improves, But you need to highlight the gap before you can close it.

We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. Once saw Hil realized he needed to make major changes to live out his values, he and his wife packed up their bags and moved across the country to be closer to family. He also quit his demanding job and started to write more, and he got curious about what it means to live a good life. He started asking people what advice they give their younger selves, and from these conversations he came up with the idea that there are five buckets of wealth.

We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. Once saw Hil realized he needed to make major changes to live out his values, he and his wife packed up their bags and moved across the country to be closer to family. He also quit his demanding job and started to write more, and he got curious about what it means to live a good life. He started asking people what advice they give their younger selves, and from these conversations he came up with the idea that there are five buckets of wealth.

The five types of wealth are time wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, physical wealth, and then financial wealth. Time wealth is fundamentally about freedom to choose how you spend your time, who you spend it with, where you spend it, when you trade it for other things. It is about an awareness of time as your most precious asset.

The five types of wealth are time wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, physical wealth, and then financial wealth. Time wealth is fundamentally about freedom to choose how you spend your time, who you spend it with, where you spend it, when you trade it for other things. It is about an awareness of time as your most precious asset.

What are some strategies that you've found helpful when it comes to protecting your time, but then also feeling just more agency over your time.

What are some strategies that you've found helpful when it comes to protecting your time, but then also feeling just more agency over your time.

Your outcomes in life tend to follow your energy. Very few people are actually aware of their energy in a meaningful way, meaning understand the types of activities and the types of people in their life that create energy versus drain energy. When you spend time and lean into things that are creating energy for you, your outcomes will improve. And when you lean away from and remove things that are draining energy, Similarly, your life and your outcomes in the way that you feel on a weekly basis improves. The fastest way to develop an awareness of that is to just use your calendar. I mean, if you look at your calendar at the end of a weekday and color code the activities according to whether they created energy, meaning you felt sort of a natural pull or interest or excitement around the thing that's green, if it was neutral, market yellow, and if it left you feeling physically drained market red. If you do that for a week, you'll have a very clear visual perspective on the types of active vites that create versus energy from your life. That information allows you to make slow, incremental changes to your weeks that will improve the overall outlook and outcomes in your life, like removing certain things that you previously said yes to that we're actually draining your energy that you can remove, removing people from your life that consistently drain your energy and are not adding a.

Your outcomes in life tend to follow your energy. Very few people are actually aware of their energy in a meaningful way, meaning understand the types of activities and the types of people in their life that create energy versus drain energy. When you spend time and lean into things that are creating energy for you, your outcomes will improve. And when you lean away from and remove things that are draining energy, Similarly, your life and your outcomes in the way that you feel on a weekly basis improves. The fastest way to develop an awareness of that is to just use your calendar. I mean, if you look at your calendar at the end of a weekday and color code the activities according to whether they created energy, meaning you felt sort of a natural pull or interest or excitement around the thing that's green, if it was neutral, market yellow, and if it left you feeling physically drained market red. If you do that for a week, you'll have a very clear visual perspective on the types of active vites that create versus energy from your life. That information allows you to make slow, incremental changes to your weeks that will improve the overall outlook and outcomes in your life, like removing certain things that you previously said yes to that we're actually draining your energy that you can remove, removing people from your life that consistently drain your energy and are not adding a.

Whole lot of value.

Whole lot of value.

A piece of that is this idea of just saying no more effectively.

A piece of that is this idea of just saying no more effectively.

Yeah, terrible at this.

Yeah, terrible at this.

We all sort of know that it's important to know when to say no, but very few people have good framings for how to actually do that. I offer two in the book that I have found personally very useful.

We all sort of know that it's important to know when to say no, but very few people have good framings for how to actually do that. I offer two in the book that I have found personally very useful.

One is this idea of the right now test.

One is this idea of the right now test.

Oh yes, I love this one.

Oh yes, I love this one.

If someone asks you to do something, whether personal or professional, two months from now, ask yourself whether you would want to do it if it was tonight or if it was right now. If the answer is yes, you say yes to it, because then in two months you'll still want to do it. But if the answer is no, and you're just saying yes to it because two months seems like so far in the future, Like sure, I'll have more time than two months in the future future, maya will have way more time, you should.

If someone asks you to do something, whether personal or professional, two months from now, ask yourself whether you would want to do it if it was tonight or if it was right now. If the answer is yes, you say yes to it, because then in two months you'll still want to do it. But if the answer is no, and you're just saying yes to it because two months seems like so far in the future, Like sure, I'll have more time than two months in the future future, maya will have way more time, you should.

Just say no to it.

Just say no to it.

Yeah, it's a failure of empathy with your future self. Yeah, absolutely, Okay, can we talk now, sihil about social wealth? So how do you define it? And what are ways that we can try to boost the amount of social wealth that we derive in our lives.

Yeah, it's a failure of empathy with your future self. Yeah, absolutely, Okay, can we talk now, sihil about social wealth? So how do you define it? And what are ways that we can try to boost the amount of social wealth that we derive in our lives.

Social wealth is all about your relationships. It's the you know, it's the few close, deep bonds, and then it's the larger circles of connection to things that sort of extend beyond the self, whether through communities, local, regional, spiritual, et cetera. I love this visualization that I propose in the book of Imagining your Own Funeral and thinking about the people that are going to be sitting in the front row, And the most important part of that visualization is actually not identifying those people. It's about recognizing the traits and the experience that those people create for you, and then reminding yourself that the most important thing is to be a front row person to someone else. Everyone always asks like, how do I build deep, loving bonds? How do I find those people that you know I can call at three in the morning when things are bad. The most clear obvious answer is be one of those people to someone else.

Social wealth is all about your relationships. It's the you know, it's the few close, deep bonds, and then it's the larger circles of connection to things that sort of extend beyond the self, whether through communities, local, regional, spiritual, et cetera. I love this visualization that I propose in the book of Imagining your Own Funeral and thinking about the people that are going to be sitting in the front row, And the most important part of that visualization is actually not identifying those people. It's about recognizing the traits and the experience that those people create for you, and then reminding yourself that the most important thing is to be a front row person to someone else. Everyone always asks like, how do I build deep, loving bonds? How do I find those people that you know I can call at three in the morning when things are bad. The most clear obvious answer is be one of those people to someone else.

We attract in life what we put out into the world.

We attract in life what we put out into the world.

Yeah, and I mean there's also the now famous Harvard study, Robert Weldinger study about how our social relationships are the greatest predictor of long term well being and physical health.

Yeah, and I mean there's also the now famous Harvard study, Robert Weldinger study about how our social relationships are the greatest predictor of long term well being and physical health.

The most interesting finding of that study was that the single greatest predictor of physical health at age eighty was relationship satisfaction at age fifty. I think it's the most impactful study of the last one hundred years.

The most interesting finding of that study was that the single greatest predictor of physical health at age eighty was relationship satisfaction at age fifty. I think it's the most impactful study of the last one hundred years.

Yeah, well, you mentioned already one of the best ways to boost our physical health, which is to invest in our social relationships. Tell me how you think about physical wealth and just a few strategies you might share.

Yeah, well, you mentioned already one of the best ways to boost our physical health, which is to invest in our social relationships. Tell me how you think about physical wealth and just a few strategies you might share.

That's basically three pillars. Move your body for thirty minutes a day any type of movement walk, run, jog, bike, row, dance, whatever you like doing. Move your body for thirty minutes a day, eat whole unprocessed foods eighty percent of meals, and then try to sleep seven hours a night.

That's basically three pillars. Move your body for thirty minutes a day any type of movement walk, run, jog, bike, row, dance, whatever you like doing. Move your body for thirty minutes a day, eat whole unprocessed foods eighty percent of meals, and then try to sleep seven hours a night.

What about mental wealth?

What about mental wealth?

Mental wealth is about purpose, It's about growth, and more than anything else, it is about creating the space necessary to wrestle with some of these bigger picture, sort of unanswerable questions of life. I really think about mental wealth as being about carving your own path and pursuing your curiosity enough such that you can unlock whatever that is.

Mental wealth is about purpose, It's about growth, and more than anything else, it is about creating the space necessary to wrestle with some of these bigger picture, sort of unanswerable questions of life. I really think about mental wealth as being about carving your own path and pursuing your curiosity enough such that you can unlock whatever that is.

A lot of these techniques do become more accessible when our financial needs are met, and there is a profound amount of financial anxiety in this moment, for session, fears, layoffs, inflation. What advice would you say to someone who is really eager to think bigger than money, just see things more expansively, but they feel like they are stuck in survival mode. Can they still take some of the advice from your book?

A lot of these techniques do become more accessible when our financial needs are met, and there is a profound amount of financial anxiety in this moment, for session, fears, layoffs, inflation. What advice would you say to someone who is really eager to think bigger than money, just see things more expansively, but they feel like they are stuck in survival mode. Can they still take some of the advice from your book?

Yes?

Yes?

I would say a lot of this does reflect Maslow's hierarchy of needs to say that until you achieve these basic needs of food, shelter, you know, basic pleasures, money directly buys happiness. Beyond that, you start wanting to think about money as a tool to build and accumulate these other things. What I would say is that some tiny daily investment in these other areas of life will pay dividends for you. Doing the like tiny daily action is better than doing nothing, and it prevents atrophy in all of these areas. So even if you do not have the luxury or the privilege of investment thing meaningfully into your physical wealth or into finding a purpose, you can still do the tiny daily action. Anyone can find five minutes to just go for a walk around the block before going to bed to clear their head, or doing the like two minute journaling thing before going to bed to get some stressful thing off your brain to help you sleep a little bit more clearly at night. Anything above zero compounds in all of these areas of life. But we don't think that way. We think that something needs to be optimal in order for it to be beneficial, when the reality is that the tiny thing done well on a daily basis will stack and compound positively in your life.

I would say a lot of this does reflect Maslow's hierarchy of needs to say that until you achieve these basic needs of food, shelter, you know, basic pleasures, money directly buys happiness. Beyond that, you start wanting to think about money as a tool to build and accumulate these other things. What I would say is that some tiny daily investment in these other areas of life will pay dividends for you. Doing the like tiny daily action is better than doing nothing, and it prevents atrophy in all of these areas. So even if you do not have the luxury or the privilege of investment thing meaningfully into your physical wealth or into finding a purpose, you can still do the tiny daily action. Anyone can find five minutes to just go for a walk around the block before going to bed to clear their head, or doing the like two minute journaling thing before going to bed to get some stressful thing off your brain to help you sleep a little bit more clearly at night. Anything above zero compounds in all of these areas of life. But we don't think that way. We think that something needs to be optimal in order for it to be beneficial, when the reality is that the tiny thing done well on a daily basis will stack and compound positively in your life.

Yeah, how do you personally think about navigating the trade offs between these types of wealth. So obviously there are costs, right if you are prioritizing your mental wealth, it might come at the expense of other buckets. And if you're moving to be closer a family, it might also strain your career options or your finances.

Yeah, how do you personally think about navigating the trade offs between these types of wealth. So obviously there are costs, right if you are prioritizing your mental wealth, it might come at the expense of other buckets. And if you're moving to be closer a family, it might also strain your career options or your finances.

I really think about life coming in seasons, and these trade offs are fundamentally about what sort of dimmer switch you want to turn up versus down during different seasons of life. The traditional wisdom has always been that these things exist on on off switches, and that is what I fundamentally push back on. And so the idea to me is that you have these dimmer switches in front of you, and what you are going to have way turned up at any point in time is going to change. In your early years twenties, thirties, forties, you might be really focusing on building that financial stability and financial foundation. So that area is turned up. That doesn't mean the other areas are turned off. It might just mean they're turned down low. Maybe low means the five minute walk every day. Maybe low means the two minutes of journaling for the headspace that you get. Maybe low means the one phone call to your family each week.

I really think about life coming in seasons, and these trade offs are fundamentally about what sort of dimmer switch you want to turn up versus down during different seasons of life. The traditional wisdom has always been that these things exist on on off switches, and that is what I fundamentally push back on. And so the idea to me is that you have these dimmer switches in front of you, and what you are going to have way turned up at any point in time is going to change. In your early years twenties, thirties, forties, you might be really focusing on building that financial stability and financial foundation. So that area is turned up. That doesn't mean the other areas are turned off. It might just mean they're turned down low. Maybe low means the five minute walk every day. Maybe low means the two minutes of journaling for the headspace that you get. Maybe low means the one phone call to your family each week.

Whatever it is down low, but it's not off.

Whatever it is down low, but it's not off.

At a different season of life, what you are choosing to have turned up or you know or to the middle is going to change, and you are not tethered to what your prior season was, and you don't have to stress about what your future season might look like. You can just embrace whatever does exist in the present season.

At a different season of life, what you are choosing to have turned up or you know or to the middle is going to change, and you are not tethered to what your prior season was, and you don't have to stress about what your future season might look like. You can just embrace whatever does exist in the present season.

Yeah. One of my favorite parts of your book is that you talk about the fact that balance is not achieved on a daily level. It's achieved at a macro level. When you zoom out and you say, look at a year or many years in the aggregate, that's when you see the balance reflected back to you.

Yeah. One of my favorite parts of your book is that you talk about the fact that balance is not achieved on a daily level. It's achieved at a macro level. When you zoom out and you say, look at a year or many years in the aggregate, that's when you see the balance reflected back to you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that idea of like being able to just lean into the unbalanced when it comes. As long as you have a broader macro awareness of the desire to create the balance in the future can be really powerful.

I love that idea of like being able to just lean into the unbalanced when it comes. As long as you have a broader macro awareness of the desire to create the balance in the future can be really powerful.

What's the most difficult change that you've had to make since shifting how you define wealth.

What's the most difficult change that you've had to make since shifting how you define wealth.

I think the biggest and most challenging change is that your definition no longer aligns with the world around you's definition, and when you live differently, and when you embrace different things, and when your scoreboard is different the way that you kind of value and think about the world, all of a sudden, it's very clear to you that it's in conflict with how other people do. You're no longer playing like similar games to other people, and so your ability to have and carry on conversations with a lot of people sort of just goes away. You know, I've had like a lot of friends who I thought of as real friends that it no longer feels like I speak the same language as them in a lot of ways. And that's challenging just in the context of relationships.

I think the biggest and most challenging change is that your definition no longer aligns with the world around you's definition, and when you live differently, and when you embrace different things, and when your scoreboard is different the way that you kind of value and think about the world, all of a sudden, it's very clear to you that it's in conflict with how other people do. You're no longer playing like similar games to other people, and so your ability to have and carry on conversations with a lot of people sort of just goes away. You know, I've had like a lot of friends who I thought of as real friends that it no longer feels like I speak the same language as them in a lot of ways. And that's challenging just in the context of relationships.

Sure, sure, But has it also brought you closer to other people that share those values.

Sure, sure, But has it also brought you closer to other people that share those values.

It's brought me closer to the people that I hold dear. I would say that it has like narrowed and focused my people around the real people that I want to be on these few missions with in life.

It's brought me closer to the people that I hold dear. I would say that it has like narrowed and focused my people around the real people that I want to be on these few missions with in life.

So do you find, for example, that you're in an impast with friends who continue to focus a lot on financial wealth? Like where are you finding that disconnect?

So do you find, for example, that you're in an impast with friends who continue to focus a lot on financial wealth? Like where are you finding that disconnect?

Yeah? I wouldn't say an impasse.

Yeah? I wouldn't say an impasse.

I would just say almost like a you know, an indifference, Like you know that we no longer have in common the things that previously maybe bonded us around, like thinking about and talking about money and fancy things and status and like the club memberships. All the things that we previously used to have a shared language and communication around it no longer exists. And so you realize, you know at times that like some of the things that bonded you together, it wasn't like maybe real deep connections. It was these surface level things that once you change those, it no longer is there. The point, the meta point of the whole book is that you get to choose what races you wrut. You get to choose, and you don't need to live by default into someone else's.

I would just say almost like a you know, an indifference, Like you know that we no longer have in common the things that previously maybe bonded us around, like thinking about and talking about money and fancy things and status and like the club memberships. All the things that we previously used to have a shared language and communication around it no longer exists. And so you realize, you know at times that like some of the things that bonded you together, it wasn't like maybe real deep connections. It was these surface level things that once you change those, it no longer is there. The point, the meta point of the whole book is that you get to choose what races you wrut. You get to choose, and you don't need to live by default into someone else's.

Yeah, And I mean, I think this aligns so closely with how we can buttress ourselves against the dynamic force of change in our lives and what can stabilize us. And I think the premise of your book, which is to question our value systems and to essentially put more weight into these other buckets of wealth over the course of our lives, to diversify those investments, does actually build our resilience in the face of change, because life will throw these curveballs our way, and we may stop having to play baseball at one moment, or we may face a financial crisis at another moment. There's a safety net when you do have these investments in many places and you allow it to be a dynamic space that is shifting in real time. Like I think, another thing that's really important for listeners to understand is you're not proposing you figure out your pyramid and then it's fixed and locked for life. It's like an ongoing dialogue with yourself and your loved ones to figure out where you want to make those investments at any given moment.

Yeah, And I mean, I think this aligns so closely with how we can buttress ourselves against the dynamic force of change in our lives and what can stabilize us. And I think the premise of your book, which is to question our value systems and to essentially put more weight into these other buckets of wealth over the course of our lives, to diversify those investments, does actually build our resilience in the face of change, because life will throw these curveballs our way, and we may stop having to play baseball at one moment, or we may face a financial crisis at another moment. There's a safety net when you do have these investments in many places and you allow it to be a dynamic space that is shifting in real time. Like I think, another thing that's really important for listeners to understand is you're not proposing you figure out your pyramid and then it's fixed and locked for life. It's like an ongoing dialogue with yourself and your loved ones to figure out where you want to make those investments at any given moment.

Exactly right.

Exactly right.

It is entirely dynamic, and you have the freedom to choose during any season of life to take actions to change where you are and what your priority is and what your life is being built around. And certainly there are going to be situations where you just have to lean into certain things because of responsibilities or because of life circumstances. But when you do find yourself with the luxury to choose, if you do, it is a responsibility to take advantage of that as well to do right by it.

It is entirely dynamic, and you have the freedom to choose during any season of life to take actions to change where you are and what your priority is and what your life is being built around. And certainly there are going to be situations where you just have to lean into certain things because of responsibilities or because of life circumstances. But when you do find yourself with the luxury to choose, if you do, it is a responsibility to take advantage of that as well to do right by it.

Yeah, I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, Okay, well, sy Hill's got it all figured out, because not only is he successful, but then he's also got this like deeper philosophical wealth pyramid thing figured out. What is an area of your life where you're currently struggling and maybe where you're finding it hard to apply some of these principles and tell me about how you're working through that challenge.

Yeah, I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, Okay, well, sy Hill's got it all figured out, because not only is he successful, but then he's also got this like deeper philosophical wealth pyramid thing figured out. What is an area of your life where you're currently struggling and maybe where you're finding it hard to apply some of these principles and tell me about how you're working through that challenge.

I would just say I have nothing figured out. I mean, I think I understand some of these things, but all of them are sort of notes to self that I am presently wrestling with and struggling through. I tend to think that in life, your best bet or your best hope is that you just kind of stumble a little bit better each day. You never like FULLI er on your feet and feeling great and that you have it figured out. I have found personally, whenever I think I had it figured out, I'm about to get punched in the face. And so I really like to think about just like stumbling a little bit better, you know, for me personally, Like in the aftermath of the book release and the impact that it's had, I have really wrestled with like finding this balance around especially time and social wealth of this wealth of new opportunities that feels like it should be a good thing. But that has really meaningfully negatively impacted my life in a lot of ways because I've gone and like taken on too much chase too many things that have spread me thin. The quality of everything deteriorates. When you do that, it pulls me away from my family. My wife had to have you know, we had to have a sit down and talk about, like this spring and summer, you need to like reset more time. My son is three years old. It's gonna be an amazing summer. And that is that was really a struggle. It sort of this like natural push and pull that happens with these inflection points in life.

I would just say I have nothing figured out. I mean, I think I understand some of these things, but all of them are sort of notes to self that I am presently wrestling with and struggling through. I tend to think that in life, your best bet or your best hope is that you just kind of stumble a little bit better each day. You never like FULLI er on your feet and feeling great and that you have it figured out. I have found personally, whenever I think I had it figured out, I'm about to get punched in the face. And so I really like to think about just like stumbling a little bit better, you know, for me personally, Like in the aftermath of the book release and the impact that it's had, I have really wrestled with like finding this balance around especially time and social wealth of this wealth of new opportunities that feels like it should be a good thing. But that has really meaningfully negatively impacted my life in a lot of ways because I've gone and like taken on too much chase too many things that have spread me thin. The quality of everything deteriorates. When you do that, it pulls me away from my family. My wife had to have you know, we had to have a sit down and talk about, like this spring and summer, you need to like reset more time. My son is three years old. It's gonna be an amazing summer. And that is that was really a struggle. It sort of this like natural push and pull that happens with these inflection points in life.

Hey, thanks so much for listening. I've written a newsletter post inspired by my conversation with Saalhill. It's all about how we can better invest in our friendships. You can subscribe to this free newsletter at Changewithmaya dot com and next week join me when I talk to psychiatrist Judith Joseph, who learns to feel joy again.

Hey, thanks so much for listening. I've written a newsletter post inspired by my conversation with Saalhill. It's all about how we can better invest in our friendships. You can subscribe to this free newsletter at Changewithmaya dot com and next week join me when I talk to psychiatrist Judith Joseph, who learns to feel joy again.

We were built with the DNA for joy.

We were built with the DNA for joy.

We're supposed to derive pleasure from the basic things in life. If you're not deriving pleasure from those things that is a problem That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. See you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Britney Cronin and Megan Leeuvin and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.

We're supposed to derive pleasure from the basic things in life. If you're not deriving pleasure from those things that is a problem That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. See you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Britney Cronin and Megan Leeuvin and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.