Stephen Bartlett has a unique ability to get people to open up and talk about things they probably haven't talked about in public before. I should know. He did it to me, so I invited him on to a bit of Optimism to see if I could get him to do the same. He's quite remarkable. He started building companies when he was just eighteen and took himself from being a broke university dropout to a millionaire by the age of twenty three and one of Britain's most influential entrepreneurs. He's been one of the regulars on dragons Den, the British equivalent of Shark Tank, and most importantly, he's become a voice for the modern entrepreneur. In part one of our two part conversation, Stephen proves himself to be vulnerable, introspective and curious not just about how he achieves, but why he feels the need to achieve in the place. This is a bit of optimism. So the best part about sitting down to do a podcast with you is that you are never on the receiving end of these things. And you have made quite a career out of getting people to say all the things they don't want to say, and now here you are in the receiving end.

Stephen Bartlett has a unique ability to get people to open up and talk about things they probably haven't talked about in public before. I should know. He did it to me, so I invited him on to a bit of Optimism to see if I could get him to do the same. He's quite remarkable. He started building companies when he was just eighteen and took himself from being a broke university dropout to a millionaire by the age of twenty three and one of Britain's most influential entrepreneurs. He's been one of the regulars on dragons Den, the British equivalent of Shark Tank, and most importantly, he's become a voice for the modern entrepreneur. In part one of our two part conversation, Stephen proves himself to be vulnerable, introspective and curious not just about how he achieves, but why he feels the need to achieve in the place. This is a bit of optimism. So the best part about sitting down to do a podcast with you is that you are never on the receiving end of these things. And you have made quite a career out of getting people to say all the things they don't want to say, and now here you are in the receiving end.

Yeah, it's terrifying.

Yeah, it's terrifying.

Now you know how we feel. I'm not going to start with Who's how nice I am? I'm not going to start with I'm going to ask you a question most people lie about the answer, and I want you to be honest.

Now you know how we feel. I'm not going to start with Who's how nice I am? I'm not going to start with I'm going to ask you a question most people lie about the answer, and I want you to be honest.

How are you?

How are you?

I'm not going to start but how are you?

I'm not going to start but how are you?

How am I? I'm good? Interesting chapter of my life. It's an interesting chapter of my life. I think things feel more balanced than ever, if that makes sense. When I say balanced, I don't mean in any equal proportion. I just mean quantities that make me feel good. Right, And I feel like I'm in a bit of a boring phase of my life in an interesting way to find boring just this kind of straight, compounding phase of my life where nothing huge happens, but in fact everything is happening because it's boring. It's the same, it's showing up every day, it's disciplined.

How am I? I'm good? Interesting chapter of my life. It's an interesting chapter of my life. I think things feel more balanced than ever, if that makes sense. When I say balanced, I don't mean in any equal proportion. I just mean quantities that make me feel good. Right, And I feel like I'm in a bit of a boring phase of my life in an interesting way to find boring just this kind of straight, compounding phase of my life where nothing huge happens, but in fact everything is happening because it's boring. It's the same, it's showing up every day, it's disciplined.

Boring mean routine or does boring mean you're bored?

Boring mean routine or does boring mean you're bored?

It means there's not a huge variance in the amount of experiences, but it's intentional.

It means there's not a huge variance in the amount of experiences, but it's intentional.

So it's maintenance.

So it's maintenance.

Yeah, focus focused.

Yeah, focus focused.

That is counter to your personality. And what I mean by that is you are sort of an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. You you know, dropped out of school, went into business by yourself, sort of lived the entrepreneurial life. And entrepreneurs their mentality, the creativity, the excitement, the joy doesn't suit maintenance, which is why entrepreneurial minded folks struggle in a corporate environment. So does that mean you're changing? Does that mean that you're in a position of no creativity, you're not feeling challenged? Like so what bored is a very interesting choice of words.

That is counter to your personality. And what I mean by that is you are sort of an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. You you know, dropped out of school, went into business by yourself, sort of lived the entrepreneurial life. And entrepreneurs their mentality, the creativity, the excitement, the joy doesn't suit maintenance, which is why entrepreneurial minded folks struggle in a corporate environment. So does that mean you're changing? Does that mean that you're in a position of no creativity, you're not feeling challenged? Like so what bored is a very interesting choice of words.

Yeah. So let me just take my podcasting business. It's about thirty people. It's called the diver CEO. And everything is going up into the right. So this month is our highest downoards ever. We're going to do about thirty five million downloads this month, four hundred thousand new subscribers on YouTube this month Spotify. Everything's going up into the right. And I know that it's in those moments because I know this from i'd say two and a half decades of observational analysis of my mother, of successful people, of Joe Rogan, of all the people that were big and then fell off. I know that it's in those moments when temptation to lose focused is the highest. So it's in those moments when everything is going great that you need to have this kind of boring patience with the process. And it's this slow, iterative, one percent finding of marginal gains that feels boring because I'm not accepting huge new opportunities that might divert my focus. I'm doing, in fact, what I think Joe Rogan did so well, which was do the same thing for fifteen years and don't allow yourself to be swayed by temptation, which is, as I said, optimal when things are going well.

Yeah. So let me just take my podcasting business. It's about thirty people. It's called the diver CEO. And everything is going up into the right. So this month is our highest downoards ever. We're going to do about thirty five million downloads this month, four hundred thousand new subscribers on YouTube this month Spotify. Everything's going up into the right. And I know that it's in those moments because I know this from i'd say two and a half decades of observational analysis of my mother, of successful people, of Joe Rogan, of all the people that were big and then fell off. I know that it's in those moments when temptation to lose focused is the highest. So it's in those moments when everything is going great that you need to have this kind of boring patience with the process. And it's this slow, iterative, one percent finding of marginal gains that feels boring because I'm not accepting huge new opportunities that might divert my focus. I'm doing, in fact, what I think Joe Rogan did so well, which was do the same thing for fifteen years and don't allow yourself to be swayed by temptation, which is, as I said, optimal when things are going well.

Give me an example of a person or an organization that you believe gave into temptation.

Give me an example of a person or an organization that you believe gave into temptation.

The biggest YouTuber in our country in the UK, had let me say, three million subscribers. He was the king of YouTube. He was the king of in depth conversations, he was the king of the algorithms, etc. He got so big that he got so many opportunities. He got an opportunity to start a fighting channel, he got the opportunity to start a gaming channel, a football channel, a second football channel, the gambling channel. He took those opportunities. He got an opportunity to move to another platform called Twitch. He took the opportunity. He lost focus. You slowly saw this descending of his ability to reach people his message. He lost sight of also his authenticity and would take opportunities based on their lucrativeness, not the residents that I had with him and his audience. And I just watched him go from being the king to being now completely you know, texting me the other day and asking me for alone because he's his whole team have left him. And I diagnosed that moment against someone like a Joe Rogan, who doesn't get credit for really the consistency and staying power and a go. It was in the moment when temptation was highest that he should have made the toughest decision, which was to focus. I talk about that a little bit in my book, These moments in my life where I had such high temptation to lose focus. Or my mother, who I watched start twenty five businesses between the age of my age of ten and twenty, and I watched how she was never successful because whenever something showed any sign of success or failure, she would be swayed by a narrative that there's greener grass elsewhere, and watching your mother. Like our family, we were virtually bankrupt for my entire childhood, no birthdays, no Christmases, no driving licenses, living in a derelict house, purely because of my mother's lack of focus. Even the one business she started, which is this restaurant that went remotely well, she was immediately swayed by someone down the street telling her that and a state agent's business was better. And then I watched the restaurant crumble as she tried to give fifty percent to two things when both of her competitors in those industries are giving one hundred and ten percent to wea. So when I said boring at the start of this, I'm honoring the fact that I know focus and focusing on consistency and compounding and doing more of the same stuff is in fact the path to the top. There's this really interesting boring section in the middle of it, when you've got to just say no a lot. And they always say, you know, when you're successful and things aren't going well, so yes, And when you're really successful and things are going well, say no. I'm saying no to everything, and it can feel a bit boring.

The biggest YouTuber in our country in the UK, had let me say, three million subscribers. He was the king of YouTube. He was the king of in depth conversations, he was the king of the algorithms, etc. He got so big that he got so many opportunities. He got an opportunity to start a fighting channel, he got the opportunity to start a gaming channel, a football channel, a second football channel, the gambling channel. He took those opportunities. He got an opportunity to move to another platform called Twitch. He took the opportunity. He lost focus. You slowly saw this descending of his ability to reach people his message. He lost sight of also his authenticity and would take opportunities based on their lucrativeness, not the residents that I had with him and his audience. And I just watched him go from being the king to being now completely you know, texting me the other day and asking me for alone because he's his whole team have left him. And I diagnosed that moment against someone like a Joe Rogan, who doesn't get credit for really the consistency and staying power and a go. It was in the moment when temptation was highest that he should have made the toughest decision, which was to focus. I talk about that a little bit in my book, These moments in my life where I had such high temptation to lose focus. Or my mother, who I watched start twenty five businesses between the age of my age of ten and twenty, and I watched how she was never successful because whenever something showed any sign of success or failure, she would be swayed by a narrative that there's greener grass elsewhere, and watching your mother. Like our family, we were virtually bankrupt for my entire childhood, no birthdays, no Christmases, no driving licenses, living in a derelict house, purely because of my mother's lack of focus. Even the one business she started, which is this restaurant that went remotely well, she was immediately swayed by someone down the street telling her that and a state agent's business was better. And then I watched the restaurant crumble as she tried to give fifty percent to two things when both of her competitors in those industries are giving one hundred and ten percent to wea. So when I said boring at the start of this, I'm honoring the fact that I know focus and focusing on consistency and compounding and doing more of the same stuff is in fact the path to the top. There's this really interesting boring section in the middle of it, when you've got to just say no a lot. And they always say, you know, when you're successful and things aren't going well, so yes, And when you're really successful and things are going well, say no. I'm saying no to everything, and it can feel a bit boring.

I guess what you're describing in the example of the British podcaster is selling out right, which is you've achieved a level of notoriety or you have a number of followers that is now appealing to other companies and advertisers, etc. And you say they dangle money in front of you.

I guess what you're describing in the example of the British podcaster is selling out right, which is you've achieved a level of notoriety or you have a number of followers that is now appealing to other companies and advertisers, etc. And you say they dangle money in front of you.

It's the focus, the selling of the focus that I think is that the worst thing, you know. Charlie Munger, one of the greatest investors of all times, says never interrupt compounding interest unless you absolutely have to, Like, that's one of the great rules of investing. Never interrupt the process when something is compounding. And he interrupted the process by shifting his focus. Yeah, and that's the chapter of my life am in. And it's difficult to speak to teams. In fact, you'll work on thinking about infinite games. And finite games really helped me because you've then got to build a system that is built for a long chapter of your life. Yeah, You've got to build a company culture and you've got to energize your people and inspire them away in a way which is built for ten years, not ten months. And that's what I think a lot about, is how do I keep these people with me for the next decade, how do I keep their enthusiasm ap How do I keep them in a sustainable culture?

It's the focus, the selling of the focus that I think is that the worst thing, you know. Charlie Munger, one of the greatest investors of all times, says never interrupt compounding interest unless you absolutely have to, Like, that's one of the great rules of investing. Never interrupt the process when something is compounding. And he interrupted the process by shifting his focus. Yeah, and that's the chapter of my life am in. And it's difficult to speak to teams. In fact, you'll work on thinking about infinite games. And finite games really helped me because you've then got to build a system that is built for a long chapter of your life. Yeah, You've got to build a company culture and you've got to energize your people and inspire them away in a way which is built for ten years, not ten months. And that's what I think a lot about, is how do I keep these people with me for the next decade, how do I keep their enthusiasm ap How do I keep them in a sustainable culture?

Did you always know this? When did you learn this? When was the conversion to being finite driven? Hitting a number, hitting a score, If I get this amount of money, that'll make me happy, to now recognizing that boring is actually a strategy.

Did you always know this? When did you learn this? When was the conversion to being finite driven? Hitting a number, hitting a score, If I get this amount of money, that'll make me happy, to now recognizing that boring is actually a strategy.

So it was reading your book, in fact, so reading about finite in Infinite Games changed my first business in a quite profound way, because I realized that we were aiming at things like becoming the best in our industry. We wanted to be number one, make the most revenue, or whatever. And I realized that there was both a lack of fulfillment that would come with achieving those goals, but also it wouldn't stand our company the best chance of succeeding over time because we were unsustainable. We were too intense, we were focused on short sighted goals, we had short sighted incentives. And then in two thousand and we're going to say two thousand and nineteen, I staid in front of my company and presented a new way forward, which I call www DOT, which was our world goals, which means outside of owls, our welfare goals which is the people inside of our walls, when our work goals, which is the work we do for the clients that we have, and these goals were all infinite in design, and just because of that, it meant that we were designing our company to go for multi decades. Motivation increased, staff attrition fell in terms of people quitting, our incentive structures changed, our client work changed, We took on different clients that could go with us over the long term, which were more lucrative, and that's kept with me ever since. So thank you.

So it was reading your book, in fact, so reading about finite in Infinite Games changed my first business in a quite profound way, because I realized that we were aiming at things like becoming the best in our industry. We wanted to be number one, make the most revenue, or whatever. And I realized that there was both a lack of fulfillment that would come with achieving those goals, but also it wouldn't stand our company the best chance of succeeding over time because we were unsustainable. We were too intense, we were focused on short sighted goals, we had short sighted incentives. And then in two thousand and we're going to say two thousand and nineteen, I staid in front of my company and presented a new way forward, which I call www DOT, which was our world goals, which means outside of owls, our welfare goals which is the people inside of our walls, when our work goals, which is the work we do for the clients that we have, and these goals were all infinite in design, and just because of that, it meant that we were designing our company to go for multi decades. Motivation increased, staff attrition fell in terms of people quitting, our incentive structures changed, our client work changed, We took on different clients that could go with us over the long term, which were more lucrative, and that's kept with me ever since. So thank you.

Oh I love that, and thanks for being an example of what an infinite mind of company looked like. So there's a detail in your own growth, in your own history as an entrepreneur that I find really interesting. Given analogy some people. I've had people come up to me and say, can you help me? Can you give me advice? I want to be a public speaker, and I say, well, what do you want to talk about? And they go, I haven't figured that out yet, and I sort off. You realize they've got it in the wrong order, which is you find yourself compelled by an idea and then you figure out a way to spread that message public speaking being one of them. So it was always weird to me that somebody says, I want to be a public speaker. I don't want to speak about And I think we see that very often in business owners, which is I want to make a lot of money. I want to be my own boss. I'm looking for a business I can start right, and money, very often is the driver. If I hit this number, I'll feel successful, be successful, whatever. And I'm very curious about your rise when you started your first business before you went public, What was the motivation, what was the drives? I mean, how old were you when you started that business?

Oh I love that, and thanks for being an example of what an infinite mind of company looked like. So there's a detail in your own growth, in your own history as an entrepreneur that I find really interesting. Given analogy some people. I've had people come up to me and say, can you help me? Can you give me advice? I want to be a public speaker, and I say, well, what do you want to talk about? And they go, I haven't figured that out yet, and I sort off. You realize they've got it in the wrong order, which is you find yourself compelled by an idea and then you figure out a way to spread that message public speaking being one of them. So it was always weird to me that somebody says, I want to be a public speaker. I don't want to speak about And I think we see that very often in business owners, which is I want to make a lot of money. I want to be my own boss. I'm looking for a business I can start right, and money, very often is the driver. If I hit this number, I'll feel successful, be successful, whatever. And I'm very curious about your rise when you started your first business before you went public, What was the motivation, what was the drives? I mean, how old were you when you started that business?

I was twenty one when I started that business. It was a pivot from a business that I started when I was eighteen, but yeah, twenty one, when when it was founded, when it was registered as a company.

I was twenty one when I started that business. It was a pivot from a business that I started when I was eighteen, but yeah, twenty one, when when it was founded, when it was registered as a company.

And what was the ambition? What was the drive.

And what was the ambition? What was the drive.

It's multifaceted, so there's a personal drive, which is to become rich, and that was very clear to me. I needed to become rich. Why because I was deeply insecure and riddled with shame and being the only pretty much any black kid in an all white area growing up. We were the weird family in my view. As I said, we lived in a derelict house, and values often decided by comparison. So you know, if you look at where I was getting my value from, You've got a perfect house next to ours, a perfect family on the other side of another perfect white family with lots of money next to ours. Then you have this direlict house with me and my black family inside of it, where the grass is six foot high. Everything about my contact, my environment told me that I was lower value. It told me that I wasn't enough. So the things that invalidate you when you're a kid often become the things you seek validation from as an adult. And for me, I was invalidated by a lack of money, by no romantic interests, by my family being quite bizarre, my mother being particularly interesting. And that's what I wanted. I wanted normally, so at eighteen years older, right in the front page of my diary that by the age of twenty eight, I'll make a million pounds, a ranger of a sport will be my first car, I'll get a six pack and a girlfriend. And that was my orientation and my north star in life. That was if I did all of these things, then I would be successful. And that's the path I set out to achieve. And by twenty three I had a range over sport was my first car. I had multiple millions in the bank account, I had a girlfriend, and I was working out, and you know, I didn't feel great to say the least.

It's multifaceted, so there's a personal drive, which is to become rich, and that was very clear to me. I needed to become rich. Why because I was deeply insecure and riddled with shame and being the only pretty much any black kid in an all white area growing up. We were the weird family in my view. As I said, we lived in a derelict house, and values often decided by comparison. So you know, if you look at where I was getting my value from, You've got a perfect house next to ours, a perfect family on the other side of another perfect white family with lots of money next to ours. Then you have this direlict house with me and my black family inside of it, where the grass is six foot high. Everything about my contact, my environment told me that I was lower value. It told me that I wasn't enough. So the things that invalidate you when you're a kid often become the things you seek validation from as an adult. And for me, I was invalidated by a lack of money, by no romantic interests, by my family being quite bizarre, my mother being particularly interesting. And that's what I wanted. I wanted normally, so at eighteen years older, right in the front page of my diary that by the age of twenty eight, I'll make a million pounds, a ranger of a sport will be my first car, I'll get a six pack and a girlfriend. And that was my orientation and my north star in life. That was if I did all of these things, then I would be successful. And that's the path I set out to achieve. And by twenty three I had a range over sport was my first car. I had multiple millions in the bank account, I had a girlfriend, and I was working out, and you know, I didn't feel great to say the least.

So twenty three years old is a pretty young age a to be a millionaire, but then to have achieved one's goals on paper, yeah, and not feel successful. So you achieved these things, and then what happened?

So twenty three years old is a pretty young age a to be a millionaire, but then to have achieved one's goals on paper, yeah, and not feel successful. So you achieved these things, and then what happened?

I realized that I've been lied to you by some kind of narrative. And when I say lied to I don't mean someone had lied to me. A narrative had lied to me at some point along the way, had told me that upon our company going public that morning, when I went over to my phone in the corner of the room, that a marching band might appear, and maybe all of those people that called me the N word or bullied me when I was a kid would appear and apologize and say how great I was or something. You know, I was confused about the nature of fulfillment and who I was and why I wanted what I was and I was riddled with fake ambitions. I think that's what I came to learn over the years, was that my ambitions were fake. They weren't ambition. They were in security. And there's a big distinction. And most of our lives are dragged by insecurity and shame. They're not driven by ambition. And it's a tragic truth that most of us are going to have to have our ambitions and our narratives fail us before we realize that their illusions and their mirages and they're false. It's something that I think a lot about. How do we get people to realize that these limiting beliefs and ideas that are driving their lives are illusions before they have to undergo the pain to realize that themselves. That chapter of my life, even a little bit earlier, when someone offered to buy our company for a very big eight figure number, me going home and going on rightmove dot com to look at the houses I could buy, then going on auto Trailer and look at the car that I could buy, and looking into the image on this screen and realizing that I would be somewhat emptier, I'd be somewhat poorer for buying these things, and I couldn't quite. It was an emptiness that I could feel inside of me. And then I met the guy that I wanted to become. I always think about this. I went and met the guy that I wanted to be friend of mine was still a friend to this day, billionaire seven Lamborghinis outside of his house. I slept in the Louis Vuitton room, which was just this big room surrounded by these bags. Spent time with him that night till five am, and he opened up to me and deeply, deeply, lonely asked me to sleep in bed with him that night. This is a thirty five year old man, one of the most miserable people at a fundamental level that I'd met, and that is who I was striving to become. So I had to go in search of something else, a new set of values to govern my life.

I realized that I've been lied to you by some kind of narrative. And when I say lied to I don't mean someone had lied to me. A narrative had lied to me at some point along the way, had told me that upon our company going public that morning, when I went over to my phone in the corner of the room, that a marching band might appear, and maybe all of those people that called me the N word or bullied me when I was a kid would appear and apologize and say how great I was or something. You know, I was confused about the nature of fulfillment and who I was and why I wanted what I was and I was riddled with fake ambitions. I think that's what I came to learn over the years, was that my ambitions were fake. They weren't ambition. They were in security. And there's a big distinction. And most of our lives are dragged by insecurity and shame. They're not driven by ambition. And it's a tragic truth that most of us are going to have to have our ambitions and our narratives fail us before we realize that their illusions and their mirages and they're false. It's something that I think a lot about. How do we get people to realize that these limiting beliefs and ideas that are driving their lives are illusions before they have to undergo the pain to realize that themselves. That chapter of my life, even a little bit earlier, when someone offered to buy our company for a very big eight figure number, me going home and going on rightmove dot com to look at the houses I could buy, then going on auto Trailer and look at the car that I could buy, and looking into the image on this screen and realizing that I would be somewhat emptier, I'd be somewhat poorer for buying these things, and I couldn't quite. It was an emptiness that I could feel inside of me. And then I met the guy that I wanted to become. I always think about this. I went and met the guy that I wanted to be friend of mine was still a friend to this day, billionaire seven Lamborghinis outside of his house. I slept in the Louis Vuitton room, which was just this big room surrounded by these bags. Spent time with him that night till five am, and he opened up to me and deeply, deeply, lonely asked me to sleep in bed with him that night. This is a thirty five year old man, one of the most miserable people at a fundamental level that I'd met, and that is who I was striving to become. So I had to go in search of something else, a new set of values to govern my life.

You described this as fake ambition. Yeah, so then what's real ambition? Because you did make the distinction. What's real ambition if this is the fake ambition?

You described this as fake ambition. Yeah, so then what's real ambition? Because you did make the distinction. What's real ambition if this is the fake ambition?

Yeah? So real ambition is driven bytrinsic desires and passions and interests. So you know, like I DJ now and I do this podcast, these are things that I would do irrespective of remuneration. They're attached to my like intrinsic motivation.

Yeah? So real ambition is driven bytrinsic desires and passions and interests. So you know, like I DJ now and I do this podcast, these are things that I would do irrespective of remuneration. They're attached to my like intrinsic motivation.

Things that you would do for free.

Things that you would do for free.

You might not do them for free unless you're fortunate enough to have surplus income, but they're the things that you know, yeah, you would choose to do if in a world where you didn't you didn't have to worry about money. So fake ambitions are driven by the pursuit of rewards and validation, Like I wanted a Lamborghini and I wanted to range over a sport even though I'm not interested in cars. Real ambitions sound like I want to go and play the violin in the Hills of Peru because I love the violin. It makes me feel great. And it's funny because I used to think that if I realized I was quote unquote enough, it would remove my ambition. A lot of people think this. I've had people like Gary Vaynerchuk and other people I've interviewed say that if they they're scared to go to therapy because because of what it might change in them, because of what it might remove, they think it will steal their ambition. It doesn't steal your ambition. It steals your fake ambitions, and it gives you enough space to focus on your real ones.

You might not do them for free unless you're fortunate enough to have surplus income, but they're the things that you know, yeah, you would choose to do if in a world where you didn't you didn't have to worry about money. So fake ambitions are driven by the pursuit of rewards and validation, Like I wanted a Lamborghini and I wanted to range over a sport even though I'm not interested in cars. Real ambitions sound like I want to go and play the violin in the Hills of Peru because I love the violin. It makes me feel great. And it's funny because I used to think that if I realized I was quote unquote enough, it would remove my ambition. A lot of people think this. I've had people like Gary Vaynerchuk and other people I've interviewed say that if they they're scared to go to therapy because because of what it might change in them, because of what it might remove, they think it will steal their ambition. It doesn't steal your ambition. It steals your fake ambitions, and it gives you enough space to focus on your real ones.

You've achieved a tremendous amount, and I think what I really enjoy about spending time with you is, for somebody so young, you have a tremendous amount of perspective and wisdom. I'm getting older now, and I sort of I'm now that person who I remember older people would say to me, but wait till you appreciate what the world is like when you're older, you know, And I'm like that person now looks back and be like, oh, I wish I knew that.

You've achieved a tremendous amount, and I think what I really enjoy about spending time with you is, for somebody so young, you have a tremendous amount of perspective and wisdom. I'm getting older now, and I sort of I'm now that person who I remember older people would say to me, but wait till you appreciate what the world is like when you're older, you know, And I'm like that person now looks back and be like, oh, I wish I knew that.

You know.

You know.

Do you have a sense of what you still have to learn at this age looking forwards? Or is that an unknown to you that you're going to have to trip over and you know, fall on your face to find out.

Do you have a sense of what you still have to learn at this age looking forwards? Or is that an unknown to you that you're going to have to trip over and you know, fall on your face to find out.

So outside of parenthood, which it's one of those things that I realize I'm not going to know anything about until it happens, I would say, romantic relationships, I still have a ton to learn there. I would say I'm still slightly confused and insecure as it relates to self worth. I do spend too much time obsessing over metrics, and I know that there's still a fundamental link between my self esteem and my self worth and these metrics and numbers, which is interesting. And I sat with someone who's who wrote the book about status or status. I don't know how you guys say it over here, And he says, we all play status status. Would you say, I'm going to say status, we all play status games. I was under the opinion that I'd stopped playing them. I'd sold all my fancy things. I didn't have designer stuff, so I assumed I'd stop playing status games in my life. And he made the case to me that your games just change when you don't have a lot of money. The logos are bigger when you become a billionaire's smaller logos, but bigger yachts. People with cameras they play. You know, if my cameraman walked in now, he'd start talking about the cameras in this room and try. We all have these different games we're playing, and I'm playing a different set of games now, and I don't want to be a slave to the game. I want to be conscious of the things that I'm doing and making sure that I don't find myself in a similar position where I'm trading happiness for my self worth. That's still an ongoing challenge I have, and then I have other challenges, like I have a lot to learn about emotional regulation.

So outside of parenthood, which it's one of those things that I realize I'm not going to know anything about until it happens, I would say, romantic relationships, I still have a ton to learn there. I would say I'm still slightly confused and insecure as it relates to self worth. I do spend too much time obsessing over metrics, and I know that there's still a fundamental link between my self esteem and my self worth and these metrics and numbers, which is interesting. And I sat with someone who's who wrote the book about status or status. I don't know how you guys say it over here, And he says, we all play status status. Would you say, I'm going to say status, we all play status games. I was under the opinion that I'd stopped playing them. I'd sold all my fancy things. I didn't have designer stuff, so I assumed I'd stop playing status games in my life. And he made the case to me that your games just change when you don't have a lot of money. The logos are bigger when you become a billionaire's smaller logos, but bigger yachts. People with cameras they play. You know, if my cameraman walked in now, he'd start talking about the cameras in this room and try. We all have these different games we're playing, and I'm playing a different set of games now, and I don't want to be a slave to the game. I want to be conscious of the things that I'm doing and making sure that I don't find myself in a similar position where I'm trading happiness for my self worth. That's still an ongoing challenge I have, and then I have other challenges, like I have a lot to learn about emotional regulation.

Tell me more.

Tell me more.

I find it easy to get annoyed at things. I'm never angry. I don't shout, It's not my style, but I find it easy. Ah, specifically as it relates to work things. And you said this on stage. Do you remember when we spoke. Yeah, you said, I get very annoyed at small details not being right as it relates to work and standards. And that's something that I know that I want to improve. I want to be able to take a little bit of a pause before reaction.

I find it easy to get annoyed at things. I'm never angry. I don't shout, It's not my style, but I find it easy. Ah, specifically as it relates to work things. And you said this on stage. Do you remember when we spoke. Yeah, you said, I get very annoyed at small details not being right as it relates to work and standards. And that's something that I know that I want to improve. I want to be able to take a little bit of a pause before reaction.

You said you still harbor insecurities and self worth issues based on hitting metrics. Say more about that, Like you're happy, you wake up every day with gratitude, and yet it seems paradoxical, oralaxymoronic that you still struggle with self worth issues related to metrics.

You said you still harbor insecurities and self worth issues based on hitting metrics. Say more about that, Like you're happy, you wake up every day with gratitude, and yet it seems paradoxical, oralaxymoronic that you still struggle with self worth issues related to metrics.

It seems paradoxical, but it's not because both are definitely true. So it's definitely true that I wake up every day with this like deep sense of gratitude and disbelief in my life, like it's every day. But at the same time, my obsession with being successful, like making things better, finding marginal gains everywhere, to the point that it frustrates me. And this obsession with like climbing and being bad feels like it's still rooted in the same old issues from my childhood. For me, it's about being conscious of that and having a healthy relationship with that pursuit, and again it being driven and not dragged.

It seems paradoxical, but it's not because both are definitely true. So it's definitely true that I wake up every day with this like deep sense of gratitude and disbelief in my life, like it's every day. But at the same time, my obsession with being successful, like making things better, finding marginal gains everywhere, to the point that it frustrates me. And this obsession with like climbing and being bad feels like it's still rooted in the same old issues from my childhood. For me, it's about being conscious of that and having a healthy relationship with that pursuit, and again it being driven and not dragged.

Tell me a project that you've been involved in professionally that you absolutely loved being a part of. It doesn't It may or may not have been commercially successful, but if every project you ever worked on was like this one, you would be the happiest personal life.

Tell me a project that you've been involved in professionally that you absolutely loved being a part of. It doesn't It may or may not have been commercially successful, but if every project you ever worked on was like this one, you would be the happiest personal life.

The direvers Ceo the podcast.

The direvers Ceo the podcast.

Okay, so what specifically about diriver Ceo.

Okay, so what specifically about diriver Ceo.

Yeah, it's the it's I mean the Japanese referred to it as Ruka guy.

Yeah, it's the it's I mean the Japanese referred to it as Ruka guy.

Right.

Right.

It's something that I think I can get good at. I believe it's helping other people, it's remunerative for me, and I enjoy the process. So it ticks all four boxes in that regard. Seems to be my Ika guy, as the Japanese would say. It's definitely the thing that I found in my life that that checks all those boxes. A lot of my businesses, I know that I'm running them for commercial incentives. It's ticking a curiosity box, but it's really for a common means and end. But the dirivers here would be the one, is there.

It's something that I think I can get good at. I believe it's helping other people, it's remunerative for me, and I enjoy the process. So it ticks all four boxes in that regard. Seems to be my Ika guy, as the Japanese would say. It's definitely the thing that I found in my life that that checks all those boxes. A lot of my businesses, I know that I'm running them for commercial incentives. It's ticking a curiosity box, but it's really for a common means and end. But the dirivers here would be the one, is there.

A particular guest or episode or series of guests that that capture that feeling better than anybody else.

A particular guest or episode or series of guests that that capture that feeling better than anybody else.

So many of them, obviously all of our ones. That third episode we had for me is a perfect example of that. Where you have a human being, you get to meet a human being at that human being's essence, you get to learn things that are resonant and that make you feel like your struggle isn't because you're inadequate, it's because you're a human too, and you're giving a path through your struggle. There's humor in there, there's a range of emotion in there. Those my favorite things. And if I go right down to when I was a kid, I was strange. I would go on first dates and I would ask them deep questions about their childhood. If I had a tour guide and he was telling me, I remember being in Peru and the talk guide was showing me buildings and for seven days I showed no interest, and on the seventh day, he started talking about how different cultures that he takes on the tours have different levels of happiness, and I had my undivided attention. And he said to me that on that seventh day, says, you haven't paid attention for six days, and on the seventh day when I started talking about people, you tuned in. That is it's just clearly in school, you know, two lessons that I went to and didn't get expelled from were psychology and business. All the other lessons my tenants hit thirty one percent, and that's where they kicked me out. So and I would steal this psychology books because I wanted to take them home and read them. So I've always had a focus on human beings and why they do what they do, and so this is just proven to be the perfect solution to that.

So many of them, obviously all of our ones. That third episode we had for me is a perfect example of that. Where you have a human being, you get to meet a human being at that human being's essence, you get to learn things that are resonant and that make you feel like your struggle isn't because you're inadequate, it's because you're a human too, and you're giving a path through your struggle. There's humor in there, there's a range of emotion in there. Those my favorite things. And if I go right down to when I was a kid, I was strange. I would go on first dates and I would ask them deep questions about their childhood. If I had a tour guide and he was telling me, I remember being in Peru and the talk guide was showing me buildings and for seven days I showed no interest, and on the seventh day, he started talking about how different cultures that he takes on the tours have different levels of happiness, and I had my undivided attention. And he said to me that on that seventh day, says, you haven't paid attention for six days, and on the seventh day when I started talking about people, you tuned in. That is it's just clearly in school, you know, two lessons that I went to and didn't get expelled from were psychology and business. All the other lessons my tenants hit thirty one percent, and that's where they kicked me out. So and I would steal this psychology books because I wanted to take them home and read them. So I've always had a focus on human beings and why they do what they do, and so this is just proven to be the perfect solution to that.

Tell me an early specific, happy childhood memory, something I can relive.

Tell me an early specific, happy childhood memory, something I can relive.

With you, running around in the garden with my brothers playing, having a water gun fight.

With you, running around in the garden with my brothers playing, having a water gun fight.

One water gun fight you're talking about, or something you.

One water gun fight you're talking about, or something you.

Didn't one particular one I remember.

Didn't one particular one I remember.

Okay, tell me about what of all the magical things? And I know you had weird childhood, but of all the magical things that happened as a child. What is it about this one thing that you're choosing to tell me about it now?

Okay, tell me about what of all the magical things? And I know you had weird childhood, but of all the magical things that happened as a child. What is it about this one thing that you're choosing to tell me about it now?

Freedom of any worries just felt. I just felt the sun of my body running around through the garden. A house at this point wasn't dilapidated, parents were still in reasonable terms with each other. And yeah, it was freedom. It was sunshine. I was away from school. I didn't really like school. It was freedom. And that freedom is something I've pursued my whole life, absolutely in an unrelenting way.

Freedom of any worries just felt. I just felt the sun of my body running around through the garden. A house at this point wasn't dilapidated, parents were still in reasonable terms with each other. And yeah, it was freedom. It was sunshine. I was away from school. I didn't really like school. It was freedom. And that freedom is something I've pursued my whole life, absolutely in an unrelenting way.

I do believe that you've done things were you played in the garden before, you did things where you played with your friends, where you had a sense of freedom. You know, what was it about this one where you're playing with your brothers?

I do believe that you've done things were you played in the garden before, you did things where you played with your friends, where you had a sense of freedom. You know, what was it about this one where you're playing with your brothers?

Just seems to be perfect that day. I don't know why. It seems like everything there was ease, and there was so much disease in my childhood. There was so much screaming and shouting. This particular day just seems to be very easy. Everything was there, the son was there, my family were there. They seemed to be happy, the house was fine, wasn't any worry, and I was free, And that freedom is really why. I'm an entrepreneur just not very good at being constrained. Am a remarkably good quitter. It's one of my greatest skills. It's being better than everyone I know.

Just seems to be perfect that day. I don't know why. It seems like everything there was ease, and there was so much disease in my childhood. There was so much screaming and shouting. This particular day just seems to be very easy. Everything was there, the son was there, my family were there. They seemed to be happy, the house was fine, wasn't any worry, and I was free, And that freedom is really why. I'm an entrepreneur just not very good at being constrained. Am a remarkably good quitter. It's one of my greatest skills. It's being better than everyone I know.

A quitting say more about that.

A quitting say more about that.

I just think I'm a really, really good quitter. I reflect on money.

I just think I'm a really, really good quitter. I reflect on money.

You know, you know the right time to quit, or you just quit too quickly, you quit too easily.

You know, you know the right time to quit, or you just quit too quickly, you quit too easily.

Know the right time to quit, But it's sort of intuitive and instinctive than that. Quit with such ease and such little worry about the path forward or what I'm the path behind me? And yeah, that's really it. I think quitting. The real skill of quitting isn't necessarily knowing, because you can't know, But it's knowing that you can't tolerate the current situation. It's knowing that uncertainty is a better hand to have than misery.

Know the right time to quit, But it's sort of intuitive and instinctive than that. Quit with such ease and such little worry about the path forward or what I'm the path behind me? And yeah, that's really it. I think quitting. The real skill of quitting isn't necessarily knowing, because you can't know, But it's knowing that you can't tolerate the current situation. It's knowing that uncertainty is a better hand to have than misery.

But what about there's a young generation now that quits very easily. Yeah, and they seem to be following your council, which is this sucks. I could go talk to somebody, but they probably won't listen to me. What's the point of going to talk to somebody who doesn't care about me? Anyway? Everything you're saying can be rationalized and used to justify quitting regularly to the point of too much and too easily. Well, I think where's the new ones.

But what about there's a young generation now that quits very easily. Yeah, and they seem to be following your council, which is this sucks. I could go talk to somebody, but they probably won't listen to me. What's the point of going to talk to somebody who doesn't care about me? Anyway? Everything you're saying can be rationalized and used to justify quitting regularly to the point of too much and too easily. Well, I think where's the new ones.

I think the key point, the key point of difference is I'm saying, when you think about the fight to change something, you have to weigh up the rewards on offer. You don't lead a fight to change something in your job if the rewards on offer are still at the other end of that a job that you absolutely hate, you know, or if you think that all the effort it would take would still leave you with a job you hate. You fight for something when you believe that the fight is worthy of the eventual cause. And I believe it's the nuance as well as it relates to gen zs and work and culture is when you're young, and I talk about this as well a little bit in my book is you should really be focused on filling these first two buckets, which are your knowledge and skills, irrespective of I believe the resources, the reputation, and the network you get from the role. I think those are the most important things. I talk about these first five buckets in your life, knowledge being the first one, which is what you know, skills, which is what you can do, resources which is what you have, the network which is who you know, and your reputation, which is what the world thinks of you. It's really those first two buckets that are the most important, and it's all five buckets that are going to decide the course of your life. The example I give is of my friend in San Francisco was in his front porch and a guy comes running towards him, sweating and saying he's building these rockets and putting these chips in people's brains. Then he runs off, and well, my friend told me that I was like, my first knee jerk reaction was that is a psychopath that had escaped from the asylum. My friend said it was Elon Musk And in the minute, you know that it's because of Elon's reputation and all of that, those five buckets that he's paid into. You know, the world is his oyster. And I think young people what sometimes they'll do is they'll choose reputation, or they'll choose resources, which is money or remuneration in any regard, or they'll choose network. Working with in a place that surrounded by call people versus knowledge and skills, And I would implore all young people to focus on jobs that give them knowledge and skills, the two buckets that no one can ever take from you. No professional earthquake can empty those buckets.

I think the key point, the key point of difference is I'm saying, when you think about the fight to change something, you have to weigh up the rewards on offer. You don't lead a fight to change something in your job if the rewards on offer are still at the other end of that a job that you absolutely hate, you know, or if you think that all the effort it would take would still leave you with a job you hate. You fight for something when you believe that the fight is worthy of the eventual cause. And I believe it's the nuance as well as it relates to gen zs and work and culture is when you're young, and I talk about this as well a little bit in my book is you should really be focused on filling these first two buckets, which are your knowledge and skills, irrespective of I believe the resources, the reputation, and the network you get from the role. I think those are the most important things. I talk about these first five buckets in your life, knowledge being the first one, which is what you know, skills, which is what you can do, resources which is what you have, the network which is who you know, and your reputation, which is what the world thinks of you. It's really those first two buckets that are the most important, and it's all five buckets that are going to decide the course of your life. The example I give is of my friend in San Francisco was in his front porch and a guy comes running towards him, sweating and saying he's building these rockets and putting these chips in people's brains. Then he runs off, and well, my friend told me that I was like, my first knee jerk reaction was that is a psychopath that had escaped from the asylum. My friend said it was Elon Musk And in the minute, you know that it's because of Elon's reputation and all of that, those five buckets that he's paid into. You know, the world is his oyster. And I think young people what sometimes they'll do is they'll choose reputation, or they'll choose resources, which is money or remuneration in any regard, or they'll choose network. Working with in a place that surrounded by call people versus knowledge and skills, And I would implore all young people to focus on jobs that give them knowledge and skills, the two buckets that no one can ever take from you. No professional earthquake can empty those buckets.

Leaning into tension, like some of my relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, where there was a tension and I should have walked away instead I had an uncomfortable conversation ended up making the relationship stronger. Now where sounds like an exit interview, sounds like, say more.

Leaning into tension, like some of my relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, where there was a tension and I should have walked away instead I had an uncomfortable conversation ended up making the relationship stronger. Now where sounds like an exit interview, sounds like, say more.

When someone leaves the situation, when there's a breakdown in situation, you conduct an exit interview with them. Yeah, our exit interviews are surprisingly illuminating. I read every single one of them in every single company I have. It's the one thing which Lisa has to send me on an email, and I find things out about people that just sat in the office and might not have spoken up or raised a grievance because they were finally given a safe environment where they were asked about what they really thought about a lot of things.

When someone leaves the situation, when there's a breakdown in situation, you conduct an exit interview with them. Yeah, our exit interviews are surprisingly illuminating. I read every single one of them in every single company I have. It's the one thing which Lisa has to send me on an email, and I find things out about people that just sat in the office and might not have spoken up or raised a grievance because they were finally given a safe environment where they were asked about what they really thought about a lot of things.

What's some insight that you got that you were able to change the culture.

What's some insight that you got that you were able to change the culture.

For example, the Diri of Cootea, which is thirty people, we now have three sixty interviews because I read things in an exit interview for a different company and I had no idea that person felt that way. Why didn't I ask?

For example, the Diri of Cootea, which is thirty people, we now have three sixty interviews because I read things in an exit interview for a different company and I had no idea that person felt that way. Why didn't I ask?

So, is that why you built in the three sixties? So you can get that information?

So, is that why you built in the three sixties? So you can get that information?

And also trying to dissuade people to join the company before we interview them. You think you think of interviews as a place where you're selling yourself. Because of these exit interviews, and because I know that our culture is so clear and non negotiable in many respects, I try and dissuade people from joining at the very start. Now, So what do you say. I'm just very honest about the way that we work and the expectations is we're a team that are absolutely absolutely sweat the small stuff. Yeah, in every regard we work in the office, we have what we call freedom within parameters. So these are the parameters of our working environment. We're in on Mondays, we're in on Fridays, We're in most of the time, and then you're given freedom to make your own decisions. So if you're not in today, I have no idea where you are. No one's going to ask you. If you're not in for three days, I have no idea where you are no one's going to ask you. You're totally trusted in that regard. But we need these parameters because we believe in synchronous collaborative work as well. And I laid out this manifesto to my teams, which I sent to them basically saying that we're going to be in the office. But the key thing was explaining why, the underlying values and principles as to why we're in the office and how that links back to us achieving these big ambitions that we all want to win. And in there it says some you will do the best work of our lives, sometimes in a coffee shop or in a beach, and we'll do some of it in the office. It's a hopefully it's a nuanced thing. I'm really clear on that. My biggest thing in teams, in company building is culture.

And also trying to dissuade people to join the company before we interview them. You think you think of interviews as a place where you're selling yourself. Because of these exit interviews, and because I know that our culture is so clear and non negotiable in many respects, I try and dissuade people from joining at the very start. Now, So what do you say. I'm just very honest about the way that we work and the expectations is we're a team that are absolutely absolutely sweat the small stuff. Yeah, in every regard we work in the office, we have what we call freedom within parameters. So these are the parameters of our working environment. We're in on Mondays, we're in on Fridays, We're in most of the time, and then you're given freedom to make your own decisions. So if you're not in today, I have no idea where you are. No one's going to ask you. If you're not in for three days, I have no idea where you are no one's going to ask you. You're totally trusted in that regard. But we need these parameters because we believe in synchronous collaborative work as well. And I laid out this manifesto to my teams, which I sent to them basically saying that we're going to be in the office. But the key thing was explaining why, the underlying values and principles as to why we're in the office and how that links back to us achieving these big ambitions that we all want to win. And in there it says some you will do the best work of our lives, sometimes in a coffee shop or in a beach, and we'll do some of it in the office. It's a hopefully it's a nuanced thing. I'm really clear on that. My biggest thing in teams, in company building is culture.

The older I've.

The older I've.

Gotten business, the more I've realized that my job is simply to hire the best people in the world in buying them with a culture that makes one plus one qual three. And it's my obsession. I'm so obsessed with it you wouldn't believe it. How to get a group of people to behave in a manner that is conducive with best outcomes. And that's also links to my obsession of psychology. I read a lot about this in my bookin I've studied it a lot, and I've spoken to the best managers in the world that big sports teams and their players, and I've learned so much in this department.

Gotten business, the more I've realized that my job is simply to hire the best people in the world in buying them with a culture that makes one plus one qual three. And it's my obsession. I'm so obsessed with it you wouldn't believe it. How to get a group of people to behave in a manner that is conducive with best outcomes. And that's also links to my obsession of psychology. I read a lot about this in my bookin I've studied it a lot, and I've spoken to the best managers in the world that big sports teams and their players, and I've learned so much in this department.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm channeling my inner Stephen Bartlett.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm channeling my inner Stephen Bartlett.

Listen.

Listen.

I I'm just sort of sitting here and letting you.

I I'm just sort of sitting here and letting you.

Yeah, that's what we do, a thing, that's my thing. Listening.

Yeah, that's what we do, a thing, that's my thing. Listening.

What I think is interesting, which is to tell somebody upfront that we sweat the small stuff. Right. What I'm curious about you as a leader as you grow as a leader, especially when scale starts to show up. You know, when you have you know, thirty people becomes fifty people because eighty people comes a thousand people. You know, or you don't actually know everybody's name anymore, and you don't recognize everybody's you know, you walk through a hole and you like you don't even know the people who work for you.

What I think is interesting, which is to tell somebody upfront that we sweat the small stuff. Right. What I'm curious about you as a leader as you grow as a leader, especially when scale starts to show up. You know, when you have you know, thirty people becomes fifty people because eighty people comes a thousand people. You know, or you don't actually know everybody's name anymore, and you don't recognize everybody's you know, you walk through a hole and you like you don't even know the people who work for you.

I've been there.

I've been there.

I've seen you sweat the small stuff and you and I are very, very different in how we sweat the small stuff. And I'm very curious, how do you know the impact on your team the way you sweat the small stuff? What ripple effects it has? Are they able to sweat the small stuff when you're sweating the small stuff for them? So I give you a real live example. Yeah, it's an example. I mean, we talked about it a little bit, but when we did our charity show at the Royal Festival Hall, the mix on the music was all wrong. The music overshadowed our voices, which is the intro music before we came on. And I knew it and you knew it, and we said to the team that needs to be fixed. And you sat in the audience and kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing. And I was watching you sweat the small stuff. I don't know if you noticed, but I sort of like, well away, I went and did my own thing. And not because I thought, oh, Stephen's got this under control. It's because the way I do that is different, and my attitude is and it's not right or wrong. And this is what I think is interesting. I sweat the small stuff by saying, in no uncertain terms, this must be fixed before we go live, and then I expect them to fix it. But I watched what happened, and I don't know if you know this is because you were sweating the small stuff. It increased the level of stress. The people who are professionals who know exactly what they're doing now became vendors moving a level up and moving a level down because you told them to, not because they said, I think i'm going to I'm going to try this and see if that works. They became order takers and we got the product. But my question is at what cost? And for one night whatever? Right, But when it's your own team, the question is is that sustainable and how does that make somebody feel over the course of time when absolutely create a culture where you expect them to sweat the small stuff. And the analogy I'll give is a military analogy where there's something called commander's intent, where the commander says I want this accomplished and then walks away, and it's up to the team to figure out how to get it done and to get it done to the satisfaction of the commander. But the commander doesn't say, have you tried this?

I've seen you sweat the small stuff and you and I are very, very different in how we sweat the small stuff. And I'm very curious, how do you know the impact on your team the way you sweat the small stuff? What ripple effects it has? Are they able to sweat the small stuff when you're sweating the small stuff for them? So I give you a real live example. Yeah, it's an example. I mean, we talked about it a little bit, but when we did our charity show at the Royal Festival Hall, the mix on the music was all wrong. The music overshadowed our voices, which is the intro music before we came on. And I knew it and you knew it, and we said to the team that needs to be fixed. And you sat in the audience and kept pushing and kept pushing and kept pushing. And I was watching you sweat the small stuff. I don't know if you noticed, but I sort of like, well away, I went and did my own thing. And not because I thought, oh, Stephen's got this under control. It's because the way I do that is different, and my attitude is and it's not right or wrong. And this is what I think is interesting. I sweat the small stuff by saying, in no uncertain terms, this must be fixed before we go live, and then I expect them to fix it. But I watched what happened, and I don't know if you know this is because you were sweating the small stuff. It increased the level of stress. The people who are professionals who know exactly what they're doing now became vendors moving a level up and moving a level down because you told them to, not because they said, I think i'm going to I'm going to try this and see if that works. They became order takers and we got the product. But my question is at what cost? And for one night whatever? Right, But when it's your own team, the question is is that sustainable and how does that make somebody feel over the course of time when absolutely create a culture where you expect them to sweat the small stuff. And the analogy I'll give is a military analogy where there's something called commander's intent, where the commander says I want this accomplished and then walks away, and it's up to the team to figure out how to get it done and to get it done to the satisfaction of the commander. But the commander doesn't say, have you tried this?

Do this?

Do this?

Now? Try this wait, that didn't work. Do this over here. And what they're doing is building confidence and leaders in their wake versus order takers and creating an environment where confidence might actually not grow.

Now? Try this wait, that didn't work. Do this over here. And what they're doing is building confidence and leaders in their wake versus order takers and creating an environment where confidence might actually not grow.

So I so that specific example is a good one. So I arrive in the hall, right, we've got an hour to go. Done multiple shows myself. The last one I did there was real issues with sound and acoustics. Yeah, so that's on my mind. Got it. I sit down, they play it. Nobody see seems to this is my specific This is not my team, yep. So I have no idea about their behaviors, whether they are whether I can say something to them and it will change instantly. I don't have that level of confidence. I've never met these people before. I hear it and there's a clear issue with the audioce it's bad. I know that. The last time I let that slide. I then woke up in the morning to twenty seven messages across LinkedIn and Instagram of people really unhappy that had spent seventy pounds to come to a show. That's front of mind for me. That LinkedIn message, that essay that girl sent me from Glasgow, who had traveled down from Glasgow to see this show. Then, because of an audio issue we had, she sent me an essay telling me she had a bad time. That's weighing on my mind, so I communicate that I think it needs to be better. They play the new sound, and I still think it's not good enough. Correct. It seems like some people around me think it's good enough. It doesn't meet my standard yet, so I say it's not quite there. They play it again. It's not quite there. It again seems to me that people around me are okay with that standard. It's not okay for me. Right for me, it has to be there. They play it again. Seems to me like some people around me would at that point say that's good enough. Not for me, because I'm thinking about Rebecca, who sends me the LinkedIn message with the essay tomorrow morning when she comes out and she couldn't have heard it, and she's traveled from another country. We had people coming from other countries. So my decision was, I will sit there and I'm not telling these audio people to do because I ain't got a clue what they're doing, and I'll just say when I think that I can hear the audio clearly, and eventually it got to a point where it was about eighty percent, and they said, we'll continue to work on it, and then I walked away. That's how I am. If you work with me, you'll know that there's a standard. And I've seen you ask me the question, how does this impact the people around me? I genuinely believe that when you look at the podcast trailers that we have, you've told me you think they're the best, and you said to me as well that your team are trying to emuate them. Yeah, that's what it is. It's we sit there sometimes on Sunday night till two am, tweaking one second because we that is both a controllable thing and it's the thing that most teams don't care about. They go to bed, they walk away. For sure, it's my it's my belief. And I say this a lot in the book that fighting for the most use phrased in my office is one percent. It's our religion. If we were to get hoodies, they would say one percent on the back of them. We believe that it's the small things that most people don't care about that are the things where the most accessible and important gains are made. So that's audio for me, was one thing I could control. It was getting that right an hour before the show, and when we walked out it was perfect.

So I so that specific example is a good one. So I arrive in the hall, right, we've got an hour to go. Done multiple shows myself. The last one I did there was real issues with sound and acoustics. Yeah, so that's on my mind. Got it. I sit down, they play it. Nobody see seems to this is my specific This is not my team, yep. So I have no idea about their behaviors, whether they are whether I can say something to them and it will change instantly. I don't have that level of confidence. I've never met these people before. I hear it and there's a clear issue with the audioce it's bad. I know that. The last time I let that slide. I then woke up in the morning to twenty seven messages across LinkedIn and Instagram of people really unhappy that had spent seventy pounds to come to a show. That's front of mind for me. That LinkedIn message, that essay that girl sent me from Glasgow, who had traveled down from Glasgow to see this show. Then, because of an audio issue we had, she sent me an essay telling me she had a bad time. That's weighing on my mind, so I communicate that I think it needs to be better. They play the new sound, and I still think it's not good enough. Correct. It seems like some people around me think it's good enough. It doesn't meet my standard yet, so I say it's not quite there. They play it again. It's not quite there. It again seems to me that people around me are okay with that standard. It's not okay for me. Right for me, it has to be there. They play it again. Seems to me like some people around me would at that point say that's good enough. Not for me, because I'm thinking about Rebecca, who sends me the LinkedIn message with the essay tomorrow morning when she comes out and she couldn't have heard it, and she's traveled from another country. We had people coming from other countries. So my decision was, I will sit there and I'm not telling these audio people to do because I ain't got a clue what they're doing, and I'll just say when I think that I can hear the audio clearly, and eventually it got to a point where it was about eighty percent, and they said, we'll continue to work on it, and then I walked away. That's how I am. If you work with me, you'll know that there's a standard. And I've seen you ask me the question, how does this impact the people around me? I genuinely believe that when you look at the podcast trailers that we have, you've told me you think they're the best, and you said to me as well that your team are trying to emuate them. Yeah, that's what it is. It's we sit there sometimes on Sunday night till two am, tweaking one second because we that is both a controllable thing and it's the thing that most teams don't care about. They go to bed, they walk away. For sure, it's my it's my belief. And I say this a lot in the book that fighting for the most use phrased in my office is one percent. It's our religion. If we were to get hoodies, they would say one percent on the back of them. We believe that it's the small things that most people don't care about that are the things where the most accessible and important gains are made. So that's audio for me, was one thing I could control. It was getting that right an hour before the show, and when we walked out it was perfect.

It was Do you want to know how I dealt with that situation, because I dealt with it simultaneously with you. I was also very very unsatisfied, and it had to be good for all the same reasons. I know people are traveling in, people are paying good money, I know it's a special event, and you and I have the same very high standard that we want people to walk away going. That was so worth money and two hours of my life, and I'm so so glad. I went like, I want them to feel that they got the better half of the deal. Every time I went to the senior person there, the one who's reputation is on the line for putting the show on, and I leaned into them and said this is not good. I said, this has to be better.

It was Do you want to know how I dealt with that situation, because I dealt with it simultaneously with you. I was also very very unsatisfied, and it had to be good for all the same reasons. I know people are traveling in, people are paying good money, I know it's a special event, and you and I have the same very high standard that we want people to walk away going. That was so worth money and two hours of my life, and I'm so so glad. I went like, I want them to feel that they got the better half of the deal. Every time I went to the senior person there, the one who's reputation is on the line for putting the show on, and I leaned into them and said this is not good. I said, this has to be better.

So I didn't know who they were, right, I had no idea who any of these people were, So for me, I was like, I can't trust people that I've never ever met professionally to deliver upon a standard. When when I was like, the people that are coming are tagging me on Instagram, so that's the moment. And had I not had a show recently where there was an audio problem and there was a big backlash which I had to answer for, or if it was my team when I turned to my team and I said, we have to get this right. If I'd said that to my team, I could have walked away. So but if I say that to that team I've never met, I'm going to sit and make sure.