I love talking to people who are smarter than me, and live Burye is a lot smarter than me. She is a retired champion poker player with a background get this in astrophysics. Now she's a media personality and podcaster who loves digging into topics like AI game theory and more. And that's what we talked about a whole bunch of things. But the route was all about competition and more importantly, how we can prevent our own desires to compete and excel from actually working against us. This is a bit of optimism.

I love talking to people who are smarter than me, and live Burye is a lot smarter than me. She is a retired champion poker player with a background get this in astrophysics. Now she's a media personality and podcaster who loves digging into topics like AI game theory and more. And that's what we talked about a whole bunch of things. But the route was all about competition and more importantly, how we can prevent our own desires to compete and excel from actually working against us. This is a bit of optimism.

How do you.

How do you.

Define yourself because you are a Jaine of ol trades?

Define yourself because you are a Jaine of ol trades?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I mean I have here that I didn't even know.

I mean I have here that I didn't even know.

This all about you?

This all about you?

This is great. You were a guitar player in metal bands, you were a cage dancer in clubs. You're a game show contestant, an astrophysicist, a professional poker player, like.

This is great. You were a guitar player in metal bands, you were a cage dancer in clubs. You're a game show contestant, an astrophysicist, a professional poker player, like.

The craziest path. I'll ask you the dreaded question.

The craziest path. I'll ask you the dreaded question.

If you're at a bar and you meet somebody who at a you know, sitting next to someone a plane live, what do you do.

If you're at a bar and you meet somebody who at a you know, sitting next to someone a plane live, what do you do.

I am someone who is trying to understand how we a healthier relationship with competition and more generate more win win scenarios in the world, and also help figure out how we align the things that we do in our work with the good of the whole that tends to lead you down the path of things like AI safety, how to make business practices more aligned with you know, what's actually sustainable for humanity and so on. See, I can't answer the question. It's very it's a very long winded thing. But basically, yeah, I guess I'm like a I don't know science communicator.

I am someone who is trying to understand how we a healthier relationship with competition and more generate more win win scenarios in the world, and also help figure out how we align the things that we do in our work with the good of the whole that tends to lead you down the path of things like AI safety, how to make business practices more aligned with you know, what's actually sustainable for humanity and so on. See, I can't answer the question. It's very it's a very long winded thing. But basically, yeah, I guess I'm like a I don't know science communicator.

Well, I'm going to come back to this, Okay, I'm not letting you off the hook. There's something that I find very interesting about you and how you describe yourself, which is, and I want to make sure they get the word right, which is you call yourself pathologically competitive.

Well, I'm going to come back to this, Okay, I'm not letting you off the hook. There's something that I find very interesting about you and how you describe yourself, which is, and I want to make sure they get the word right, which is you call yourself pathologically competitive.

Right.

Right.

This is interesting to me because I am not that I'm competitive in different ways. I am curious, A, what does that mean in how you define that? And then we're going to go down this rabbit.

This is interesting to me because I am not that I'm competitive in different ways. I am curious, A, what does that mean in how you define that? And then we're going to go down this rabbit.

Well I should caveat that with I used to be pathologically competitive.

Well I should caveat that with I used to be pathologically competitive.

Well, it's pathological.

Well, it's pathological.

You can you can cure pathologies, or you can outgrow things. You can morph over time. People are changeable.

You can you can cure pathologies, or you can outgrow things. You can morph over time. People are changeable.

So let's okay, so you used to be yes, from what age did this begin?

So let's okay, so you used to be yes, from what age did this begin?

The moment I could think and reason and speak and do I think?

The moment I could think and reason and speak and do I think?

So you wanted to be out of the womb quicker than all the other kids in the I had to.

So you wanted to be out of the womb quicker than all the other kids in the I had to.

Be first, I had to be the best. I was competitive in the classic sense that I wanted to win. But the pathological was that it was sort of like my default state of being. It would often manifest I would say, in sort of unhealthy ways. Now I've got this like the luxury of time and maturity, and so when I can look back and be like, you know what, that probably wasn't optimal.

Be first, I had to be the best. I was competitive in the classic sense that I wanted to win. But the pathological was that it was sort of like my default state of being. It would often manifest I would say, in sort of unhealthy ways. Now I've got this like the luxury of time and maturity, and so when I can look back and be like, you know what, that probably wasn't optimal.

Give me an example of when when it was suboptimal. Which is an ironic term to use when you're talking about pathological competitiveness.

Give me an example of when when it was suboptimal. Which is an ironic term to use when you're talking about pathological competitiveness.

So when it would like manifest in things like jealousy.

So when it would like manifest in things like jealousy.

Give me an example.

Give me an example.

When I was like starting out in poker, I would feel literally, I mean, no, there's no better word for it, jealousy when another woman who was of the same like sort of you know, if she was young, especially if she was kind of attractive, if she had a success in a tournament, Even though it made no difference to me, like I would feel this deep jealousy.

When I was like starting out in poker, I would feel literally, I mean, no, there's no better word for it, jealousy when another woman who was of the same like sort of you know, if she was young, especially if she was kind of attractive, if she had a success in a tournament, Even though it made no difference to me, like I would feel this deep jealousy.

And even in a tournament you weren't even in, well.

And even in a tournament you weren't even in, well.

Yeah, or I'd already busted out of or whatever, and I'd be like paying attention, like, oh god, hope she doesn't make the final table, which is just like I look back on that, I'm like, what on earth? You know? And that's that was this like this unhealthy competitiveness that it was just like the reason why I would like this, this ego, this this shitty part of my ego, would feel threatened by her is because actually she fit the same demographic as me, if she was an older woman or like a dude, Like I didn't tell any jealousy towards the dude when they won, you know, but like ninety eight percent of people in poker tournaments are men.

Yeah, or I'd already busted out of or whatever, and I'd be like paying attention, like, oh god, hope she doesn't make the final table, which is just like I look back on that, I'm like, what on earth? You know? And that's that was this like this unhealthy competitiveness that it was just like the reason why I would like this, this ego, this this shitty part of my ego, would feel threatened by her is because actually she fit the same demographic as me, if she was an older woman or like a dude, Like I didn't tell any jealousy towards the dude when they won, you know, but like ninety eight percent of people in poker tournaments are men.

So was there an event that helped you overcome this pathology or was it more subtle or it was it just age that you know, you sort of at one point work up. We were like that's like you look back and be like that was stupid? Or was there actually something that slapped you around that made you realize.

So was there an event that helped you overcome this pathology or was it more subtle or it was it just age that you know, you sort of at one point work up. We were like that's like you look back and be like that was stupid? Or was there actually something that slapped you around that made you realize.

No, there was no sudden like wake up, but it was just over time. As I got older, I was like, this doesn't seem you know, And like speaking to performance coaches and people like that, you know, they're like, you know, focus on yourself. It's all about the process. The only person you should be competitive with, especially in poker, is yourself. Right, how did I perform against myself two months ago, right, a year ago or whatever. So all these little tidbits of general wisdom that I slowly started accumulating helped sort of mellow it. Also, then I got you know, when I had more success, it made it a little bit easier. But even when I was like sort of peak of my poker career and success, that's still it was still in there somehow.

No, there was no sudden like wake up, but it was just over time. As I got older, I was like, this doesn't seem you know, And like speaking to performance coaches and people like that, you know, they're like, you know, focus on yourself. It's all about the process. The only person you should be competitive with, especially in poker, is yourself. Right, how did I perform against myself two months ago, right, a year ago or whatever. So all these little tidbits of general wisdom that I slowly started accumulating helped sort of mellow it. Also, then I got you know, when I had more success, it made it a little bit easier. But even when I was like sort of peak of my poker career and success, that's still it was still in there somehow.

It's like this this deep insecurity.

It's like this this deep insecurity.

Yeah, insecurity or something.

Yeah, insecurity or something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I've talked about this and I've wrote written about this as well, and I can empathize almost to a t with what you're saying. You know, there's somebody else who does what I do, who writes books, gives talks, all that stuff, And I would regularly log onto Amazon and check his book rankings, and if he was ahead of me, I had an anger. There's no other way to describe it. I'd sit by myself staring at the Amazon ranking with anger, you know, and if I was ahead in the book rankings that arbitrary day that I happened to check, you know, i'd sort of be really full of myself, you know, this sort of like huh, there you go.

You know, I've talked about this and I've wrote written about this as well, and I can empathize almost to a t with what you're saying. You know, there's somebody else who does what I do, who writes books, gives talks, all that stuff, And I would regularly log onto Amazon and check his book rankings, and if he was ahead of me, I had an anger. There's no other way to describe it. I'd sit by myself staring at the Amazon ranking with anger, you know, and if I was ahead in the book rankings that arbitrary day that I happened to check, you know, i'd sort of be really full of myself, you know, this sort of like huh, there you go.

That's that's correct.

That's that's correct.

You know, all is right with the world, is right with the world. I'm clearly ahead in the ranking.

You know, all is right with the world, is right with the world. I'm clearly ahead in the ranking.

You know. So was this guy also kind of in the similar realm?

You know. So was this guy also kind of in the similar realm?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Yeah. We speak at the same conferences and we know each other. We were always very polite to each other, and same as you. I never did anything to him, nothing ever happened. I never sort of said anything. I never undermined him. But like when people would bring up his name in polite conversation and I would see like I'd be like, oh, yeah, he's so smart, and inside I'd be like, you know, I would see at the very mention of his name. We were invited to speak at the same conference, and not like me in the morning, him in the afternoon, but we were going to be interviewed together on the same stage, and the interviewer decided that instead of introducing us, we should introduce each other and I went first, and I turned to him, and instead of thet of like telling the audience like who he was, I turned to him and I said, you make me really insecure.

Yeah. We speak at the same conferences and we know each other. We were always very polite to each other, and same as you. I never did anything to him, nothing ever happened. I never sort of said anything. I never undermined him. But like when people would bring up his name in polite conversation and I would see like I'd be like, oh, yeah, he's so smart, and inside I'd be like, you know, I would see at the very mention of his name. We were invited to speak at the same conference, and not like me in the morning, him in the afternoon, but we were going to be interviewed together on the same stage, and the interviewer decided that instead of introducing us, we should introduce each other and I went first, and I turned to him, and instead of thet of like telling the audience like who he was, I turned to him and I said, you make me really insecure.

Wow, I said, you make me really uncomfortable.

Wow, I said, you make me really uncomfortable.

I said, every time your name comes up, I get really uncomfortable. And it's because all of your strengths are all of my weaknesses. And he turned to me and said, funny, I think the same about you. It was in that moment that I learned that all of my anger, seething, you know, contempt, pride, all of those had nothing to do with him. It had everything to do with me. It's his mere existence reminded me of my failings or my weaknesses, and it was much easier to take it out at him or on him than it was for me to simply deal and focus on myself. And like you, in poker, like multiple people can win multiple tournaments, turns out people can buy more than one book. I'm competing against absolutely nothing. I'm competing against my imagination. But I have found that that pathological competition, which is when you're trying to beat someone in a running race, have at it. I mean that is actually the goal, which is to outrun them. But when I'm trying to beat someone in a game that literally has no end, like promotions at work, compliments from boss booksell like, literally there is no finish line and no one could ever be declared a winner. It's a stupid game that That is where I found a competitive spirit to be incredibly unhealthy.

I said, every time your name comes up, I get really uncomfortable. And it's because all of your strengths are all of my weaknesses. And he turned to me and said, funny, I think the same about you. It was in that moment that I learned that all of my anger, seething, you know, contempt, pride, all of those had nothing to do with him. It had everything to do with me. It's his mere existence reminded me of my failings or my weaknesses, and it was much easier to take it out at him or on him than it was for me to simply deal and focus on myself. And like you, in poker, like multiple people can win multiple tournaments, turns out people can buy more than one book. I'm competing against absolutely nothing. I'm competing against my imagination. But I have found that that pathological competition, which is when you're trying to beat someone in a running race, have at it. I mean that is actually the goal, which is to outrun them. But when I'm trying to beat someone in a game that literally has no end, like promotions at work, compliments from boss booksell like, literally there is no finish line and no one could ever be declared a winner. It's a stupid game that That is where I found a competitive spirit to be incredibly unhealthy.

Yes, because you.

Yes, because you.

Can actually find yourself doing things to destroy them or destroy yourself.

Can actually find yourself doing things to destroy them or destroy yourself.

It's a false zero sumness.

It's a false zero sumness.

It's a false zero sumness, right.

It's a false zero sumness, right.

You're seeing something as a fixed pie that if they get a chunk of it, then that means less for you. But actually, in reality, especially in something like being an author or a speaker, it's such a you're literally creating something out of nothing.

You're seeing something as a fixed pie that if they get a chunk of it, then that means less for you. But actually, in reality, especially in something like being an author or a speaker, it's such a you're literally creating something out of nothing.

I love talking to you about things like competing in competition a because you are competitive and a high performer. But your opinions and points of view and competition I find really interesting. In particular, I've heard you talk about the changing nature of poker as computers and mathematics have been introduced to this, and so what was poker like before computer showed up?

I love talking to you about things like competing in competition a because you are competitive and a high performer. But your opinions and points of view and competition I find really interesting. In particular, I've heard you talk about the changing nature of poker as computers and mathematics have been introduced to this, and so what was poker like before computer showed up?

Like who are the good poker players? What made them good?

Like who are the good poker players? What made them good?

If you want to go really like back prior to online poker. Yeah, in any way, almost uniformly the best players, with the exception of maybe this guy's to who was younger, and Phil Hellmuth younger younger, Yeah, the ones who were celebrated as the best players were typically older. They were very much kind of casino hustlers, you know, yeah, cowboys. Yeah, exactly like Doyle Brownson, classic actual cowboy, or at least he always worried cowboy hat. And you know, these were guys who had just spent so much time hustling in casinos, playing against all different sort of characters. They developed really good intuitions about human behavior. And I think a lot of these sort of great plays they would make. I don't think they would even understand them themselves. They wouldn't be able to explain and break down through logic why they did the play they did. They just had such good intuitions that that was sufficient to outplay everyone else.

If you want to go really like back prior to online poker. Yeah, in any way, almost uniformly the best players, with the exception of maybe this guy's to who was younger, and Phil Hellmuth younger younger, Yeah, the ones who were celebrated as the best players were typically older. They were very much kind of casino hustlers, you know, yeah, cowboys. Yeah, exactly like Doyle Brownson, classic actual cowboy, or at least he always worried cowboy hat. And you know, these were guys who had just spent so much time hustling in casinos, playing against all different sort of characters. They developed really good intuitions about human behavior. And I think a lot of these sort of great plays they would make. I don't think they would even understand them themselves. They wouldn't be able to explain and break down through logic why they did the play they did. They just had such good intuitions that that was sufficient to outplay everyone else.

Right.

Right.

But then once online poker came along, and certainly a bit later on, sort of in after twenty ten, we started seeing analysis software.

But then once online poker came along, and certainly a bit later on, sort of in after twenty ten, we started seeing analysis software.

So you can now run statistics exactly through the analysis and say you should have played this hand, or should have waited or whatever right.

So you can now run statistics exactly through the analysis and say you should have played this hand, or should have waited or whatever right.

You can see, so like, oh, in the small blind, I tend to be losing more than expectation. I'm playing these positions well, but these ones not so well. So you could start to pinpoint. And then from twenty fifteen onwards we then had what are called simulators. Basically you could input a sort of fictitious situation or a real situation actually, and then press play and it would run for let's say eight hours to find the optimal solutions. Wow, this was a game changer because now you actually could find out what the mathematically optimal solutions are, and then whoever was willing to sit and like memorize those could incorporate them into their game when they then go and play.

You can see, so like, oh, in the small blind, I tend to be losing more than expectation. I'm playing these positions well, but these ones not so well. So you could start to pinpoint. And then from twenty fifteen onwards we then had what are called simulators. Basically you could input a sort of fictitious situation or a real situation actually, and then press play and it would run for let's say eight hours to find the optimal solutions. Wow, this was a game changer because now you actually could find out what the mathematically optimal solutions are, and then whoever was willing to sit and like memorize those could incorporate them into their game when they then go and play.

So did you play gut or did you memorize the mathematics?

So did you play gut or did you memorize the mathematics?

I did try to do both. You can't really learn how to exploit your opponents unless you know what optimal players in the first place, and so you need to know that stuff and then develop good understanding of what people do when they are deviating from that so that you can figure out how to exploit them.

I did try to do both. You can't really learn how to exploit your opponents unless you know what optimal players in the first place, and so you need to know that stuff and then develop good understanding of what people do when they are deviating from that so that you can figure out how to exploit them.

So I forgot which book it was, but there was a book that talked about like the importance of experience and gut. And they gave a few different incredible examples, and I remember one of them, which was and it's true, so it was a true story. Is a case study of a group of firefighters, like I think they were sort of forest firefighters, and they were out in the field and one of them was the senior and the older one, and the rest of them were you know, young guys, and a wind had picked up and a wall of fire was burning the dry grass and approaching them at an incredible speed.

So I forgot which book it was, but there was a book that talked about like the importance of experience and gut. And they gave a few different incredible examples, and I remember one of them, which was and it's true, so it was a true story. Is a case study of a group of firefighters, like I think they were sort of forest firefighters, and they were out in the field and one of them was the senior and the older one, and the rest of them were you know, young guys, and a wind had picked up and a wall of fire was burning the dry grass and approaching them at an incredible speed.

There was panic.

There was panic.

They all dropped their equipment and started running, and they could just slightly outrun the fire if they ran at full pace, and the older guy they The problem was the older guy looked ahead and they were coming up to a hill and he starts screaming at them, duck down, duck down, duck down, stop running, duck down. And they all ignored him, because when there's a fire coming at you, stopping doesn't is not nothing you want to do. But the old guy stopped, got on the ground, covered his head and just lay there. And the fire was going so quickly that it just ran right over him, rendering no damage to him, no harm to him. And when they started up the hill, the fire caught up to them and killed all of them. And no one taught them that. No one taught them how a fire works. That don't worry, it's burning so quickly that it won't burn you. And this older guy.

They all dropped their equipment and started running, and they could just slightly outrun the fire if they ran at full pace, and the older guy they The problem was the older guy looked ahead and they were coming up to a hill and he starts screaming at them, duck down, duck down, duck down, stop running, duck down. And they all ignored him, because when there's a fire coming at you, stopping doesn't is not nothing you want to do. But the old guy stopped, got on the ground, covered his head and just lay there. And the fire was going so quickly that it just ran right over him, rendering no damage to him, no harm to him. And when they started up the hill, the fire caught up to them and killed all of them. And no one taught them that. No one taught them how a fire works. That don't worry, it's burning so quickly that it won't burn you. And this older guy.

He was never taught it.

He was never taught it.

It just occurred to him in the moment he knew the gut told him this is what you have to do. And in this book, I just remember case study. I have to case study of these kinds of things we're experienced that something tells me that the data says this, And they gave examples of where the data said you have to do this. But oh, I'm not going to trust the data. I'm going to follow my gut here. And so what I think is so interesting about the rise of algorithms. And let's be clear what an algorithm is. I mean, the term is bandied about so much. Right, It's simply a list of instructions. A recipe to bake a cake is an algorithm, and the algorithm says if this, then that. That's all it is, is a list of instruction. But we become so obsessed with mathematics algorithms on all of this even the way that marketing used to be a gut thing. Now it's just an algorithm thing. You know, you'd ab test something and their decisions made.

It just occurred to him in the moment he knew the gut told him this is what you have to do. And in this book, I just remember case study. I have to case study of these kinds of things we're experienced that something tells me that the data says this, And they gave examples of where the data said you have to do this. But oh, I'm not going to trust the data. I'm going to follow my gut here. And so what I think is so interesting about the rise of algorithms. And let's be clear what an algorithm is. I mean, the term is bandied about so much. Right, It's simply a list of instructions. A recipe to bake a cake is an algorithm, and the algorithm says if this, then that. That's all it is, is a list of instruction. But we become so obsessed with mathematics algorithms on all of this even the way that marketing used to be a gut thing. Now it's just an algorithm thing. You know, you'd ab test something and their decisions made.

I don't care how experienced you are. What is the role of gut anymore?

I don't care how experienced you are. What is the role of gut anymore?

When we can have computational speeds that are so quick, Like, do humans even get the chance to make a decision anymore in anything we do?

When we can have computational speeds that are so quick, Like, do humans even get the chance to make a decision anymore in anything we do?

Right? My theory is, and I don't know this for sure, and I don't think the science is at all accepted, but my theory is that just our brains are doing all kinds of you know, there's so much information going in all the time, and memories that are laid down. You know that if you ask me what I did on January fourteenth, twenty twelve, I would not be able to tell you. But if you showed me a picture of that dayeah, suddenly I'm in and I can probably remember the day roughly something to do at least where I was. I was like, oh, yeah, that that thing right. So those memories are in there, we just don't seem to be able to access them. My suspicion is when we have these like intuitive insights, it is basically our brains are. We've got all this data there and there's some kind of processing going on that we can't really access. But then sometimes when it's just necessary, it comes through. One of the biggest challenges in poker, frankly is knowing when to go with the maths what the math says, Like, you know, there have been many situations in poker where like, very clearly the math says, Okay, I have to fold my hand, I have to fold my hand. This is clearly I have a terrible hand, like given everything, but there's just something that my intuition in my gut is saying, they're bluffing you live. I know, you've got crap hand, You've got a call, you know, or vice versa. And the challenge is is knowing when to listen to your gut, because it's not always right. Yeah sure, and like certainly you know over my gut after ten years of playing was much better than two years of playing. There have been times where I've ignored the mats, I'm gone with my gut and it was absolutely right and I felt like a superhero. And there have been times when I've ignored the mats, gone with my gut, and I was dead wrong, and I felt like an absolute idiot and it's so so hard. And what I've found that so that there the fire thing for example, like and that's the other thing. I do think there's two degree some sort of knowledge stored almost you know, our nervous system goes through our body. Like I've been reading a bit about this idea of like somatic processing and like the body holding you know, but the body essentially holds knowledge in different ways. You can't get anything more viseral than running for your life from a fire. Right, So it wouldn't surprise me if like God knows what years of evolution and so on has been ingrained in our human bodies and this guy was able to switch off like his linear processing, you know, system to the logic whatever the.

Right? My theory is, and I don't know this for sure, and I don't think the science is at all accepted, but my theory is that just our brains are doing all kinds of you know, there's so much information going in all the time, and memories that are laid down. You know that if you ask me what I did on January fourteenth, twenty twelve, I would not be able to tell you. But if you showed me a picture of that dayeah, suddenly I'm in and I can probably remember the day roughly something to do at least where I was. I was like, oh, yeah, that that thing right. So those memories are in there, we just don't seem to be able to access them. My suspicion is when we have these like intuitive insights, it is basically our brains are. We've got all this data there and there's some kind of processing going on that we can't really access. But then sometimes when it's just necessary, it comes through. One of the biggest challenges in poker, frankly is knowing when to go with the maths what the math says, Like, you know, there have been many situations in poker where like, very clearly the math says, Okay, I have to fold my hand, I have to fold my hand. This is clearly I have a terrible hand, like given everything, but there's just something that my intuition in my gut is saying, they're bluffing you live. I know, you've got crap hand, You've got a call, you know, or vice versa. And the challenge is is knowing when to listen to your gut, because it's not always right. Yeah sure, and like certainly you know over my gut after ten years of playing was much better than two years of playing. There have been times where I've ignored the mats, I'm gone with my gut and it was absolutely right and I felt like a superhero. And there have been times when I've ignored the mats, gone with my gut, and I was dead wrong, and I felt like an absolute idiot and it's so so hard. And what I've found that so that there the fire thing for example, like and that's the other thing. I do think there's two degree some sort of knowledge stored almost you know, our nervous system goes through our body. Like I've been reading a bit about this idea of like somatic processing and like the body holding you know, but the body essentially holds knowledge in different ways. You can't get anything more viseral than running for your life from a fire. Right, So it wouldn't surprise me if like God knows what years of evolution and so on has been ingrained in our human bodies and this guy was able to switch off like his linear processing, you know, system to the logic whatever the.

Point is in panic.

Point is in panic.

I don't think our guts serve us very well. And I think we're always taught stay calm, stay calm, because even though you're not quote unquote thinking, but I think the ability to see patterns that you would narrowly be because I think that's where gut operates. You know, mathematics deals with if this then that right, it's linear, it's linear. Yeah, whereas our guts are nonlinear and can find connections that the mathematics will miss. If fire is going at this pace and this type of grass, you know, burns at this rate, you need to run at this pace outrun the fire. Nowhere's going to say just lie down. And I find this very interesting, Which is we become so reliant on computers now, which is the role of experience, the role of wisdom, the role of time, the role of gut I think is becoming underappreciated to a point where I think I think anybody who's of age and has been in the workforce for a while recognize that a young workforce that comes in is almost dismissive.

I don't think our guts serve us very well. And I think we're always taught stay calm, stay calm, because even though you're not quote unquote thinking, but I think the ability to see patterns that you would narrowly be because I think that's where gut operates. You know, mathematics deals with if this then that right, it's linear, it's linear. Yeah, whereas our guts are nonlinear and can find connections that the mathematics will miss. If fire is going at this pace and this type of grass, you know, burns at this rate, you need to run at this pace outrun the fire. Nowhere's going to say just lie down. And I find this very interesting, Which is we become so reliant on computers now, which is the role of experience, the role of wisdom, the role of time, the role of gut I think is becoming underappreciated to a point where I think I think anybody who's of age and has been in the workforce for a while recognize that a young workforce that comes in is almost dismissive.

Of age and experience.

Of age and experience.

You're so obsessed with game theory and competition. Just wax philosophical with me on this, like going from someone who's pathologically competitive who's now relaxed and no, you know.

You're so obsessed with game theory and competition. Just wax philosophical with me on this, like going from someone who's pathologically competitive who's now relaxed and no, you know.

I don't.

I don't.

I wouldn't got that thought.

I wouldn't got that thought.

Okay, fine, but you're dealing with the pathology. Yes, So what is your relationship with maths versus gut now?

Okay, fine, but you're dealing with the pathology. Yes, So what is your relationship with maths versus gut now?

Yeah, versus before?

Yeah, versus before?

So it's funny because in twenty eighteen I gave a TED talk where I talk about the role of it was like one of these six minutes super short ones, and I gave like three lessons that poker taught me. And the second lesson I talked about was don't overprivilege your gut instinct because I remember, you know, I was looking into it and every time I googled intuition or instinct, all of the memes are like, your gut is always right, never second guess it, follow your heart, it alone knows the truth. Everything.

So it's funny because in twenty eighteen I gave a TED talk where I talk about the role of it was like one of these six minutes super short ones, and I gave like three lessons that poker taught me. And the second lesson I talked about was don't overprivilege your gut instinct because I remember, you know, I was looking into it and every time I googled intuition or instinct, all of the memes are like, your gut is always right, never second guess it, follow your heart, it alone knows the truth. Everything.

Entrepreneurs that all the time. Yeah, it's a secret. My secret was I followed my.

Entrepreneurs that all the time. Yeah, it's a secret. My secret was I followed my.

Gut, yeah, right, right right, And it's every single meme was saying that, and there was no balance to it. And I was just like, well, this that's not my lift, you know, my lived experience in in poker. Sometimes my gut is right, but sometimes it's wrong. There's an error rate inherent in my in my intuition, and we should maybe talk about that. And I think this, I can imagine this is the case with others as well, and like, let's not you know, black and white this too much. So in that talk, basically I wouldn't go so far to say as I was disparaging of the gut, but A called for moderation.

Gut, yeah, right, right right, And it's every single meme was saying that, and there was no balance to it. And I was just like, well, this that's not my lift, you know, my lived experience in in poker. Sometimes my gut is right, but sometimes it's wrong. There's an error rate inherent in my in my intuition, and we should maybe talk about that. And I think this, I can imagine this is the case with others as well, and like, let's not you know, black and white this too much. So in that talk, basically I wouldn't go so far to say as I was disparaging of the gut, but A called for moderation.

You're raising a very very difficult problem, which is a failure rate, yes of our gut. So now we're left standing going, well, then when do I trust my gut? And what you're making a case for is well, trust the math at least you know what the failure rate is.

You're raising a very very difficult problem, which is a failure rate, yes of our gut. So now we're left standing going, well, then when do I trust my gut? And what you're making a case for is well, trust the math at least you know what the failure rate is.

That's basically the case I made in that talk. Now i'd say I've swung back in the other direction again and think that there is some degree of like I would even go so far to say, as I think there's value in some kind of shared knowledge going on that we can tap into. Like I even made the joke in the talk, it's not like our intuitions come from some magical source of inspiration, you know. And I got a laugh and so on. But now looking back on it, I'm like, you know what, I've had some moments where it literally felt magical of like, and once it became open to the idea that you can sort of almost tap into some borderline supernatural realm of in I've started having way more inspiration and insights.

That's basically the case I made in that talk. Now i'd say I've swung back in the other direction again and think that there is some degree of like I would even go so far to say, as I think there's value in some kind of shared knowledge going on that we can tap into. Like I even made the joke in the talk, it's not like our intuitions come from some magical source of inspiration, you know. And I got a laugh and so on. But now looking back on it, I'm like, you know what, I've had some moments where it literally felt magical of like, and once it became open to the idea that you can sort of almost tap into some borderline supernatural realm of in I've started having way more inspiration and insights.

Okay, I got to go down this rabbit hole, right. If we're playing a mathematical theory to the playing of poker, for example, and the more data you collect, the more accurate your statistical knowledge. In other words, you know the failure rates of this hand versus that hand, right, or this gameplay versus that gameplay, and you're talking about failure rates of gut. That means that if you have enough data, you can mitigate failure rates or even reduce failure rates. So it raises the question, how do we make our guts stronger? How do we make our guts better to reduce the failure rate?

Okay, I got to go down this rabbit hole, right. If we're playing a mathematical theory to the playing of poker, for example, and the more data you collect, the more accurate your statistical knowledge. In other words, you know the failure rates of this hand versus that hand, right, or this gameplay versus that gameplay, and you're talking about failure rates of gut. That means that if you have enough data, you can mitigate failure rates or even reduce failure rates. So it raises the question, how do we make our guts stronger? How do we make our guts better to reduce the failure rate?

So I think it starts with the same way we You know, everyone's been talking about cognitive biases now for the last twenty years. It's very popular topic. But they again, you know, to use the sort of dichotomy of thinking fast and slow. You know system one, system too, you know, gut logic, whatever you want to call it, just tell people what that is. Yeah, So thinking fast and slow was Daniel right, and he won a Nobel Prize for it. Basically, his research seemed to show that we have two modes of thinking. We have our system one, which is the gut that we're talking about. It's like if I was to say what's five plus five? You immediately know the answer is ten hopefully. But if I ask you, what's three hundred and twenty one plus seventy.

So I think it starts with the same way we You know, everyone's been talking about cognitive biases now for the last twenty years. It's very popular topic. But they again, you know, to use the sort of dichotomy of thinking fast and slow. You know system one, system too, you know, gut logic, whatever you want to call it, just tell people what that is. Yeah, So thinking fast and slow was Daniel right, and he won a Nobel Prize for it. Basically, his research seemed to show that we have two modes of thinking. We have our system one, which is the gut that we're talking about. It's like if I was to say what's five plus five? You immediately know the answer is ten hopefully. But if I ask you, what's three hundred and twenty one plus seventy.

Five, I have to think right.

Five, I have to think right.

And that is your system too. So again it's system too, is like the linear like voice in your head sort of will think through this plus this plus this, and system one is the thing that just like knows the answer. So in certain situations one is better for the other. And when you're playing poker, like what I actually would do back you know, I don't play poker anymore, but in the peak of my game, the habit I developed was to, you know, like say someone makes a big bet, I try and feel what my gut said in that, like okay, that was a bluff or okay, he's got a strong hand.

And that is your system too. So again it's system too, is like the linear like voice in your head sort of will think through this plus this plus this, and system one is the thing that just like knows the answer. So in certain situations one is better for the other. And when you're playing poker, like what I actually would do back you know, I don't play poker anymore, but in the peak of my game, the habit I developed was to, you know, like say someone makes a big bet, I try and feel what my gut said in that, like okay, that was a bluff or okay, he's got a strong hand.

You would practice the feeling gut yeah.

You would practice the feeling gut yeah.

And try and practice that and like, like what what was my what was my initial feeling as soon as the action was made, make a mental note of it, and then do the maths and so on, and actually do the logic. Be like, well, okay, when the king came on the turn, he thought for a while, and then you know he had to think before he bet, So that means that looking for but.

And try and practice that and like, like what what was my what was my initial feeling as soon as the action was made, make a mental note of it, and then do the maths and so on, and actually do the logic. Be like, well, okay, when the king came on the turn, he thought for a while, and then you know he had to think before he bet, So that means that looking for but.

Then you're looking for things that may not exist, and you could also they could also be screwing with your right, they could be delaying things to screw with your attempt to read their.

Then you're looking for things that may not exist, and you could also they could also be screwing with your right, they could be delaying things to screw with your attempt to read their.

But you can factor that in, you can f like that there's all of those like there's and there's errorrate with everything. But you know, you're just trying to sort of like sift through through the noise and find the signal. So then once you've done your sort of your your your thinking through of the problem, now you have to try and see, Okay, well does the mathematical conclusion line up with what the guts my initial was. Hopefully they're aligned. Great, it is when they're not is the tricky thing. But but the trouble is is that you know as we as we know, he has an errorrate, and that errorate comes from I think biases the same as like loss of version can make us do funny things with our thinking in the system too. It can also I think bias our gut to coming to certain conclusions.

But you can factor that in, you can f like that there's all of those like there's and there's errorrate with everything. But you know, you're just trying to sort of like sift through through the noise and find the signal. So then once you've done your sort of your your your thinking through of the problem, now you have to try and see, Okay, well does the mathematical conclusion line up with what the guts my initial was. Hopefully they're aligned. Great, it is when they're not is the tricky thing. But but the trouble is is that you know as we as we know, he has an errorrate, and that errorate comes from I think biases the same as like loss of version can make us do funny things with our thinking in the system too. It can also I think bias our gut to coming to certain conclusions.

What's so interesting about you and me is you are clearly a scientist, or at least you approach things with a scientific brain. I'm an artist, right, I'm just like chaos happy let's see where it goes. Find a pattern.

What's so interesting about you and me is you are clearly a scientist, or at least you approach things with a scientific brain. I'm an artist, right, I'm just like chaos happy let's see where it goes. Find a pattern.

Write.

Write.

And so when I think about how to make my gut stronger, my intuition, huh says, fill it. Fill it with seemingly disconnected information. So, for example, if I'm trying to make my gut stronger, let's say I'm a poker player, so I want to fill my gut. It's not by playing more poker. I'm gonna do that anyway. I'm going to study the tables anyway. I'm gonna go do things that make no sense. I'm going to go to the zoo and look at gorillas. I'm gonna go to a dance performance. I'm gonna go to rehearsal. I'm gonna go watch a carographer and how he makes a piece of dance, and watch the answers interact. I'm going to sit in a coffee shop and watch people interact, talk to each other, how they talk to the barista unbeknownst to me. See all these subtleties of human behavior. One of my favorite things to do to this day. I love going to a bar or a restaurant and guessing when I look around the restaurant and bar, the couples are they on a first date, a second date, Are they a couple already? It's really fun to do with just body language. Unbeknownst to me, quote unquote, what I'm studying is human behavior. What I'm studying are tells. What I'm studying is discomfort. What I'm studying is confidence. What I'm studying is in security. What I'm studying is hope, desires, dreams as manifested in a funny twitch or a mirroring of our body language. That's the other fun thing, which is when they are in an early first or second date, is it going well? And it's actually really easy to tell. I'll just give you a quick, really funny one. I was at for dinner with a friend and there's a couple sitting next to us. I could actually hear the conversation, so it was abundantly clear they were on a first date. And you can tell them the Boddy language. They were getting along great, you know, like they were laughing at the same time, they were mirroring each other's body language. They were both leaning in. It was like really magical, right to watch. They wanted to look something up, No problem, he pulled out his phone.

And so when I think about how to make my gut stronger, my intuition, huh says, fill it. Fill it with seemingly disconnected information. So, for example, if I'm trying to make my gut stronger, let's say I'm a poker player, so I want to fill my gut. It's not by playing more poker. I'm gonna do that anyway. I'm going to study the tables anyway. I'm gonna go do things that make no sense. I'm going to go to the zoo and look at gorillas. I'm gonna go to a dance performance. I'm gonna go to rehearsal. I'm gonna go watch a carographer and how he makes a piece of dance, and watch the answers interact. I'm going to sit in a coffee shop and watch people interact, talk to each other, how they talk to the barista unbeknownst to me. See all these subtleties of human behavior. One of my favorite things to do to this day. I love going to a bar or a restaurant and guessing when I look around the restaurant and bar, the couples are they on a first date, a second date, Are they a couple already? It's really fun to do with just body language. Unbeknownst to me, quote unquote, what I'm studying is human behavior. What I'm studying are tells. What I'm studying is discomfort. What I'm studying is confidence. What I'm studying is in security. What I'm studying is hope, desires, dreams as manifested in a funny twitch or a mirroring of our body language. That's the other fun thing, which is when they are in an early first or second date, is it going well? And it's actually really easy to tell. I'll just give you a quick, really funny one. I was at for dinner with a friend and there's a couple sitting next to us. I could actually hear the conversation, so it was abundantly clear they were on a first date. And you can tell them the Boddy language. They were getting along great, you know, like they were laughing at the same time, they were mirroring each other's body language. They were both leaning in. It was like really magical, right to watch. They wanted to look something up, No problem, he pulled out his phone.

No problem.

No problem.

They're both in on it. He types something in, they look it up, and then he sort of sends a quick text. You know, you can see it the interaction, and then puts the phone on the table, and all of a sudden, the body language completely changes. Her arms are folded, she's now leaning back. They're not laughing at the same time anymore. And he still thinks the date's going great, but the body line, the whole dynam is completely changed. I'm praying, I'm like, I hope she goes there, Please go to the bathroom. She gets up and goes to the bathroom, and I lean over to him and go, do you want a little input on your date? And he looks at me and goes, what I'm like, put the phone away. Do you not see what's going on here? You would get alonge great, and you've completely screwed it up because you pulled your idiot phone out and you've destroyed everything. Put your damn phone away.

They're both in on it. He types something in, they look it up, and then he sort of sends a quick text. You know, you can see it the interaction, and then puts the phone on the table, and all of a sudden, the body language completely changes. Her arms are folded, she's now leaning back. They're not laughing at the same time anymore. And he still thinks the date's going great, but the body line, the whole dynam is completely changed. I'm praying, I'm like, I hope she goes there, Please go to the bathroom. She gets up and goes to the bathroom, and I lean over to him and go, do you want a little input on your date? And he looks at me and goes, what I'm like, put the phone away. Do you not see what's going on here? You would get alonge great, and you've completely screwed it up because you pulled your idiot phone out and you've destroyed everything. Put your damn phone away.

The date will go better, you know?

The date will go better, you know?

And did he?

And did he?

Yes, he puts its phone away, and all of a sudden she comes back, and like, the whole thing works again. But the point is is, like, it's those subtleties what I'm doing is making my gut stronger, right, And so I think the way that we make our guts stronger is by doing things that make us uncomfortable or put us in unfamiliar situations. And you said this because all that gets stored somewhere. Yes, and our bodies and our minds have the ability to recall that if it matters. And so I think there is a way to make a stronger gut, which is go out and do things that have nothing to do with your job.

Yes, he puts its phone away, and all of a sudden she comes back, and like, the whole thing works again. But the point is is, like, it's those subtleties what I'm doing is making my gut stronger, right, And so I think the way that we make our guts stronger is by doing things that make us uncomfortable or put us in unfamiliar situations. And you said this because all that gets stored somewhere. Yes, and our bodies and our minds have the ability to recall that if it matters. And so I think there is a way to make a stronger gut, which is go out and do things that have nothing to do with your job.

Certainly with anything that's reading people body language. Then it is all kinds of information is useful.

Certainly with anything that's reading people body language. Then it is all kinds of information is useful.

I think all kinds of information is useful, period. It's not about reading people.

I think all kinds of information is useful, period. It's not about reading people.

That's my interest. That's what I look for.

That's my interest. That's what I look for.

If you're in manufacturing, I know what you do. You read all the manufacturing trades, which means all you're doing is reading about what somebody else has already done that you didn't think of, or they're ahead of you. So the best you can do is copy them and be a follower at best. How that stopped reading your own trades and read the trains of other organizations and find out how other companies are solving problems that may show up in your industry that nobody else has seen or thought of.

If you're in manufacturing, I know what you do. You read all the manufacturing trades, which means all you're doing is reading about what somebody else has already done that you didn't think of, or they're ahead of you. So the best you can do is copy them and be a follower at best. How that stopped reading your own trades and read the trains of other organizations and find out how other companies are solving problems that may show up in your industry that nobody else has seen or thought of.

Well it certainly giving space as well is incredibly important if you're struggling with an issue. I mean, most of the famous breakthroughs of scientists have been when they actually the struggle, struggling, struggling, struggling, but then they take take a break and they actually go and do something else. The classic light bulb.

Well it certainly giving space as well is incredibly important if you're struggling with an issue. I mean, most of the famous breakthroughs of scientists have been when they actually the struggle, struggling, struggling, struggling, but then they take take a break and they actually go and do something else. The classic light bulb.

Moment Eureka, Literally he's in the frickin' bath day exactly.

Moment Eureka, Literally he's in the frickin' bath day exactly.

Yeah, your intuition, it can't really work all the while you're engaged in system too, and you're doing the linear thinking and so on.

Yeah, your intuition, it can't really work all the while you're engaged in system too, and you're doing the linear thinking and so on.

You were a reformed pathological competitor. Competition and winning has been a theme.

You were a reformed pathological competitor. Competition and winning has been a theme.

Throughout your life.

Throughout your life.

You are now on an exploration to dispel the myth of the zero sum game that is oft applied where there is no zero sum, and to find more win win opportunities, which sounds like world peace, you know not, And I mean I mean that favorable. I mean I'm not being cynical, like, if everything goes according to the way you're talking, then that is the eventual that is the eventual outcome, hopefully hopefully. Yeah, So what insight can you give us to help us better understand competition and how it can be healthy and how we can set ourselves on a path that we can have more win wins in our life.

You are now on an exploration to dispel the myth of the zero sum game that is oft applied where there is no zero sum, and to find more win win opportunities, which sounds like world peace, you know not, And I mean I mean that favorable. I mean I'm not being cynical, like, if everything goes according to the way you're talking, then that is the eventual that is the eventual outcome, hopefully hopefully. Yeah, So what insight can you give us to help us better understand competition and how it can be healthy and how we can set ourselves on a path that we can have more win wins in our life.

Yeah, So, the main thing I've been musing on over the last year or so is this concept of what's called like a Moloch trap. Molloch was this biblical demon. Supposedly there was this awful Canaanite cult who wanted to win out war so badly they would literally sacrifice I think they held most deer to this burning effigy of this this this god called Molloch. They've sacrificed their children. And it as this story that's obviously passed down through millennia as a kind of warning of like over optimizing at winning at a narrow metric, a narrow goal, and through like popular culture over the last few decades. There was an amazing blog called Meditations on Moloch by Scott Alexander, and I remember reading particularly that blog and it was just like a light bulb moment. It was like borderline religious awakening for me reading this, because I was like, this thing, this force of over optimizing for a narrow metric, which makes you sacrifice all the other things that actually are important in order to win. This is the thing that is actually threatening our very existence on this planet.

Yeah, So, the main thing I've been musing on over the last year or so is this concept of what's called like a Moloch trap. Molloch was this biblical demon. Supposedly there was this awful Canaanite cult who wanted to win out war so badly they would literally sacrifice I think they held most deer to this burning effigy of this this this god called Molloch. They've sacrificed their children. And it as this story that's obviously passed down through millennia as a kind of warning of like over optimizing at winning at a narrow metric, a narrow goal, and through like popular culture over the last few decades. There was an amazing blog called Meditations on Moloch by Scott Alexander, and I remember reading particularly that blog and it was just like a light bulb moment. It was like borderline religious awakening for me reading this, because I was like, this thing, this force of over optimizing for a narrow metric, which makes you sacrifice all the other things that actually are important in order to win. This is the thing that is actually threatening our very existence on this planet.

So give me a practical example, a contemporary practical example of a malok trap, Like in a stadium.

So give me a practical example, a contemporary practical example of a malok trap, Like in a stadium.

So you go to a rock concert or something, and everyone sitting down and has, you know, the view they have, but a few people down the front want a slightly better view, so they stand up. That forces the people behind them to stand up and people behind them, until everyone is now standing up, and because it's so loud, there's no way for everyone to sort of now coordinate to sit back down again. So everyone's stuck standing for the rest of the show, even whether they want to or not, and no one's got a better view than they had before because everyone is just standing. It might even be worse exactly, So everyone is now worse off than before, but there is no easy way for everyone to coordinate and sit back down again, so they're trapped in this like lower order state. Another a good example I like of this is these beauty filters that are like now prolific everywhere on social media. For a while, I was playing like the Instagram game trying to grow grow, given up on that bloody platform. But you know, I noticed that when I would post pictures, a if I posted a picture that was like more scantily clad than clothed, that would get more likes. But then when these beauty filters started it appearing, where like with one click it would just like tweak your features in really subtle ways, but very effective ways. If I used those, I would get more likes. But the thing is is that these filters, they would make you hate the original picture. Like, you know, maybe I would upload a picture that I really liked of myself, but they're not the filter to make it just a little bit better, and now I no longer like the original. It makes me feel ugly in fact.

So you go to a rock concert or something, and everyone sitting down and has, you know, the view they have, but a few people down the front want a slightly better view, so they stand up. That forces the people behind them to stand up and people behind them, until everyone is now standing up, and because it's so loud, there's no way for everyone to sort of now coordinate to sit back down again. So everyone's stuck standing for the rest of the show, even whether they want to or not, and no one's got a better view than they had before because everyone is just standing. It might even be worse exactly, So everyone is now worse off than before, but there is no easy way for everyone to coordinate and sit back down again, so they're trapped in this like lower order state. Another a good example I like of this is these beauty filters that are like now prolific everywhere on social media. For a while, I was playing like the Instagram game trying to grow grow, given up on that bloody platform. But you know, I noticed that when I would post pictures, a if I posted a picture that was like more scantily clad than clothed, that would get more likes. But then when these beauty filters started it appearing, where like with one click it would just like tweak your features in really subtle ways, but very effective ways. If I used those, I would get more likes. But the thing is is that these filters, they would make you hate the original picture. Like, you know, maybe I would upload a picture that I really liked of myself, but they're not the filter to make it just a little bit better, and now I no longer like the original. It makes me feel ugly in fact.

And you're doing this under experimental conditions and it's still head of psychological absolutely.

And you're doing this under experimental conditions and it's still head of psychological absolutely.

Yeah. Well so A I was partly doing it for an experiment, but b I was like, well, I'll try posting some of these because I do want to grow my Instagram and this does seem to be more effective. And then I started thinking, well, if I'm doing it, probably everyone else is doing it too. So there are these massive incentives, these short term incentives to get you know, short term get ahead to use these things. But long term, it's not only bad for the individual using it, but it's bad for the whole as it's encouraging everyone else to do it too. It's also making people not know what they can trust. It just creates this like sea of like inauthenticity and like dopamine hijacking just to win at this short term, narrow game of getting more likes and.

Yeah. Well so A I was partly doing it for an experiment, but b I was like, well, I'll try posting some of these because I do want to grow my Instagram and this does seem to be more effective. And then I started thinking, well, if I'm doing it, probably everyone else is doing it too. So there are these massive incentives, these short term incentives to get you know, short term get ahead to use these things. But long term, it's not only bad for the individual using it, but it's bad for the whole as it's encouraging everyone else to do it too. It's also making people not know what they can trust. It just creates this like sea of like inauthenticity and like dopamine hijacking just to win at this short term, narrow game of getting more likes and.

Follow it have translated my words, so just so I'm clear. A molk trap basically, when you fall into a mallk trap, you've lost the plot. You've no longer understand the infinite game, and you're now so obsessed with finite game. They have to win at this thing at any cost.

Follow it have translated my words, so just so I'm clear. A molk trap basically, when you fall into a mallk trap, you've lost the plot. You've no longer understand the infinite game, and you're now so obsessed with finite game. They have to win at this thing at any cost.

Yes, you end up sacrificing you other really.

Yes, you end up sacrificing you other really.

Sacrificing other things, sometimes your own mental health, not realizing that it's happening because you're watching that short term arbitrary. Very often Metric go up the scary thing about a Molk trap, and I think you're one hundred percent right that exists. It's one thing for a person to.

Sacrificing other things, sometimes your own mental health, not realizing that it's happening because you're watching that short term arbitrary. Very often Metric go up the scary thing about a Molk trap, and I think you're one hundred percent right that exists. It's one thing for a person to.

Fall into a molk trap.

Fall into a molk trap.

But what I think is even more insidious is when entire companies or corporate cultures.

But what I think is even more insidious is when entire companies or corporate cultures.

Fall into a Molk trap.

Fall into a Molk trap.

Or nations or nations fall in civilizations where the incentive structures are gaming our dopamine systems, they're incentivizing behavior that encourages everybody.

Or nations or nations fall in civilizations where the incentive structures are gaming our dopamine systems, they're incentivizing behavior that encourages everybody.

To get into the Molk trap.

To get into the Molk trap.

The outcome is putting chemicals in food or increasing the price of an essential drug one percent, fifteen hundred percent, so you can hit some number and the ripple effects are at the minimum uncomfortable, but at worst really devastating.

The outcome is putting chemicals in food or increasing the price of an essential drug one percent, fifteen hundred percent, so you can hit some number and the ripple effects are at the minimum uncomfortable, but at worst really devastating.

Another phrasing you can use is negative sum games. In theory, you know, a game is a constrained little thing, but in reality there's always externalities. The question is are the externalities making the world better or making the world worse? And like in the Beauty Filters example, you know everyone's playing the influencer game, but you know on net it's probably making the world worse. The fact that these this technology exists, that's in you know, everyone's incentivized to use. Another example is the same Molok trap that the media are currently currently in. You know, especially since I mean they've always been playing the sort of if it bleeds, it leads game, you know, amplifying negative, particularly violent things more than probably they deserve to get ratings. But ever since you know, now basically the competition dial has been turned up to the maximum with the Internet, you know, new media, et cetera. Old legacy media companies that used to basically, you know, they had a very cushy, cushy life are now under pressure to do whatever they can to stay afloat. And that right now, the most rewarding thing is like play into the culture wars. Oh, what's our user based our readership? Our oral democrats are readership or all Republicans? What can we do to rile them up to keep them coming back for more and more? And what it's the same like junk food type thing. It's just happens to be news junk food. That's Mollock's game. Mollich loves it. You know, there's only one person that's benefiting from that, and that's Mollok.

Another phrasing you can use is negative sum games. In theory, you know, a game is a constrained little thing, but in reality there's always externalities. The question is are the externalities making the world better or making the world worse? And like in the Beauty Filters example, you know everyone's playing the influencer game, but you know on net it's probably making the world worse. The fact that these this technology exists, that's in you know, everyone's incentivized to use. Another example is the same Molok trap that the media are currently currently in. You know, especially since I mean they've always been playing the sort of if it bleeds, it leads game, you know, amplifying negative, particularly violent things more than probably they deserve to get ratings. But ever since you know, now basically the competition dial has been turned up to the maximum with the Internet, you know, new media, et cetera. Old legacy media companies that used to basically, you know, they had a very cushy, cushy life are now under pressure to do whatever they can to stay afloat. And that right now, the most rewarding thing is like play into the culture wars. Oh, what's our user based our readership? Our oral democrats are readership or all Republicans? What can we do to rile them up to keep them coming back for more and more? And what it's the same like junk food type thing. It's just happens to be news junk food. That's Mollock's game. Mollich loves it. You know, there's only one person that's benefiting from that, and that's Mollok.

It's the demon eating your babies.

It's the demon eating your babies.

Is the only one enjoying this exactly.

Is the only one enjoying this exactly.

Most of the journalists, they're not particularly happy about this either. Even the good faith ones are kind of stuck in this same game because if they don't do it, then their company is going to fail.

Most of the journalists, they're not particularly happy about this either. Even the good faith ones are kind of stuck in this same game because if they don't do it, then their company is going to fail.

What you're talking about is awful because what happens when it is full blown ethical fading, which is where people can then rationalize their behavior inside them.

What you're talking about is awful because what happens when it is full blown ethical fading, which is where people can then rationalize their behavior inside them.

So they're in the Molok trap.

So they're in the Molok trap.

They're doing these things, but then they say things like, well everybody else is doing it.

They're doing these things, but then they say things like, well everybody else is doing it.

Might as well.

Might as well.

Anyway, if I don't do it, somebody else is going to do it. You know, I have to do it to get ahead. This is what my company asks me to do. I mean, what choice do I have or my personal favorite?

Anyway, if I don't do it, somebody else is going to do it. You know, I have to do it to get ahead. This is what my company asks me to do. I mean, what choice do I have or my personal favorite?

It's the system.

It's the system.

And it's interesting because there is some truth to that, right, Like the system is screwed up, the incentives whack, you know, by it optimizing for the short term, it creates these bad outcomes. But it also for Molok to really get a stranglehold on a situation, it also needs the individuals to do the short term selfish thing. So there's two points of failure, which also means there's two points of success as well. Like a like redesign the system. That's probably the easiest thing, if possible. Redesign a system so that the incentives acting on the individual line to the whole.

And it's interesting because there is some truth to that, right, Like the system is screwed up, the incentives whack, you know, by it optimizing for the short term, it creates these bad outcomes. But it also for Molok to really get a stranglehold on a situation, it also needs the individuals to do the short term selfish thing. So there's two points of failure, which also means there's two points of success as well. Like a like redesign the system. That's probably the easiest thing, if possible. Redesign a system so that the incentives acting on the individual line to the whole.

So we have to have the conversation even for a few minutes. Then how do you get out of a Malok trap? Let's stick with some of our analogies here. So in the stadium, because I have an idea here, but I'm curious what you think. In the stadium, how do we get everybody to sit down for the greater good?

So we have to have the conversation even for a few minutes. Then how do you get out of a Malok trap? Let's stick with some of our analogies here. So in the stadium, because I have an idea here, but I'm curious what you think. In the stadium, how do we get everybody to sit down for the greater good?

Right? So there's one route, which is God's I view, have some kind of coordination mechanism i e. A tannoy system to go, okay, everyone, look, we're all standing up. We don't want this anymore, do we. People at the front, please don't stand up again, because look what you did. Basically central coordination, some centralized power structure to be able to say, look, guys, this is the rule. Sit down. The show's not going to go on into ever and sitting down, okay, good, now we can carry on. That's one way. The other way would be for everyone to sort of enough pockets of people to either become simultaneously enlightened, so it'll be like, well, this is stupid, you know what, I'm going to sit down completely. I won't even see the show, but maybe my effects will have a ripple effect. So some people to do like an actual sacrifice, completely sacrifice and essentially quit the game. That's what you're doing by sitting down, and now you can only see backs. You're quitting the game of trying to see the show. That's the show of competing to see the show. You're like just quitting the game entirely, but it's actually coming at a real hit because now you're not going to see anything. But you're like, I'm just going to do this out of like moral indignation. In theory, if enough people sort of do that, that might have a ripple effect to me. That's the other way. Now, I don't know which one is more actual plot. You know, if we now sort of transpose this concept onto.