I started to realize that not being an expert isn't a liability.

I started to realize that not being an expert isn't a liability.

It's a real guest.

It's a real guest.

If we don't know something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

If we don't know something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

If you can die before you die, then you can really live.

If you can die before you die, then you can really live.

There's a wisdom at death's door.

There's a wisdom at death's door.

I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there was no internet.

I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there was no internet.

I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.

I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.

Welcome to You Need Therapy.

Welcome to You Need Therapy.

Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host. And quick reminder before we get into the good stuff today, because we have some good stuff today that although I'm a therapist, and although this podcast is called You Need Therapy, this does not serve as a replacement or substitute for any actual mental health services.

Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host. And quick reminder before we get into the good stuff today, because we have some good stuff today that although I'm a therapist, and although this podcast is called You Need Therapy, this does not serve as a replacement or substitute for any actual mental health services.

However, it still can be helpful.

However, it still can be helpful.

So now that we have that out of the way, I get to introduce part two of the conversation that I had with singer songwriter JP Sachs.

So now that we have that out of the way, I get to introduce part two of the conversation that I had with singer songwriter JP Sachs.

It's going to be just as good as last week.

It's going to be just as good as last week.

And I know you guys loved the episode last week and some of the things we talked about. We expand on some of those topics about breakups and heartbreak and all of that, and we also dive into some more topics and talk about masculinity, what it means to be a protector and all of the things. So if you have not listened to part one, press pause, go listen to part one, and then you can listen to part two, because this was the way that the actual conversation happened. So I just think it would make more sense for you that way. And I want to remind you guys that if you are new to JP Sacks and one you're welcome, but two, you need to follow him on Instagram. His Instagram handle is at JP Sachs sa XE. He has a song that came out a couple of weeks ago called When You Think Of Me, and then he also has very timely a song coming out this Friday, called the good parts, and we talk about some of that in the conversation. So you're gonna want to definitely go follow him on Instagram and if you click on the link in his bio, you can pre save that song and you can, in the meantime go listen to When You Think of Me because it is such a good song. So thank you JP for continuing this conversation, and thank you guys for continuing to listen to this conversation. I will talk to you guys on Wednesday for couch Talks, but in the meantime, here is part two of my conversation with JP Sacks. I do have a question about for you, really actually as a man, what is it like? Woman asked this generally, Then I'm going to get a little bit deeper. So what's it like just in our world being a man who has is this is an assumption, but I assume that you have access to your feelings and you're pretty emotionally literate.

And I know you guys loved the episode last week and some of the things we talked about. We expand on some of those topics about breakups and heartbreak and all of that, and we also dive into some more topics and talk about masculinity, what it means to be a protector and all of the things. So if you have not listened to part one, press pause, go listen to part one, and then you can listen to part two, because this was the way that the actual conversation happened. So I just think it would make more sense for you that way. And I want to remind you guys that if you are new to JP Sacks and one you're welcome, but two, you need to follow him on Instagram. His Instagram handle is at JP Sachs sa XE. He has a song that came out a couple of weeks ago called When You Think Of Me, and then he also has very timely a song coming out this Friday, called the good parts, and we talk about some of that in the conversation. So you're gonna want to definitely go follow him on Instagram and if you click on the link in his bio, you can pre save that song and you can, in the meantime go listen to When You Think of Me because it is such a good song. So thank you JP for continuing this conversation, and thank you guys for continuing to listen to this conversation. I will talk to you guys on Wednesday for couch Talks, but in the meantime, here is part two of my conversation with JP Sacks. I do have a question about for you, really actually as a man, what is it like? Woman asked this generally, Then I'm going to get a little bit deeper. So what's it like just in our world being a man who has is this is an assumption, but I assume that you have access to your feelings and you're pretty emotionally literate.

So what is it like for.

So what is it like for.

You to be a man in this kind of toxic masculinity driven society who has feelings, who has access to them, who talks about them, who writes about them, who sings about them. What is that like for you? Is it all sunshine and rainbows? Is there a light in a dark side?

You to be a man in this kind of toxic masculinity driven society who has feelings, who has access to them, who talks about them, who writes about them, who sings about them. What is that like for you? Is it all sunshine and rainbows? Is there a light in a dark side?

I think I arrived at the analysis of my emotions in a.

I think I arrived at the analysis of my emotions in a.

Number of ways.

Number of ways.

I'm not sure I actually feel my emotions nearly as much as one would expect as someone who works with the jurisdiction of emotions. I think part of the reason that I developed the skill of articulating my emotions and songs was because I didn't feel like I knew how to actually embrace or feel them for a number of reasons. I mean, I think that's like a lot of that is growing up with an alcoholic parent, like my adolescence, I learned conflict resolution in communication as an only child with two parents a lot of the time under the influence of something. My mom really struggled with alcoholism in my teenage years. My dad is best dad in the world, but can be rather conflict avoidant. So that dynamic was me getting home from school at five pm to just irreverently drunk mom, who I learned as a twelve year old that if I said the wrong thing that she would break shit or hit me or leave, and she could be gone for three days.

I'm not sure I actually feel my emotions nearly as much as one would expect as someone who works with the jurisdiction of emotions. I think part of the reason that I developed the skill of articulating my emotions and songs was because I didn't feel like I knew how to actually embrace or feel them for a number of reasons. I mean, I think that's like a lot of that is growing up with an alcoholic parent, like my adolescence, I learned conflict resolution in communication as an only child with two parents a lot of the time under the influence of something. My mom really struggled with alcoholism in my teenage years. My dad is best dad in the world, but can be rather conflict avoidant. So that dynamic was me getting home from school at five pm to just irreverently drunk mom, who I learned as a twelve year old that if I said the wrong thing that she would break shit or hit me or leave, and she could be gone for three days.

And we wouldn't know what was going on.

And we wouldn't know what was going on.

But if I said the right thing and if I treated her with the if I went about it exactly the right way, then I could have like silly, drunk fun mom. But that could like flip like I could. It could be one word and that would flip. But I would make it a game for myself. I kind of would get home and it was like a challenge, and my dad would tell me, like, you know, you have to be the mature one when I was like eleven twelve, because you know she's not going to be so you have to be the mature one. And obviously there's an intense emotional reaction as a kid to seeing your parent like that. But I couldn't let myself feel that because if I the worst thing I could say was something about how it affected me, like that would be the most triggering thing for her. So that was really my first experience with navigating emotionally tumultuous moments was having to channel my full emotional experience through an intellectual lens to make sure I said things in the right way. And I think that did two things to me as a young adult. It honed my ability to articulate my emotions even when they were very intense. It also made it very very hard for me to have any sort of honest emotional reaction without intellectualizing first. So that's like one of the challenges of my life. But it's also one of the blessings in my life because I think it frames my entire profession as a.

But if I said the right thing and if I treated her with the if I went about it exactly the right way, then I could have like silly, drunk fun mom. But that could like flip like I could. It could be one word and that would flip. But I would make it a game for myself. I kind of would get home and it was like a challenge, and my dad would tell me, like, you know, you have to be the mature one when I was like eleven twelve, because you know she's not going to be so you have to be the mature one. And obviously there's an intense emotional reaction as a kid to seeing your parent like that. But I couldn't let myself feel that because if I the worst thing I could say was something about how it affected me, like that would be the most triggering thing for her. So that was really my first experience with navigating emotionally tumultuous moments was having to channel my full emotional experience through an intellectual lens to make sure I said things in the right way. And I think that did two things to me as a young adult. It honed my ability to articulate my emotions even when they were very intense. It also made it very very hard for me to have any sort of honest emotional reaction without intellectualizing first. So that's like one of the challenges of my life. But it's also one of the blessings in my life because I think it frames my entire profession as a.

Songwrit Yeah, and one, thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate that.

Songwrit Yeah, and one, thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate that.

And also thank you for sharing that just in the sense that there I am have as a therapist, assuming something about somebody and thinking that it comes from one space when we really have no idea the experiences we've had that led us to be the humans that we are. And so you have this amazing skill of being able to write and articulate feelings that people can also then you know, feel with you and feel connected. But it comes from this like actually, I'm going to use this word and I don't know if it's going to fit, so if it doesn't, just let me know. It comes from the traumatic experience. So it comes from a situation that we might not have chosen and talk about like a weird dissonance. That's a weird dissonance.

And also thank you for sharing that just in the sense that there I am have as a therapist, assuming something about somebody and thinking that it comes from one space when we really have no idea the experiences we've had that led us to be the humans that we are. And so you have this amazing skill of being able to write and articulate feelings that people can also then you know, feel with you and feel connected. But it comes from this like actually, I'm going to use this word and I don't know if it's going to fit, so if it doesn't, just let me know. It comes from the traumatic experience. So it comes from a situation that we might not have chosen and talk about like a weird dissonance. That's a weird dissonance.

Yeah, I mean so to speak to the rest of your question also about like how that ties into masculinity, I think, well, firstly, I think people falsely equate being able to express your emotions in a song with vulnerability. I don't personally think there's anything that vulnerable about the songs because I have spent months crafting exactly how I want to present those emotions. And to me, my definition of vulnerable is allowing yourself to exist without all of the editing, and that is highly highly edited emotional content. Like I spent months crafting exactly how I want to articulate the emotion that I am fitting into a song. Now as a person like that absolutely is rude. In I had to when I was, you know, in my early twenties, in trying to unlearn the conflict resolution that I had developed through my mom. In order to feel really anything, I needed to figure out how to describe it to myself. I need to describe it to myself in order to feel it. So yeah, now I describe my emotions too through songs in a way that then allows other people to feel it. But it's really just me trying to show myself how to feel it, and other people feel their emotions similarly to the way I do. So that works in people who listen to my music, But the area in my life where I'm vulnerable is definitely not my music, because even though they are about sensitive things, are about personal things. I've been so thoughtful about how i want to craft it that it feels safe.

Yeah, I mean so to speak to the rest of your question also about like how that ties into masculinity, I think, well, firstly, I think people falsely equate being able to express your emotions in a song with vulnerability. I don't personally think there's anything that vulnerable about the songs because I have spent months crafting exactly how I want to present those emotions. And to me, my definition of vulnerable is allowing yourself to exist without all of the editing, and that is highly highly edited emotional content. Like I spent months crafting exactly how I want to articulate the emotion that I am fitting into a song. Now as a person like that absolutely is rude. In I had to when I was, you know, in my early twenties, in trying to unlearn the conflict resolution that I had developed through my mom. In order to feel really anything, I needed to figure out how to describe it to myself. I need to describe it to myself in order to feel it. So yeah, now I describe my emotions too through songs in a way that then allows other people to feel it. But it's really just me trying to show myself how to feel it, and other people feel their emotions similarly to the way I do. So that works in people who listen to my music, But the area in my life where I'm vulnerable is definitely not my music, because even though they are about sensitive things, are about personal things. I've been so thoughtful about how i want to craft it that it feels safe.

It feels intentional.

It feels intentional.

I was going to ask you, like, is there any like regret in like writing a song about something and then you have to like sing it all the time, and maybe it's about a time that you don't want to go back and be in. I can make the assumption I might be wrong that, like maybe not, because of what you are just expressing of, Like, this is a pretty crafted thing, and I'm I'm sharing this in a way that actually doesn't feel that vulnerable to me, although I mean not that it's dishonest, right right, Like it's difference dishonest.

I was going to ask you, like, is there any like regret in like writing a song about something and then you have to like sing it all the time, and maybe it's about a time that you don't want to go back and be in. I can make the assumption I might be wrong that, like maybe not, because of what you are just expressing of, Like, this is a pretty crafted thing, and I'm I'm sharing this in a way that actually doesn't feel that vulnerable to me, although I mean not that it's dishonest, right right, Like it's difference dishonest.

It gives me anxiety because I know, I know that I'm that not just for other people, but for myself.

It gives me anxiety because I know, I know that I'm that not just for other people, but for myself.

I am time capsuling.

I am time capsuling.

An emotion, a feeling that is going to represent for me personally, like an era of my life, on an era of what it felt like to be myself in a moment. Yeah, so I want to accurately depict that for myself.

An emotion, a feeling that is going to represent for me personally, like an era of my life, on an era of what it felt like to be myself in a moment. Yeah, so I want to accurately depict that for myself.

Where do you feel the most vulnerable? Like when do you feel the most like? This is the hard, tough stuff.

Where do you feel the most vulnerable? Like when do you feel the most like? This is the hard, tough stuff.

Yeah, it's the moments that I don't get to that I have to exist without really thinking through how I'm going to exist yet just allowing myself to be unedited, unfiltered, unprepared.

Yeah, it's the moments that I don't get to that I have to exist without really thinking through how I'm going to exist yet just allowing myself to be unedited, unfiltered, unprepared.

What about it like live shows?

What about it like live shows?

I mean I love live shows. I find the very stimulus. It's like a conversation, but you know, you get the added charisma that you're given by the how stimulating it is to be on stage in front of a lot of people. Okay, Like there's a personality I get to have on stage that it's very hard to stimulate anywhere else because of just the chemical implications of being in front of that many people.

I mean I love live shows. I find the very stimulus. It's like a conversation, but you know, you get the added charisma that you're given by the how stimulating it is to be on stage in front of a lot of people. Okay, Like there's a personality I get to have on stage that it's very hard to stimulate anywhere else because of just the chemical implications of being in front of that many people.

Yeah, that's fair.

Yeah, that's fair.

I was going to say at the Nashville show that I was at, I don't know if you remember this, because I don't know if you remember everything that happens on stage, But I don't remember what song it was. But there was a song that like you had like the audience sing part of it, and then you ended up singing like the same verse a couple of times, and I wouldn't even I don't even want to call this a mess up because the way that you orchestrated it was like, well, this is kind of like the coolest moment of the show. Like everybody was laughing. It felt like everybody was in it together. You felt like a real person, even though that was like you were closer to us than some venues that you might play in, but like you actually felt like a real person.

I was going to say at the Nashville show that I was at, I don't know if you remember this, because I don't know if you remember everything that happens on stage, But I don't remember what song it was. But there was a song that like you had like the audience sing part of it, and then you ended up singing like the same verse a couple of times, and I wouldn't even I don't even want to call this a mess up because the way that you orchestrated it was like, well, this is kind of like the coolest moment of the show. Like everybody was laughing. It felt like everybody was in it together. You felt like a real person, even though that was like you were closer to us than some venues that you might play in, but like you actually felt like a real person.

You weren't robotic.

You weren't robotic.

So does that feel vulnerable or is that a space where you like, I feel like I'm alive and I can be myself and I can be messy even though I'm performing.

So does that feel vulnerable or is that a space where you like, I feel like I'm alive and I can be myself and I can be messy even though I'm performing.

To be honest, I don't exactly know.

To be honest, I don't exactly know.

Maybe I falsely equate vulnerability with discomfort, So it feels weird to call that vulnerability because I feel very comfortable in that space. But maybe that's like a false pretense. I love that stuff, like I love when the shows are spontaneous, indifferent and exist in a way that they're not going to exist in any other moment.

Maybe I falsely equate vulnerability with discomfort, So it feels weird to call that vulnerability because I feel very comfortable in that space. But maybe that's like a false pretense. I love that stuff, like I love when the shows are spontaneous, indifferent and exist in a way that they're not going to exist in any other moment.

And I remember the moment you're talking about because it was in three minutes.

And I remember the moment you're talking about because it was in three minutes.

Okay, yes, yep, And there's the end of the verse is the I'm afraid you won't meet me halfway, and I like chuckled, and I was like kind of went down like that, and then the next line and You're afraid I won't know how to stay, And then I also chuckled because it also went down like that.

Okay, yes, yep, And there's the end of the verse is the I'm afraid you won't meet me halfway, and I like chuckled, and I was like kind of went down like that, and then the next line and You're afraid I won't know how to stay, And then I also chuckled because it also went down like that.

And it just felt like there was this sad prophetic nature to that moment of that song. And then as I continue to perform the song, kept thinking about that moment and then forgot all of the words to the second verse, and luckily people in the audience knew it and helped that.

And it just felt like there was this sad prophetic nature to that moment of that song. And then as I continue to perform the song, kept thinking about that moment and then forgot all of the words to the second verse, and luckily people in the audience knew it and helped that.

And I feel like you don't see that a lot, and I don't know what that means or if that's even important, but I was like, well, this is actually one of the most memorable parts of the show, and I'm remembering in a good way. Let's actually go back to that and just maybe you were talking about more of like why your emotions really came about, But I actually do really want to know, even if you don't feel that way, even if you don't feel like you have the access to your emotions, the wapes people might assume of you, what is it like, because I feel like a lot of the conversations around masculinity happen without men.

And I feel like you don't see that a lot, and I don't know what that means or if that's even important, but I was like, well, this is actually one of the most memorable parts of the show, and I'm remembering in a good way. Let's actually go back to that and just maybe you were talking about more of like why your emotions really came about, But I actually do really want to know, even if you don't feel that way, even if you don't feel like you have the access to your emotions, the wapes people might assume of you, what is it like, because I feel like a lot of the conversations around masculinity happen without men.

It's women talking about men. And I'm very.

It's women talking about men. And I'm very.

Interested in what is the perspective of the man, because while while women are all genders really are affected by just patriarchy in general and masculinity in general. We're affected, but you guys are affected by it too, because there's expectations, and how do we actually show up as authentic and love that part of us if it doesn't meant expectations.

Interested in what is the perspective of the man, because while while women are all genders really are affected by just patriarchy in general and masculinity in general. We're affected, but you guys are affected by it too, because there's expectations, and how do we actually show up as authentic and love that part of us if it doesn't meant expectations.

So just tell me what it's like to have feelings as a guy.

So just tell me what it's like to have feelings as a guy.

I mean, I think the stereotype that men are not emotional is so absurd because I think it acts as if some feelings count as emotional and some feelings don't, as if, like, you know, you picture your stereotypical like dude, like you know, cis gendered straight dude punching through a wall in anger, and but that's just him like being I don't know, manly.

I mean, I think the stereotype that men are not emotional is so absurd because I think it acts as if some feelings count as emotional and some feelings don't, as if, like, you know, you picture your stereotypical like dude, like you know, cis gendered straight dude punching through a wall in anger, and but that's just him like being I don't know, manly.

As if like that's not that's not emotional.

As if like that's not that's not emotional.

Being emotional, but like a woman can shed a few tears in her car listening to a song and she's the hysterical. One quote unquote Big Air quotes on that one for those people listening. But like as if, like we've we've established that some emotions can be quote unquote manly and some make you any version of the derogatory, sexist words that we call men. So yeah, that spectrum is odd to me. I think, regardless of your gender, whether you're non binary, whether you're a woman, whether you're man, we live in a society that teaches us that some emotions are more allowed than others in our identity. And also I think the idea that like emotions and intellect are separate is just absurd as well, Like they're a very intertwined experience of ourselves, and there's all kinds of information in your emotions that you get to then think about. I live in a world where, like most of the most of the people around me are emotionally literate, big feeling, articulate, people who are very rarely in this version of their life told that they're being too much. But you don't live in southern California, you know, you grow up in any kind of small town. The version of what it means to be a quote unquote man is a pretty limited thing. But I also think that expanding on that doesn't mean rejecting yet because you know, maybe like you saw your dad your uncles in a certain way, and there's things about who they are that you want to embrace. I have like a bunch of non binary friends who have not just rejected the stereotypes of what it means to be a quote unquote man, they've rejected the identity of man at all. But that doesn't mean that there isn't things that about who they are that they've taken from their dads or their uncles or their grandfathers.

Being emotional, but like a woman can shed a few tears in her car listening to a song and she's the hysterical. One quote unquote Big Air quotes on that one for those people listening. But like as if, like we've we've established that some emotions can be quote unquote manly and some make you any version of the derogatory, sexist words that we call men. So yeah, that spectrum is odd to me. I think, regardless of your gender, whether you're non binary, whether you're a woman, whether you're man, we live in a society that teaches us that some emotions are more allowed than others in our identity. And also I think the idea that like emotions and intellect are separate is just absurd as well, Like they're a very intertwined experience of ourselves, and there's all kinds of information in your emotions that you get to then think about. I live in a world where, like most of the most of the people around me are emotionally literate, big feeling, articulate, people who are very rarely in this version of their life told that they're being too much. But you don't live in southern California, you know, you grow up in any kind of small town. The version of what it means to be a quote unquote man is a pretty limited thing. But I also think that expanding on that doesn't mean rejecting yet because you know, maybe like you saw your dad your uncles in a certain way, and there's things about who they are that you want to embrace. I have like a bunch of non binary friends who have not just rejected the stereotypes of what it means to be a quote unquote man, they've rejected the identity of man at all. But that doesn't mean that there isn't things that about who they are that they've taken from their dads or their uncles or their grandfathers.

Like it's not a one or the other thing.

Like it's not a one or the other thing.

It's not like, you know, you're either this super masculine human in the way that you grew up learning you're supposed to be, or you become this like sensitive, crying all the time, like weird stereotype. It's just all deeply whack. The truth is, there are just so many ways to be a person that live on a spectrum that's a lot wider than the parts of it that we limit ourselves to. And figuring out what part of that feels the most honest without the limitation of the perceived judgment of certain emotions more than others is a really freeing, really wonderful thing that I think makes you stronger as a human being if you can embrace the individuality of that, not weaker because you're not being a quote unquote man.

It's not like, you know, you're either this super masculine human in the way that you grew up learning you're supposed to be, or you become this like sensitive, crying all the time, like weird stereotype. It's just all deeply whack. The truth is, there are just so many ways to be a person that live on a spectrum that's a lot wider than the parts of it that we limit ourselves to. And figuring out what part of that feels the most honest without the limitation of the perceived judgment of certain emotions more than others is a really freeing, really wonderful thing that I think makes you stronger as a human being if you can embrace the individuality of that, not weaker because you're not being a quote unquote man.

There was a million things you just said, but one what did you say? I need I needed to repeat that because I liked it. Something about you can was it? Like you just you can disagree with it without rejecting it, like you can keep parts of it.

There was a million things you just said, but one what did you say? I need I needed to repeat that because I liked it. Something about you can was it? Like you just you can disagree with it without rejecting it, like you can keep parts of it.

I like that idea that like, we don't.

I like that idea that like, we don't.

Have to completely like abolish masculinity to not live in this like one or the other world.

Have to completely like abolish masculinity to not live in this like one or the other world.

No exactly. I mean, that's that's the exciting part of it.

No exactly. I mean, that's that's the exciting part of it.

Yeah, it's not like like, well, toxic masculinity, fucked, masculinity fucked.

Yeah, it's not like like, well, toxic masculinity, fucked, masculinity fucked.

You know, I'm abandoning all of that. It's not like that.

You know, I'm abandoning all of that. It's not like that.

It's it's it's finding the parts of your emotional experience that feel the most authentic to yourself and not limiting that to the boundaries that you know you have been taught growing up.

It's it's it's finding the parts of your emotional experience that feel the most authentic to yourself and not limiting that to the boundaries that you know you have been taught growing up.

Now.

Now.

That's not easy to do, right, especially you know, if you know, for better or worse, I have the blessing of not being tied to too many expectations of my very small family. So it's I recognize that there's a challenge to existing in opposition to the expectations of a lot of people around you.

That's not easy to do, right, especially you know, if you know, for better or worse, I have the blessing of not being tied to too many expectations of my very small family. So it's I recognize that there's a challenge to existing in opposition to the expectations of a lot of people around you.

There's a freeing component that you're talking about, and then there's a grief component too for a lot of people because leaning into this idea that we don't have to be one or the other, we don't have to be two things, this isn't right and that's wrong.

There's a freeing component that you're talking about, and then there's a grief component too for a lot of people because leaning into this idea that we don't have to be one or the other, we don't have to be two things, this isn't right and that's wrong.

By finding freedom for that, you might be grieving.

By finding freedom for that, you might be grieving.

Certain relationships, certain expectations that.

Certain relationships, certain expectations that.

You might even have for yourself.

You might even have for yourself.

Ideas like means to an ends for certain things when we are not groomed isn't the right word, but when we are brought up in a culture where there are these two things that feel really stable, and then we realize because these two things don't neither feels like right or safe, we still feel really uncomfortable in the process giving out of it. Right, So like, I can feel actually safer in this place where I don't have to live in these lines drawn for me, but it also might be way more uncomfortable. And I think a lot of times people get those confused where if I'm uncomfortable, that means I'm not safe, but actually this is safer it just feels weird and there's some loss in that, and loss is uncomfortable. So for you personally, not everybody's experience is going to be like yours, and so I don't want you to feel like you have to qualify it.

Ideas like means to an ends for certain things when we are not groomed isn't the right word, but when we are brought up in a culture where there are these two things that feel really stable, and then we realize because these two things don't neither feels like right or safe, we still feel really uncomfortable in the process giving out of it. Right, So like, I can feel actually safer in this place where I don't have to live in these lines drawn for me, but it also might be way more uncomfortable. And I think a lot of times people get those confused where if I'm uncomfortable, that means I'm not safe, but actually this is safer it just feels weird and there's some loss in that, and loss is uncomfortable. So for you personally, not everybody's experience is going to be like yours, and so I don't want you to feel like you have to qualify it.

But what do you.

But what do you.

Think were the things in your system and your community that let you kind of move outside of those lines that society kind of draws or definitely draws.

Think were the things in your system and your community that let you kind of move outside of those lines that society kind of draws or definitely draws.

I am very lucky to be to be rewarded for embracing my emotional experience of the world. I also get to think about my feelings all of the time, like it's my job.

I am very lucky to be to be rewarded for embracing my emotional experience of the world. I also get to think about my feelings all of the time, like it's my job.

Because it is. I mean, just like you do.

Because it is. I mean, just like you do.

We live in a world where we get to think about our feelings twelve hours a day if we want to.

We live in a world where we get to think about our feelings twelve hours a day if we want to.

That is not the reality for most people.

That is not the reality for most people.

Most people go to a job that doesn't leave very much room for them to be thinking about their emotional experience of the world because they've got shit to do. And therefore, you have a couple hours on either side of a job where there is space to explore your emotions, and it's also exhausting, and you're coming home to a couple of hours where you probably still have all kinds of things to do, whether it be the roles of your family or any number of things. All that to say, the amount of time of the day where there is left to be analytical about your emotional experience is pretty small, and it's probably parts of the day where you're already exhausted from everything else you had to do to just exist in that reality.

Most people go to a job that doesn't leave very much room for them to be thinking about their emotional experience of the world because they've got shit to do. And therefore, you have a couple hours on either side of a job where there is space to explore your emotions, and it's also exhausting, and you're coming home to a couple of hours where you probably still have all kinds of things to do, whether it be the roles of your family or any number of things. All that to say, the amount of time of the day where there is left to be analytical about your emotional experience is pretty small, and it's probably parts of the day where you're already exhausted from everything else you had to do to just exist in that reality.

Is where I.

Is where I.

Think artists provide value because we get to spend we have to spend a lot of time analyzing our emotions, so we can distill it into something that becomes a little window for someone to get to those parts of themselves a little faster. So maybe I spend months thinking about a feeling so I can capture that feeling in a three minute song. So when you get home at the end of your day exhausted, you can sit in your bedroom or listen to that song and access that feeling in yourself with a little bit more ease, without having to spend all that time to get there, because an artist spent all that time to get there for you and help you get there. That is like, if I were to romanticize where I feel purposeful as an artist, it's in that process.

Think artists provide value because we get to spend we have to spend a lot of time analyzing our emotions, so we can distill it into something that becomes a little window for someone to get to those parts of themselves a little faster. So maybe I spend months thinking about a feeling so I can capture that feeling in a three minute song. So when you get home at the end of your day exhausted, you can sit in your bedroom or listen to that song and access that feeling in yourself with a little bit more ease, without having to spend all that time to get there, because an artist spent all that time to get there for you and help you get there. That is like, if I were to romanticize where I feel purposeful as an artist, it's in that process.

Well, I don't even think that's romantic. That seems pretty factual to me. You are providing a really valuable service to a lot of people.

Well, I don't even think that's romantic. That seems pretty factual to me. You are providing a really valuable service to a lot of people.

Thanks.

Thanks.

I'm grateful I get to do it. I think I think poets do it. I think filmmakers do it. I think writers do it.

I'm grateful I get to do it. I think I think poets do it. I think filmmakers do it. I think writers do it.

Think.

Think.

I think that's why it's important for artists to face the more difficult elements of their emotional experience. You know, I think it's why you know when people ask me, like, is it hard to write about the most difficult parts of your life? Is it hard to write about these difficult feelings? It feels the most purposeful when it's more difficult.

I think that's why it's important for artists to face the more difficult elements of their emotional experience. You know, I think it's why you know when people ask me, like, is it hard to write about the most difficult parts of your life? Is it hard to write about these difficult feelings? It feels the most purposeful when it's more difficult.

Oh, I really like that. It feels more purposeful when it's difficult.

Oh, I really like that. It feels more purposeful when it's difficult.

If this was like no big deal, would be like, oh, I could do this with my eyes closed, Like what does it matter? I want to go back though, to what you said in the very beginning of about you think it's kind of silly that people say mental have emotions, because I agree with you, and I think we've categorized certain emotions as masculine and femine, that that one's okay to have, that one's not okay. But you're right, and if we actually opened up space to look around us and see things more clearly. We would see that every day, but because of the boxes people get put in like think about fear or or I think not any feeling and in to me, the way I view emotions is that feelings are guides and they kind of like lead us to what we need. So if I'm feeling something, it's saying like, hey, hey, there's something going on, there's.

If this was like no big deal, would be like, oh, I could do this with my eyes closed, Like what does it matter? I want to go back though, to what you said in the very beginning of about you think it's kind of silly that people say mental have emotions, because I agree with you, and I think we've categorized certain emotions as masculine and femine, that that one's okay to have, that one's not okay. But you're right, and if we actually opened up space to look around us and see things more clearly. We would see that every day, but because of the boxes people get put in like think about fear or or I think not any feeling and in to me, the way I view emotions is that feelings are guides and they kind of like lead us to what we need. So if I'm feeling something, it's saying like, hey, hey, there's something going on, there's.

Something that you need, let's tend to it.

Something that you need, let's tend to it.

And so if we only let men feel certain things like anger, it can even be seen as like cool or like oh yeah, like he's protective and he's this, and there's a whole thing about men and protection that I won't go down. Well. If men are only allowed to feel that, they don't get to explore like what the actual like what's underneath any of that, while women can sometimes And if you're not in one of those boxes, then who knows what your rules are? And maybe there are like a mixture of them, and that makes it even more confusing. But what happens if I, like, for example, if I am having road rage.

And so if we only let men feel certain things like anger, it can even be seen as like cool or like oh yeah, like he's protective and he's this, and there's a whole thing about men and protection that I won't go down. Well. If men are only allowed to feel that, they don't get to explore like what the actual like what's underneath any of that, while women can sometimes And if you're not in one of those boxes, then who knows what your rules are? And maybe there are like a mixture of them, and that makes it even more confusing. But what happens if I, like, for example, if I am having road rage.

I use this example all the time. I want to know your thoughts on this.

I use this example all the time. I want to know your thoughts on this.

If I am driving and let's say, for the sake of this conversation.

If I am driving and let's say, for the sake of this conversation.

I'm a dude.

I'm a dude.

Somebody who cuts me off and I'm like pissed, and I honk my horn, I flip them off.

Somebody who cuts me off and I'm like pissed, and I honk my horn, I flip them off.

I'm like fuck you man, and blah.

I'm like fuck you man, and blah.

Blah blah blah blah blahah whatever. Okay, most people that's road rage.

Blah blah blah blah blahah whatever. Okay, most people that's road rage.

That's rage.

That's rage.

Most people would say like, oh okay, like rage anger, Like okay, that's where it stops and there's nothing else going on there. But what I actually think if we were to boil that down and if feelings were like equal and free for everybody, is it really anger that's there or is there something else? Because when somebody cuts you off, what happens is you maybe you almost gotten a wreck, or maybe you like almost spilt your coffee or like who knows what happened. But a lot of times, underneath that rage is fear. And fear is an emotion that is like so wonderful because it one it can protect us, but also it shows us what's important to us. And sometimes that's just basically our life is important to us. But what we do is like men don't get to go down that like ladder and see like okay that actually I was scared, and what do I need? Well, if I'm scared, do do I need protection? Do I need care? Do I need comfort? No, you can't need that because you're supposed to protect and you're supposed to care, and you're sppitialian stuff, And so all of that to say is it's not that personally that I see. It's not that men don't have these emotions, that men are emotional. When anybody says like, oh, I'm not very emotional, no you are, you just kind of like stifle yourself and you put all your emotions in this box and then everything else is living underneath a rock somewhere that might explode at any given moment.

Most people would say like, oh okay, like rage anger, Like okay, that's where it stops and there's nothing else going on there. But what I actually think if we were to boil that down and if feelings were like equal and free for everybody, is it really anger that's there or is there something else? Because when somebody cuts you off, what happens is you maybe you almost gotten a wreck, or maybe you like almost spilt your coffee or like who knows what happened. But a lot of times, underneath that rage is fear. And fear is an emotion that is like so wonderful because it one it can protect us, but also it shows us what's important to us. And sometimes that's just basically our life is important to us. But what we do is like men don't get to go down that like ladder and see like okay that actually I was scared, and what do I need? Well, if I'm scared, do do I need protection? Do I need care? Do I need comfort? No, you can't need that because you're supposed to protect and you're supposed to care, and you're sppitialian stuff, And so all of that to say is it's not that personally that I see. It's not that men don't have these emotions, that men are emotional. When anybody says like, oh, I'm not very emotional, no you are, you just kind of like stifle yourself and you put all your emotions in this box and then everything else is living underneath a rock somewhere that might explode at any given moment.

I have a couple thoughts on that, and I want to speak specifically to the protectiveness you mentioned, because we were talking about it a bit earlier too. In my own experience, whether you're a man, non binary woman, I think all of us feel protective of the people we love, but in the context right now of cisgendered man, there is absolutely that stereotype of we are the protector. I actually don't think that's one that if you feel, if that comes naturally to you, you feel you want to protect your family. That's a beautiful thing. I don't think anyone suggesting you should not feel that way. I think the exciting part of the conversation is it's just maybe expand what that means to protect the people you love. You know, sure like that occasionally will mean you are physically protecting the people you love. Depending on where you live, probably not very often. But why can't your desire and in your nature to be a protector, Why can't that apply to protecting someone's emotional safety, someone's safety in themselves, you know, because that's where we live on a daily basis. You know, you're a man in a relationship with a woman and you want to make that woman feel safe. Isn't that safety, like a safety to be herself? In making her feel safe to be herself means showing up to her as a good listener, showing up for her with consistency, with affection, Like that's being a pret So I don't think it's about like when we talked about, you know, we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater on some of these stereotypes like it's not all bad, it's just a little bit of redefinition of like how we shape protector.

I have a couple thoughts on that, and I want to speak specifically to the protectiveness you mentioned, because we were talking about it a bit earlier too. In my own experience, whether you're a man, non binary woman, I think all of us feel protective of the people we love, but in the context right now of cisgendered man, there is absolutely that stereotype of we are the protector. I actually don't think that's one that if you feel, if that comes naturally to you, you feel you want to protect your family. That's a beautiful thing. I don't think anyone suggesting you should not feel that way. I think the exciting part of the conversation is it's just maybe expand what that means to protect the people you love. You know, sure like that occasionally will mean you are physically protecting the people you love. Depending on where you live, probably not very often. But why can't your desire and in your nature to be a protector, Why can't that apply to protecting someone's emotional safety, someone's safety in themselves, you know, because that's where we live on a daily basis. You know, you're a man in a relationship with a woman and you want to make that woman feel safe. Isn't that safety, like a safety to be herself? In making her feel safe to be herself means showing up to her as a good listener, showing up for her with consistency, with affection, Like that's being a pret So I don't think it's about like when we talked about, you know, we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater on some of these stereotypes like it's not all bad, it's just a little bit of redefinition of like how we shape protector.

It was about a year ago, maybe actually probably a year and a half ago. I had a conversation with Justin Baldoni, who wrote this book Man Enough.

It was about a year ago, maybe actually probably a year and a half ago. I had a conversation with Justin Baldoni, who wrote this book Man Enough.

I mean, his podcast is freaking incredible. So I was asking him.

I mean, his podcast is freaking incredible. So I was asking him.

I don't remember what I asked. He kind of like gave it to me straight. He's so great and he's an expert on this. It's what he's spending his life work on. And I don't know what I asked him, but he went on this kind of like it wasn't a ramp, but he just said it was so much like h that I was like, yes, But I think I was talking about how like, if I'm dating a man, I want him to be emotional. I want to be able to have emotional conversations. And there also is that part of me that's like, well, he can't be too emotional, so I want him to cry, but like I want him to cry at certain things. And it's the whole thing that I've had to dismantle myself. And he was like, yeah, because there's this experience that we're all going through, and we're all all kind of working through some most some of us are where like a woman feels like she needs to be protected, and so when we see something that is in our society deemed as weak, which is again emotions are seen as weak, where I see them as like these are tools, these are guide, these are amazing things. But if you show too much of them or you can't control them with air quotes, then there becomes this fear of the woman that the man can't protect me. And he went down this whole rabbit trail around like, well, why do we actually need to be protected?

I don't remember what I asked. He kind of like gave it to me straight. He's so great and he's an expert on this. It's what he's spending his life work on. And I don't know what I asked him, but he went on this kind of like it wasn't a ramp, but he just said it was so much like h that I was like, yes, But I think I was talking about how like, if I'm dating a man, I want him to be emotional. I want to be able to have emotional conversations. And there also is that part of me that's like, well, he can't be too emotional, so I want him to cry, but like I want him to cry at certain things. And it's the whole thing that I've had to dismantle myself. And he was like, yeah, because there's this experience that we're all going through, and we're all all kind of working through some most some of us are where like a woman feels like she needs to be protected, and so when we see something that is in our society deemed as weak, which is again emotions are seen as weak, where I see them as like these are tools, these are guide, these are amazing things. But if you show too much of them or you can't control them with air quotes, then there becomes this fear of the woman that the man can't protect me. And he went down this whole rabbit trail around like, well, why do we actually need to be protected?

Because there are there's other.

Because there are there's other.

Men out there that we do feel we need to be protected from. So I say all that because with the idea that wait, there's other ways that somebody can protect me. I might be in a relationship with somebody who could like literally take anybody out. If somebody tries to like hurt me in any physical way, he can like karate chop, you know, like figure that out. But I have haven't told them huge parts of me, Like I don't feel safe enough to like actually share with them experiences I had or beliefs I have about myself, or I still feel like I have to perform to be wanted by that person or I can't. I can't show certain emotions else this person is going to think ex of me. So you're bringing in this amazing idea and I'm so obsessed with looking out words and really digging into their meaning, Like protection, Why are we thinking about that in this one way? When if you don't feel like you can be yourself with your partner, no matter what gender they identify with, you're not protected, right, I mean, I agree completely.

Men out there that we do feel we need to be protected from. So I say all that because with the idea that wait, there's other ways that somebody can protect me. I might be in a relationship with somebody who could like literally take anybody out. If somebody tries to like hurt me in any physical way, he can like karate chop, you know, like figure that out. But I have haven't told them huge parts of me, Like I don't feel safe enough to like actually share with them experiences I had or beliefs I have about myself, or I still feel like I have to perform to be wanted by that person or I can't. I can't show certain emotions else this person is going to think ex of me. So you're bringing in this amazing idea and I'm so obsessed with looking out words and really digging into their meaning, Like protection, Why are we thinking about that in this one way? When if you don't feel like you can be yourself with your partner, no matter what gender they identify with, you're not protected, right, I mean, I agree completely.

And if you're you know, if you're listening to this as someone who feels a sense of you feel a desire to be a protector for someone you're in a relationship with, which I definitely do, what does that mean other than make your partner feel safe? That's what that means. To protect someone means make them feel safe. What is on a daily basis it mean to make your partner feel safe?

And if you're you know, if you're listening to this as someone who feels a sense of you feel a desire to be a protector for someone you're in a relationship with, which I definitely do, what does that mean other than make your partner feel safe? That's what that means. To protect someone means make them feel safe. What is on a daily basis it mean to make your partner feel safe?

Right?

Right?

Like?

Like?

That can be so very many things.

That can be so very many things.

Yeah, it doesn't mean beat up the guy down the street, Like, that's not what it means at all the majority.

Yeah, it doesn't mean beat up the guy down the street, Like, that's not what it means at all the majority.

I mean, maybe once a year, if you live in the right neighborhood, it means that. But like on a daily basis, it probably means emotional things. It probably means being in touch enough with your emotions that your partner isn't going to feel judged when they share theirs with you. And to just to what you're saying with Justin Baldoni, I mean I love him, big fan, like cannot wait to meet.

I mean, maybe once a year, if you live in the right neighborhood, it means that. But like on a daily basis, it probably means emotional things. It probably means being in touch enough with your emotions that your partner isn't going to feel judged when they share theirs with you. And to just to what you're saying with Justin Baldoni, I mean I love him, big fan, like cannot wait to meet.

Him, would love to talk.

Him, would love to talk.

You need to be on his podcast. I would love to be on his You would be a perfect guest.

You need to be on his podcast. I would love to be on his You would be a perfect guest.

Like when he you know, cries on that podcast, Like there's something revolutionary about that. But also I think there's a nuance to that that like being in touch with your emotions as a quote unquote man doesn't just mean like every time you feel something you cry. It means when you are in a setting where it is safe to do so, you aren't stopping yourself because of the way you've internalized what it means to be a man. No one's saying that, like, you know, you should, you know, someone should say something hurtful to you on the job and then you should just start crying, you know, Like that's.

Like when he you know, cries on that podcast, Like there's something revolutionary about that. But also I think there's a nuance to that that like being in touch with your emotions as a quote unquote man doesn't just mean like every time you feel something you cry. It means when you are in a setting where it is safe to do so, you aren't stopping yourself because of the way you've internalized what it means to be a man. No one's saying that, like, you know, you should, you know, someone should say something hurtful to you on the job and then you should just start crying, you know, Like that's.

That's not that's not what anyone's fighting for, right It's why like even when you hear athlete like you know this might be like slightly controversial amongst the community around reshaping masculinity.

That's not that's not what anyone's fighting for, right It's why like even when you hear athlete like you know this might be like slightly controversial amongst the community around reshaping masculinity.

But like you know, when athletes.

But like you know, when athletes.

Say, like, you know, you don't cry on the court, that's a different like we can be discerning about this, like, yeah, maybe it does show weakness to cry on a sports field, like that doesn't. But that's a different fucking setting. Then you get home, you have it, you're with your family or your partner or your children, and something really sad happens, whatever it is. You're having a conversation about trauma, you're having a conversation about, you know, issues in your youth, you're having a conversation about someone who's passed.

Say, like, you know, you don't cry on the court, that's a different like we can be discerning about this, like, yeah, maybe it does show weakness to cry on a sports field, like that doesn't. But that's a different fucking setting. Then you get home, you have it, you're with your family or your partner or your children, and something really sad happens, whatever it is. You're having a conversation about trauma, you're having a conversation about, you know, issues in your youth, you're having a conversation about someone who's passed.

In that setting.

In that setting.

Strength can mean crying in that setting, because it's weak to think you can't be seen that way. It's weak to not be secure enough to let the people you love be seen that way. Like redefining masculina doesn't mean we're just walking around sobbing all the time.

Strength can mean crying in that setting, because it's weak to think you can't be seen that way. It's weak to not be secure enough to let the people you love be seen that way. Like redefining masculina doesn't mean we're just walking around sobbing all the time.

Right, which we have to be disserving.

Right, which we have to be disserving.

Right Again, that goes to we're not getting rid of it, And I you're opening up a whole other conversation which I won't take you completely down, but I have this real like thing about intimacy and vulnerability, and like, yeah, we have where there's a movement and Brene Brown is leading the pack and we need, yeah, we need to actually like access that part of us.

Right Again, that goes to we're not getting rid of it, And I you're opening up a whole other conversation which I won't take you completely down, but I have this real like thing about intimacy and vulnerability, and like, yeah, we have where there's a movement and Brene Brown is leading the pack and we need, yeah, we need to actually like access that part of us.

And it is very important.

And it is very important.

And I don't need to tell my trauma to every single person I meet or go on a date with, or or think is nice or or find funny. Like that's first of all, that's not intimacy and vulnerability. That's just information sharing. That can be trauma dumping. That's trauma dumping. Is not intimacy. And so I think that we have as we are like redefining a lot of things right now, which is so important. What we're doing is we're taking out that discernment part. We're just putting We're going from over here to overhere. And first of all, that's terrifying for a lot of people, and so some people are just like.

And I don't need to tell my trauma to every single person I meet or go on a date with, or or think is nice or or find funny. Like that's first of all, that's not intimacy and vulnerability. That's just information sharing. That can be trauma dumping. That's trauma dumping. Is not intimacy. And so I think that we have as we are like redefining a lot of things right now, which is so important. What we're doing is we're taking out that discernment part. We're just putting We're going from over here to overhere. And first of all, that's terrifying for a lot of people, and so some people are just like.

No, not doing that.

No, not doing that.

You want me to cry everywhere I go. No, I'm not doing that. Well great, because we're not asking you to. So thank you for saying that, Because you're right, there are spaces where actually, if I want to like access that part of me that I feel like is shut down, I.

You want me to cry everywhere I go. No, I'm not doing that. Well great, because we're not asking you to. So thank you for saying that, Because you're right, there are spaces where actually, if I want to like access that part of me that I feel like is shut down, I.

Have to do it in places that are safe.

Have to do it in places that are safe.

So if it's not safe to do it like literally, like, if I want to learn how to be vulnerable, I need to do it in places that are safe, because if I'm vulnerable to every person I meet, I'm going to have a lot of experiences that say, hey, don't do that anymore. And then I'm going to create, whether it's a trauma bond or a belief about myself. And it's the same thing with masculinity of maybe one day will there will be a space where like we don't even have to have these conversations and everybody is just like a bubble of love. But that's not where we are right now, and so because of that, we have to actually like track and say, Okay, this is a space where like this is welcome. And maybe that's even stretching it too far. Maybe it's sometimes it's not welcome and I still can be myself and there's work to be done around that.

So if it's not safe to do it like literally, like, if I want to learn how to be vulnerable, I need to do it in places that are safe, because if I'm vulnerable to every person I meet, I'm going to have a lot of experiences that say, hey, don't do that anymore. And then I'm going to create, whether it's a trauma bond or a belief about myself. And it's the same thing with masculinity of maybe one day will there will be a space where like we don't even have to have these conversations and everybody is just like a bubble of love. But that's not where we are right now, and so because of that, we have to actually like track and say, Okay, this is a space where like this is welcome. And maybe that's even stretching it too far. Maybe it's sometimes it's not welcome and I still can be myself and there's work to be done around that.

But I have to have.

But I have to have.

The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is an okay part of me, but this isn't the place to do that because it would be harmful to do it here.

The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is an okay part of me, but this isn't the place to do that because it would be harmful to do it here.

I have to have.

I have to have.

The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is an okay part of me. But this isn't the place to do that because it would be harmful to do it here.

The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is an okay part of me. But this isn't the place to do that because it would be harmful to do it here.

Yeah, and that's hard.

Yeah, and that's hard.

Oh yeah, that is a hard thing to go about doing because being able to differentiate between good discomfort like uncomfortable but pushed through discomfort and no discomfort, don't do that anymore bad that's hard.

Oh yeah, that is a hard thing to go about doing because being able to differentiate between good discomfort like uncomfortable but pushed through discomfort and no discomfort, don't do that anymore bad that's hard.

Knowing the difference is hard, and you make mistakes in that, oh totally.

Knowing the difference is hard, and you make mistakes in that, oh totally.

Also, being discerning is hard. Being not looking at things in the binary is hard because sure, it's it's simpler to be like, okay, this is what I was taught. Being a one of the two genders means growing up in whatever framework of a mentality I've grown up in, it's easier to be like okay, Like living a life correctly means just doing that, But dismantling that means there's now a lot more options, which requires a lot more thought and fitting into you know, what does it mean to be myself separate from the things that I've learned to be myself within right, but not completely separate? Like Also, what do I still want to take from that? Like that? That's just that's a lot of work. Yeah, and I think that's why, you know, I don't really have all that much judgment for people who you know, haven't found that or are like a little bit adverse to it because it makes sense, like it's challenging, it's not an easy it's not like you.

Also, being discerning is hard. Being not looking at things in the binary is hard because sure, it's it's simpler to be like, okay, this is what I was taught. Being a one of the two genders means growing up in whatever framework of a mentality I've grown up in, it's easier to be like okay, Like living a life correctly means just doing that, But dismantling that means there's now a lot more options, which requires a lot more thought and fitting into you know, what does it mean to be myself separate from the things that I've learned to be myself within right, but not completely separate? Like Also, what do I still want to take from that? Like that? That's just that's a lot of work. Yeah, and I think that's why, you know, I don't really have all that much judgment for people who you know, haven't found that or are like a little bit adverse to it because it makes sense, like it's challenging, it's not an easy it's not like you.

Just do it thing.

Just do it thing.

Yeah, I wish that it was that way, but it's not at all.

Yeah, I wish that it was that way, but it's not at all.

And as we go through those spaces, what people maybe don't talk about as much is that the more you open yourself up, the more I've opened myself up, the more people are going to open themselves up to like expanding their view of what they can be and how they can be. The more you're also opening yourself up for criticism and judgment and speculation and all the things that don't feel great. And we have to learn and it's a process. We have to learn that like people agreeing with us or people under even understanding us, isn't like a measure of.

And as we go through those spaces, what people maybe don't talk about as much is that the more you open yourself up, the more I've opened myself up, the more people are going to open themselves up to like expanding their view of what they can be and how they can be. The more you're also opening yourself up for criticism and judgment and speculation and all the things that don't feel great. And we have to learn and it's a process. We have to learn that like people agreeing with us or people under even understanding us, isn't like a measure of.

Like doing it right, like totally.

Like doing it right, like totally.

Just because somebody understands me, they might have the wrong idea. And I have to stop basing my actions and the way I go out and experience the world on other people's understanding of how I'm living, because you're never and there's no way to get a one hundred percent accuracy on people understanding you and agreeing with you.

Just because somebody understands me, they might have the wrong idea. And I have to stop basing my actions and the way I go out and experience the world on other people's understanding of how I'm living, because you're never and there's no way to get a one hundred percent accuracy on people understanding you and agreeing with you.

There's no way.

There's no way.

But the more I'm going to kind of color outside of those lines, the more people won't get me right now.

But the more I'm going to kind of color outside of those lines, the more people won't get me right now.

And that's tough.

And that's tough.

Yeah, I mean, even like calling back to something we were talking about a while ago, like the subject matter of my new music it's a little bit a tad more controversial than the subject matter of.

Yeah, I mean, even like calling back to something we were talking about a while ago, like the subject matter of my new music it's a little bit a tad more controversial than the subject matter of.

My last album. This is true because.

My last album. This is true because.

The nuances of being left are far more explored in songwriting than the nuances of leaving.

The nuances of being left are far more explored in songwriting than the nuances of leaving.

I want to say, like you're doing the Lord's work because like, no, people aren't talking about that.

I want to say, like you're doing the Lord's work because like, no, people aren't talking about that.

That's an exaggeration. But like when I listen to your new song.

That's an exaggeration. But like when I listen to your new song.

The first time I listened to it, I literally texted my friends and I said, well, if somebody's going to break up with me, this is how I would want them to do it right. And I know it's like not that simple, because again, I might be that person on the other side that's like this doesn't make sense, Like I might not have learned this idea that you're placing out there yet, and it's not an idea that's talked about and for people to actually understand it, we.

The first time I listened to it, I literally texted my friends and I said, well, if somebody's going to break up with me, this is how I would want them to do it right. And I know it's like not that simple, because again, I might be that person on the other side that's like this doesn't make sense, Like I might not have learned this idea that you're placing out there yet, and it's not an idea that's talked about and for people to actually understand it, we.

Have to talk about it.

Have to talk about it.

And I understand why it's not as talked about or explored because we villainize the people who have left us. Not all of us do, but a lot of us villainize the people who have left us. And I understand why because anger is I think easier to feel than sadness. It's very hard to be sad at someone. You can't be sad at someone, you can be angry at someone. So if you're if you have a meant sadness, I think you because you can't be sad at you convert that sadness into something ellis and that's what we project. That makes sense, But it's the vantage point that I have right now, and I do feel creatively purposeful in exploring it right now because it does feel under explored. But that doesn't come with any that doesn't come with the lack of recognition that being on the other side of things is fucking horrible. It's fucking horrible, and it does I have no lack of empathy for how horrible it is to be on the other side of these songs.