Whitney Cummings is a stand-up comedian, actress, producer, writer, and director. She sits down with Sophia for over two hilarious hours (with her robot Bearclaw) to discuss her new Netflix special “Can I Touch It?” and how she got into stand up, codependency, sex robots, genomic imprinting, her upcoming projects, and their shared love of antique owls. Executive Producers: Sophia Bush & Sim Sarna Supervising Producer: Allison Bresnick Associate Producer: Caitlin Lee Editor: Josh Windisch Music written by Jack Garratt and produced by Mark Foster Artwork by Kimi Selfridge This show is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy.
Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. I absolutely love today's guest, like obsession level love her, and she is Whitney Cummings. We sat down together for over two hours, and I'm telling you it went by like that. We probably could have continued the conversation all day. She is hilarious and we were joined by her robot, bear Claw, who looks just like her. Yes, she has a robot and she brings this robot on stage with her during her Netflix special. If you haven't seen it, you must trust me. We talked about how Whitney even got into stand up, codependency, and of course sex robots. Here's Whitney Cummings. Where are you from? Originally DC? Okay, so were you? I always love to ask people this question. No, it's not a bad one. I'm just always fascinated because I feel like so many other people I get to sit across from have these super interesting stories or fascinating personalities or like quirks that they're very comfortable talking about, and so I'm like, as a little girl. Were you this like big and loud, funny person who was affected by noise? You're like, who hated the sound of like plastic graps? So you know, I wasn't. I was a really quiet kid. I was really alone kid. My family kind of as a joke because I was just a lone a lot as a kid. I just never learned like a proper decipel level and not to be sad or anything. But I just grew up in a home where you have to work really hard for attention, you know. So I just learned really early to like tap dance and being a taining and make people laugh and try to you know, totally attention by any means possible. And you had to really work very hard to be heard. And then you go out in the world as an adult and you're like hi, and everyone's like Jesus, why are you yelling at me? And I was like, Oh, that's just the tone I needed to You're like, this is my love high. It's like remember that Austin Powers thing. I'm having trouble gallery this out of my voice. Like It's like it was always like that was your family really big? No, no, small family. It's not like a great story, you know, but they were divorced and a lot of mental illness and alcoholism where you kind of have to fight really hard to like get people to wake up and feed you type thing, you know. So I sort of always was like trying to keep things light and make people laugh and take care of everybody, you know. I think humor can kind of come from to places where like jokes are about people and it's sort of cruel, or jokes are for people, and humor is what becomes really inclusive in a space. So it sounds like humor was sort of medicine in your dynamics in a big way, you know. And humor was the only way my family could communicate with each other. You know. It was a lot of really sensitive people, a lot of insecure people, and cutting and insulting is kind of how we showed love to each other, you know, it was. And that's also how we had uncomfortable conversations. You know. It's also how you can talk about really serious things without it being too devastating. You know. I just remember like passive, aggressive of form of communication. I don't endorse. I grew up a lot with I just remember, like the dinner table everybody laughing, like, well, if you hadn't had three wives, maybe wouldn't be in this situation, and everyone would laugh and be like that, I'm confused. I was like, because it feels like an inside kid and it feels like a job, but everyone's laughing, So I think I had a really um sort of I developed this dyslexia around the way to talk about a certain topic, and I think the heavier the topic, the lighter we made it. It hasn't served me great as an adult because the darker something is usually the funnier I think it is, which is just my way of processing it, you know. I learned at an early age just like make jokes. Make jokes so you don't have to like process the severity of something well, which I imagine for your career has been excellent, but like in a one on one heavy conversation might not be. So just what else is there? You know? I mean I think that it's It doesn't mean I don't take something seriously or I don't respect something or you know, but I think just knowing, you know, the context is everything. You know, because I used to go into situations with people who weren't comedians and be like, what's up with those fucking shure we that shirt? And I was like, okay, wait a second, this is not the right context for that. But I also spend some one time with comedians that it's you know, we all kind of do that, so you just have to kind of know when to turn it off. I get that. I think for me, I was an only child. I mean, I am an only child, so I spent a lot of time alone also, but not in the way where then like I had to challenge for attention. You know, there were three of us in my family, and I have these incredible cousins who, like I always sort of joke. I had the best of both worlds because it was like I had a big family. There were four of us, but when they got really freaking annoying, I could go home. But there were chunks of life where I was on my own. And then I went to journalism school, and like I tend to gravitate towards like let's analyze and unpack and talk about the meaning of life. And and I have almost the reverse experience with you, Like I love humor so much, but I didn't get to practice it so much. So I'm always afraid that like either a joke is going to fall flat or like I'm gonna come in like a bear paw and people are like that was really too far. It's story of my life. And I have this theory that a joke that doesn't get a laugh is either an insult or a lie, you know. So then you just have to and once you say, well that was a joke, it's already sailed. It's over, you know. So my biggest struggle, I think in the last couple of years is really being like, look, you're not a clown. You don't have to make people laugh all the time. You are enough. Usually if I'm being funny, it's or trying too hard to be funny. I'm either trying to manipulate or make somebody like me, or I'm implying that I don't think i'm enough for I'm not interesting enough or good enough to be I'm not I don't deserve to be in your space unless I'm entertaining you, you know, which is not great. And frankly, when someone's trying to be funny all the time, it's it's kind of exhausting, you know. And so I think I had to really look at myself over the past couple of years and just be like, look, when you're working, work, and when you're not, don't and it's okay for silence. Silence used to be the most terrifying thing in the world to me, because I felt like I would fill in those quiet moments with what I thought was the inner monologue of the other person, you know, and I would think, you're an idiot, you're stupid, you're not funny, you're not interesting. Like to me, silence always felt like a rejection, whereas I think silence is actually a great form of intimacy and trust, and that's what a real friendship is is you can kind of just be boring. And it took a long time to kind of figure that out. And I lost my dad a couple of years ago, and that's you know, when something like that happens to a lot of the things you've been working on for years kind of just crystallizes overnight. I was able to grieve around a couple of friends and just be boring and I wasn't capable of being funny, and they didn't go anywhere, and I was like, oh, I had I always my brain needs proof for every a tremendous amount of proof in order to change. Unfortunately, memes, screen grabs, inspirational quotes are not enough for me. I need empirical proof for my brain to change. And so once I went through that and I saw that I was super boring for a year and my friends didn't leave, I was like, Oh, this is so much easier. Why haven't I been doing this the whole time? Yeah? I could just ask questions and like, I don't have to be constantly doing bits at dinner. This is so much easier. Oh my god, I feel that's so hard. Like people, I think sort of to tease me because they're amused. We'll say like, why are you so into data science? Like that's so nerdy? And I'm like so many people but just just who are Like, I'll bring up some random, obscure reference about the percentages in this, you know, analysis, and people are like, what's wrong with you? And it comes from so much love? What's wrong with facts? I'm just like, I'm like, but the proof makes me feel so understanding. What else is there? Yeah, because ambiguity, I think is scary and and pointless. It's you know what I mean? I mean, the truth is you know. Yeah, That's why I get got super into neurology a couple of years ago because I was just like, I don't like this, like maybe this is it or maybe this is it. I'm like, I just want to know the answer. So I started going to a therapist. It was just that's not how neurology works. That's not true, because I be like, well, maybe I'm just like afraid of rejection. No, you're not getting dopamine because of this, and you're getting too much adrenaline because of this, and your body is producing too much cortisol in your front alobe is underdeveloped, and your amygdala is activated. So that's what's happening. And I'm like, Okay, I can take out the litany of other explanations I invented and just go with that, and the litany of a our explanations we invent tend to come from our fears about ourselves, about their delusions. It's dysmorphia. It's total old stories that were written thirty years ago, and they come in from our childhood. They come in from when something happens in the home, you go through some kind of trauma, and your little kid brain tries to connect dots but doesn't realize there's eighteen dots missing in between totally and like funked up paint by numbers. It's like a story that was written thirty years ago that's now obsolete. So it's like how we sometimes clown on our founding fathers, where we're like the people that wrote that are not the represented you know what I mean, Like that's an outdated back then that made a lot of sense now. The same thing with the story we wrote when we were ten that we're still adhering to about ourselves. You know, it's like we you know, we needed different things. We can sort of update our narrative according to our current reality. You know. Yeah, when I was nine, I thought my best friend from my entire childhood and into adult life and I were going to get married. We made a pact and we decided we were obviously very early feminists, Mikey and I, and we decided it that since it would be wrong to take either his last name or my last name, we'd pick a new one and it would be Smiley, And like that made sense to two nine year old best friends. Don't hate it. I frankly, I don't hate it. It would be some good content, right hot, I mean not know not, but it's like, yeah, at nine, you think you're making a life plan. What you don't realize is that your nine year old brain is making an imprint that actually affects your life. So many stories we tell ourselves every day, and like, again, we're science people, you know, so I think we can also say this, But there's lots of things we tell ourselves that just aren't true. You know. It's like, I know a lot of people really I'm allergic to dogs. I'm allergic to dogs, And I'm like, okay, I'm sure you are, and that's very real, but I don't know when that happened. We grow out of allergies, we grow into allergies, like sort of that. We have to be careful with the stories we tell about ourselves because they do start to imprint into something real. And I try to every couple of months ago, like, what are the things I think are true about myself? You know, I'm a rate of heights, I hate skiing, Like, I have all these sort of mantras about myself that I try to just revise and make sure I'm keeping up to date and fresh. I've been trying to get over my whole I'm morbidly afraid of needles thing because apparently I've had that since I was a kid. What so, what do you what is scary about them? Besides the fact that they're giant things that can break through the trash bags that are are skinned, right, that feels even thinking about them, my hands start to get clammy. And my mom was like, oh yeah, even as a baby, you have these crazy reactions to them. And I now have done this whole thing where I'm like, this is good for me. You know, I'm going to go get a blood draw so that I can get a an allergy tester or whatever stupid fucking health thing and trying to figure out because I like the science and I had to do this the other day. I had to get a blood test for my annual panel and I was like, this is great. I'm going to choose it. This is like medicine. And the minute that if you went in like I turned green, my whole body started sweating. The nurse went, Okay, it's happening. I can't. I want to control this so badly, and I don't know where it comes. Have you ever done any family constellation work. I can't believe I'm saying that. I okay, it's it's not eamily constellation. I'm not saying it's science. I'm not saying it's science, but there I am very into epigenetic imprinting. So it's like things that have happened to our ancestors explain a lot of the fears that we have now. So it is one hundred percent proven that there were there were these incredible studies. And I'll put in the bio or whatever you put all your stuff. I'll send you the link to how mice when they there was the study where they were smelling cherry blossoms and every time they smelled a cherry blosom they got electrocuted. Their offspring when they smelled a cherry blossom ran Right, when we show babies pictures of spiders, they're scared, even though that they've never seen a spider and don't know what a spider is. The same with snakes. Right, So imprints in our d n a these fears. And this is super crazy. And the only reason I believe it is because it happens to me. If someone told me the story, I would think it was total dogshit, but I can't deny it. So I'm really into like horse rescue. It's like my thing. I just think in general, horses are what built civilization for us. They've done a lot for us that they got us to hospitals back in the day, they saved our lives. Incredibly intelligent. I just have a very deep connection to horses. Grew up with them. Whatever at quine therapy for trauma, all that kind of stuff, blah blah blah. Google me and I have a very deep obsession with carriage rides, and I've spent a lot of time trying to shut the ones down in the Carolinas and in New York City. And when I see them, I have an histrionic reaction. It's like crazy, Like I can't even go to the upper eastern West side of New York City. My fiance if he's here's because I hear them and I instantly just break down and he has to carry me into a cab and we have to leave. Like it's so bad and so irrational and not childish, but it's just an incredibly overwhelming it's visceral. I'm crying. I'm I'm at for a couple of days, like I have to cancel press when I'm in New York, Like that's how bad it is. And I did this family consolation work and I can't explain it very well, So I'm going to explain it in rudimentary terms. Basically, you go through all of your ancestors, your grandfather's, your great great grandfather's, what they did, what happened, and she kind of figures out like what you're carrying, you know, like pain from Okay, your great great grandfather, you're carrying some of their unfinished business basically, or something negative that happened to them are now expressing through your genes. Being an allergy, be it a fear, being an obsession, being an addiction, whatever it is, right, we've inherited whatever genes are expressing themselves. So she said, something's going on with your great great great grandfather. He did something unforgivable and it's expressing itself all over It's like it's all over you. And I don't know anything about my ancestry. I don't anything. I'm not that person I used to like started doing twenty three and me, and then I got super paranoid about who they're sharing the data with, like I'm that person. Like I'm like I called my uncle and we never talked about this kind of ship. And I was like, hey, what can you tell told me about our great great grandfather right, and he's like, oh, he had crosis, which is my family in a nutshell, um had crosis. This this let me find something out. And I was like, hey, can you let me know like what he did, like anything? And first she said she was like, whatever your great great grandmother did with your grandfather, she withheld love. That's how she punished him, which is what I do. That's like my thing one oh one. If I feel hurt, I just withhold and check out. And so he explained to me what happened in their relationship and I was okay, that tracks. And then he was like, well he was always busy with horse carriages and I was like what are you talking about. He's like, oh, he like patented the axel in West Virginia that all the horse carriages were built on. And I was like, I know. I was like, well I met everyone did that back then, Like that's probably just what everyone's job was, you know, it was like today like working in Amazon or something. And he was like, oh no, No, he actually patented the axel that every horse carriage was based on, and if I hadn't heard it, I wouldn't believe it. So I don't know what's going on with you and needles, but it could be something old. They're also needles, yeah, and they're fucking scary, and that's the right reaction. It's like so weird. It's so weird, and I know it's because because medicine. It's literally medicine. It's helping you. Yes, And there's something about like the push and it's so instant and and the reaction of people who see what happens to my body. I can't see it, but I feel it. I feel like I'm dying. But people who see me always unequivalent to go, oh god, And I'm like what I do know? Oh no, it's really rare. Maybe that's what I should do the next Like when I got an I U D put in, it was like so bad that when I'm gonna go get it out, I'm just going to drug myself. I'm not above that. I don't. I'm in. Here's the thing. I'm also like, I'm just going to clarify this is if it's not obvious. Yet with all the woo ship that I'm into, you know, maybe it's a California kid because like I grew up in the woods and I grew up with horses, and but I'm all for any kind of plant medicine that replaces any kind of pharmaceutical because like, we don't know what these chemicals are made of, but the Earth handed us all these things. So yeah, I'm down. Like Chelsea Handler was like, I'm starting a weedline. I was like, do you need someone to help you test that? Because I'm super sensitive and I'll know immediately if something is too strong. As long as I don't have to drive myself anywhere, that's fine. I do think though, just on storry to keep talking about your needles thing. I do think we're living in this time where no one's allowed to be afraid of anything, Like don't have fear. It's like, fear is a very helpful emotion. It's what has kept our species alive. It's an appropriate reaction in a lot of situations, and it helps us make smarter decisions and it's part of being human. I think if you're afraid of needles, you're probably you're in sceistors probably survived very well and you have very strong genetics, and I think it's a good thing. Same with anxiety. Basically your ancestors raped everybody, you know, they were not afraid of sharp objects. Um, probably the opposite. But I just I think that we're in this place where like anxiety is bad and fear is bad. It's like it's also what has kept us alive as a species. So it's just I'm you're a science person, like I'm always in this place. That's like, why are we trying so hard to get rid of all these things that are actually what made us thrive and that help us make good decisions? And if you're anxious, my thing is like, why make that go away? Maybe you're in a situation you need to get out of. Maybe your body and your brain are telling you something. Well, everyone I know that's anxious, they're in a bad relationship. It's like, because you're in a bad relationship, you should have anxiety and that should help you get out of it. And that's like everything in me is firing on a yes right now, because I think what's interesting is we look at the symptom and not the cause. So all these people will say I'm super stressed, I don't sleep well. You know, something's going on with my body. And we've been taught to attack the symptom and we ignore causes. Women especially, I think, have been cultured to like, stay in the relationship, do the right thing, be nice to everybody, always show up, always be fine. You know, even for you to say if you have this bad experience, like you'll cancel your next day because you're so emotionally affected, it takes a long time to give yourself that kind of permission. And I don't think the world gives us that permission. We don't have the permission to take mental health days. And I don't know. I know that for me, I experienced a version of exactly what you're talking about, where like I was in a bad circumstance, I was in a bad relationship, and I just kept looking at what I was doing wrong that was making me anxious, instead of removing myself from the circumstances. That we're making me feel worthless and that that was causing anxiety. But nobody had ever taught me two look outside and say, for up, this or that dynamic isn't good for me, rather than to go to the thing that I think so many women especially are cultured to do, which is like, well it's me, I'm not enough. Yeah, that's right, I need to deal with my anxiety problem. Or your coworker is an asshole and is making you anxious and this is not a good match for you, and you need to set a boundary and go, you know what, I need to move to a different office, or I need to change jobs, or I need to set a boundary, or I need to distance myself from this person, or this isn't a healthy friendship for me, or whatever. You know, Like, anxiety is a really important part of our body telling us things, and it's our gut. And I think that when we ignore the cause, the symptom then comes out in a much greater way sideways somewhere else. So so you're like you're having a panic attack about some random thing. You're like the mouse with the orange bossom sense who's running from nothing because you haven't actually dealt with the thing that's making you feel like you need to run. You're telling yourself like this is fine, this job is fine, this relationship is okay. You do the thing where you're like, well, everyone says all relationships are work and it's hard. It's work. It's supposed to be like this, but like what kind of work? Yeah, because if it feels like torture, you know, and we just shouldn't. Yeah, we we push things out sideways, and then we feel like that sideways thing that quote makes no sense is the thing we need to deal with. We're also not designed to live like this. It's like, it's just I can't believe neurology is not taught in schools. We're not designed to look at screens all day. We're not designed to have cars driving past us every second. Our primortial brain thinks it's like lions or something dangerous. We're not designed to be engaging. Like, we're just not designed for any of this. So it's like we have our neurology has not evolved to be okay with any of it. The way that we consume news. Everyone should have anxiety about everything all the time. Well, we've created otherwise, you're just not paying attention. It's so crazy to be that people like I just need to deal with anxiety. Like, have you seen the news that your anxiety is not going to go away for a while if you don't have it your numb or is those I just don't know how anyone can not have anxiety right now. You know, anxiety is how people get motivated to change their circumstances, and it's an important engine. Was on Instagram people like funck fear, fuck anxiety. It's like, no, those are tools that can help us make decisions and see red flags and get motivated. Yeah. I think for me it's I've had to learn to make everything a little more of an adjustment in the middle because this whole thing of like fuck fear, well that doesn't work. But so what I started to say to myself is like, very often fear is a liar. I will feel fear around this, which I don't need to What am I actually afraid of right now? And why is it coming out over here? Is it good fear or is it a rational old fear? How do you think learning? Because I think it's so cool that in your last book you talked so much about codependency and we're talking about all of this neurology stuff, and I know that so much of your research around all of these things together brought you there and brought you down that path. And I guess I'm just curious. You said in an interview that I loved. You were like, yeah, it's the first chapter of my book. I'm like the first time chapters of my life. And I was like, okay, I get that. I'm curious because I think when you're in a place it seems like you are and I love to speak there where you're so in the work and like you've gotten to the other side of some things. I kind of like to rewind with people who might be just starting to look who are like I feel these emotions, I have these things like how do you even begin to determine the codependency is a thing in your life, and for you, as you said, it was this condition where you couldn't tolerate not being liked, you couldn't tolerate having low self esteem, and so you'd focus on the needs of other people so that you didn't have to focus on your own stuff. That's I mean, that's a really big crux of it. And something interesting that you said that I always want to delineate is I think a lot of people look at me and they go, she doesn't have a low self esteem. There's a difference between low self esteem and confidence, and there's a difference between low self esteem and like charisma or charm, and often times the loudest, most gregarious, most outgoing people have the lowest self esteem because they're trying to overcompensate for something that they think that they're lacking, you know. So I think a lot of times there's a little bit of a discrepancy there and people are like, wait, does that get What are all these like people like, you know, big personalities doing talking about their low self esteem? Like what's it? This bit you know, like for attention, But it really is I think something we're talking about, because I think it takes a lot of people a long time to understand it, because they're like, what do you mean I have all these friends, I must have high self esteem. You know. It took me a long time to be like, I'm a stand up comedian with low selfest, Like that doesn't add up because I'm going, like, I'm gonna go talk for an hour in front of thousands of people. I must have high self esteem. So that took me a long time. And yeah, I mean the definition of codependence that I think works the best for me is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others, and that is manifests everything from I have to go to this baby shower or else she's gonna get mad at me. I've got a swing by this party. Uh, my friends calling about her breakup again. I have to answer. I've been on the phone with this person for twenty minutes. I don't know how to get off, Like, are you the person that ends the phone conversation or is the other person? You know? Do you find yourself involved in other people's drama? The three ms is a big one, micromanaging, martyring, and mother ing. Do you find yourself doing things for other people that they can do for themselves, even though they're complete adults. Do you think you're the only person that can get a task done? Do you think it's not going to get done if you don't do it yourself? You know? Do you find yourself exhausted and sick? I mean people twelve step programs for codependents and Alanan's and twelve step programs for you know, a A and NNA and narcotics Anonymus and everything. They're all the same sort of general steps. But basically what we say is that alcoholics are addicted to alcohol. Drug addicts are addicted to drugs. Alanan's and codependence are addicted to people other addicts, talking, manipulating, just as dangerous lifestyle, you know. Whereas alcohol to my drink and drive, Alanan's might text and drive. Because we have this sense of urgency, we have to respond to this text right now. I have to respond to this right now. I have to engage with this right now, like I have to handle this right now. There's this sense of urgency all the time. And perfectionism is another really big part of it. Can you leave a dish in your sink for a couple of days or do you never touch it? A big part of the way our brains work is perfectionism leads to procrastination, which leads to paralysis. So it's if I can't do it perfectly, I'm not going to do it at all, and I kind of avoid it and get paralyzed, you know. So there's lots of different parts of how codependence works. A lot of it is entrenchment of being not being able to just like be friends with somebody in a way that's healthy and has boundaries. It's like we have to be best friends, you know. For me, it was like really hard to like go to a party and not leave with plans with like four people to go on a hike, you know what I mean, and just getting like little too close to someone before you really know them. And that was a really big problem for me. It was just like I had to be like so close with everybody, and I had to be everyone's like best friend and first call, and I was gravitating towards people that didn't make me feel good about myself, or people who were like a mess, or guys that were like going through a breakup, or just people that you know, generally created so much chaos that it helped me to focus on something other than myself and my own pain or grief or stuff. And also it's quite simply kind of an adrenaline addiction codependence because you're like this person needs this, and then I have to go drive this person to the airport, and then I have to make this phone call, and then you overbook yourself. That's another big one a codependent relapse is. And it's so funny because our interview is a ten and I was here in nine, which is that's not at all what it was. It's oftentimes we book ourselves so tightly because we need to achieve so much in order to feel good about ourselves that were ended up being sort of late and forgetting things and dropping things and the and then our life gets more chaotic and more chaotic. So a big part of you know, self care and recovery of codependence is like if you need to leave thirty minutes early, you leave forty five minutes early. You have realistic, non delusional understanding of how reality works. You might have to stop and p you might need to get to like we book ourselves really tightly. You know, these are like little things that I think a lot of people don't associate with codependence, but it's all this hydra that kind of goes back to the same thing. So I had all these little things that I my story. It was like, I'm just really busy. If you say that more than three times a week read about codependence, because buzziness is like a pretty big symptom of it. Or like I like to be helpful, which is like one, I like to be people's mothers so that they need me saying that I know I'm worthy because something that happened in my nine year old brain told me I wasn't so she's forty, why does she need your help? She can help herself, She's got nobody wants your help. It's like that's the other thing. It's like, as soon as you start helping somebody, people just resent you. It's insulting and it's patronizing. Like when you start helping somebody, I mean it's a case by case thing. That's when you start helping someone, you're implying Number one, you can't handle yourself. And I'm so uncomfortable focusing on me and helping myself off that I'm going to just start micromanaging you. It's like I'm using you like a drug to feel good about myself. You know. Codependence derived their self esteem by helping other people to get their approval and to get like points. So, like codependence, you really have to take an inventory of your motives and make see what they are. Are you doing it to be manipulative? Are you doing it to be liked? Are you doing it to distract yourself? Are you doing it out of obligation because you think you have to. You really have to like get in there and look at your motives. You can be of service, but you can't help. That's kind of what happens. Yes, And there's a fine line, very finely, and when you start to see what is what lives on either side, it becomes so clear to you which is which was there like some crazy thing or just when you looked at it sort of thing that shocked you about your own behavior that was kind of a wake up call, like were you able to look and say, oh, my codependency caused me to do that, to behave this way? Yes, great question. And there's so many and I don't want to name like the such extreme ones that are going to make people go, I'm not that crazy because I've had like family and rehab and I was like bringing them food and sweaters and stuff in rehab. And I like Neil Brandon has a joke about this, but you might be codependent if all your relationships and with you saying if someone asked you how it ended, it's just like I just loved him too much. I think I just loved him too much, you know, Like that's always sort of like what ends up happening with that. For me, I couldn't get out of relationships. I would stay in them like a year too long because I just could. I could not tolerate the discomfort of others, which is so ironic because you're wasting a year of someone's life. It's not kind. And when I woke up to that habit for me, I have that like perfectionism procrastination, and then I have that staying thing. It's no, it's horrible, and in your brain you're like, well, we're you know this is this is my partner, but this is also my best friend, and we're gonna we're gonna get there together. We'll figure out how to undo this together. And I'm not going to fail catch up to this. This isn't for us, but we should be able to end it lovingly. And if I just ended it won't be loving and he'll be angry and all of it is. They'll be angry. Okay, I'll be hurt. Okay. Are you the one that doesn't ever get to be hurt in life? You're the one that like whoever promised us we were never going to get hurt and no one ever like it's just all life has ever been. Yet we have this sort of it's delusional, really, and it's a denial thing that we have. And I grew up in an home with mental illness called borderline personality disorder, which really doesn't number on you because you're so afraid of someone exploding in any moment. You want to make sure it's always, you know, seventy degrees and everything's fine, and you've got your drink at five o'clock. You know. So I really grew up thinking that I had to kind of walk on eggshells and manage everybody's feelings all the time. But like, that's you trying to be someone else's higher power and not letting them have the dignity of their own experience, and quite frankly, treating them like a child and infantilizing them. But I think when you learn that as a child, it's very hard to see as an adult that that's what you're doing. You know, you're you're so in this space of wanting to be gentle and wanting to make sure you do it right out, and it takes a long time to go through it, almost clinically, to go, oh, I see that, like at the time that I did it, and then I did it again, and then I did it again, and I stayed a year too long every time did it. I didn't see it. I didn't know but now looking back and being able to analyze, it's like, you know, hindsight is cliches are cliches because they're true. But for you to have figured this out by this age, it's also a miracle, you know what I mean. Same, I'm so glad we're talking about it. I yeah, I had someone in my family get really sick and I was forced to go into Ellen, and I thought I was nailing it. Like I thought I was super highly functioning. I had so many friends, I was in three relationships. It was I was like, this is I'm, you know, multitasking, Like but I remember, like, look at me. I had no idea, Like I just thought everybody else was crazy. That's codependent one on one. If you've met more than two assholes in one day, maybe you're the asshole. Maybe you're the one with impossibly high expectations. Maybe you're the one victimizing yourself because you're doing too much for someone else and then you feel bad when they don't reciprocate. Stop stop helping anyone, and you'll stop feeling bad, you know, because we're like, well, I just I bought this person this gift, and I went to this person's birthday party and I commented on this person's photo, and I help this person and I loan this person money, and then you feel like shit because you're doing too much for other people. Like CODA is a lot of stop giving, stop helping. Nobody wants your help. Turn it in, yes, because you're just gonna end up victimizing yourself and setting yourself up to feel hurt later. But I think when you're that kid who learns to take care, to be the middleman, to to smooth things over, that's right to be the entertainment you gain as a child, value from being good at helpful help, that's right. That's where you get yourself. There are people's stuff, but you're getting your internal needs meant externally and you're using. What you're doing is you're using other people. And it doesn't seem that way because I just bought you a three candle, So how am I using you? I just did this nice thing for you, you know. But one of the first things I heard in a twelve step meeting for codependence is this person got up and was explaining this amazing speaker said, like people pleasing is a form of assholary. It just like clicked for me, it was just like, wait a second, I thought my story was I'm so nice, that was my story about myself. I'm just I'm so nice to everyone. I'm just like the nicest person. Yet I'm always mad at them because they're not fulfilling my expectation of how nice they should be back to me based on how nice I was to that, you know what I mean. So I was always like, I can't believe people just start more grateful about how nice I am, you know. And then I just realized, like, what are you doing. You're just kind of like being a dick and setting themselves, you know, like codependence breeds resentment, that's the whole thing. So the nicer you are to someone else or in your head the where it's nice, the more you're just breeding a future resentment. So just stop doing half the ship you're doing. I remember it heard a meeting once in Christmas. This woman was like, my goal this year is to buy half as many gifts as I bought last year. And it was just like such a simple little goal. And then the next year she's like, I'm buying half as many gifts, and then in year later she's like I'm buying no gifts for anyone for Christmas. And guess what, no one gives a ship. Like you could write someone a nice card and it would be meaningful to coffee cool hang out with them. No one's like Sophia, didn't get me a gift, and if they do that, they gotta go, right. That's not something that you'll be in your life anyway, right, So it's like, stop doing all this ship you're doing. So for me, it's always like, do fifty percent of what you think you should do. So, like on Sunday night, I go through my calendar and I have nine things planned in fourteen dinners and seventeen drinks and eighteen shoe store openings. Then I have to go through and just go nope, nope, nope, nope, because I truly think those are good ideas. The concept of saying no, it's still really hard for me. That's a big coda thing. It's just your first instinct is yes. And so I have these like stock things by my computer that I say, so, what's so interesting about you saying that? Back in well, it was, but we were getting into New Year's and I was sitting with one of my best friends from forever, and we were in my kitchen and both of us were having that moment, like talking about the things we felt paralyzed from doing that we wanted to do, like why haven't we written that thing? And why haven't I gone here? And why didn't I say that thing I needed to say? And we both were like really in it, and we were like, you know, fear is paralyzing us again, fear in the wrong place, stopping us from doing what we want to do. Be afraid of the lion, don't be afraid of the car. Let's figure it. Let's figure this out. So we decided that was going to be our year of Yes, and we coined it and we started talking about it. And it was like every trip I got asked on I went on, every fun adventure on a Saturday, would be like should we go hike? And like Malibu Canyon, it's an hour away and it's already eleven fucket, yes, let's go. And it was the most beautiful thing. And I remember, like six months into the year, I started doing these non denominational Shabbat dinners at my house. So like a friend who was agnostic would like read something a friend who was Jewish would read something a friend who grew up Catholic, a friend who was Muslim, like all these people would bring stuff. Maybe it would be like and sometimes it was just like so obnoxiously l a and like someone would a John Year poem, like like a scientology only thing not welcome, like if you traffic people, you're not welcome, but other denominations. So it was like junior, early July of the year, and a bunch of friends were over and one of my buddies looked at me and he goes, I'm having this, like things are amazing, We're catching up. We haven't seen each other in two months. There's fifty people in my house. It's like beautiful and he and he goes, if you heard it's the Year of Yes. And Jenny and I looked at each other and we were like, oh my god, it's made it into a thing. And and a friend of mine was like, you should write a book about this, and I was like, who the funk is going to read this book from like this girl from TV called the Year of Yes. Three years later, Shanda Rhymes wrote it. And then I read Elizabeth Gilbert's book Big Magic, that talks about how when you have an idea. An idea has a soul, and if you ignore it, it goes somewhere else. And I was like, if Shonda Times and I were sharing the same like primordial idea soup, It's like the greatest thing that ever happened to me, and I need to talk to her about it. But that's not the point. The interesting thing about having a year of yes as an often paralyzed person emotionally anyway, is that saying yes to so many things actually was my key to learning how to say no, because I realized that the like Saturday adventure into the woods with my friends fills me, and the and the seven shoe store openings and the Friends brand and the candle launch and the thing that doesn't. And it's just as easy for me to support people in a public manner because we now have the luxury of all these social channels and these things. But I don't have to drive across town. I don't have to go from Hollywood to the Palisades at six o'clock and sitting two and a half hours of traffic to be somewhere for thirty minutes, to hug someone, to take a photo, to leave the thing, to get home so that I can do my homework before. It's like I had to lean into my desire to experience in order to learn the difference between my actual yeses and my nose and I realized I've been saying yes to things that we're a hard note for me for so it's unless it's a hell yes, it's a no yeah. It's just like that's my and I quote that in my book. It's someone else said that it's great, like it's just for me. My thing now is usually the answers now, And there's also I'm going to let you know in three days. That's just a rule I have to make because in the moment I just don't know because my codependence like you don't cure it, you manage it. It's like an eating disorder or whatever addiction. You manage it. So for me, my thing is thank you so much for the invite. I'll let you know in a couple of days and then I can sit. I can sit on it. I go do I really want to drive to Culiver City of to fifteen? Or maybe there's an iteration that I haven't thought of, which is like, yes, I'll do this, but if it's on a Saturday and if we can face time, you know, like, I just have to figure out the iteration that works the best for me. I have my stock answers. If the answer is no, and my just be hey, now it's not a good time for me. Can we circle back in a couple of months. Hey, I'm a capacity right now. My plate is full. I'd love to revisit in February. Like I just I have my kind of stock things now. But I also I think a really important part of saying yes is being able to know that you This is a big allen On thing is you can change your mind. My thing used to be once you say yes, it's over, it's signed, it's sealed, it's delivered. I now can go hey, I'm so sorry I thought about it. I'm now looking at my schedule. This just no longer works for me. I hope we can do something else in the future. And that's okay. And people are allowed to have their feelings and they're allowed to be mad, and it's allowed to be inconvenient for them, and that's part of their journey. And every time we're uncomfortable, we grow in some way and don't get in the way of someone else in their growth. Let them have their reactions, let them have their consequences so that they can grow or go through whatever they need to go through. Like if they're mad at me because I couldn't do something that's their ship, that's just not my ship. It's just literally none of my business what their reaction is, you know, because when you do something you don't want to do, you lie. And it took me a really long time to understand that. When you're going hang out with friends that you maybe don't get along with, or you're going to a party, you would you if someone invited you, Like if you invited someone to your birthday party and they didn't want to come, and they showed up anyway, how bummed would you be? Also, they'd ruin it, they'd be in a bad mood, and then I'd be worried about their mood instead of enjoying my birthday. I love it when people say no to me because then I always know that when they say yes, they really want to be there, or when they compliment me, I can actually believe it, do you know what I mean? Like I love being in friendships where people who go like, you know what, I'm sorry I just really don't feel like going to the beach today. Can I cancel? And I'm like totally. And then when they do show up to something, I know that they're I never have to worry about their motives. Yeah, I will know. I stand. I know you really wanted to be here, because yes, everything very thank you for coming. But I did say yes right away, and then I was like three days later, I was like, I still want to do this. Oh my god, that's great, exciting. Look at that. Do you looking back now? I really sidetracked myself on childhood questions. But did you have teachers who really inspired you as a kid? Were you doing comedy or theater or things as a kid? I really my childhood was did you know people are like, how do you become a comedian? And I'm not joking, like you do just have to have a bad childhood, Like do you do? Something has to happen to you that makes you need attention in validation from strangers. I don't think that's something that you can just like learn, And that's something that is a You can either stand on stage in front of a bunch of drunk strangers and want their approval or not. I don't think that's damage you can do later in life. But I was very dramatic, and I wanted to be a journalist. And I interned at news stations and I went to Yeah, I went to Annenberg at Penn, and I was going to be a journalist way so I was like, gonna be a journalist my whole. I was obsessed with Naomi Wolf. I was obsessed with Upton Sinclair, like I was gonna, like, my big thing is shining light on thing that no one's talking about, and this is my thing, and just this. I was obsessed with justice. Most comedians are journalists. And when I was at Penn, there was a professor named Caroline Marvin, and she taught a class on the First Amendment and freedom of speech. And she would burn the flag every year and get arrested. And we would talk about, you know, why is it not okay to burn the flag? And it is okay for women to wear bikinis, and that our American flag and our Confederate bikinis okay, And you know, just these really difficult conundrums that are sort of perfect for a comedian too. You know, that's where we like to sort of be on the edge around something or make an unpopular argument and figure out a way to make it funny. And she played George Carlin's the words you Can't Say, the Carlin versus specifica case on why you can say asshole or jackass but you can't say asshole, and just sort of all this, and I was like really fascinated by our morals and why you can say jackass and not asshole on television like ship, Like that just fascinated me. And so that's when I started in stand up, because I, oh, why you can call someone a bitch on television but you can't say ship, You can't say God, you can't say Jesus, and all of it. You know, so I just got really upset. I always had written like weird little essays like in journals about like very unpopular arguments, and that's a lot of what stand up is making an unpopular argument and figuring out a way to defend it, or exploring things that most people don't give, you know, two seconds of attention to. And you know, like my whole next special is defending sex robots. You know, probably an unpopular argument, you know, but I can't wait to get into that. We'll see yeah, we'll see. So that professor, I think is the one that had an impact on me. But I always kind of just found myself in conversations taking a very unpopular stance. And maybe it's because I was alone so much as a kid. I don't know, but I definitely just I like to not just agree with everyone and everything. But I also think that's so important. That's how we develop our critical thinking abilities. And if we didn't look at every disagreement as an argument, but rather as a that's that's right, let's have a spirited debated I don't it doesn't have to be my opinion, and we're I'm trying to figure out my opinion, and how are we going to find that out if we don't like this is what's and you know, I'm working on a show about this, like this is why I don't this canceling every speaker at every college because they made one mistake and canceling people because they you know, it's just it's not healthy for our brain development. You know, it's like Rutgers they boycotted condo Lesa Rice. It's like, you don't have to agree with everything she's ever done, her everything she's ever said, I get a little bit tricky about like paying people and culture. I don't think you should be like paid to be on camp, but you know, but people should be exposed to stuff to know. I don't agree with that. And here's why, you know, we're infantilizing ourselves to not even be exposed to things that we disagree with, you know, because then what do we how do we know what our enemy is? How do we know what we believe if we don't know what we disagree with? So, you know, and maybe that's just a comedian mindset, but I do believe a lot of people shouldn't exist, but if they do exist, I should kind of know what I'm up against, you know. And it's so tricky for me. It's like I I personally would never want and called her to be invited to a college. Came, I agree, but I'm kind of leasa Rice, Sure, I think that's different. I agree with you because I'm like, wait a minute, she also served our country honorably. You don't have to agree with every decision she ever made. How could we ever agree with every decision any policy? And I have a question, what did you do with Iraq? Why? How would you do it differently. Now go in and challenger, ask her a question, challenge ask questions. Also the fact that most of us, who have never had to make a life or death decision for other American citizens judge how it's like, come on, you know the whole thing. I want to learn from those people and learn from their mistakes, whether or not there and and their successes, whether or not people I agree with. That's so interesting. So what happens from Annaberg to like roasts, writer's rooms, comedy specials, Like how does that happen? I don't know, that's really I I came out here, I did that show punked, you know that happens? And then I started doing stand up from there, and then I had this weird knack for writing like super me jokes, which is something I'm super proud of. It kind of a dubious honor, but just from growing up in a homes that were all passive, aggressive and we showed love by insulting each other in the moment, it was just yeah, I started writing jokes and submitting to the roasts, and they wouldn't hire me. They said, it's five dudes, they don't hire women. And I kind of just was like, I wrote sixteen pages of jokes for the I think it was the Flavor Flavor roast, and there were a couple of jokes in it that they wanted to use, so they had to hire me. And they thought they were just gonna hire me for the week, and I just kept just working harder than anybody. I would just like show up like ten pages of jokes every day, and I was just up all night just trying to And then they extended me a week. And then I did a roast for like a charity roast. We filmed it and they were like, okay, you can be on the roast. So I booked one. I think it was Larry the Cable Guy, and then they said, no, never mind, we already have a girl. We don't need a girl. So I got hired and then I got forbid. It was for the box has been checked, stand down, We're good. And then so it took a little bit of time, and then I did the Joan Rivers roast and then I think was the first one that and then that's what got me that our special. I had already had my special kind of ready. And then yeah, I have to tell you, so my dad was a I mean not was isn't. He's still with us, but he's retired. My dad was a photographer for I don't know, forty fifty years. My dad and he photographed Joan Rivers for like forty years. And when I told my parents that you were coming on the podcast, my dad was like, God, her roast was funny. Joan loved that, and it was just like it was like so sweet. My parents were like so jazzed about this, and it makes me. I mean, I think it's important, you know, like, as we're in this moment of like there's not enough women on television, there's not enough women in movies, concur all over it. But like, let's not forget the women that did, Like I'm kind of obsessed with Like when people like there's no women in movies, I wonder if to be more is just like I made like a billion dollars for Hollywood in the nineties, Like I start of every movie I made was a giant hit. I mean, granted, I think we need to look at like we need more than her, but yeah, of course, but I think what's happening there is that because guys are like, what do you mean plenty of women are movies and we have to go, oh, yeah, no, we know, but we want them to be like other types of roles well, and then it's also helpful to show them things like yeah, but when women have a hundred speaking parts out of a thousand, and when like two yeah, when two movies pass the Bedshiel tests like you and we get why they may not see it, but we would like better. I remember talking about pay equity and talking about how women of color make less money than white women, which is just true. It's just true. Like math, it's funny that one plus one equals to always. And I remember talking about that, like, you know, on Instagram on the equal pay Day thing, and somebody had the nerve to be like Oprah is a billionaire, and I was like, you know, one black billionaire and you think that things are okay for black women in the world, Like, oh my god. And I feel a little bit like that when men say like, look at you know, I'm like, yeah, but if you're you're not looking at the name one, guys, come on, I know, and I think And it was recently having conversation with a movie executive guy and he was just like, look, we're offering you know, jobs to women's direct movies, but like they can't do it. They keep saying no, And that was what I was worried. The next problem was going to be is women are going to be offered jobs, but they can't take them because they're in the jobs in New Zealand for eight months and there's no childcare. So it's like there's it's this tricky thing in this moment where it's like, Okay, now people are finally I don't care what your motive is if you're being forced to do it or shame to do it, fine for now, but you're being forced to hire women or you're finally our hiring women just because the first one says no because she just had a baby, and you don't then get childcare on the set make it possible for her to say yes, yes, Because if you're offering her a movie for eight months in New Zealand and she can't bring her children, you're actually not offerhand. If you're not, it's not real, it's not so unless there's childcare on sets. I I don't know how we can have this conversation, you know, because women have to be in a position where they can actually say yes or are the work days are crazy? It's like working in twelve hours is a crazy thing. Like how about we, you know, sit down with the line producers and say, hey, what if we're having eight hour days? Or break them up, or have childcare on French hours, or figure out a way that, you know, if a woman is three months pregnant and it's a three month job, that she can say yes, and she can go to her doctor's appointments and we can figure out ways to shoot nights or whatever nights for a pregnant woman. I've obviously never been pregnant, but figuring out a way that she can, you know, someone can stand in for her for two hours when she goes and gets her sonogram. I don't know, I'm just making up doctor's appointments for fake pregnant women in my head. But but yes, it just shouldn't be that complicated. The hours are designed for dudes, you know, and the environment is designed for dudes. So how does that work now? Because you you know, you do run writers. I mean, you created your own show, you created two Broke Girl, You've you've like you've gone on and on and done all of these incredible things. Like, how does it work for you to be a showrunner? For me, now, my thing is I just sit down with my line producer, and I sit down with all my staff, and I'm like, if you need to leave, leave, I'm usually done in a writer's room at five for parents so that they can I mean every woman when they come in, we have a very straight conversation. What's that I want to write a show. It's a nightmare and I sometimes go home and end up doing more work. But the idea is like I want moms to say yes, and I moms, I'm just this is maybe sexist. Make the best employees because they can get so much done. There's like so high functioning. You just developed the skill to be able to multitask and do things. I've been watching some of my closest friends become moms over the last two years, and like, women who I already thought were superhuman have leveled up in a way where I'm just like, what is happening? And also, could we give moms control of everything? This is for ten years? This is just a social experiment, and I swear to God the whole world would just everyone will be fed, everything will be handled, every all the trains will run on time. It's like and just and this is a generalization, obviously, don't don't drag me in the comments. Like everyone mom makes incredible directors. They're just great at managing tantrums and emotions, and everyone's fed and everyone's lunch on time, and we get all the coverage we need and they're just calm, cool and collected through everything. You know. It's just like so for me, I just want to make sure that moms stay and say yes, and then I can promise them you will be done at three thirty every day. If you need to leave a three thirty to go pick up your kid, fine, because a lot of times, Mom, and what I try to do my hours as nine am to four. There's this weird for no reason at all thing in l A where everything starts at ten. I don't know why. There's a lot of like outdated obsolete systems in l A that where I think invented by men that I think women need to just start thinking about. Because women usually drop their kids off at school at eight thirty, so then they have this weird hour and a half window and then you start work at ten, and then their kid needs to be picked up at three or three thirty, or if they have after school for four thirty. I'm learning a lot about this, so I'd like to start my writers room at nine so moms can come directly from and then go pick up their kids from school at three thirty. And I want people to go home. I want them to have lives. Like for art to imitate life, people have to have a life, and you want them to go home and fight with their husbands, and I just like that. I want to put on a billboard for art to imitate life, you have to have a life to we have this thing in our head where we're just work all day, work all day. What are you writing about? Where are you? Where are you getting your ideas? Like I made that say I made that mistake for the longest time. The first TV show I did was to answer your question about the codependent rock Bottom. It was really that I couldn't fire people, I couldn't say no to people. I was so worried about employees and people like this was an NBC show that I did that I was on and I was so much more concerned with everybody liking me than making a good product that I you know, I was just like, I just I can't say no to that. I don't want to say no to anyone's pitch. I don't want anyone to be mad at me. And I forgot about not wanting the viewers to be mad at me. I was just so I wanted to be like so bad. I was like, how come I'm the writers that are going for drinks? How come I'm not invited? I just want that. Like, I was just like so trying to micromanage everybody's feelings. But you know, to that end, I was working so much and so hard that when people would pitch in the room, like oh, what if the character, like you know, goes to this bridle shower, I was like, no one goes to a bridle shower, And they're like, yeah, they do. You don't because you don't have a life, and it limits the number of stories you can tell, the kind of experiences you can have in the kind of emotional bandwidth that you're available to write with. If you don't actually go out and make mistakes and have a life and go to the grocery store and you know, run into strangers and fight with homeless people or whatever it is, you know, you can You're limited in your ability as an artist if you don't have a life, which is so hard for me because I tend to hide behind work and I'm working, but I'm in front of my computer and I just have to work. You're like, no, no, I'm working. This is why I'm not doing something else. Sometimes the best writing is just going to the mall and walking around. Some of the best stand up, some of the best any art. It's just like going to the park and like starting a conversation with a stranger. Yes, you know, and we just don't do that, you know. So I'm really trying to force myself and this is so pathetic, but like twice a week, I'll just be like, I'm gonna go to the movies get out because it's like we're just like I'm just gonna watch my Netflix, I'm gonna watch my Amazon, and I'm just gonna stay in and I'm just gonna coocoom. But I'm just like, you know, the other day I went to like I was like, I'm gonna go to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena and I'm gonna like, oh my god, anytime you want to go every place, and I'm person you don't even I will show I have a store in my house of antique courses. I will show you the the cataloged online photographic storage unit. You don't have it. I have a problem. I went. I can't get Etsy. I can't My fancy had to take it off my phone. Yeah, I had delete the app. You can't stop Cherish. I have a real problem with Stay Never. I can't stop buying mid sent in modern owls. That's my current. Oh my god, I have to show you pictures of the store. Okay, okay. On on my drive home from Colorado. I go to Colorado every Memorial Day with my best friends. It's like our thing cool where in Colorado we go to tell your ride. There's a documentary film festival. They're called Mountain Film. It's four days long and it's literally just docs and short films and environmental films and adventure films. It's like the thing that recharges me to do the work. And we've been going for ten years, and like we started as eight friends and now we're like forty people from extending friend circles and people's kids, and I don't know how to do something. It's honestly, come with us. You can join if you want to think about it for three days before, don't talk to me about it for a while. Yes, we road trip and like this year, we drove through Sudona States, don't hid the red Rocks, then went to tell your right. We spend like you know, six seven days and then we come back. But the day back is always like a nightmare because we do it in one shot and so it's like fifteen hours. But you just power through it because on the way home you're not like excited to go somewhere. You just want to be in your own bed. But we found this little cafe this year on the way home that is hoarder's dream and it's just owls. It's just awl sta. What's it? I have pictures of it. I don't remember the name, but I literally have so many pictures in my phone. I will show you and everything is for sale. Oh my god, I will take you. I will take you. It is ridiculous. This happened for a reason. I love that ship. It's all I care about. I just I think it's like it's weird for me, Like I grew up poor, and I think it took me so long to understand, like make your space special you know, like your office, your home, whatever it is. I don't spend money on shoes as you can tell, or person as you can tell. Thank you, I just up for you and little things that just spark joy. I did it. I did it. Took me this long to quote Marie Conda, what I don't want to. I have a couple more questions about work things because God, well I just think that, like your whole career is so inspiring and it's a person who is paralyzed to make my own things. I'm like hoping to absorb some of your motivation by osmosis as I deal with my codependency paralyzing side effect of whatever my childhood was. So I'm curious about what the experience was like doing Roseanne and like, oh yeah, totally I can talk about that. Yeah, I don't give a ship. I mean, like I know, for me, like I'll just say to you, like growing up, that was one of my favorite shows to watch, like Roseanne, Murphy Brown, U wee look Fortune. I was like I was a small wonder girl. Puzzles were just fun. Yeah, small Wonder Mr Belvetdere was my God. The fact that that's a show imagine. I'm one of my favorite games is pitched that show. Now go pitch, Mr Belvedere right now, say so if you went crazy, they'd be like, do you want to what your pardon? It's a child, it's a robot. Um. So after the election, I don't have to tell you, it was a lot, you know, and I went to this kind of like what do we do? Symposium and you know, people were like, let's make cupcakes and let's plan parenthood, which yes, of course, but I was just like, let's move to Texas and vote there. Like I just was like, I I just you know, um, and we all expressed our things in different ways, and um, I I didn't know what to do with myself and I didn't know how to express myself. And I was sort of learning about what happened. And my brother lives in London, so I kind of learned about Brexit and I kind of was like, okay, this was a thing. And then uh, simultaneously, I mean a couple of months prior, in fact, Michelle Obama did this conference call with showrunners. Um, I don't know who's on, and I'm still like trying to find who else was on the call with me, but it was a conference call and I addressed up for it. I put on my like forest green uh. Max Mara Blazer was very excited to talk to her, and she explained her last year in the White House, and she said that we can now link marriage equality passing to will and grace. And first I had heard that in writer's rooms, we kind of run around and go like, we're not careering cancer. If I can put the joke up, who cares? Just cast this person. It's like, you're it's sort of don't overthink it. We're not carrying cancer. That's literally we say it's not rocket science. And then when I heard the culture, I was like, we need to really be more careful about what we put on television and what we say, etcetera. And were you what were you working on at that time? Were you still running Two Broke Girls or were you done with that? Like where to Brols? I think was done. I was touring, I was doing stand up. I had written a book at that point, I had just done this. When you wrote Everything's fine or I'm fine, I'm fine. Yeah, everything's fine. That should be the next one. Everything's fine, everything I swear I'm fine. Another last Yeah, everything's fine. Um And I had done a movie about neurology called The Female Brain, So I just did that with Neil Brennan. Ily love to talk about hest. So he's the greatest. I mean, I don't know him personally, but like you should have, you would love you would you would love the best. Also will tell you I'm like a very shameless fanboy, and like when things that I'm excited about come up, my face gets a little read like I'm like, he's really great, and I'm like I should calm down. Neil's the best and he's the smartest and I'm so lucky that that we got to do that together. And um, so yeah, I made a movie about neurology and that for no money, even in the kind of movie and lost money. And then I wrote this book which was like a labor of love and was so hard and emotionally training. And then it was sort of like the election happened and it was like, uh, I was probably about to do something like frivolouss like just as a break, and then it was like the election happened, and it became very clear that we that Hollywood is in an echo chamber. And that we were all making shows for each other and the Red States were not watching, but you know they're watching USA and they're sports, and we're making shows for each other and putting on little talent shows in our living room for each other, and that we write characters that are sort of elitist and have elitist problems and that sound like us and that talk like us. And a big conversation that was happening, as these are people that did not feel seen or heard, and they made themselves be seen and heard by the way that they voted. And if they were just reflected more in culture and in the Zeitgeists, maybe they would not have voted the way that they voted. Um, and they felt like this man came in and were speaking directly to them because we don't speak to them because we think they're stupid. Well, and I also think for me, if I may, I don't even I And look, I'm not pretending to speak for anyone else. I don't think anyone is stupid. I don't think you do. I think that the mistake that we've made is that when we talk about who needs help and and relative privilege and all these things, we assume that people who may not be suffering as much as this other group of people, but who are still suffering, know that when we talk about advocating for the people suffering the most, we're also going to advocate for them. But if we're not saying we're advocating for everybody, then people don't know. And then all they hear is all you care about is those people over there, and you don't care about us, and it creates this kind of war of odds. And I had to look back and go like, oh, I need to make sure that whenever I'm talking about my experience as a woman with sexual harassment and assault at work, with sexism in the workplace, with whatever else it is I've gone through in my life, I have to make sure that in every single one of those conversations I have, I thank the great men who've been behind me because I'm not having a war on men. I'm having a war on bad behavior and bad guys and the bad women. Of course, you know what I mean, Like, no one will have that conversation either. Yeah, we have to be able to say some women are part of there's a lot of women that saw this ship happening and did nothing there's a lot of women that profited off this stuff. There's a lot of women that knew, you know, and that's okay. So I think it's very much the good women and the good men against the bad women and the bad men. And that's the duality that I think probably absolutely, And I mean it's interesting, like even you know, on my first show, there were a group of us girls who were super tight from the beginning, and our creepy boss very specifically like worked to drive a wedge between all of us. But we were twenty one and and we didn't know that that's what was happening. And so he would say, well, this person said this about you, and this person thought about you, and these two think this about you, and we believed it because like with that guy, yeah, like what what adult would behave that way? Right? So then eventually we all were like ready to murder each other, and we sat down and we were like we got to talk about this. What the fuck? And we all kind of realized what had happened, and then we were like, oh, and we were like, what a stupid decision because he won in the short term, but in the long term, like we now are united in a way that we would go to war for each other, and that will never change. And so when I think about women who can be toxic, I have to look at situations I've been in with other women toxic, and I go oh, because women have been encouraged by these systems that men in power. Again, not all men men in power have created that have been designed to keep us out. So we've always been told there's room for one of you, one of you will succeist scarcity complex of like we all have to compete with each other. And I'm I'm very relieved that at least I feel I believe, I would like to believe, maybe I idealistically believe that we're leaving this era of competition among women, were moving into an era of serious collaboration among women. It's also just bad science. It's like when we compete with each other, we make less money the more when everyone succeeds, everyone succeeds. It's just sort of like we just have to like rewire our brains. So when she wins, I win too, whereas it used to be if she wins, I lose. Yeah, And it's like but that's not it's just it's just bad business. And again it's like the data says that companies who have more diversity and general race are the most profit to make money. Just be That's my thing is just be greedy. I don't care why you do it. It's actually greedy to hire people of color and women you make more money, do it, you know. But I think it's also important that And I mean, I'm a big Rock sand gay fan, but it's like it's important that women are allowed to be assholes, they're allowed to be flawed, their space for the real housewives, there should be space for you know. It's like I was, um, I were a glass. I think it was on his show the other day. He was saying that, you know, the who's the woman on Fresh off the Boat who did something diva like? And he was like, well, it's, you know, the first Asian woman, Like, that's a diva. Like they should be able to have a diva like they never got to have one, you know. And so I thought that was kind of interesting. And I don't know if I agree with it, and I don't know enough about it, but it's like women should be able to be assholes and mean and all that and not did not be a whole thing, you know, because when a guy who like runs a company or is the number one on the show, has like an intense day, people are like, well, he's intense. But then when a woman does it, they're like, oh, she's a bit. And it's like, but there's so much pressure for one to represent all and that's the big problem and that's so weird, and it's like, well, who cares. Yeah, it's like that woman's a bit. I told you women are. But it's like or not, or she's just a dick and that's okay. For whatever reason. Be it nature, be it nurture, be at the zeite guys, be a conditioning, be it social construction. Who cares? Don't even worry about it. Let's just move on with our day. Because if it was a guy, you would just move on with your day. We wouldn't have to turn it into something. Well, and if it was a guy, it would be an observation of him in the moment rather than a judgment of his care And that I'm curious about too. It's like with women, anything that is perceived to be negative becomes a never ending character judgments rather than a momentary interest or something that's reinforcing some huge stereotype that is like everyone down, you know, and I think that you know, it is what it is, and that is I just I think it's okay. Know. I was at this showrunner Emmy showrunner panel thing and a very famous female showrunner you know, was there and people were saying, oh, me too, it's hard to be a woman in Hollywood. Talk about it. And she slammed her fists on the table and she said, no one has been meaner to me in this business than women. Why isn't anyone talking about that? And I just like slid down into my chair, like I don't want to talk about this, but until we can say that and give love. I mean, the women that came before us, like they had to play by the rules of men, and they had to adopt traditionally masculine traits and they had to become bullies in order to just had to compete with other women. There is a generation of women that just has, you know, learned their way, and they might still be doing that because they don't know any other way. And I try to have love and compassion for internalized misogyny and to try to look at my own sometimes and admit it, you know. And I think about like how proud I was in my twenties that like all the boys would be like, you're one of us. Yeah. I was like, yeah, it's yeah totally. And I'm like, oh wow, I I internalized that for sure. And look, and I also think it's important to be like I am really because of my codependence recovery, I have to be what a lot of people would think is a bit a lot. I have to say, like, you know what, I have twenty minutes to talk about this, what's up? You know what? I gotta go. This is I'm a capacity for how much I can talk or like, you know what, I can't do that right, Like I'm sure a lot of people go like Whitney is kind of a bit, but I have to have strong boundaries in order to keep the trains running on time and in order to have a modicum of mental health and so I can get us all out of here at five o'clock. Like I kind of can't hear about your weekend, Hey, what's up? How I don't ask people out their weekends unless it's like in the store, you know, like unless it's a friend. Otherwise you have to do that. You walk in the writer's room. By the time you hear about everyone's weekend, it's one fifteen, and then the nicest thing I can do is get you out of here at three thirties. So, like, I also just when we think women are difficult or toxic or bitches, they might just kind of like be busy and bea and care of themselves and be trying to be busy responsibly totally or responsible business feels like a good goal to set totally, you know. So, but I think it's a lot of people interpret strong boundaries as rejections or criticisms or bit you know. So, it's like, but I do think it's we have to be able to be a make space for women that are fucking mean or competitive and whatever the reason, that's okay, and it doesn't have to reinforce the total I really try to have grace for people, unless you're like one of those fuckers marching in Charlottesville, Like if you have internalized misogyny or you didn't know something or you didn't realize that you were upholding some kind of supremacy or patriot whatever, we've all been there. I have a lot of grace for you. I'm just like, do you want to come talk about it? Yeah? Should we grow together? That's your Like, I don't know. I've had women be really nasty to me, and it's taken me a while to go, like, you know what you thought I was taking something from you? I and whether it was mirage or whether it was true, which I don't think. So it was a time where it didn't seem like there was enough space for all of us, and it was like there was one seat in the musical chairs and it just seems like I took it. And that was a totally logical reaction given what you saw, because no one ever encouraged us to pull up more chairs never, that's all. And now we're changing. Totally get it. So you talk about being in the writer's room, now that's on good people. Yeah, but that's not Yeah, do you want me to finish the Roseanne all? Yeah, I forgot if you want. I mean, I was just real quick for anyone who's still like whatever happened with that? So basically we weren't smoothing over it that I didn't want you to think. I didn't want you to think I was like, I didn't I was just like, oh, the writer's room, let's talk about that. When he was changing the subject to my attention span is like, definitely, I'm a little bit like a child. Well there, it's gonna be girl like I get excited. I don't. And it's also, yeah, people are gonna be like, well when you avoided it and that was convenient, we segwade. Um, I like that. We're just trolling herself. We're not even good, not even good soul. I've learned. I'm really not good at it. Um. But in my brain it's all missbelled and none of it's grammatically correct. But um. But so I think we all kind of are like, Okay, this opportunity is happening, and these are this show is going to be in the right. First of all, it was a show that gives visibility to people that are low income, a class that is not on television a lot. And then it's not usually portrayed accurately. It's usually a bunch of elitist rich writers writing for pretend fake poor people that are like wearing a scotta in every scene for some reason and have a house in Brentwood. But they're like have money problems. And I think that Roseanne was a show that one of the big themes was just because report doesn't mean we're stupid, and I think there was a lot of deplorable and they're idiots and they're stupid, and you know, I mean, if you're getting fake news that, why wouldn't you believe the news is real? I mean, that's the other really just sad thing that was going on. I had not read Rosan's tweets, the prior ones. I didn't even I did not follow her, which was a weird thing on my part, I guess. And we had had a long conversation and she actually was a Bernie supporter, and then she was a blow it up person, which I'm not a fan of that mentality, but it was kind of like, okay, like we can at least be in a room together, because that's what wasn't happening is people. I mean, my family hasn't spoken since I know so many people whose some family voted for Trump and they just did not. I mean, families were being torn apart, and we really wanted to tell the story about families being torn apart and can you be in the same room if you voted differently at the time a lot of people could not, and so that was a really interesting story to conversation to try to have it's really important conversation. And we were like, people are gonna watch this. It's going to get in the Red States. A lot of our shows don't get into the Red States. And Michelle Obama had just said what you put on TV moves the needle. So we were just like, all right, you know, wanted Psykes and nor McDonald and Morgan Murphy and all these people that you know, whose minds I really respect, you know, wanted to get on board. And we were like, luck, we get to get our kind of ideas into the Red States. Like that's the people that actually need to hear it. We're not going to just be preaching to the fire we had. And also to do that, I would imagine the goal was to like do that respectfully to yeah people, to accurately represent people the idea. And then we had a gender nonconforming grandson on the show and it was like, oh my god, this is going to get into the Red States and like have this conversation about tolerance and we're going to talk about immigration and undocumented labor, and you know, Dan was getting his jobs taken it. You know, there, I just did air quotes, and you know, I think it would be a really interesting conversation about healthcare and they didn't have health insurance in the opioid crisis, and she had an opioid addiction. And that's a huge conversation that a lot of people, it's just can't have right now. But it's people don't have insurance sitting there stealing their kids medication OxyContin from their cavity, Like it's what's going on is so nuts. And we really wanted to be able to express that, and we worked really hard to do that. So those were the motives behind it. Although it did not end as planned, it was something that I think we really you know, wanted to be healing and ended up making a whole new wound. But I think interestingly, because we look back and we're like, okay, our motive was to kind of show that something this is not okay. A tolerance is not okay. Racism is not okay. Right, And although not in the package, we thought it would come in in a way. Channing Dungee, who ran ABC saying no to this very lucrative thing that happened was the message was in a up being the biggest news story I think in a really long you know, so it's sort of ended up kind of maybe being the ending It needed to be right to have someone say we're not going to prioritize financial gain over publicly saying we do not condone this. We do not condone this, no matter how much money we make from it. Maybe that's what needed to be heard and seen more than the show. I don't I don't know. Maybe that's what I just teld myself to justify that year. I love, you know, I mean, but I hear that. And look, at the end of the day, when you when you have an experience and it doesn't work out in the idealized way that you thought it would, you want to figure out what the purpose was. Yeah, yeah, totally, And but I totally I really did. I wanted to learn how to make a good multi camp because that's hard to do, and Rosanna is one of the very few truly great ones, just quality wise. And I wanted to understand. I mean, to me, I really want to understand what happened in the country. I didn't want to throw judgment. I didn't want to make assumptions I really wanted to understand, and you know, to me, like I travel around this country, I meet people, and it made me learn. You know, I get why people need guns. I get it. I don't think everyone should have one. I have, you know, very complicated feelings about it. But when you go to people's homes and you know, rural areas and a lot of these people are scared of police. A lot of people have guns because they're scared of police and if they call the pol you know what I mean. And you're asking a lot of people, and I think there's something we forget. When you're saying two people were taking your gun, A lot of them says, you're not going to let me protect my family. They don't have the alarm systems we have. They don't, you know. So for me, I was naive around that, and I just I wanted to immerse myself in it so that I could actually learn about it, so that I can actually know what I'm talking about and not just be full of rage and self righteous indignation all the time. Totally, and I think it's really important, you know. I hadn't really considered it, but I was talking to my friend Olivia, and she said to me. She was like, it's so important when you talk about advocacy around gun control because you're like the only gun owner I know. And I was like, oh, really wow, And I hadn't thought about that. But like I grew up in l A. Then I spent two and a half years and a five thousand person town in central California. My dad grew up in Canada and spent every summer on a farm, like literally two doors down from a chicken slaughterhouse. So when I was twelve, my dad gave me my first twenty two rifle. That's like a joyous thing for us. We go to the outdoor shooting range together. It's it's a hobby, you know. It's like, dude, that's so important. Yeah, and I love it. Like, by the way, three days before Parkland happened, I was on a range day with all my buddies, two of whom are green berets. Like we were shooting tactical weapons, Like I was toting around an A R fifteen all day. But I don't mean, I mean, it's great that you speak for what you speak, but I think because I have done so much work with police and military. Also, like I don't need to own that gun. No civilian needs to own that gun. I don't know a single person in the police force, SWAT who I've trained with, or the military I've worked with who thinks that any normal human being should own that gun. And also like, that's where I think the rationale comes in. It's like, I own a gun because I have received credible death threat. I know the LPD told me to get a gun, and I just like, haven't you done it? And like, at the end of the day, I hope I never have to use it, but just in case I do, I've taken tests, i went through the concealed carry permit course, I've been certified by the sheriff. Like, god forbid I ever had to use it. I want the police to know I am like the most qualified. I didn't have to do any of that. So I'm like, if you're not a crazy person, you should be willing to do all the ship just all of it. You should be willing to do a background check, you should be willing to wait, you should be willing to take a test. You should be like I mean, it shouldn't be easier to own a gun than to drink car it's like it's crazy to me. So I think that figuring out ways to put people in these conversations and to realize they don't have to be enemies feels really important. And I guess like that's a tangential way of just saying I really respect the goal that you set for that experience, to say, how do we get a bunch of people to talk about things differently to realize they're more alike than they are different. Yeah, to me, that's the idea. If we sit in a room for we're gonna find things. It's like, you know, it's not to get into supervolatile subjects. It's like pro life people like we both agree babies shouldn't die. Yeah, we both agree no one should kill babies. We just disagree on the definition of what that is. Like like you know what I mean, it's like as soon as you're taught, I mean, there's certain people that maybe you can't even start to engage with, but it really I really want to practice the muscle of because I just feel like with social media now and how again, we only follow the people want to follow. We only listen to the things we want to listen to. This like the self righteous narcissism of everyone should have the same values that I have all the time, even though they have completely different circumstances and neurology, childhood circumstances. It's just like a crazy thing to expect everybody to have my values. And that's part of the reason I think that I take issue with some of the laws that the other side is trying to push forward, is I'm like, you expect everyone to have your values. You expect everyone to believe what you believe. You think we should make medical decisions for women and marital decisions for human's based on your personal beliefs, not even based on science, not even based on public health research, Like we gotta get a little saner here, and I'll hear you. I'm willing to hear you. But it's also such a big to me, Like I'm always like, you know, it's like any problem in a company or in a story if you're writing a script, like the problem is always at the top, the problem is always in the root, you know. So for me, it's like the biggest problem right now. It's like that I feel like nobody's talking about is the fact. I mean, people are talking about it, but not in a way that's like meaningful in terms of like people are getting information is not true. So it's like if you heard something untrue about me and we're mad at me about it, Like I don't blame you because like how would you know? Of course you would make that judgment based on misinformation. So it's like like, I mean, everyone's just like Facebook is just our new addiction and like the oxygen we breathe, and it's just like for things to be able to put out that just aren't true, like not to talk too much about Rose. It's like a lot of the things that the people that were in a fight with they truly think are are true. So how can I be mad at you for just not knowing that? By the way, I had this experience recently, and like I'm a very pro choice person. I'm like, listen, I don't even need people to know what my choice personally for me would be. I'm just gonna say I have no right to make a choice for you, Like it's none of my fucking business. Nobody speats up to a woman in her doctor period. End of story, Goodbye, We're talking about healthcare. That's just what I think, and I think I'm pretty well informed on the subject and was just told on a call similar to the one you were talking about. It was like an all hands on deck, what are we gonna do? Like Ney Roll Planned parenthood? How do we advocate? But I was just told by a fucking doctor on one of those calls that, like, the heartbeat bill is total bullshit because there's there is no heartbeat, that a zigo doesn't have a heartbeat like six weeks, that what you're hearing is actually the pulse. It's the electrical impulse of the mom's heartbeat. And I was like, wait, what? And I didn't know that. I didn't know that we're literally attacking a mother for her own heartbeat. I was. I was like, how did I not know that? I'm an adult? Like wait? And I realized that there's so much information that I don't either, And so I send you Imagine how little you can play other people for not having it works three jobs and they're just trying to get food on the table, and they're just like I want to watch big Bank theory go to bed. And then I think about us, and I think about how many scenes we've seen in shows and movies where the couple goes and they're like, there's your baby's heartbeat, and it's like, there's no doctor saying, well, that's the electoral impulse of your heartbeat beginning to travel to your uterus, and in another X number of weeks, the fetus will eventually develop organs and it will have a heartbeat of its own. Like, I've never seen that. So that's when I go, hey, artists put that scene in Game of Thrones. Obviously not the right show, but what is the big for the season ten of Game of Thrones where the dragons are having sonogram? I mean, honestly, it seems like people weren't that happy with the ending, so why not put in something equally is polarizing. But it's like, you know, that's when it's like, Okay, this is where artists really get to broadcast something and make it mainstream. You know, I, you have done a new comedy special and you are working on good people. Yeah, you're doing that with Lee Daniel. I know, like, oh my god, I think he's so cool. We sat next to each other at this dinner thing in New York and I literally was so excited that I couldn't talk to him, like a normal person. So I just didn't. I said like two or three oddly timed things. I was like, I just shook my head and was like, nope, I'm just gonna stop. It's interesting to watch people's reactions to him, because they either kind of shut down or they talk like they start to kind of yeah, you're just like you're like just yeah, just and when you know it with people who you know, we're like, what's happening to you? Like what when I first met that that happens to me? I got so nervous that I started talking to a Southern accent, like for no reason, were like hey girls. I was like, so it's you're such a hero man like I've never seen Like it was so weird, and I was just like I'm so sorry, I cannot stop. Like I was just like can I just like the wires crossed and I had like an out of body experience and I was like looking down at myself, being like your bombing Like I had that with Kate McKinnon. Oh, I just I'm such a fan of her, but she's also very doesn't need to like impress you because she already has free like she I blathered like puked all over. It was bad. I had the out of body experience looking down on myself, not speaking in a Southern accent, but speaking like someone had dosed me with speed. And I was just like, oh my god, I think you're so amazing, and like this thing was so funny, and and it just kept going and she stood there and like eventually she just started to get a little wider, and I was like, this is bad. This is really bad. This is I sometimes go the other way because, especially with people like Kate McKinnon, where I'm like, I know, you get these compliments all day, so I'm gonna go the other direction and just not talk about your work because you it must be boring having to go like thank you, thank you, like all day. I'll just like, so, what's up? And then I just come off like super rude, like I don't know who they are, but really just trying to like not be a fan. And then I'm just like, this is my problem with people who I admire so much, who I don't have a rapport with, Like we have a rapport. We like DM about crazy things and animals and so like I feel I felt at ease when you got here today with people who I love so much, who I don't know how to be at ease with. I short circuit all the time. And Jenny, my best friend I was talking about literally at things, has like grabbed me by the forum and been like, you cannot behave this way. You are also a famous person. And I'm like and I'm like, but I'm not like she's She's the and I'm having this like deep just so disaster panic, and well here's my thing. I go like, Okay, you're an actress, act like you've got it to go. Like if you were in a scene where someone had to pull it together, just do that scene. Like that's what I try to do. Just like write the scene in your head that you'd want to be in right now with this famous person that you admire and figure out to pull your ship. Yet but I ignore, I mean a lot of people like you will just I just avoid people that I admire and they're like hi, and I'm like sorry, I just I can't can't get away from me. But yeah, Lee is the greatest and he is um, he is so fearless and he is so you know, it's it's interesting because you know this moment where there's lots of really flammable topics, and I think a lot of people feel very shut down and feel like they can't ask questions because they don't want to be wrong. And a lot of incredible, incredible progress is happening, but we kind of wanted to explore, you know, just there's a lot of opinions that aren't being heard, and I think, you know, we get obsessed with sort of voices that aren't being heard and and allowing people to be wrong because how else are you going to know? And I think, you know, ignorance hides in the shadows and a lot of times with my own off, like you know, one of my best friends is transgender, and I like I get things wrong all the time, and I just like I'm just learning, just like asked, because there's if there's a new thing that I don't know, how else am I going to find out? I'm not I'm you know, I'm on all the emails and the glad and that, but there's sometimes there's words that you're not going to find out what the right word is to say if you don't ask or make a mistake, you know. So we're kind of just like trying to make space for people that aren't caught up and that might not know and that are still trying to understand. So what is the show about? The show is about? So I go all over the country and perform in colleges, and I found that every time I went to a college or like you can't talk about this and you can't say this, and these people are protesting and there's this problem, I'd always be like, what's the drama on campus? You know? And you know, one of the big ones was there was a transgender boy that wanted to play football and they wouldn't let him because it was too dangerous. And then also the hormones and that's technically doping and the da da da, And I just was like, whoa. And there's an office called the Ambudsman's Office and their job job is to deal with stuff like that. And because my brain, I was just like, who is the poor bastard who has to deal with this freaking conundrum? You know? And there's a white girl with dreadlocks and people are upset about it, and the mascot is racist, it's a Native American caricature, and people are upset, like who is to deal with that? You know? You know, I just that was so fascinating. What's the filter for those problems? Yes? And the person that just has to go, yeah, we have a racist mascot, Like what are we gonna do about? Like I was just so in this moment of change. Do we take down the Robberty Lee statue? Do we take down the Thomas Jefferson statute? Do we still teach Roman Polanski in film school? Do we still teach Dega and Picasso and Charles Bukowski? And do we take the N word out of Huck Finn? Like I can argue both sides and a lot of Roman Plansky, I can't really but that that that feels like we just were good. I think we should just call it on him. But you know, I think that there's a lot of really interesting conversations to be had, in a lot of questions to be asked. That when I don't know the answer to something, that's usually what I want to make a show about it or write something about it, because it's something that is, you know, a fair fight. I'm obsessed with a fair fight and with a conundrum that doesn't have a clean answer. You know. With football, it's like should the trans kid play football. I'm I don't think anyone to play football. There's this documentary that you have to see that I got to see a mountain foam called Changing the Game, and it is about well, it starts off being about three and then a fourth athlete comes in, but three transgender athletes in three different states going through high school sports and the state to state differences and the policies that affect these kids and the teams they can and cannot play on, and whether or not they can be recognized, and the advocacy that they're all working on, and like eighties so special of it. Yeah, I'm gonna make it because it's because it's also there's like and these people are actually heroes because there's a lot of parents, a lot of these ammitments, a lot of parents will not provide the medications that the trans kids need, so the college is actually provided. But it's like, and then with these sports organizations, I don't even know what they're called, they consider testosterone doping, but that's what a transperson would be, you know, So it's so company And then would it be that way if it was a trans female and she was on estrogen, would she be doping? Like but cheerleading and and and you know, and women's that no one gives a shit about so they don't have any money, right, And then I got sort of fascinated by and these are all really uncomfortable conversations to have it. I'm sure you guys are gonna yell at me on, but it's like cheerleading, like is it good? Is it bad? But as soon as it's not a traditional size zero, it's progress, you know. And so it's like a lot of people like, we want cheerleading to go. But as soon as there's a body, there's a Lizzo on the team, we're like, this is awesome. And this is showing, you know, women that we can have different bodies, and it's showing young people that not everyone has to look a certain wet you know. So it's very complicated, very completing. A human is completed a nightmare. But there's someone whose job is to answer. You know, there's kids, So it shows about that. Awful shows about that. And it's about three generations of women that all have different of experiences in different takes because you know, and I don't want to rile anybody up, but when the z story happened, I had some girlfriends who were like, what's what's the problem. That's every day I've ever been on. And then I had some girlfriends that were like, that's wrong and that's an abuse power. And then I had some women They're like, what what the fun? It was just seeing those different reactions, not putting any judgments on any of them, but the different strata of reactions I think all are interesting in one place. So it's three generations of women. Um, Lisa Kudra plays the ambas, you know, who has to kind of ultimately I know, I know, and are you shooting this show? It's here? Can I just like come ut a day or seven? And it's oh, that's so she's just beyond comprehension. Um. But it's really tricky subject monit and really fine lines and exploring all these things. Then we might not have the answer. But I think after people watch it, they'll argue and they'll agree with some people and won't agree with other people, and maybe that's okay, that's so great. Yeah, so we'll see like opening a space for a dialogue. I'm not good at like putting my stuff on social media and then being in fights with you know, I think For me, I like to sublimate it into characters or fiction or stand up because I'm not I'm not good. I get too emotional and I can't like follow up on social media in a way that's responsible enough. So I don't like I get that it's too I try to that. That's one other thing I will say is like really nice about stories. It's like you can post entire stories about issues and news and things, but like nobody can comment on them, and it's a little bit of a way to protect yourself more, you know. And I also just I'm I also I'm also learning, you know. I'm also so imperfect about the stuff that like one day you kind of believe one thing and then you hear this to me, it's also I don't know about and so I don't want to just like put something out there with in a very strident way and then the next day go like, oh well, actually, in this circumstance, it's that's okay. You can have a gun if it's that thing, you know, Like you know what I mean, Like complex for sure, I'm really trying to get better at um having strong opinion and understanding what I'm talking about before I say it, so I like to kind of, um, my brain is so messy around a lot of this stuff that I try to put them in characters so that it can be messy the way it is kind of in life. And so the show you're doing obviously all these characters. But then you have a new Netflix special as well, and that's you, that's me, those are my opinions, and it's called can I Touch It? So my first real question about the special is like, what do you want to touch? What's going on? It meant so many things. I talk a lot about me too, and sexual harassment. I talk a lot about subjects were not allowed to talk about. I think a big conversation in comedy right now is like can I touch that? Can I say that? Can I talk about that? Is that funny? Can we joke about that? You know? And then also, as you know, I have a robot in the show that is a robot of me that I did as kind of a weird social experiment, and I found something really interesting where I have this robot and whenever I bring her anywhere, guys will be like, can I touch it? Can I touch her? And I was like, it's amazing, how easy consent is for you in this robot like it was can I touch it? I was like, just do that with women? Like and and can I do it with pregnant women. The number of my girlfriends who are like, people touch my belly? They don't even have you turn into public grounds? So gross? Yes, like maybe just say, can I touch that? You're a handmaid? Yes? Interesting that there's more you know how to do. You know how to do it. So just treat us like or a bunch of micro chips. And if it's property, you're like, just treat me like I'm a piece of property. I guess maybe more so, never thought I would say that ever. Literally, it's so wild. Just treat me like in an animate object. Treat me with the amount of respect you would treat like like an emotionless machine, and with a new version of like draw me like one of your French girls. What you know? What is okay? Because the reason I'm stuttering because people at home obviously can't see what is going on in this fucking room. The robot is here, but only only her head on a stand is here. She also has a body and this robot who literally, you guys, it's like it's like I'm looking at Whitney and then there's two of them in the room. But the robot not only the irony of all these men, especially saying like can I touch it, is because this robot comes from a factory that makes sex robots. Yeah, they make sex robots, but they make therapy rope, they make all kinds of life like robots. Yes, they make Also I mean, look, sex drives everything. It's what the internet. Porn made the Internet, they you know, uh, innovated at the card and payment methods. It's like sex is always going to be the thing that motivated head. I saw the preview for your comedy special, and I just want to say, because you referenced porn that you're like, I've learned so much looking at like porn search history and apparently in a sex robot factory, like about what men searched for. And you're like, weird, there's like no ceo porn searches like school Girl loved it, Like like oh god, yeah, no one's like mogul um. Interesting. Interesting. You know, I was talking so much about robots, a lot about sex robouts. I talked, you know, and I think that might have been my last special I think, But I talked my last two specials. I end up talking a lot about porn. Porn is something that just fascinates me. I'm not like an ant type. I mean, it's just it is. The results are in. Yeah, I just really to use the word preview sort of a clip. Maybe I don't yeah, whatever, But I just went to this symposium with Gail Dynes, who I'm sure you would love, and she talks all about what porn is doing to our brains and our kids and how women view themselves and all of it, and it's it really is the next big health crisis. Also, just want to like drop on the table. We can think about it for three days any time. Anytime you need someone to like go to weird symposiums with you, I'm your personally. I wish I just we hadn't really hung out, and really this symposium on porn. But now, just if you're ever like I don't really want to go to that thing alone, I'll go because I go to all those things alone and I'm me too hashtag Yeah I do all of them, and so I it was pretty wild. She's got a ted talk. It's really if you're a fan of Sophia and everything she does, it's you will probably really enjoy her. I mean it's pretty wild. It's pretty it's getting to the point, and I'm sorry, maybe a lot of you tuned in because you thought I was a comedian and now this is getting really bleak, but it's getting too, literally to the point to where porn atticts are going after very young girls that aren't pedophiles, like pedophiles start. I mean, she was explaining ten to fourteen, and she goes into these prisons and she, you know, interviews rapists and they're like, I just was so desensitized by porn. The only place there was any risk or high was to move on to younger. I mean, it's like, it's so beyond comprehension how bad it is for our brains, and it really is. Hopefully there will be a day where it will be like what cigarettes used to be, Like we now go, Remember when you used to be able to like smoke inside everywhere, smoke while you were pregnant. Maybe there will be a day in our lifetimes remember when people could just watch porn whenever they wanted, Like I was crazy, Like that is sort of how bad it is for our brains um. But so I got pretty obsessed with poor my last couple of specials. I talked a lot about it, and because I was out in the streets, in these l A streets dating and it was there was there, I was getting it was a war zone out there there, the choking and the spinning, and I was like, what is all that happening? Yeah, I was saying to somebody. We had a like cool little group of people for dinner a couple of months ago, my friends and I and one of the guys was we were just having like a very frank conversation aroun all this stuff, and he was like, do you girls really think porn as a problem? And I was like hello, And I just said, like, I'm not going to call anybody out. And there's plenty people I've heard this from who aren't at this table. But the number of women who I feel like it's just become like a broken record of girls who like, actually, when you finally rarely get excited about someone you're gonna date and like you decided to become intimate with that person. The number of women who have been like, yeah, it was going great and everything was cool, and like he's super smart and whatever, and we finally had sex. Sounds like he foxs me like we're in a porn Yeah. People who were just like, it's like desensitized, it's creepy. It made It's also the people that harms the most are men, Yes, frankly, And that's and and and we do have a little bit of a problem in our culture where we always frame how something is bad for women, which is fair in a lot of ways because there's just so much bad ship for women. But I think as soon as we position it as being bad for men, that's when they'll start to Listen. A rectile dysfunction is now at thirty percent for people. It was at four percent, I want to say, twenty years ago. Checking me on that, please fact chat fact check me on that. Gale Dines will explain it to you. It is like so bad for men, and it also is it's not porn. Porn is a huge spectrum of it's millions and millions of things. It's like anything is drinking bad for you. If you have one glass of wine a week, no, If you have seven glasses of moonshine a day, yes, you know. So it's like if you're so much of this port is so sexually violent that that's where stuff gets tricky. And when an eleven year old google Google's boobs because they just want to see boobs because they're eleven, and fisting asked to mouth comes up. I don't even know what that means. But that's a big search. That's not what this eleven year old is signing up for. And that's what they then learned sexes at eleven, and they're undeveloped brains are making those kinds of wrong connect the dots connections we were talking about earlier, and it's like it has disastrous consequence. We're not talking about you, forty five year old guy who's kind of just watching Jenna Jamison masturbate or whatever you watch. I'm making things up. We're talking about the eleven year old that goes to Google and just wants to see like a naked lady, yeah, and winds up it sees some sexually violent hoving and like essentially in like torture porn. Yeah that's right. Okay, guys, we took a pea break and like we came back in and all of us are like, there she is because the robot robot does she have a name. She has a name. Her name is bear Claw. Bear Claw. It's about it's the reverence, a joke that it's gonna bomb in a podcast context. But it's about how the nicknames. I do a bit in the New Special about nicknames like that women give each other, that women get versus what men get, like what men are like boss champ chief, Like they get promotions in their nicknames and the nicknames we get like honey, sweetie, Like like there's something about, like we need to stop calling women desserts unless you want to pick a cool dessert like bear claw, Like you can call me that. So then I call her bear claws cloth into it. Yeah, so that's her. But she's a good I mean, I know, it's so interesting to look at people's reactions because people get really creeped out. And there's a biological basis for being creeped out by robots and it's called pathogen avoidance. It's really interesting. It's our brain's way of basically making it so we don't fun dead things or sick things. So I didn't say very elegantly or like a scientist. So people who are necrophiliacs actually have broken brand that's right, that's right. Basically, so it's our Anything that we're repelled by is something that used to be poisonous, right, like barrious things that taste bad or poison you know. Like, so it's the way that we've evolved to avoid things that can kill us. So we have evolved the disgust response to anything that looks human but doesn't move like a human. It's our brain trying to figure out if it's that's right, and don't be attracted to it. So, like, men are way more freaked out by this than women are woke crazy and they get like really freaked out, and it's their brains way of saying, like, don't funk that sick thing, because you're gonna get whatever it has and die. Pathogen avoidance. So how in this research, you know, from Gail and everything else you've been studying about porn and relationships, I don't know, how does sex robots come into it? Like, how do people then get into relationships with these things? I mean, look, I don't like in the special I talk a lot about sex robots and everything that I've learned. You know, I think the majority of people now and I'm not an expert on it are not like people we know that are. I don't think people like should I date Sophia or like get a sex robot? These are people that are older that are you know, I went on the message boards because I was like, am I sort of defending and completely indefensible? Like psychopaths? Like what is this? Are these people that like hate women that like no, there are some men that are like I can't afford a real girlfriend or I just you know, went through a divorce and I'm not ready to move on, but I have needs. I mean, I still think it's it's odd at this point. I mean, there might be a time where we look back and it'll be odd to not have one. I we thought it was odd fifteen years ago to go on an app and tell people what we were eating. That was. You know, it's amazing the things that we think are weird and we're super normal our whole lives. We got raised to not get into cars with strangers, and now we call them to our house and get in their cars. They know where we live, they know where we live, so bad ship crazy the things that we're able to get accustomed to and so um, you know, so who knows but it's also a lot of guys that have erectile dysfunction or are There's something really amazing actually for our conversation earlier about this toxic masculinity conversation and every guys just just like you know, and going on these message boards, it's like a lot of really vulnerable guys expressing their insecurities and being like, I don't really feel like I'm attractive enough for a woman to like me, and I key getting rejected, and you know, that gets tricky because there's that sect of people that get angry about being rejected by women. That's frightening. But what you're talking about observing that that tugs on your heart strings is not I don't if they're concentric. I don't know a lot about it. And those are not the kind of people on the sample sizes of the chat room that I was going on and seeing these men, it was actually really kind of heartening and and maybe I should have had this before and it was weird that I didn't, But it just I just watching men speak in I mean I was spying, uh, but watching men speak in private about their insecurities and vulnerabilities, about their bodies, about like I'm just not good enough shape to get a girl I want. I'm pining for this one girl and she doesn't love me back. A lot of guys get them to practice because they don't think they're good enough. It's sex. A lot of them, like I said, how directile dysfunction or some kind of injuries, or they're like I can't afford a girlfriend, they're too expensive. You know, I do want to clarify one thing, just because I am sensitive to the things that trigger people to be hateful to women on social media. And I love your humor, but like, you weren't spying on men's spian men. You were like doing research for your special oy. Yeah, and you were given you were given access to this space. And all of these people are anonymous. It's not like you know you have you have one, so you have access. But I'm just saying, like, I don't I don't suddenly want some person who might be listening, who's been in that space to think that like you were recording people's information. Yes, no, you were. You you gained membership to an anonymous platforms because you own one of these dolls, and you also have been doing research on this idea with other research, like you know, that's right, Thank you for doing that, because I just want to clarify. I was like self, that was like the flippant thing you were doing. You've really gotten serious about how to analyze. And also, to the point of our earlier conversation, I think how we include men's vulnerability in the conversation about culture because you do really need to be intention I realized, like I would not have had an understanding of men's vulnerability had I not entered into that you know kind of space, and you know, and for me, I think that if I hadn't have done I mean, I'm just all about just doing your research and know what the funk you're talking about, and if you don't know what you're talking about, just don't talk and let the people that know what they're saying speak, you know. Like I think that, especially in this time where everyone's got a microphone and everybody can sort of put out whatever they want, whatever they want, it's just like, no, you know, when to open your mouth and just know what you're talking about, you know, before you speak. So I really wanted to do that instead of just going these are perverts, and because that's just such an easy thing to do, and it's sloppy and I think a really responsible argument to make right now, especially as we talk about toxic masculinity, engage and all that. So I really wanted to know what was actually going on, how it was working. It was also interesting because I think men, you know, it's nature, it's nurture, it's it's so many things. But don't men don't get to kind of become, for lack of better word, like fast friends the way women can and they bond. And just watching these men bond over this common thing, it becomes a car club. After a while, it's like, oh, what glue gun are you using? And what hairbrush do you use? It is this snail polished remover where Like I mean, it's just watching these guys just figure out how to And I talked about my special but this is this is really ridiculous. And I know this isn't the answer to anything, but you know, after watching these men, you know, connect about their dolls, bond about their dolls, ask for advice. But people are like, well, aren't you worried that these men are you know, gonna start to treat human women the way they treat their dolls, Like they treat their dolls great, and I actually kind of argue these are the only men that know like how hard it is to be a woman, because they're they're buying you know, nail polish, and they're putting the clothes on and the bra and they're like, can you believe mascara is eighteen dollars? Like this is crazy? Like they're learning about the pink tax when they're buying ship for their dolls. Like they're like, wait a second, Like because women's hairbrushes are more expensive than men's hairbrushes, that's just a fact, Like you can you know, women's razors everything, And they're like, wait a second, Like why are sock twelve dollars for a woman? My sox are two dollars? Like it's they're actually in there having conversations that I don't think it would be having. It's almost like when you give in. Was it like middle school when you're given like an egg for the day and you have to carry it around. It's kind of like that, you know, And like the high heel shoes, they're they're trying to figure out high I mean, look, it's so insane that I'm talking about this, Like it's not insane, but like when they buy shoes for the dolls, they're like, who the fucking walk in these? These are crazy, you know? And they put it on love that your experience in a space because by the way, you showed up and you were like, I got a sex doll, and I was like what. And I'm a pretty progressive person who's like, you do whatever you want to do. But yeah, I had thoughts and assumption about what that would mean. And then you're explaining all of this to me and I see the humanity, I see the learning, I see the empathy, I see the curiosity, Like that's kind of amazing. And you've there two things that I don't want to forget because I had obviously, guys, I had a lot of questions about what the fun was going on with it before we got to recording, and you told me these two of the things that people ask for the most from the company that produces these dollars is for them to be older, older and bigger, bigger bodies. Them request pubic care, which, by the way, I just which is great. I never no joke, I like stopped managing that. When I heard that, I was like, oh god, I thought pubic hair was over forever, and I had electricube. I'm freezing. I had electricue myself every month. I literally was like, oh, I thought no man wanted Like I thought that was discussing and revolting. Men are like requesting it and paying extra for it a lot, like over a thousand dollars extra. So it's like it's an interesting kind of insight, you know, and just to get off Instagram and off this virtual world of perfection and impossible standards into like what do people kind of actually want? And I'm sure there are psychopaths to have these. I'm sure our lives are probably married to our friends that we don't see, you know, what we're too in the shadows. We will never know. To me, I always when someone puts their crazy right out in front, that's when I start to feel safe, you know. I'm like, all right, you're weird, you know. So it's I just I don't think that we can be reductionistic about like all these people are weirdos, because before sex robots, there were a lot of weirdos, a lot, you know, because we like to just go it's that thing, and this is the problem when we just want to jump and blame it something instead of look at because I think we don't want to look at the inherent problems that are in us, so we want to point to any we want, like an easy thing to blame. Yeah, anything that can be mothered. And for us, that might be as women who are thinking about, like you know, building lives eventually with people, that could be like, oh, sex, robots are a problem, and which, by the way, they might be, but it's like it's the guns are a problem, the same thing like knives are a problem. You know, every baseball bats a problem depending on how you use it, you know. And the interesting thing about this is a lot of these men, which is just interesting, just kind of as like an experiment, a lot of these men, when they start taking care of them, they stop having sex with them because there's just it starts to feel odds. So it's in the majority. And I'm not a social scientist and I don't have a statistic for this, but from what I saw on like the three months I was like researching it, it wasn't so much men sexual like sexualizing humans are objectifying humans. It was them humanizing robots. And it just turned a lot of these guys like it feels weird, like I don't know, I just and they just kind of become like sort of pieces of art that they have in their house. It's not the kind of art I would want in my house, but something happens when you take care of something. And the bigger thing that was interesting to me was like, and this is a generalization, and you guys are gonna want to fight with me, but provocative and worth talking about whether I'm right or wrong because I don't think I have the answer. A lot of these men were like, well, women just don't let you take care of them anymore. And these men were finding joy and just taking care of something. My vote is like, just rescue a dog if you need to take care of something, Like women don't you know. But it was like all these feminists they take care of themselves and there's nothing for us to do anymore, and they feel useless, which is so interesting to me. I've I've certainly experienced and I and I said something recently to a group of women where I was like, I'm so freaking sick of being told that I'm intimidating. Like I'm not intimidating, You're intimidated. That's the issue here. And if my career or my success or my political advocacy or my intellect or whatever, it's intimidating to you, you need to deal with that. And then my second follow up with my friends is always like out alpha me, please, like do it. I would love for somebody to show up and do that. That would be so nice. Like if you want to, if you want to be caring, just do it, and I would accept it. It would be so nice. But because you haven't been around for the past, you know, thirty five plus years, So what was I supposed to do? Just wait, let's change the definition of care. So it's like my fans on people who you love. I don't need you to feed me. I'm good, I'm I'm my hands functioned like, I don't need you to pay for my shop. I don't like you complain that you don't want a gold digger, and then you complain that you have nothing to do. It's just pick a lane. Um. But yeah, I have this ongoing thing with the person I'm with because I get that I'm hard to love. If your love languages, you need to take care of someone. I get why you think I'm aloof for you know whatever. But the way you can take care of me is like, when I'm working, just be cool if I don't text back, Like that's how you can take care of me is to take care of yourself and be okay when I you know, come back. So I think the definition of care is just kind of changing. And you know, but I do think there's a lot of older school men that want to be able to like physically take care of something. I saw this amazing to you the other day. This girl posted and like I'm probably gonna butcher it, but it essentially said, no, Brian, you don't get it. I make more money than you, but I want you to pay for my dinner because my my foundation costs more than your entire outfit. You know. It's like it was this a hilarious thing where I was just like a society rooted more equality where like women are working and making money. It doesn't mean you can't be this like traditional guy that you sort of long to be, Like, yeah, you can still buy dinner because my ship is really expensive. Like my my socks do cost twelve dollars to your two dollar socks. Yeah, yeah, there's you know still, and you know an inequality still thing, like do you know how much it caused me to get my hair cut? For you to go on a date if you buy me dinner is eighty dollars And for me to go on a date with you, it's like I already put three hundred bucks just into late you know what I mean. The brons are alone or whatever, but um, but yeah, So it's like it was just interesting, and like my thing is, I don't ever try to say, like I'm right about this and I know the answer. It's just the robots are happening whether we like it or not. And I just think that we have to have some kind of game plan in place. We have to have lawyers that study robot law. That needs to start happening, because there's a lot of amazing things we can do with robots. We can send them, you know, to different countries to teach kids that don't have schools, Like we can send them to like I work a lot with Operation Smile, and it's this cleft palate surgery that a robot can do. If we can send robots to other countries to do these surgeries, they can do eye surgeries, they can detect skin cancer, like they can clean up the oceans, like they can go into fires and take people out of it. Like there are amazing things robots can do, but humans were such narcissists that were just like nothing can do anything better than us, and anything that's smarter than us is going to kill us. Like we're so like yeah, but it's also like maybe if we were being smart about this, we could create them to detect skin cancer and clean up the ocean. But they're doing it and maybe ensure that they don't kill us, Like why not. Yeah, I mean, it's the way from what I understand, the way robots work because they work on this point system. It's hard, and I know I was one that was like, we'll just turn it off and like they'll learn how to override our commands and not turn themselves off because they're gonna want more points. It's just that My thing is the people that are smart and up to make robots are smart enough to figure out a way that they're not going to kill us, you know what I mean. It's like, you can't be that smart, and that's stupid. At the same time, I have things in history that might suggest otherwise, But I on the idealistic or optimistic side. I really would like to agree with you. Yeah, I mean, well, we don't know, but if we do, if we just go no, we're it's like it's like fifteen years ago going no, we hate porn. It's like, Okay, we don't have any fucking laws in place, we don't have any fucking game plan, we don't have any rules, nothing, because we are just too afraid to talk about it, and we're too afraid to sound like perverts. Were too afraid to be wrong, We're too afraid to be suf whatever. It is. Like, I'm just like, we have to start having this conversation because this is happening, and I just don't see the point of being pretending that it's not. You know, and it's a really dangerous kind of area. So you're talking about sex were about, but I'm talking about And it's also the big the big reason I did this actually was to kind of show like a physical representation of like every woman I know. Now, I mean, here's the problem is that progress is happening, and women are you know, hopefully getting hired more than the workforce going better. But every woman I know is like their biggest thing is like I just I need to be able to be in two places at once. I need a double, you know. And so my thing is like, let's get this technology so that we can what if this can help us? He hates it. He hates it so much he won't even look at it and makes him angry. My subconsciously, it's obsessed with that. She lives in a coffin in my garage, which is hard for me to do, which I now get. Here's the thing. The robots we don't understand, Like you get emotionally. That's what's going to be the hard part. We're gonna get emotionally attached to them. That's the thing that's the weirdest. So like I feel bad, Like on the way here, I put like a sweater over her head and I was like, okay, Like I felt bad when I put her in the garage. I feel bad. And then I get paranoid, like I think she's like colluding with like the dog crates to like make weapons. Like the things that go on in your mind are really nuts. Our brains are crazy crazy, and so a lot of our fears irrational, a lot of more irrational. We should probably decide, I have a just a logistical question, do you travel with this? And if you do, what does she travel in a face? Because it's making me realize how ridiculous this. I think this is the first time I've brought her out into public with a new person. I actually think it's so weird, how like normal you're being about this Now that phased by a lot, because now that you're asking these questions, I'm realizing how crazy, Like I just had the epiphany, how batch it crazy it is to travel around with the head of myself. She travels in like a roller like it's a special roller bag. It's very men in black. It's just super It's like it's a whole thing. It's a hundred thousand dollars. I mean, like robot is robots are they don't have There's none of these. There's like three of these. There's three I think robots in the world that people have of themselves. This isn't a this is a big deal. Do they make this for you? This is customer Yeah, this is this took a year. This is not a thing that's just around, you know, like you can get a you know, like this is like these guys on these chat rooms aren't spending a hundred. They don't have robots. They have like dolls, and some of them the robots are just starting. This is very far from being commonplace. I mean, this is a very fair pioneer. I dubious honor um. But yeah, this is a very new sort of concept and I hope that it just I just kind of wanted to have the conversation because we didn't do it with porn. We were too young. But no one was like this can go either was bad? What is this? What is this? And a lot of women are saying, you know, I have very mixed thoughts about like sex workers, and because it's who knows, what's if you're that young, what's you don't have options? And you know, because it's one of the few places that women can actually make a lot of money fast. So I get confused, you know, because I want to go like I want to porn to go away, and then I'm like, heay, what you know? So I struggle with a lot of that stuff. So I like to go into areas that I struggle with and that one day I'm like this is bad and the next day I'm like, well, is it that bad? I like to just like venture into areas where I don't know the answer and then let society tell me all their opinions and then we can all like work it out. Yeah. I like that none of us know if this is bad, none of us. So when people are like just bad, it's like, okay, but would it make porn go away? Would that be good? Or that just be moving the bad to something? I just truly don't know the answer, And I just I think when you put something like this out in the world and people start talking about and then experts start thinking about it, and then they'll decide what's better for society. Hopefully those researchers we like so much, put some funding and research to this, get a scientist onto it, because because what the neurologists I've talked to are saying, the worst thing in the world for all of us is the thing we carry in our pocket all day every day. But we want to like be mad at sex ro about that doesn't exist yet, not the thing that's in our pocket. There's just like, look, you're never going to do it forever. But some little changes like I don't plug in my phone in my bedroom anymore. I plug it in upstairs. You mean to charge it like overnight. Yeah, Like I have an alarm clock. I don't open my phone first thing in the morning. I can't. I just can't do that because then I'm welcoming the entire world into my bed with me in the morning. And it's hard, and it's it's a really hard habit to break. And I will admit I was on a trip recently and I was using my phone as my alarm clock because I didn't think to buy a travel one. And then when I got home, for like the first week, I was just plugging it into my room again, and I was like, oh my god, look how fast I broke my relapse? Right? Do have you ever put your phone in grayscale? That's kind of a game. A lot of what's addictive about it is a college I mean, it's tricky because this conversation, and we're about to open up another three our conversation is addiction, and addicts with this are different than people that don't identify as addicts. And I identify as an addict. So it's like, this is an addiction that is just my dopamine receptors just don't hold onto it the same way you know, and there's until we have a mental health conversation about no one will acknowledge addiction and how it works and how it exists. It's like, this is a public health crisis for addicts, and I again identifies one and it is just like I'll say it. I was like on the four or five one picked it up and I was like, oh my god, now I have to put in the vaccine in my car when I drive. You're like, I got to throw it back. It's not like I'm going to pick up. It's just so automatic. No, you're not choosing, you're doing. It's an overwhelming yeah, exactly. And then workaholism. The other is m addiction you have, it's synonymous with this thing. So then it's just like, is that the workaholism is that the codependence is that the phone like really figure out what your addiction actually is. Well, so that might lead us into my last question, because I do like to ask it of everyone, and the podcast is called work in progress. You know, well I'm fixed. Great, Wait, you don't need to answer why on this show. I don't know. I'm done. That's great. I'm I'm so happy for you. There's can you write another book to teach us how to do that. This perfection not progress. But yeah, the I think everyone kind of looks at everyone else's life and thinks it's perfect because our screens like to lie to us. And so I like to ask people who have done so many amazing things with their life, what is something that feels like a work in progress to you? And it could be personal, it could be professional, it could be political, it could be whatever. But what what feels like the sort of the thing that I really need to or that you know you need or or they you're curious about, or that you're tinkering with and enjoying. Like it doesn't have to be heavy. Yeah, I mean I have a couple things like for me, I really the things I still sort of struggle with on a day to day is like the kind of people that I vibrate to is still I am very attracted to, very magnetically chaotic, charismatic people. I just vibrant. I can walk into a room and just the most insane, troublesome person that's going to cause the biggest wrecking balled like whoop, you know, And I think and we call it chemistry. We call it passion we call, you know whatever, I'm just like gook, And so I have to kind of work on the type of people I allow in my space because I really like, and especially in our business, where we're surrounded by statistically the most charismatic people on the planet all the time, just going like nope, you know you're going to set. You work with someone and you're like blah blah blah blah blah, and then you're just like, Okay, it's been a pleasure working with you. Now I'm going to go back to my It's just staying boring. You know. My therapist sounds weird to say, but I guess that's what she is. She basically is just like your version of boring is actually just serenity, just being okay with things being boring. You know. I'm like constitutionally terrified of being boring, having a boring life, missing out, you know. So I think for me, it's just like resisting chaos or you know, drama, because sometimes my brain tells me that that's like fun and like a great like a new friendship. Like I just it's just something I gravitate towards. I think forgiveness is a big thing that I'm working on because I struggle with the difference between having a strong boundary or cutting out something unhealthy and forget. Like you're allowed to have forgiveness around that and compassion. You can have a bottom line and forgiveness at the same time. You know, you can go that person maybe shouldn't be in my life, but I forgive them. You know. I used to think that I had to carry resentment in order to keep reinforcing a boundary, but I don't, you know, so that's something I really the idea of being able to say no. But that's okay, godspeed, Like just not a match, Like I, it's just not a match, and that's okay. Like you don't need to change you you are. I don't need to change. Like it's just not a match, and like that's totally fine. Uh, you know, seeing friendships a little more like dating because like friend ships, we like force ourselves to stay in friendships that maybe you know, don't serve us or just or not healthy or whatever. It doesn't serve the other person because you're enabling them in some way. Whereas relationships we go like, oh, we have to get out of that. But friendships were like we gotta stay in that, you know, because it's just women or whatever it is, so just kind of like, you know, figuring that out. But yeah, I think forgiveness is a big thing for me because it's the deal with forgiveness, right, is that you don't forgive someone because they deserve forgiveness. You forgive them because you deserve peace, you know. And I tend to carry around like I'll still have fights in my head with somebody when I'm like, because they did that thing, and if we just and it's like, no, it's just not a match, and that's okay. I think something that's helped me do that is owning the mistakes I made associated in the space. And it's funny because being women in entertainment, I've talked about some of that and it turns into like a you know, she slammed so and over and I'm like, no, I've just talked about what I learned in a situation and which I was younger and more naive to say, oh, I see how that happens or whatever. And I think that that that. I think that's sort of being able to laugh at your own part in something that you experienced with someone helps you forgive them too. I think that's so important. And you're bringing up a point that I think not a lot of people talk about. Is there's a big conversation right now. It's like we're running out of batteries. Is that you're that there's this big conversation about don't be apologetic, but if you did something, apologize, lame own you. I just like to all own your part, you know what I mean. You can apologize without being apologetic. You can own your part without being a doormat. Yeah, and you can apologize without being devalued by having made a mistake. In fact, it's where your power is, you know. And you also can accept an apology you didn't ever receive, you know what I mean, and just like like being okay with And that's part of the reason I think people think I'm such a like nutty animal person. But it's just like animal behavior is how I understand human behavior here because most of our communication is nonverbal, you know. So it's like that's the way that I start to understand and also limit accept limitations of people, which is something codependence can't really do. We're like, oh, if I only love them enough, they'll be more like this, and if I if I just showed up more, they'd be more like this. If I just loan the money, they'd be more like this, if I just sort of wore this and dressed this way, or talked less or talked more like. We try to change other people's neurology with our behavior, and it's insane and impossible. So working with animals has helped me really, Like, if there's if I have abused dog in my house and they're too scared to come near me, I'm not gonna be like fuck them. I'm like, of course they're going to act like this given the circumstances. And then I apply that same compassion and patience to humans in life gets better. Yeah, I really want to squish her face. It's already so it's already so squished. How could it be squished? I have a foster in my house right now. If you guys probably uh no or don't know. And yeah, every time I bring a new foster, I learned something else about how in possible my expectations are for human beings, and how how impossible to please I am, and how much I need to control other people's behavior. So dogs keep me humble training, you know, traumatized dogs really helps me accept other people's limitations and my own. That's pretty cool I have, um, we all do. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley, Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Krilliant Anatomy