Hi everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress. Today's guest is Taylor Tomlinson, a phenomenal comedian who's performed on Late Night Conan and Last Comic Standing. She was one half of the Codependent Tour alongside Whitney Cummings and help jump start the Self Helpless podcast, which covers all things self help. It both turns an introspective eye on the host's personal development and spotlights everything from codependency to obsessive compulsive disorder, to social justice and where self help is concerned. After two hundred episodes, Taylor retired from the podcast, leaving it to her two friends and co hosts so that she could better help herself. She started her comedy career performing in churches and uses her own personal experience to shape her routines. Her Netflix special quarter Life Crisis takes aim at the expectations and realities of being in your mid twenties and whether or not they are truly the quote best years of your life. And she should know. Taylor is a phenomenally self aware of person who puts a lot of value in one's ability to understand and better themselves. I was curious about how her life shapes her comedy, how her comedy shapes her outlook, and how our outlook shapes her life. So I asked her questions about that and more, but not until after I shamelessly outed myself as one of her biggest fans. I spent the hour and change we chatted on Today's podcast literally having to restrain myself from quoting her entire Netflix special back to her, I think I did Okay, I think I only did it once. You guys will have to tell me. I am so thrilled to have one of my very, very favorite comedians on the podcast. Enjoy Taylor Tomlinson. Well, Hi, I make everyone I know watch the Netflix special. I'm so obsessed with it. Oh my god, that's so flattering. I was going to give my publicist so much credit for booking this. I was like, you've mean Sophia Bush's podcast. Some peoples doesn't know who I am. That's so funny and so nice. Oh my gosh. I was like, well, I have to tell her that I'm a comedian. Oh my god. No, honestly, it's like, I'm just I'm very excited that you're here. God, I'm so excited. Oh I got you like thrown me off. Now I'm like never, um truly like for anxious people, I think you are like a I don't know, you're like such a holy grail because the whole time watching the special, I just was like, yeah, I feel that. Yeah, I have felt that too. Yes also, and it's like, I don't know, I can't wait to get into how you found your voice as a writer, because you make many of us feel deeply seen. And also you make me feel like I haven't accomplished anything because I'm like, I still don't know how to write that well about my life, and I have like a decade on you. So I'm glad you're a child prodigy. That's fine. It's so funny to hear you say that. That's that's just proof right there that if you're anxious, you will never feel good about yourself, or you will never feel as good about yourself as you should. Yeah, Like you're making so many people feel better right now, myself included. Or you're like, well, if she feels like that and she's so amazing, then I must not be that bad, right just because I feel this way this fear, Yeah, I started, you know, I kind of had to look at that. I had to look at fear and anxiety a couple of years ago, like this is gonna be a really weird metaphor. But I was watching animal videos on Instagram, and you know when you watch the videos of like the ducks or the geese with their little ducklings or their little geese, and I look at them and I'm like, I have one dog, How could they be so responsible for all of these other little animals? But there's their job, right, Like they're these mom birds and that's what they do. And I don't know why the like the idea, And it was really the geese that did it for me, because I don't know if you've ever looked at like a teenage goose, but it's ridiculous and like fluffy and looks like a baby, but it's also like really big and awkward, and that's kind of how I feel about feelings. And I was like, oh, I just have this like gaggle of little gooselings and I can't get rid of any of them. They're all my responsibility. So like my anxiety and my fear are I kind of got to be like, yeah, let's go guys. And then there's also excitement and curiosity and my intellect and the things like about myself. So it's like a little troop of baby geese, is the way I think about it. I love that metaphor. I I really I think that's such a good way of looking at it, because I think when I'm really fearful and anxious, I tend to go to this dark place in my head of this is who you actually are. These feelings are your entire self. And everything else you do that's good or the things you're validated for by other people, that's just you tricking everybody, and this is really you. So I love that you kind of give all of your feelings equal footing, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think. Oh man, I was going to get into the feelings later. I have so many questions for you about your childhood, but maybe the feelings there too, um, But I just realized that a I can't ignore that they exist, like to your point, those suspicions, and I think for about to say people like us, I'm like, I don't know you that well. I've just watched your special still time, but I have opinions about your feelings. But like for for people who outwardly speak about their anxiety like you do, and like I do, I realize, like it's never going anywhere. You know, that feeling isn't going to go anywhere, that that constant fear of like is today going to be the day that every single person I know and love is going to tell me they've hated me all along and I have to move out of my house and no one's ever going to talk to me again. Like that. That's like the t I'm in all the time. And so it's like, okay, well if that's part of it. If I try to ignore it and be okay, what I'm actually doing is reducing myself because I'm ignoring this thing that is quote unquote unpleasant. But also the things that we ignore become bigger things, Like when you don't voice that you're annoyed about something, then you're not annoyed about it. Then you're like eight years later, you're filled with rage and shame. So it's like I've learned that if I can just say, like, yep, like those are two of my ducklings, here we go, then I can kind of just get on with my day, and then in a weird way, I'm really accepting all of myself, even if those are things I don't like or enjoy, and even if I'm like, wow, I would super love to wake up in the morning ever and like not have a neck ache because I've been dense all night sleeping like this. You know, I would love that, But I don't know if that's my journey. So like, let's go a little ducks, right, yeah, And everybody has their stuff and you're like, this is my stuff. Somebody sent me an interview Bill Hayter did where he was talking about how bad his anxiety is and has been, and how being on live television is absolutely horrible for that, and how when he feels anxious, he just tries to think of it as like, Okay, I'm gonna put my anxiety on my shoulder and be like, Okay, you can hang out up here, but we have to keep going. But you're here and that's all right. And I think that's so similar to what you're saying, and something that I'm not always very good at. I'm not very good at compartmentalizing my anxiety. Something that's been really helpful for me lately is just trying to remember that being so anxious also makes me very considerate and thoughtful in my relationships, and thinking about it from that perspective makes me feel better and less like again in my weaker moments, like a failure as a person, if you just look at it as like this double sided thing where you're like, Okay, this is this is a drawback in certain situations, and this is hard for me to deal with and live with, but it's also part of what makes me somebody that I am proud to be. Yeah, because there is there's a little something at its at its best, it is a bit of a superpower that makes you really see other people. Yes, because people who aren't anxious or who don't have low days often won't notice when someone in a room is experience racing that and I know that for me, I can see it. And then I'm like, how do I how do I let that person know that I see them? Yeah, it makes you very empathetic. Um, well, I'm so glad we're talking about the ways that we deal with their compartmentalized emotions. Um, which perhaps who knows where they come from. I've been joking and it's actually I realized, probably not an appropriate joke, but the pandemic has made me into a person who doesn't know how to small talk. So I'm just like, hey, how are you have you uncovered or dealt with any like childhood trauma? Are you talking about your feelings? Are getting enough sleep? I'm like, these may not be appropriate opening questions to, you know, say, to like the person at the grocery store. Um oh, I mean I was like that pandemic, So I'm the wrong person to ask about that, do you. I'm really curious where you think that comes from. And I know you're also a California kid, which makes me feel excited because everyone thinks we all move here and I'm like, no, lots of us were from here. M hmm. I love California. I love it. I really love it. What was your childhood like here? I'm always so curious for people who grew up in the area. Well, I grew up in northern California, like an hour outside of Sacramento and like more of a rural area until I was like nine, and then I moved to southern California, so I've kind of gotten the full California experience. And then I was in I was in like Riverside County. It was in Temecula. I feel like I can say that now because Olivia Rodrigo grew up there, um, and it's putting us on the map. But yeah, I mean I think northern California has a totally different vibe than southern California. And whenever I go back there to visit family that still lives up that way, where I do shows up there, it's very like relaxing and comforting to me. Weirdly, um, probably just because I spent the first nine years of my life there, But yeah, I mean it has its issues obviously, like the fires every year's area and traffic and whatnot. But it's so cliche to site the weather, but the weather is so nice and I just love driving me too. I love to be in my car. I love being in my car listening to music and comedy shows and podcasts. And that was a thing that actually made me feel like I was going crazy when lockdown started because I'm so used to driving. So I started just going on drives so I could listen to stuff and be in my car. But yeah, California is pretty amazing. We're not doing like a you know, come to California at or anything. I feel like this is the moment where like a jingle would start and it would be like in this episode is brought to you by the California Board of Tourism. But it's really not. Um it's also expensive here, Like you know, I go to other cities. Yeah, I always go to other cities, and you know, my friend Dustin who opens for me, and I will just look up, you know, homes on Zillo in that area and go like, oh, this is brutal. It's so much cheaper. I know, it hurts. This area is so cute. It really hurts. And you're like, wow, I could live in that I could actually live in that house. Yeah. Yeah, Well what was it that brought you guys down to Temecula from northern California. My mom died when I was eight, and then my dad got remarried and my stepmom lived in southern California, so we all moved to her. Yeah, I've read it. Sounds like a really weird thing to say, but I'm like, I've read so much about this and I I can't even imagine going through that experience as a little kid, and like how that shapes you. And it's it's so interesting, you know, doing my homework to get ready for today, and then reading that you started going to your first stand up classes with your dad. Was what did that come out of losing your mom? Was that something you guys found together or was that already happening. No, that wasn't until I was sixteen, And that was kind of on a whim, like somebody at church just told him they were going to take it and he was like, I'm gonna take it. You're gonna come with me. So it was very on a whim. He wasn't like you should be a comedian, like, there was none of that. It was just like, let's do this together. And we had had like a tough relationship in the years leading up to that, so I think it helped that we had that to do together at that time. But yeah, I mean the New Hour of Material, which will be the next Netflix special, is a lot to do with anxiety and depression, and there's like ten minutes of jokes about losing my mom and how if you don't deal with the traumatic stuff that happens to you when you're a kid, it just keeps affecting you in ways you don't even realize until you get into therapy and they're like, well, this is probably a result of this, and you're like, oh, because it's so easy to just go that's anxiety or I'm just anxious about that or whatever. That's how I react to that. But to actually talk through it was with a professional and make sense of it. Like I read this book called Motherless Daughters. That's so good, and it's just all these women who lost their mothers young and talking about their experience, and a very common thing is that you're afraid that when your parent dies young, you're going to die at the exact same age they did. So I think that's really made me very driven because I have that in the back of my head all the time, even now, even knowing logically that's not totally rational. I'm like, well, we got seven years left. Yeah, that's so interesting you talk about that. So the closest way I can relate to this because I feel very fortunate I still have both of my parents. But my dad's dad died before I was born, and so I grew up hearing stories about my grandfather and you know, seeing photos of him, but I never got to meet him, and I knew how important he was to my dad. Add and I've I've learned a lot more about him in the last couple of years. My dad is now seventy four, which is crazy to me, and now now he has a white full white beard and white hair and looks like Santa Claus As. He's adorable. Um, but I didn't know that my dad carried that until he turned sixty seven. And the year my dad turned sixty six, he was just like not himself, and my mom and I were like, what is going on with him? What is he's like with drawing? And he seems weird and his stress levels seem really high, and he's like he's out of breath all the time. And he didn't tell us until he's he turned sixty seven that the entire year that he was sixty six, he was like, well, today's the day I'm going to die because his dad died at sixty six. And he couldn't even speak it because he said I thought if I said it out loud, I would drop debt. Oh man, My sweet dad like honestly makes me want to stop. Um. My dad ironically has this like my mom helps him like buzzes hair, but he does it a little up in the middle, so she calls him a baby duck, and I'm realizing, like, oh, is that way I've named my feelings ducks? Oh my god, this is happening to me in real time. I'm realizing this with you. But you know, yeah, my dad was like he was basically living through a year of an anxiety attack, and he was too scared to say anything because he didn't want to like jinx his body. And at sixty seven he was like, Oh, maybe I'm gonna be okay, which I guess really indicates that we should throw you a fucking rager for your thirty fifth birthday. I would really like to be on that planning committee. Um, whenever you're ready to talk about that, and you don't have to be ready to talk about it now, you can be like no, I really that makes me stressed and be like cool, I'll just find out who to assist in, like the stream or buying and the stuff. Because having been through that as a child with a parent, like, I've seen the thing you're talking about feeling. Obviously, yours is your own and it's unique to you and I I can't imagine it, but it was pretty gnarly to watch my dad go through the thing you're talking about, Yeah, did he have any like survivors guilt when he hit sixty seven? He didn't have guilt, interestingly, and I think I'd be really curious too to know what like that, you know, he had. He basically had thirty years on you of this like fear that this was coming. But I think about that in the inverse as well, that he had thirty year thirty more years to say like, this is the life I've built and what I've cultivated and you know, my my wife and my daughter, and you know, he he had so much attachment obviously to being here, and I think that perhaps that it was later for him, I would hope, at least as his kid made him feel more deserving of the experience of outliving his own father and his own fear, because it was so hard to know he had been carrying that and and to see that. And also when you think about the difference of our generations right like you can talk you're like, yeah, this is what's going on with me? Like in my therapist said, you know, my dad's like he's he's old. He didn't have that, and so I think that having much more of a runway until that number that was stuck in his head probably helped him in a way because it sounds to me at least, and I don't mean to project, but what I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong. Is part of it for you is you're like, this is soon, like thirty four as soon. I'm twenty thirty four as soon, And I imagine that makes you feel like you're in a race. And for my dad, it was always really far in the future. And so I wonder what I maybe wonder what some of the difference of the experiences for you guys. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think I think when your parent dies at thirty four, there's this fear of like wasted potential and maybe maybe some like weird guilt. On my end, this is me realizing things in real time as well. Look at us, um so proud of us. She would be so proud of us. But I think maybe there's some some feelings of like she had me maybe like a year out of college, I was not planned. From what I've read and her diaries, because we have like this box of her diaries from when she was like ten up until she was married to my dad, which is crazy. She was like a writer, and she was so creative and talented. But she had me really young. She had me at like whatever, I guess, twenty five maybe, and which isn't crazy young, but it's you know, and she was going to go back to school and start writing when my youngest sister was in kindergarten, and my youngest sister was too when she died. So seeing all these like scrapbooks and how creative she was and all these diary entries where she's just such a good writer and so funny and witty and she's like gorgeous, Like, it just feels really sad that she got cut short. And maybe on some level, I feel like I have to make up for that with my own life. I mean, it strikes me as an observer, who again, I feel so creepy right now, being like, I know so much about your timeline, but I'm so flattered. But in but in hearing this, you know, you talk about beginning to take these classes with your dad at sixteen, and here you are at seven and you have this baller Netflix special and your next you're talking about the next one you've written, and you know that I'm stamps of the lengths of jokes you do on certain topics. So I'm like, you're very far along in this process clearly. Is that not kind of crazy to you in terms of this idea of like your your potential and the way you've been realizing it. I mean that you've done this in ten years basically. Yeah, I mean it's it's crazy. And I do feel very very lucky and very very fortunate to be where I'm at, and I do think a lot of it is luck. And it doesn't mean you're not good at what you do or you're not talented. It just means that luck is involved because there are so many good talented people. So I never want to lose that perspective. But there are times even where I go, am I successful young because I'm gonna die young? And it's the universe or God or whoever you pray to going, We're gonna give you this because you have limited amount of time here and that's the only reason you get it right now. Because I do. I do feel so fortunate sometimes that I go, there's no way that this is the only way that this could be fair to other people is if I'm dead soon? Oh man up here? Yeah, No, and I see it. I see it, and I get it. And I'm also like, have you read Chelsea Handler's book about like her experience going to therapy and finally processing the loss of her brother when she was young, and like what all she was carrying from that her whole life? I haven't, but I heard it's great. I feel like that. I don't know what I'm like Suddenly, I feel like, you know, like an aunt or something where I'm like, I want you to read this book, sweetheart. I want to hand it to you through the computer. But but seriously, there there's something I think really amazing about, you know, especially someone on her level, just being willing to be so raw and bear with an audience and like tell the sort of deepest of her own life. But I think the reason it comes up for me is because, as another of my favorite comedians, to look at where she is at fifty and like killing it, I'm kind of like, no, I think maybe you're just that funny and you you also are meant to be famous young and then continue and and perhaps if I may God not to be like a Pollyanna, but maybe maybe the universe or God or whatever anyone praised to is like, Hey, this is for you, this is this is yours. And also the way that you speak about your mom and that you identify things about her, her creativity, everything from her writing to her scrap booking, all of which to me just light up as creative expression. You are her daughter, You are of her. She is with you in ways that I imagine come out in terms of the ways you write jokes and the way that you look at things. And perhaps this wild ride that you've begun that's really working, is working because the universe is on your side, and your mom is like on the universe's shoulder, Like maybe you have anxiety on your shoulder, but like maybe your mom is on God's shoulder, being like no more more for her. She deserves the more. Very healing. This podcast, Oh my gosh, who knew? You know what's funny is that, Like when Whitney Cummings came on the podcast, I was like, man, this is going to be so funny, and we spent like two hours talking about codependency and therapy. Also, so I don't know, welcome to my office. What else would you like to discuss? I mean, work in progress is the perfect name. It's the perfect name for what we're doing here. I really love it. I mean I would be remissed to not at some point starious into comedy, because, as I've admitted now to you multiple times, this is what I do when I'm embarrassed, when I'm such a fan of someone, as I just keep talking about it and then I make it weird. So at any point you can be like, no, I get it, please stop saying that, and I but I am really I'm really curious about that that period which makes total sense to me, right, Like, you go through this loss and then you have this change and your dad finds a partner and it's I imagine really confusing as a kid, and then you've had these hard years to to echo what you had said, and then suddenly you're sixteen and you're going to comedy classes with your dad. But also I know that you did a lot of stand up in church, So like, where does church comedy? Dad? Healing? Generational relationships? Like how does this all happen around the age that you're getting your driver's license. Well, there was a woman at our church who was a teacher who was going to take this class, and the class was at a church taught by a church comedian. There are church comedians. There are church comedians, and they make a lot of money because there's so few of them. There are very few comedians that are clean enough for churches because churches are so you can't just be insanely clean like you you know when you do the Tonight Show. You have to be clean. That's nowhere near clean enough that you have to be for churches. Yes, and you have to be super clean all the time. You have to be that person. I have a clarifying question because I know I have never in my life, and I realized because like my my family is a mix of Catholics and Agnostics and Jews, so like we have no comedians in our places. Do you mean like you're not talking like a church comedian like the hype man on a sitcom? There isn't like a person you mean like comedians who perfor who travel and perform in churches. Yes, Like instead of a theater tour, it's a it's a church tour end up circuit. Yeah, I mean mega churches have five thousand seats auditoriums. Wow, okay, all right, I'm I'm picking up what you're putting down. So, so someone who does tours like this is coming to do classes. Is it the same person? Everyone was teaching different people. Okay, Okay, No, it was the same person. And he taught like it was like six weeks, six or eight weeks, and we went once a week, and then at the end you did like a little graduation show and I would open. He would have me open for him, or send me to do smaller church gigs or what have you. And then I wasn't allowed in comedy clubs until I was eighteen. Some of them. I wasn't allowed until I was twenty one. So all I did were like churches and schools and coffee shops and like weird side hotel rooms. Like That's all I did until I was eighteen. And then when I turned eighteen, I'd started doing clubs in San Diego, and like the comedy store, I would wait outside because I wasn't allowed inside, and they would let me in just to do my set and I would have to leave immediately again. Um, and I was really clean. I was a squeaky clean comedian up until I was like, I don't know, twenty two, and then that's when I wanted to talk about other things. Is that when you made the famous I'm a wild animal in bed joke that guys who fired from your church door. Yes, that's exactly when that happens. Please tell the people listening what that joke is, because I really love it, and I don't I don't feel like I should be doing your jokes on your episode of this podcast. So I did a joke on Conan when I was twenty three, I believe was when I did Conan where I said, I'm a wild animal in bed, way more afraid of you than you are of me. And I had tweeted that the year before before when I started doing it on stage in clubs. And at the time I was opening, I was in the rotation of openers for this huge megachurch comedian, and I remember his tour manager, who was also his brother, called me and was like, look, a lot of our audiences, like homeschooled kids and like families, like we can't have somebody who's making jokes like this online, and so we have to take you off these dates that we have coming up. And it was really the last church gig I was doing, and I remember I felt so guilty and bad, and then I got sort of upset, and I was like, I never want to feel this way again. I never want to feel like I did something wrong, like I messed up, and like I'm not good enough for I'm being judged. And also I felt guilty doing church shows on my own because it it just felt like I was not being authentic in that they want somebody who is a Christian in real life, and I was struggling with it and I didn't know what I believed and I didn't feel like that was where I was at anymore, and it didn't feel right to me to go to these churches and take their money and have them think I was somebody I wasn't. And it was just weird. I mean, it's weird to be performing in churches, is like a single young woman, because most of the church comedians that are successful are you know, middle aged and married and probably men, and mostly men. Yeah, unless you're like Shawnda Pears. I find it really interesting too that men are allowed to make jokes about their sex lives, which often all the women in there and we're okay, buddy, but like you making a joke about your sex life, which also positive that you're terrified of it is like you're a sinner. You've got to get out of here. That feels that it feels very restrictive and a bit like a double standard if I'm observing it correctly. Well, men weren't allowed to do it in church either. I mean, they wouldn't have been okay with a guy doing that either. Probably, Um, the only people who can get away with like innuendo and church are the married guys who I guess that I'm talking about the Yeah, that that's the thing I've seen where you know, I've seen some people who like talk about religion but then also make jokes about sex. But yeah, they're married men. I see why you say that you felt like you couldn't fully be yourself. And I imagine when you're in that stage of your life too, or you're in your early twenties and you are in the thick of trying to figure yourself out. Having to reduce yourself to refer back to the earlier part of our therapy session, to leave a part of yourself kind of outside is hard. Yes, yes, think it's It can stunt you as an artist and hold you back, for sure. So how does how does something in your early twenties like Conan happened. How do you go from church shows to Conan's show? Was that like completely surreal? Well, I did Last Comic Standing when I was twenty one, which they just found me on YouTube. It was very It was like right after I turned one. It was when I had just quit school and my job to do stand up full time. And I did pretty well on that show because it's casting and so it's a good story that you're really young. And then I did like a Comedy Central show, and then yeah, I was trying to do a late night set for a couple of years and the Conan booker saw me a few times before I got that opportunity, and yeah, I mean it was huge. It was like a dream come true. It's like the first big thing that you get that you're like, At least for me, it was something I had wanted for so long that when I got it, it felt like a very significant thing. And I did feel ready for it by the time I did it, which was nice. It's nice when you do something that you feel ready for. I was not ready to do Last Comic Standing at all. I was not ready to be on television. But by the time I got to Conan. I felt ready for it, And yeah, I mean that year a lot happened. I did Conan, I got the Montreal Festival, I got a development deal with ABC. Like a lot happened that year to make me feel like I was I was finally a real comedian, as weird as that sounds. So yeah, it was huge for me. It was really huge, and it it's it made me feel so much better about the fact that the year before I had told my managers like, you can't bring me offers for church gigs anymore, like I'm not right for those. And it took a couple of times of them being like, but it's this much money, and I'm like, I can't. I can't even look at it, like don't don't bring them to me because I'm not the person for that. I have people I can refer you to for it, but I'm it's not me. That takes a lot of resolve at two to know that. I just hate feeling guilty, and so for me, it was like, well, if this doesn't work out, I can go back to school or something, but I'm not going to live my life in a way that isn't authentic to me. Just so I can do what I love to do, but in a very controlled setting that that I don't fit into. Do you think having left school to pursue comedy, because that's a bold choice too. I remember being twenty and being like, did I do I do my senior year in college or do I go to this TV show called One Trio? Like? Because I didn't know and I had, you know, I was like, what TV shows? They never work out anyway? And I remember are my college advisor saying to me, well, you could go do this for two or three years and then come back if you really want to hilarious. I'm just like, well, who knew? But I I know for me how hard that decision was. So I I imagine that you know, in whatever way for you, you had to really examine, you know, your goals, and the choice is hard. I think when when you're at that age and then to make another choice a year later, what what was it? Well, first of all, I want to know what you were studying in school, because I'm very curious about what you were into and how did you know that you were ready to just go for it? Well, I was a communications major, so essentially nothing and and uh, It's so funny. You you go to your high school advisor and they're like, well, what do you want to major? And then you're like, I don't know, could we just major and what we're doing right now? Talking? And they're like, yeah, communication, you can do anything with that. And you're like, really, could you be a doctor? And they're like no, don't be stupid, like you could be an assistant, not to a doctor, but you know, um to someone else. And uh, I knew. The only reason I quit school and I had a year left as well. The only reason I quit school is because I did these Naka conferences, which is basically where you audition to perform at colleges, and so I booked like a fifty college tour and couldn't go to school anymore. So weirdly, I quit college to make money performing in other people's colleges. You quit college to tour colleges. I kind of love that though. That that to me feels like a door opening, being like no, here, look, go go this way. You have fifty dates, you're guaranteed this experience. That's pretty cool and so okay, you do that, then the next year you say I'm not doing church is anymore. Then by the next year you're on Conan and you've done TV and and what happens from there? How how do you go from last Comics standing to Conan to development deal to Netflix? Like, I don't I don't know anything about this part of this world. So I just am flabbergasted at how this works. Well, that's what's so hard about this business. I mean, I feel the same way about acting. I have no I have no idea how it works. I have no idea how people keep momentum going. But it's probably very similar two comedians coming up and that you're like, I don't know what my next thing is. I only know what I have right now. And so every opportunity you get you try to make the most of it so that hopefully it becomes another opportunity and people see you from that and you do a good job there. And so I did Conan, the development deal. I learned a lot on the show basily didn't get made, but learned a lot got paid THROUGHOUTE, something we were proud of, loved who I was writing it with, and then it was just it's just what this business is is just a series of like, Okay, now we're gonna do another TV spot, and we're gonna go over here. We're gonna headline consistently. I mean, the nice thing about being a stand up is that you are always getting better if you're on the road. So when that ABC show didn't get made, I was kind of like, thank god because I wanted to keep touring and getting better as a headliner. And thank god I did because it made me ready for a quarter life crisis a few years later. So if I had been doing some TV show, it wouldn't I wouldn't have had the time to work out that material. And the way Netflix kind of came about is Netflix did a series called The Comedy Lineup that was was like twenty three. Oh I think I was twenty. A lot happened when I was twenty three, No, maybe I was twenty four. I did The Comedy Lineup, which was Netflix doing these like mini specials. So it was a series of like fifteen minutes sets from you know, however many comics. It was like fifteen of us, and mine did well enough that I asked my reps. I was like, can we submit for half an hour? Because they also do half hour specials, And to my manager's credit, she was like, we should submit your hour and I was like, yeah, if you think they'll want to see an hour to prove I can do half an hour, that would be great. And she was like, no, you have an hour and it's great. Let's tell them you'd like to do an hour. I was like, I mean, of course I'd like to do an hour, but they're not going to let me do that. So just so you know, I don't expect that at all. That's how low my expectations are. And we sent it to them. They thought about it for a few months and they gave me an hour out of that fifteen minutes. And if I hadn't done those fifteen minutes, I don't think it would have happened. I mean, I think it helped that I had sort of proven myself in a smaller way. Michelle Buteau and Sam j also did the fifteen minutes and they also got our specials, so that was kind of my entry point with Netflix and thankfully this But but every every turn, you're like, I hope this works out because just because you it's so hard to get something and then you have to deliver. So even when I got the fifteen when I got the hour, I was like, well, I hope this goes well, because if it doesn't, then I'm back to square one. So obviously I just toward toward the hell out of that hour, and I'm doing the same thing now. That was a really cool thing for me to learn. Watching Amy Schumer's documentary about being pregnant and doing her special, I was like, oh my god, I had no idea the amount of touring and work shopping you do as a comedian and small clubs and you test a joke five ways and you take notes and you and you carve out the special and I was like, holy shit, I've never seen this, because you know, I go to work and we do the thing and we film it that day, and then the next day we do the next thing. And it it struck me that comedy is so much more like theater than I ever realized. Yes, very much. So it's really really cool to watch the way you guys do that because I'll you know, I've seen your hour a lot of times. I've Michelle's hours fucking great. You know. I watched um Chelsea's special. She did this drive in during COVID when Evolution premiered, which was so fun because it got us out of the house and it almost felt like being with other people, but everyone was like ten feet away in their cars, but you could wave at strangers and it was really cool. But you know, the obviously the special looks so tight, the timing of the jokes is so money, and and then to watch someone actually work shopping that that was just a sort of lens into a comedians world I've never seen before. Oh yeah, I mean I also watched that pretty recently and it was so good. I watched it more from from like a younger comment, going, oh my gosh. Obviously her pregnancy was very difficult from what I saw on that dock. But watching more established comedians who are becoming mothers or our mothers, or are getting married or are married, and how that balances with their stand up career. I mean, I think Ali Ali Wong has a joke about that where she says people always ask her how do you balance being a parent and being and work? How do you balancing a mother and working? And she goes, men never get asked that question because they don't, And so I thought it was it was such an interesting doc for for so many reasons, And yet it is really hard to capture what it's like to tour and workshop jokes and and I think like TV shows try to do it sometimes and it just is hard to do unless it's an unscripted documentary. Yeah, have you seen Joan Rivers documentary? A piece of work? Oh my gosh, you'd love it. It's so good. It's her, it's just her touring and working really hard, like in the last decade of her life. And she's just such a workhorse. And she's got this wall of files of like every joke she's ever written, like organized into subjects. It's it's really crazy the type of anxious part of me and the comedy lover and me feels like you've just really given me a gem. Oh you'll love it. So, Joan Rivers, you mentioned Ali Wong? Who are the who are the comedians that you I guess who the ones you look up to now? But like, who did you get really into as you learning comedy as a kid too? Um? I mean Maria Bamford I really loved as a teenager. I still think she's amazing. I just don't really watch stand up as much anymore. I did watch her last special that was so good. Um, I think she's amazing. I mean when I was a kid, we were listening to a lot of clean comedy. So it was like Brian Regan, who I opened for for a little while, which was like insane and amazing. And he's like the nicest person on top of being the funniest person. He's so funny, and he's like so funny off stage two. It's just it's pretty incredible. It's like him and Jim Gaffrigan you could listen to in the car with your parents. My dad actually liked Mitch Hedberg a lot, which was god yes killed his sesame jokes and Jim Gaffrigan talking about pop tarts. I saw him at the Chicago Theater twice. Actually I had tickets and then randomly another friend of mine wound up with an extra and so I was like it, I'll go again. And him just being like pop his little little he kills me. There. There two of my favorites. Yeah, so good. I mean Mike R. Biglia, his stuff is so personal and interesting to me, And yeah, I think I definitely gravitate more towards comedy that's very personal and raw and honest, as opposed to just observational or topical humor, but which I really respect. But in terms of like what shaped me when I was younger, I think it was more so that style for sure. That's that's made me the type of comic I am. I really like that. Have you seen me Martin's show Feel Good? Yes? Oh my gosh, my siblings are obsessed with my Martin. Yeah, I'm also obsessed with May Martin. And yeah, my my treat to myself yes or day the day we're recording this as June seven, and the season two of Feel Good came out on June four, and so my which was a Friday. I'm saying this really for the people at home to make sense of what I'm talking to about. But my Sunday treat to myself was just to sit on the couch and binge all of season two and it was heaven. I haven't watched season two yet, but I heard it's great. It's really great. And yeah, just what you're what you're speaking about, you know, they're they're hilarious, really personal, kind of raw experiential comedy. I think that's what I love. I think that's why I grab it toward all of you guys, and and even in some of the things I read, like there was a Vulture headline calling you the comedian laureate of not fun twenties and things, and you just being like, NA, like I'm anxious. I don't want to do that. I don't want to try those drugs. I'm super scared. And I was like, I just love this because I get you. And weirdly, when I see other people be so honest about their experiences, like it makes me feel more honest about my own. You know what kind of when other people give themselves permission, I think it gives the people who watched them permission to do the same. Yeah, I agree. I was not on TikTok before my special came out. The reason I'm on TikTok is because I had uh, you know, social media people that we had hired to help promote the special and they were like, you have to be on TikTok and I was like, I'm not a child. I'm not getting on TikTok. And I didn't get into it at all until like halfway through the pandemic maybe like in the fall, And now that I've been on it, I'm like, oh, this is how gen Z is like Gen Z is really open about how terrified they are and how anxious and depressed and just like making fun of their trauma in such a funny, real way that I really like respect to love and and makes me feel safer to do the material I want to do coming up, because I think when the pandemic hit, part of me was like, oh, man, is this hour I'm working on going to be too dark when we get out of this, Like are people just gonna want, you know, really light humor or or more like silly? And I think there's a degree of truth to that. But I also think that when you go through something traumatic, you do want to be able to laugh at darker things well, and I think it's the honesty in dark comedy and and everyone really feels And I see people talking about how they feel very raw, very kind of like the defenses and the facades have been broken down, and it's interesting. I've I had the exact same experience. I'm like, no, I literally can't be on TikTok because I am not of Generation Z and some of the people, some of my friends who are are like, no, you will love it. It's topical. There are conversations there's also housey I Y. And then a friend of mine sent me a video of a guy um on TikTok showing you how to get rest off a cast iron skillet, and I was like, fucking man, I'm in heaven, like heaven. And then I watched forty of his videos and then I was like, oh, I understand why everyone is addicted to this, Like this makes perfect sense to me. And I think the the thing you're talking about about, the way gen Z is so open, resonates with me so intensely because I've recently realized talking to a friend of mine from One Treehill and when we were like, oh yeah, so we were twenty and then we were on a show where we were playing high schoolers. But we did that for ten years. So basically my twenties were just like Groundhog Day high school. And so my thirties have been my twenties. Like I finally feel like I'm thirty, but I'm about to be thirty nine. I kind of feel like I'm a decade behind. That makes so much sense. You also look way better than me and I'm twenty seven, So I mean, I don't agree with you at all. I think you have perfect skin. I've noticed it multiple times. Um, but what what's weird is actually like, if I look at myself now, I feel like I look like myself. When I look at pictures of myself. In my twenties, I had this little baby face, but I was trying so hard to prove that I was an adult because I was so scared all the fucking time that I felt like I weirdly looked older because I was like trying to look like a grown up. So I like my hair always looked a little weird and I was like probably wearing too much I make up, but also like whatever, I liked it at the time, so I can call it, but like I don't, I don't know. I'm not trying to like put on a face anymore so that people don't notice that I'm a kid. And so yeah, I'm having it's very weird, having a really weird moment. Thanks for talking to me about it, Oh my gosh. Of course, again, so helpful to hear someone like you feel that way, because even I felt that in my twenties where I'm like, oh my gosh, what was I doing there? Or that doesn't look like me? I feel like that seeing clips of my special sometimes where I'm like, well, that's not what I look like. That's really good lighting and makeup and all these things like that feels like a version of me that I'm glad is out there. But it's sort of like Uncanny Valley ish for me, where I'm like, is that did someone build that? To do my jokes? And then I get to go do the press and stuff, like I think, I don't know do you feel that way? Did you feel that way when you were younger and you were doing so much press and you were like so huge and I can't imagine what that was like just the level of recognition you had and fame you had, like at that young age, that's so intimidating to me. But did you feel like that watching your show or interviews of yourself where you were like who is that? Yeah? Sometimes? And I think also it was such a weird era because it was the early aughts, so like tabloids were horrific, you know. It was the era of like Lindsay Lohan drama and people were just really going after girls, you know, and we're acknowledging it now like the Britney Spears doc I think really made a lot of people look at their early two thousands and go like, oh god, we were horrible to women, And I was certainly on the receiving end of a lot of that, which was weird because like every girl I know who was on a show in that decade, and most of the people I know now have like fallen in love with someone they've worked with, and no one really cares, even for people who have done it plenty of times, and no one even talks about it when the boys do it, so it's like, I don't know, it's all. It was weird that that they kind of wanted to like rake girls over the coals for just existing, um, and never did so to any of their partners who were half of those equations. So like that's a weird thing to think about. But you just go like, yeah, okay, it's one cog and like the giant trash patriarchy wheel, and you know, just a lot of a lot of journalists got a lot of traffic on their websites for doing it, So I can see it and be grossed out by it, but also interestingly have no personal attachment to it, which feels nice. I'm like my therapist, my therapist is worth all that money I've paid her over the years. Uh, I'm just kind of like, no, yeah, I can see this societal thing and how it fits into the you know, schematics of patriarchy, and and it's like, but it doesn't feel personal anymore, which is cool. But the other thing that was weird is that we were all living in North Carolina, Like there was just our cast, and then it was a college. You know, there's U n c W. It's like there were college kids, and then there are like a bunch of retired guys who played golf. So it was like us in our twenties mostly around like teenagers and then retired people. So we were in this really weird little bubble. And so we didn't really know, you know, we weren't shooting our show in l A Or in New York where we were being invited to stuff all the time. We can never go to parties. We were we like didn't do much of that, and and so I think in one way that kind of saved us. And then I think on the flip side, it made us all really vulnerable too, just influence, you know, like we really trusted all the guys we worked for and it turned out they were a bunch of old, fucking creeps who did not have our best interests at heart. Now we can kind of laugh about it, but at the time it was really disorienting. And then because we weren't doing a ton of press when we would like, I think about it now and I'm like, oh my god, we just answered every question that was ever asked of us. We didn't even know we could say like, I don't really want to talk to you about that. Um, we didn't. No one said to us, if someone asks you a question that makes you uncomfortable, like crack a joke and move on. You know. We were just like, oh, well, because there was a tape recorder going and there was this sort of assumption that we had to do what was asked of us, and we were babies and we just didn't know. So it's really, when I think about it, I realized what a weird time it was. But for everything that wasn't great, then, I think the thing that feels, like, you know, the feather in my cap if I will, is that we've all kind of really come back to each other. We've developed these like incredible friendships as adult women and we're just like frank about it, which is probably because mentally we're gen z We're stuck in you know, we're gen Zeus because we were like emotionally stunted for ten years. So we're actually children and now we're like, oh, this is our era. We talk about our wounds and our trauma. Let me add it. That is so interesting. That makes so much sense. It's weird right when you think about it that way. Also, I'm realizing in this moment, like, of course you did two hundred episodes of a podcast because you are also a great interviewer, and you are very introspective and you want to talk about you know, development, and you're wickedly funny, but you're very sensitive. And I guess that goes back to the superpower side of anxiety. And do you think that that this tendency to like really want to get into stuff with people is what led you to do that for a while, like made you want to ask questions and and explore. Yeah, absolutely I did self. Helpless the podcast I started with my friends Delanie Fisher and Kelsey Cook. I they're still doing it. I left about five months ago, but they I did it for three and a half years. They just hit like four years, and I did it because I wanted to work with them so badly because I love them so much, and also we just all loved self improvement and we were all trying to be better and we were all workaholics at the time. We've worked on it, we're trying to be better, and we've I think we got a lot better as people and found a lot of balance and learned a lot about ourselves doing that podcast. But one of the things that I learned is that I don't want to be I don't want to be sharing my whole life every single week. And that's what that podcast was because it was so focused on the three of us and what we were learning about ourselves in these books we read or this documentary we watched, or really the only time we didn't have to get super personal as when we interviewed other people, but there was still a lot of us in there, and I after the Netflix special came out, I just felt like a lot of people I knew a lot about me in a way that I wasn't used to, and it's made me much more aware of exactly what you're talking about, which is you don't have to say anything. You don't have to say everything, you don't have to answer every question, you don't have to give all of yourself right away. And that's what I like about stand up is you can work on these jokes for two years and decide what you want to share with people in a prerecorded, widely released way, you know, like you never get it back working it out in front of an audience and Tampa or whatever, like they're always going to know. But the hard thing about for me for doing a podcast every week was that it was too much of how I felt right then, and I hadn't worked through stuff yet, and I mean, you know, I still feel I'm like, there's a lot in there if you go back and listen. So that's sort of where I'm at with it now. And I'm so glad I did it. And I loved Laney and Kelsey so much, and I'm glad they're still keeping it alive. And the fans we got from it are like the nicest, most dedicated fans ever. A lot of them came to my special taping, and yeah, I just I just don't want to betray myself. I guess I don't want to betray my future self by oversharing things that are undercooked totally. Well, that's one of the things that I think, even like I was saying earlier about not knowing, I didn't have to answer questions. I didn't have that kind of emotional awareness or experiential maturity. And I think as you find your maturity and experience, you begin getting really good at what your boundaries are. And this podcast is available for editing, and your special can be edited. And one of the things that I learned even a couple of years ago is that, um, the only place that makes me feel really unsafe is the live thing that can't that doesn't contain room for forgiving people grace. And you know, I I had like you experiences with the same journalist where twice in live settings, I was like ambushed with the thing that I just said, like there's nothing I want to talk about except I don't really want to get into like I don't want to talk about other people who have negatively affected me, Like I'd rather talk about my work or my life, Like I don't like when women are constantly asked about people who did them wrong kind of bullshit. And both times this happened, and then I was like, Okay, I'm just not ever doing a live show with this person again, Like that's just that's my rule because I don't want to be got it. And And what I realized about what you're saying is that so much of what feels good to do is to share the things you understand where you've come to a conclusion, where you've found the grace for yourself or someone else in the experience. And when you're when you're doing a thing about you in the most intimate spaces ivery week, you haven't had time to find a conclusion or to like reach the end of a road and then look back and process, and yeah, that that must have felt really um. I just get this, which doesn't help anyone listening at home. I'm like, I'm like making a line down my chest and then cracking it open, like it feels so exposed, that's the word. I was like, what does this feel like when your heart is on the outside because a cabinet, Yeah, you're like people, you can see it. That would be that would be hard for me too. And I do feel like there's a lot of really beautiful, um, vulnerable conversation even in this space. But I like to make sure people feel like they get to do that, and and for myself to do that in a safe um way where you where you're choosing to be vulnerable because you're sharing something that you know, whether it funny or sensitive, that might help another person. Like when you say to me that me being honest about, you know, feeling like today's the day it's all gonna come grudging down makes you feel okay about your anxiety, I'm like, oh, that's great. Yeah, I've had this for twenty years, so it really does. It really really does. And it's what makes me want to as we're talking about earlier, it's what makes me want to share the tougher things I've dealt with or that I've come to terms with because I know other people who have felt that way are going to appreciate it. And the people who don't like it, like probably haven't experienced it or it's just not for them, and that's okay. And I think the Internet has been so helpful and miraculous and that it makes it okay for you to just find your audience and be okay with not everybody liking you and be a little less broad and a little more focused. Yeah, that feels like some freedom when you think about finding the methodology through which you share what's personal, you know, comedy and in taking other people's stuff on the internet. Where do you think the kind of social political stuff comes in with comedy? Because for me, I look at comedians as being able to kind of distill reality to us with humor, which I think is such a universal language. And when I look at artists, comedians, athletes, all these people have always really been on the forefront of sort of social and political conversations. But then I also know from being there that people will say dumb shipped to me, like why don't you just shut up and keep acting like no, Also, this is my Instagram. I don't act here right, Seriously, this is like this is not the place where that, right, just go on Netflix guys Like yeah, I'm like, you Google watch anything anywhere. But you're so what, how do you kind of find your lane or or the thing that makes you feel empowered in terms of whether or not you want to dip into those kinds of issues. I mean, it's so hard because I think that's a really nuanced thing where there's a lot of people who are like comedians joking about these issues is helpful because it, like you said, it helps people sort of receive these ideas in a way that's more palatable. But also like you can get in trouble for being to flip it about issues by making jokes about them. So there are a lot of I'm not a political comedian. I know a lot of comedians who are really good at that, who are really good at making their points and being really funny at the same time. For me, weighing it on stuff is just directing people to things that helped me learn something, like I've I've always felt that way starting stand up so young is that I'm like, I am very young, and I don't I don't know enough, and if you want to learn about something, you should not be coming to me for that, Like I should not be talking like I'm some sort of authority on really anything, but I know lots of people who are, and my comedy is something that helps me get enough people following me to where when you choose to share that stuff, it actually gets seen by a lot of people. So when people go just keep telling jokes or just keep acting, You're like, yeah, I'm going to because that is part of this that's one aspect of this, but I also am gonna post about these things sometimes because they're also really important and if I'm not doing that, then I'm only accumulating this success for myself and for no other reason. That doesn't feel great, you know. Yeah, I like, uh, I think very often about you know, we're having a lot of conversations about inequity and privilege and these things we need to be looking at, and I try to think about what the what can the good side of something like privilege look like? And to me, it's the privilege of a platform where I'm like, oh, yeah, this is the best part of what I do is being able to have this many people that I could share something that I believe to be really important with. And yeah, I hear you. It's so funny because you're right. I I didn't get the sense, like watching your special that you were necessarily making political jokes, but you're so razor sharp in your social observations and like, those things feel very bold to me, And I think there is a I think there's kind of a parallel path sometimes with um being willing to advocate about something in the political spectrum, but also just like being really bold about talking about what society is, especially for women, Like so many of the observations that you make, I'm just like, yep, yep, that too. I feel that felt that yep, And and so it's funny because it feels incredibly um current and topical, and I do think there's real truth in like, the more specific your material, the more universal it is for people. Um, is there like a joke in the new material that feels I don't want to be cheesy and say like quintessentially you, but is there something that you look at that's like that's the grounding thing or are there many of those over the course of an hour. I mean, the stuff about my mom is something I've really a couple of those jokes I wrote when I was a lot younger, and they just didn't really work. Yeah, they didn't really work consistently because people really sad and they were also nervous for me because I was so young, and I really needed the years of um experience to get to a place where I could deliver them in a way that made people feel like I was okay, Like I was a mature enough performer to handle those topics. So I am really proud of that and like, you know, I have jokes about antidepressants and panic attacks, and like it does. It does feel very personal to me. And there was a very conscious effort to hold back with Quarter Life Crisis and make that one a little more fun, I guess, and a little more like twenties, which is so funny to hear you go like, oh, the anxiety, and they're like you picked up on all that, because I think a lot of people don't don't read into that as much. They just think of it as like I was just about being into twenties and dating is hard and stuff. But there there is a lot of like there are a lot of hints in Quarter Life Crisis, I feel, And like the joke in Quarter Life Crisis that I almost wish I'd saved for this New Hour is the joke about like being a teenager and telling my dad I had suicidal thoughts and him just going like taking a knife out of the door and being like go ahead, like calling your bluff basically or something like. And that's like a traumatic memory for me that I have worked on a lot in therapy, and I turned it into a joke that I'm really proud of where I say, like I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to listen. And I do think that Joe gave my dad some grace because you know, it's it pokes fun at me as well. But that's a really hard thing. And I think I put it in quarter Life just to hint, like, hey, guys, like I might be a little darker in the future, so hopefully you can handle this. And I had girls come up to me after shows when I was doing that hour who were like, oh my gosh, my dad did something similar, but he did it with a gun, like really dark ship that yeah, And same with this hour. People come up to me and be like, oh my gosh, my mom died last year and this was so funny and thank you so much. Like that's the type of connection that makes me feel really fulfilled and like I'm doing things I feel proud of and like myself, and so I do. I do feel like this next hour has a lot of jokes in it that are very much me and it's it's just I was talking to my boyfriend about this last night where I was like, it's I don't know, this might be kind of hard on me emotionally in a way that I haven't realized that I'm I'm doing two or three hours a night talking about all this stuff. And I think some nights I go, that's really good for me, and that's helpful, and this is but it's a lot of self reflection, and I think there are nights that I'm really exhausted and tired, and it's it's a lot to share of yourself for a couple of years, and then permanently online has having to do that, the work shopping, the repetition, Has that helped you find some methodology of self care, some kind of like energetic what's the word for that. I don't want to say energetic cleansing, but maybe like something that you do too to shake that out of your system at night or are you still looking for that? Yeah? I think I I think you have a routine before shows, you have sort of a routine after shows, And I don't really do meet and greets because it's just too much. And I'd like to do that in the future, but it's just and I have in the past, but it's just too much to give all of that. And then there is something sort of jarring about people coming after you after a show and referencing something about you and you going, how do you know that? And you're like, oh, I just told you, But you were this sort of faceless mass of audience and now you're a person right in front of me shaking my hand, going that's crazy that that's how you are or this is what you take or that's what you're like in bed, and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I said all that. And it could get very overwhelming and I think make it hard to go do another shower too. So that's definitely a uh strategy of self care that I've adapted on the road right now. Yeah, I had to do something similar a couple of years ago. Depending on the material that I have to do on set, there are some days when I can, like if we're out in public, let's say, you know, shooting at some building downtown somewhere where at lunch, I can stand on the corner all day and take pictures of people and like, you know, meet their kids and and because it's it's a it's a light day. But on the days that for me are heavy, I had to learn to give myself permission to say I can't be touched by strangers right now because of where I've been all day, and I need to go sit down in the dark and be quiet for twenty minutes over lunch. And the first couple of times I did that and someone would like yell at me getting in a van, like I can't believe you're gonna walk right. But that was really hard for me. And then finally I was like, but I can't be nicer to you, a person I don't know than I am to the body I have to live in. It's still even telling you this, I feel guilty. I'm like, someone's going to hear this and feel like that's mean or feel rejected by it. Well, you're helping me, so that hopefully that takes away some guilty. Well, thank you. But I really think there's something to it to learn, especially as women who are taught to people please and be good little girls, that you have to protect the physical body you live in and the emotions that carries. And sometimes that means you can't make someone else's day, and maybe that sucks, but you have to do it, especially if you want to have longevity in a career that does require you to be like this. I'm doing the like chest cracking thing again for everyone at home, Like it does this to you all the time, and and even when it's funny, it's still like you're still taking a piece of your insides out and putting them on a platter and being like you want to look at that. Yes, yes, absolutely, And I think we all got really open on the internet during the pandemic in a way we wouldn't have been if it weren't for that. So it's been interesting going back to normal life and going like, Okay, maybe that's not how we operate anymore. Is it weird for you to do shows and have an audience again? Like, is all the screaming when you finish something? Does that feel intense after a year inside? At first it did. At first it did, and now it's just great again. But yeah, first it was like this is crazy, Like the first few times I was like scared on State. I was just like, this is a lot and this is nuts, and I just had to address it up front because I and depending on where you were at in the country, the audience was like, yeah, we feel that way too, or they were like we've been out, We're fine. You know. It's a huge, huge difference between like North Carolina and like Portland, Oregon, like very different than the levels of anxiety and how long people had been super locked up inside. What are some of the big goals on the list still for you? You know, it's so funny because my whenever people ask me that, for years and years, I said, I want to I want to do theaters. I want to do theater tour. And so now to have gotten there, I'm like, oh, wow, we have to we have to aim even higher now. So I'd like to stay at that level. I'd like to perform for more and more people. Obviously, I would like to continue doing specials whenever they're ready and make sense and are are something I'm proud of. I have a couple of projects right now in development that I'm one in particular that I'm really really proud of and excited about, and um is very personal to me and I hope gets made. And so there's a lot. There's a lot going on, and there's a lot that I am looking forward to, and I'm also so incredibly grateful and dumbfounded that I get to be where I'm at right now at this moment. So you caught me on a grateful morning I love that. I feel that there's also something about when it rains in l A and I'm like, I just feel cozy and introspective and want to think about my life. I know, truly. I woke up and I was like, Oh, I guess we're gonna we're gonna learn some things about ourselves today. We're gonna journal. We're just going to be in here, maybe put some music on cups of coffee this morning. So my favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show. And you referenced it earlier, so perhaps it's something you've thought about. But when you think about the notion of a work in progress, if it's your special, if it's personal, if it's something you see happening in the world around you, what what in your life feels like a work in progress to you? Oh my gosh, me as a whole, my personality, uh my, my combination of medications I'm taking, uh, my career, my relationships, I mean, everything does, everything does. And that was that was the frustration I talked about in quarter Life, which was just like, your twenties are such a tumultuous time of of learning about yourself and figuring out how you're gonna be in the future, and I know, you know. And every time I say this, people in their thirties and forties are like, you know, you don't have it figured out later either, Or people come up to me and they say, when you turn thirty, everything is way better, or they come up to me and say, when you turn forty, everything is way better. But nobody's ever like, yeah, my twenties were amazing. No one ever says that to me, and rightfully so. But I am coming to the end of them, and I do feel like it might even out once I'm in my thirties. This like feeling of what every year I look back at a year ago and go, oh, my gosh, I was a totally different person in a totally different place, And I would like to get to a spot in my life where I don't feel that way anymore because it is exhausting. So I very much feel like a work in progress in every way I've I've been working on my material in my act, but I've also been working on my mental health and and how I approach romantic relationships specifically, and I, yeah, I feel like there's a there's a lot to work on with me right now. Within my life. So um, I love the name a lot. I think I think probably everyone feels like they're a work in progress. I would assume when you ask that, Yeah, it is really interesting how many people immediately make that face. They go and then they say with me, and then it's the thing they talk about in themselves that I'm always so fast needed by. Um. I just think humans are cool, and I think, you know, we're all so much more complex than for so many generations, we were given the space to be and I'm excited to be alive in this moment and at this stage, in this moment where we're really beginning to it seems to me anyway, where so many people are beginning to be willing to take up more of their own space and to be wholly themselves and to like welcome the little duck lengths along. Yes, absolutely, I will say specifically to give you a specific answer, just so I'm not like every other guest who's like me, I'm a working it's me. I'm I'm working very hard on my sense of self worth because I think when you have a low opinion of yourself, or you struggle with a lot of insecurity, it holds you back in a way almost nothing else does. I think it affects everything. It affects your career, and it affects your relationships, and it makes you this might be too strong a word, but almost like a dangerous person if you're painfully insecure, because I think people act out of insecurity and maybe not dangerous, but you're not as safe. You're not as safe as space for people if you're insecure because you're so wrapped up in your own head and you're so focused on yourself, and you know, like a good example is, I'm very nervous in social situations. I'm very scared. Even just doing shows in l A. I can be really really nervous and scared, and I don't want to bother anybody, and I don't want to put anybody out. And um, people will tell people that I really like, will tell my friends and people close to me that they feel as though I'm stand offish or that I don't like them, and that they're kind of scared of me. And every time someone tells me that, I go, oh, that's right, you can't just go I'm afraid. I'm afraid, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm shy. You kind of have to get over that so you don't make other people feel bad too. So the people are like, why why won't you make eye contact with me, It's like, oh, I'm scared, and it's like, okay, well I felt like we were friends, and now I don't know if you like me or not because you just couldn't say hi or go out of your way to be like, hey, how's it going. So that's something I'm working on specifically in my own life, is feeling good about myself and feeling comfortable in my own skin and trying to believe the best in other people and situations and myself instead of just anticipating the worst case scenario all the time. The thing that really was like a punch to the gup for me, that framed what you're talking about was having a conversation with a very wise friend who said, you will always be able to prove the story you're telling yourself m M. And I was like, oh, she said, so, if you're telling yourself that the world is scary and that you are scared and that people secretly don't like you, you will find that mm. So what if you stopped telling yourself a story and then looking to prove that it was true. M M. And I was like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, because that that example you gave of you being told, well, you didn't say hi to me, and then I thought you were standoffish. I've also been the person who has held my breath when I see someone wondering does that person remember me? Do they know me? And then if they walk by me, I'm like gutted by the feeling. But then they'll say to someone, yeah, we were like making eye contact and she didn't say anything to me, So I just felt weird. So I walked out and I'm like, well, I thought you didn't know me, and that you so it I you can create the proof of that which you fear. And and so sometimes when I get caught in that, like the gasp and hold feeling, I try to force myself to exhale and do something else because I find that it's in the literal and metaphorical holding of my breath that I can I can make up a story that isn't true. Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. Whatever. The person who's got a decade of this, you know, nightmare on you. I was clutching my face during that whole interaction, just trying to hide the fact that my life was changing. That's so wow. That's such good advice. Yeah, it's that confirmation bias thing. If you want to find something, you're going to find it. And yeah, that's exactly what I needed to hear. That is exactly what I am working on and learning is that if you are terrified of something happening and it is all you focus your energy on, even if it's not happening, you will find a way to believe it is. You're so right. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. Thank you so much. This was a true joy.