Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Today's guest is Ogi Abuna. She is a filmmaker focused on disruptive and inspirational storytelling, and her incredible documentary, Invisible Portraits is now out on demand. We'll put a link to it in the episode description and on Instagram. This film, you guys. It is a powerful, beautiful celebration of black women and their history and features interviews from scholars and authors sharing their stories. I was lucky enough to get to see it early before we did our interview, and I just loved talking to Ogie about the film, how her own experiences shaped it, what she learned that she didn't know about her own culture, how she got to this point making her own film, and more. Enjoy. Thank you so so much for joining me today. I'm just I'm honestly like I'm geeking out a little bit because when I first saw the trailer for your film, one of our former Work in Progress guests, Dr Molina Abdela, is in the in the movie, and all of these beautiful, just bold incredible women who you collected to tell their stories, and it's all happening now. It's it's so eerily timely. And I think the reality is that it's always been timely to tell these stories. But something's happened in the in the shift of this greater kind of social aware this and and I'm just I'm so excited to talk to you about your movie and where the idea came from and how you got here. Yeah, I mean, my life in the in the sense of this has been quite unconventional. If if I'm to talk, if I'm gonna tell you how I got into the industry. UM. I moved to l A eight years ago, UM through a retail job that I ended up quitting because I, for me understood that my morals and values didn't the line with that company. UM. And I was introduced about a month later into yoga UM more particularly restorative yoga, and I fell in love with it, and I was like, I want to teach this, like this is how MYNA help heal the world. UM. And so I went into a teacher training for a year and learned UM how to teach resort of yoga. And so I started teaching it throughout l A and I started working at this one particular gym that introduced me to a private client, and that private client at the time was this guy named Jet doherty Um. And I didn't know who Jet was because I only had a first name basis with my clients at the time. And I would say it's about like a month and a half and maybe two months in, you know, Jet looked at me at the one session and was like, have you ever thought about working in film and music? And in my head, I was like no, Like I don't even know a TV like not interested at all, And like the first thing that goes in my mind is like, oh, this is that casting couch thing people talked about, Like he must think I'm like an expiring actress and that he's gonna, like, you know, like convince me to like do whatever. And I was like, I'm not interested, and I know, and you know, a few sessions happened after that, and at every session, you know, Jet would just be like, you know, like I think you we have the same taste of music, Like let's that's like exchange music ideas, and you know, like I just feel like you will be really good in film and music, like there's just something nice seeing you and so like, after a few sessions and really getting to know him more, I realized like, oh, he's not a creep um, that he actually sees something in me, like so like maybe I should explore it. And so I was like, Okay, tell me more about who you are and what you do. And so he started to explain to me that you know him and the actor Colin Firth formed rain Dog Films six months prior um and that he was in l A looking for a director for a film they were trying to get greenlit. And I didn't know who Colin Firth was at the time because I just I wasn't into film like that. And so he was like, um, have you seen King's Speech? And I was like no. He was like watch that, like that's my producing partner. And so I watched the film and I saw him again for a session a week later, and I was like, oh, like, that guy's a really good actor. Was a great film, and so he was like, that's my producing partner. And so I think, I don't know what it is, but there's something that I see in you that I think that if you come and work with us. We can help cultivate that and we can teach you everything we know, although you know, he was like, I'm gonna be very honest, like I come from the music industry. He used to be the CEO of Sony Music in the UK and Colin was an actor, so producing was both new for both of them, and so um En was like, you know, will be learning with us, and so um through like meditation and you know, consultation with my friends and family. I said yes to the call, and I was like, I'll try it for three months. If I don't like it, I'll quit. And Jet was like all right, absolutely, and so um I end up moving to London um to work with Jet and Colin for rain Dog, and you know, within the first month there, we got green light for I Am This Guy, and I moved to South Africa for four months while we filmed that, and then a year later we got green light for Loving. Moved to Virginia while we filmed that, and you know, I was with rain Dog for about three and a half years and then I parted ways with them and I moved back to l A and I went through like this phase of like deep depressions. I couldn't figure out like had I made the right choice? Like why did I? Like why did not work out? Like like what is what am I doing next? And I didn't know. Um. And in the midst of that, I received the text from this woman, um, Christie Campo, UM that I had met an event like a few months prior, and she was just like, you know, I'm at lunch with a friend really random and I just met you, but he has this idea and I thought about you and would you be willing to meet him tomorrow? Um? And I was like all right, So I meet up with this guy at the Peninsula and I walk into the meeting and it's just, you know, middle aged white guy and I sit down and I'm like, you know, what's the vision, Like what's your idea? And he goes you know, I was watching this YouTube clip of Isaiah Thomas like being inducted into the Hall of Fame, and you know, he's balding crying and he's like honoring his mother and I want to create something that celebrates black mothers. And I was like okay, Like but I was like I think, like, if you're gonna do something like that, like you got to create something that celebrate black women because they're black women first. And he was like, you know, all right, if you come back with a pitch, if I love it all fully funded. And I was like wait what, And I'm like, you do know I've never directed before in my life, so I can produce it, but I'm not a rector. And he was like, okay, let's make the pitch and we'll go from there. And so, oh my god. Yeah, So I go and make a pitch and I pitch him this idea and he's like, all right, I love it, go make it. And I was like what. And I remember that like when I left the meeting. Immediately I went to Halle Berry's house. It was a dear friend of mine and I was just talking to her and I'm crying in her living in her kitchen. I'm like, I can't do this, like I've never directed before, Like I gotta say no, like this is too big of a subject matter and like I can't. I don't have the tools to do this, and like you know, she literally picks me up off the floor and she's like looking at me and she's like you gotta say yes. She was like, what do you mean She's like, about to put the full force of my team behind you to make this, Like you're going to say yes to this? She was like, so many men, is, particularly white men in this town, get an opportunity without them knowing how to do it, and they say yes to it. So she was like, you're gonna say yes, like it's okay, Like you can do it, afraid. And what strikes me is that you'd already And this is always easy, right from the vantage point of a person who is not involved in something, like when you're in it and it means everything to you and you you're trying to figure out how to make something monumental. You can't see the forest for the trees, right And from the outside, I'm like, you were already directing. He gave you an idea and then you told him what the idea really needed to be, to be authentic and to be and to really go deeper. And I'm like, you are already doing it, you know, but I'm sure in the moment it I can't imagine how crazy that must have felt to have a person just say, oh, that enormous idea that you have, why don't you make it? Yeah? That was like yeah. It baffled me for days because I'm like, wait what, because then, like like you said, like when you're in the thick of it, you don't see that you're already doing it, and every doubt and fear is starting to creep up, right because you're like, I can't fail this, like this is too much, and you know, like I want to do it justice that black got a research and I gotta learn, and like every fear that known and unknown that could possibly come up for me came up in that moment. And then you know, for someone to be like yeah, they'll make it awfully funded, You're like wait what because then for that right, like never happens never. Yeah, wow, Okay, So I want to get into that stuff, into how you decide when one of your dear friends looks at you and says you can do this, like I'll throw my weight behind you, but I see you. But I want to rewind first, because I love to go back with people and and get to know their story and how it begins. I always, I always find that really going back helps us make so much more sense of the present, at least for me, as I learned about where people's kind of motivation and leadership and and tenacity comes from. So before we get into how the film came to be, although like what a preview that somebody said, go me get I want to go back and get to know you and your story. So Um, as we talked about for a moment before we started our interview, your family is Nigeria. Did your parents move here from Nigeria? Yeah, so me and my brother our first generation. I am on my dad's side too. So I I love hearing about like when people's families came here and where they went and what it sort of felt like to to you know, shake out, like the pursuit of the American dreams. So when when your family came here? Did they first go to Houston or were they somewhere before you were raised there? No, they first came to Houston. So my father at the time was already in Houston, and he had met my mother, um in boarding in secondary school, which is like college in Nigeria. His sister was her roommate. UM, And so he met her that way, UM, and they you know, like they you know, he pursued her and like they dated and they you know, fell in love and got married. UM. And then he came to Houston for work, and then her family and his family, UM wanted to surprise him and send her down to meet him. UM, but it doesn't in in the faery sales, so it's not a good story. Yeah, yeah, you know, UM. And so you know, she surprises him and comes down and she's at she gets to the airport and she calls him and like she's stuck there for hours. He's like not asking the phone, not picking up, and you know, she doesn't really speak English, so like the people at the airport are trying to like help her connect to whoever she's trying to connect to. And when they finally connected him hours later, he shows up and he's yelling at her and he's like literally going off so much so that he gets physically abusive. UM. And you know, she she stayed married to him for about four years and during that time, like it was probably one of the probably the worst four years of her life. Like, you know, like he was very physically abusive. He would beat her, UM, throw her downstairs, and you know, she would write letters to her family to try to be like Okay, someone helped me, this is what's going on. And she would put him in the mailbox, and after a few months she was like, why is my family not responding to me? Like, you know, like it hurt her even more that she felt abandoned by them, and I guess you just like let it go, like, okay, they're not responding, like maybe they don't believe me or whatever the case may be. Come to find out a year later, she's like in the house looking for something and a box falls from like a closet and he had tooken every note that she put in the mailbox to be mailed to her family and hit it and so you know, it was just things like that, you know. And it wasn't until she had me that she realized that she couldn't do it anymore. But it's not even as she realized it, Like while she was having me and I was in the hospitals, I had complications at birth. Um he had tooken everything. So when we left the hospital to go home, all that was there was like a spring and the job coins that she had collected, like he had took in everything in love, and so you know, it was it was difficult for a while, like we lived like that in that um. But no electricity, no nothing until the neighbors found us there like they thought we had all moved and then when they was realized that we were living in such provish in provished like such a condition. You know, we we lived with people like you know, people that she had met had took it, taken us in. You know, she you know, figured it out, um, but you know it was it was challenging growing up. Mm hmm. I can't imagine what that experience must have been like for her to come to a place where she didn't have anyone and and didn't have first even the language to try to find some sort of support system when you have no community. It's it's so incredibly isolating and really a testament to some of what is highlighted in the film, the the resilience of black women, and and to your point of how the movie began in concept at least what mothers do for their children. Yeah, how how did things begin to change for you both in your young life? How did you and your mom begin to get back onto more stable footing And were you in a position where you felt like you were really trying Because I know this is a struggle for so many families who come from places where the adaptation of language is difficult, like from my grandmother and her family coming here from Italy, Like my great grandmother didn't speak any English, and I always grew up hearing stories of how tricky that that was. And I wonder when did that begin to change? Were was your mom struggling so much to get back on top of things and kind of assimilate or was she able to hold onto aspects of Nigerian culture and language for you was as a family? Um? I think like she she tried, I think as much she can to try to assimilate, right, but like she you know, you know, she had to figure out the language. She had to figure out how to find a job, and she had to figure out how to provide for me and my brother at a time where like she was also trying to figure herself out, um, And so you know, it was difficult. She worked multiple jobs, like you know, and I grew up resenting my mom for not being president, um, because I didn't understand why she could not be as president as other kids mothers. Like why I felt like I had to start working, you know, in babysitting and working jobs at such a very young age. At like thirteen and fourteen and not being allowed the privilege to have a childhood per se. Um, So I grew up very resentful, um towards her. That now like through like you know, the work of like therapy and things like that. And just as an adult, I understand it now better. I understand why she wasn't present because she had to work ultiple jobs, you know, and even in the raising of me and my brother and trying to figure out how does she do that, um, and makings meet. She then adopted my cousin who became my brother because his family, his father got deported back to Nigeria, and so like she took on another child, like barely taking care of the twoth that she had. And so, you know, as an adult now I see it now, I see it differently, and I and I realized it differently. But in those moments, um, as a kid, it was it was very very difficult because I wanted her around more and she just she wasn't She wasn't there, Um, she couldn't be. Yeah. Yeah, the the sort of experience that so many single moms don't get to have. Do you think that looking back, Like when you talk about the things you're able to process as an adult, understanding her her perspective from this vantage point being able to go to therapy and kind of unpack childhood, which you know, all of my listeners are like, oh my god, I Peter talks about her therapist for more time. But I'm telling you, I'm just like, therapy is where it's at. Like are there things that you can look at now and and draw a line between you know, in your adulthood to your childhood, like lessons that your mom taught you work ethic or prioritization of family, like having adopted your cousin? Do do you see those through lines differently now? I definitely see those three lines differently now, But it's also you know, I'm still working through it right, Like so like there's also this dynamic of culture, right and the way that she perceives life versus the way that I perceive it from a cultural standpoint. For example, like when I shaved my head seven years ago, like she was living and she didn't speak to me for months because in the Nigerian culture, like she would always say like a woman's hair is her glory, So she couldn't understand why I shaved my head. Like her first question was that are you on drugs, like like what do you like? What do you And I was like what because I because I shaved my head like it was it's just different dynamics like that and like understanding that, UM. And she's very much so conventional in the sense of like, you know, this is how I was raised, to the rules that I follow, and this is what you do, and I'm very unconventional. Um. I questioned everything, you know, like I I don't. I don't believe in social constructs like I know the person I know they exist, but I'm also I also questioned them. UM. And so we would get into it a lot because of that because I don't just do what I'm told, like I questioned everything, and she couldn't understand that. UM. Even so much so when I moved to l A from Houston. You know, we didn't speak for months because she felt that I was abandoned the family and I was like no, like I'm just growing up, like I'm I'm stepping into adulthood like things like this happened, and she couldn't wrap her mind around why would I want to leave? So you know, once again, like you know therapy has helped to give me this platform and this understanding in the language to be able to communicate what I've been feeling, because prior to that, like I just will hold everything in and out with stone wall, you know, versus now like with therapy, it's it's given me the tools and resources to be able to communicate um but also to just hold space for the complexities of a mother daughter relationship. Right. Yeah. One of the ways that I've come to kind of think about my experiences and and the way you just talked about it made me go, oh, yeah, that that feels. The way I've come to feel about it is years ago I started talking with my therapist about how therapy gives you a toolkit. And if you think about like a carpenter's belt, like a lot of people maybe have a hammer, And the more tools you're able to put in your tool kit, the more complex structures you're able to build. And when I think about a complex structure, I think about it as being something that can hold a lot of space. And it doesn't mean that your trauma is lessened per se, or that it wasn't a big deal, or that whatever struggle each of us has gone through isn't ours to own. It simply means you can you can hold this more complex space and things don't feel quite so triggering. They feel they just to me, I feel like kind of pieces of a puzzle, and the puzzle is of my life. And and for that, I'm I'm so grateful that we are having conversations in a time where discussions about mental health are becoming not only more publicly popular, but more more and more publicly acceptable. Yeah, I mean to I what what I think? It's so important for people to remember that our mental state is our our most powerful currency. Like it is the most powerful currency that we have, because that is from the space that we create everything. That is a space where ideology is created. It's the space where social constructs are created. Right. So, like we're able to talk right now because someone imagine that to be true. Right, Like we're able to like be in these homes and being cars and read books because it's first started in someone's thought and imagination. And so for me, it's like what therapy allowed for me was to remind me the power of my mental state, UM, the power of imagination, UM, the power of questioning things that were taught to be true. And you know that for me, when I got that, it rearranged everything for me. Was that a practice that began in your life after moving to Los Angeles or before after? For sure it was it was it was the introduction of yoga. And for me when it's it's more than the physical aspect of yoga, it's it's the mental and spiritual aspect of it. That part is what opened the gateway to that that knowing mm hmm, I love that. And I'm also sitting here being like, God, I need to go back to you because it's such a great practice and and I I've had to learn that in sort of my my personal in the complex structure of my life. So often when things get busy or or there are places to show up and and you know, serve or just helped to to show up as an activist or a person with a platform, like the first thing that goes is my movement and something about Interestingly enough that the intersection of what appears to be a global awakening that's long overdue with a global pandemic that is happening for the first time in a hundred years, is it it's reshaping my perspective on health in a really interesting way. And I just found a book in one of my book stacks and I started laughing. So I'm like, oh, look, I bought that book and then I never read it. And it's called it's called wealth, but it's spelled w E L L t H. And I was like, it's all about how your health is, like is the real currency? And I was like, cool, cool, I feel attacked by a book I bought myself. Great, but it's so true, right, Like what yoga taught me is that life is a practice, right, and so the question is always what are you practicing right? Um? And for me that is what shifted my perspective and everything, because it became more than just me going to do a physical practice at a studio. Um. It was like what was my practice on and off the mat um. And so for me, like having that be a mantra that carries me throughout the day is what has helped reshaped a lot for me as well. UM. But also to just understanding like what does wellness mean, you know, and and tapping into that because once again, like that's our true currency, Like it it's not it's not money, it's not this celebrity stuff. It's none of that, because you can have all of that and be the most miserable person. But you know, it's something, it's something powerful when you understand, um, the importance and the essential of your well being UM. And how how do you cultivate that? Yeah? So I'm curious. You know, you decided to come here and and yoga became this transformative discovery in your life. But was that something that motivated the move or or was it something that came as a byproduct of it? It came as a by product because I moved to l A UM through a retail company I was working for that I was, yeah that I absolutely I dreaded this company UM. And so they moved me here and after I had been with them for four years and by the time I moved, by the time they moved me to l a and then I was with them for six months and then I quit because I was just like I can't do this, Like this company is so disgusting. And I was like twenty six at the time or twenty seven, I think I was young, and like, I'm in a new state for like six months, I don't really know anyone. And then I was introduced to yoga. Um, and so that's what you know catapulted everything. And so what happens when when you get introduced to yoga? Did someone tell you about a studio or take you to a class, Like what's the first moment? Well, one of my friends was like, come try this yoga class. I mean, I was like, what is yoga? And she was like you like to work out? Right? I'm like yeah, and she's like it's like a workout class. And that's how it was introduced to me. So I go and it was a vinyasa class and I absolutely hated it. I was like, this is so mechanical. It's dangerous because, like you know, like unless you have a really good instructor, you can really hurt yourself in the vinyasa class because it's so mechanical and like, not every teacher is paying attention to detail. Not every student is paying attention to detail, like they're looking to the person next to them to figure out how to be opposed. And so I was like, I don't like this. So then I was like this sucks. Not going again. And then like a month later, another friend was like, have you reached restored if yoga? I think you'll love. And I was like, I'm done with yoga, and she was like, no, no no, no, you should really try it. And after a few back and forts, I finally said yes and went to a restorative yoga class, and I was like, this is heaven, Like this is what I want to, you know, continue to take like this is what you know Like this was It was inspiring to me. And so then I got a digged it to it and I would go for like five days a week for like two months. And then I was like, I want to teach this, like I'm gonna heal Black communities do like restorative yoga, And so I decided to get certified as a restorative yoga teacher. How long does getting certified as a yoga teacher take? It took a year, It takes about it took about nine months, nine or two months mm hmm. Yeah. And and it's interesting to me to think about all those poses, all those heart openers and hip openers and and back bends and things that really open up the middle of the body in ways that we're just not taught to do in regular life. The the connection to that emotional opening, to that kind of energetic flow of experience. I've I've witnessed people cry in yoga class kind of out of nowhere, And I now knowing what I do about how trauma lives in the body and and the way we experience things in our lives that get stuck, you know, in our muscles and and in our actual physical structures. I think about the experience we can have if we learn to open and move those things through. And and so I wonder what was there a part in the beginning, whether you were consciously aware of it yet or not. Was there a part of you that felt like, oh, this is doing something emotional for me? Also, yeah, because in the sort of class I took the first one, I cried too, Like the first one I cry, and it was doing a heart opening um pose and then it was led by a hip opener um and I could not understand it. And I was like, why am I crying? Like I was trying everything I could to hope at the tears and not break down an ugly cry in this class of like tweld people who I do not know. And then I was like when I left the class, I was like, what just happened? Like I was so curious about like why that was happening for me that I just started to do research And the more I started to read about the yoga practice, the more I start to read about the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervousness, and the more I start to read about the trauma that we hold in the body, the more I started to read about somatic healing and starts to click for me, and I was like, oh, like, not only is this powerful, but I want to be able to educate, especially communities of color about this because of the history of trauma that we've experienced. Um, and that's what spearheaded me into teaching yoga. That was gonna be the next question if that if got led into Oh this could heal people, especially to your point, people who have existed in communities where they've been oppressed or experienced community based violence. Can you walk some people through, because I'm sure there's some people at home who are like, but what is the para sympathetic nervous system? Can can you explain a little bit about what you're referring to as as a teacher and an expert. Yeah, so you know, part of the nervous system is a parasympathetic nervous system and a sympathetic nervous system, which is basically the fight or flight are what they call rest and digest and so typically most people are constantly in fight or flight. So that's when you're in this nervous state and the blood is really rushing to the brain and the muscle because it thinks that you're in danger. Right, So like you have like adrenaline being pumped into your blood, which is why you know most people, especially in black communities, fight or flight is with a lot like I said, like a nod of stress. It's it's it's basically encompassing a very stressful environment um and when you think about the traumas that black folks in particular experience, it makes sense why you know these you know, the diseases of like high blood pressure, are diabetes exists because when you're in a constant state of fight or flight, the blood is rushing to the brain and the muscle. It's not being able to circulate to the other parts of your reproductive system. Your nervous system, because it thinks that you're endangering, is trying to get you to a state where you're able to flee that versus when you're in a state of rest and digest the blood is able to flow to all these different systems, like it can flow to the reproductive system, it can flow to the digestive system, and it's able to give you to this space where you're able to be in a RESTful space UM, and the body is functioning an optimal level UM. Which is why typically, you know, when people are having a hard time getting pregnant, are having digestive issues, are having really any medical condition that certain that deals with the nervous system UM, a holistic practitioner would always offer a restorative yoga or meditation because it brings you to this state of calmness, and it brings you to this state of finding inner peace UM. And it's just it's it's powerful. Like you you witness people like literally who are like on medication for years and over time they're no longer using it. UM. Women who have been trying to get pregnant for years, who through a restorative practice or through acupuncture, through meditation, all of a sudden is now pregnant with twins. You know. It's it's a very healing and therapeutic practice that's been studied in practiced for years and Eastern culture, um, but not so much here in the Western culture m hm. And so through that awakening and that desire to transform, you know, you mentioned getting to a point where you have private clientele, so you get certified and then you are living here as a healer, as a yoga teacher, and that's kind of the plan, right until you have this conversation with Jed and and so I'm curious and I love it too when I was looking, when I was doing all my nerdy research on your background, and I was like, oh my god, you helped for this loving and loving day was last week, like everything just it's so weird, the synchronicity of all of this, And I makes me feel very emotional and excited. I wonder what what was that transition? Like, you know, you said you were going to give it three months, and you obviously went on to make a bunch of films with them. So I wonder when you go from full time teaching to moving to London to work at this production house, what what is that experience? Like? Is is there any kind of like culture shock moving to the UK? How does it feel going from you know, full time practitioner work to industry work. Like what what that feels like a like a head spinner to me? Oh, it definitely was. It was. I mean I think once I was like young and just like not reckless, was like, let's just try it and see what happens. Um. But you know, it was hard, Like moving to London was difficult. Um. I would be remiss if I didn't say that, Like it was one of the most um challenging times of my life because it is such a huge culture shock. Um. And you know, the first probably the first six months that I was there, I experienced depression on on on a very heavy scale because it was hard. Um. The culture is so completely different. The lack of sunshine was really hard to deal with. And also to like the food wasn't great um, and I love to eat, like, so like that was that was that was very difficult to deal with, um. But also to like You're going across the pond to a country that like I didn't know anyone but them, Like I knew no one really but Jet and then I met Colin and the team as I as I transitioned over there. But it was it was difficult and it was hard, and I questioned the first year, did I make the right move? Um? Because I was having such a hard time adapting to the culture of London, Like it's very much a very repressed culture, and you know, they believe in the Queen and all and all those things, and you know, there is a hierarchy in the business. There were like it's like I'm only a secretary, Like I can't say anything, Like I can't and I'm just like what, you have a voice too, like what do you think about this? You know? And even in meetings and deveulpment meetings, when I would push back on certain ideas, you know, people be like, oh, you can't say that, Like why why are you pushing back? And I was like because that I didn't make sense. What do you mean? Like you know, like like because I have a good idea, yeah, And I'm like, you guys are having the same discussion at the water cooler, but like you should be having it here in the meeting room. And they're like, oh, that's not how it works here. And I was like wait what Like so like you know this idea that like I was seen as like a rebel bucking the system. It was just a lot of it was a huge culture shock, you know, but you know there was also some beauties in it that I got to travel the world, like being in London, I can have on a flight for forty bucks and go to Spain or go to France, or you know, I got to experience culture in a way that I don't think I would have had I stayed in America. UM, teaching yoga, UM, I got to meet some incredible people and tell amazing story. So you know, it had his pros and his consum but it was definitely a mind fuck. So sorry, a mind uh spin. So it's fine, yeah, whatever, you transition to living in that space. And it strikes me you know too. Two of the films that you're credited on is as we we mentioned a little earlier, or I Am the Sky and Loving, and these are both movies that are talking about what's happening in the world. You know. I Am the Sky was positing what are the ethics of drone warfare? You know, positing that question which we need to be asking, and and Loving took us back in time to look at how it really wasn't that long ago that interracial marriage was deemed was was illegal and was only deemed to be legal it's like being alive now. Granted I don't think racism went anywhere, but it's so crazy to think that we do these things over and over again, like that in the era of Loving versus the United States, two people had to defend their right to be married because they were in love, and in our lifetime we've had to watch LGBTQ community go to court to defend the same And it's like, what are we doing here? And and what it makes me think a lot about is what you referenced, that everything is a social construct. Everything we think of as normal has been created by someone and most of what we in the world through, you know, imagery that affects us unconsciously or subconsciously. Two stories were told um that we're aware of very consciously. Most of these structures were created by people in power, and most people historically in power have been white men. So when we are speaking about wanting to dismantle the white supremacist patriarchy and create a new system, it's interesting too to see how many people get rattled by that. And perhaps it's it's the luxury of it's it's my privilege of exposure and of having a diverse community and I could go on and on, but I I think about how important it is too undo the lesson, and your movie is undoing so much of the lesson. And and if I may say, for the listeners, you know, we have to think about what history we've been taught and what history has been left out of the books. And just as you know, Ogie, you and I can identify what it is to be the victims of sexism and of patriarchy as women. The way that so many women who have invented throughout history have been left out of the story. The compounding effect for black women is exponential and immeasurable. And if I want to fight for my right as a woman who was born in a body that is white, to be equal to the boys in the room, I can't do that, or I'm not doing that authentically or effectively if I'm not acknowledging that for any of my friends who are women of color, and in particular black women, If I don't acknowledge how much harder it is for you to be in that same room, then what is my activism? What is what is my call out of the patriarchy? And your movie it this beautiful movie. Everyone listening at home. I can't wait for you to see this is a true re education of what has been left out of our history. And I wonder the circle back when you said I can't do this. It's a big it's a big story to try to unpack, and it's so much to try to expose. How did you begin to get past the initial I can't do this um in all honesty, prayer and meditation because I had to, like after you know, like speaking with Halle and like you know, other friends who was like, no, like you gotta do this. I went into deep meditation for a few days because I had to really sit with it, and you know, in in that practice, like I was just like, okay, like all you can do is try, like you gotta at least try to tell the story. And so when I got to a space of understanding that, I began my research. So you know, I started The pre production base for me for research was about seven months, six days a week, fourteen hour days. And you know, I would read everything that I could about black women. I would read articles and books written by black women about black a man. I just fully immersed myself into this this learning um and it was it was like within the first month of that that, you know, it really tried to hit me like holy sh it, like what we've been taught in school is revisionist history because sixt of what I learned I had no clue about. And I was thirty two when I started making this project, and I'm like, how did I not know this? And you know, like, I went through a plethora of emotions from like I was really angry at myself for the first month, I was disappointed in myself. I was angry because I felt like I should have known this, especially being a black woman. I felt like I should have known more about our history and the fact that I didn't at the age of thirty two, I felt very disappointed with myself and angry at myself um. And then eventually those emotions, you know, transpired into anger and rage towards the system um and being like oh, you know, now it's just making me question like, Okay, well, why why do you think you were not taught this? And then I would question like, oh, like who's writing the history books right, like how does it serve them to not tell these stories? And then I had to go and think like, Okay, now that you understand this more clearly. How do you fuel take this anger and this rage and this disappointment and allow it to read direct you into a way that will empower you to tell these stories as best as you could. Um And then you know, I had to get back into therapy because I had stuff I had. I hadn't been in therapy for a while prior to doing this, and then you know, by month three of doing this research, I was like, there's just no way I can finish this without being in therapy because you know, like I said, I was doing it six days a week, fourteen hours a day, and like on the day that I didn't work, which is typically Sunday, I couldn't got to bed for like the first half of the day, Like I would be in bed crying because you know, after reading the slave narratives and you know, reading like all the history from a medical apartheid on black woman's bodies to just you know, the labeling, like it was a lot to hold and I was realizing that it was destabilizing me in a way that if I wanted to really do this justice and get through to it, I needed the extra health therapy to help me process what I was holding. I can I can't imagine. It's interesting, It's my My next question for you was, how do you manage to hold space for stories that have that carries so much weight and so much intensity. It It strikes me because it feels even looking in from the outside, it feels so confronting and so devastating and so heartbreaking to listen to these stories, to understand these narratives that were left out of pages. It crystallizes why in nineteen sixty two, Malcolm X said, the most disrespected person in America is the black woman. The most unprotected person in America is the black woman. The most neglected person in America is the black woman. And it is impossible not to feel empathetically the the expansiveness of what that kind of lack of protection and what that kind of neglect has done to black women. When you sit and you listen to these researchers, and you sit and you listen to the activists and these mothers, all of these women who you interviewed, and you go through history in such a way that you find out that this is not new. I think that your film will be illuminating and confronting for a lot of people who watch it, and and I wonder how how in the midst of that weight, and and and the sadness that comes with seeing the writing on the wall like that, how do you turn that feeling? How do you turn that that quote that is sixty years old about respect? How do you how do you turn it into a fuel for you as an artist and as a storyteller. I think for me it was it was really about knowing that UM, at the end of the day, me creating this was bigger than me, and every day from the first day of production until the last day of post when we picturelogued, I would go into it with my crew sending intention that we just allow ourselves to be vessels for this project, that there was no egos and this, that we will remain open to the process, that we had to make changes UM, and that we truly allowed ourselves to be vessels to get these stories across UM because I felt that I owed it to my ancestors and two black women in particular, to tell this story. You know, like in reading and learning what I learned in those months of research, I had no choice, you know, I had no choice. I had to find a way to take those those heard emotions that I was feeling and allowed to feel me in a way that would allow me to tell these stories, um, in a way that would be understood and accepted um first and foremost by black women, and then secondly by everybody else. Mm hmm. And and was looking at that larger narrative, the untold, often untold experiences of black women in America. Did that recalibrate some of your own experiences with your own identity? Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I mean I tend to say to my friends and they all know this is that for me, this experience felt like a rebirth for me. UM. It gave me permission to be fully who I was. UM. It also taught me a lot about not only myself, about the history of black women. UM. And you know that, you know, I will forever be grateful for UM. I definitely am not the same person going in that I was going into this project. I can tell you that. UM it definitely changed me in in countless ways. Something that really struck me again when we talk about systems, and when we really acknowledge as humans that systems were just created by someone, that we have the capacity to envision better systems and and I look at it as having a duty to do so, because, as you discussed in the film, our current system was quite literally designed to produce these outcomes. It is an ugly truth, but an important one that we look at that the economic foundation of this country is quite literally rooted in and built on the exploitation of black women's labor and black women's bodies. And something that struck me listening to the poet who does many readings and film was that she was talking about the sacrifice of women and how so often their sacrifices are not acknowledged because it's assumed that as women will sacrifice ourselves for love for our men, are partners, are children, and that that struck me as so I just was so sad and mad because I don't know why, as women we are expected to erase ourselves were the good of something out there, and the the proximity to that reality I can feel as a woman, but also the distance from the reality being talked about in the movie because I'm not a black woman was not lost on me. Um So, when I think about again the intersection at which all of the subjects of the movie sit and and how there is this incredible infographic which explains how black women feel both racism and sexism, how they become essentially the oppressed of the oppressed. I'm wondering if as a bit of education, UM, a bit of a preview for for the listeners who I know are going to go and watch this movie, because my listeners are read and they really like homework. UM, and this is like, this is like church homework, It's like spiritual work. UM. Can you walk us through those boxes? Can can you walk us through what that intersectionality means in terms of sexism and racism? Yeah? So UM. A part of the documentaries, UM, I was researching this incredible, incredible scholar and author named Dr Joy de Grew who wrote this book called post Traumatic slavee Syndrome, and I highly recommend that anyone who has a capacity to read beyond the fifth grade level read this book. Her book rearranged me in the most profound way in reading that. UM. And when I was interviewing her, we were talking about, you know, just the way that black women are positioning into society, and we were talking about that in disgusting and I was just like, I get it, but like, what can we show them? Like I need people to physically to visually get it. And she was like, oh, I got you real quick, let me explain to you, like we're still rolling. I'm like, yeah, we're still rolling. And then she just goes into it. She's like, so there's a high acrea system, right. She was like, you know, at the top of that system is white men, and then you have two arrows going down from each side, and one arrow goes down to white women, and then the other arrow goes down to black men. And then from the boxes of white women and black men, you have two arrows going down to women of color, and from women of color, you have one arrow going down and that is black women. And you know, she was basically saying that black women are the oppressed of the oppressed, like we are seeing as the mules of the world through the gazes of sexism and racism. So with black men, black men experienced racism from white men, and white women experience and sexism from white men, and then black men also experienced racism from white women. But when you point those boxes all the way down to black women, we not only experienced sexism and racism from white women and white men, but we also experienced sexism from black men, and so she basically is given this. I mean, she articulated so beautifully, um how you can. And we just after her saying that, I was like, I gotta create a chart off of this like that, I gotta show people visually how this makes sense and how this is all set up. Um. And by seeing that chart, I think it really hits home for you, like, holy fuck, Like black black women really are perceived as the mules of this world and the oppressed of the oppress um. And so you know, when I created that chart and I'm in post and I'm looking at it, I'm like, oh, this is going to really hit home. Because even though I had done the interview and making the post um and making the graph and working on it in post, like, it was moments that I would cry because I'm like, it's hitting me even harder by visually seeing it. Mm hmmm hm. That was a really intense moment for me. Also, there there is something that is so powerful in my experience of being able to visualize it complex concept and when you look at all of those arrows pointing toward one box, you just go, that's a lot to be on the other end of and and when you look at those sort of societal experiences and then you go backwards and you get this education. You know, as you mentioned in Enjoy's book, when when she talks about what post traumatic slave syndrome means, the multi generational trauma, which again we're alive at a time where science has been able to prove this. They've been able to look at the actual changes in d NA passed down from traumatized people to their children. You look at it in Holocaust survivors, You look at at these same ings in black families with lineage that comes from slavery. This is not to be underestimated the toll it takes on a people having been enslaved, beaten, experimented on, raped, sold. You know when when she she said something that was so obvious, but that made me just burst into tears when she got into the explanations around how enslaved African women were given no rights to their bodies or to their own children. And she looked at the camera and said, do you really think that? And she was, she said they she was referencing white men's slave owners, landowners. You really think they waited till the girls were eighteen and I just started sobbing this this idea that young girls were in in that era, that this was almost like a what's the word I'm looking for? This was an older practice of sex trafficking, that that mothers had to watch their daughters go through this and couldn't say anything. That that that this line of taking access to women's bodies, which again, all of us, all women, should be enraged hearing that, and understand that if our experiences, however proximal or specific they may be, to sexual trauma, enrage us for ourselves, for our friends, for our sisters. They have to they have to be things we look at in our lineage. Also that that there was you know that that the father of modern gynecology created all of this horrific research which really was experimenting on black women because slave owners were bringing black women in and saying like fix her, fix her body, like she's been raped so many times that she doesn't work anymore, Fix her so we can rape person more. I mean, this is and and I know that this is probably really a lot to hear for people who are listening to this conversation, and if it is triggering to you, I apologize. And also I want to just say, like it should go without stating, but take care of yourself and whatever way you need to. But my request would be, even if this is a conversation that's tough to listen to, that that the movie is one that you sit with people you trust or feel safe around and watch because we have to know our history. We have to know this stuff so that we can understand how we got to where we are. We any woman who who values being able to have a cervical cancer screening, get a perhaps mirror, make sure you know you're not developing breast cancer. We we have Henrietta Lacks to thank for that. Yes, you know, we wouldn't have cancer treatments without a black woman contributing to science. And what angers me is that she wasn't even asked to contribute, She wasn't given the rights, her family didn't get to profit share in the fact that even today, the sole cultures that mean we have cancer treatments belonged to her. You know, the the taking and profiting off of black women has been happening for so long and if we don't educate ourselves about this to your point, making these discoveries at thirty two, if we don't learn about the reality of this stuff, we won't see its roots. We won't see those rotten roots in so many of our systems. And if we as women want to envision a better system than a white hood, normative patriarchy, we have to pull all the rotten roots out and cultivate the ones that are good, the ones that have been created in different systems we have to create. We have to cultivate something new altogether. Here, I wonder as we look at that landscape, and I know that's a a bit of a highlight reel of some of the things people will learn much more about in the movie. When we think about the natural reaction which I imagine so many people have, which is to say, how could that happen? How could no one do anything? How how could we have not known this? It seems to me that some of this comes from stereotyping. And you discuss in the movie as well that stereotypes are controlling images, that they are made to keep people in boxes, and that in particular, the stereotypes that have been placed onto black women have been incredibly des humanizing. Um and you reference three of those stereotypes in particular, would you educate the audience on on what they are. Yeah. So in the field them we talk about you know, Dr Patricia Hill Collins coined the term controlling images regarding stereotypes, and so we talk about a few of them, which is, you know, this whole idea of the mammy figure, which ironically woke up this morning to Quaker Oats saying that they realized a hundred and fifty years later that Jemima's racist and so you know, it's just kind of like and then that removing that, But it's like that to me is an impressive that you're you're now figuring out a hundred and fifty years later that you're selling the product that has a racist image. I think what most people are looking for is for them to come out and say, you know what, we realize that this is a racist image, and we want to donate millions of dollars to the likenesses of these women, these black women that we've used to sell and market this product. Now that's a conversation I want to have Until they are able to do that, it's like okay, like you realize it, and then what like what are you gonna do next? Um, So you know, we talked about this whole image of like Jemima UM and how that's been placed on the black woman to keep her small and to keep her in the box. Um. We talk about this notion of the jazzebel and the sapphire of sexualizing black women and how that plays into like rape culture of black women. UM. We talk about, you know, the labeling of black women as a welfare queen and as being seen as lazy. You know, we we we literally we explore all these labels because for me, when when you see the film, it's it's broken into three sections hurt, resilient, and beautiful. And with the hurt aspect of the documentary, I wanted to explore how black women have been hurt in the three dimensional sense, UM, how we've been physically hurt that talks about the rape culture and the medical apartheid on black women's bodies. But then also I want to talk about the mental aspect of the hurt, which is the labeling and how when you've created these, um, these stereotypes that perpetuate through culture, through music, through films, how that affects Black women and how black women are then perceived through those images. And then you know, I wanted to wrap that section up by talking about the emotional aspect of the hurt. So, once you've been physically and mentally hurt in this regards, how do you see yourself as a back women and how does that affect you in seeing yourself? But not only that, how do you then relate to other black women in society as a whole? And so in that section of the documentary, that's you know, mainly what that's about. And so the stereotyping to me was a no brainer, especially when we're talking about the mental aspects of heart because you know, once again it's it all goes back to the power of our mental state, right, like, how are we being conditioned? How are we you know, being conditioned with these social constructs? Like that's what it all, boys, I mean, that's what all of this boils down to. And I was so fascinated. I've looked at a lot of the data around social programming and and welfare systems and community investment and how it's actually so much less expensive as a nation to invest in communities, to invest in addiction treatment, to invest in schools, to invest in after school programs than to do what we're doing so, I've always rolled my eyes it and people who want to say that those are wastes of money or to expect SI And I realized that in understanding, we're looking at a lot of data. I've never looked at the root of this myth of the you know, quote unquote welfare queen, Like I didn't know that it comes from an era where black women were not allowed to access social security, which, by the way, everybody else could, and women started demanding their equal treatment under government funding, and then suddenly they were perpetuated as leaching off of a system. And I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense though, because there's plenty of white people who are unwelfare. And also, like, what does anyone think their mortgage a percentage of your mortgage right off? Like that's also socialism, and nobody's mad about that. Like our roads are paid for by quote unquote socialism, and our schools are paid for by quote unquote socialism. Like there's a social contract to being a member of any country, and it's meant to be equally accessible. And it made me think out what we're seeing a lot of now modern political party, the demonization of so many brown people this idea of like the quote unquote illegal immigrant who's like mooching off the American system. And I'm like, does is anyone going to talk about the fact that undocumented people put billions of dollars into the U. S. Economy every year and and are paying taxes, and are are are paying into services they're actually not allowed to benefit from. Yeah, And and I was like, Wow, they've really just been at it for so long, like the powers that be have been at the demonization of the people who they want to oppress the most were so long and they're still using the same playbook and just applying it to different groups over and over and over and over again. Yeah. That was really that was really so just jarring to me. Yeah, it's you know, it's it when you it went again to right, it's it really is about doing the research. Right, Like most people live distracted lives, right, and so they're not questioning what they're being taught, like you know, like they're just accepting it to be truth. But when you actually do the independent investigation and you actually do the research, like you really realize like how much of a mind funk this really is. And it also once again it was for me, it continues to remind me the power of the mind, Like if you can control someone's mind, it's a rap, you know, like it really really is. And so it's it's really understanding, um, which is why I'm like the fact that we don't teach about mental health and schools and the power of the minding schools. I think it's very intentional, Like you don't want people to understand that full power because if they did, you will have what we're having right now, which is an uprising. So for me, this pandemic set a stage for us, whether it was conscious or unconsciously, because we were shut in, Like you had no choice but to really do the work and self reflect. You had no choice but to get quiet. You had no choice but to question how is our government not prepared for this? Like why are so many people so frame? And it laid the foundation for this uprising that happened, you know, and now people are like, I'm fed the funk up, Like and no, I see right through this ship now, like the bill has been lifted. And so as much as you know this pandemic has been unfortunate for so many, it's also a blessing in disguise m And I love that because it it makes me think of what Dr Patricia Hill Collins says in your movie that publicly it's such a good quote. I was like, God, if I was Oprah Winfrey on my show, I'd be like tweet it, like and do you know if anybody has a great quote, that's my favorite thing, she says, And like, one day I just want Oprah to hear me say something and be like tweet it. Um. But but when when Dr hill Collins says publicly articulating rage typically constitutes less a revelation about oppression than a discovery of voice, I'm going to say it again because I know somebody at home is like, wait, wait, wait, that was brilliant. Obviously she is brilliant. Publicly articulating rage tiply constitutes less a revelation about oppression than a discovery of voice. So many people, to your point, in this time at home, have had so much about oppression revealed to them that they are discovering their voices. And it is such a beautiful thing to watch. And and as you talk about, you know these sections of of your movie hurt and resiliency and and beauty, there there is a beauty I think in the reclamation of to your point, your power, your mind, your your mental state. Yeah, I mean I think it's true. Like and you know, making this documentary hit a home for me, Like I I mean, I was dream about the mental health from the rooftop, from this day and to the day I die, because I really understand the importance of it and the power of it um and I just want people to awaken to that, you know, Like, like what we're doing now, like all the change that is happening now is because people are rediscovering their voice and they're understanding that they have a say and what they have to say matters, you know, and it's it's like it's it's a beautiful thing to see, Like it's a beautiful thing to see cities buckling on there at their knees right now and be like, Okay, we'll change it. We'll change it, will change it, you know, because initially, like we forgot that we held the power. We forgot that we are the reason why they are employed, you know, through the but like you know, so it's our exactly, and we will replace you if you don't listen to us, you know. So it's a it's a beautiful thing to be alive at this moment, you know, like it's it's it's remarkable when when you think about where beauty comes from. And I don't want to skip over resiliency actually because because we are talking about resilience has such a pillar of your film, and and the resilience, the resiliency of black women is beautiful, and you touch on why it can risk fet fettization and and be dangerous also because then there can be this idea of what, we're so resilient that you know, we don't need much from you. How how do you figure out how to balance that? What would you want viewers to be thoughtful about in terms of the way they view the resiliency of black women. You know, that's a complex question because, like you said, like resiliency, it's it's used as a double edged sword for black women, right, Like it's that notion of like, you're so resilient, you'll get through this. But there's also that notion, as you said, where it's like you're so resilient that we don't have to worry about how we treat you, you know, And so it's this idea of of seeing women through Black women through the gaze of being superhuman, and it's like we're not, you know, like for most of the for most of us, we have no choice. So it's not it's not even about like we want to be resilient, to be strong, like you have no choice. And an example of that is when you in the film you know Helen Helen Jones, you know, like who lost her son, John Horton, who you know, her son was an Ac County Jelan was murdered um by l a County um Sheriff's department, um in prison and they try to stage it as a suicide, you know, and you know the resiliency of her and just the strength of who she is, like she had no choice, you know, she lost her son and she had no choice, Like she couldn't buckle down and just give in to what they told her to be true when she knew what they were saying was a lie. She had no choice but to fight that they would be held accountable because she wasn't gonna seek justice. Justice will be John still being alive, right, So she had to fight for accountability. And ten years later she's still fighting for that accountability. And not only she still fighting for that accountability. She now shows up to families who have lost their sons and daughters to police brutality to help them navigate how their first day is going to go, to help them navigat how that first month and year is going to go. And I had to ask it, like, how do you do that? You not feel like you're reliving John's death every time you meet a new family and go through that, And you know, she was like, of course I do, and it's hard, But I also know what it felt like ten years ago when Black Lives Matter did not exist. I also know what it felt like in that moment when I found out not having anyone walk me through those moments. And I wouldn't wish that on any anybody else. And so it's not a it's not a matter of choice when it comes to the resiliency and strength of black women. Most of the times, it's a you have no option, right, And it does strike me that again, it's a reclamation, you know, for her to say, no matter what, when I see a black man murdered by the police on TV, that's going to re traumatize me. I can either sit and fall apart in that pain or use it, use it as a fuel to do something about it. You know, my my friend Glenn and Doyle, who does a lot of you know work calling white women into this space, always says like, what is your sacred rage? And I think about that for mothers, I think about that, for victims of assault. I think about that like it is a sacred rage to know that there will be no justice, but that you can perhaps help to create justice for another out of the thing that should have never happened to you. And I would be remiss as we speak about her case to not remind any listeners who are tuned in right now who live in l A or l A County that what the l A County d A's race has been called the second most important race, second only to the presidency. Jackie Lacey is up for reelection. She has been a terrible DA to this city. Not a single police officer has been prosecuted for the murders of six and eighteen black people in l A since she took office. These are the kinds of cases where talking about people being murdered in police custody with evidence that they were murdered. This is a a tragedy and an insult to justice. And so please, if you live in Los Angeles, look into the d a's race. Make sure you know who you're voting for. Make sure you know what we are up against. You know, when when the people at b L M l A Are saying Jackie Lacy has got to go, they mean it, and and it's our job to be on board and make sure that she does. Because if we don't have somebody in that position who holds people accountable, not only does it not create change here, but the d AS race here is set to set the stage for DAS races and practices across America. We have to lead on this, and the only way we lead on this is if, as og you just said, like, we remind these people that they work for us, and we will replace them if they do not demand justice on behalf of the people. It's it's our job to to replace this person with a new d A. I agree, and you know I think once again too, like you know, like our call. You know, the call of action is to replace Jackue Lacey. But do the research, you know, follow b LM b L M l A, UM, follow Dr Lenov Duel, who's leading a charge on that you know, show up to the protests that happens every Wednesday. Helen Jones and a lot of the mothers of these of these plain kids show up to Jack You Lacey's office every Wednesday for years now, every Wednesday, demanding justice, demanding she held these cops responsible. UM so join that, join the organization of that joined the protests and that um but also to vote Jack You Lacey out, like she has to go, like there is no other option. Yes, And this this is one of the things I love that you touch on in the movie, as well as the possibility for everyday activism. And this is one of those possibilities. This is a place where you can put activism into your every day and and we have to center families. It's it's such an incredibly important place to start. Yeah, And it's you know, it's it's it's also an easy like if you can't, if you can't, because I also get to like, you know, activism looks different for everyone. You know, like your form isn't you know, to be there in person and protests and march with these families, like share share the information on social media, you know, talk to people in your community about it. Get your friends that live in l A County, the sign up, a rest of the vote. There's so many different ways that you can contribute to the conversation, into the movement, you know. But at the end of the day, I think the north star is that Jackie Lacy has to go yes. And we need to remember that we truly as a constituency or in this together, and we have to show up for each other, agree like this idea that that person over there their issue, where their fight is not my fight. It's like this is all of our fight. Yes, these are our communities, these are our people, these are our neighbors, these are our taxpayer dollars at work that are either supporting people are torturing people, Like it is our issue and and that it's it's in that that I that I do find that spark, that kind of that beauty of inspiration, like of possibility of the places that we can go if we go together. When when you move from the sort of beauty of activist possibility into actual the actual highlighting of the beauty like beauty industry, beauty of black women in the movie, does that also feel like a reclamation of space? Um? Yeah, because you know, for me, it was about creating a space where black women were celebrated in all of their glory, right it was it was it was creating a space where you know, the physical attributes which have been deemed for so long to be so unattractive, was then was now given a space to be celebrated like and I mean it, it recently has been celebrated because people pay to get those things done. But I wanted to create space for you know, black women and um to be celebrated for those attributes. And so, you know, filming that was actually too one of the most powerful moments because so many of those women after filming just broke down crying when we had cut because they were just like, I've never been able to say to myself that, you know, my full lips are beautiful. I've never had anyone to repeat back to me that my kinky hair was beautiful. And you know, they would break down crying, and then like I would break down crying. And you know, in the process of it, which is in the in the film you'll see, is that I had them look themselves in the mirror and and talk to themselves, you know, because I think that's a very very powerful practice, and every single one without fail. We had to we we had to shoot it like multiple times because not only had they not done that before most people don't do that, but they were like, this is hard, you know, because I don't think that I'm that beautiful? Are I don't think that like my lips are beautiful. I don't think that my nose is small enough. Like it was all these different things that they kept saying they didn't think to be true, and I had to create a space to empower gonna be like, okay, but what is beautiful about you? You know, like what would you tell your fourteen year old self now? And it was healing and therapeutic for not only them, but for me as well, you know, because it made you realize like how deeply ingrained these stereotypes have been for us, you know, like even when you think that like you're surpassive and you're like, I don't I don't agree with that, Like you can call me all go digger, Well for a queen, I'm over. I know who I am. But when it comes to really confronting yourself, how that could be very challenging mm hmm. And and in a world where everywhere we look, women are told there are not enough of this or too much of that, or not tall enough or not then enough, or not strong enough or not it's it's relentless, and it's relentless for women through the lens of a beauty industry that has historically only elevated ideals of European beauty. So again, I think about I think about the chart, I think about the ultiple arrows that point at the experience of black women every day. I wonder because we are at this interesting point, as you mentioned, where the veil has come off, where so many people are really looking at the reality of this stuff clearly, and and so many white people are realizing what the experiences look like for black people in America. And I think so many white women are I hope and I pray really considering what the experiences of being black women in America are for our neighbors, like what is your what what makes you hopeful? And what what's your hope for people who watch this film, you know, what are what are you hoping? Is? Is the aha moment as they experienced this with you? Um well, what makes me hopeful is this space that we're in collectively at the moment. I think that because of you know, like I said, the pandemic, that has set the stage for deep reflection and self awareness. What makes me hopeful is that people are now more open to the re education. People are now more open and receptive to reimagining what's possible. So those aspects make me hopeful. What I hope that people, you know, take away from the film of the ah Ha Moment is a little bit too fold. Um. The first is that I hope that people truly walk away from this film understanding deeply the contributions Black women have made to this society, and that people start to hold space and reverence for black women, um and their contributions. And then the other thing is that, you know, I hope that it serves as hope, that it serves as a re education two people. And in that regard, for me, there is no one answer on what the call to action is because I think it takes someone doing that independent investigation themselves and doing the work because what I need as a black woman may would be completely different than what the next black woman needs. But I think that if you walk away from this film with a deeper understanding of black woman's history and a deeper understand of how once privilege may play a role in that that you will do the self work to figure out like how you can show up better, and in doing that, I think the answers will come. I don't think there's just one collective answer on what that looks like. I think it'll look like many different things from many different people. Um. But I think the first step is people doing the work mm hmm. Something that a friend of mine told me that she did this week, which I loved, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna put it on the podcast. She said that because so much of what has been shared in this time, so many people are sharing these incredible Google docs of anti racism resources, resources and and reading lists and things, she took one of the she sort of compiled a list from a bunch of the reading lists she looked at, and she took it and all the head of the school she attended for junior high in high school and said, I know none of these books were on the reading list when I went to school there, but how many of them are now? And how many days do I have to call you in a row until you start changing your curriculum? And I was just like there it is, you know. And I thought about that, and I thought, how many of us have the opportunity, even in you know, whatever our little sphere of influence might be, to call the school that we attended and say, hey, I want to know what's on your reading curriculum. And prime example of what I mean, like there's no one called to action. But because she's been exposed to this new re education and she did the work of self reflecting, like Okay, what does showing up look like for me, she came up with the idea to go and do that, right, So that's what I'm saying, Like it takes people doing the work and then those answers will show what was it looks different for everybody, Like I would never even about to do that, Like that's incredible, you know, and I love it. And and to your point also about if you're an l A resident, you can come to these protests on Wednesday mornings. People might not have known that there are so many things to do, but I think that this kind of place is where you start, you know, you come to this film, you begin your re education you and then you have this sort of illumination of your experience and the way that you wish it might have been different, the way you see how it could have been more equitable, The way you see how, even if it was unconscious, the way we've been doing things has been upholding this system. And why wouldn't we look to change it? Yeah? Because the system, the system that has been so harmful to women who look like you. The great lie is that it has anything for women who look like me. It doesn't have anything for us. A a white supremacist society and exclusively patriarchal society. It doesn't have anything for any of us. It's toxic to everyone. And and my hope is that this removal of a will will will really illuminate other other opportunities, other ways forward, and new opportunities for for a vision of who we can all be going forward. I hope so too. I have one last question for you. It's my favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show. The podcast is called work in progress, and I'm curious when you hear the phrase, is there something that comes to mind, if it's personal or professional, or any in any vertical of life, really that that feels like a big work in progress for you right now? Um, I think for me, the work in progress is the healing. Right. I think for me that healing will, for be, will forever be a lifelong journey for me, and I think for most black folks in particular, UM, but for me UM more specifically, I think the work in progress is the healing, because you know, we're, as much as we are reimagining what's possible and working towards a new society, we all sort of still living in the current one that we have, and so we go through these phases where like you're healing and then a week later there's another quelling that's been recorded, and then like you're re traumatized again, right, and then you're like okay, like let me heal through this and figure out like how can I, you know, wrap my mind mentally and emotion around the idea that I'm hunted because of the color of my skin. And then another killing happens. And so for me, I think the work in progress is the healing because not only does it it guide me personally, it guides me professionally as well. UM. It aligns me with what my purposes and the different ways that I can create and the different mediums of what I can create and what that looks like. Um So for me, yeah, it's the it's the healing journey m hm. And is there as we think about calls to action, as we as we think about how we show up for each other in that healing journey and your experience you know, in the world right now, is there any specific kind of support that you need, whether that's from me as a new friend granted through a phone screen, or or from or from our listeners for today's conversation, you know, how how can we best support you? Um? I think the best support that I could cultivate at this moment is a support around the film because even in making this film, it's been unconventional from the very beginning of it even up into the distribution, Like you know, I submitted to festivals and to a few studios and they all were like, this film is phenomenal, what we don't know how to market it or but it doesn't it doesn't work for us late And so I had to take all those rejections and use it as a as a tool as redirection for me to the point where I was like, Okay, well, I'm just gonna teach you why these stories are important. I'm gonna teach you why you should support black filmmakers and black creatives, and so I decided to self distribute, you know. And so for me, like in this moment, as afraid as I am taking this huge leap of faith, the biggest support for me is just spreading the word about the film and having people watch the film, and having people talk about the film and create a grassroot movement around it and hopes that you know, we it plays into the re education of society as a whole um, not just in the fay that we show up, but also in the industry and why it's important to not just support black women but women in general. So for me right now, that is the biggest ask that I could ask if anyone um is to help me cultivate support around the film. Mm hmm, we can do that. Thank you, Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time, and and thank you for being willing to, you know, have a conversation that I imagine that in the midst of healing bumps on a lot of wounds. Yeah, but I think is so enlightening for so many people who are sitting at home and and getting to hear you speak, and who probably have so many of the questions you know that that I was able to ask on on you know, my behalf and on the behalf of so many listeners. I realized the privilege of a platform like this where I can ask questions and interview people who so many people don't have the luxury to encounter or ask questions of. And and I know that it's also not always easy to sit and have to answer them over and over and over again when you're promoting something, especially something is as deeply putting to the insides of yourself and the world. Is this so? And just I'm very grateful likewise, and you know, like whenever I think it's food any creative and you know, I think we all are creative, right, but I think you know, when you create something, when you create something that pour your heart and soul into you know, like you guys want people to receive in the way that you intended for, you know, like my life into this, you know. And so I'm I'm deeply grateful for people who see it and receive it in the way is that they do. Um, So thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I I just somewhat crossing my fingers that this well, I know this is going this movie is going to be immeasurably important. And then I'm also crossing my fingers that this pandemic that has us in this wild time is safely over for people soon, and I can come and take a you over class with you and also take you out for a drink, because I would like to properly toast your your work and your soul and what what you've shared. H m hmm, Thank you so much. This show is executive produced by me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Caate Linley. This episode is edited by Matt Sasaki and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by The Brilliant Anatomy