Hi everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Oh how I love Today's guest, love the Agi E Jones is a New York Times best selling author, speaker, and podcast host whose work combines comedy, justice, and, as she says, professional troublemaking. I was so excited to have my soul sister friend on the show. This has been a long time coming. We spoke about how we actually met, which was through Oprah, Yes, Queen Oprah's super Soul One, so of course we bonded over our mutual Oprah session, and we talked about many of the adventures we've been able to go on since, including traveling around in the country speaking to incredible audiences and women on the Together Tour. We also went backwards talking about Lovees moved to Chicago from Nigeria at nine, the changes that she made so she could feel like she fit in, when she finally embraced her interactivist and the importance of her writing. And if you haven't read I'm judging you the Do Better Manual. It's a must, and now she's working on her second book, The Fear Fighter Manual. I cannot wait to read it, and I cannot wait for you all to get to know, love you better enjoy. When we did share them like now, and we did our lives so many people. I was so touched by the comments of people saying, it's so special to see your friendship and your intimacy and your clear affection for each other, and and and people wanted to know how we knew each other, and so god, how long has it been? Now? Six hears me something like that. We were introduced thanks to our friends over at the Together Tour, Glenn and Doyle started this incredible No, Sophia, it was beforehand. You forgot where we actually met. Okay, it's a very much story, But where you and I met and connected before Together Tour was Oprah Winfrey's super soul one hund Oh my god, of course. Literally know when we've talked about it, my brain. The first time we ever spoke publicly together was Together Tour. You're right, Oh my god, I gotta go back. Quarantine brain is real. No, you're right, oh my god, of course, because okay, so we all get we all get to the Super Soul one hundred and everyone in the room is amazing. And actually, you know, I'm just given some some some some like background on that what super Soul one yes, which is so that's why me and Sophia became obsessed with each other because so super So one D is a list of a hundred people who Oprah when if he chose as people who are elevating humanity. And it was two thousand and sixteen, four and a half years ago, four and a half years ago. It was four and a half years ago, was right before my book came out, because I remember I still had locks, Okay, I still had locks of my hair, and so Oprah did a special brunch just for the Super Soul one hundred and this list is insane, Like this list is like Deepak Chopra, Arianna Huffington, Ava do Renee and d I read Jesse Williams like it's basically this crazy list that I when I first got the notification that like they chose me to be a part super So one hundred, I think I deleted the email because I didn't think it was really I thought it was spam. I was like I was like this whatever this is spam. Somebody's messing with me. It was when my manager called to tell me about it, and I was like, oh my god, I get to do it. I get to go on Super Soul Sunday. And she was like, no, no, no, she's not asking you to be on the talk show. She nominated you to be one of the one hundred. And I was like the one hundred what I couldn't It was like suddenly I couldn't speak English. I was like, I don't understand what you're saying. Because there are so many people in the world. Why why am I on this list? I don't get it correct? Same question I had, Oh my god. And we got to that brunch Everyone's amazing, and you and me and Sarah Elizabeth Lewis from Harvard sat at a table together and we were like we were like kids with the church giggles. We were just in the corner, like gathering two hours giggling. I we were supposed to mingle, and I did it. I don't think I'm mingled. I think I was just talking to you and Sarah because that was when you were in Chicago and I was like, I'm from Chicago and you were like, yeah, wait, a minute, wait do you? And that's how we really got into the giggles. And I was just like all I got. And there's a picture of us walking because there was a brunch piece and there was another piece where we had to take photos with Oprah and we had to use golf carts because we want the owning. So I have a pink Cardie God card po. I have that photo. It's me you, um Arianna and like two other people in the golf cart. So I have that tolfy and so good. That was so fun. That was so so fun. And then and then we got to speak together for the first time in Chicago for together to it when Glennan put that hook and we're talking about our other favorite working progress friend and just real life friend and share to my friend Glen Beyond and and she invited me to come and speak at the Chicago event and I was like, oh, Corseri here. So fun. Fact that tour, when um we were picking the people who were going to be on the tour, the moment your name came up, everybody was like yes, please, yes, yes, please make sure Sofia is on this. So you were like always high on the list as one of the people we wanted on that first together tour, Like the moment your name came up, everybody who was like, absolutely, please make your Sofia as part of this, This would be amazing. So just so you know, I love that. Thank you. It was really it was really cool, you know, to be able to to be in this incredible. I mean, god, we were in like a like what do you call that? A stadium and auditorium? I don't even We were in this ship the historic Chicago Theater. But it's that it was like I sold out thing. I guess I always think of theaters as feeling smaller. That felt like that felt to me like going and presenting at a at a thing like in the music world where you walk out on stage and I'm like, this is not my universe. I am not used to standing in front of as many people. I'm gonna vomit or like pass out or fall off the stage. I don't know how to do this and it and it was cool because I remember the feeling of walking out there and just thinking, wow, this is this is big. The space is physically big, and yet what we got to create on that stage felt so intimate. Yeah, and the conversations that we've been able to have year after year on those stages together have been so vulnerable and and raw and real, and it's been so special for us and for for the audiences who come. The feedback is so amazing that people need more of that honest and open communication with each other. They don't want to be afraid to say the thing that might make them look you know, quote unquote weak or scared or or maybe they don't have the answer. And it's cool then by giving that permission to ourselves to help other people give it to themselves. Agreed, It's it's pretty amazing. Like together, it was just such an incredible thing. Like I just remember that fall that was fall t seventeen. It was really special because I was on all tensities. I was in all tensities. And actually I have, um the I have the what's called the plugger, not the plugger? What do you call those thingis? Uh? The program? The program? I found the program the other day and it just brought me so much joy. And I think I took a picture and standing to Glenna like it was in my desk somewhere, and it was so cool because I'm doing a purge of my office, but I kept that. I was like, this is something that I'm going to keep because it was such a special moment. I remember taking the stage and sticking on top of sitting on the stage just for two and a half hours twice a week for seven weeks basically, and I always tried to take in how historic where we were was, Like, so the Chicago theater we did in Chicago won't I was also there for Shaka Kan concert, right, It's where it's where people come who are legends to perform in Chicago. And here we are and here we were on the stage, so that was extra special. My whole family was there, so it was really cool. It was really cool. I love that. Did do you think because for you being from Chicago and talking about how that's a that's a theater where you've seen people who for you were legendary. Can you imagine what your little girl self would think if you could could rewind and tell her she was going to be up there one day, Little Lovey would be like, your stop it. That's a lot like I honestly, I'm honestly blown away because so many of my experiences, including the Super Soul one hundred are so big and so epic that I didn't even have the nerve to dream them right, Like who would have I didn't have the permission to think to myself, one day, you're gonna step on the stage of the Chicago Theater and your name will be on the marquis Like that just feels so big that I don't even think I had the audacity to even have the dreams. So when it came true, I was like whoa. And related to the super Soul one hundred story, the thing is Apra Winfrey is you know, matron Saints of anybody who wants to make a change in this world. And then she's a Chicago woman and she's a Black girl, so she Oprah is like the beacon. Over the years, I've been in the room with Oprah no less than seven times, like where I've been in the same rooms as her, but I never introduced myself. I've never gone up to Oprah to say, Hey, my name is Levy. I'm a huge fan. The first time I ever was in the room with Oprah was in the fifth grade. It was right after we moved to the US. Somehow my fifth grade class was chosen to go to the Oprah Winfrey Show because they were gonna pick five of us to join her on stage at some point. So I was one of the ten kids who was chosen to go to Harpo Studios. So I go to Harpow Studios. I end up sitting in the in the green room and just watching the show. And afterwards they gave us a little tour of like the actual studio, and I remember walking past Oprah and she was speaking to somebody and I was like, oh my god, that's I didn't try to go up to introduce myself. College. I end up getting tickets to the Opra Winfrey Show. I come to talk with my friend. They put me in row two in the aisle. Oprah walks past me when she's coming when the show is starting. Year after, I get tickets again to her anniversary show. Like in the most random ways, I kept on being in Oprah space. But the last yeme that I went to she walked past me. She was like, oh, I like your jeans, and I was like thank you. Still did not try to introduce myself like hello, No, I was just like thank you. So when super So one hundred happened, it was actually a manifestation of dreams that I keep spoken because outside of college, I go to the Essence Black Women in Hollywood event every years, their invite only event where their honor amazing black women who are in the industry, and every year Opras there like but I remember one year, it was a year that my It was a year probably Oprah was sitting at a table with Abra DuVernay and Shan Durance at this event. So I said, I'm gonna walk up and introduce myself to one of them. Who will I do it? I chose Shonda. I was like, you know what, It's not my time to be Oprah yet. So I went up to Shanda, and Shinda knew who I was because she reads my scandal recap. So her and I had a moment. Shanda ends up, Shinda ends up blurbing my my book. She her quotas on the cover of my book. But when super So one hundred happened and I got on the list, I literally was like, holy sh it, I've actually predicted this because I found three tweets that I've written over the years that says one day I would meet Oprah and when I do, she would know my name wow. And when I finally met her, she knew my name because she chose me to be on Super So one hundred Wow. Yeah, I love that. I just love that so much. I used to as a kid because her show was always my favorite show. But as a little girl, like I didn't watch kid TV. I liked grown up TV. I watched Jeopardy and Were a Fortune and Seinfeld and my parents, I like Murphy Brown was like my favorite show. I was like, she's a journalist and she's single, and she's so cool, you know I. I my parents were like, our kid is weird. But the thing I was the most obsessed with was Oprah. And I used to beg my mom, beg if I get straight, as, will you pick me up fifteen minutes early from school every day so I can be home before Oprah starts all And my mom was like, no, you're a child, you go to school. I will pick you up at the end of the day. And so I would beg her and I'd say, please just come, please come five minutes before the ending bell. Be be the first mom in mine. So because I got gotta get I gotta get home mom. I can't miss I can't miss any more than the first eight minutes of Oprah and oh what is happening? And running the house and s down in front of the TV. And I wouldn't sit on the couch, I'd sit on the floor right in front of the TV and I just watch her, and I I just I loved I just loved her so much. And when I moved to Chicago, I moved three blocks from Harpo. She wasn't working there anymore, but it felt I was like, I just by osmosis, I must wear the energy of this woman, this world change truth telling person who is my idol um. And I, you know, I think about I think about what it was like to have her to look up to as a woman and then to hear your story, and what it was like to have her to look up to as a young black girl and a young black girl from Chicago, and and you know, I think about Oprah starting her show and like, there weren't women who looked like Oprah who had talk shows. That was not a thing. There were beery actors on TV who looked like Oprah, And just what a I know, what a revolution that was for me, And like I'm having this nostalgic friend moment for you, I'm like, oh my god, little love me most have just been so happy, little lovey right now would be like, I can't believe your life. What Because I also went to high school three black pot from Harpo Studios. I went to Whitney Young High School, which is where Yeah, so I would walk past Harpo Studios often just to be like, so Oprah's in there right now. Oh man, that is really cool. And so what Oprah represents, and I think for a lot of black girls is Oprah gave us permission to dream. Because Oprah's life represented all types of dreams come true. Like this woman from Mississippi who was abandoned by her parents becomes the first black woman billionaire. It's the true. It's the rags to richest story that you think is too good to be true, but it's true in her. So she's the proof to be like, Okay, so even though my dream might sound crazy, there's a tiny chance that it is possible for it to happen because it happened for her and to which is why that super so one things felt so unreal, which is why I thought somebody's tricking me. That didn't happen. Even when we showed up for the brunch and her staff was around, I literally walked up to them and I said, so, let me get this straight. Oprah actually knows who I am. And they were like yes, because Oprah literally was picking the people who was She picked every single person on this list yes, yes, no, no, no, yes, So I said, wow, she actually said yes to me. So then it culminates in the wildest thing. A year after Super Soul, in the middle of That's Together tour, Oprah does a Sunday brunch at her house. Yes, and I got an invitation yep. And I'm sitting on Oprah's lawn surrounded by the who's who of impactful people in the world, surrounded by people who I've read their books, who I've watched on TV. Who who I'm like, oh my god, you are goals. And I'm sitting in the same space as them. And I was just like, I want to like drink this in. I need to just I wanted to take it. Every single site. I remember speaking at a table with Angela Bassett and being like, what is my life? How am I sitting a food away from Angela Bassett? So Oprah towards the end. I actually didn't really say much to her because she was always founded by people. So Kirby, who is Gail's daughter, was like, have you said how to Oprah haveyberies? I was like, you know, I've been giving her time. Kirby was like, let's go over there right now, and I'm over here, like I don't find goal over anybody. I never even faind gold over her when I first met her, But I don't know what I was like. And Kirby was like, and oh, you know, have you seen Lovey? She was like, of course, she was like if that Lovey interviewed me last year, because I also end up interviewing her, and she rubbed my head um and I was just like, your home is beautiful, thank you so much for having us. She was like my pleasure, and I was just like, what is my life? I'm just internally screaming, internally screaming. But I have to make this point about Oprah. People think about her and think about this like larger than life woman. But one thing that I think has really been a part of her success and the reason why she keeps being win being somebody who wins is how kind she is. And I say this because we were basically the last people at the brunch because I was like, we're gonna stay. It was me, Bows cardoneled my husband. We were just like, we don't have to rush out of Oprah's property, so we just gonna take our time. We were having conversations with people. As we were walking out, we turned around and Oprah had gathered all the people who worked the event, the waiter is, the servants, staff, anybody who worked, and she had just standing in front of them and said, I just wanted to take this time to thank you for making this event what it was, from making it such a success. I see your work. I appreciate you. And I loved that. And I was like, this woman is stopping to be like I need to make sure y'all see like you know, I see you. That no work was too small that contributed to her day, and it was something that I was like, I gotta make sure that I never lose the person who thanks everybody, not just the big people, but the people who are work that is often thankless. Yes, it's such a reminder because there's this false narrative that when you get successful, you you turn into kind of a dick. Yeah, and Oprah is the pinnacle of success and the pinnacle of class. And I remember that day. I mean, my god, when I saw you, I was like, thank God because it's intimidating to be there. And to your point, you know, we're at her home. It's gospel brunch. It's like this magical morning, Common and Andrew Day are singing. I'm like where am I? What was happening? And I'm talking to Diane Sawyer Like for a kid who went to journalism school, I was like, helloagging my too. The two women I have looked up to most, Oprah and Diane Sawyer are just casually hanging. And I did the same thing I avoided Overra. I was like, no, everybody wants to talk to her. I'm just gonna keep my head down. And at one point we like kind of locked eyes and she went hello, and I was like hey. I literally went hey, like I'm gonna I'm just gonna leave you alone. And then I saw one of the lovely women from her team who we met at the first Super Soul one hundred things, and I was like, it's so nice that you guys invited the Super Soul one hundred, and she leaned in and she goes, not all one hundred of you got invited to this? And I was like, wait, for love, it wasn't just it wasn't just the whole hunting invided h and I in that moment when you said like, are you on the on our brunch day? Like, are you sure Oprah knows me? I remember that day being like when the when the hundred of us met, thinking, Okay, I'm sure Oprah picked a lot of these people, but I'm also sure, Mike, maybe the team picked some people. I had this thing in my head. I had this imposter syndrome thing where I was like, I don't think Oprah knows me. I don't think Oprah you know, sure, I've dedicated myself to being a real activist, but there's people who, like Oprah was friends with Nelson Mandela, Like what does she care about what I'm talking about on Instagram? You know? So it's like there's probably there's probably like some of the younger girls on her team who like loved One Tree Hill. I told myself this whole story about how everybody there had been picked by Oprah, but she probably didn't really know me. And and when when her team was like no, Oprah picked people who she believed to be doing meaningful work in the world. For this, in a way, I had to realize the way that I will so often support the work of others but detract from the quality of my own work in myself. And I was like, okay, And I remember thinking my my inner little like little Sophia who used to beg to go home early so she could catch the beginning of the Oprah Show, needed to know that she mattered, that she grew up to matter to her hero, and needed to know that she grew up to do something of merit that warranted her inclusion in a group who she looked up to. And and it's like I realized that the little the little me and me it has always been a little afraid or worried that she wasn't enough, has told big big me, present day me that maybe I'm not enough. And I thought, I gotta go back and start to undo that story. You know, Oprah talk to our stories, and so I'm curious, like when we talk about are are littles And I'm like, I love people who who are dedicated to the work and who go to therapy because they know how to talk about their inner children. But I wonder, like I always like to go back with people who come on the show who who was a little lovely? Like what was your life at eight years old? What? What was your experience being a little Nigerian girl growing up in Chicago? Like what what was it for you picturing not keep picturing little Sofia a little love There would have been such besties that would because like little legs could carry us absolutely, Little me was very much big me in that Little Me was also still audacious. She was pretty self assured. But broke a little bit of that. So we moved to the U S when I was nine. Little Loving had never been the only or the new girl ever in her life until that moment move me to Chicago at nine, I had never been in a room where everybody didn't look like me. I hadn't besides when we came on vacation to the US like a few years before. But in terms of like you now are going to exist in this plane, hadn't had to deal with that because the school that I went to in Nigeria was a private school that was owned by a family friend. Like the principle, who we call the headmistress, was like my mom's bestie. So my best friend since I was too, because we started going to school when we were two, was her niece. We ran the place in terms of, like, you know, this is what we do. We're really good students. I was a kid who I was either because I've been ranked since I was too. They ranked every student in each class from young age. I usually I'm usually one or two because like, even though I was friends with the headmistress, I'm also highly competitive, really bookish, nerd all day. I was a kid who would come home from school do homework before she even turns on the TV. Like you didn't even have to tell me have you done your homework because I already did it. Yeah, because I'm like, I'm gonna get these a's, um And So when we came to the US, it was the first time I was ever different. It was the first time my name was every different, first time my my voice sounded different right, first time my accent was weird because everybody sound like me. So but it was It's interesting how quick kids pick up feels different, Like nobody told me you're gonna have to switch up your game. I instantly knew. So I remember the first day of school. I get walked into class. The teacher tells me to introduce myself to the kids, and I had a two second debate with myself where I was like, Okay, you don't know any of these people. Yeah, your name which is Fila. My family calls me Fete, which is love means God's love. So instantly was like, yeah, your name is not gonna be good here, Um, okay, pick a name that they can pronounce. I literally was two seconds in my head. I was having whole whole debate, whole conversations. And the name that I introduced myself as was Lovette, which was a nickname that my aunt called me. So I was like, they can say that one. Okay, Yeah, my name is Lovette. Of course strong Nigerian accent, so it definitely didn't sound like this, Like it probably sound like, Hi, my name is Lovette. Probably sound just like that. So okay. I sat down. But I was like, and I brought to love Price to school. Uh, these kids have sandwiches. Yeah, that's not gonna be good. So at lunch, I try to sit as far away from people as possible, because I was like, when I opened my food, it's gonna smell different to them, then I gonna understand, sure enough, what are you eating? And I'm sitting up here like I don't want to answer this question, But as kids do, I end up being like, Okay, I can adapt. I can do something different. So I started listening to how they were talking, and I was like, I could talk like that. I could do that. And that's how I actually lost my accent by just listening to my classmates speaking and being like, Okay, I can talk like that. By high school, most of my accent was gone. But here's the thing that I would do before every first day of school from the time I got here too yeah, probably end of high school. I would show up to school early for the first day of school every year because I would go to each class and tell my teacher, Hey, the name that's on the roll call, don't call me that. Scratch it out, put this name because I got used. And the substance teachers will show up and they'll be like, ah, this name is hard to pronounce, and I'm like, I know, that's me. So having to basically be two people little love you with two people. At home, I'm still speaking yorba, I am uh still eating pound of yam. I am eating a goosey. And at school I had to assimilate to make sure, because you don't want to be different at nine, at ten, at eleven, twelve, nobody tells you being different is cool. So I did my best to not be that different. And you know, I got a bunch of friends. My friends were like, you're not at calls of Benetton. Like literally, my best friend and in the elementary school was Indian Shahina and we had like we're basically like the eyeland of Busty Toys. So we had the Indian girl, we had me. We had one girl whose red head, and you know how kids do with redheads. So it was like all the people who were different we found each other and we were like hey, and then we kid. I love that. Do you if we fast forward you you you say in your Ted talk that you choose to affect change by speaking up, and and you're talking about how you always wanted to collect and protect and give community to people who might have been, you know, considered outsiders. So do you do you draw a parallel between the two, do you realize that you were always speaking up and making change as a kid, or or was that a specific lesson that happened at some point in your your childhood or your young adult life. Yeah, I think I've always been the person who who just couldn't help but speak up, like I've always usually I've usually been the smallest person in the class. Okay small just I'm the baby of the family. I was also like just petite and still am. But even then I was even smaller. So I think I had a bit of a complex that was like, just because I'm small, don't mean you're about to play me, right. So, even when I was little, I would speak up for myself if I felt like something that was happening was not cool, like I did not like to feel cheated, and I could not shut up about it. I just could not shut up about a moment where I felt like somebody was being unfair to me. Like that's unfair was my favorite phrase, to the point where when I would get punished by my mom, I would take the punishment. Afterwards, I would either write her note or I'll walk up to her and I'll say, I don't think that was fair. I actually think you owe me an apology. I would ask my mother to apologize to me for punishing me for something that I did at five. And this is the story that my sister even tells me now that she's like, you were so annoying. You would actually walk up to her, asked this woman for an apology, and somehow get away with it. She might not have apologized to me, but she also didn't fight me because I was not asking for an apology. So I think in that way, I learned very quickly that like I am allowed to say what I feel, the person might not receive it, or they might not do what I asked them to do, which was the apologize, but at least I have the space to do it. So I think that kind of followed me in a real way. And I literally used to write her notes even after I would get in trouble, even if I wasn't asking for an apology, I would write her a note explaining my part, my part of what happened. I would write a card and I like folded up and I'll slide it to her when she's sleeping, and I'll just go to bed, and so she will wake up in the morning to a note for me explaining my part in the story and what was misunderstood. So, like, I've been this girl for a long time. I still have that. I have that thing where if I feel like something has been unfair or unjust, I can't sleep. It makes me crazy. I'll I'll spin on it. I mean for years, and and that's going for an activist because you don't let go of injustice in the world, but in my personal life, Like, I still can't believe he said that to me. And I'm like, this was five years ago. Who cares? Why did I even think that's not just now? If there's like a blip of blank space, I'm like, and you know what, still just burns my But I'm like, yeah, what, oh we are grudge it's really good. Well not no, so okay, So even from the age of five, you're like, excuse me. My opinion is, yeah, how how does that? How does that carry you through growing up? Because you you had the same thing that I did. And I wonder if this is being a kid who comes from a family of immigrants, or is it like that women are cultured, be nurture is and maybe it's boats But we both were like, well, obviously we're gonna be doctors. And part of me is like, well, there's the thing when your parents moved to America where it's like you can be a doctor or a lawyer or a lawyer or correct. But also there there's this sort of you know, sainthood of of of women who serve and heal, and so I think about that societal thing, and for me, I think it all kind of mixed up, and I was like, well, I'll be a doctor. Yeah, But what was it similar for you or or were you just like super into science? What was the motivation. My motivation was exactly what you just said. I was not super into science. I was not. No. No, I love writing, I loved English. I wasn't a science At no point did I ever enjoy my science classes. But I was like, I'm going to be a doctor because the immigrant thing that you're going to do three things, and then also I want to help the world and have and think and also have another people beat it into your head, you're totally smart. You're gonna be a doctor. You're gonna you're gonna be a doctor. Okay, yes, yes, I will be a doctor. Meanwhile, did not do well in science in general. Like, if I did well, it was because I tried, and yeah, no, I didn't enjoy it. So I didn't have that moment of clarity of girl, this is not your dream until I got that D in chemistry in college. My friendman year of college, and I was like, girl, you don't even like hospitals. Girl, just delete that dream is dead to the world. And that is what ended the dream. But yeah, no, I didn't want to be a doctor truly, when I think about it, it wasn't like I like woke up and thought I can't wait until in a hospital helping people. No. I was never that person. Mm hmmm, So how did you? How did you decide to make the switch? How do you How do you let go of the expectation and start pursuing what you as an individual really care about. I'm stubborn, okay, I'm I'm I am very much. I'm a Capricorn where the goats. We are definitely stubborn. So when I got the d in chemistry and I was like, so my major was psychology premed. I actually loved psychology. I fell in love with it when I was in high school. So I came in with psychology premed but I dropped the premed for the doctor dream, but I thought I could still do psychology because I was like, I still love it. Um, I really want to go to grad school and do industrial and organizational psychology, which it was really interesting to me, actually still kind of interesting to me. But I started blogging the same semester that I got that D and seventeen years later, here I am. But really, my blog we started as something that I was doing because I was pure person to doing it ended up taking on life of its own because once I graduated, I deleted my college blog and I started awesomely Lovely dot com and it started getting more attention because people are like, oh my gosh, you're saying but I wanted to say, but they're not too got awards. Got laid off my full time job in April as a marketing coordinator, and you know, to the stubburn thing. I should have been like, oh my god, the universe is trying to tell me you should focus on writing. No, I was like, I gotta get a new job. Okay, Well, in the meantime, I just keep doing this blogging thing. And then basically came a moment in twelve where I couldn't deny the fact that I was a writer, because I end up doing press coverage at the Academy Awards. I had credentials on the red carpet and backstage, which a lot of people don't get. And here I am like standing next to all these journalists from BBC and CNN, and here's awesomely loving just in the same room eating Wolfgang puncturing. And I literally was like, holy sh it, Like you You've made it in a room where people who are backed up by multimillion dollar outlets are in and you made it here because of your own personal words. The thing that you were doing that you thought was this hobby. You are a writer, this is your gift, this is your purpose. You're supposed to double down on it. And it was that moment that I finally stopped running from the from the word writer. I finally owned it and stop acteel like it was just this cute hobby that I had. It was like cute hobby. It was the thing I've been doing for nine years. Okay, Like yeah, so that is what that is how the plan and how this whole thing accidentally happened. Why do you think it because I'm sure there are people at home who are listening to this, We're like, yeah, I just I don't know. I don't know if I can call myself whatever it is that they do and that they love. Why do you think it can take so long for us to embrace our truth? Especially you know, as you're saying and it's like it was smacking you in the face and it's hard and it still felt scary. What do you what do you think that is? I think a lot of times we're looking for permission to be that person, or we're looking for an example of that person that we want to be, and then if we don't see an example, we'll be like act then I can't do it. Like I didn't see the version of the writer like me who's making a good living, like I know the writers like the Tony Morrison and Terry McMillan's. But all I all I was doing, in the way I put it, was writing my thoughts about the world. What's the big deal? Right? Because I didn't see the sample of the writer that felt and looked like me. But truly, I was really supposed to be the example for myself. I was supposed to be the example for other people. We're constantly looking for permission because we're like, if I haven't seen it in the exact way that I do it, then it's probably not possible. So sometimes you do have to become the example you were looking for, because now there's a black girl somewhere who can tell her parents I want to be a writer. Here's the example of somebody who's doing it in a way that makes sense for them. So now I am the example that I was looking for. And I think a lot of times our work comes into that too. Um sometimes you will be pushed into it, and oftentimes if it's not something that comes with the manual, that comes with some type of blueprint, we are afraid of it because we're like, but what if I lose my way because there's no map, What if I lose my weight? Well, you know what, you draw the map, so somebody else who comes behind you won't lose their weight because you created the map that you didn't have. So I think we just need to understand that part of the work that we do is to give ourselves a permission to be who we want to be, even if we have no example of it yet. Right, like, you can become the example, you can be the map drawer for somebody else and be able to be like wow, like I didn't design this, but I end up on this road. And if the road is leaving you the greater things that you could have ever thought of, that's a winning road mm hm hm. And I think when we think about that idea to I mean I have that conversation with Karma on his podcast last year about how you have to write your own permission slips because somebody else isn't going to do it for you, and I think it can be really hard, especially in pursuit of anything that's considered a creative career, because you go, well, what is my opinion? Like you talk about when you were blogging and you were like, it's just the thing. It isn't it's just my thing? What? What is? What is my little writing thing matter? We can wonder why our voice is valuable, but for me, what I always come back to is if your voice is rooted in telling the truth and rooted in kindness and rooted in honesty, you know, it's like I don't need any of those people like running those insane q and on blogs. I'm like, stop writing like you guys, writing you're you're gonna be the You're gonna be the downfall of America here, But when when when you are actually pursuing truth, justice, the illumination of people's experiences. When when when you're rooted in a purpose, I think you have to keep going, And I think the only way to do that is is to give yourself permission. I think, and as long as your permission comes with a willingness to be humble, you know, to admit, look, I don't know everything. This is the thing I'm learning or working out or working on or whatever. Then I think, you know, you can feel really proud of something, and I don't know. That's that's always kind of how I as a creative person, that's always how I kind of try to check it. And I think where we meet, you know, in in both of our differing creative outlets, is we meet an activism and and being an activist very similarly to being a creative requires that you give yourself permission to go all in, to learn, to to be willing to learn something new wouldn't change your opinion, um it seems to have forgotten as possible, and and to keep showing up. So I wonder you know when, because you know exactly when you gave yourself permission to be a writer. When do you think you gave yourself permission to be an activist? Do? Man? I don't know. That one was tough. I feel like, oh man, I feel like I've lived like eight years. I we forget half the things that I've done. But I realized. So I actually ran a nonprofit organization for nine years called the Red Pump Project, and it was to raise awareness about HIV and AIDS and how it affects women and girls of color um and we use red shoes to grab people's attention. So I came up with that one. Again. It's almost like my life has been split into all these different pieces that run parallel to each other where I'm learning everything at the same time. And then I looked back and I go, oh, okay, that's what that experience was to teach me. So I started Red Pump off it. Starting college, really, I did a I was a counseling center pair professional, and one semester I was told to do a self directed project, do whatever you want that's gonna be good on this campus. So I decided to do a um A presentation on HIV and a's and how it's affecting women, how it's affecting sub Saharan Africa, and how it's affecting the United States. UM and I end up finding out that HIV and a's was still really bad. I hadn't heard about any of the stats since like the Magic conversations, right, So I just was like, whoa forty million people have died? Have we not talked about this? More So, I actually did this presentation and end up meeting somebody who had lost she she lost a bunch of aunts and uncles too, um AIDS related complications to where twenty of her cousins were orphaned because of it in Malawi, and I was like, oh my god. She was like yes. So I was like, this is really terrible. I'm but I couldn't it couldn't. I couldn't shake it. So a few years later, after college, I was just having a conversation with one of my friends because she just found out one of her friends was HIV positive. Who's our age? And I was like, why do we know? Not talk about this anymore? So we decided to do a campaign called Rock the Red Pump, where on March tenth, which is women and Girls hiving a awareness day. We were gonna ask bloggers to talk about this issue on all their websites. We were like, just so people can know this is still a thing. Ended up asking ten bloggers, fifty ended up doing it a week later. You know what's funny, how I share the mic now came together in eight days. This Rock the Red Pump campaign also came together in eight days. Were in eight days we made the logo and on March ten it was two thousand and eleven. On March tenth, two thousand and nine, two thousand nine, My gosh, we had fifty blogs right about this one issue and talk about how it's affecting people. How every At that point, it was every thirty five minutes a woman test positive for HIV in the US. Imagine that, Like, what now it's every forty seven minutes. So I guess we've made some progress. But that's where I'm really my activism started. Now I ran this organization. It ended up becoming a um a national organization. We had ambassadors in five different cities. We worked with the U. S Department of Health. We actually end up going to Haiti for a week long workshop that we gave two communities in Porto prints funded by the U. S. Department of Health. So close the doors because I was like, Okay, the work doesn't does not mean the work is done, but I was like, this part of the work that I'm doing, I have to put it to rest because there's more other work that I need to be doing. So I feel like two thousand nine started my activism. I love the work that you're referencing and highlighting that it requires ongoing attention is so important. A former Work in Progress guest, Dr Celeste Watkins has quite literally has studied and and and runs conversations on these topics. And she wrote this incredible book about health outcomes around HIV and AIDS as they affect Black women and what is capable with with people lead activist groups that create support systems that our government and our health care systems are lacking. And it's amazing. So anybody who missed that episode who cares about this issue, please go and listen to it and and we'll we'll bring we'll bring Celeste into our into our little crew because she's really incredible. Yeah, there are people doing so much amazing work and sometimes certain titles might feel too big for you, right, like there's you know, it's like it's like the people who may being afraid to call myself a writer, somebody who's out there afraid to call themselves a photographer, somebody's out there afraid to call themselves, you know, whatever the title is, activists, because sometimes titles feel bigger than you. Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of times we also attach a lot of power to these titles that makes it hard for us to wear it feel like we're wearing somebody else's coat. Mm hmmm. And it's almost like, okay, you know what if you don't want to call yourself that, all right, but are you doing the work? That's really what matters. Does there are some people who would throw on a title who have not done the work right. So oftentimes it's the people who are actually doing the work who are afraid to call themselves whatever it is. So even if you're not calling yourself whatever that title is, give yourself permission to do the work. Take the work seriously because part of the way that we do imposter syndrome is that we we'll be doing the work and still think we're not worthy of the title, the good things, the access, the opportunities, all of that. You know what, I have a firm believe that if you're like I can't believe I've made it in here when you're in the room, do less of the questioning and do more of the well, now that I am here, what can I make sure I do? That's gonna make sure I walk out better than I was when I came in. Who was the person I need to say hi to? What is the conversation I need to have? So while you're in the room, don't spend the whole time in the corner just being like, I can't believe I'm here. You have that momentary freak out to yourself, sure, but don't let the freak out be the thing that now allows you to walk out through and be like I can't be by and talk to anybody, Because that is how you waste an opportunity. That's how you waste what could be your blessing. That's how you miss out on who could be your helper. Oh my God, love me. I just need you just sit on my shoulder at all times because I do like I I get, I get nervous and weird, and I spend a lot of time in corners. But I I love that because what you're talking about is actually being proactive to get over and I mean literally like jump the hurdle, get over your fear and do something else. And I wonder, why do you think fear is so powerful? How do you identify it and then start figuring out how you were going to stop letting it control you when you were feeling it. I love that you just asked me this question because that is actually what my second book is about. I just finished it two months ago. It's actually being edited right now, pre orders to be available soon. The reason why I wanted to write my book, which is called The Fear Fighter Manual, is because I realized how many times in my life I have let fear stop me from doing something, saying something, being something right like fear oftentimes has us. It's the thing that has us questioning this title, whether it's ours to air right as a coat. And I think the times when not actively remember being afraid and being like I acknowledge it, I feel it, I know it's here and I still made the decision to move forward are the times that amazing things happened for me. The times when I said something that felt bigger than me, the times I did something that felt difficult. And I think it's a universal problem. We all are afraid, even those of us who are considered bold and I'm a professional troublemaker, but even we're afraid because here's what happens. As our lives change, the things we fear change. We don't ever stop being afraid or fearless, because I consider being fearless being afraid, but they're considering and doing it anyway. That is what fearless is. Does not mean I'm without fear. It means I am not letting fear let me do less. So what I want people to understand is what I want to a little loving from ten years ago who was afraid to call herself a writer? Is that why not you? Have you not been putting in the work. Yes you're afraid of it. Yes you're not sure all the things that might come with writer. No you're not sure how you're gonna make exact money. But the thing that's that's compelled you so much, the thing that you wake up thinking about being afraid of it, but still own it because you're not doing yourself any favor by not owning it. So it just comes with acknowledge it that you feel the fear, even if you're telling to yourself, even if you're writing it down, yes I am afraid, and then being like, okay, now that I acknowledge that, got that out the way, I just gotta do it anyway. It's like jumping into a putter feet first. You can dip in a toe. It's not gonna make it more comfortable when you jump in. You might as well just jump all the way in. But if you notice your body adapts very quickly, you spend more time being afraid of the coal to water then the time it actually takes for your body to be like, oh this is not bad. So just given fear perspective and just making sure that the fear cannot stop you. So choosing to write The Fear Fighter Manual as your second book. How I'm curious about the order because of your first book, which you know I love so much. I'm judging you. But Do Better Manual? Why how did you figure out the order of these things? Was it? Was it really important to get people thinking and focusing on doing better before teaching them to be less afraid to go do things because obviously we want people to do good things, better things. Well, I write organically, so I'm judging you to do better. Manual was written first because that was the book that I wanted to write at that point. I didn't get the idea, the concept of the fear of Fight of Manuel until two years ago, until I was like, uh, like, I started understanding that the pattern of my life is that I have continuously done really scary things, and every time I've done something that scared me shitless, something amazing has happened because of it, And then I always reflect back on so what if I didn't do it? So I My TED talk, for example, is a really great example of that, because I turned that down twice. It was I did my TED talk in the middle of the Together tour. I did not think I was prepared. I turned TED down twice and said no, no, I'm too busy. I don't have time to write a new talk. Uh. I end up doing this talk, which I wrote in an uber on the way to the airport two weeks before Ted women thinking they will be like, you know what, we're good, never mind, we even sorry, we asked you and they say yes, and everything about that Ted Talk. Everything that led to the Ted Talk was proof of doing scary things and me trying to get out of it each time. But they'm not giving me permission, which I'm thankful for because Pat Mitchell asked me first, like one of the one of the first speakers that was requested for Ted women was me that year. I said no. I was like, well, I'm doing it together tour. I'm definitely not gonna have time because I know Ted ask people to be like focused on Ted. They get you a speaking coach, they get you, they make you rehearse multiple times. They will make sure they edit your talk down to the word because they want to make sure what's on that stage is like good. And I was like, oh, I really don't have time for this because I have a tendency tour. I have two others speaking engagements all in two months. So I said no. A couple of months later, they came back and said, you know what, we're happening together panel at Ted. Just come speak on that, and I was like I can't. I've already booked another speaking engagement same day. Two weeks before Ted, I found out my other speaking engagement at didn't have to be there to the day after. So I was like, oh, you know what, I just come on there and cheer all my together life sisters, Pat Mitchell, here's that. And she goes, oh, well, if you can come for that panel, why don't you speak? And I was like, Pat, I can't do that because I gotta be out of New Orleans by a PM to get to New York. She goes, we'll just have you opened up Ted women. Oh like what she was like, you would be She was like, you would make it to your flight. We'll just have to be the opening speaker. And I tried to say no. I was like, ah, you know what, I'm gonna send them a speech that right in the uber that they don't think it's crap and just be like, you're right loving we can't make it. I sent them the speech I landed and whatever city I was in, and Pat was like, we love it. It's great. Well, can't you just be here to, you know, rehearse the day before. I was like, Oh, this is gonna be the part where they say I can't make it because I'm like Champagne problem. I gotta get an award in Chicago the day before Ted, So I actually only can be there the day of and they go, would you do a rtual rehearsal for you? Every single excuse that I had they were not hearing it. And finally one of my friends I called her and was like, I literally want to send this email to Pat Mitchell to just be like, you know, I take this very seriously. I don't want to take this opportunity for granted. Can I just do it the next one? So when I called my friend to be like, yes, I want to send her this email because everybody else has had a coach. Everybody else has been rehearsing their talk for the last four months, and I'm afraid I'm gonna get up there and bomb. She goes, but you're not everybody. Oh. I was like damn. She was like all the speaking you've been doing has been your coach. So you got this. You're just afraid, get off my phone and go write this talk. And I got on the TED stage after scrapping my talk the day before at two am, having given the talk anywhere before, have not memorized it. I sat on my on the plane repeating lines to myself. Got to New Orleans. I did one rehearsal on the stage with my iPad where I read my talk to them because I still didn't have it memorized, and they were like, oh my god, it's great. You're like, can I get a teleprompter? Right? I was like, oh god, I don't have this memorize. And then the talk six o'clock happens and they called me up on stage. My mic falls off first and foremost. Oh my god. So then the guy has to come on stage and fix my money, and then I do the talk and Sophia, I did this talk as if I had done it fifteen times already. I didn't stumble over words the Ted talk that everybody sees right now as the Ted talk I gave. There were no edits, there were no um, what was I gonna say? None of that. It was like an out of body experience, and it proved, and I stepped off the stage. I said thank you, ran off the stage. So I was like, I got this flight to cash at eight o'clock and it's six thirty and the stage manager stops me and says, I need you to see the standard ovation that you're getting and pushes me back on stage. And everybody's on their feet, and I remember just being like whoa, and I say thank you, and I go off the stage, run into the car that already has my luggage in it. That Ted Talk changed my life. Yeah, that Ted Talk. I get a note about it every single day from somebody in the world that's like, I read this talk. It changed my life. It made me do this thing that was bold. That Ted Talk is the reason why I get I still get speaking engagement requests twice a week at least because somebody saw the Ted Talk and said, come speak at our company. So one day I literally stopped and said, Imagine if I did not do this Ted Talk because I was afraid of it. Imagine if I did not do this thing that transformed my career because I was afraid. Imagine if I said no and they let me say no to them because I was afraid. So how many times have we bypassed the thing that can change our lives for the greater good because we're afraid? How many times have we said no to yes things because we're afraid. We operate like this as a default. But what happens when we start saying, you know what, I'm gonna start recognizing it and I'm not going to let fear be the reason why I miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime. I'm not gonna let fear be the reason why I missed out on the love of my life. I'm not gonna let fear be the reason why I don't have this conversation with my best friend that could transform her life. Right. So it's knowing that every day we're making choices based on fear that are affecting our outcomes. So we cannot operate from that space. It is literally stifling and suffocating us, and we have to not do it. So but two, I was like, boo, two has to be about this. It has to be because I want me from ten years ago to even have this to read. There's a girl somewhere who was just like me from ten years ago who needs to hear this because when she wants to go ask her bass for a raise, or when she wants to ask out the man she has a crush on, or the girl she has a crush on, what is the thing that's gonna tell her? Listen, I know it's scary, do this ship. Do not ask out of the best case scenario because you're afraid of the worst case scenario, don't do it. And I think that that relates. But that's such a powerful lesson for us in our lives, for claiming our success, for claiming who we are, for claiming our dreams. And I also think it's a really important lesson for claiming community, for standing up for each other. Like again, it comes back to this ability to advocate, to be an activist. And and you know, you've said time and time again that too few people are willing to be that first domino and take the fall. And it's the same kind of thing, right like you're letting the fear get in the way when you know there's an injustice, when you know someone deserves better treatment, and you're so afraid to put yourself out there. Yep. But we're we're seeing we're in this moment right now. We've seen over and over again, especially lately, that that when one person does speak up, when one person does decide to record this thing on video, so many other people follow and and and I'm curious, you know, what, what are some of the experiences that you can look at in your own life where you go yep, that's where I was in the domino. Mm hmmm. I mean there is the time when I actually had to when I was asked to speak at this uh European tech conference that brings in fifteen million euros. Huh, And it makes me so mad, so bad. Literally emailed me to ask me to speak, and you know, my manager hits them up and says, you know, here's her feet and travel, and they apply back that they don't pay speakers, that the exposure that I would get on that stage is a lot, so I need to pay my own way there. And I remember asking my friends who were in the list and being like, hey, have you ever spoken here? Did they actually make you pay? And I quickly found out that white men who were asked to speak there, we're paid or they'll buy their books, they'll pay their travel. White women they paid their travel. Black women who have to speak were asked to speak. So it's a little White men got a fee and travel, White women got travel, no fee and use a Black women were offered no travel and no feed. Patriarchy at work. It makes me, it was and the wild cal was instantly was like, this is trash and I want to speak up about it, but I know I might face the national loss because if other you know other companies are like, I love you the troublemaker. We shouldn't have her. I could lose out on a lot of my business model because I any percent of my company right now, the revenue that we bring in is from speaking. So my ages were like, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, here's the moment where I'm being asked to be who I say I am. Here is the moment where I have to show and know what my own power is. Am I expecting the person who just started speaking yesterday to be the one to challenge a system like this, and I expecting somebody who's never been paid for a speaking gig when I'm getting my fee, my five figure fee, I'm on all types of stages that are like rarefied air. I do have some power in this. Even though I am a black woman. I can absolutely face loss. But I have to exercise the power that I have in this moment as a professional speaker who's respecting. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna speak on it. So I went on Twitter and I was like, you know, I'm being asked speaking this conference and me while they just don't want to pay me and all these people started talking, Oh my gosh, me too, something like that has happened to me. Oh my god. The same conference asked me to come speak. They didn't want to pay me either, and it started really amazing conversation about paying equality. Now, a Forbes writer sees it and says, hey, would you like to go on record because I want to write a piece about this in Forbes? And I was like all right, And they end up getting Gary Vynerchuck to go on record too. They end up getting so the guy who runs a conference, who was this Eastern European dude bro read the piece, got in his feelings about it, emailed me and the Forbes writer and said like, well, maybe if this was a more urban demographic love you could command her feet. It was like such racist dog whistle. It was so bad, so because of his ego makes my blood boil. It was so bad. But the good part is it actually doubled down and and proved my point. So the Forbes writer added his email to the piece, and it's like put the conference up in the light. That was not good. A few people actually pulled out of speaking. Some people would pull it out and deleted the registration But it was in that moment that I had to be the domino because I'm just like, if I don't speak up about this, because oftentimes people expect our silence to be what protects them. Yes, what will the fire fear? Correct our fear of punishment, which is valid, right, But I that's why I have to understand, like, will I be homeless if I speak up about this? If I lost all my speaking engagements? Would I Would I be homeless? No? Because let's say I end up going through all my savings. I have a few couches I can crash on, I'll be all right. And I don't have kids, so it's not like there's a child that's depending on my next speaking engagement to live. So I have the power to make that decision and take that risk. I think oftentimes people I don't want to take the risk because they're not acknowledging the power they do have. We're thinking this amen is gonna come, but not thinking like, what is the power that I have is actually gonna mitigate that risk? Yes, me, as a professional speaker who had been at it for ten years, that's the power that I had. Um what worked against me was me being a black woman. But what worked for me was the fact that I had great relationships, I had great access, I had great opportunities. So all of those let me know I can take this risk. If I suffer some losses, it won't end my life. Okay, So this is a this is a really important place I want to get to because what you're talking about is realizing what you're up against and also spending your privilege, the access of relationships, the financial security, those were your privileges in this moment, and you realize that, as you said, that you could speak up in a way that another black woman in your position with this conference, for example, wouldn't be able to. And that's the thing I really want to touch on because right now, okay, we're recording this at the end of July, and and and over the past couple of months this summer, we have seen the world's largest civil rights demonstration in history. We have seen a massive, long overdue, but massive calling out of racism. People are standing up for justice. We see white suburban moms in Portland taking the front line, getting assaulted by the police and pepper spray to defend peaceful protesters behind them. We we are really seeing people step up, and yet a pole just came out showing how voters are breaking down and who they're who they're voting for, and there is still a swath, a very large swath of white men who are like doubling down on Trump, which I'm just like, I don't understand how this is possible, but okay, But what really confounds me is the white women and I. One of the things I love about our friendship and our activism is that we can show up and teach together. And I want us to have this teaching moment because I need for the white women who are listening to this to not feel like when we talk about whiteness, you are personally being attacked. Lovey and I are having this conversation. I'm the white woman on this call. I don't feel attacked. I don't feel vulnerable. I feel amused by my friend who is hilarious. I feel very loved, I feel very safe, And I think it's really important to understand why. I have a theory. I think that the the reason that white women can get very sensitive about these conversations is because of the oppression we've experienced. So let's use the conference as an example. White men were getting a fee and travel. Women were only getting travel. Black women weren't getting a fee or travel, and white ladies. This is what we have to pay attention to. Yes, we know what it's like to be diminished because we are women. We know how frustrating it is. By the way, Levy, I quote you all the time. When conferences asked me to come and speak for free, and I know how much money they're making, I'm like, no, Clearly, you inviting me means I'm already exposed. That's a brilliant with my friend. I don't need your exposure you. Yes, I'm like you, big corporate conference need to pay me a speaker's fee so I can afford to fly myself and put myself up at the Women's march on my own time, so I can share for free as an activist. And it is That's my argument. But I think this is really important because sometimes I think that the oppression that women who look like me have faced at the hands of the patriarchy. When we begin talking about the intersectional impression of women of color, women who look like me, go, but I I've suffered, and I'm sad. And then we get into white tears, which are so dangerous because often white women have been cultured to like, suck it up, be tough, don't cry in front of the boss, and the boss is usually a man. So when black women or women of color in the workplace express that white women are exercising, whether it's conscious or unconscious whiteness over them, white women then burst into white tears in front of black women or Latino women. And then it's those women of color who get penalized by the white guy in charge, who is who we should all be frustrated with. So I think it's really important for us to examine this and I and I really want us to be able to dive into this. I wanna. I want to talk about that post you wrote two years ago that went very viral about these how weary black weaponizing. Okay, so let's let's dig into that a little bit. So to your point, the weaponizing of white women tears. So, here's the thing is, white women are pressed because of the womanhood yea. And because of that, white women tend to take the damsel in distress angle into conflict resolution and over history. Before we move on this idea of a damsel in distress, because this also I'm like, yeah, we were all raised on Disney movies. Hello, We've been told that it's our only way to be valuable is if we're sad and wounded. And I don't think we realize how damaging those stories are into our adulthood. So can we unpack that a little bit before we see how out so damsel in distress? I wouldn give you the best example, Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Goldilocks is this little blonde girl who goes into this house owned by these three brown bears and ends up eating all their food in the process, breaks their chair, breaks their bed, ends up napping in the bed, and really, at the end of the Goldilocks she ends up running away crying because she's afraid of the three bears, which is wild. You come into their house, eat their food, sit on their furniture, and break their property, and you end up crying at the end because you are afraid of their anger. It is the perfect capture of what the damsel in distress syndrome looks like, where often times you cause something and you now yell being attacked. So how Disney does it? All the princesses too, right, it's always damned undistress of like somebody having to save this person. And historically speaking, it's also valid because even though a lot of society's ills and a lot of injustices were perpetuated by white men, they were enabled by white women. So even during slavery, like as white men are raping the enslaved women, white women knew about it and oftentimes will weaponize it right and be like, oh my gosh. And sometimes white women would get enslaved man in trouble because they'll say he looked at me. Funny, he ends up getting killed or lynch because of it. We think about Emmett Till and Matt Till was like what twelve and he ends up getting lynched and brutally murdered because a white woman told people that he looked at her. Funny. This white woman, who, by the way, it's still alive and has admitted that she lied and has spaced no penalties, no repercussions, no consequences. This white woman, decades after the fact, can say I lied, and this boy lost his life. A family lost the son, somebody lost a friend, somebody lost the nephew. That is what we talked about when we talk about the weaponizing of white women tears. Oftentimes it's used in meetings, it's used in offices. People have so many stories. Um, my last episode on my podcast ran to Randomness, is me talking about this. People have so many stories that they sent me oft times when they've got in trouble because a white woman cried and literally said, this person attacked me, had no proof to show otherwise, and people took their words as bond and the other person gets punished. So one of the one of the stories before we move on, Sorry, but one of the stories that was so impactful for me was hearing about a professor who had who had this experience, a black woman professor who's who had a white student complain about her and say, you know, her tone is so aggressive, she's not nice to me. That this professor now will not meet with white students without a witness. Yes, who is not a style without someone to back up her own account of the exchange. And it is incredibly important for people who were like that saying the saying this is why I can't believe it. Stop saying you can't believe it because it is historic, you know, to your point, Levy, when we again, ladies, when we think about the way the patriarchy exercises itself over us. When you talk about the era of slavery and how there were white men who raped enslaved women, and and the white women who were married to these men didn't get mad that their husbands were rapists. They got jealous that their husbands were attracted to other women. That is the patriarchy at work, hitting us against each other. They did it to us in the suffrage movement also, rather than demand votes for all Americans, they were able to split us and they got white suffragettes to turn on black people. And it is the main tool of the oppressor class is to look at those they oppress and and think, how can we get them to fight with each other? And if I petuates ugliness, it does. The patriarchy is a big thing. But I think racism is also incredibly powerful as outside of um. I think to your to your original point of how white women are still voting for Trump, a lot of them are voting for Trump because their husbands are, not necessarily because they like Trump. A lot of people are literally voting for Trump because their husbands are. And what it comes down to when we talk about privilege and power is whiteness is one of the biggest pieces of power, even beyond the patriarchy at all, white women are still more protective than black men, right like, so that whiteness is the ultimate and privilege. And still people can really interrogate what roles they played because we white men are the ones that are known as the cartoon villains of the world. Science Steel Delivered admitted. But I also think white women have been able to get away from culpability for such a long time because of the damnslow in distress. Right, So, being the person who throws a rock and hides her hands, that's what the damsel in distress now does. It is a covering because people are now like, oh my god, no, no, don't hurt her feelings because she might cry, because even white men will sometimes bend to the will of white women because of the damsel in distress. And a lot of us now have to operate with this in the real world and offices in our everyday lives and try to maneuver to make sure we're not being too aggressive to hurt the damsel. Right. Well, and this is what I need the women listening to understand. If if you're a white woman and you can understand the the way the patriarchy flexes, and you're and and like, if you're understanding it, you might be sitting at home nodding right now. I know that it can be harder when you are beginning your work as an activist, when you are beginning to um have anti racist work illuminated for you. If if you're newer to that pathway, welcome, Please don't leave. It is long, but it is full of reward and the best people you'll ever meet. But I need you if you are willing to admit what the patriarchy looks like, to then admit that the patriarchy is so intertwined with racism. It's like basket weaving. They're all in meshed, and so for for women who look like me, who are listening to Lovey and I have this conversation. If you want to unpack the patriarchy, you can't do it without unpacking racism. And you have to understand how even if you don't believe you are racist, if you don't believe you have racist behavior, racism is a system. It's like the air around us. There's no way it hasn't gotten into our lungs, and we have to see that. And if we because we can't cry in front of the men at work, cry when a woman, you know, gives us a very va only the critique, we are literally weaponizing whiteness against that. And it's not okay. It's not okay, and it and it happens. It is such a detriment. We can't use the one sad tool that the men left us with to you know, win them over and make them apologize to us. We can't use that against each other as women. We cannot do it. It is it is so, it is so incredibly dangerous. And you you quoted something in your in this piece. You know, you wrote this article on the weaponizing of white women tears, and you linked because I went through and I was mentioning. I read all of those responses and they're heartbreaking, and we're gonna link to that and stories for this episode. You quoted this woman, Shay Stewart Wooly, who moves from Chicago to Maine. Her blog is amazing, and she wrote something I'd like to read because I think it, I think it clarifies a lot of this. She said, to cry as human, but Not all tears matter, and they particularly shouldn't matter when they come at the expense of someone else. Rarely do the tears of a non white woman carry any value. Instead, society conditions us not to cry. And with tears not having equal value, you create this archetype which we see referenced, y'all. You create a quote strong black woman. The damsel in distress is never black. We are expected to always be strong, and she obviously saying we as referencing black women. I know that might be confusing because I'm reading it, but you were expected to always be strong and yet also expected to never show anger or disappointment, to always turn the other cheek and be the calmest person in the room. White women tears are multi purpose. They derail conversation, they emotionally bully others, particularly people of color, and they are almost never questioned, which only adds to the power of a white woman and her tears. Yeah, yep, yes, all of that. Yeah, all of that. And when I when I reread your article, which I've read before, and when I read Shea's words and I really sit with them, it reinforces the absolute truth. But there is such a serious amount of cognitive dissonance happening with white women. You know, we have this thing where we're like, oh, the girls are on the same team, and and we ignore because we're thinking about it in terms of gender. We ignore the very real line that racial oppression and racism has drawn in the sand for black women throughout history. So if a black woman doesn't automatically view you as a white woman as like one of the girls, understand that. That's because white supremacy is very real, very toxic, very in cities. And that's so many white women who would say on all their socials right now, I am not a racist, behave in very racist ways and weaponize racism. And a lot of women have personal stories like this. That's the thing. Even beyond the history history, you know, historic accuracy, So many black women have stories of a time when a white woman has gotten them in trouble at school, at work, where they've been blindsided by something that's you know, and been like wow, Like, I find it really hard to be a part of this larger sisterhood when there's so many opportunities in my life I've seen where a white woman has weaponized haw whiteness. So it is to your point, it is the work that needs to be done, and it's really important work because none of us are free on so we are all free. So as we are talking about the patriarchy, white women can't be free until racism is also handled because they're also intertwined. So even if it's on a selfish level, understanding that it is in your own best interests to be anti racist because once because all of these injustices are webs together, it's not like we're gonna solve one and then there are other ones are good because there's also homophobia, there's transphobia. There's also woven in a whole lot of patriarchy and racism, there's able is um. So we all just outside of our own groups that we exist and have to understand that somebody else's fire is our business, somebody else's unfair injustice, like laid life is our business because we are so comfortable being like, well, that's not me, that has nothing to do with me. But the person who gets killed because of their race makes it harder for you to also exist because you can get killed because of your gender. You can get killed because your gender orientation. You like, it is so much that we have to understand is interwoven. All of our battles are locked together, so we all have to fight for each other. So until white women really understand on a visceral level, we won't get a lot of progress in the way we shoot. And how does this Because I think there's probably people who were saying absolutely yes, and I'm ready for the work, and I want to show up. And I think some folks who are listening are well on their way, you know, going through the resources we've all been sharing for so long, and and and for folks who are newer to the conversation, we're wondering where to start. That's where I think something like our project like Share the Mic Now was so incredibly impactful because what it did is it it opened perspective. And so many girls, so many girls who look like me sent me messages saying I didn't realize how white my feeds were. And thanks to this project, I met all these other women and I'm learning all these other of things, and I realized, you know, I can believe in these causes, but if I don't follow people who are a part of them, if I don't follow people who are affected by this, I'm missing information. And I was like, go, ladies, yes, yes, yeah, to your point of where people start. That's why she left people with to be the Domino truth Telling Guy, which, by the way, four thousand of your audience downloaded. So I create a guide called be the Domino, a Guide to truth Telling because a lot of times people are like, Okay, so how do I do this hard thing? How do I show up in this way that makes sense? How do I make sure that I'm being the person who is in the room using her power and privilege even when it's really difficult. So I created a guide. You go to be the Domino dot com download that because I think what we need to be viscerally accepting is that we have power that we can use every single day, and that power is our voice. It's to make sure we are pushing people to be better than they were because we're in the room, just to make sure that we're saying, hey, this thing happened, it wasn't okay, it wasn't done as thoughtfully as possible. I think we should do it different. It's making sure we're using our power. You know, for the moment, we do have more power than somebody else in the room, and saying, hmmmm, here's how we need to make sure that the person who doesn't have as much power as me gets a voice. So yeah, download the guide and really start doubling down on being a truth teller. Start being the person who is challenging things that are happening around them that are not okay, because you know that you want somebody to also speak up for you if you end up become the victim of something. I don't want to be quiet because I know if something happened with me, I would want somebody else to speak up for me. But am I speaking up with somebody? Or am I just waiting? So we have to be the people who are willing to tell the truth. So if it ever requires us to be the person who needs somebody's up on our behalf, we won't be like everybody's quiet. Well, if I've been talking about you and making sure I'm speaking up for you, speak up for me. Mm hmmmmmm. I'm so glad that so many I mean, I love that I always talk about on this podcast we give people homework, and I'm like, and I love that the people who listen to this actually do it. So I love that people downloading download be the Domino guid what what other things did you see from Share the Mic? Now? I'm curious because obviously you helped to organize the whole thing, and for I don't know if there's anybody who's listening to this who somehow missed it. My O mind? Do we have so much content for you? But can you just in case somebody didn't see it, maybe maybe people have been taking breaks from their phones during this pandemic. Um, can you can you walk the audience through what what we did so Share the Mic now me and bows the thing. John came up with this idea. We partnered with Glennon Doyle and say see bend it because we wanted to have prominent white women who have big accounts, um yeah, give over their accounts for a day and allowed black women with great voices to take it over to really get those their messages amplified. So on June tenth, fifty four white women, black women. It was a Instagram takeover. So the black women took over these accounts and we told our stories, We talked about whatever issues were in our minds. We just really kind of shared who we are. We had It was incredible, Um, the amount of amazing feedback we've gotten has been mind blowing. It's it's just done a lot. It's no one thing we really learned that has been significant. Why we haven't done around two and we're still thinking through things and realizing what the deeper work needs to be is that white women who are still not you too, Black women's voices, who are still not used to Black women's stories still weaponize it even in the midst of something powerful like that, and understanding that platforms don't protect black women. One of the things that people don't understand is that to be a black creator and to be a black a prominent Black woman online is to face a lot of abuse. We just in terms of how people respond to our messages, there's been there's been um little experiments done where people have switched their um avatars on Twitter and how different your avatar tells people how to respond to you. So black women have sometimes been like, for the day, I'm gonna put a white person's avatar on, and the amount of abuse that they've gotten tweeting the exact same way that they typically would went all the way down. So what you're the mic now on Earth? For us? Because one of are the people who share the mic now? Yabba, somebody who found found her through the platform actually ended up reporting her posting one of her post Instagram, and Instagram took her post down just because this white woman reported Yabba's post, it got taken down. There's a great video that she did with Toronto Burke and Abby and glennon Um that really talks about this. But we really understood that the platforms have work to do. Everything that we talked about is systemic individual levels. We can absolutely do things like share the mic now, but what happens when the platform itself still has policies and algorithms that are racist. To the point that me you talked about on our first uh Instagram Live is we also have to work on systemic changes that have to happen. We have to now be like social media. Hey, Instagram, how are you figuring out what platforms to take down? What content lead? How are you figuring out what content is dangerous? Because it seems that across the board, the people who were being silenced and centered the most are black creator. Did you hear that episode of The Daily a couple of weeks ago? The Daily is the New York Times podcast that comes out every morning Monday, and they did one about Facebook and Instagram, and they they went in and they analyzed the data and they actually showed that despite conservatives and Trump constantly saying that Facebook and Instagram are you know, censoring conservative content, that they have like between an eighty and a nine advantage because because for whatever reason, the the conservative vitriol and tendency to report more liberal content, more anti racist content is so much higher, Like we don't bother reporting their ship, but they're coming after us all the time and the time all the time. And I thought that that was so interesting and and it interests me also to hear across those fifty four traded platforms who had um better experiences and who didn't, because you have to think about who's in your audience. And it was interesting for me being able to obviously stay on my account while you had it because part of part of what we signed up for, you know, I'm telling the audience this is to monitor comments d m s, make sure you weren't on the receiving end of messages you did not need to read. And I was. I was so heartened. And you know, I get a lot of hate and a lot of threat and a lot of whatever online because again, as an outspoken woman, you get it. So knowing what I'm on the receiving end of sometimes I was like, I I know there are people in my audience who are divine, wonderful here to learn, who are going to be so great to love you. But if some of those people who come for me come for her with that same kind of threat and racism, I'm gonna lose ship. So I was like really in the d M s all day and I was just crying. I was like, these people are so nice. You know, I never saw you. So I was like, I hope they're not losing Oh my god. And like my mom, literally every single frame of every single story you posted was like, go love me, we love you, We're so glad you here. I'm so glad you partnered with my daughter. And I was like me reading fun I took them, but so many people were just like, this is amazing, We're so glad you're here. I'm learning so much. I'm buying your book and it was like it was beautiful. And and I say that because I hope that all the people who are listening to us talk, we'll hear that so often there's a disparity. Will hear that people who are nasty tend to be louder than people who are kind. And so my request is that you show up in these spaces with your kindness and let it be loud, like, help turn the energy of the internet around, help help combat this stuff so that these platforms are held more accountable, so that they they can't police black women and activists but leave like racists and antivactors up exactly, we literally were like yo, wow, how and and to your point, I think kindness is truth. Oftentimes people think kindness is me being quiet and say hey and just being chipper. There's nothing more kind then putting your power on the line for somebody else. There's nothing more kind in this world than that selfless act. To be kind is to be selfless, and people be kind is being nice, to be like, oh my god, bubbly. I don't need bubbly. If you're speaking up for me, I don't need you to be like, oh my god's morning. I'm so excited when you are working behind the scenes in doing thankless work that nobody would ever even know it's not you know, even about saying Hey, I just did this cool thing for somebody else. Behind is showing up for people. Being kind is really caring about what happens to my fellow human being. That's the kindness that we need from people. And that's the courage that we need from people. M hmmm mm hmmm. So we're talking about courage and kindness and trying to change the world and launching social initiatives and writing books and being an activist and being a TED speaker. It's a lot that you give of yourself and of your heart and of your knowledge, and you welcome a lot of people in not without rules, but you welcome a lot of people into your spaces to learn from you. That is an energetic commitment. And I want under in a world that is intense to participate in, to be a leader in, to be a black woman. And how do you take time for you? What does self care look like for you? How how have you learned to hold some space for yourself in the midst of all this. What I missed most about quarantine is getting massages. I missed that so much. I'm like, oh my god, I want a two hour massage so bad, like so that I just wanted two hour massage and I want somebody to work out all the cakes all of that. Um. But outside of that, really just you know, spending time with people. I love having the Zoom game nights has been being um, randomly video chatting them. Um. Sometimes you know what, playing the sims I am. That is usually when I finished writing my book and I was like, oh my gosh, I might see not on any deadlines right now, I end up sitting there playing the stands for six hours. Why because in a world where there's no tragedies, it's great to create a world where it's just like, you know what, I'm gonna control of my else's world now for the next six hours and and just do thoughtless things and read, you know, read, listen to music. Um. All of that is part of my self care routine spent just yeah, I'm not maintenance. I love that. My very favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show is the show is called work in progress. So if it's a personal or a professional or a self care moment, what what feels like the work in progress in your life? Aside from needing to use your bathom, what it's related stillness? I need to prioritize stillness and time for myself. I don't do it. I eduled everything else. I don't schedule this, and it's something that I am constantly like, I really need to stop it. And it's like have them, you know how some people are Like I wake up and I journal and I meditate and I I want to be snappers is so bad, but I'm gonna be. And I'm like I wanted me too. I'm always like okay, okay, I just woke up and I'm like, okay, maybe now I can do still It's like what's going on Instagram? Because like I'm not that person. I want to be that person. So that's my work in progress. I like that. Yeah. I actually it's funny that you say it about scheduling because I'm the same. My day is scheduled within an inch of its life every day. And I had a conversation with my buddy Kyle. He's a writer, and he said to me, oh, I had to take back my mornings and he got real honest. He he talks. He's a really sassy, funny like recovering ad exact, super successful, super smart, and he opened up on Instagram maybe like two years of go about going through a period where he was really suicidal and people were so short they were like you, what do you mean? And and he just talked about how he really didn't feel like his life was his own. And then a big step for him, he said, I reclaimed my mornings. He said, I don't take a meeting until noon. I won't do it. And he and then as his methodology of healing, he would schedule his mornings like they were meetings, but he would schedule meditation, he would schedule exercise, he would schedule journaling. He scheduled it because that's how his brain understood how to do it, and and it was non negotiable for months and months and months, and he said it changed his life. So maybe we don't have to the mornings. I think so, because my morning started with a alright, I haven't meeting an excertain minutes, all right, and then I'll have four meetings and then by the time I look up, it's one pm, and I'm like, i'ven't even eaten anything. So it's it's absolutely something I have to fix. I have to I have to So yeah, okay, so this is the next thing we're gonna work on. Like facts. You and I are always texting about like news articles and what we're gonna do next, But we're gonna start texting each other accountability, self care. Let's make a morning plan. Yeah, Like, I haven't worked out in like six weeks. Meanwhile, I bought an exercise bike, not the peloton, but I bought an exercise bike and I was doing jump ropes for a hot second. I haven't done anything in a month. So yeah, we gotta get that that. No, we gotta get together. We gotta get together. We need we need to collect ourselves, collect ourselves correct. That needs to happen where it's like team, hold each other accountable. That has to happen, like honestly the professional piece, that's okay, but we were neglecting the personal. Yeah, okay, look homework for us to the audience has homework, work, We have homework. It's great. Yes, thank you for today, thank you for I mean thank you for every day. But thank you for when you you bless the folks I am privileged enough to speak to when when you bless them with with what you give me as a friend, it's it's just I don't have words for it. Thank you for having me and being an amazing, amazing human. Like it's honestly again, like I I am full of joy in my life because I haven't amazing. I have amazing people in my life and people like you, who, um really just show me that like there are other fighters in the world. It's not just us, right, We're not on islands by ourselves. And you know, I'm always disheartened by your friendship and just to know you and this is really cool and I'm just like, oh my gosh, yeah again, it's wild, like a little lot of things I thought about this life and the level of like the caliber of people I have in my life who even it's not even about the bike and they are known or visible. It's just like heart strong, heart led people who deeply care about the world, not committed to doing something about it. And yeah, man, so I'm honored to know you. Same, my sweet sister. I just love you. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley, our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Clinton. Brilliant Anatomy