Work in Progress with Sophia BushWe kick off our first episode back with former White House Press Secretary and host of one of the most-watched news programs on MSNBC, Jen Psaki.
Jen joins Sophia to discuss her journey to the White House, putting her neck on the line for her beliefs and the news sources she trusts the most.
Plus, Jen talks about what she wants audiences to get out of her show, what you should know going into the next election, and she weighs in on the concerns over Biden's age.
Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress friends. I am so so excited to be back with all of you, my dear Work in Progress community, my whipsmarties, my friends from all over the world. We are back for season three. I've missed you all, and I am so very excited to be launching our third season with yet another incredibly impressive woman who I just admire to the core of my being. Today we are joined by none other than Jen Saki. You know her as the former White House Press Secretary for President Joe Biden. Zaki was a longtime advisor to President Barack Obama. She served as the traveling press secretary on his first long shot campaign and later served as the White House Communications Director. She served as the administration's public face on a very global stage. During her tenure as the State Department spokesperson, she traveled the world with Secretary of State John Carrie. She currently is hosting Inside with Jen Sacki on MSNBC on both Sundays and Mondays. There is just so much to dig into with her, not only in her incredibly impressive career letting the rest of us know what's going on in Washington, but the way she moves through the world as an advocate, as a wife, as a mom, and honestly one of the people who I have the most fun hanging out with in the world. So let's jump in with Jen. Jen Sackie, I am so excited that you are here today. I am just, you know, so enamored with you as a human, as someone who has helped to write the ship of American democracy, who has helped remind people of the importance of journalism. And you're also just fun as shit like you are a good time to hang out with.
We have hung out, we really have.
And you know you've You've made the press room at the White House infamous, You've made Sakebamb's infamous. You've really brought us so much, you know, truth and entertainment together, which is a big deal these days. But I want to go back before we dive into what your life is now and your sort of journey to get here. I want to go like way back, because you know, you've worked in presidential administrations, you have paved this incredible path in American journalism. But I'm curious if you were always like this, like who who was Jen? At eight? Can you pay as a picture. Where did you grow up, what was your home life like? Were you were you curious and verbose at that age?
Set us?
Set us a scene.
I would say, well, first of all, I'm just going to say that you are a person who I have only known for not that long, but have known of for many years, like so many people. And what people don't always know about someone like you, or you specifically is that you use your platform for such good and you talk about issues you care about and impact so many people across the country. You don't have to do that. And you were like a beautiful soul that kind of goodness comes out of. So it's been such a joy to get to know you a little bit, and it's such a pleasure to be here with you today. And I just didn't want to forget to convey that.
So kind thank you.
You know, an eight year old me, I want to know what an eight year old you was like. Tool me was I was definitely always talkative. My parents have videos me from preschool where they kind of you know, your preschool would do a video with you and interview you, and you can see because it's old school, you know, it was the eighties, there's a lot of editing because I would just keep talking and I was talking, and that is probably always been part of my personality. I was a huge reader as a little kid. It's funny. My daughter is now eight, so I look at her and sometimes I see this kind of My husband says, you never want to project on your kids to be anyone other than who they're intended or meant to be. But I do look at my daughter sometimes and it kind of freaks me out that she is. There is something about, you know, biological traits you pass along, right, I was very sporty as a kid. I have zero, yeah or theatrical talents, so you are you know, you are bypassed me by one hundred million decibels on that front.
Well, to be clear, I wanted to be sporty. I grew up playing soccer, and you know, I'm like the world's biggest US women's national team fan. And now you know, in the ownership group of Angel City. The only reason I am not a soccer player is because A I do not have the skills, and be I have terrible asthma. So like I had to become a theater kid because I was incapable of being an athlete.
Well, listen, okay, I was playing on the soccer team. Just to give you a sense of my theatrical inability. I was in two different productions of The Music Man growing up. Anyone's familiar with that. I was passed both times as trained person number eight, which if you're wondering that, it's not a big role. So the point is I was just I was into a lot of sports. I was a swimmer, I played soccer, I ran track in high school. That was kind of a big part of my especially swimming was a big, big part of my youth was sports, and just that was a big consumer for me.
Yeah, you swam in college, didn't you.
I did through my sophomore year. I would say, as much as sports was a big consumer for me, I was a mediocre college summer. So it's like, all good, now we can just be real about where our talents are and are not. But you know, for me, it was a big part of it was the camaraderie teammates just kind of and also swimmers. It's similar to running a little bit, you have to. It creates kind of a ability to focus because if you're two hours at five in the morning, you're maybe a little bit maniacal, but also it creates kind of anability to focus. And I still sometimes think there's nothing worse than jumping in a pool at five am, and so whatever it is. But yeah, I was kind of a sports a sporty kid.
I feel like team sports really serve you well in politics, yeah, you know, learning, learning how to communicate with people and problems together. It's it's sort of the way I feel about growing up on TV sets essentially, because it's it's not dissimilar in that, you you know, you get put onto a team, onto a cast with a bunch of people, and you got to figure out how to make it work and create like a little work family.
Did you have to because you must have had to kind of just really adapt to whatever kind of new family you were with. You didn't get to pick these teammates just to keep the technology going and yeah, identify like this is my bestie for this show, or this person maybe isn't going to be you know.
Yeah, I think it took me time, and I guess i'd be curious to know how it felt for you, you know, entering into administrations, because for me, I had this really sort of you know, presently nostalgic idea that we were gonna we were all going to like, you know, move to our location and be best friends. And it's a struggle for me to not feel really close the people around me. And it's taken me into my adult life to realize, like, we're not all for everyone. I'm probably not for everyone, and this person over there might not be for me, and that's fine. You know, you can really coexist well with people even if they don't feel like one of your you know, lifelong friendship soulmates. But that took me a minute to be able to accept because I wanted that sort of closeness and camaraderie. I wanted it to feel like, you know, the Summertime sitcom come to life. And I think for me, the beauty of figuring out how to you know, work with acquaintances and then identify real friends has has really created the present landscape of my life with you know, some of the friends we were speaking about earlier and some of our budding relationships. And it's like, in a way, now that I don't expect everyone to be my people, I'm much more quick to be able to discern who really is my people, and then I'm like, you're one of them.
Let's go. That's so valuable, I think, right, I mean, do you consider yourself a people pleaser? I'm considered I have innately one as well. I think you are one.
Oh yeah, there's no way to be the daughter of immigrants and not be like a like a vehement almost at times, like detrimental to oneself people pleaser. I think I call myself a recovering people pleaser. Yes, I decided to change my life at forty and like stop. Yeah, and really it didn't happen until forty one and I was like, I'm done. I'm officially done. Everything from here on out will be different. I am celebrating my forty first birthday as my first birthday. Gobye.
That is so interesting you say that because I when I turned forty, I found this feeling like, well, one, I was like, all of a sudden thinking about mortality, not that you're that old. But once I got past that, I was like, wow, you're kind of in that like fit phase in a very good way. Right. I feel like from so many years, like you, it sounds like I wanted people to like me. I didn't want people to be pleased or mad at me, and then you get to a certain phase where to your point you're like, you know what, this is a poisonous friendship or a poisonous relationship, and we don't need to do this anymore. A friend of mine call It's like a version of quiet quitting, when you like quiet quit a friendship, yes, but just realizing like you need to leave space in your life for the people who bring you joy and value. And I love the Brene Brown. Have you ever seen this about like candle blower outers like people? You want to surround yourself with people who are not going to blow out the light of you and everybody has left right like people, I'm not for everybody. Everybody's not for me. But you know, that's one of the things I think since I turned forty, I feel like I have really tried to explore those like connecting relationships more than like a gatherer of people who aren't mad at me.
Yeah. Well, and you know what it made me think about. One of the things I've been really examining this summer and with some of the you know folks who you and I both call friends, is this thing about inputs versus outputs, and to realize that when you are a people pleaser, and when you are a woman in any facet of entertainment where you are sort of expected to juggle all of the things all of the time and make it look easy. I realized so much of my life has been based on my making selections out of the things that have come to me as inputs, but my options the things that present themselves to me. And I sort of went, wait a second, what do I want to go out and get?
What?
What do I want to go out?
You know?
What are the things I want to output toward and what makes me happy? Not just what am I selecting out of based on what I'm being offered, but what what is this sort of highest level of my dreams? What is my highest good? What makes me the happiest out of this giant pool out here? Not just what someone hands to me and says pick one.
Yes, that's so. It's like it's not I always say, like, don't vacation by obligation. It's the same thing, like don't just wait for things I love that inputs versus outputs. That's so bad, I think in my twenties and maybe even my thirties, I felt afraid of kind of saying out loud what I wanted. Right, It was like like what if people rejected that? What if they said I couldn't do that? And so it was like you go along to get along a little bit. That's such a healthy, healthy bridge to move past and listen.
I mean, we we experience the world as well as women. We can't act as though gender discrimination doesn't affect us. And there is a lot of energy out in the world where when a woman says I want this, my ambition looks like this, the world says, how dare you? You should be grateful for what we give to you? You know, you should. You should stick to acting, You should shut up and dribble, you should keep your mouth shut, and and so it is a It is a bit of a revolution, I think, to hit that point in your life where you say, wait, I it's okay for me to want more. It's okay for me to want. It's okay for me to exercise curiosity. It's okay for me to go about my day wanting to experience my highest good rather than make sure to your point, everyone likes me.
Yeah, I mean, and every input is not equal, you know. It's like that's the other thing is there are so many people out there. I mean, most of it is not conscious. I don't think or I like to think that way because I think I'm kind of an optimist of people who will try to categorize you to your point, all of us, right, that's human nature. They want to look at you and they say, you're an actress. That's what you do. You can't do anything else. And it's like everybody's multifaceted. But that's not something that people can accept or have a harder accepting.
And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. It's not lost on me that you and I, both as recovering people pleasers, have literally put our necks on the line for what we believe in, for democracy. You know, we've stepped out you in the sort of upper echelon that I so deeply look up to. So I don't want to create a false equivalency here, but in our own ways, like as women in the public eye, to go out and talk about big issues and to call bad actors on their bad behavior, be it the you know, the former guy or you know as you did. Oh so many times, Pete Doocey in the in the press room.
I really good relationship with but that I know you do.
But I really appreciated the days where you just be like come on, come on, like be better. I'm really curious, can you can you tell us a little bit about your road to becoming press secretary? Obviously we're in this moment where now you know you're transitioning into being a TV host. But for the folks at home who don't know how a person becomes a White House employee, let alone the you know, the press secretary for the president, Like, what's the journey? Did you identify that as a desire in you know, high school or college? Did it find you? How did this happen?
No? First of all, I had never even been to the White House before I went to work there for Barack Obama. Actually, during the transition, Bill Burton and I, who was a former colleague, we went and we visited the White House and Dana Perino was the Press secretary because it was the Bush administration we were transitioning in, and we went up to the gate. It kind of reminded me of like the wizrom of Oz where we were like hello, we're here, Will you let us in? Are they gonna let us in? And so I may have gone there. I think Obama actually went there briefly during the campaign. I was with him, but that was the first time I was really like looking around inside or had kind of gone inside. And so, no, it was never an aspiration. I've never had a five year plan. I still don't. I find it kind of limiting and a little overwhelming and limiting at the same time. And I never aspired to work in the White House, to work in government anything like that. I think for me, the journey was, you know, out of college, like two years out of college, I went and I worked on my first political campaign in Iowa, and I kind of got bitten by the bug. I loved being a part of something that felt like it was bigger than myself. But also just to go back to our shared analogy of a sports team and a TV cast, I'm o pretend like I know what that's like. It was it's like a family working on a campaign. You're working toward a shared goal and there's a purpose and you're trying to make the world better in some way. And I, you know, I loved it from the first campaign I did, and then really from there, I just kind of kept working my way through campaigns and government jobs and tried to work for people or tried to get jobs for people. I guess it's not like you just get whatever job you want, obviously, but for people I believed in, you know, And there were times when I, you know, when I worked for Obama. When I went to work for Obama in February two thousand and seven, everybody's like, well, including my then boyfriend who's now my husband, who you know, was like, well, we've only been dating for not that long. And he was like, well, I mean he'll only be in the race for a couple of months, so like we can you know, keep dating long distance or whatever it was. You know, there wasn't a real belief that he could win, but I believed in him, so I was like, well, here we go, you know. I mean, and I think that has been a guiding principle for me, is like can you just like sleep on a ratty couch and eat bad pizza and drink bad beer and still feel like this is a cool thing to be a part I mean, I don't have to do that anymore. But like back in the day. So really that was that was it. I mean, I really got into the communications and press world through kind of a funny journey as well, which involved me knock on the door of the communications director for the Iowa Democratic Party, this guy named Mark Daily, who I literally was like, I think I'm pretty good at writing, and I was, I'd love to kind of learn. It's so cringey when I think back to this, but not kind and generous. You know, you meet kind and I've found I've met kind and generous people that I didn't expect to be. Not that I expected them not to be, but I didn't anticipate they would be in my career. And then I've also been disappointed by people who I thought would be right. It kind of it evens out in some ways, but I kind of got into it that way, you know, the origin story, so to speak.
Oh, it's so cool. I remember hitting the ground in O seven and going to campaign in Texas and like, yeah, same thing, driving around with my buddy Adam and a couple of young OBAMA staffers and we were like in a minivan going from college to college to go talk to people and you know, talk about transitioning out of the Bush era. So many people back then were like, oh, you must be the black sheep of your family, and I was like, I'm not related to those people from Texas. My dad is from Canada. I do not claim any of that history. But like, yeah, I joking, I started wearing a Bush for Obama T shirt. There's probably a photo of it somewhere.
Yeah, it was really fun. I feel like a vintage thing right, Like.
At this point, I need to go through all my storage boxes and find it. But oh yeah, it was such a It was such a cool time, and I definitely got bit by the bug as well because I don't know, I think whatever whatever purpose you might feel, you know, playing a team sport or you know, going and making a television series or a film with you know, the team that is your cast, when when your purpose for your team is democracy, you know, the the elevation of the quality of life for American communities. Like what better purpose is there than that? True, it feels scary that we're at a time where we've got so many people running who seem to have their guiding purpose be more money for billionaires and nothing for anyone else. But we'll get there.
No it's so true. I mean, I think, I mean, I'm really interested in your journey into getting involved in this too, But I just to echo kind of what you said. I mean, what makes it kind of easy to be involved in politics and government and even to have transition to as a transitioned is that, you know, it's really what I've tried to do most of the time as much as I can, is like stay rooted in what I actually believe, right, I mean, and I think sometimes and I know you've done the same thing. It's and sometimes I think with kind of all of these stories over the last year or so about say, like some people from Fox News who have gone on television and said things they didn't necessarily believe. You know, we can critique that, but we don't need to do that now. But more you kind of feel it's like you go, I can't imagine going to work every day and working for someone you didn't believe in, or having to advocate for things you just like were repelled. But you know whatever, and that is I've been fortunate or tried to follow the path of being authentic to what I believe. And then it makes you know, being a press person or talking about on television easier because you believe it, so it's who you are.
Yeah, I really like that. So I'm curious then, because making the transition from being the press secretary, you know, from working in the White House every day to going to shift and host a TV show to move on to MSNBC. What made you decide to do that, And how's the transition been for you, you.
Know, I mean being serving as Biden's president Biden's press secretary. I never thought I would go back to government. I mean it was such icing on a cake for me. I had served, had worked for Obama on and off, but mostly for the eight years plus two campaigns, and I ended up working on the Biden transition because I felt like I want to do something. I don't know what it is. I just feel like I need to be a part of if Trump loses, journeying to the other side, if that makes sense, whatever.
That is, and the repair of the rep right exactly.
And I think that's true for a lot of people who kind of ended up going back to government. I mean, I'd always wanted to be the press secretary as like a dream job in politics, and it was a dream job when I was doing it, but when I was hired, part of what we talked about was kind of doing it for a short period of time, because part of it was being able to high and build a team of people who could be next generation. Sounds dramatic. It's not like di seople were so much younger than me or anything, but like kind of the next faces and voices of people who would be speaking on behalf of the White House and other government agencies. And so for me, part of the appeal was obviously I'd always wanted to do the job. I thought Joe Biden was exactly the right person for the time, but also was building this team of people, and so I actually stayed twice as long, I think, as as I as we had initially discussed, and I would probably keep doing I mean, that job was amazing. I loved doing it every day. But I also feel, you know, so proud to have been a part of you know. I look around and Chris Maher, who was one of the deputy press secretaries, is now running communications at the Pentagon, and Vedon Patel, who was one of the assistant press secretaries, is now the deputy spokesperson at the State Department, and you know, I could go on. I mean, this is, this is these these are people who were out there playing really amazing roles. And that was part of what was one of the things that was so amazing with that job. So I knew I wasn't gonna stay forever because I'd already had my moment and had my time and this was just like being a part of yeah, transitioning from the last in some ways. So yeah, but the transition itself, I mean, what has been so amazing. It's funny because I think when I started, I've never worked for even though I've work government. It's a big bureaucracy obviously, but I've never really worked for a big company before. Right, NBC is a huge company. And I remember they reached out to me a month or two before I started and they were like, we're sitting in your laptop and something else, and I was like what, I was like, this is very organized because the governments are like here's a pen, They're like, good luck, go do your job. But what I what I've found to be so great is that there are similarities to government in politics and that there's a lot of smart and I nerdy and I mean nerdy in the best way possible. People kind of wandering around where Like I'm sitting in my office now, I'm like a next door to Christina Andano from Telemundo, three doors down from Joy Reid, around the corner from Andrew Mitchell. You know Tom Costello who it talks about NASA flights and airports and it's like interesting. So it's a bunch of like nerdy people who are just trying to get more information and then tell the world about it. That's in some way similar to what I've lived in before, and when breaking news and things are happening, it's kind of exciting. The funniest part of the transit. There's definitely skill sets I had to learn, like reading a teleprompter and things like that. But the funniest thing is I feel like I spent so many years in government because I was kind of younger in certain jobs. I had then typical dressing older, right, Like I kind of you know, you just want to be taken seriously, so I would like, you know, wear the kind of conservative navy blue suit. I assume that there's probably some nine year old woman who left all of her Saint John knits in like a consignment store that I bought and I could would wear those so I could kind of look older. And now actually, in some ways it's like I'm back to being exactly who I am in my real life. Right Like I'm wearing jeans right now. I wear jeans to work every day, so does everybody, most people here. So that's a funny part of the transition I didn't anticipate. But what I've really tried to think about is how can I use my experience from government and politics and help make things make sense for people but also help I mean one of the things. And I'd be interested because I'm sure you've experienced this. Every politician I know, or anybody I know who's been in the public eye as you have been for years, feels caricatured right by how they are thought of or described right, and that is very true for politicians right for good or for bad. You are tough. You can't be tough and goofy. You can't be kind of like smart and also edgy. I mean, it's you know, there's and so part of what has excited me about being here is like being able to kind of peel the curtain back a little bit to who people are right and show a part of these elected officials in a way that people don't see. I mean, I'm a person who thinks that most people work in government and do it for good. Even if you disagree with me on policy issues, people do it for good. They want to make the world a better place. There are bad actors, bad apples, for sure, and so that's been a part. So it's really been No one's asked me to be anything other than who I am and say what I think, and all what I try to do is kind of integrate in my experience in a way that's informative. But I'm learning every day.
So how does it feel, you know, sitting in your office, having learned all these new skill sets, having this new career, being able to be more yourself, being asked to just be who you are, and being able to offer that sort of position of openness to your guests. Does it in a way? Has it helped you feel less caricatured? How did you feel being a political figurehead? How did you feel like you were caricatured as press secretarium? Do you feel like it's changing?
Yeah, I mean I think that you know, when I was the press secretary. It was like sometimes I would need people and they would think I was about to debate them or something. You know, that's what I did in my day to day job, right sure, at the podium, but that wasn't That's not how I spent my weekends. Right. I have two little kids, I'm a mom, I live in a neighborhood. I take my daughter the bus every morning. You know, it's not And I think, what what has been amazing about this transition for me? It's not, you know. And the thing is that when you're the press secretary, it's not about you. It's about you speaking on behalf of the person you're you're representing. Right, So it wasn't about me sharing more of myself, especially in the time we were in it is still in you know. It was about and this is something the President and I talked about when early on, was really restoring some kind of calm and stability to the room and trying to take some venom out of the whole conversation, including with people who were just you were disagreeing with or being propaganda's in there. You got to cut them down, shut them down, but not in a way that was abusive. You know, and so I think that was about out playing the role of doing that in my day to day life. I am definitely direct and opinionated, but I also am multifaceted, just like everybody is right and so it's been And I think when I spend time with politicians or people who I have on the show, especially if I go out and I spend a day with them or something, what I really want to bring out is who they are, you know, who they not. Yes, their policy positions, that's important and people should understand them. But I also think there is a, in part because of Trump and maybe in large part, a belief that like our institutions and the people who represent us are all bad and that's just not true. And so I think part of it is trying to bring some of that to life for people. Yeah, putting about myself, you know, and being being true to myself.
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. I think it's really important that we're reminded that people are human. And I do think that the level of hypocrisy that he injected into our political landscape did such damage. I mean, you see it, you know, on the right, even the fact that you've got you know, a Lauren Bobert out there rallying against equity equality, you know, saying all the hideous things that she does about our queer communities and our drag communities. And then she's like, you know, basically having sex in a theater in front of children. It's like, it's the hypocrisy.
Like is she going to go there? She's going there, and I'm so happy about it.
It's the hypocrisy for me where I'm like, you know, it's it's kind of wild, ma'am. Like, it's not the performers, and it's not you know, the kids who have two moms that are being exposed to weirdness in the world. It's apparently the people who have to sit next to you at Beetlejuice, Like, ah, it's tough, and and I understand that there, you know, there's so many of us, myself included. And look, I'm really tapped into politics. I know not everybody is in the way that I am, and certainly even fewer of us are in the way that you are. But I think it can get tiring to say, Okay, these people who preach about a moral core don't have one. These people who talk about anti corruption are the most corrupt. You know, people feel a little exhausted about how to navigate with any sense of sanity, you know, the upcoming election. Where do they get news that they can trust? There's so many different places, you know, trying to input at all of us to your point, you know, the most watched news network in America had had its hosts talking about how much they hated the former president and then going on the air and lying about him being a good guy. So, as a literal expert in this world, what news sources do you trust? How do you where do you recommend we go? And how do you help our audience? You know, the folks at home listening to us today, are there like a couple of hot tips you have for who to trust and how to know?
Yeah, it's such a good question. One let me just start with it is it is. Let me just acknowledge it is an overwhelming time, right, and it can feel overwhelming when you look at the threats that we're facing to democracy, to women's rights, to human rights. And I consider LGBTQ rights, trans rights to be part of that, and I honestly is a sidebar. I honestly don't understand why this is the hill anyone dies on, Like why you care? It is like beyond it being kind of immoral and acting people's lives, I mean, opposing how people are living their lives. It's like, why do you care? Why is this? If you're so about government getting out of your business, why do you care about how people are living their true lives?
Well, because they can't win on any issues because their policies are trash, so they have to create hysteria and fear to gain voters. It's like, it's it's it's literally just the demonizing of our most vulnerable populations to create the hysterics, rather than saying like, yeah, actually maybe better healthcare and infrastructure would be good for everybody. They have nothing to win on, so they they they're vicious and the cruelty is the point.
Unfortunately, it is the point, you know. I would say, on my best days, what I try to do is read broadly, and I mean yes, I read the Times, the posts, try to read some in Politico, try to read some now granted, this is my job is not everybody's job, right, It is like you know, and I try to read explainers of things so that I can understand for myself what is going on in a particular circumstance. I'm always wary. I do probably have like a contrarian streak in me. I'm always wary when there's like everybody's chasing the same soccer ball. I'm like, wait a second, I'm not sure about that. And I'm also weary sometimes. And I live in Washington. Obviously, I love this town. I think there's a lot of great people. But there is sometimes a tendency to speak in a language that is both inaccessible and in my view, as a cover up of not understanding the actual issues at play.
Right Wait, can you say more about that?
Well, what I mean is like, sometimes you'll hear people and this happens on television too, for sure, where people will be like, well, you know, the person from the Blue Dog Caucus really disagreed with the squad member and that's really the core issue, and you're like, is that the core issue or is It's like there can be a tendency to kind of go deeply into Washington, DC vernacular, which can be sort of a comfort place but also a place where you miss the force through the trees sometimes and also sometimes I think it can be a cover up for really not knowing the depth of the policy substance at times. Right, these issues are complicated, They're not always black and white. So I think reading broadly, I try. I mean, I think The Atlantic is an amazing magazine. They do really excellent work, long form pieces. When I can read them, I really try to read. But it's really about consuming a lot so that you can make your own decisions.
Right.
Are there trusted broadcasters? Of course there are, and you know they're on every nearly nearly every network. But I also think it's important to empower yourself with information and from trusted sources, and largely that is media organizations of all of many kinds. And you know, if you can consume more, you're going to be more informed, which is easier said than done. I realized people are very busy out there, But if you were starting from scratch and had like an hour each day, that's what I would advise.
Yeah, I really like that. I think it's interesting. I hear you doing this thing that I really admire, where you're saying, you know, there's trusted reporters on almost every news network. You're you're you're exercising a level of decorum to not, you know, go out, and perhaps it's because you know better than to offer whoever will listen to this podcast the clickbait of you saying like the people that I will call trash, you won't call trash, and I respect you.
I mean, look, I don't think Hannity is telling you the truth?
Right, Well, no, we know he's not. H We've seen the text messages. We know that none of them were telling us the truth.
Right. There's plenty of right wing conservative people who I'm not going to name because I'm not going to give them the dignity of naming them, because these are people just randomly attack me for their own clicks, are not trusted. But I think, yeah, most people you know who you will know who you know? Right?
Yeah?
Yeah?
But when I when when you think about because look, you have this sort of dual experience as a as a person, a citizen, a voter in our country, and also as a figurehead in the media. I'm watching the ways in which I imagine you have to sort of consider certain things you say or express because of the position that you hold. When when you are actually in your chair and reporting the news on your show, do you consciously have to think about ways that you don't let your personal feelings, opinions bias whatever word you want to fill in the blank into the reporting. Or do you think we are in an era where part of the reason people tune in to your show is because they want to hear your opinion on the issues and how those issues make you feel. How do you balance that on the tightrope of your job?
I mean, I think part of it is being using my experience as a way to inform, right, and not hiding not trying to hide it. Right. If I went out there and said, on one hand, abortion activists are saying this, and on another hand, anti abortion activists are saying that, it wouldn't be very authentic, right. I mean, I have done work for Planned parenthood. I have spoken many times about how important that issue is. That wouldn't be authentic. If I were to go out and say, you know, President Biden, who I like a great deal personally, by the way, and I've said is the greatest president in history and has never done anything wrong, that wouldn't be true either, right, right, And so part of it is really trying to evaluate how can I use my experience in a way that is informative because I can sometimes say, even to even when it's a person or a person who may be on the side of issues, I agree with, you know what, that's actually not a big deal, or like we shouldn't be overreacting about that, because by the way, everything is not a five alarm fire. Otherwise we're all hiding under our beds. It also means that I hope that I can that I am establishing credibility with the audience where they know that what I'm trying to do is provide facts and informed view. I am not trying to gaslight you. I'm not trying to spin you. But there are moments when information and details and facts are informative to empower people. That's like when when people watch the show and we don't do this. We don't meet this bar every week, no one does. But like I want people to end watching the show and feel like I learned something I didn't know. I want to go tell my neighbor about that, or I learned something about a person that surprised me. One or the other. Both is like you're you know, that's a sweet spot, and that means sometimes you're calling things out. I mean a couple of weeks ago, it was like this talking point from the right about how Democrats were for like third like late term abortion, and that was the primary policy thats were running on. I was like, well, I know this is not true, but I need to need to dive into the facts of what the truth is, right, what's the thing? Will you learn a very tiny percentage of abortions or in the third term, the vast vast majority of them are because the baby will not survive or the mother may not make it. You know, there's there's so many and so we tried to really go through a fact based debunking of it because I think, yeah, it kind of feels magical when you get all those facts. But also it's about wanting to empower people to be able to make the arguments with the information, not just words, right, but with the details of it. And so you know, we kind of look for things where we can kind of debunk, inform empower people who are watching. That's the goal.
Well, and it feels so important. I mean, heading into an election year, you do you see these talking points on the right that feel actual. I mean it's insane, like to say that anyone is out you know, performing abortions in the ninth month, Like, what are we talking about? That's not a thing that happens, and yet we are really on the receiving end of this fire hose of misinformation, and I think it creates a sense of panic that the election is coming, you know, even though it's a year out. How do you sort of advise people to think about the election and how do you take to your point? You know, what you're talking about is practicality. It's giving people practical, factual information to combat the wild world that we seem to live in. And we see it, you know, we see news organizations running polls talking about Biden's age, even though him and Trump are basically the same age. He is, you know, to your point, whether you think he's a perfect president or not, he is one of our most effective presidents in sixty years. The data doesn't lie, you know, what he's been able to accomplish an infrastructure in the American Rescue Plan, and the work he's doing to combat inflation. Whether you like the guy or not, he's a really good president. And it's weird to me that we seem to live in this upside down where we pretend that maybe that isn't true, or we pretend that there's two similar options. We made the mistake with Trump and Hillary Clinton, you know, saying they were basically the same and clearly know so I guess I just wonder from your advantage point, Yeah, we know the truth. How do you recommend people think about the election? And how do you how can you encourage people to think about it in practical ways that are actually rooted in reality.
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing that's so important to remember. You don't need to have a television show or a podcast in order to have your voice heard. And I say that not just to say it, but because the most trusted voices are neighbors. We know this, our neighbors or friends, our people, you know. And so my mother always always says, like, especially if you're going through a stressful time, I always think of like moving or whatever it may be, bite the elephant, one bite at a time. And that is very true. It can feel so overwhelming, even though it's important to remember what's at stake, it can feel overwhelming to be like, oh my god, what am I going to do to save our democracy? Right? Well, it's like every person matters and every voice matters. But what you can do to save democracy might be to have ten neighbors over and like, you know, see if everybody can give five dollars and make some food for the local campaign office. I don't even have to do all those things. It is about finding the way that works in your life to contribute to the cause. And there is not one answer and the answer, because I think this kind of stops people sometimes. It's like we let n't even know. I don't have any time, and I don't have a megaphone, and it's like you don't need that you need. Right, you can decide I'm going to do three things before the end of the year to contribute to this. Can you take an older neighbor to get registered, Can you you know, get your college kids friends registered? And can you also like give five dollars? Well, then you've done three things, right. It's about not making it so overwhelming that it's impossible.
I like that, friends. There is just so much that I want to get into on this incredibly important topic with this incredibly impressive guest that we are actually going to pause here and be back with a part two with Jen Zaki
