Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Oh god, guys, I'm so excited about today. I think that this is actually the first work in progress interview with someone that I've been on a show with, and it was hands down one of the most fun filming experiences I have ever had in my life. Jacqueline Tiboni is an amazing actress who I got to work with on the Netflix show Easy. If you haven't seen it yet, you should go watch. You're welcome. It was so much fun to have my co star and my now dear friend on the pod to learn more about her childhood. Jacklin grew up in San Francisco and went to Catholic school. To hear how she landed her first acting job while still in college. Casual here about her time working on Grim, also working with the amazing Joe Swanberg, our writer and director on Easy, and now she is starring in the L word Generation que. I was so thrilled to talk about how everything in life has led her to this moment and what it means to be forging a path with a new queer identity. I can't wait to watch her on that show. Enjoy my friend, Jacqueline. Well, Hi, Hi, thanks for coming. So I would hope that every single person who's listening to this has seen our episode of Easy, but who knows. And if you didn't, listeners, you're welcome. Let's get into it because that people are always like, how do you know these people? And we for anyone who saw it and anyone who didn't. Jacqueline I worked together on this amazing show called Easy. It's a Netflix series. This fantastic writer and director named Joe Swanberg created the show. It's an anthology about sex and relationships and how to make those things work technology not ours, sex relationships, technology, marriage, family, eating, dating. I guess yea and yeah, so we got to do that together in Chicago. You and Kirsy started on that show in its first season, so there's an episode for your characters every season, and then I came in and helped to stir it up. It was great. It was so much fun. I think. Also, I don't know if you are the reason for this. I'm sure you are, because everybody loves you and you have so many fans, but I've never been recognized as much as I did third season easy, even in the first and second seasons, Like I went to Pride and I was like, oh my god, I'm very overwhelm by how many people watched this episode. And I think it's because I mean, I told a couple of million people and it turned into I one of my favorite memes that I saw was like, someone made this amazing gift of our love scene and it got tweeted so many times, like some amazing person on the internet was like, so people just finally giving the Gaze everything they've ever wanted, and literally it got like retweeted thousands and thousands of times, and I was like, I mean, of course we're here to give you what you want. It's my honor. Yea, no skin, I was like, it's too cool. Um okay, So before you became a queer icon on television, because you are, and it's only about to like explode into the stratosphere with the next project, which we'll get to. I I like to go back because I realized I sit across from people who I love in a door and I know who you are right now, but like were you a miniature version of this person is a kid? Like, were you this sort of like thoughtful and comedic and spontaneous human? Who who's Jacqueline as a kid? I know you grew up in San Francisco, but like tell me, yeah, definitely, I think all those things maybe not thoughtful, but definitely comedic and spontaneous. Just like since I was little, have always liked to entertain on a really small scale with my family, and like at school, I was just so overly involved. I think looking back, I was like, oh my god, but I what does that mean? Were you like the president of every club at school? Sort of not like I was vice president of the Stoning Buddy, I was like the rally person. So I like not truly, I don't know, like really into it? Got it at one time? Took about to say this. I took a mascot was giving us a lot of ships, specifically because we were women that were leading our chairing section, and so I took off his the rearding Crusaders all boys school helmet like hat and punted it onto the basketball court. Did it hurt really bad? Because I caught some of a cage and I just limped it off pretended like nothing happened, but yeah, I just was really excitable. I really liked being, you know, getting people into stuff. I did, Oh God, and my cousin's wedding right before. Actually, Gavin Newsome gave the speech after me, and I was ten years old, and I was like, I want to give a speech to your wedding. And my cousin was like why but okay, And it was like his siblings and I and Kevin news and it's a very interesting mix. Yeah, like what And I did ten minutes of an impression of Dr Phil giving them advice on how to be in a relationship and a marriage and a healthy marriage. Is there a video of this? I don't know. I hope so there has to be somewhere. I will try to find it. We got to talk to your mom. Yeah, I've actually never seen like a home video of myself because I'm the fifth kid. When you have five kids under eight years olds, you're like not just whipping out the video camera the fun of it anymore. You're like, just make sure they're all alive. How is that? Because five kids under eight it feels very overwhelming to me. What's growing up in the Tuboni household, like as the youngest of five, Oh my gosh, very fun. I loved it. And I'm such a youngest kid. I'm sure your degree. I'm like, so yeah, I'm just the youngest kid. I don't really know how to describe it. There is like a little bit of the you have to fight for your talking place at the table. But I think that's why I became so into performing or making people laugh, because you get you kind of have to fight for attention and I did and I won, and I win. Yeah, I continue winning. I love you saying this that people can't see you, but you're literally sitting across from me in a soccer jersey with your hands on your ready to win, ready to rally. Okay, So you grew up in San Francisco, which is like, obviously for the most part, pretty progressive. It's environmentally conscious, it's like a cool it's a pretty cool part of California. What what kind of values were you raised on? Like what are what are your parents? Like? My parents are the best. They're so sweet. Their names for Mary and Joseph. We not talked about this. Oh my god, maryan Joseph, super Catholic, super loving, Irish, and Italian. My entire mom side of the family was raised in this neighborhood we live in, so how she grew up in is like four houses up from me. And then my aunt Julie lives there now, and my Barbara lives across the street, and Kathy used to live up the streets. So we call ourselves whenever we go places together for like a wedding or anything, we call ourselves the Traveling Neighborhood because we're all together and there's the youngest of first cousins and now everybody else is married, now everybody else has kids because I'm the youngest and I'm twenty six or whatever. Ye whoa, that's so cute. That feels like a movie, yeah, or sort of like that nostalgic American dream ideal that I think everybody thinks they had or wanted to have or to be in a neighborhood like that. Well, I hear, and when I'm looking at you, I see what you're imagining. And it wasn't necessarily like that, because I'm the youngest by so much. So all of my other cousins sort of grew up together, and then there was the younger half that grew up together, right, because there's twenty because there's so many. So really it was my siblings and I and a couple of my cousins that were that like got to play together and stuff like that. A lot of it was my brother's picturing like the pap up hockey in the street kind of totally, the ministicks, yes, yes, yeah, a lot of basketball, a lot of I mean we had boxing gloves which we go over. Well. My mom and I would go out to dinner and one of my brothers would be in charge of my brother Paul and I and would have like fights, and the fight stopped when Paul accidentally caught me with a with a right hook. I like landed one punch on him, and it was the greatest moment of my entire life because he was so quick and I hit him once and I was just in awe that I had done this, and then you just hit me with red hack and I like went down pretty hard. It's like that moment of celebration makes you freezing. You forget you're in the middle of a fight. You just forgot to. Yeah, I my mom taught me to box, started like really teaching me how to throw in land a punch when I was little because I had this horrible bully at school, this girl who was just man, she was a piece of work. And like, we were little, so the the amount of violence coming from such a young child feels extreme. And my mom first grade, oh yeah, like first or second grade, maybe first grade. Yeah, we were little. And I remember my mom telling me that I would just get in the car after school crying, and you know, she started realizing I had bruises from being punched by this girl, and and then every I remember the day, people were playing you know, recess, kind of idyllic little school children in a sandbox ort of situation, and we got into like a bit of a tug of work because she tried to take a toy that me and my other friend who I grew up with, we're playing with. And I was like, he and I are using this and when we're done, you can have it, like there are rules to sharing. Oh my god, your boundaries were so good. My boundaries were clear. I had to learn because my you know, I'm only but my my godparents, who are essentially my aunt and uncle, have three kids, so the four of us grew up together. So I sort of had the best of both worlds, Like I could go home when things got really out of hand and someone punched me in the face. But I also grew up in this like really loud, gregarious household. Long story longer. He and I were playing because we went to school together for a couple of years, and this girl was so mad that we wouldn't give up our toy. She went into the classroom, sharpened a pencil, came outside and shoved it up my nose, and I like actually had to go to the hospital and she like like she shived me in the face. We were little kids. I was covered in blood. I had to go to the hospital, and that that night my mom was like, that's it. You're learning how to box. And the next day when she came for me, I punched her in the face. So yeah, I learned similarly to box at a young age, and it was really a self defense mechanism. But I've kind of kept up with it a little bit, just like like I don't hit people, but I do it for exercise only if you have to. I my mom and my sister handled bullies very differently for me, because I think my immediate impulse would be to just like knock somebody out, and I don't think they wanted that. And the school was teasing me at school really bad who ended up being one of my really good friends. And my mom's like, okay, next thing she says. The next time she says something, to just go into your fat bastard impression. And I was like okay. So she'd be like a near fan. I'd be like, oh god, my baby, back back back, chilling, and she just looked at me like I was insane and walked away. Yeah, so your mom gave you some serious comedic skills. Yeah. I think she saw that I had the comedicy sellers and she was like, you can use this. Go that's genius. Yeah. I didn't get that. I got shived in the face and got taught to throw a bunch and you and you want to know the craziest thing. I'm literally in tears thinking about how funny this is. The craziest thing is that years later you end up working on a show together. Not for long. It was like I'm not going to say what job or wear, but like it was an episode of something essentially, and when she walked in the room, I was like, Wow, this is really a moment for me, Like you hospitalized me when I was a small child, what's up? But you can be cool with people much later to your point, your bully became your friend. She and I did some scenes that were awesome on this random job together and then we've never seen each other since. Um but yeah, crazy, Yeah, I think it's it's weird how people can come back together because kids really don't know how I mean they can be or like what they're saying or you know, and so you kind of just gotta forgive. I just really don't want my kid to be the boy. I'm sure I've been the buy in some circumstances and I'm not even aware of it. And it's scary. It would be my nightmare to like eventually have a kid and hear that they're the one being me and other kids they're oh Doyle from that I medicine, nothing like what's not let's just not so what is school for you? Like? What's it like going? Yeah? What's it like going to Catholic school? I mean I loved it like a lot, really yeah, because I never knew anything else and I just and it was a pretty like looking back on it, I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe. During Lent we would go too. We would go to church every single day of the week before school. We'd have to get there like early to go for forty days. Yeah, and I told they forgot, But I really liked. I crave structure. And I think that's why sometimes as an actor, it doesn't totally work for me in some ways because I need I like to keep myself really busy. I just put to myself then. And also when I think of Catholic school, especially high school, I went to Standing Nations in San Francisco, and I just taught us that helping people was the numeral, you know. And during high school, when you sort of start to develop yourself in a totally different way, Catholicism wasn't as you didn't get beat over the head with it. You know. There were people that weren't Catholic that went to my high school. And you can choose to go to Friday morning Mass or not. And our religion classes were more like ethics classes. That's really interesting. I've never heard somebody talk about a religious school experience with that much kind of freedom to explore. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure if I went back now, I would not feel that way. But at the time I loved it. I was the Robbert School pride person. And what do you think, how does that education around service, how does that shape your life as as a kid. Well, I actually had. I played sports, and then I got cut from a basketball team. And that's why. From the basketball team, I mean, Mike mulcaren's at Mike mulcarens, you can answer that question place. Thankach, coach, coach, coach, Mike No. I mean, it was the best thing to ever happen to me, because I wouldn't be an actor if I didn't get cut from the basketball team. It's just what All my siblings were the most athletic and I was not. They maybe they needed to put you on like a wrestling team. Maybe yeah, maybe a boxing team. You know. So basically, then I tried acting, and I think going into college, I was having trouble being like, oh, can I be an actor and still serve people? Like this feels like most selfish thing to do is to I I sort of was choosing between the path of social work or something like that and acting going into college. How long have you been doing theater? In high school at this point, I mean cut from the basketball team and then what And then I did a play at a c T which is like a great local theater, but they happened to be doing a play about volleyball called volley Girls, and so they're like, well, you're a good volleyball player and not an actor, so just come and see what. I went in there and basically did a Chris Farley impression and they were like, I don't know what that was, but like, sure, coming, you can teach them how to play. So I did that, and then a couple of plays in my high school and I knew that I and I started auditioning for colleges and I knew that I wanted to be an actor, but I couldn't give myself the permission because I felt guilty doing something that seemed at the time like such a selfish profession. And now it seems like the opposite of that. What do you mean by that? I just mean like there's a lot of good you can do, and especially with like how the world has changed. I mean, you're a perfect example of this. You have given yourself a huge platform via acting and used it to really do a lot of good. And also from my end, I feel like some of the characters that I play let people see themselves where those characters aren't on TV all the time. And yeah, so I feel very fortunate to be able to like step into those roles and people seem to like appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, representation is a huge, huge deal, and I think about it, and I think in our community we have a lot of conversations about how that looks and how that works, and there is a real reality that if you can't see it, you don't know you can be it. But even past young women of color seeing themselves represented in hidden figures as scientists, or girls seeing themselves represented as political leaders. You know, whether it's in the West Wing or House of Cards or Madam Secretary or whatever. It really matters, I think, in career, but it also matters in identity and to be represented on television as a person, you know, as a single person or a single parent, or a person in the same sex relationship or a transperson. It's like, it's so important that people feel seen, and I think we can lose that. And and now with with so much digital connection, we understand what that means to people because everyone gets to have conversations about it. Yeah, that's interesting. It's all now we're actually hearing voices of viewers more so. And it's also to that point of representation. Now we're getting to the point where it's not just about the struggle. You see that happiness, for instance, with a single parent. You're not just seeing the struggles of being a single parent. You're able to see like the joys and the good and the bad, and it doesn't have to be all about the struggle, which I love. It's like characters who are representing people who have been historically marginalized in society don't just have to play the marginalized person on TV anymore, which is really nice. Yeah. Yeah, So you go to Michigan and you said that you auditioned for a bunch of college theater programs, like, yeah, I got into Michigan early, so I canceled. It ended up coming down to u c l A in Michigan and U c l A had this program that my entire interview for U c l A was I was talking to this woman about this nonprofit I work for Cold Not for Sale, which helps stop human trafficking, and she was like well, we have this separate program that's learning theater and also advocacy work and marrying the two. And so I was choosing between that and this b f A and theater. And actually I had a conversation with the priest. It was in confession on a on a retreat in high school, and he was like, listen, you have to make yourself happy before you can serve other people. So do what you really really want to do, because if you, you know, you'll regret it. And yeah, I do what you want to do. So it's like, okay, So I chose Michigan. I also knew if I was going to be an actor, i'd probably come tell you at some point. So I wanted to experience a different part of the country. And I went to ann Arbor and it was the best four years that it was so fun. I loved it. That's awesome. And so you went straight from ann Arbor onto Graham. Right, Yeah, there's kind of a crazy story there, which I think is just so interesting and I want you to tell it. Okay. I was probably hungover in my Friday morning class. It was it was a screenwriting class, but they had cast it was in the film department, but they had cast actors from the theater department to eventually be in the film. Second semester, so two executives came in as like a guest speakers to give you notes on the scripts. And they happened to be looking for this character called Trouble, and they were casting out of New York, l A. And Chicago and couldn't find people that they wanted. So then they want the full, deep and dirty story. Okay, so this is my younger years. Okay, I want everybody to know that. But I went. They were like, please, do you want to see what it's like to tape an audition to all the girls in the classroom. We're like sure, so we go. The next day we taped this audition and I brought my friend in Connor to read with me. And we're leaving the audition. We're leaving taping session, and he was like, you know what, she's prettier. She's definitely gonna get it. You didn't do that great, so you're not gonna get it, So like let's just have fun and like whatever. And I was like, oh, okay, well you were watching, you know. So we went to my sororities day party and had more than a few drinks and we're like, let's just blow off some steam. Some girl comes out for me at two am and it's like, you need to turn on your phone and I was like, it's not a battery and she's like this softmore in my sorority that I don't know, and she's like plug it in. So run back to the house and plug in my phone. And it's the executive producers being like, you have to book a flight now, and I was like okay, but I'm like not so hammer You're at a college party. Like, yeah, I was in a sorority. I know, trust me. So I like run to my friends. We didn't help me. Someone get me on the internet. Yeah, like uh so my buddies helped me pick me up for the airport. The next morning, I fly to l A. I opened my bag but there's just nothing in there that I could wear to this audition. It was horrible. And then flew to l a audition for all the executive producers Shawn Hayes, which was cool, and then Portland and then I flew back to Michigan, went to school for a week, celebrated my twenty first birthday, and I was living in Portland shooting the show. So crazy, I it's so weird. The timing is so similar. I auditioned for One Tree Hill three weeks after my twenty one birthday, and eight days later I was moving to North Carolina. And it's so crazy to think that at twenty one they let us do anything. I mean, yeah, Like I look back and I'm like, I literally did not know how to be a human. And I moved across the country, was working eighteen hours a day all of a sudden out of nowhere, having just come off of a college schedule where I was writing papers and now I'm making a TV show and I had an apartment and lived alone. Like what it was so crazy? Was it a thing? Yeah, to just like pick up and move to Portland and just be yeah, I think. I Mean, the biggest difference I feel like in those stories for us is that number one, I was coming on it a show where everybody was like ten years older than man. So they number one had like their own lives going on, and number two were like down to teach me and help me, and we're like older siblings as opposed to be I mean, they became my best friends, but like that yours as much scarier. We had everybody's showing one and it's like, oh God, should this actually be a reality show? Like I can't imagine. And obviously I say that with love, like we can call each other that if anyone ever called one of my co workers an idiot, I would kill them. But like we we laugh about it now and and and we'll sit when we were together and talk about how absurd it is that we were just unleashed, we knew nothing, like we were so naive. Yeah. Wow, And then everybody had getting money at that age. I can't. That's crazy to me too. My Coot stars were like, whatever you do, save your money, go buy some you know, giving me that sort of advice. It wasn't let's go a party, it was don't spend your money on party. You know. They were really amazing. Wow. Yeah, I read this article where Taggi p Hensen was talking about how she advised all the young kids on Empire and it's like invest in real estate, don't spend your money by art, like don't buy clothes, don't And I'm like, man, where were these people for us? Where were these people? But that's so cool. So what what was it like jumping into that show? Who who was Trouble? Like, what was her vibe? Trouble was like kind of hilarious. A homeless teen that could see monsters but didn't know. I thought she was crazy. So she comes into this world and they're like, oh no, you're actually a grim. You're like me, let me help you and like guide you, which is sort of what was happening on the show. You know, behind the scenes was these people were like this is a Mark hit it. You know, I knew how to act, but I didn't know how to act on TV. So yeah, I mean it's crazy. I was thinking about Grim recently because of this new job in them on and I was like asking the camera something and I was like, wow, it's so crazy that I know that now, Like then, I'm so aware of how to be on a set and help everyone out and communicate because it is a bunch of moving pieces and if you get on the train it runs a lot smoother. But also no one can ask you to get on the train because you're an actor. Do you know this mentality and set there like I don't want you to have to worry about camera because you're acting, and I'm like, I know, but I also want this acting to be on on this on every single take. I wanted to have the opportunity to It's an interesting thing because it has to be an ultimately free experience. But it's so technical, and when you think about it, it's sort of like holding a chair. You know, there are basic chairs that are fine and they do their job, but then there are chairs that are pieces of art, but a chair still has to hold up a body, so they have to be technically an architecturally sound, and then they can be as artistic as possible within the medium of holding a person up off the ground. And I think about what we do that way, and and yeah, oh, I remember when they when they gave me my first mark, And like, for listeners who are listening to us talk about this going, what are they talking about? A mark is literally they put essentially like a t shape of tape on the floor, neon tape, and every actor has a color of tape, so it basically becomes like the dance floor choreography of the whole scene. And the first time they gave me a mark, I was like, what do I do with this? You know? The camera syst It was like, your toes have to hit on either side of that. I was like, okay, gotta gotta cut it. And now I can literally glance at a mark out of the corner of my eye and hit it, not looking walking backwards. Yeah, I understand exactly where the camera's moving. How to save time. Oh if we do this and we move from this place into this place on that camera will save two setups and let's you know, let's get the day going. And you become an expert at technicality and you almost don't even realize it. And it's so cool, Yeah, because it gets so much more free once you know everything and you can do it because you're not worried about that stuff anymore because it's second nature. Yeah, this is this is the first job I've really felt that on. That's like where I'm like, I was like, oh, wow, I know I can see that they can that. I need to wait for her to cross this before I give her the line. You know. Yeah, it's interesting and you really do. That's how you become such a team player, because look, we've all probably worked with people who have no interest in doing the technical side any favors. They're just like I have to be able to do what's in the moment. But I find that that's so much more rare. And I love working with people who I want to make the work as good as possible, but who also know how to do favors to the you know, like even in some of our scenes and easy, like when people see two human beings having like a love scene together, it's so you have to be so in it and so conscious of where the camera is, and like, I don't think anybody who watches it would think that you and I were marking where the cameras were. Oh my gosh, you have to people talk about I forget who I was talking to about sex scenes, but they're not sexy. Everybody thinks sex scenes are like hot and steamy and like that's how actors fall in love with each other. But it's like really technical and kind of like scary, and you're like, I hope I'm staying outside of the modesty things, and it's actually not. It's like the most unnatural sex you've ever had, not actually sex, but you know, yeah, well, it's also a funny thing to sit down with somebody and be like, okay, let's go through the basics, how are we going to do this, what are we gonna do? Who's going to touch you? Where is it going to go? What are you comfortable with? Our conversations? Scene was so funny and you just have to do there's no there's weirdly like you have to throw all your modesty out the window, but you also double down on respect and you figure out how to take care of your coworker. Yeah, but it's like people are like, oh my god, it's so hot, and you're like, literally, I'm trying to move my hair out of the way so that the camera gets their shot and there's somebody talking to us, but like that gets taken out in the edit and you don't know, and it's just so funny. It's so so, so so funny. So before we get into that show, moving through and learning and kind of cutting your teeth on Graham, did that start to inform for you as an actor what kind of characters you wanted to play, what you wanted to do in TV? You know what, what sort of your evolution as an artist while you're getting to grow up on a TV show. I sort of wanted to do theater. I was planning on moving to Chicago and hopefully being like a stepping wolf sort of apprentice, and then hopefully eventually living in a suburb of Chicago and being an actor, like a theater actor. And then this just went the opposite way. I signed with someone and moved to l A right after that, and then would fly back and forth for from Portland. So like when I first came to l A after Graham, I started to realize that all of my assets and theater were not assets in the TV industry. My deep voice, my height, how I handled myself confidently in a room. They would a lot of people would just be like, oh, she's just like I mean. I would go in to an audition to play a woman who's addicted to drugs and has like a dark past, and I'd go in and I do the audition. I'd come out and my manager, Big the casting director thinks you're just like a little rough, And I'm like, how do you play that character and not be rough? Like what am I supposed to go in and be like, hey, guys and then just switch into this performance. Yeah. So I didn't necessarily understand that, like I have to please people in the room, and I didn't I just have never done that. I'll like connect with people in the room, but I'm not there to make you like me. I'm here to like you know, make you like my take on this character. But it can't be mean to someone. I'm always like such a hym anyway, No, I get it. I have that too. I think auditioning is the weirdest process in the world. I'm like, listen, if you want to get to know me and see if I'm a cool coworker, let's go have a drink or like, go grab a launch or coffee or something. The room is not my place to to your point, to please you and to show you my hang out attitude. I'm just here to do the job. And if I'm in the headspace of the job, I don't want to come out of it to have a chat. Right. It's weird, right, Yeah. If the purpose for me the audition should be to see if I can act, the addition should not be, you know, to see if I can if I can hold a conversation with you, like I'm very intelligent to all the conversation. Ye please come on, hello, listen to this podcast. You know what I'm saying. You're like, listen, I'm clearly very charming. Ask anyone has ever worked for me. But so, so you're going back and forth, You're you're doing all of this, and what's what's like coming your way, what's what's showing up for you? In general? I'm just curious about how playing that character, what that begins, because that starts to sort of set a tone for you, obviously in people's awareness of you. So what starts to happen? Yeah, I mean, let's see my first film. My first job after that was two days on a movie and I'll tell you what I say. And I worked two days with this amazing female director and I was immediately like, oh, wow, this is my person. How how do I work with this person? Because she's so incredible? And that woman's name is margin Lewis Ryan and she is the showrunner of the out Word Generation QUE. So yeah, so that was five years ago. You knew then. I just knew that. I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to be you or want to work with you or what because she was just so on top of it, and she spoke. She also comes from the theater background, so the shorthand right away was there, and she just like saw me and got me, and I think to see like a woman and a queer woman in her position, I was just like, yeah, yeah, let's can I get you a coffee? I'll be your assistant. We ended up working together a couple more times, and I did a play with her last year, which was amazing Tidy Salzman, who's one of the best actors I've ever worked with. And then now we're doing that's so cool. And then yeah, and so obviously between im an L word easy comes along. And what I think is so fun is that when I people ask about the show and they're so curious about how it's shot, and it seems so natural, and when I tell people that there's no script, everybody freaks out. The reaction is always what are you talking about? You know? And and to talk about how Joe writes an outline for every episode so we know exactly what scenes were shooting. Although you and I added a scene for our characters, which I'm stoked made it, but you know, there's this outline and then there are scene objectives. So he'll write a little bit of dialogue and say, you know, I essentially need you to tell her this, and she needs to tell you that, but it's really just us talking talking. Yeah, And it's also like hope to god you get along with the damn person. Like, if you guys have zero chemistry, even friendship chemistry, you're kind of screwed. Yeah, it would be horrible. We did really well considering we hate each other, so well considering the band of my existence. No, I think immediately when I met you, I was so nervous because Joe Joe I had been working on that episode a little bit, because we'll call each other in between seasons and be like, hey, what's going on in your life? And I'll be like this, this and this, and he's like, okay, that's interesting because you could just connect to it more. So. The first season was just like I came on and was like, hey, sure, whatever you want me to do. Like I and was so nervous and thought it was like funny improv, you know, like I was coming from like a UCB sort of thing. And he was like, stop doing that. It's not funny and it's not good. He would never say that, but I was like okay, and then he sort of started to get it anyway. By season three called me. He was like, oh, you know, I'm thinking this person should maybe be your love interest. And I was like, oh my god, who is it was? He was like, secually that works on the show in Chicago. Um, and I was like, okay, he's like Sophia Bush and I was like an actress that works on a show in Chicago. I was like, are you kidding me? Such a fan? Oh my god, wait, I'm hearing this for the first time. I'm like, blessing you that. Yeah, no, of course no. I like definitely watched John Tucker Must Die so many times and One Tree Hill and I was just like, yeah, a fan of yours. So it's always nerve racking to meet someone that you're gonna work with that you know but like can't. It's like this weird like whatever. And I was like, start of freaking out walk into the restaurant to meet you, Andra, and you just opened your arms and gave me a huge hug, and all my worries just diticipated. You just have this effect on people where you're just like, at least on me, where you just put me at ease and immediately I feel like the best, most confident version of myself. Thanks. I mean, you did the same for me because I have to say, as such a fan of the show, coming into a space that I respect with people who I think are killing it and having it be such a different medium and just going okay, so literally there's no script. Okay, okay, okay. Cool. I I was nervous too, and I think something that was really helpful for me in playing Alexandria. You know, Joe and I named her that because we're both obsessed with this documentary filmmaker named Alexandria Bomback. Literally she is my brain crush, and she you guys should honestly look up her film. She made this incredible movie called Frame by Frame about the ap journalists, the photojournalists who were working in Afghanistan shooting photos of the conflict while the Taliban had outlawed photography. I mean literally putting their lives at risk. These people are heroes. The documentary is insane. And then she did a doc called On Her Shoulders about Nadia Muraud, who won the Nobel Peace Prize this year. She's an activist who has gone out advocating for the z D community that has been essentially enslaved and is suffering a genocide at the hands of isis. I mean, like, Alexandria is the realist of the real when it comes to using your art to affect change. And so thanks to our show and to Joe, I got to sit on the phone with her for two hours and talk to her about every film festival I've ever been to where I've seen her movies. So I did not play it as cool as you. I fangirled her so hard. Um. But we talked so much about the process of making docs and what the travel looks like in the schedules, and and she was so generous with her time and vulnerability to really talk to me about what a toll it takes. So at least going into our first scenes where you know, my character Alex is talking to your character Joe and giving you, you know, editing notes, I was like, oh, I know, now I'm in, like I have all the technical terms for all of this. And and a little bit of even directing on the last couple of seasons of One Tree Hill was helpful because I would edit my episodes. So the combo of understanding and editing Bay and then understanding all of the stuff from Alexandria gave me things to talk about. But I still was like, I don't know how to do this? Is it good? And you were so great. You were like, you're killing it. This is amazing. I was like, but this is your first season. This is bullshit, my first season. I was like, dude, um um, I'm not sure if can I say that. He was like, yeah, the cameras rolling, please speak like you were so good and knowledgeable. You just come from a place. You're so well spoken in your life that I think when the cameras turned on, it really just flowed naturally. And I mean I was sweating. I felt like it was a sort of like baptism and fire. But it was great, And yeah, I don't know, it's such a cool It's such a cool experience to be able to do that. And I think Joe is so smart, and you guys were so incredibly welcoming, you know, you and Kirsy and Jazz, who had been doing these episodes together every season, and we spent two days of social time together. And I mean, what I love is I don't know how to small talk for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet, Like people don't understand what I do with my Instagram. I think now people are understanding from the podcast that I love to have deep conversations. I don't get the other thing. I'm not like, Hey, how are you? I don't, I don't know. And you guys jumped in and I mean within four hours, like we were trading war stories from life. Yeah. God, that was like right off the bat, and that doesn't happen with everybody, but when you really click with people, and I don't know, I think that that gave us spaces to go in some of the conversations, like when we're at the bar, Joe gave us real beer, and I mean he just let the camera roll that that conversation I thought was that it was there we go where it is conversation. Maybe even weren't. Yeah, he let the camera roll for twenty five minutes and we just talked about life and I think the only objectives we'd had a conversation when we were all hanging out over dinner and I said something along the lines of my observation about how when someone needs alone time, it's not time away from you, it's just time alone. And Joe was like that thing you said, I want you to talk to her about that, but figure it out in terms of this breakup and make sure you talk to her about your ex girlfriend so she knows you're gay too. And I was like, that's all my direction for Okay, here we got. It's so scary, but it's so fun. Yeah, it is. It's so freeing, and that's what makes it so scary, I think. And I would say Easy has had the biggest impact on who I am as an actor than any other job, because it really is like, well, just play like you have to just be really free. And that's the thing, including in auditions. You can't try to guess what the other people want. You hear that a lot, but you also just have to show them what you would bring to the character, like a lot of it is you in any given circumstances. So Easy sort of taught me that because watching and I was like, oh, the most interesting parts are and you're released of what you think is going to be a perfect thing. Yeah, and not having dialogue to stick to when when you do have people who are good and who are really capable of showing up and being vulnerable even in the face of that feeling scary. Not having dialogue I think is so freeing because you're not subconsciously married to where the scene is going to go, so you really get to see it unfold. And Yeah, it has certainly changed the way that I think about certain things. I was on. I was away with some friends recently and my buddy Max is also an actor, and he was getting ready for this really important audition and I was like, let's run the scene, let's break it down, and he was like, what are you talking about. I was like, dude, just this is like I don't love getting ready for my own auditions, but this is my spiritual gift. Like, let's do this. And we pulled this scene apart. And and I saw so many things in opportunities where he had to go because I know him and I know what he could bring to it. And I saw him in a barbecue actually yesterday, and he was like, they're bringing me into test on it, actually, kid, And I was like, yes. And I think about that stuff differently since our working experience, too, which is so fun. Yeah. I also love that I love shaping for people. I love like coaching people for auditions. Yeah, do you think I might be better at that than then actual actor because it allows us all the play with none of the pressure. When I can help someone else get ready for an audition. I'm like, oh my god, I'm so good at my job. I just the pressure is so overwhelming and has such an effect on like your entire day. If you really want something, it's terrible. Okay, So that I want to talk to you about because in in the history of our friendship, I know how much you wanted the L word. We talked so much about this. When it came up, I was like, it's your show. It's meant to be I fucking know it. I was like, I'm having a witchy moment. This belonged to you. No one else will get this. And you were like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And you wanted it. And there's obviously a lot of pressure on when you really want something and you know something's right for you. So how did you surmount the pressure and go in and get your dream job? Oh? Man? First of all, it was something that I could not stop talking about. It was on my mind all of the time. It was like consuming all of my thoughts and I just couldn't stop word vomiting about how much I wanted it. And then it finally got to the day I went in and I just I know the casting director pretty well so and he John McClary, is a genius. He is the best casting corector in Los Angeles in my mind. And he makes you feel so comfortable to do whatever you want to do and give you as much as many opportunities as you want to do them. And I just went in and I had a freaking blast. I mean, this character is that's what you have to do. You really can't think. She's not a thinker. So her Jim Finley, she's a former professional athlete and not basketball, volleyball, not volleyball. I don't think I could say, Okay, okay, cool, cool, don't tell us I love a secret, Okay, leave them morning more. You know that? Yeah, exactly, But she basically she did that in your entire life. And now it's just like as zero structure. It's a ball of fun, never stops moving. And I think if she slows down at all, she'll have to confront some stuff, some shame. She grew up really religious, and so that's a huge thing. That's that's a huge theme. That's kind of an interesting parallel. Yeah, oh yeah, I mean she grew up Catholic. I think there's a lot of differences, but there's a lot of similarities. I think you're gonna you're gonna see the show they go, wow, that's an elevation ad version of Jacqueline in a lot of ways, storyline is not really the same. You know, my parents are really supportive of who I am, and I don't. I don't know, Finley, I don't know. I don't know how much I can say. I like it. It's a teaser. And why why is it called generation Q? What is the L word? Generation que? Well, I think you know the original L word. There's a letter l Q. I think this time around it's a lot more inclusive. It's more queer. It's more queer, I think, and not even like in characters. There's more queer characters and not just you know, gay women, says women. But they're also you know, Marge is really interesting, interested in casting transactors as CIS characters, and she's trying to go above and beyond and be even more progressive than having a show that is inclusive and seeing faces that represent more people. She's trying to push push the need a little bit further. That's super cool. Oh yeah, she's a badass. Everyone is so awesome. I'm so happy to be um. You know in this club. I would have as obsessed with the show. It's like a dream come true. Yeah, it's the coolest when you talk about the similarities between you and Thinly, you know, we talked about your upbringing, but we didn't really get into the sort of identity stuff as a kid. What is it like growing up in Catholic school and being a queer kid. I just didn't even like allow myself to think that, Like I truly I think looking back, maybe no, not even I just didn't realize sort of it was just not I didn't allow it to come into my head at all until college. Really, and I think looking back in high school, oh, maybe that girl that like I wanted to be friends with but would get really hot around, Like maybe you should have, like you know, looked into that. But I'm sort of happy I didn't because it was like a protective instinct. I think, like, oh, it still gives me the he the thought of potentially coming out in high school, like I didn't even there wasn't a struggle and that for me at all, But it was certainly really scary in college and then all that was happening, and I got this job, and it felt like, oh God, I'm not gonna be accepted by the industry. I'm not gonna have as much opportunity if I come out. And it used to like every interview I would sit down and I just get like just so hot throughout my entire testment, Like, oh my god, what if they asked me for my sexuality. I don't want to, like tom, but I don't want to lie, and I don't even know yet. I'm really like a lot of it was like I'm just confused, Like I don't even know how to talk about it or what label to use, because I mean, I feel like gayer than I am straight, But none of my relationships with men, even in my adulthood, have felt fraudulent at all, So I don't know. Am I buy? I don't feel like that. You know, I think I'll end up with a woman. But how do you say that and not steal somebody's label or or have have to like go back on it in the future. I was really scared about that. So, yeah, I'm somewhere on that bloody spectrum. It would be so nice if instead of having to have such a specific label. It could just be like, what's your number like on the Kinsey scale, Yeah, like a strong five. Yeah, you're like, I'm a five. I'm like mom was strong too, you know, perfect great, like meat somewhere in the middle of perfect. I mean our characters met in the middle. It was a dream. But yeah, it's like why not, you know, but I get it. I would imagine when whenever where you fall is farther from what has been stereotyped as quote normal or average or whatever, You're like, what's this going to mean? You know, the more the more descriptors you have to put on who you are that could be used against you, it's scary, and like it's already scary to be a woman, like that's used against us all the time. It's also kind of great in a lot of ways. I mean, your new show is going to be great. I can't wait. So good. And then what like with your parents and family, Like they all just seem like the coolest people. Yeah, they're great. You eventually talk to them about it through like like red hot anxiety. I like, check my parents out to dinner, and I mean, to be honest, they took me out to dinner I was sitting there and you know, trying to work up the courage to be like, Okay, you know, this is what's going on in my life. And my mom started talking about like work and something my dad and I were both really interested in. My dad gets his wallet and gets his and we kind of like are finishing up and walking out the door, and my dad gets up and I was like, wait. He's like, but I think, can you just sit down for a second? And uh he sat back down, and I was thinking, so, um, you know this is going on. This is I'm gonna start like dating women. And I hope you guys you know our chill and my It was really cute. My mom was just like love is love, Love is love, and she's such a sweetheart, and she sort of knew I had talked to her previously about a little bit. My dad was like, oh, I don't really care who you married, just as long as you don't settle. Just married some when you really love, because like otherwise it's gonna be super hard to raise a family if you don't really really love the person, Like I got so lucky with your mom, So just make sure you don't at all not I don't really care. And I was like, oh sick. Great. Yeah, so it's been nice and yeah, they all met my girlfriend recently and it was it was great that I love it. My Yeah, my parents, My parents are pretty cool. They called me after they watched our episode and my mom was like steam me and she was like, do you want to talk about anything. I'm like, no, Mom, relaxed. We sold it. We we sold it. I was like, no, I'm I'm just looking to like date a guy who's not an idiot, and there's a lot of idiots around, so like, give me some time. But yeah, I was very very cute and and it was actually kind of sweet because my dad, you know, my dad's an artist, he's a photographer. You were in the industry for forty years. I grew up in a very queer, diverse, amazing community of artists here in l A. And you know, in the eighties and the nineties, Like, it was a real moment. And my dad was so sweet. He was like, I just think this would have been so meaningful. I think about so many of my friends who were so mistreated by their families and people who really struggled to just be who they are and love who they love, and I'm really glad the kids have shows like the ones you guys are making. And I was like, it was like I literally have tears of mind, Like it was so sweet and it's and it's true. It's like, you know, I think about Easy winning glad Awards, like it's a big deal to just let people explore who they are. Yeah, and I'm excited for the new gig to do it. Yeah. I think it'll be a little bit different, which I think is great. I think when you have a bunch of queer characters, you have more opportunity, like we're talking about before, exploring not just the struggle with the queer identity and not to like bogged down and psychological, but just like queer lives and successful ones and happy ones, and you know what comes out of that just life, just life with relationships and ups and downs and joy and silliness and all the things. These characters are, especially the gen Q characters, they're extremely approachable. Like, I think people will see themselves in Finlay, and I don't know if that will be a totally positive thing, you know, it'll be like I think there will be a mirror held up a little bit and really exciting way. If that makes sense, I love that. That's super cool. Well, I have a final question for you. You know, I think from the outside, for so many people who are doing cool things in the world, it can look like you have everything figure your doubt ye, But I in all my experience, everyone is working on something or trying to figure something out. And I'm curious at this stage, you know, you've it feels like you're really on like the steady climb, and it's so special as your friend to watch, and I'm curious what it feels like a work in progress in the midst of all this great change to you right now? I think, right now my relationships are a work in progress. I think a lot of my friendships, when you start to get really busy, like with the show or in a relationship, I think sometimes you forget what grounds you a little bit, and you forget to pump love, end time and energy into your friendships when really, at the end of the day, those those are what has have kept you afloat for the for me at least the last ten years. So I think just time management and giving love there, and also I'm working on listening. I think on this set particularly, I have so many incredible people to learn from, and I think I already know they're going to change my life, and I just want to be mindful and listen and learn. That's so cool, all right? What's he working for? Gus? Oh my god? Um do you don't want to answer? Is that like a finale? No? Not at all. I mean, it's it's constantly evolving, you know. I think right now for me, it's it's figuring out. I'm pretty clear on what I want, and what I realize is I've my entire adult life has been about making so much compromise for work or having to move somewhere I don't want to move, or being away or whatever. So I've I've been trained to make the best of any situation because I like to be happy, or at least try to be. And I think what I'm working on right now is trying to figure out when something that's close to what I want but not what I want shows up, to not settle for it, or to not bend my desire or my standards to accommodate for something that maybe isn't all the way there yet, to to not get so invested in the potential of something, because as an optimist, that's very easy for me to see potential and go yeah, that's gonna work. Yeah, rather than really saying no, no, only what is big enough or right enough deserves to be in my space, whether that's from a relationship, whether that's from my next project. You know, not taking or settling for what's close, but really holding steadfast to what I deserve to be right. Wow. Okay, I have one more question. Okay, bring it. I I have asked you this before, but I think a law of people my age that are my friends. I love you so much and compliment you through me. I always forget to tell you I'm sorry, but really concrete things, not just like oh I like love her on Instagram. It's really like, wow, that Mueller video was really helpful for me to see. I'm so happy she did that, and really concrete things. I think you're amazing and an inspiration. But my question is for all of us, like you know, sort of starting out, the younger people in their twenties, how do we start and advocacy and activism and where should we start and helping people? Because I feel like you've done a great job and it feels really big and really scary sometimes, So what do you think? It is big and it is scary. I think it's really important to know that you're never gonna have it figured out and there's never going to be like the place that you arrive and then it's done. It's like we don't do the Women's Marching and everything changes. It requires consistency, and I think that in especially I think about you guys. I think about like ten years ago being being now like if I were twenty six. You guys have grown up with the Internet in a different way, like I've been part of its evolution. It's happened to me in real time, like this is just the world that you live in. And so I think about how subconsciously that can affect our expectation that things turn over very quickly. The news cycle always changes, Instagram always refreshes whatever. But advocacy isn't like this immediately sexy thing. It requires more of a long commitment. But the thing that excites me about it, and the reason I actually do think it's the most inspiring place to be, is it it's a relay. We're all in this together, we're running it together. I'll hand you the baton, you'll hand me the baton. Sometimes I take all the batons because I'm good at you know, saying like I got it, I got it, Sure I can do it. Um. But I think that the thing that is the most important is to go, oh, this is going to require some time, but it's gonna be the best time I've ever invested, and then start helping the helpers. I think everybody needs to figure out. I talked to there's this great author Glenn and Doyle, and we talk about this a lot of sacred rage, where like the thing that literally makes you enraged, like children dying in cages makes me enraged, injustice makes me enraged. Abuse against the queer community, abuse against communities of color, like make me enraged. Women being assaulted at work makes me enraged. That is sacred rage. That is like my Jane of arc shit, where I'm like, I'm gonna put on a breastplate and pick up a sword and like go in and identify those things and then look at who's doing the work. You know, even when you think about something like Instagram, it's a social media tool for pictures, fine, but it can also be the window into advocacy. Follow advocates, allow change makers. Follow people who are leaders in communities of color and in communities of women and in the trans community. Start curating not only your feed, but start telling the algorithm what you're looking for, so that you're explore page is full of advocacy and not like lip gloss. That's possible. And you know, when you have questions, look to people who you think are doing it right. So if one of your friends says that, then now this video that I did with those other people about the true things in the Moller Report is helpful. Follow now this start looking at the start looking at the organizations that they work with. Follow those organizations. Figure out who's doing cool ship in your town. Like b l D p w R is my friend Kendrick Samson's organization that's based here in l A. They are incredible. Like I'll take anybody to a meeting any time, um, you know, I mean, yeah, you come to conferences with me. By the way, like people listening, I just have to say the level of nursery things that I'll call Jacqueline and be like, do you want to go to this institute and She's like yes, And we literally put on suits and like go to these things with notebooks and take notes and I'm like, I feel so seen. I love you. You're my sister for life. It's really important to just start to show up, and also to start getting into the nitty gritty, like read the articles. Don't just read the headlines, you know, get in there. And if you can commit ten to fifteen minutes a day to research, your whole life is going to change. It doesn't have to be that big. And the last thing that is the most important thing that I need you and all of your friends and all of like the homies who you know for in my world are like in the younger end of my friends spectrum and your peer group. I need you guys to vote, like I need you to vote because young people don't vote like old people, and old people are voting out of spite, and young people are voting out of hope. We're voting for the world we want to create, and we need to be out voting the people who are going to die and leave us with the problems they created. Yeah, I actually don't think. I think like we don't have to worry as much about like thirties. I think we need to worry about the kids that aren't in college, you know, like just out of college starting their job and don't feeling the effects yet. But I will. I'll be out there with you. I know. It's so fun. So find your rage. Find your rage, follow up advocacy groups. Yeah, sacred rage, help the helpers, because there are people who know how to do this better than us. Like I was. I was in New York recently and this is the craziest thing I'm ever going to say out loud, but I got to spend some time with Gloria Steinham, who then invited me to her home and then I got to spend more time with her, and literally I was like, if I get hit by a bus when I leave here, it's honestly going to be fine. Like I'm ready, it's fine. And I had so many questions for her because I learned from all of the learning she's already done. But she said the coolest thing to me. She was like, listen, if I died tomorrow, you would figure out how to do everything I've already done. And I was like, okay, And it reminded me that as much as we need to look and we have to create like we're doing, we have to create these talking circles that move through generations and that move through different communities to make sure we know how to advocate for each other. If we dedicate ourselves, were already on the path and we're going to make a difference. So it doesn't have to feel so insurmountable or scary that it paralyzes you into not acting. Just show up, show up, shut up, listen to the wise ones, and then you become wise. Great. Yeah, Okay, I love you the most. This show is executive produced by me, Sophia Bush and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Cate Linley. Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Carillion Anatomies