Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talk to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Hey, guys, I am so thrilled for all of you to hear today's episode. I'm sitting down with one of my favorite public servants and political activists, and he also happens to be the former foreign policy director for the GOP. There's a lot of people out there who wouldn't think Evan McMullan and I would be friends or be people who reach out to each other to talk about what's going on in the political spectrum, but we are, and we do. He also happens to be a former CIA operations officer and is currently the executive director of Stand Up Republic, which serves to protect the United States constitution ship. He is fascinating, utterly fascinating, and I'm just so thrilled to introduce you all to him today. We're going to talk about when he knew he wanted to be in the CIA, how he made that happen, what he learned from running for president independently in the state of our country right now, how we can all defend it, and so much more enjoy this. It's special. You have such a I think, in today's climate, to stand against a system which seems as though logically we should be able to observe it and say this doesn't fit in any version of our political system, in any version of either party. You've come out as this incredibly dynamic and strong leader who talks about what's right rather than what side to take, which I'm so grateful for. And I want to get into stand up Republic and I want to get into your career. Were but I want to go back to the beginning because one of the things I'm always so curious about with people who I think are fantastic leaders or super interesting experts is were you were You? Were you like a tiny version of this man when you were a boy? How did you grow up? And were you always interested in sort of serious things? Who? Who was Evan as a child? Mm hmm interesting. Wow, that's a that's a first of all, thank you for all this very nice and generous comments. Well, it's true, I mean, and I should tell people because they're probably curious how you and I have wound up, you know, sitting across from each other but we connected on on Twitter because we're out there trying to spread information about what's happening, you know, the crisis of the constitution we find ourselves in. And I thought, like, this guy seems really cool. And I don't I don't remember which of us messaged each other first, but you've been so to generous resource and you know, boost of confidence that the world's not going to end, which I really appreciate. Um, So everybody listening, that's that's how we connected. The Internet isn't all bad. Sometimes you sometimes you find friends in unlikely places absent I I totally agree, and I think this moment, there are silver linings to this moment, this national moment, and I think one of them is finding new friends, often across the political spectrum, across the political aisle, that still agree that one plus one equals too and that we're you know, inherently equal and inherently free, and that we should have a government that reflects that, and that there is goodness in the world, and that you know, there is you know, right and wrong in virtue and these basic ideas and finding people who you know, you know, you may not have spoken too much before because they weren't part of your political vibe, or they lived on the other side of the country or came from a different walk of life. But now you realize, oh my goodness, we have so much in common, far more in common than we do indifference. That's that's a tremendous silver lining and I think an important response or part of the response and part of the cure to what ails the country right now. So that happened for us, and it's happened for others, and and and it's an encouraging reality, I think. So. Yeah, it definitely is one of the things that makes me feel hopeful. Yeah, so were you were you befriending everybody in school? Were you? Because you grew up in a in a rural area outside Washington. Yeah, that's right, well outside of Seattle, Seattle, Washington, that's right. So it was. It was a mostly rural area. You know, people had small or modestly sized farms. There were no ranches in the area per se really, but you know, people had horses and pikins and sheep and things like that. We had we had that too, you know, Sir mix a lot though lived down the streets, so that was strange. Yeah, exactly. He lived like a fourth fourth of the mile just down the road. But otherwise it was sort of this like real and he had garages for all his cars and all of that, and we'd see him zooming by on the country road past our place all the time. It's so weird. Yeah, But aside from that, it was sort of this pretty quiet, you know, small rural, mostly rural place and about thirty minutes outside of Seattle and Tacoma if you went the other way. Um, but yeah, you know, we you know, we were a sort of lower middle income family. You know, we never went hungry or anything like that, but at the end of the month we were sort of out of food and waiting for the paycheck the kid and you know didn't you know, didn't turn on the heat in the winter because we couldn't afford that, so we wore winter coats inside and until we got a wood burning stove, and you know, then during the summer we would spend a lot of time collecting wood chips at you know, palette making companies and trucking them home to storing them in our barns so we could burn them during the winter to stay warm. So it was i mean, other people struggled much more than we did. I don't mean to paint a picture of you know. It wasn't destitute or anything by any means, but you know, we struggled financially. There was risk of losing the home a lot. I used to it. I was the oldest child. I remember hearing my parents talk about how we might lose our home, and I thought, in my little kid brain, I thought, well, how do we lose the home? I mean, first of all, it's big enough that it would be hard to lose. It's right here or the other side of me. Wonder does someone going to take it from us? How is that possible? How could someone take our home? Um? So there was that sort of heaviness growing up that a lot of people experience tenfold or more to what I experienced, but was part of my upbringing, um learning how to work really hard. Also, you know, there were some there were formative experiences growing up watching my parents. I think my first sort of activist roots happened one day when my I was with my father and he was gassing up our Volkswagen van, which is what we drove. It was an old blue and white Volkswagen van. And we were gassing it up, and we walked into the convenience store to pay or whatever, and my dad noticed that there were a bunch of you know, there was a bunch of porn magazines right up front on the counter, no cover on them, just sort of right there in front where candy normally is. That's what was there. And as a kid, I was seeing it, and uh, I remember my dad, you know, who was not a wealthy man. He was a young professional with four kids and and you know, didn't have a lot of influence you'd think, but I remember him saying to the to the proprietor there, you know, this stuff needs to be back there and with covers on it, and if it isn't, next time i'm here, I won't I won't be back. So that was his simple for something something that he thought was very important. He was worried about my seeing that content as a kid. And I remember I thought, they're not going to do that, Dad, like they know, why would they listen to you. You're a guy with the Volkswagen van who has no influence here. Uh. Well, a week or a month later, we were back in that convenience store and sure enough, all that stuff was back behind the register with covers on it, and and I just there was a lesson learned as a kid. You know that, you know, you could make a difference by simply taking a stand, and especially if you were speaking truth or making sense that you know, even people who are considered weak or less influential all by most standards, by wealth, by you know, whatever it is, education can make a difference. And I think that, especially in retrospect, that had a massive impact on the way I perceived the world and the difference I could make in it over time. That's amazing. I think anything that equalizes people's voices or reminds you that really every voice has merit because that idea that some people are more powerful than others, or some people's voices mad or more, that's a social construct that we've built. And you know, if we look at history as we understand it, constructs were built by those in power to keep them in power. In a way, we're fighting a version of that currently in our in our country. And it's a special thing when someone shows you that your voice can have merit too, And you know, I think about, yeah, I wouldn't want, you know, my eventual son or daughter exposed to unexplained hyper sexualized images of men or women. They're detrimental to both. When you start setting these expectations of that's what you're supposed to be, you know, you're taking this sort of intimacy and empathy and communication and consent out of those conversations with kids, and the ramifications of those things can be really serious. And I think a lot of people probably would have thought it is what it is. But I love that even in that moment, your dad was like, does it have to be right? I don't think it has to be Yeah, absolutely, and I agree, and you know, whatever, you know, whatever the the issue is, whatever you're acting on. I mean, I'm always a big advocate for people, you know, be an advocate for what you believe, and participate in the in the competition of ideas, even if there especially if I don't agree, you know, advocate for what you believe. And that's what makes this country what it is, is that we have the luxury and the freedom to to have this competition of ideas and people should be activists for what they care about. And if if we all did that, and if we all at the same time listen to each other. We're gonna be much better off for doing that. You know, I've been thinking a lot about how and and writing a little bit about how I think we're in denial as a country and your denial is and so I did a little bit of reading about denial, and you know, it's it's a coping mechanism, you know it. In some cases, we need to be in denial to deal with some of the challenges we may face in our personal lives when they hit, because if we don't have a little bit of denial in the beginning, we all of a sudden can't function perhaps and then right and then it's even more dangerous because we're not we can't even function in our normal lives without a little denial. But eventually, you know, we need to get out of that stage so that we can take action to you know, get treatment for our cancer, whatever it is. And my concern is that we're not getting out of that stage fast enough, and we need to get out of that stage and realize what's going on. For example, that you know, we need to be able to say, you know, clear, in a clear eyed way, was not a free and fair election. We had foreign interference that most likely was decisive in the elections outcome. It was a very very very narrow outcome, with the president losing the popular vote and winning the electoral College by just seventy votes in exactly the right places, exactly, by the way, the same places that Trump's campaign chairman Paul Manafort told the Russians they should focus. And I would just love to say for listeners to understand the severity of what you're saying, because most people listening know what I think, and maybe they don't quite know what you think. I hope now they will. But you're saying this to me as the former chief policy director of the House Republican Conference, as a former senior advisor on national security issues for the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, as a former CIA agent. I mean this is you have a storied and dedicated career of service to this country, and you speak about these issues as a Republican, as a person who has been a I would assume lifelong member of the conservative political party in this country, and and so I just want to reiterate how important it is for us, regardless of what we think, you know, states should be doing with their money, when we really look at the larger umbrella of America. There are just things that, no matter what side you sort of sway towards, we we should be agreeing on as fact because they are facts. Yeah. Absolutely, instances of collusion are fact, right, exactly one equals to that's right, that's right, and you you know you're you're right. I I do consider myself a conservative, although not in the way that it's defined at this point. Well, I imagine you feel like you've lost the party used to be. Yeah, exactly. And and just as a point of clarification, you know, I have until sixteen, I had only ever supported or donated or volunteered or worked for worked with Republicans. I've been a registered independent for as long as I can remember. I still am. But I was a you know, a senior policy person for for the House Republicans and and so so. Yes, but um, but I I say these things not as you know, a representative of any of that, as much as I am just an American And that comes first. And I think it is so important that we recognize is and and sort of own what happened in sixteen. And it's you know, I say these things as somebody who comes from the right side of the political spectrum, the conservative side. But you know, there are a lot of people on the left two who won't say these things because they feel like, oh, I'll be you know, people will say I'm partisan or i'm you know, this is just a partisan response, and that's sort of the you know, the baggage of our polarization in this country now. But we can't allow that to prevent us from speaking truth. But the reason why it's so important to acknowledge what happened in is not because we need to relive and relitigate that over and over. It's because we need to be prepared for And I am very concerned that given that we did not have a fully free and fair election in now, the chances in twenty that that that that will happen again, or that something like it will happen again are much greater, especially because those who were involved with the Trump campaign for the most part, and Trump himself and the Russians have not been held accountable, and so now the incentives are even um are even greater for them to do what they did in perhaps in a different way, but to do something they got off scott free. And by the way, if you're the Russians, you're worried about the Democrats coming to power, taking the White House, because if you're not, not, all Russians are coming back, you know, to hold you accounting. They will hold you accountable because they have an incentive to do it and because they're you know, they're acting in the interests of the country, and so acting in the interests of the country is an incredibly important thing. To take a bet on it that it is required of any public servant in this country to act in the interests of this country, to protect this country. It's citizens, it's elections, it's democracy, it's constitution, and we are losing hold on those things. You wrote a you wrote an OpEd inten about Trump's threat to the constitution. Did you see it getting this bad? Did you know that this is how how bad it was going to get and how quickly? Yeah, I did think this was going to happen, which is why you know why I've been active in the way I have since. Absolutely this is what I thought would happen. The only thing that I didn't the two things that I didn't fully predict. Number one, I didn't think that Trump would so quickly make a concerted, systematic attack on truth. I thought that that would happen, but I thought it would happen in him as he realized over time they needed to do attack truth in order to remain unaccountable to the people. But he knew quickly that that's what he needed to He's done that his whole career exactly. So that was some naivete, naivete on my part. I also thought that, you know, I I also I did think that, for example, Republicans would not stand up to Trump and the way they thought they would. Uh. They they thought privately that what would happen is that even if Trump were elected, they would be able to own him rather than him owning them. And I thought, you know, you're fooling yourselves. And that was when I was the policy director for excuse me, for the House Republicans, and I was part of, you know, these discussions in which that was the idea that will you know, we'll be able to control him. We know more, we've been at this for longer. He's a he's a newbie, he's he's a novice to the whole governance thing. We'll be able to control him, not vice versa. I thought that was entirely naive. If you couldn't stand up to him, then then you weren't going to stand up to him as president of the United States. But I did think even then there would be some Republicans who would stand up to the president elected Republicans, I want to clarify. And now there are virtually none there. You know, there there are one or two at times, but they're virtually none. And I and so in that case, it's it's worse than I thought. It's a wild thing for me as a person who have been deeply entrenched in the political system for as long as I can remember. I think because I've understood that it's part of our civic duty. And maybe that's because my dad is an immigrant, and I remember helping him study for his citizenship test when I was a kid, and my mother's mother came through Ellis Island to pursue the American dream, you know. So I'm either a first or a second generation American, depending on which parent you can't And to see as a kid who always idealized the Constitution, and who studied journalism and political science and college and and who just really believes in the system here and loves this country to see career servants flipped to the dark side so quickly. I'm so dumbfounded by how in toxic haating that proximal power is to people who like you. I had hoped, naively, I realized, would stick to what's right at the sort of fundamental pillar level of the country and the constitution. And they're all just dropping like lies. And it's it's a wild thing, you know, it's a wild thing to watch an attorney for the United States argue that children don't deserve soap and toothbrush. And did you see the ship captain who he was a captive of Somali pirates for a while. I have to find his name, and he said, the Somali pirates gave me toothpaste and soap. Let's let's just have a real frank conversation about who we are being in the world today. And it's a it's a it's just so out there, and this idea that people aren't saying anything so that they can stay in the good graces of an authoritarian. I don't even want to say leader. I don't I don't even know what the word, you know, figure, it's it's a really it's disheartening. I'm really inspired by there's folks we both follow on Twitter who are doing so much advocacy or attempting to do advocacy. But it's hard to make noise when everything is noisy, because everything's insane. But they're doing all of this work around election security and really making public what's going on and how these voting machines state to state are changing, and they're running on these insecure modems, and they're not having paper print outs, and and they're making it very difficult for us to have records for the upcoming election. And now there are these groundswell groups and states advocating that we go back, that we go back to paper ballots, that we go back to hand marked paper ballots, which are really the only secure way to vote in a in a culture in which everything to it a can can be hacked. So I'm curious what you think. You know, I know the Pave act is is trying to get past and make sure that we go back two paper ballots, And I'm curious what you think of that and how we can advocate in nonpartisan ways for secure elections. And I'm also curious what you think about rank choice voting. Yeah, well, I'm very passionate about that. You know, look, I think paper, paper ballots, a paper trail for all votes cast is absolutely vital. It's a vital reform we need. Um. I would also say that, you know, it's possible to have all of that and have sort of the hacking and the manipulation happening on the voter rolls of voter file. So you show up to vote and you know you're registered to vote, you voted recently, you know you're registered, you checked before, you know, maybe you checked some months ago. But all of a sudden you're told, oh, no, you can't vote because your address doesn't match the one that's on your voter I D Card or your your driver's license, so you can't vote here. Things like that. So you it's not even messing with the vote talies, it's messing with people's ability to actually vote. I mean, we saw it with the Stacy Abrams race from Georgia. That was insane. That's right, that was the insane thing to witness. Just that's that's right. All of those people purged from the roles, all of those polling places closed. They really were so blatant making sure she wouldn't win because they knew she was going to And what accountability is there? And you know the the election fraud in in North Carolina against UM where the where the Republican candidate Mark Harris, with the knowledge of the state and national party in the general election, engaged in an election fraud in ballot fraud against a Democratic candidate Dan McCready was a very good candidate. UM. So we lived in North Carolina for nine years. I was I was hot under the collar about that. Yeah, well it's it's, you know, something that we all need to fight against, no whether no matter what party we're you know, we belong to this. Look, this is about our ability to choose our own leaders and to hold them accountable. This is this is everything. And if if you're you know, a member of one party and you think, oh, well, this is going to help us win, so I guess I'll allow it to happen, We'll wake up because it will happen against you the next time. And this is as individuals, I mean we you know are you know, the power of the people has to come first before you know, the interests of our parties and our part as an interest on ran choice it's a relief to have people reminding us that that's true. Yeah, I wish more would. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's what we're fighting for on ring choice voting. You know, for the listeners, I think many have probably heard of it, many perhaps have not, but you know, it's it's simply a way for for us to go into the ballot box, the voting booth, and to their go into the voting booth. We don't go into the palot box escope, No, none of us are that small and just rank our vote to say who we who we prefer, you know, number one, two, three, four or five, uh, and more fully express our preferences. And it's you know, it's a it's a it's a change to our ballots, but it's one that's supported by most machines now updated machines in software. Um. But it just allows voters to fully express their preferences. But it can have a tremendously positive impact on our country. How well. If you and I are are if we're running against each other, you know we are. You know, if voters can say that they like you number one in me number two, if that's a possibility, then I must much less likely to sling mud at you, But more importantly, I'm much more likely to find common ground with you, to to highlight the areas where we agree and yes, we disagree on some things, and those that differentiation is important. It's a race, after all. But just as if not more important, is that common ground. And that's what we need in this country. We need to change the incentives for our leaders so that they're encouraged and rewarded for finding common ground that does exist even with people on on the other side of the political spectrum. I mean, I there was a recent issue I forgot exactly what it was. I think it was maybe a lobbying issue or something where Ted cruzh the Republican senator from Texas, found common ground with aoc On on some issue and they agreed on Twitter to work together on on a bill to to make some reforms if they can find common ground, for Heaven's sakes, and I I believe that there's common ground on even the most divisive issues in our country, the ones that we're all afraid to touch. I I reject that. I think that there's more more that unites us than divides us. Ranked choice voting, you know, change that making that change to our ballots allows us, empowers everyone, allows us to more fully express our preferences, but then incentivizes our leaders to reflect that common ground and to build on it. And that's what we need right now. This political this partisan polarization is making us ungovernable. We we can't govern ourselves because of it. Foreign adversaries are looking at us and saying, these people, these Americans are so divided that all we have to go in there, and all we have to do is go in there and stoke that a little bit. Well, we're cannibalizing our own And the irony is that, much like and television entertainment, the more extreme the event, the higher the ratings. So now our politicians are behaving like extremists. They're going, oh, well, if I say the outlandish thing, I'll be in the paper for the next three days. That's not what our politicians are supposed to do. They're supposed to be voices of reason, and to your point, they're supposed to govern for everyone. They're supposed to find common ground work towards common good and and I think rank choice voting would be so great for us because it would force them back to that We're not getting up from this table until everyone agrees on something, and that's what we need. You know. I remember even in the last election hearing you know, the adage of like, well, what I want to have a beer with that person. I'm like, I don't need to want to have a beer with my president. I need the president to be the president. I'll have beers with my friends. You know. You you you need for some some sort of sanity to come back into this right and you don't get that without changing incentives, you know, And I wish you to your point earlier. I wish that we could just count on people to just sort of uphold those pillars of democracy that we were talking about before. But we can't just leave that anymore. To hope, you know, we have to actually change the We have to incentivize it, because right now, the wrong things are incentivized. And that's why hope for morality or whatever we want to call it is winning out, because bad behavior is rewarded. And you know, think about it, it's like we are raising a nation together. You know, America is a child that we're all responsible for, a young one in the history of the world. And you would never leave a kid to its own worst devices. You know. Imagine if if you were you know, you adopt a puppy and you're meant to train your animal to be a member of your family in society and not be a complete psychopath who knocks tables over and steals other people's food. Imagine if you only rewarded that dog's bad behavior like good luck, you're going to have a feral animal on your hands. And I kind of like, oh my god, is America feral puppy right now? What's happening? Will you? We we've we've we've made the incentive such that that that's how we're getting. So you ran in as an independent, Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was Like? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, it was for me, it was only three months. It was sort of this emergency moonshot campaign to give conservatives who weren't gonna, you know, didn't want to vote for Trump and and weren't going to vote for a Democrat to vote for someone else, and to hopefully convince some people who were thinking about voting for Trump to to to go another way, you know, especially if they weren't gonna and some people. Some people voted Democrat, they were okay with that, but there were certain Republicans who just weren't going to do that. And so you know, we made a case. I in my campaign, we tried to make a case that that President Trump, now President Trump, was dangerous to the country. That you know, yes, you've got you know, we've got differences on policy issues with the Democrats, that's normal, but the president is somebody who genuinely threatens the country. And you know, I think I say that now, and looking back on that, I think people thought that that was sort of a campaign slogan, you know that you know, maybe I didn't really mean it. It's sort of maybe I meant it like you know, Marco Rubio meant it when he said the president is a con or Trump is a con man. Well, it turns out that now Marco Rubio is, you know, a big supporter of the president and campaigning for his re election. In that that's not how I meant it. I actually meant it. Yeah, when I said, look, the president presents a danger to Trump at the time Canada, Trump presents a danger of the country, I really meant it, and I still mean it. It's not a campaign slogan. I think some people were surprised that when he was elected and I didn't abandon that message. I didn't change, I didn't fall in line. They sort of thought, what's the matter with you? Because yeah, right when you said that, you were just saying that as as a campaign line of attack. I mean, you didn't really meant mean that. You said it during a campaign, And no, I mean, that's that's not actually the case. I said because I meant I said it because I meant it, And that's that's the kind of person and leader I want to be as somebody who someone who speaks the truth even when it's unpopular, and so that you know, so I meant it? Is that? Does that come from your childhood? Because I know we jumped straight into sort of current policy stuff, but I did read, and I love this. I read that you were elected sixth grade class president at Lake Elements. My other campaign and that was man with a Plan. And one of your childhood friends remembers that your platform then was to clean up a nearby park, and and classmates of yours in elementary school talk about how you were always serious and concerned and and looking at the larger picture, and clearly that tendency has followed you through your life. You're you're very willing to look at the acts and and talk about you know, unity and bipartisanship. Now, where did that come from? Where does the sixth grader become the man with a plan? Well, that slogan, that that slogan came That was slogan I think came from my mother, to be honest, but I liked it, and I said that I approved that. I am that's right. Yeah, you know, yeah, from a young age. And I'm thinking about where this, where this came from. And it may have come from, you know, you know what I learned from my my parents and some of the stories I mentioned earlier. But you know, I'm thinking, now where did this come from? And I'm not exactly sure, but ever since I was young, I did have a very strong sense for for justice that you know, for some reason, I don't know why, I mean, I don't know exactly why, but a sense that things should be just and that and then also I've long been passionate about about equality, that we are equal as human beings. And I remember as a kid, when I was young, I wanted to be a filmmaker, and we would make films, you know, my brother and friends and stuff, and you know, it was a lot of fun, and that's what I wanted to do for a living until I saw a film called Three Days of the Condor, which was an old Robert Redford spide film film, still one of the best made. But you know, that captured my attention and imagination and I went on to want to work for the CIA, and there's that whole you know thing. But but another movie that I I saw that really influenced me as a kid was a movie that is also a book called The Power of One. And if you've never seen it, if listeners have never seen it, I strongly recommend reading the book or watching the movie. But it's about a young boy who fights apartheid in South Africa. And I say that and I get choked up even thinking and talking about it. I've probably watched that movie, you know, fifty times, um, and and read the book. And you know that had a huge impact on me, just um. Both the substance of it that that we are inherently equal, um. And I want to come back to to to another source of that in a in a moment, But then this idea that that you can make a difference, you know, and and that is that's a movie. But but I saw, you know, I saw my dad make a difference in in a small way, and I you know, that film had a great impact on me. And another piece of it is is the following. Uh. You know, I was raised in in a Mormon family, in a in a family that belongs you know, a family that belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and so we would go to church every Sunday, and that it was a big part of our lives. And you know, I was taught to pray as a young boy, and and and I embraced that and it became my own thing where you know, I would pray, you know, with my family when we would we would pray before dinner or sometimes at night before we went to bed. We'd pray together. Um, but I would not as often as I should have, but make say personal prayers before I went to bed or in the morning. And and there were other times when, you know, things were not always easy. When I was a kid. There were some tough times and I remember, you know, feeling very you know, hopeless at times as a kid about you know, certain things that were happening and challenges we faced or that I faced. Was that some of the you know, financial stress you were talking about some of us that more sort of family dynamic or community it was, you know, financial stress, it was, you know, sometimes family dynamics it was. There were a lot there were different things, but but a lot of it is sort of what I've you know, explained just that financial stress and and you know, some other things as well. But I you know, there were moments when you know, I would pray to be to to heavenly Father, who you know, I believed knew who I was, knew who we all were, and I believed loved us all including me, and I was, you know, I was. I remember being eight years old and and sort of saying prayers in these moments where I felt hopeless. And I have to say, in those moments, repeatedly and without fail, I felt comforted. And and again I get emotional. This is gratitude that that I'm feeling as I tell you the story. But I felt in those moments confirmation that you know, that that heavenly Father knew who I was, and that Heavenly Father loved me and that everything was gonna be okay. And the reason why I tell that story now is because I deduced even as a kid, Well, if Heavenly Father knows me and loves me and cares about me and is willing to respond in this moment to me, well, then he must be willing to do that to everyone. And and if that's the case, if if we're equal in that sense, then that's it. We're equal, you know, that's right. And so that had a super strong impact on me. And so you know, later in life, when I would see movies like the Power of One or see evidence of injustice or inequality, it always sort of it always it didn't sit well with me. But that's not the right way it it um you know, it angered me. Actually, that's there's only one thing that really angers me. It's when the powerful mistreat the weak. And so through life when I would see that, when I would see the powerful mistreating or abusing the weak, uh, it would it would really inspire action on my part. Me too. My my friend Glenn and Doyle calls that sacred rage, and I talk a lot about that that I feel in the same way that you do, I'm having such a I'm I'm expressing some gratitude to you because it's a it's a mirror moment of thanks that you're willing to share. Because I really think that some of us were lucky enough to see the truth young and then to be willing to fight for it. And similarly, you know, and I'm always so interested how people virtuality has affected the way they see the world because I grew up in a family with a mom who was raised Italian Catholic and a dad who's Agnostic, and then the other sort of extended half of my family is all Jewish, so I grew up going going to church, not going to church, thinking of nature as church, and going to synagogue and loving synagogue, and then realizing that people would get really heated when they would hear that I celebrated to holidays of theoretically opposing religions, But I was kind of like, holidays are the best we have, Hanka, and then we have Christmas, and then it's New Years, and you know, it was it was like a never ending party of family, food and togetherness. And my studies of those spaces yielded that basically the window dressing is different, but everyone says the same thing, which is love, thy neighbor, and and lift up those who are have have been dealt cards to be beneath you in some resource level of life. And and because I also was encouraged to believe it, don't believe it. Decide what feels true for you. I realized I found it in nature, and I realized things like the Fibonacci sequence and all of these shapes and histories in nature that repeat and repeat and repeat, and the beauty of evolution and how the planet has developed. And then I got excited and started studying Eastern philosophy and Hindu philosophy and started trans transgental meditation and and for me learning in all of these spaces, again just reiterates it's love. It's love, it's love, and lift people, uplift people, uplift people up. And so you speak in terms of heavenly father, I speak in terms of the universe. I don't know what to call it. So to me, it's like the universe loves us so much. And and where my sacred rage comes from is that injustice feels like an affront to the gift of the universe. Yeah, and to truth. Yes, like we've been handed this opportunity to advocate for our community, for our village. We we evolved in these villages of humans, and to me, it seems only logical that as time goes on and the millennia continue, our villages are meant to become one big village. And when we when we miss it, and when we repeat the mistakes of the past, and when someone like a George Taka is talking about what it was like to be in an internment camp, which is an American concentration camp that didn't have a death chamber, that's all that that is. You know, people are upset with aoc for using the term, and I think it's important to use the term because we have to be historically accurate. And and the fact that he in his old age is alive and seeing this happen again, and seeing children being abused, and and that we are acting as though their children aren't our children, it seems so wild to me. And it does feel like it goes against the sacred And I think that's where the sacred rage can come from it because it's a fuel for humanity. And I guess that leads me to be curious, do you still is the Mormon Church still important in your life? Do you have a different kind of spirituality? Do you look where? Do you find that in your adult life? Yeah? Well, well it is, you know, and it's um. You know, I've I like to say that I'm forty three years old now, and I like to say, don't look a day over twenties. Thanks, you know, I've I've lived a lot of life in in in my forty plus years, you know, whether it's sort of my experience as a kid or like you know, then working for the central intelligence agents. So many questions. Yeah, and and just you know, I've traveled around. I've been to every corner of the planet, it seems, and they're always new places to go. And I've got a list. But you have to get that extension thing in your passport. Um, No, I just order extra thick passports. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um. Or sometimes you can get a second passport, so sometimes I've had. It's a little known thing. You can get it done, you know. If you are traveling, for example, if you're gonna travel to travel to Israel, you used to be able to get two passports because Arab countries wouldn't let you in if you've been to Israel, so you can get two passports. I don't know if that's still a thing, but anyway, sorry, what was the question? Um, I don't even what did I ask you? I was asked about my current faith. Yeah, I was asking how, how in in the shape of your life now does your do you have a spiritual practice? I? I do? And I was sort of my long wind up was just I was just saying that I've lived a lot of life in my forty plus three years, and uh, and I've I've seen a lot, and I've experienced a lot and um, and and as I've done that, I've sort of I've I've seen uh and learned a lot and and and you might now be expecting me to say and so now you know my faith is very different. Yes, it has matured, and it's you know, there was a time in my life where I was very a very black and white sort of person, and now I see more grays and and that comes from understanding, you know, the human condition and being a part of that, experiencing it for myself and seeing it in others. But I I will say that, you know, I do believe that it is still a part of my faith is still a part of my life, a significant part of my life. I have not always been a perfect practitioner of my faith, and but I noticed in my life that that when I am, when I do the things that I believe that I should do, which include, you know, helping others, you know, treating others, loving others, um, you know, UM, respecting myself UM, trying to stay in tune with with God, trying to you know, pray to help me stay in tune, trying to study the scriptures. When I do those things, I feel filled with with you know, more gratitude and kindness to others, more charity for others. Charity in the sense that the love the love of others, love for others, not in the sort of charitable giving sense, but in in that former sense. And I find that it it helps me to lead a better, more giving, more loving, and and more guided life, more inspired life. I find it my relationship to God. When I'm respecting it pays all kinds of dividends, whether they be spiritual or health or even professional. That um, I feel, you know, when I'm in tune in this way, when I'm when I'm filled with that love for others when I'm filled with gratitude for everything I have in life, everything I've experienced, the good and the bad. Some of that I brought upon myself, you know, good or bad. I am a better person. I am more patient, I feel more inspiration for my work. I find new ways to help people, new opportunities to help people seem to arise. Uh. And so yes, it's it's My faith is still very important to me. And you know, I I learn a lot from studying, you know, the life of Jesus Christ and to try trying to actually live like he lived. And it pains me a great deal to see people in this country today, not that I'm any example of perfection, because I'm not, but completely abusing others in the name of Christ and pretty devastated. It's it's terrible, and it's been interesting for me. I I find myself just thinking, like yes to so many of the things that you've just said. One of one of the things I'm most grateful for has been my experiences of touching worship in so many different places and experiencing that reminder to step outside of myself, think about a bird's eye view, think about what it would look like to look down on the world and see everyone the same. And you know, you talked about traveling in the Middle East, and I remember having to get the extra sheet in my passport because I was on a trip visiting all of the sacred sites through Israel, and the Ramote Crater was this incredibly mystical experience for me. And you know, not a religious space, but I told you, nature feels like it feels like a house of worship to me. And I I left there, and I traveled to Jordan, and then I traveled to Turkey. And I've been through parts of the Middle East many times and and I find such beauty and all of it. And and I remember being in Turkey and sitting in Hagia Sophia and people were like, it's your mosque, and you know, praying there with people. And I attend mosque here in l A with my friend Mata, and people are people always wonder why, you know, you know, some of a friend cracked to joke, was like, don't you have enough religious things to do, like your family? And and because of all the curiosity I had as a kid that was encouraged, I spent my whole senior year in high school taking courses on Islamic studies. And it's been such an interesting thing because at that point you talk about that that there are people in this country who claim that they're Christian. I don't. I can't do it without the air quotes, who mistreat children and the poor and and don't see the irony. And then those are often the people that I wind up speaking to as you know, a proximal advocate for a culture that I have been experiencing and loved since I was seventeen. Who you know, there's been this demonization of Islam and the Islamophobia being encouraged in this country, and this xenophobia being encouraged in this country, and I feel so privileged to have a perspective on so many different communities, and you know, to me, it seems so obvious, like how how could you think that someone who would literally defy the sort of sacredness of their religion to be an extremist. They don't have anything to do with the religion, just like you can't claim that if you're willing to abuse children, you you don't get to call yourself a Christian, you know, And I wonder, I guess I'm just sort of having this moment where I'm like, God, I wonder where, where the where the dissonance came from? How how we kind of where and wherever. Whether you believe in something specific there's a specific book that you worship, or or you're agnostic and you just think something going on in the world that feels a little magical sometimes, you know, or maybe you're an atheist. I don't know, but I wonder how we can kind of divest from kindness and claim that we believe in that we believe in it, right, Yeah, Yeah, It's it's such a tough question. And I grapple with that too, especially because you know, I feel like I've come from from the sort of the Christian world and that community, and to to see what's happening in parts of it and a great deal of it in the United States is really challenging. And and all I can say, you know, I will say, it's of course faith in religion. It's it's such a charged but also very personal issue. I really, you know, I hate to talk about or I'm very cautious about talking about, you know, other people's faith in their practice because you never really know sort of how people but but I but I do think it's important in these moments to to speak some truth as as I'm observing it. And I would ask the question if, if you, as a Christian or any faith that encourages these sort of foundational you know, the foundational love of all human beings which you refer to earlier, if if you are then okay with caging children of any kind, any kind, or people, especially vulnerable people who are seeking refuge. One, I think we need to ask the question, did that person, even before those situations came up, did they actually ever embrace what they said? They embraced what I'm saying. Is is it a change so much? Or had they not actually ever embraced in the Christian sense? Did you ever actually study, no, and embrace christ and Christianity. If you're now advocating for children and for children to be held in cages, you know, did you were you ever actually a Christian a disciple of Christ. I think that's a question we have to ask and more and we need to ask ourselves if if you're in a place now where you think that's okay, where you're defending that, defending someone who does that, where were you before that? What did you who were you before that? What are your beliefs? Really? God, that's really interesting and I and it leads me to wonder. And I know you mentioned the film as an inspiration, but how how does a kid who grows up the way that you did, and and who who went on a mission trip to Brazil, how do you then end up in the CIA. I'm just like, it's so wild because I think there's such beauty in the way that we actually, as complex beings, combine where we come from and our families and our culture and our history and our faith and all of these things, and and this complexity that is you lad you to start working for the government in a very serious way while you were still in college, right, So were you just like a super student? You know? Did you get recruited or did you go to them? How does that happen? Because that that feels that stuff feel to me like like my industry. It feels like Hollywood. I'm like, this is like a movie, and I need to understand. You know, like you were you were in Brazil doing service and then suddenly you're like working at the CIA. What's going on? Yeah? Right? Like some guy in a trench coach show up at your door. You know, how does it work? Well, I'll tell you that, but I will say, you know, so people do wonder about that. I get it. You know, how can you go from being a missionary where you're helping people build homes and clean things up and you're teaching people, in my case, about Jesus Christ. How can you go do that and then go on to work for an organization like the CIA UM. But you know, I've done different things in life, you know. But you know, I was a full time although volunteer refugee resettlement officer for the U N and Jordan's for a time. I took a year I was doing study abroad in Israel and Jordan's when I when I was late in my college experience and I was studying Arabic and also did that work. So I would work with refugees who had come from Syria and Iraq in North Africa and help them find a new home, working with a variety of embassies in a mont Jordan's And I did that on behalf of the you went, but anyway I didn't. So I've done that. Yes, I was a missionary. I worked for the CIA. I was also, you know, a banker for an investment banker for Goldman Sachs, and that was after this, that was after the CIA. You were working for the CIA part time in college. Yes, And I'll come back to that, but I just want to make the bigger point that I do believe that there's there's a time and a season for things in life, and um, we're multifaceted. This idea that we're meant to fit in a box, it's so bizarre, that's right, And certainly in the political world people want to put you in a box constantly. The theme that runs through all of that is is just that I I've always felt compelled to make a difference, and throughout my adolescent you know, late adolescent and an adult life, I've mostly done that and I'm grateful for the opportunities that I've had to do it. Now. The exception has been my time as a banker. Now, I'm not one who attacks investment bankers. You know, I learned a lot as an investment banker, things that are important to know about our economies work. But most of my career I've spent working on issues that I thought needed work, you know, that needed somebody to address them, and and that's always been what's motivated me. I have to do work that I care about that I think is going to make a positive difference. So that's that's the theme that's run through through my my professional life. But as far as how I ended up working at the CIA, I, uh, you know, when I when I was young, probably fourteen years old, you know, my dad brought home movies from Blockbuster used to rent Blockbuster movies at the time, and bluster, yeah, it was great. Um, and you know, that's what our entertainment was. We didn't have a lot of money, so that's what we did. We cooked popcorn and watched movies. He brought home three days of the condor. I watched it. You know, of course it's you know, you know, a story about sort of a rogue cell inside the CIA, which is what often ci A movies are about, even though it's sort of you know, fantastic. But but that, at least on that immature level, captured my attention and I started reading every book I could about the CIA, and uh and read really and quite a number of books in the in the subsequent couple of years about the organization. Uh. And then one summer when I was I think about sixteen years old. I decided that I was going to reach out and see what kind of opportunities there were at the agency. I was ready, I thought, So I dialed for one one, because that's how you did it at the time, to get a number. There was no Internet. Couldn't google a number, you know. So I dialed for one, and I asked for Langley, Virginia, which is the fictitious place where CIA headquarters exists. They couldn't connect me because they said that wasn't a place. Finally I figured out that it was McClean, Virginia, where the organization actually existed. I was ultimately patched through to the agency, and then old man picked up the phone and he said hello, and I said hello, Is this the CIA? And he said who are you calling for? Sir? And I said, is this the CIA? And he said, sir, who are you calling for? And I got chills in that moment, realizing that indeed I was talking to the CIA, and of course they wouldn't tell me it was the CIA. Um And so I got my wits about me finally and said, I remembered that there was a recruitment center so I said, could I speak with the recruitment center and he said very well, and he connected me to a receptionist and and she answered the phone and said recruitment center. And I started to talk to her, and eventually, in our brief conversation, I mentioned to her that I had a brown belt in taekwondo, and I asked her if that would make me more competitive, and she started laughing, and she said how old are you? And I said, I'm sixteen or whatever it was. She laughed some more and she said, call back when you're older, and so I said, and she was good. She was good about it. So I said fine, hung off the phone and and I waited a couple of weeks, and I was indeed older, and I called for one one again, was patched through, got the you know, the operator, then got the recruitment center. Then when I got to the receptionist to the recruitment center, I asked to speak with a recruitment officer and was connected to someone who gave me a name which I'm sure it wasn't their true name, but i'll you know, not mentioned it here, and and that person uh and I would would be in contact for the next few years as I went through high school, finished high school, you know, did a little bit of college, and went on my mission. Uh, he told me, you know, he gave me advice about whether to join the military or not. I was thinking about joining the Marines, and you know, he gave me advice about that. He you know, told me not to carry his name in number with him while I was in Brazil on my mission, because you know, he knew that would be a bad idea. And that was great advice because I wasn't there to work for the agency. It was there to volunteer for my church. And the long story short is I got back from my mission, returned to school, and reconnected with the agency, went through a hiring process where they flew me out. I mean, you know, I'm just a sophomore at this point, and they're flying me out to d C a couple of times to be interviewed and to talk to shrinks and and this is their co op program. Yeah, students to work while they're in college. That's right, So I would do a semester. What what ended up happening is I, you know, got through the the interview, the application process. They polygraphed polygraphed me all of this, which for a kid, I mean I was in my early twenties the time. I had taken two years to go to Brazil, so I was a little bit older, but I was still young. But anyway, they ended up hiring me into the co op program, which was a program that I believe still exists, I don't know for sure. That allows you to do a semester of work and then at at headquarters and then go back to school and then alternate. So that's what I did. I went back and forth between the agency's headquarters in school for the rest of my college experience, and it was an incredible experience. And I started out on the analytical side as a student because that's the only they wouldn't allow students into the operational side of the stuff of sensitive information on whatnot. Well we were handling yeah, I mean on the analytical side. I was still handling sensitive information, but it was more like I would read the reports of the operatives the intelligence and less like there you know, information about how they did their work which was sensitive. There there their their ways of of operation. Anyway, that's changed. I think they eventually did let students into that but I had known the whole time that I wanted to be on the operational side. So as soon as I graduated from college, I went through a process, you know, they took me and I went into training right at nine eleven was happening, and then the rest is history. And so how long then were you in the CIA. I was an employee from May of I think till August of two. Wow, gosh, that's a long time. What can you tell us about it? Because I because I know there's probably so much you can't talk about. I don't know if there's something that you worked on that's now declassified that you can sort of walk us through or what it's like. I feel like I'm I'm about to be on the other end of Like I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. It's like, how do you talk to people about? Yeah, so actually, there's a lot more that I can talk about than can it. I would always say that the stuff that I can't talk about is stuff that you you you wouldn't really care to know. You know, you know, the the names of people who I worked with, either foreigners or Americans. You know, there is some stuff some you know, some tactics, some methods that we use that that are of interest of course that you know that we protect, that I'll protect that, I'm committed to protecting that I need to protect. But there's a lot out there about sort of you know, the day to day and an operations officer, officers life or an operative which is what the media would call us. That is that that I can talk about. And you know, basically what what my job was was to was to convince foreign government officials and members of terrorist organizations and others to to to basically help us achieve our goals. And so in the case of you know, let's say, you know, a North Korean or Iranian government official, I would be trying to convince them to spy on behalf of the US government and to work secretly on our behalf under the direction of the CIA. How do you get in front of one such official to even begin this conversation. Well, you have a cover. First of all, you're operating undercover, and that cover gives you so you have passports with fake names on them. Um, maybe yeah, I'm I'm I'm not sure what I can say that. I'm so excited. So you have a cover and are there people assisting you in that cover role in getting in front of those officials. Yes, covers can be very um, very well developed, or they can be very thin. If you need to cover to last for a year or two years or three years or four years or five years, better be really well developed and very well protected and back up if you need to cover to last for an hour. And that's another that's a situation that exists, that I was in a lot too. Um then that the cover doesn't have to be so so well developed. It can be much thinner, but it serves its purpose for an hour. And so I had all all of those things. Um. It means challenging you. You know you you you need to get used to becoming another person. I mean you, you know it's it's acting really, I mean you. You really have to internalize that you are another person. If you do it well, you internalize that you're another person. Or even better, if you can you draw on threads of yourself that are yourself, but that aren't what people know of you or what they see when they look at you in normal life, but that you know exist. You pull those out of you and you you can become what looks like a different person. You have to find the truth in it. Does your time serving as an advisor on national security issues for the House Committee on Foreign Affairs? Does are there things that you learned during that time period that that help you speak to all of this now? And what was it like doing that Because you went from a career in the CIA into investment banking and then you came back in as this advisor and as a policy director. What did what did that look like? And how do how does that experience shape your view of today? That's a great question, and I actually just realized I want to get into that question I asked you. But something that I want to ask you. I guess I get so used to having to pretend to be someone else because I do that for a living at work. But when you're doing it in your real life and your work in your life bleed over and you're living in foreign countries and you're working undercover, what is that experience like? Who can you tell in your life, in your real life, your home life, who can you tell what you do? What can you share with them? And and does the cover story does that create blurred lines with your own life or what? What does that do as to you as a person. Yeah, so, you know, thanks for asking. I mean, it's it's a great question. Look, it becomes your life. It depends on the kind of cover it is, right, I mean, if it's a one hour cover, then you know, your friends don't never know you were in that cover. If it's a five year cover, ten year cover, then because you're utilizing different covers for different moments. But there are some covers that will last quite a long time. That is who you are at that point. If you're in this cover for you know, let's call it, you know, a month plus, that is your life. And and then that can go on for years in some cases. And so it is who you you must become. It's who you are now. You may get to continue to be yourself in those situations. In some situations you may not be actually yourself. And maybe that's sort of I don't mean for that to be I mean that you may be I may be Evan and now I'm doing X. This is my job. I'm a shoe salesman, you know. Or it may be that I'm a completely different person. And that's how I'll say that. So and that either one of those things can go on for for a long long time. So how do you keep a tether to home? Or do you so? In some cases and in some cases, if you're a completely if you become a completely different person, then you are you rarely calling your rarely calling home. If ever, if you are going to make contact with home, then that you do it in very careful ways and very sparingly. And so there there were periods in my service where I would go very long amounts of time without talking to any friends or family. Yeah, and so and and I had my parents knew what I did for a living. My siblings didn't. Um My, I had two or three friends who were very very close, extremely trusted friends who I I told the truth to and and and I needed to because I needed them to help basically help me cover myself. And so they existed. They knew what was going on in my life. And we're able to in our circles of friends help me maintain my cover by backing me up in my cover and by letting me know when there were problems, when somebody was sort of maybe getting curious. And so I had a few friends like that, you know, and who would do other things to help me out. But they were I'm you know, forever grateful for for them and for what they did for me, and in that service, they helped me perform my service to the country. But but it's very hard and it's lonely, to be honest, and there were times when I mean, first of all, I loved my job. It was always exciting. I never for a second had a sense that what I never wondered and what I am and what I'm doing is it important or is it is it needed? There was never a moment, not even a millisecond, when I you know, didn't sleep much during those years, but when I would get out of bed, I was always excited to get after it. And it was always you know, that was always always true. There was never a case where that wasn't true during that time. But it is also lonely. I mean you're pretending to be someone else on one level or another, and um, you know, you start too long for like basic healthy relationships with your family, you know, romantic relationships. I mean there were to try to date as a CIA, an undercover CIA officer is very difficult. I mean I felt like it was impossible to date, having to move and be on location for work all the time, but I was still myself wherever I lived. I can't even imagine. It's like, oh my god, what a crazy because the idea of building a relationship with someone is getting to know someone and building a relationship on trust. And when you can't tell someone who you are, that's right, and and it really is a question of who you are. Because for me, this was a passion. This was something that I had wanted to do for a long time, since I was a kid. I believed in it. Most of my service came after nine eleven, and so you know, there was a lot of important work to be done, and and there was a fire burning in for that work, in that service. And meanwhile, you know, while I was dating, I was telling women I was dating that I did another job, And I tried to make it sound as boring as possible because I didn't want them to ask questions about it, because I didn't want to have to repeatedly lie to them, even though I did, because I had to maintain my cover. And so not only was I lined to them about what I did for a living, but they also never would know what was in here. You know, I'm pointing to my chest, what was burning in there. They didn't know that the real me. And in a couple of cases, I thought, okay, this particular relationship shows promise, So I'm going to share the truth about me. And they gave us that kind of flexibility at the agency. But if you used if you used that license too much, then you would get you you know, you were in trouble. So you couldn't do it too much, but you could exercise your own If you were going to share with a romantic partner, you had to at least after the fact. Yeah, So in a couple of cases I did. I decided, okay, this show's promise. You know, I've wanted to be a father and a husband for a long time, all right in the agency, that service sort of put that on hold for a lot of years, but I still took it seriously and if I could make it happen while he was an agency officer, I was going to try to make it happen. And so there were a couple of times, as I said, where it showed I thought things showed potential. So I decided that I was going to tell my girlfriends the truth, and so you know, I'd sit them down, and I would say, like, look, there's something I need to tell you. And you know, I don't work at X. I work for the Central Intelligence Agency, and I am undercover and I'm having a panic attackt for you, like I'm literally holding the side to my face. I'm so anxious. Yeah, and so and and so what would end up happening, and those conversations were interesting, and the way they went in both cases, We're like this. They at first there was just sort of disbelief, and in some cases I had tried to gradually like break them into the idea that like, there's something else, you know, like I say, I work at Nordstrom selling selling shoes. Covers were never that, but but in reality, there's something else about me, something else that I do trying to help them understand that slowly break them into it, and so, but and even and I think at least one of the cases they basically figured it out. But when I actually told her then she was completely shocked that, oh, my goodness, you know this is reality, right, And so at first there was their sort of intrigue, which is interesting but not sort of what you're going for in those moments. And then and then sort of an appreciation of that expression of truth and reality. But and so you think that, Okay, now we're going to be part of a circle of trust in that moment. But that's actually not how it worked. How it worked was that they would then realized that I'd been lying to them for a long time and that, you know, I still couldn't tell them about my day to day life because there were I was doing classified things on a daily basis, every day, all day long, literally, and so they knew where I worked, in the general contours of my job, but they did not know what I was involved in. So I couldn't come, you know, see them in the evenings and like share my work day with them. And so what I noticed is that because I couldn't share, they stopped sharing, you know, the the unclassified details of their lives and so and when that happens, when you know you you it just spins out of control. So it was and I'd go through like that's a long story, and I apologize for that, but the point is you you make those sacrifices less time with your parents. I mean, you know, my parents have just retired. I I missed a decade of their lives of my siblings, lives of of my friends, lives you give all of that up. There was a time during my service when I literally longed for the ability to just go to a baseball game. I just wanted to sit and watch. Next time, you're I'm a Giants fan, I'm trying to say, but I will still enjoy a Dodger Yeah you did. Listen. It's like I'm an l a sports fan. I lived in Chicago for a long time. I went to black Hawks. Yeah, yeah, I'm with when you move a lot, you have to Also, Dodger dogs are pretty great, so yeah, we Yeah, you feel like you're catching up right, Yeah you do. I mean you're catching up on you know, movies that are part of the fabric of the country. Now you're catching up on all that stuff. So so, yeah, you do make sacrifices. But more than that, I you know, I'll just say that I worked for fore and with incredible people at the Agency, and I wish so much that all Americans could know the Americans I know and and new at the Agency. I mean, these are people who sacrifice immensely. These are people who find a way to get the impossible done. I mean that is something that you know. Uh, I never say I I don't often say it can't be done anymore because, first of all, I mean that that's just not who I am as a person. But but the agency is full of people, especially on the operational side of the house, those who carry out opts, covert operations, full of people who find a way to get it done, and and people who are true patriots. And and you know, yes, mistakes are made, and I feel like I have to say that because you know, some have been made recently in the past decade. But you know, and that's another that's another topic. But I wish that all Americans could know the Americans who I know and and and we all do. Actually, I'll say we all know somebody who's served in the military, um who's made tremendous sacrifices, who or who has been will link to make even greater sacrifices. And I'm talking about loss of life and limb and maybe they didn't have to give that, and maybe that maybe the damages is you know, that they've experienced is as psychological as in the mental health realm. Or maybe they they escaped, you know, unscathed, relatively but they still were willing to give all of that for the country and and most importantly, for for what this country stands for, which is more than you know. As much as the President is his movement would like us to believe that our country is defined by the color of our skin, or by by our religion, or even by the geographic contours of our country. That is not what our founders believed. Our founders believe that what defines us ultimately is our commitment to our values. And that's what the whole country was founded upon, and that's what that's what the Americans I served with are fighting for. You you touch on and I again, I'm so grateful that you've been so publicly open about how you feel about these things. And what is so blatantly you would imagine obvious. You have called out the president for his racism, for his nationalism, his xenophobia, is courting of white supremacists. Do you see those things that blatantly racist, sexist, nationalistic behavior. Do you see that as a threat to our national security? I mean it is a threat to our freedom even a more fundamental level. This is this is a threat to what America is. And you know as soon as you have a leader, you know, I mean, it's look, there's a thing that I like to call the authoritarian playbook, and it it starts, it all starts with this. It all starts with you, as a leader or a figure, an authoritarian figure, deciding that you're going to place yourself above the interests of a country and above the interests of the people. And so once you decide to do that, then that means that you're going to use You're going to pursue office and use your office it should you obtain it, to serve yourself rather than the country. And so then once you make that decision, then you start engaging in real corruption, if you haven't already. And once you start engaging in real corruption, you don't want to be held accountable for it. So you start to attack those who will highlight the fact and make public the fact that you're corrupt. So you go after law enforcement. So then and you go after the press, and and you do that because you don't want to be exposed for for the wrong your wrongdoing. You also start to attract the very to attack the very notion of truth. And you do all that so that you can't be held accountable and once you can't be held accountable because in practical terms, people consider there to be no truth, then you can and and no virtue. Then you can start attacking. You can your attacks get even stronger against the institutions that would hold you accountable. So you start. You can you know, fire senior members of law enforcement. You can put in loyalists into those positions who will protect you. Um, you can invite foreign interference into our country to manipulate the outcomes of our our political systems are elections. Uh, you can do all of that and your your you know, you have carte blanche because you can't. You're not being held accountable because of the steps that you've already taken. This is the path that we are on as a country under President Trump's leadership. And again I hate to use that word leadership, but it's but that's this is the path that we are on. It is a path that other countries have experienced. It is a path that is hard to get off of. And and I and I pray that we will wake up quickly. And I think many of us understand the threat. And again, a majority of Americans are standing up to the president, which encourages me. But I hope that we have a free and fair election in twenty where the voice of the people is truly heard. But I am worried that that may not be the case because that wasn't the case in and the incentives are such that it very well may not be the case in. Things may look a little different. Trump and the Russians and perhaps the Saudis and others do maybe a little bit different. But you know, they're learning to They're evolving, They're evolving. We're not doing much in terms of evolving on this front. They are evolving a lot um. But I'm I'm worried about that. What do you think, again, as a uson who comes from a historically more conservative background, who's willing to call out issues like racism and sexism, which are oddly becoming polarized and also shouldn't be bipartisan problems, what do you think is important for the Conservative Party to do to fight those things, to uplift communities of color in America, to uplift women in America. You know, why, why are we acting as though those are liberal ideas rather than ideas rooted in equality, which should be bipartisan. Yeah, you know, in my You know, when I people ask me do you still consider yourself a conservative? I always say yes. And you know, I've been in the public life now since and haven't changed on that. And for me what conservative conservatives, conservatism has always meant, even before, sort of like the public part of my life has always meant conserving our fundamental values, which are liberty and equality. In my mind, those are the two ideas, the observations that our founders made that yes, they implemented imperfectly, but those are the essential observations um of of of essential, enduring, natural truths that I think are worth conserving. Therefore I'm a conservative. Now, Progressives and liberals might say, well, they may feel okay, well I agree with that, but I'm more interested in advancing them, and I'm interested in advancing them too. But I think it's you know, there have been some studies done where there's actually like a personality difference between people who consider themselves conservatives and liberals. Like conservatives tend to be a little slower to change in general, even in their personal lives. Liberals are progressives are just more open to new things, you know. So I may just be that kind of person where I'm just you know, I'm a little maybe a slower mover on change, you know, in my own personal life. And I but you know, I do you know, I'm not entirely sort of like that. I don't mean to give that impression, but I do like to you know, always be progressing as a human being. But but I will say that that's why I'm a conservative, because I think these things have to be preserved and protected but also advanced. And you know, you asked, you know, what should the Republican Party do? What would a conservative party do? Well, first of all, embrace those values on a philosophical level. I don't think that's any longer the case. And I feel a little bit naive and in a sense that you know, I always thought we actually believed in these things, you know, in the on the Republican side, that you know, we did that we believe that all human beings were equal, that we believe that we were inherently free and all of this, you know. And I think that there are some less elected leaders, but more you know, other you know, anti Trump Republicans and Conservatives who who genuinely do believe that. But but I also think that, uh, that many of our conservative leaders in this country grew to just pay lip service to those things and not to mean it. And you know, we you know, I don't want to go too much into in the history, and I won't, but people know about the Southern strategy, which if you haven't heard of the Southern strategy, I'm speaking to our listeners, you know, I encourage them to to, you know, do a little reading about the Southern strategy. But it was basically when the Republican Party decided decades ago that you know, when the civil rights movement was moving along and progressing and having success, and they the Republican Party learned that there were a bunch of racist democrats in the South who weren't happy with the advancements of the civil rights movement. And so the Republican leadership at the time said, you know what we can do. We can go down and win those votes by signaling to those you know, to those racist democrats in the South that you know, they ought to come over to the Republican side because we were okay with that, you know, that was that was the plan. But to send those signals in a way that wouldn't turn off the moderate Republicans in the North, those who truly were sort of in the in the you know the link on Ian you know, realm of Republicanism, which was to to fight for equality, and so ever since the Republican Party embraced that strategy, you know, we brought into the party people who don't embrace those values. So the first thing is embracing those philosophically. But I think criminal justice reform is one of those things, and I know that that has actually that's been one of the few things that has advanced in Washington under the Trump presidency. He has signed into into law, you know, you know, reform on that front. It's a start. More needs to be done, but I do think criminal justice reform is one of those things. It uh anyway, it's one of those things, without getting too deep into it, another one of those things that I think we have to realize that like look at you know, I it perplexes me a little bit when I hear people on the right not recognize that if you're great grandparents or your grandparents were actual slaves, that maybe the impact of that goes through generations and that maybe you know it, you know, maybe that it impacts you know, your life living today, if your grandmother and grandfather or great grandfather and mother were slaves, it impacts you today? How does it impact you? Well, I think we take for granted those of us, even you know, I had a challenging upbringing in the sense that we didn't have everything we needed all the time, but I certainly had it a lot better than than a lot of people do. And I especially look at some of our minority communities, especially the African American community, at least my family. Basically, you know, we had we knew how, we knew how the system worked in ways because it had worked for us. Generally, it was designed for us that came with an advantage. Even as we struggled as a young family, we still had these advantages and we still knew how, you know, knew how the system could work for us because it was designed for us. I you know, it's it's sort of perplexing to me when sometimes people conservatives or Republicans, I hate to call them conservatives, but Republicans can't see how, look, we we hold people as slaves for generations. You know, they're you know, their family after that is going to struggle under some of that for because of that, For a while, and and I think it's important for us to figure out a way to counter that in real time now. And that's where we can have a lot of policy debates about how to do that, but I think we have to do that. And so I remember coming to d C as a as a college student, as a young CIA officer in training, and um, you know, I I remember, you know, driving across the country in my little car and it was bugs everywhere, splattered all across the car. The first thing I needed to do is get a car wash. I arrived in d C. I had grown up in the Seattle area. Aside from Sir mix a lot, there were no African Americans or where I grew up. I wasn't used to seeing them at school. I mean it was a pretty white community. Um. And so I get to d C and I noticed a few quick a few things immediately. The first thing is I drive my car to the car wash and I go drive through the car washed and on the other end of the car wash were for African American men there to dry my car. And I just thought to myself, wait a second, like, why what are the odds that for African American men are the ones drying my car. Why isn't it sort of a mix that reflects the population here, Why is it for African American men? And that was a wake up call to me coming from you know, basically a white community in Washington State. Well, and you've pointed to it that it's the generational ripple effective oppression. That's right, that you might move farther and farther away from your grandparents. Are great grandparents being slaves in this country? If they were, But it's not like when slavery was abolished, everyone was suddenly equal and and people today seem to want to behave as though that's true. And if I hear one more person use that phrase pull yourself up by your bootstraps, it's like, but not everybody has the same boots. Not everybody has straps to their boots, exactly. And when people were denied mortgages, and when they were pushed into ghettos in metropolitan cities, and when people have been historically pressed into underfunded school zones where then they're they're in literal opportunity deserts, we can't act as though we've all had at the same absolutely right, and that's exactly right, And that's the same thought I had you in when I arrived in d C at first and and made that second observation, which was all the African Americans essentially lived in, you know, two quadrants of Washington, d C. And all of the white people lived in this third quadrant, and in this fourth quadrant there weren't many people at all living. But but the point is, I just thought, my goodness, like, why is it that all the African Americans live in this part of town and all the white people live in another part of town? And of course the you know, the part of town where all the white people lived as the affluent part of town, and then the rest is really struggling. And yeah, I mean it's when you see it in those dark terms, when you didn't grow up with that, and all of a sudden you go see that, you say, boy, we've we've got a ways to go as a country. And and you know, there are people in the country now who who view that as the idea that we need to do more for others as a threat to to the to them and to what they have. And and I want to say that, you know, African American people are not the only people struggling in this country. We have others who are struggling to there are white communities struggling as well. But what we have to make sure, I think, is to first of all, we shouldn't be defining ourselves by color. That's not how I believe God defines us. It's not It doesn't indicate our value either way. Um, But I think some people are who are struggling in the country. They you know, and this is this happens in every country. When times are tough, you sort of look around and you say, you put people into the category of other and you blame them for challenges that you're facing. And something I do think is important to at least acknowledge, and I do agree with you. I think that segmenting is not helpful for us. But I also think we can't be blind to the segment that is caused by our society. And for whatever, for whatever way that God or the universe or whatever you want to call it, looks at us as a human people. We have built a system that is not equananimous for all humans. We've built a system that does systematically and overwhelmingly oppress people based on the tone of their skin. And I think that should make us even more motivated to change this system, because again, as we've been talking about, the system doesn't match the ideals on which it was meant to be created. And you know, there are mining communities of predominantly white people in Appalachia that are suffering tremendously because of the corporations that are taking advantage of the land and paying people such terrible wages that entire communities live on the poverty line and are exposed to environmental toxins, and and those people need our help to and I and I don't think anyone in a in a community of struggle wants to talk about being privileged, but I think that the inherent privilege is just that, regardless of how hard your life is, and it might be the hardest your your skin color hasn't made it harder. Your skin color for us, at least, sitting here having this conversation doesn't make us more likely to get shot by the police. And you know, I say that, and I feel like I must acknowledge that truth. And I also say that as a person who comes from a military family, who who spent half a decade working with the police and SWAT, who has been on many a USO trip who is a big supporter of our military and who is absolutely like on my knees and gratitude to our intelligence community, and trying to create content to honor those people and their complexity. But I also think that if we're going to look at the ideals of what it means to be a public servant, we have to look at the fact that in certain areas of our public service there are problems. You know, there are there are incredible military officials who deserve to be recognized as heroes, and then there are military officials who lost the pot and have been abusive in the communities they work in, who don't deserve to be pardoned by the president. There are incredible men and women on our police force around the country who sign up because they want to protect their cities. And then we have badge bullies who need to be eradicated, who are members of racist and white supremacist Facebook groups in every state in the nation. You know, we we need to acknowledge, as we have been trying to do with the larger idea of our constitution. We need to acknowledge the systems that we're meant to be wonderful that have cracks, and we need to patch the cracks. We need to we need to figure out how to create more equality for everyone. Yes, I I agree with that, and I want to be clear that you know, when I refer to when we talk about these communities in Appalachia that are really struggling, I don't mean to say that, you know, you know, look, African Amricans are struggling, and they're struggling too, and the two are the same. What I meant to say on that is just that you know, when these communities, these predominantly white communities, struggle, then and this is just it's all, It's commonly the case, and not our only in our country, but in other countries. When you struggle, you start to look at others and you start to blame others, right, And so I think that and our government is encouraging that our our our our government is our our leaders are many of them. But but I but that that sort of makes it all more of a challenge, and that we've because we went through a tough time economically fairly recently and some people are still going through that, we've started to do that othering thing, and that has made problems of racism in the United States even worse. But but I want to make sure that that people understand that I'm you know, I'm not comparing sort of the struggles of those people to the struggle of people who are facing challenges because of the color of their skin and because they come from families that were slaves, that were enslaved generations ago. That is a you know, that is a unique challenge in our in our country that you know, they're experiencing firsthand, and that we need to find a unique solution to in real time. And and that's just something real It just pains me. It just shouldn't be the case where you know, a poor neighborhood in Washington, d C. Is all African American and a f an affluent neighborhood is all white, you know. I mean that's in Washington, d C. And in other countries around the other cities around the country. That's the case. We need to find a way and again, like how to do it, there are so there are lots of ideas, but we need to at least first more of us acknowledge that, you know, given that unique history, we have got to find a way to to uh to to get past that and to help those communities get past that. And I when I say communities in this sense, I'm talking about the broader African American community. I really appreciate you acknowledging that there's a lot of conservatives who won't and I think that's something that makes me feel hopeful. You know, we've touched on the things that are incredibly frightening and for good reason. But I also appreciate that there's been many moments of what feels hopeful in the conversation and and when people are really willing to just look at what society needs from a human perspective rather than a party perspective. You know, I always say I think America lives much more in e ven diagram between the blue and the red. I think we're all a lot more purple than we acknowledge we are. And I wish that. I wish that we got to have conversations from that space more and maybe ours will inspire something. Yeah, I hope so, um, would you ever run again? I do think I'll pursue public office again. Uh not? You know you got my vote? All right? Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I you know, It's not something that I you know, I didn't think it would happen the way it did in sixteen. You know, I've for a while felt that I might pursue public office, but I thought it would be, you know, maybe in my late fifties sort of maybe the last thing I do professionally. Um, I never, I never do you. I'm like, you know, eventually I would do that, Okay, I don't feel ready now. I have, like you know, I have things I want to do for my own life before my life officially belongs to other people. But yeah, and that's part of it for me too, is that I would I really would love to be a husband and a father before I do that again. And the other thing is that, you know, I believe that there there are certain things you can do a private person that are more difficult to do as a as an elected person elected an elected official, and certain ways to make a difference that that are easier as a private person. And and I enjoy having that flexibility now where I can focus solely on issues that I think are critical to the defense of our democracy. And when you're an elected official, I mean you should certainly do a lot of that too. But then you're also you know, on the you're also responsible for a range of other issues that are really important but aren't actually aren't the sort of defense of the foundation of our democracy. And because you have more tasks to manage and do and more responsibilities issues that's local issues exactly. And and I I feel very strongly that what I'm doing now is is what I need to be doing, is the right thing for me to be doing. And are you referencing your work with Stand Up Republic? Yes, and tell everyone who's listening aboutization, because it's so amazing. Yeah. So Stand Up Republic is a cross part as an organization that invites conservatives, independence and liberals progressives to join in the fight to help to protect our and improve our democracy. Uh. And so that's the work that we do. We have organizations around the state, organizations around the country. You know, we have members in every state, in every congressional district, and we organize to try to defend what we need to defend to to protect our democracy. But it can't just stop there. We have to also improve our democracy. And we've been talking about that today too. And you know, it's important, for example, that we make our elections freer and fair so that more people can participate, so that voters are empowered to fully you know, state their preferences. Go ahead, and how do you feel about the electoral college. Well, something that's hard for me is to understand that my vote counts less than someone else's in a in a society where we're all meant to be equal. That's a tough thing. Yeah, I gerrymandering is, like, it's really tough to realize that there are powers that be that are really trying to make some people countless than other people. What do you think we do about that? From your stand up republic perspective? Yeah, so on on Jerrymanderin, we're also you know, working against that. We're working so Jerrymanderin, you know where you know, elected officials redraw the district lines so that so in such a way that their party can never be defeated in that district, essentially choosing their constituents rather than their constituents choosing them. That is not a democracy, But it is. It absolutely is, and it's you know, it's it's done, and it's true that both parties do it. Republicans you know, do it. You know, We've spent a lot of time looking at North Carolina recently were active there, UM Democrats in Maryland, UM, there are more egregious examples of it. I think the Republicans are fighting harder to protect jerrymandering right now. Democrats are friendly to more friendly to reforming it. But nevertheless, that's something that we're fighting for. Independent committees that will draw those lines based on you know, transparent formulas and and and processes that that are fair and that create cohesive units for districts that that that makes sense for those communities, rather than to ensure that a certain party is always winning the elections. Because once you have that, you don't have truly accountable government. And and that's part of the reason we ended up in this space is that there's not real competition in a lot of congressional districts. It's really just about, you know, the primary fight for the Republican like who who's who's going to win Republican primary, and that's who's going to represent the district because the lines have been drawn such that a Democrat can never win, or in Maryland, a Republican can never win. In that kind of thing. What we need is real competition between those two parties between the two parties, and and I think I'm confident that the best ideas ultimately went out, but we worked very hard on that. The other thing, I mean, you mentioned the electoral college. A lot of people are very opposed to the electoral college. I would say that the electoral college is not serving the purpose that it was intended to serve, which was actually in part to be a check on the people, because sometimes you know, as much as sort of our wills is being threatened right now, you know, there are times when the will of the people is actually not right, can actually become quite dangerous, where you know, a majority of Americans could want to do something quite terrible. We've done it in the past, and and we're not unique. Other other countries, other populations are vulnerable to that. Sometimes a bad idea gainst temporary prominence and popularity, and we can do terrible things to minorities exactly, and you know, and and and slavery you know, in our own country, and and so we you know, the electoral college is is there to sort of be a check on the popular mob mentality that can develop in societies. But what's happened is we don't have electors in the Electoral College who are acting as freely as as they should be empowered to act, and so it no longer really serves its purpose. It could have served a purpose in protecting the country against President Trump, it didn't do that, and that's a sign that it's not serving its purpose. So I but I I do think it it serves a purpose, but I think we need to strengthen its ability to serve that purpose so that it does act on a check against the mob mentality and dangerous impulses of a majority that could take action against vulnerable minorities. But the other thing about it is that I think that you know, we're we're a federal system of government governance meanings that meaning that we're a collection of states where the United States of America and you know states, we're not organized as one centrally controlled nation, were organized in states, and each of those states have a voice and want to make sure that voice has some impact. You know, Utah, for example, is a state that has only six member or electors to the Electoral College. It's not not much, but in a popular a national popular vote scenario, Utah would have essentially very little if any real say and who was our president or even less so, even less populous states would basically have no say and who was elected president. And that isn't gonna work either, And so the Electoral College addresses that. But I do understand that, look the frustration that we feel where we have, you know, a president who was eleven million more Americans voted for someone else other than President Trump. Hillary Clinton defeated Trump in the popular vote by three million votes, yet we still have President Trump. I I think we need to address that. On the you know, on the foreign interference level, we have you know, foreign adversary who that that manipulated the entire tone and tentor of the sixteen campaign, and that you know, hacked the president's opponents and dumped that information into the public space, a tactic I'm sure they'll use again. I think, you know, even if they don't dump that information, they still exercise influence over those who they hack, and I think we we need to address that. I'm so curious if that's part of the reason, and that people who we naively thought might stand up to Trump aren't. I'm curious because we know that they also act to the r n C. But none of that information has been released. Some real curious about what they're sitting on. Lindsay Graham was also ACKed, and I don't Lindsay Graham did about face and is like a lapdog to President Trump in a way that is shocking given what he was saying during the election. So very curious what we're going to learn about his email server. I'll tell you what or maybe nothing, because you know, and I don't know what the well, actually I do you know that I speculate that you know, well, it could be for Lindsay Graham, that may be part of it. I wonder, you know, I wonder if there are Republicans who have been act like Lindsay Graham and he himself said, I've been acted by the Russians, uh, and there have been others, you know. I wonder if that doesn't weigh on them. I mean, how could it not. I mean, there's there are none of us who don't have personal emails that we would prefer not or whatever reason, even if there's no no wrongdoing there, they're just personal. We would prefer not to be in the public space, you know, are there if Lindsey Graham was hacked, you know, there were probably others and other Republicans, and and I don't think we can. We would be foolish and in denial to ignore the possibility of that having an impact. But the other part of it is simply and Lindsey Graham said this, you know, I was so disappointed to read this in the New York Times. He was interviewed and he was asked about his about face on Trump, and he said, well, look, if if you don't want to get re elected in in this business, you're in the wrong business. But but I think this is a situation where Lindsey Graham himself does not understand the business he's in. The business he's in, it comes with a requirement and an oath which he took to uphold the Constitution. That's what his job is, not to be re elected. And you know, yes, he needs to represent his constituents, but he took an oath. He didn't take an oath to represent his constituents. He needs to do that for political reasons, so there is an incentive there. But he took an oath to defend the Constitution and that he has failed to do. And that and so many Republicans are right there along with them, and I'll just say we we need a new generation of leaders. On the Republican side. I think we we will get it. We must get it. Or the Republican Party, I think in time will will you know, become a third party and an increasing number of states. It's already well on its way to being that if it already is that in California, Um, but you know, there needs to be some significant changes in leadership. I just really want to thank you for all the things you've been willing to say today. It really is such a breath of fresh air. Well, it's my pleasure, and I'm excited that, hey, there's been a real clear acknowledgment of truth and what's to inangerous and where the silver linings come, and you know, be I'm excited that there are still things that make us all feel hopeful. But I do have one last question for you, which can be personal or about work. It's it's up to you. But the the podcast is called work in progress because I think we really all are forever and I'm curious what in your life right now feels like a work in progress to you. Well, there are so many ways to answer that. I mean, I definitely. I definitely believe that I, as a person am a work in progress, you know, I I believe that my own belief, and this comes from my my faith too, is that life is a journey in which you learn and grow and and try to become a better human being. And so I that's certainly the case for me. I mean, my goodness, we'd be here all day if I told you all the ways I need improvement. There are many, But I will say that, you know, I never or anticipated that this is what I would be doing in life, with my life the work wise, that I would be in the middle of a fight for democracy in the United States of America. I thought I might be maybe I'd do this kind of work overseas at some point, um, But I never imagined that this is what my life would be like now. And so I would I say that because I still feel like I'm I'm learning, and and maybe we all are as a country, but I very much feel like I am learning how to fight this fight in the best way. How to unite Americans around our foundational values and the institutions that protect our freedom, you know, how to you know, help lead us to another place, a better place as a country to a place where once again where you know, aspiring to the more perfect realization of our values here in America as you refer to earlier. You know, that's a fight that isn't always easy, and it's it's difficult when your your your opposition in this work is the President of the United States and has the bully pulpit, the loudest megaphone of all, and he is fighting for oppression in the United States and for a dismantling of freedom in America. You know, it's it's difficult to to to know how to best do that at times. But you know that's a work in progress, certainly, And I, you know, I think every day about how you know, am I doing it in the best way? Is there a better way to do it? You know? How can we be more effective? And I don't. I know that I don't have all the answers, and that you know, the answers will come from our working together as Americans on on this challenge and rising above it together. But but that's I spent a lot of time and I'm not trying to dodge the question by putting it on all of us. I spend literally every day thinking about that that, how how best to fight for liberty and justice in America? How best to do whatever I can to have as big of an impact as I can in helping us get through this challenge. And um, you know, I I hope and pray that you know and through trial and air certainly that that that I can conn continue to learn and be better in that regard, and for the sake of the country, I hope we all can well said thank you so much, Thank you. It's a pleasure. This show is executive produced by me, Sophia Bush and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is cait Linlee. Our editors are Josh Wendish and Matt Sasaki, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Grilliant Anatomy m