Hi everyone, Sophia Bush here, Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talk to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Hi everyone, welcome to a very special episode of Work in Progress. I am thrilled to introduce you all to someone that has just blown me away with his intellect and compassion and articulates and kindness. And I know that you guys are not only going to love him as much as I do, but also really appreciate the insight he has on the pandemic and on our health in general. Today I am joined by Dr Darien Sutton. Dr Darien is an emergency medicine physician, an ABC News medical contributor, and an innovator when it comes to educating people and how to take better care of their health. Dr Arion's day job may be limited to helping patients that visit him in the er, but his knowledge and research extend far beyond the hospital doors thanks to his incredibly valuable and accessible social media platforms. Dr Darien started a platform. Dr Darien started a program called bus Stop Medicine on Instagram, and, after amassing a huge following, move to YouTube with his friend and collaborator, Harley Whaliah. He shares everything from the latest updates on health epidemics to breaking down the steps that should be taken if one finds themselves in a medical emergency, all with one goal in mind to better equip you and me and people everywhere with the knowledge needed to live their best and healthiest life. In my conversation with Dr Darien, we discussed his childhood and family, how he became interested in medicine, the unique path that his education took, his passion for educating others are current health crisis, the social and political climate in our country right now, so much more. Darry and Hi, I'm so happy to see you today, even through the computer. I know, virtual hugs, virtual hugs. Yes, it's so exciting, honestly to get to sit down with you and do this. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for being a champion of science. Thank you for for putting yourself out there in the way that you do as a doctor and an expert. We we need you all of the time, but we need you especially right now. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I think any voice that helps augment the voices of those inside of the hospital and inside the laboratories are important voices, and so many of my friends have become advocates of science and it's really quite a beautiful thing to see. Yeah, it's so cool. Well, I guess I guess I should go back and let you know, folks know how we know each other because, um I've I've been sharing with my audience so much of the work that you've been doing on Instagram. Um your your your bust off science, explaining how medicine works, what a pandemic means to people. But it wasn't actually the pandemic that connected us. Um I I have to love on the person that you love. I'm lucky enough to have become friends with your wonderful partner Philip, and thanks to him, I was like this beautiful man on Philip's Instagram who just is the happiest dancer and he's a doctor. I felt like a mom, you know, just so so proud of him that his boyfriend is so wonderful. So shout out to your love for for initially introducing us. Yeah, right as we speak, interrupting this, I love it so how I have to ask in the context of so many things happening right now, but especially as a medical professional stretching many months into a global pandemic. Right now, How are you? How? How are you doing in the world? Well, you know, I always have multiple answers to that. I feel like there's an answer for people who want to feel reassured, and then there's an answer for my friends, for the people who want to feel reassured. I feel I feel fine, you know. I feel like I'm operating through this pandemic um as best I know how. I trained and am an emergency medicine physician, and a part of that training involved preparing for what we call mass casualty incidents, and for a lot of the past couple of months, it has felt like I have gone through that simulation every single day. UM. I feel frustrated because I feel like, at the beginning of this pandemic, we had a lot of discussion over whether or not we should close and I feel like I'm being I'm being scientifically gas lit in a way because I'm constantly called to the table, sometimes too debate and argument basic fact with many people while also trying to treat people from COVID nineteen UM and and sometimes I feel like there's a disconnect between what we experience in the community and what we what I see in the hospital. Can you can you explain that a bit, the the notion that you keep getting called back to a table to to go through this almost groundhog day simulation on on the argument what do you mean by that? For people outside of the daily sort of scientific and medical community, can you walk us through what? What even is the argument? So the scientific process is one that is complicated and difficult, but it is regimented um and there's a common path that we all follow. And I feel as though, although, as I said in the beginning, many of my friends have become advocates of science and have started to use their voices to augment ours, I feel like there's a contrary part of that where many people are arguing with basic science and basic fact. And although I think that's an important discussion, as it would be, for example, with my patients who want to understand why they shield or should not get a cat scan, I think that there is a time in a place, sometimes during the pandemic, when we debate basic fact versus when we work together to fight the active threat, which is COVID nineteen. The stars Kobe two virus, and so I think although I think it's important, I think it is it is tested a lot of the mental patients and many of us in medicine and science as personally. For me, I'm actively meeting someone with COVID nineteen every single day, but then trying to explain to the world how the pandemic works in almost a repetitive form um as we've seen, We've talked about things like testing. We've debated on whether or not we needed testing, and for some reason, I feel like it's still up for debate. But I'm using the test, the example of testing as an example because it's one of the things that we still need. And it's September and we have many parts of this nation that are suffering from lagging times and testing, and so for me, that's what is sometimes frustrating. It's repetitively talking about the basic concepts that we can use to fight this pandemic and the basic concepts that we can use the fight of virus in general. It almost feels to me like you are consistently being asked to go back to the starting line as a medical professional, you know, and and one of the sort of analogies I like to use for it is that you've clearly proven that two plus two equals four, and yet for some reason, every day someone comes in and says, but two plus two equals five. So you have to go back to the proving line, illustrate why two plus two equals four, then try to move forward. And it's and it is to your point, it is a it is a time suck. It is a it is an energy suck. It is it is another version of emotional labor. That that you're being asked to do that um from the outside looking in, being a fan of science makes me feel crazy, So I can't imagine um what it what it is from the inside. And and as as a person who has such an incredible um breadth of medical knowledge, you know you talk about your emergency training. I just I want to brag on you for a minute. You know you you joined the Citizens Physicians Advisory Board two years ago. You do run this incredible thing. If you guys aren't following Dr Darien on Instagram and get it together on your Instagram platform and your YouTube channel, you do bus stop medicine, which essentially, if correct me, if I'm translating this incorrectly, but I would say to an audience, you're essentially bringing easily communicator, easily translatable, well communicated science and medicine facts two people. Almost like if you were at the bus stop and something, you know, a bus pulled up, you got to read it and you went, how that works? Cool? And then it moves along. It's it's really a resource that I cherish as a person who's looking for answers in the ever growing world of disinformation and strangeness on the Internet. So thank you for that. And and before we keep moving further into the pandemic, I do want to do with you what I love to do with everyone, which is go backwards, because you you're meeting me here as an expert and a trusted voice, And I wonder, how did you become Dr Darian? You know were you were you really interested in people and science and service as a child? Who who were you at eight or ten years old? Where were you growing up? Can you kind of paint the picture of your beginnings for us? Yeah? So you know, it's funny, I've done so many discussions and I've never gone back, and so here we go. Love to go back, all right? So I grew up in New York City. That is my that is my hometown. UM for many people who know me closely. I happen to have a twin brother who is also a physician, and he is an obstetrician and he specializes in high risk pregnancies. UM. And we grew up in Mount Vernon, New York, which is a small area in Westchester to our parents, one of whom my mother is a retired pediatric critical care nurse and my father is almost retired a criminal defense attorney. UM. And so a part of our life growing up was always being stimulated and motivated to ask questions. My mother being a woman who grew up on a farm and a very different experience than my father, who grew up in Harlem. UM. Very had different personalities and tactics in terms of trying to raise two young black boys inside of the city. My mother being one of nervousness and anxiousness and always telling me to take care and be cognizant, while my father always reminding me to use my voice and use my power, but also realize my position in this society. And I feel like that was probably the best experience overall. My parents still have guilt. They always always are like, oh, did you have a good childhood, And I'm like, yeah, I think I figured it out. UM. But being that said, that being said, using those tools and those tactics and being raised by two incredible people, UM has made me the person I am today. UM. A lot of my life involved education, and I feel like in another life I would have been a teacher. I always am enamored by the patients and the grace and the ingenuity of teachers all over the world, and especially the teachers who have taken the time to teach me. And I feel like I one of the things that I miss in medicine sometimes is that aspect of teaching. As you progress through the ranks of medicine and now as a supervising attending physician, I feel it's my duty to always bring that aspect to teaching to that of my relationships with my patients. And when I realized the use of social media and the platform that I could gain and and create, I realized there was so many more people who had questions, not just the people who I was talking to, and that's what led to the creation of the idea of something like bus stop Medicine. An idea where basically me sitting at a bus stop, as you heard, wanting to share my experiences of my shift that day with this stranger. And then obviously social norms don't accept me just talking to a random person. So then I said, well, what can I do? And that's what led me to creating something that I form on social media, which is Bustop Medicine, and that morphed into something that it is today, which is honestly, it feels like a COVID nineteen hotline where I'm constantly getting questions from people and also helping me. It's also helping me to realize the general misconceptions that exist in this world and also the general level of confusion, most notably because the voices that are speaking to us from a national, federal perspective often are confusing and we have to admit that. And I think that that's what inspires me to keep pushing every single day. Yes, I have to say, it's so cool to hear you talk about your parents and the way that you grew up. You know, you're having always been encouraged to be curious and ask questions, which really, to me speaks to being asked to investigate the world around you. And I think as as we all grow and step into these sort of leadership positions in various ways that so many people in our community have, it requires a self investigation as well. You know, how well am I translating something? How well am I showing up? And And it's not lost on me when you talk about your parents and their professions and especially your dad, you know, being an attorney. I think that that's so interesting because I wonder, you know, do you think you learned that kind of investigative habit from his speaking to you about cases, about clients, about social climates, you know, to your point, your parents telling you both that you could do anything, and also speaking to you about the reality of being a young black boy in New York City and what you then needed to know. It all makes me have a sort of aha moment knowing you as as a friend from our adult lives, where I'm like, of course you are the most present, curious and also practical person. Of course you are. You know, does that? Does that do you look back and go, there's no wonder I ended up being the man that I am. Agree. I think that my father is always a man who number one, first off, wanted to be in science, I think early on in his life, and then realized chemistry and biology were just not for him. Um. But he is most notably of all his trades. My father is an orator. My father is a speaker. My father can command a room of people who do not know him, and I've always known that anyone who knows him is that. My mother is one that is more curious but also cautious. And so I feel like I grasped from both of them, whereas I realized my power and my voice. But then I'm also also carrying the gentle spirit of my mom, which is realizing what she did every single day when I was growing up, taking care of the sickest children in New York City. These things, I think created me into a person where number one, I understand what it's like to be on the other side of that confusion, especially when people are really intimidating um. And then number two, I'm sitting in that spot now, So how can I make this experience less intimidating for the person who I'm talking to? And I do that with my patients, and I translate that to a broader audience when I'm speaking to anyone on a large scale and being an audience member of yours in terms of a person who seeks scientific clarity from you. It is really cool because I do and and I love that it was your experience after a shift at the bus stop that prompted this thought. And also, oh, I think there's no better term. I'm just like, God, he really nailed it, you know. I think about like, if I ever had to name a band, I would never be able to come up with something. And so I think about you know that your your your terminology for your content. I constantly feel like I'm sitting at the bus stop learning something. It really it really hits home in in a digestible and and enjoyable way in terms of participation and learning. So as a student of yours, by the way, you are a teacher. As a student of yours, thank you. I'm curious, you know, so, so we now have a little bit of the landscape of how you grew up. And I love that your brother also became a doctor, of course, and I'm I want to know about what happens in between. You know, from the time that you're a child and you're you're gleaning what you are about the world from within your family and and growing up in New York. How do you get to today? How do you get to becoming an expert in emergency medicine and being a frontline fighter? Um? In terms of COVID nineteen, What's what's the pathway? Because I'm sure there's people listening who are thinking, I would really love to be a doctor or I would love to work in these fields, and I have no idea where it starts. So how does how does that happen? What are the what are the teenage years? I know now I feel like we're bringing back PTSD from my life of education. But I feel like, um, sometimes we see these things and I'm so glad you brought this up, because we see these experiences on Instagram and on social media, and sometimes we forget about the work that it took to get there. And I one of the things that I faltered, that I fault on is sometimes explaining the length of time and effort I put into the simple concepts I'm trying to portray abroad audience. It took a lot of education, it took a lot of time, It took a lot of overnight shifts. Twenty four hour shifts and I see you, and just a lot of sitting back and passively understanding my surroundings. UM. I started out in college with my twin brother at the same time. We went to a state school. UM. During that time, it was how as a millennial, I feel like I've survived many different recessions, but during that time, I remember it was during a recession and we were talking about career choices and UM, we just genuinely enjoyed science. I actually enjoyed physics more than the other sciences. UM. And I remember saying to my brother, I think I'm going to be a doctor, and then my brother responded, well, I'm not going to be the brother of a doctor. I guess I'll be one too, and then led to us teaming up together in a in a classroom of many people who didn't look like us. Usually in every single situation, we were the only two people of color. UM. And I have to say that having my twin brother next to me during my journey of education and training was something that allowed me to be the best person I can be because he's not only my twin brother, but we also share every single thing together and we are best friends and so I always feel like I had more of an advantage going through the process because he was standing right next to me. UM. After college, we decided to go to medical school, and that was actually the first transition where we separated, and I went to n y U School of Medicine and he went to Albert Einstein School of Medicine. Although they're both in New York City, they they're miles apart, and as we know from people who have lived in New York City, that is very far UM. And during my time in medical school, I honestly people may feel feel shocked. I honestly went back and forth and said, I do not enjoy this. I didn't enjoy the patient experience. A lot of the times in medical school you have to go through the different avenues of specialties, whether that be surgery, gynecology, pediatrics, and I remember constantly saying, I hate I hate all of this. This is all frustrating to me. I was frustrated by the system of healthcare, by the subtle racism that existed persistently throughout my experience UM, and then also realizing that I had to make a choice that I was going to be bound to you for the rest of my life. And it took a lot of honest experiences with people and understanding where I could have the biggest impact to make me realize that emergency medicine was for me. UM. And so it was a very securitous route. I took a year off, I went to business school, UM, I learned about business and trade UM. And then I came back from business school and actually started my training in emergency medicine. And that's where I got to today. So I mean, it's very casual. It was only about twelve fifteen years, but regardless, just just a decade and a half. Can I ask about that because I'm I'm curious about the choice to persevere. You know, I I have never experienced racism at work. I've experienced gender discrimination, and I know in my own to be frank and vulnerable in my own personal experiences. There have been moments where I've thought, this isn't worth it, It isn't worth being up against this kind of vertical wall to just want to come to work. The other people in this room who are not women, or or who do not present as women are not being treated the way I am, and I know that that is proximal in terms of the oppression and violence and aggressions from the micro to the macro that folks go through when they're on the receiving end of racism. And right now it feels if you don't mind me asking about it, and by the way, it feel free to be like, I don't want to talk about it, but if you don't mind me asking about it. It feels really important to acknowledge because we know the pandemic is exponentially affecting people of color in this country, and they are dying at higher rates of COVID nineteen than anyone else. And we are in the midst of a global reckoning about our failure is a society to live up to our founding principles of a quality, and our failure to have pressed hard enough on the work even of the civil rights movement of fifty years ago. You know, we have a lot of catching up to do. And I'm curious because you're alluding to the racism you experienced as you were going through schooling. I'm really glad you had your brother in the room with you, because it's not easy being one of two, but it's really hard being one of one. And I'm I'm just curious, was was it? Was it a consistent thing in varying degrees that you, as a student and as an intern and as a resident we're experiencing. Was it also something you were witnessing patients experiencing. Was it both? Yeah, so that's a great question. And the short of it is that it was both and it was all encompassing. I think that, Um. Although this time of social awareness of racism has become something that's more popular and discussed discussions and dinner tables, um, it is something that we as people of color have known since the beginning of our personal time. You know. For me, as a child, my father would take me to museum special museum, slavery museums and show the mutilation of bodies. UM. For me, at a time when I was getting accepted into medical school, we had something called our white Coat Ceremony, and my father would remind me of saying, those same museums and the science that was created from those museums that allowed physicians to don a white coat and do things that were not just good. Um. And he was reminding me of that as I was swearing into my medical school, telling me just remember that the white coat is not just for good. It has been used for the most incredible levels of evil. As we know now, the the science of gynecology was born in the wombs of slaves. The science of basic science of research was etched in the backs of black men during the times of Tuskegee experiments, when we inhumanely contaminated people with ziflis. You know, these are really harsh parts of history that we often feel uncomfortable about and we don't pack up, or we pack up and we don't include in our discussions, especially inside of our call rooms. Physician to physician, it is uncomfortable to talk about racism, and I get it. I think the reason why is because it's very unlikely that the room has diverse people in it. As we know from the statistics, black men in medicine is a rare occasion. And I'm very aware of that, as I went to a medical school with over a hundred people in a class with only one other person of color, or excuse me, two other people of color, one of whom was a black male. And this does not allow communication and discussion to be birth. And I've seen it on all aspects of my education and training. I think this time of this social awareness of racism has not just allowed people to realize it, but it has forced me to realize the microaggressions and the subtle racism that has happened to me on a daily basis. And sometimes I just want to say, like you said, it is not worth it. There's a wall that is too vertical for me to climb. I am too tired, I am exhausted. Um. But then I look at my nephews, my nieces, the younger people in my family, and I'm honestly motivated to continue because I feel like if I've gotten this far from the strength of my parents and my ancestors, then I can only go further. And I want to use my voice for for that. And so it is exhausting, but it is motivating um for me personally. Yeah, I again, just from a proximal version of an experience of oppression or discrimination. The thing I keep coming back to when we look at all of these stats, and I think, especially in in the medical field, how important it is to your point to talk about these things to change the makeup in the rooms is even again, as a woman, I think about seeing Senator Ted Cruz tweet that pregnancy is not life threatening, when pregnancy is literally one of the most life threatening things a woman ever goes through, and so many countless women have died. And currently today we know that maternal mortality rates in America which are appalling on a global scale, we fall so far behind so many countries around the world, despite being the richest nation on earth, that here in America, black women are four times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. And I think about the ignorance of a man in a position of power who's meant to represent people, including women who make up the population in this country, for him to say something like that, We've got to talk in terms of the facts, right, And whether that's about maternal mortality or the effects of this pandemic, or the fact that we so frustrating lee are still talking to people about whether a very real pandemic, by the way that is global, is real here in the US. The conspiracy theorists, I just can't. I'm curious, how do you think the average person can assist your work? How do you think the average person can support the facts that you're putting out in the world. What do you want women who look like me who come into your hospital to understand about your experience or perhaps the experience of the other women in that hospital waiting room. I think that's a fantastic point and question. I just want to say that what you're saying brings up the important point of not being counted. UM. When people make statements that are global about an issue such as pregnancy not being dangerous, disregarding that it's disproportionately affecting black and brown women who are trying, who are just trying to survive, UM, that is shows you that that person is simply negating that experience iNTS and not counting. And that's something that is happening throughout all of science and one of the reasons inequities exists, and that is maintained in the hospital and creates the disparities that we see in people of color. And so I think that the primary issue is not being able to be counted and the lack of data. If you don't have data or statistics of the disproportionate effects of something like the stars code two virus or COVID nineteen on people of color, you simply don't know where to direct your resources. If you suppress people from volunteering to participate in the senses you don't know where you should put benefits and community outreach. You know, these things are repetitive throughout history, and there are tactics when you suppress, you don't count, and then that person does not exist. So therefore your life is more comfortable. And that is what we have to make people aware of and to make people recognize. I'm seeing now more and more unfortunately, as patients are coming into the hospital, they are more likely statistically to be people of color. And what I fear is that this virus will become that of a virus of people of color. And when that happens, it will easily be negated. It will be taken off of the common screens. We won't have cute, fun stories and media to share and empathize about because the people that we're talking about are people of color, and that is not as easily relatable on a broad scale as it is talking about someone who is might be of status of power and usually not a person of color. And so that is what I want people to realize. I have personal stake in this because every time I see a patient of color, I think about someone related to me. And I feel like that's what provides me this motivation to continue to speak up and speak out. But my concern is that people will forget about this, just like the other disproportionate issues in medicine, we've forgotten about it. We often don't realize how, how, how the insanity of the fact that the disproportionate rates of death between people who are having a baby in this country are because of their color of their skin. It's just something that to me is like so blatant that unless you're experiencing it, I don't I couldn't understand how anyone could ignore it. But obviously I can't because it's a part of my life and I wake up every day as a black person. So I think that the one thing that people can do is to continue to provide voice to those who don't have a seat at the table, to continue to advocate so that we can increase community outreach and these communities of need that have these overt disparities, and to continue to make people realize that these numbers are real, that this virus is very very real. Mm hmm. It strikes me as you explain that from this particular point of perspective, in the midst of COVID nineteen. What it, what it sort of creates as an image in my head, is a feedback loop of a racher that the lack of data, the lack of being counted, then creates this kind of vacuum where people's experiences have been erased. And then by not filling in that vacuum with the data that is available to us, by ignoring it, I shouldn't say us, I should say, you know, folks who are in charge ignoring it, it continues that loop, and you can see how it works throughout phases of people's lives. And so it feels to me like an immense responsibility to interrupt it and and to to stop it. And I'm sure there are people at home who are listening to us have this conversation who are wondering how they can do that. Advocate, as as Dr Darien just said, in your community, make sure people are taking the census, Go out, register voters, register to be a poll worker. Do things that will support your communities so that everyone has a chance to be heard and counted, so that everyone has a chance to cast a ballot. That's the only way that we begin to create equity, and it especially in a time like this when we see how fragile our demandocracy is, that one thing, you know, a pandemic can take an pre existing disparity, almost like a pre existing health condition, and blow open the chasm between the people who have been counted and who have had access to resources and the people who haven't. It's on all of us to solve for that, because it's on all of us to advocate for each other as as community members. And and you know, I just I want to thank you for being frank about this. I I know that there are people who are having lightbulbs go off as that they are listening to you talk about this stuff. And I know that it has to be frustrating to have somebody say, talk to me about your blackness and your profession. You're like, can I just be a doctor for a day? But you you are a voice that people need to hear from because experiences for so many of the folks who look like you are often not given an audience. And I appreciate you sharing your experience with an audience. And I and I want to acknowledge that I understand that there is an amount of emotional labor that comes with that, And I'm very grateful that it's the kind of labor you're willing to do so that we can, hopefully, as time progresses, lessen the requirement for it having to be done in the first place. I just really thank you. I appreciate you. I have a question, you know, and again this may seem redundant, This might be taking us back to zero, so we can prove that the answer is for um, how for for people out there who are still wondering on the being on the receiving end of all this misinformation, how COVID nineteen works. Can you talk to us a little bit about what this is, why this is not the flu, and and what in particular, because of the data that came out this week about mortality rates and folks with comorbidity ees and with folks who were only suffering from COVID, can you can you just kind of make sense of some of this stuff for us, Because there was a big about of misinformation where then there were conspiracy theorists trying to say that, uh, so many less people have died of COVID than have actually died of COVID. And I think a lot of people don't know where to get information they trust, and you are the one. Well. I can understand how UM information such as that report that was published with the CDC can be confusing, because even for me, I had to double take it and I said, wait, what is this information actually trying to tell me? UM, Just so that we can solve that confusion, because I think it's a very important point. I think people are looking at it backwards. Often people are focusing on the idea of what this six percent means and how that translates to how our overall health as a nation. So that report basically stated that this many people X many people have died of COVID and and looking at the comorbidities that existed upon their death, of them had additional comorbidities. That's essentially all that was simply saying, So if I can help someone understand if you have a history of diabetes or high blood pressure, or even if you have a history of psoriasis and you come to the hospital, all of those things are notified or documented on your existing Problems list, and we make sure that we document them because as a healthcare community, we have to easily translate other issues that can be missed when you are targeting something as intense as treating someone with COVID nineteen or the stars Kobe two virus. So in the event that the unfortunate event that that patient were to die, all of those issues are also listed as contributing factors, although they might not have been the end all cause. That patient was brought to the hospital knowingly because of COVID nineteen, and although they were battling other pre existing conditions, their battle with COVID nineteen was lost, and that resulted in their death. And so when I look at that, it actually has kind of shocked me in a different way. I said, Wow, this many people are dealing in the United States with other comorbidities and we only have six percent that are not That speaks to a problem within healthcare. You know, we have this many comorbidities that exists at It's such a high level of prevalence, and we are failing as a healthcare community to solve that. And if people who are maybe a health privilege not realize how difficult it is for a patient to see their primary care provider to manage common issues such as diabetes and had blood pressure. And the reason why I know is because as an emergency physician, I am the person that they come to. The emergency room is a source of a primary care plank for many Americans and unfortunate Lee, I have spent my time refilling medications for basic prescriptions for basic illnesses while also trying to coordinate care because the patient simply does not have access to that care. And so I mean, personally, I understand why the confusion can come. But I hope people realize that not only were chromorbidities listed on these lists that were documented as but other issues that were secondary to COVID, such as a cute lung injury and pneumonia, as well as um UH, many other renal failure, many other complications of COVID nineteen are listed. We use that to communicate science and to understand, especially retrospectively, how we can treat the future patients. So it can be confusing, but just know that that number encompasses a lot of different variables, and if you don't sit and really understand them, it can you can confuse that for a cause and stead cause and effect instead of disassociation. Exactly. One of the things that was really important for me to learn because I as well as a person who's really been closely following the science and who has the privilege of being able to shoot you a d M or call Jessica Malatti Rivera and ask for a translation on something. When I read it, I thought, wait, hold on, hold the phone, what does this mean? And when I started asking doctors and scientists like yourself. One of the things that really was striking to me about the fatality rates of COVID was that comorbidity ease, which are not fatal to so many Americans, become fatal because COVID overwhelms their system. So for me, for example, the way it was put into perspective for me um that that really was kind of chilling. I've had as well my whole life. I'm really predisposed to upper respiratory infections. When when lots of people will get let's say, a sinus infection or bronchitis, all come down with pneumonia, it really, it really is exacerbated in my system. And so that would mean God forbid that if I were to contract COVID nineteen, I would be at an elevated risk from a perfectly manageable asthma diagnosis. My asthma could cause complications that would become fatal, where otherwise my asthma would not be fatal. And that that to me really translated or really deeply communicated that COVID is a very what's the word I'm looking for, COVID. COVID is a killer? It is, yes, and and that that feels like an important piece of communication for people who are now having to argue with family members about what the CDC report did or did not say. And six is also a large number for someone who has had no medical issues. People have to also realize that that made me concern as a reasonably able bodied, healthy person that comes into COVID, ainto contact with COVID nineteen every single day, I realized the chances of my as if I were to become infected, We're higher than I perceived. And so that was I mean, both of those numbers are concerning, and I think it's important to understand them. But let this be said, as Dr Fauci said, these people that COVID is real and these deaths are a tributed bolts of COVID, and I think actually the numbers are understated because of the lack in testing times we have had, oftentimes many patients who passed without identifying that there are a COVID nineteen person or a courvid COVID nineteen patients. So I think that it's really important to realize that not only these numbers real, but they're probably underestimated. Yes, I actually just two weeks ago was listening to a doctor. I'll have to look up his name. I wrote it down, but a doctor was on NPR Midday um talking about how one of the things no one's highlighted yet is if you look at again because to your point, the whole, the whole reason that you catalog comorbidit ease that you catalog what medications people are on is for the data. It's so that we can look back at these data sets and figure out in the future ways to potentially save lives, ways to examine if someone gets COVID nineteen but has another issue, Uh, they can be on this medication but not that medication. It's it's so that we can serve people. And he was explaining that there is annual health data and annual mortality rates and and all of this information we can look back at. And this doctor on on NPR said that and I listened to the report, um you and I are speaking the first week of September. I listened to this report in the middle of August, and he was explaining that from March when when COVID nineteen became an outbreak across America, through August when he was doing this interview, there have been an additional six hundred thousand deaths in the country that are above the average, and so at his most conservative estimate, he would say that two hundred thousand of those deaths are also from OVID nineteen and perhaps more, which rocked me because I thought, Okay, we're at a hundred and eighty thousand deaths. If it's another two deaths, that's double the number that we know, and and so that to really put what we're up against in perspective, um you know in a way that that was shocking and and I have to be honest, motivating because lots of us are beginning to experience stay at home and work from home fatigue and wondering when we can begin resuming any semblance of normalcy. And when I listened to that report, and then I looked at the CDC report and thought about my own potential co morbidities. I was like, yeah, I'm just not leaving the house for any reason. I'm just I'm gonna I'm gonna double down again. The grocery store is fine, but I really need to I need to keep my ship tight. And I thought about people like you. I thought about my friends who are out there, who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, and and really, I I want to remind people listening, and I want to express my own things. What you are doing is not something any of us can get used to. It's not something you know when I say this for the audience, This is not something we can be desensitized to. Doctors like Darien are quite literally risking their lives every single day to treat people in a pandemic that we are still in the discovery phase on. You don't know what the solution is. We don't have a vaccine. Plasma is not a proven treatment. Everyone is scrambling to figure out how to solve this. And and you and your coworkers deserve our our most immense thanks. Your partners do as well. You know you're you're in the e er every day and you come home to fill up every day, and you guys as a family unit have had to figure out what this means for you. And I really hope that as this is becoming sort of normalized as a new way of life for for those of us who are you know, the average American who are listening to this conversation, that no one forgets the sacrifice you make every day in the risk you're willing to take to honor your oath and serve your patients. I I really think, like I want to like send you a cape. I think you're a superhero. You deserve an outfit. It's a whole it's a whole thing. And and you know, you guys that that added you talk about, you're swearing in, you're putting on the white coat. You you are the real You are the real superheroes. You are the real rock stars. And I I can't thank you enough for your commitment despite everything happening in the world. I so so appreciate that. It means more than more than you know to me to hear that. I also want to make sure people realize that although like you said, we haven't figured this out, the one thing that has proven correct and effective time and time again is wearing a mask, washing your hand and socially distancing. People ask me all the time if I think that that is credible, and I look at them and I say, how do you think I'm standing here? I come into I meet and touch someone with COVID nineteen. Every single day I put on my scrubs and if it weren't for ppe basic precautions masks, because I'm not wearing it in ninety five, at every single point of my day, I'm often wearing regular surgical masks. These are the things that protect me. And I believe truly in my heart, my deep heart, that these are the things that can protect people everywhere. But I think that it's the unfortunate part is that there's there's so much can tension around it right now. And I wish I could just put a billboard up that says, this is what we found out that works. Looking states like New York where we're living on top of each other, and the results of effective social distancing, um appropriate store closures as well as wearing a mask works. That's all. That's all I wish I could say. Yes, and a couple of small facts, because these are some things from bus stop, you know, medicine that have been really important. One thing that you said that I thought, oh god, that is important to remind people wash your hands before you put your mask on, before you go out into the world, because you never know what you might have come into contact with. Um what what are some other little facts like that that that you think people need to know? So it's it's people are always asking me as if I'm some person who has walked on water comparative to the stars Coope two buyers. I feel like people are like, well, You're always exposed. How are you keeping your how are you keeping safe? And I think it's a lot of the fact of the reason why I have been lucky enough to stay safe during this entire pandemic. And although I have been exposed to COVID nineteen, after getting tested for antibodies, I have no antibodies. So that theoretically means that not only have I been exposed, but I presumably have not been infected or gained any type of protective immunity from the COVID nineteen virus. And I do basic things that I've always done because I've been it's been trained and beaten into me as a medical professional. You know, I'm a person that washes my hands incessantly. But I also have to take care of my skin. I'm a person that understands when I should and should not wear the mask, wear the mask, and also how I put a mask on. As you said, washing my hands and mate being shure to not touch my face. But I also do things like walk into the supermarket. I also joke around. I joke about the experiences of going to the supermarket versus going to work. I have more anxious feelings going into a supermarket than I do going to work because I'm around people now that are following all different rules that may not necessarily make sense in terms of being protective against COVID nineteen, in terms of social distancing and wearing a mask, and and and wearing gloves appropriately for a momentary experience rather than just wearing gloves all the time. So the basic things I do all the time. I'm not taking any supplements. I'm not doing anything special. I am trying to remain healthy by doing exercises in a responsible way that separates me from people around me who might be infected, from the possibility of me having COVID nineteen. I wear a mask when I'm around people and I'm sure to wash my hands. I have not and and probably will not aggressively wash down packages. It's just not been a part of something that I could could have gotten with. And now we've realized the studies with fomites set packages and surfaces. Although they may harbor the virus, they're not likely to transmit the virus. But I do know that every time I open something or anything that is novel to me, I wash my hands. We just have to start to make it a part of our day, a routine. I love that, and and I'm curious in terms of experiences, you know, to your point, there's a lot of people who have questions about how to be in the world when they need to be. You know, for example, you're going to go on a socially distanced walk with friends, Do people need to wear a mask if they're doing that, if they're out walking or going for a hike or going to the park. You know, what are what are some of your recommendations there? Yeah, so I think that whenever you're going to have contact with someone who does not live with you, you just have to quickly stop and assess the scene, just like what they tell you when you're about to fight a fire. Look at the scene. Are you safe? Are the people around you safe? And it's a question that you should ask yourself that I often ask myself. I tell people to opt for lower risk environments. For example, being outside is what we know, is a lot less risky than being inside. Especially being inside during a ventilated experience, whether that be air conditioning or heat numbers you. Although you may have seen this person often, if they don't live with you, it is best just to wear a mask. And then number three maintaining social distances. Now, I completely understand that when you have not seen someone in a long period of time, as I had not seen my mother for a period of time until I moved from New York to California. I explained to her the risk of wearing a mask and social distancing, and the first thing she did when she saw me was wrapped both of her hands around me, you know, And I didn't. I could not help but embrace my own mother, And in my mind I realized, I'm human. We need these social interactions to live, and we have to weigh the risk and the benefits of each interaction that we have. So I am not the person who is around here a stalking Instagram story is trying to count the amount of people around you. All I'm simply saying is do your best. If you're finding someone that you're interacting with that is not living with you, wear a mask, socially distanced, meet outside, and hopefully we can begin to get this pandemic under control. I think you just said something so important, acknowledging that our humanity does not pause because of the risk, and and it and it reminds me. It makes me want to talk about the protests, because there was a lot of confusion and anger around protesting and I would if you don't mind, I would like to explain to you how I view it, and then you can tell me medically if that makes sense. So, first of all, and we touched on it a while ago. Um, it's really deeply unfortunate and I think comes at the expense of the safety of the American people that science and mask wearing have been politicized, and that this idea that you'll buck science to you know, own the libs or proclaim whatever your political identity is worries me because science should be bipartisan, clean water and clean air and not dying of a preventable pandemic should not be attributable to party lines. So that feels important to acknowledge, and for me as a person who has had the privilege of learning from my community and and working as a friend and being identified as an ally when we talk about justice. When the protests began after George Floyd was murdered, and we were saying his name, and we were saying Brianna Taylor's name, to me, that was the most essential human act I could participate in. You know, going to um the grocery store even was less essential for me than showing up at a protest. I could. I could make all the frozen burritos in my fridge and stay out of Whole Foods. But I needed to show up. I needed to stand outside of the mayor's house. I needed to march through my city. And because I've been paying attention to the science, I said, well, here we are outside. You know. Sure, the aerial photos looked pretty crowded, but in my experiences at the marches I attended, people were as distanced as possible um sometimes not six ft. But I don't think anyone that I don't live with came any closer than four feet to me. At any time at any of the protests I was at, everyone was wearing a mask. We were outside in incredibly well ventilated areas, hand sanitizers were being shared, and you know, waters were being passed out, and there was a lot of consideration for safety, and I felt safe in doing so. And at the end of the first two weeks of the protests, I attended because I was able to. You know, we both live in l A. You can do a drive through test with no exposure to anyone at Dodger Stadium, so I did that. Also go Dodgers. Um. I I felt really cared for by my city and my ability to be healthy, and also to exercise my constitutional right and make my voice heard and demand justice for for my neighbors and friends. And when we talk about things like distance and ventilation, that is why I think so many people also spoke out against some of these indoor events, indoor rallies or events being held outdoors like we just saw with the r n C with no distancing and no one wearing masks. Do where do you, as a medical professional but also a person who is clearly so wrapped up in the experience of justice and injustice in America. Where where do you fall in terms of safely protesting during a pandemic. Do you think it's safe? Did you hit the streets? You know what? What? What did your medical expertise and also human experience? Where did they meet in the middle. Yeah. So I like to associate this with something I discussed often as a physician, as many physicians do. It's called a risk benefit analysis, and so for me at the beginning of the movement UM in New York, when I was living in New York during the beginning of this pandemic, I had to sit in my own feelings and understanding of the fact that I am a provider of fighting this pandemic and I need to be as equipped and healthy as possible to continue to do that. But my rights are also in question, and I've written about this, and I think it's important to discuss protests or what got me to this spot here talking to you today. There are people who were UM, who were in busses that were set on fire, who were UM, had hoses directed to them, dogs sicked on them. These of things that people went through. So that I can put all my scrubs every day as a black man and call myself a physician, and that is never lost on me. And so right now, as we discuss the harsh treatment and the of people of coloring in this country, specifically when we discuss police violence and the disproportionate murders that are existing and continue to happen on and off camera, I have to speak up because not only is it an issue of civil rights, but it's also my issue. And I have to read the way the risk and the benefit of participating in that. And my risk is that if I don't and I don't provide voice to it, that not only will my rights be affected, but the rights of my children will be affected. And so that is something that that is a reasoning behind me. Now for the allies who want to participate, I fully encourage because I think it's necessary because we need more voices to create this movement. I would never put it against one who felt uncomfortable to protests, and I always try to help people understand there are people walking around us with vulnerabilities and past medical histories that you simply do not know and you will never know. And reasoning behind not physically standing in line and screaming and protesting in the emotional outbreak that we had. I understand if you did that for reasons of medical conscience and you wanted to maintain your health. It is. It is not lost on me as I meet someone who is dealing with a vulnerability in their medical history every single day. But the short answer is I need to march because someone marched for me. Um, And it's very simple now when I look at certain events that happened. UM, I was physically in the march, and as you had experience for the majority of my time, it was actually a very pleasant experience. I had a lot of anxiety at the beginning, but everyone I was around was wearing a mask. We were marching peacefully outside. And this is the majority of these marches and these protests that are going on across the name. Unfortunately, you don't point a camera to that. You point a camera to the small percentage of of emotional outbursts that occur in groups of people, and you want to categorize that as an overall experience for the march, and that is what is seen by people sitting at home and want to attribute their experiences or there are frustrations of protests to that specific event. But we've seen scientifically in retrospect. These marches were not associated with specific outbreaks in places like New York. We didn't even see bumps on the curve even four or five, six weeks after the events. And so I think it's really important to realize that a march is not something that propagates the pandemic, but something that can prevent the continued disparities and violence that occurs against people of color. Yes, because you said so poetically. Uh and and for everybody listening you, we will post on this episode in the story. Links are really just profoundly beautiful and pointed piece that Darien wrote for g Q. And you talked about making yourself essential, and I I also think about beautiful piece of writing that my friend Jimiale Smith did for Rolling Stone on Brianna Taylor. And and his article was titled Brianna Taylor was always essential, not just because she was an e M T you know, serving on the front lines of this pandemic. And you pointed out in your article that's something that affects you and Brianna and everyone else who's experiences have come into question or or have have been highlighted long in a long overdue fashion in terms of what you go through in society. You talk about the fact that black people and brown people, people of color are fighting COVID nineteen at increased rates to other folks, But you've already been entrenched in the pandemic of racism, and and you're phrasing it that way. Talking about racism as a pandemic, I think is a really arresting and clarifying use of word to really let people know how deep this goes. And again, because I know our liberty is bound together, that's in my own way, why it felt essential for me to get out there. You know, the only reason that I, as a woman can exist in the world today and not have to have my partner, you know, co sign my checking account is because of protest and and for us, this this this demand, you know, this very baldwin Esque commitment to criticize our country perpetually because we love her so much and want her to live up to her ideals. That to me feels like an incredibly you know, patriotic call, but also like like a demand for public health, because racism affects public health, gender discrimination affects public health, and we've got to we've got to get out there for each other, and I won't lie. I'm incredibly relieved that there were no spikes and that there was no increase in infection after the protests, because I know that the other side, who wants to silence our voices, would have used a tragedy and a health outcome to do so if they had been able. So I felt like a win for us on many levels. It was very It was very relieved, UM about that for sure. When you reference certain political rallies that take place, UM, a lot of people you know may have frustration and anger. I have genuine fear because when I see those political rallies and I see people close together without mask completely ignoring the pandemic that we're fighting, I think about the people who are around them when they go home into their communities, the essential workers who are people of color, who are inadvertently exposed to them. If they're not going to wear a mask here, they may not wear a mask there, and then that's what I get concerned about. So it creates concern for me, not just frustration. It creates concern because I know that they're going to bring it to a community that is disproportionately affected by this virus and will further propagate the disparities that we are seeing and and and continue to ignore them. When you think about things like that, you know, the the ripple effect of dangerous behavior, which does come out of a lot of misinformation and identity politics. How do you stay motivated to continue chipping away at those falsehoods? You know, you've you've written that combating disinformation is a marathon, not a sprint. So how are you How are you taking care of yourself in this time? How are you manageing you know, your own energy and mental health and physical health because marathons are hard. I hate running marathon is like not my ideal way to do anything. But that's that's what we've signed up for in terms of, you know, our various platforms and methodologies to try to unite and educate folks. And I'm curious how how you're doing that. I think for me it is off and on. I feel like, um, I'll go through pizza and troughs. I'll go through a week or two where I am just down and out. There is no participation for me on social media. I'm not returning texts and I have to really check in with myself, and then I'll go through motivating experiences with a patient or a friend and it will remind me of my purpose. And I think that that's probably the normal experience of everyone because you have to remind yourself that this is an extraordinary time and that is completely okay not to be okay. And so for me, I have two continuing continuously say that to myself while also giving myself a break because if I'm if you don't put the mask on yourself, then you're not going to be able to help other people get oxygen, you know, And so I try to remind myself of that um every single day. It is definitely hard though, and luckily I have access to therapy UM and luckily have access to close family and those are the people who helped me deal with the trauma that I battle with every single day. M hmm. Yeah. Leaning on people has really been helpful for me during this and and definitely getting getting a little vulnerable in in my trough weeks where I'm just like, I don't think I could do this. I feel like the world is gonna end, what is gonna happen, you know, Like letting, letting it out has has actually been incredibly helpful keeping that stuff in the body. I can't imagine this is good for us. I'm curious when you think about how we move forward, what what are the news sources who are the leaders for good, trustworthy information that you would like to point this audience too. So I think people look at me and my stories as someone who creates information. I am simply gathering information and one of the reasons why I find it really important to share at the end or sources. I think it's really important to share of sources with people, especially in this time of misinformation. UM. I supply a link tree of all different sources that I read, and I add to that daily UM that includes all the news reputable sources. UM. I try to stay away from anything that seems like it's from a source that I've never heard of before. UM. But personally, for me, I find a lot of peace in reading journal articles. A lot of the articles that are published through the New England Journal of Medicine as well as JAMMA articles that are helpful for me, but I realize that they are not helpful for every single person. But I encourage you that if you're reading an article that is trying to give you a perception of data. Oftentimes inside of that article will be linked the primary source. And if you are trying to be a better voice, I encourage people to do the due diligence. Like you just said, when you review that data from the CDC, open that link up, read it, try your best to understand it. I promise you. It is intimidating at the beginning, but it is manageable and so um for me that those are the sources I always say, pay attention to any reputable source, but also primary sources are really important to me. And then also tracking um Johns Hopkins tracking is really fascinating. They have put so much effort in tracking this virus that I truly think that they should win some type of Nobel prize when we're getting through this because they're providing vital information. I also use sources like COVID track now, covid track now, dot covid act now, dot work, which allows me in graphic images to be able to see how not only states are doing, but also counties because it helps me give advice when friends are contacting me from specific locations to let them know if they're in a hot zone or if they're in a smoldering zone or if they're in a green zone. So those are the common things that I do every single day. But I also set limits to my phone and social media um to an hour and a half a day, UM in terms of Twitter and Facebook, because that can be a lot of for me personally, a lot of the spaces where my emotion, my my my mind is sucked in and it doesn't make me feel good. So I have to set limits as well. I feel that too. I I've I set limits on my phone recently, and then I've keep catching myself ignoring them, and I called myself on it the other day and I thought, this is not why you set a limit. You have you have to you have to stick to your guns on this. UM. I can't. I can't thank you enough for all of this. I I do want to be mindful of our time. And I know we're coming to the close of the podcast, and I'm very excited to ask you my my favorite question to ask everyone who honors me with their presence on this show, which is the podcast is called work in Progress. And I am very curious You've got You've got your hand in so many lanes and verticals and you're holding up so much and uh, and you just moved across the country, and you know, the list goes on. What what would you say, whether it's something personal or professional, um or or anything really that stands out what feels like a work in progress in your life right now? Self care? UM, we hit on it a little bit here, but I'm realizing now every day, as I've become more mature and um, more of a person within my own body, the importance of taking care of myself. I'm realizing the importance of saying no to certain things, the importance of sitting in silence with myself and my emotions and acknowledging them and taking a break from distractions that are constantly around me. It is something for me that is a continuing work in progress. And I can't tell you that I am perfect by any means, but I'm really proud of where I've gotten to in terms of realizing how I should manage myself, my time, and my piece. Mm hmm, that's great, I'm and I gotta say me too, I am really trying to figure out how to do it. But I I always a motivated when someone else says that that's one of the things they're really working on, because it reminds me in a way that I should give myself permission to work on it too, that that I shouldn't put my self care on the very back burner of my life. So thanks for that. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our associate producer is cate Linlee. Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Cloud Brilliant Anatomy m