Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello friends, I am so thrilled to be joined today by one of my journalism heroes, a true icon, the inimitable Dana Bash. Dana is celebrating thirty years at CNN this year. She has covered campaigns and politics for the network for three decades. She literally started there running the teleprompter and in the tapes library, before working her way up to chief political correspondent and now finally solo anchor of her own weekday show. The launch of Inside Politics with Dana Bash marks her first solo show and is such a major moment in her storied and legendary career and honestly for all of us who watch the news and who have been longing to see a powerhouse woman like her anchoring. In addition to being one of the best source political journalists in the country, Dana has mentored an entire generation of journalists. She's beloved for her incomparable chops as a reporter and her willingness to provide sound guidance to others, and truly, no one deserves the accolades more. I am so thrilled today to be joined by one of my heroes, because I have so many questions on what the hell is going on in the house, this whole Shenanigans going on with the speaker being ousted, and since we booked this interview, with the war that has broken out between Israel and Gaza, there is so much pain and strife, and I know so many of us have so many questions, and I think there is no one better to speak to about this than her. So let's get going, Dana. I'm so excited to be here with you today, not only because you are one of the journalists that I admire most, but as you know, pinch me a moment truly for my life. Over all the years that I've been fortunate enough to do a little bit of work in Washington, You've become someone that I get to see socially, and you are as cool and fun to hang out with as you are smart on television and in life, and I just I have like the ultimate brain crush on you. So thank you so much for coming today.

Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello friends, I am so thrilled to be joined today by one of my journalism heroes, a true icon, the inimitable Dana Bash. Dana is celebrating thirty years at CNN this year. She has covered campaigns and politics for the network for three decades. She literally started there running the teleprompter and in the tapes library, before working her way up to chief political correspondent and now finally solo anchor of her own weekday show. The launch of Inside Politics with Dana Bash marks her first solo show and is such a major moment in her storied and legendary career and honestly for all of us who watch the news and who have been longing to see a powerhouse woman like her anchoring. In addition to being one of the best source political journalists in the country, Dana has mentored an entire generation of journalists. She's beloved for her incomparable chops as a reporter and her willingness to provide sound guidance to others, and truly, no one deserves the accolades more. I am so thrilled today to be joined by one of my heroes, because I have so many questions on what the hell is going on in the house, this whole Shenanigans going on with the speaker being ousted, and since we booked this interview, with the war that has broken out between Israel and Gaza, there is so much pain and strife, and I know so many of us have so many questions, and I think there is no one better to speak to about this than her. So let's get going, Dana. I'm so excited to be here with you today, not only because you are one of the journalists that I admire most, but as you know, pinch me a moment truly for my life. Over all the years that I've been fortunate enough to do a little bit of work in Washington, You've become someone that I get to see socially, and you are as cool and fun to hang out with as you are smart on television and in life, and I just I have like the ultimate brain crush on you. So thank you so much for coming today.

So nice. It's so good to see you, Sophia.

So nice. It's so good to see you, Sophia.

Thank you. There's so much for us to talk about, and there's so much that I want to dig into. I mean, you have covered campaigns and politics at CNN for thirty years. Now. You are such a decorated veteran of journalism. The way that you worked up through your career is so incredibly inspiring. You're known as one of the best sourced political journalists in the country, and you're such a beloved figure, and as such, I have limited time with you, and I really want to respect that. So I want to ask you a couple of questions about your career, but I also really want to be mindful that we get into current events, because there is a whole lot going on here. What was it that made you want to become a journalist in the first place.

Thank you. There's so much for us to talk about, and there's so much that I want to dig into. I mean, you have covered campaigns and politics at CNN for thirty years. Now. You are such a decorated veteran of journalism. The way that you worked up through your career is so incredibly inspiring. You're known as one of the best sourced political journalists in the country, and you're such a beloved figure, and as such, I have limited time with you, and I really want to respect that. So I want to ask you a couple of questions about your career, but I also really want to be mindful that we get into current events, because there is a whole lot going on here. What was it that made you want to become a journalist in the first place.

It's interesting, Sophia, I spent my entire life pushing against the grain of the notion of being a journalist, as both of my parents went to journalism school in Chicago, Northwestern Meddill to be specific, and my mom kind of left the business pretty early on before I was born, but not my dad. My dad worked for ABC News for over forty years. So I grew up seeing the good, the bad, and the ugly, and as a young person, of course, particularly as a teenager, I just seized on the bad and the ugly as a teenage girl is want to do, and so I was like, your job stinks. I don't want to be doing what you do and have no real sense of stability when it comes to schedule and so forth. So I really never thought I wanted to do it. Then I went to school at George Washington University here in Washington, where I still am never left. And I also even when I went to school, I was like, Eh, I don't want to do that. Let's see what else is out there. Maybe I'll go to law school, maybe i'll do X y Z. About junior year, I would say I just kind of gave in to my DNA because I first of all got the political bug, which I certainly never had growing up being in Washington. I got it. Then I started studying political communication, so I thought, Okay, I'll maybe work in politics. And then I realized that I couldn't work in politics because I didn't have a passion for either being a conservative or being a liberal. I didn't have a passion for being a Democrat or Republican. That's just not maybe it's how I was raised, it's just not who I am and what I did have a passion for was learning all of it and getting all of it. And so I ended up doing internships at various news organizations and then ended up at CNN while still in college my senior year, and I literally have not had another job since. That's so cool and so crazing, right, only one job?

It's interesting, Sophia, I spent my entire life pushing against the grain of the notion of being a journalist, as both of my parents went to journalism school in Chicago, Northwestern Meddill to be specific, and my mom kind of left the business pretty early on before I was born, but not my dad. My dad worked for ABC News for over forty years. So I grew up seeing the good, the bad, and the ugly, and as a young person, of course, particularly as a teenager, I just seized on the bad and the ugly as a teenage girl is want to do, and so I was like, your job stinks. I don't want to be doing what you do and have no real sense of stability when it comes to schedule and so forth. So I really never thought I wanted to do it. Then I went to school at George Washington University here in Washington, where I still am never left. And I also even when I went to school, I was like, Eh, I don't want to do that. Let's see what else is out there. Maybe I'll go to law school, maybe i'll do X y Z. About junior year, I would say I just kind of gave in to my DNA because I first of all got the political bug, which I certainly never had growing up being in Washington. I got it. Then I started studying political communication, so I thought, Okay, I'll maybe work in politics. And then I realized that I couldn't work in politics because I didn't have a passion for either being a conservative or being a liberal. I didn't have a passion for being a Democrat or Republican. That's just not maybe it's how I was raised, it's just not who I am and what I did have a passion for was learning all of it and getting all of it. And so I ended up doing internships at various news organizations and then ended up at CNN while still in college my senior year, and I literally have not had another job since. That's so cool and so crazing, right, only one job?

Oh my god, one could dream.

Oh my god, one could dream.

I can't.

I can't.

I can't imagine what that must be like. I mean, and to look back now, you know, with thirty years at the network under your belt, what does it feel like, you know, to sit in this position and to have your first solo show? You know, inside Politics is such a big deal and a mile marker, you know, not only for you as an individual, but I would say, you know, for me personally. And I am so many women who watch you. To watch you anchoring this show in this way, it feels like such a moment in our collective history. Is it? Is it something that felt so monumental to you? Does it feel perhaps just like the next natural step because of where you come from? Is it a little bit of both?

I can't imagine what that must be like. I mean, and to look back now, you know, with thirty years at the network under your belt, what does it feel like, you know, to sit in this position and to have your first solo show? You know, inside Politics is such a big deal and a mile marker, you know, not only for you as an individual, but I would say, you know, for me personally. And I am so many women who watch you. To watch you anchoring this show in this way, it feels like such a moment in our collective history. Is it? Is it something that felt so monumental to you? Does it feel perhaps just like the next natural step because of where you come from? Is it a little bit of both?

I think it's all the above. I was very I wasn't one of those people who had a Okay, I want to do X, Y and Z, I want to do this job and this job and this job I want to I wasn't even when I started at CNN thirty years ago. I didn't know what flavor of journalists I wanted to be. I don't know if I wanted to be a show producer or a field producer or you know. I didn't no idea, and so what I ended up doing was a little of everything. I was a show producer, I was a field producer, off air reporter, and then I became an on air report or after breaking several stories and I knew enough to to know how hard it was, and it was like atrocious. My first live shot was on the White House Lawn, which I don't recommend for anybody and I but I loved and I still loved reporting, getting the information and getting the figuring out what it means and talking to sources and getting the full picture. And I was never and I loved running around and particularly on Capitol Hill, but on the campaign trail as well. And so I was never somebody who was like, Oh, I really want to be an anchor. I want to have my own show. It was just never my thing until I got to the point where I was like Okay, I'm ready for it. And and I do try to approach whether it's inside Politics during the week or State of the Union where I'm doing newsmaker interviews on Sundays. I approached it as a reporter, like what's the news, what's that? What's the lead edge of the news? What information can I get from whom I'm talking to, and what can I relate to the audience that I've just heard from people I'm talking to behind the scenes.

I think it's all the above. I was very I wasn't one of those people who had a Okay, I want to do X, Y and Z, I want to do this job and this job and this job I want to I wasn't even when I started at CNN thirty years ago. I didn't know what flavor of journalists I wanted to be. I don't know if I wanted to be a show producer or a field producer or you know. I didn't no idea, and so what I ended up doing was a little of everything. I was a show producer, I was a field producer, off air reporter, and then I became an on air report or after breaking several stories and I knew enough to to know how hard it was, and it was like atrocious. My first live shot was on the White House Lawn, which I don't recommend for anybody and I but I loved and I still loved reporting, getting the information and getting the figuring out what it means and talking to sources and getting the full picture. And I was never and I loved running around and particularly on Capitol Hill, but on the campaign trail as well. And so I was never somebody who was like, Oh, I really want to be an anchor. I want to have my own show. It was just never my thing until I got to the point where I was like Okay, I'm ready for it. And and I do try to approach whether it's inside Politics during the week or State of the Union where I'm doing newsmaker interviews on Sundays. I approached it as a reporter, like what's the news, what's that? What's the lead edge of the news? What information can I get from whom I'm talking to, and what can I relate to the audience that I've just heard from people I'm talking to behind the scenes.

That's really, really very cool. You said something about the beginning, and I think it might be interesting to you know, let our friends listening at home in on a little bit of the inside baseball. When you talk about trying a little bit of everything, and you know, for example, field producing or producing story segments, what does that mean? What are the things that young journalists might want to try when they get their first job, to see what avenue they're going to want to walk.

That's really, really very cool. You said something about the beginning, and I think it might be interesting to you know, let our friends listening at home in on a little bit of the inside baseball. When you talk about trying a little bit of everything, and you know, for example, field producing or producing story segments, what does that mean? What are the things that young journalists might want to try when they get their first job, to see what avenue they're going to want to walk.

It's a great question. Well, just let's just take the term producer. It means so many different things. I mean, Hollywood means something very different in Hollywood than it does in TV news. But even within TV news it means something very different depending on what you're doing so you can be a producer on a like, as you said, a segment producer. So just for example, a segment producer who works with me on Inside Politics, I will do a segment on this. I'm just the speaker's fight. So that segment producer will will help me come up with the sort of elements and here's what happened today, and you've got to make sure to run this SoundBite in that sound bite and the information to make sure that we're totally up to speed on it, and maybe even some of the writing coming into it. We work on that. So that's what a segment producer will do. Another producer, sort of kind of producer is a booker, somebody who calls and gets guests on. And another producer is somebody who sits in the control room and helps to put the what we call the rundown together, so the order of what's going to happen in the show, and makes the technical decisions and edits to what you see on the screen. And it's not just me talking, but you see that banner underneath me that says happening now, speaker election. I'm just making things up. So all of those things are various things that a producer does just on a show. Now separate that out with field producing, which is going out to shoot a story, going out to produce live shots, so a producer with a reporter, making sure that the camera is there, making sure that the people can hear it, making sure that you have transmission so that whether it used to be in the old days you needed to bring a giant satellite truck, now you can just bring a backpack with a with what's called a live view which is basically a cell phone to get people live on TV. It's it's totally different. So that's another kind of producers. So there are various ways into it. And then there is the what I called the off air reporter slash producer, which is my example was on Capitol Hill. You can do this depending on a the White House other beats, which is your information gathering, your working sources. You're building relationships, you are informing the news organization about what the story is, the storyline should be, what's coming up, and things like that. So there's so many different aspects to it. And then writing, by the way I shouldn't have forgotten. Writing is writing is the core to everything that one does in journalism, whether you are on TV, whether you were in broadcast, whether you're in digital anything, you got to add it write.

It's a great question. Well, just let's just take the term producer. It means so many different things. I mean, Hollywood means something very different in Hollywood than it does in TV news. But even within TV news it means something very different depending on what you're doing so you can be a producer on a like, as you said, a segment producer. So just for example, a segment producer who works with me on Inside Politics, I will do a segment on this. I'm just the speaker's fight. So that segment producer will will help me come up with the sort of elements and here's what happened today, and you've got to make sure to run this SoundBite in that sound bite and the information to make sure that we're totally up to speed on it, and maybe even some of the writing coming into it. We work on that. So that's what a segment producer will do. Another producer, sort of kind of producer is a booker, somebody who calls and gets guests on. And another producer is somebody who sits in the control room and helps to put the what we call the rundown together, so the order of what's going to happen in the show, and makes the technical decisions and edits to what you see on the screen. And it's not just me talking, but you see that banner underneath me that says happening now, speaker election. I'm just making things up. So all of those things are various things that a producer does just on a show. Now separate that out with field producing, which is going out to shoot a story, going out to produce live shots, so a producer with a reporter, making sure that the camera is there, making sure that the people can hear it, making sure that you have transmission so that whether it used to be in the old days you needed to bring a giant satellite truck, now you can just bring a backpack with a with what's called a live view which is basically a cell phone to get people live on TV. It's it's totally different. So that's another kind of producers. So there are various ways into it. And then there is the what I called the off air reporter slash producer, which is my example was on Capitol Hill. You can do this depending on a the White House other beats, which is your information gathering, your working sources. You're building relationships, you are informing the news organization about what the story is, the storyline should be, what's coming up, and things like that. So there's so many different aspects to it. And then writing, by the way I shouldn't have forgotten. Writing is writing is the core to everything that one does in journalism, whether you are on TV, whether you were in broadcast, whether you're in digital anything, you got to add it write.

And I imagine when you talk about the sort of size of a team required to produce the news, well, you do really need an all hands on deck crew because there is so much going on. Even in the last week, you know us getting this ready. I was so excited to be able to grab some of your time to talk about what's going on with this Seaker's drama, to talk about what's happening in the house and how insane everything seems to be in Washington right now. And since we booked today's discussion, a war has broken out between Israel and Gaza. I mean, there's wild political crises at home, there's geopolitical crises around the world, and I would imagine that the pressure to get it right and to be able to cover people's stories well is immense, and so it requires a lot of eyes, a lot of input, a lot of intelligence, a lot of empathy. And I would imagine that you feel like you have an incredible team behind you on your two shows.

And I imagine when you talk about the sort of size of a team required to produce the news, well, you do really need an all hands on deck crew because there is so much going on. Even in the last week, you know us getting this ready. I was so excited to be able to grab some of your time to talk about what's going on with this Seaker's drama, to talk about what's happening in the house and how insane everything seems to be in Washington right now. And since we booked today's discussion, a war has broken out between Israel and Gaza. I mean, there's wild political crises at home, there's geopolitical crises around the world, and I would imagine that the pressure to get it right and to be able to cover people's stories well is immense, and so it requires a lot of eyes, a lot of input, a lot of intelligence, a lot of empathy. And I would imagine that you feel like you have an incredible team behind you on your two shows.

I do. I'm very lucky incredible team, And you're exactly right. You nailed it. Well, Look, you got to get it right on every story, but on a story like this, which is so complicated and so fraught for so many reasons, the language, every word used is important, every chiron on the screen is important, every guest book is important in framing it the right way. And when I say important, I mean it is the balance. It is critical. Look, I mean I have to tell you, Sophia. I people have said to me in covering politics for years, how do you do it with a straight face? Like how do you handle all of these people who don't like each other? And to me, it's like whatever, it's easy, Like I can so easily be dispassionate about politics, not that it doesn't affect all of our lives, but it's just it's it's in one bucket, this kind of story, which is not only about about war but about terror and terrorism. The I mean, we're learning more and more about the isis style, barbaric, horrific, horrific, cruel. I mean, I'm just I've run out of words to say. What they did to the oldest, to the youngest. It's beyond imagination, and it's done this issue on this story, it's hard to be dispassionate. I'm not dispassionate. I can't even pretend to be dispassionate, nor I don't think should I, because this is about humanity and that's what it should be. M hm.

I do. I'm very lucky incredible team, And you're exactly right. You nailed it. Well, Look, you got to get it right on every story, but on a story like this, which is so complicated and so fraught for so many reasons, the language, every word used is important, every chiron on the screen is important, every guest book is important in framing it the right way. And when I say important, I mean it is the balance. It is critical. Look, I mean I have to tell you, Sophia. I people have said to me in covering politics for years, how do you do it with a straight face? Like how do you handle all of these people who don't like each other? And to me, it's like whatever, it's easy, Like I can so easily be dispassionate about politics, not that it doesn't affect all of our lives, but it's just it's it's in one bucket, this kind of story, which is not only about about war but about terror and terrorism. The I mean, we're learning more and more about the isis style, barbaric, horrific, horrific, cruel. I mean, I'm just I've run out of words to say. What they did to the oldest, to the youngest. It's beyond imagination, and it's done this issue on this story, it's hard to be dispassionate. I'm not dispassionate. I can't even pretend to be dispassionate, nor I don't think should I, because this is about humanity and that's what it should be. M hm.

When you use a word like dispassionate, is the for me as the non professional newsperson, is the idea or or sort of the onus on having to require that of yourself a lot as a journalist does. Does that translate into essentially you saying that you have to present the news as neutrally or as without bias as possible, that you have to in a way divest your own feelings, perhaps from a story, so that you can present the facts.

When you use a word like dispassionate, is the for me as the non professional newsperson, is the idea or or sort of the onus on having to require that of yourself a lot as a journalist does. Does that translate into essentially you saying that you have to present the news as neutrally or as without bias as possible, that you have to in a way divest your own feelings, perhaps from a story, so that you can present the facts.

Yeah, actually, I mean in this because that's again, that's what I mean about politics and you and I know so many people who are very passionate about politics and have a hard time seeing the other side and understanding where the other side is coming from in some ways, like denying an election that's easy, And again I don't get like passionate about it. It's just a fact, like that's that's just wrong. But I don't have a hard time getting work not getting worked up about it. And that's what I get a lot of questions about and with this kind of war, this kind of terrorism, I do have a harder time. But I just want to emphasize I'm not trying to not have that here because I think it's important to have I'm not saying like blubbering all over the microphone, but it's but it's important to be a human being when these kinds of stories.

Yeah, actually, I mean in this because that's again, that's what I mean about politics and you and I know so many people who are very passionate about politics and have a hard time seeing the other side and understanding where the other side is coming from in some ways, like denying an election that's easy, And again I don't get like passionate about it. It's just a fact, like that's that's just wrong. But I don't have a hard time getting work not getting worked up about it. And that's what I get a lot of questions about and with this kind of war, this kind of terrorism, I do have a harder time. But I just want to emphasize I'm not trying to not have that here because I think it's important to have I'm not saying like blubbering all over the microphone, but it's but it's important to be a human being when these kinds of stories.

Yeah, I'm important to be affected. I think if we lose our empathy, we lose our humanity. And now a word from our sponsors, who make this show possible. Can you, as the resident legendary journalists on in this conversation with me, can you break down for our listeners what happened in Israel over the weekend.

Yeah, I'm important to be affected. I think if we lose our empathy, we lose our humanity. And now a word from our sponsors, who make this show possible. Can you, as the resident legendary journalists on in this conversation with me, can you break down for our listeners what happened in Israel over the weekend.

Well, the answer to what happened is still being reported and is still be told. And when I say what happened, like how did it happen? How was it that these over a thousand, maybe even close to two thousand terrorists and that's what they were. Fifteen hundred of them are apparently dead inside Israel, broke through fences and other areas of the border and brutally murdered innocent civilians. They also attacked the military but brutally murdered innocent civilians, hundreds of them, and it was clearly something that had been planned for a very long time, and that happened in addition to that sort of physical on the ground, to rockets being fired, and in Israel, particularly the border towns, rockets being fired occasionally is nothing new. What is so repugnant and impossible to sort of wrap your mind around is the way that they got into the country on foot and the way that they made a beeline for civilians, pulling people out of their homes, pulling people out of their cars. When you saw and heard what happened at what was a music peace festival, a peace festival in the south of Israel, where it appears according to members of the IDEF that we've talked to and others, and they're still trying to put the pieces together that the Hamas terras knew that was happening. And it's even unspeakable, Sophia, what they did to it's savage to women and men, I mean, the rapes, the murders, the I mean, it's just beyond And so again, there are a lot of a lot of questions that we don't have answers to. But the biggest is how a country which is so known globally as having the best intelligence in the world missed this. And right now you have the people in Israel. It's you know, like in New York on nine to eleven, oh, particularly the people who live like in the feeder areas, the suburbs near Wall Street and so forth. You either knew somebody, or knew somebody, or knew somebody, imagine that. But the whole country, because Israel is so so small, everybody, everybody there knows either somebody killed, somebody kidnapped, held hostage which is still very active, hope, and or somebody called up to serve three hundred and fifty thousand people men and women are now called up. I mean I just know people, frankly in my own extended family in their forties closed to who were called up. And so that is what's happening now and it could go on for a long time. And the fear is that it so this is Gaza sort of on the west side of Israel. The fear is the north will be another front, because that's where Lebanon and Husbolla is a sort of station there. And we've already seen some skirmishes and the fears that they have well over one hundred thousand.

Well, the answer to what happened is still being reported and is still be told. And when I say what happened, like how did it happen? How was it that these over a thousand, maybe even close to two thousand terrorists and that's what they were. Fifteen hundred of them are apparently dead inside Israel, broke through fences and other areas of the border and brutally murdered innocent civilians. They also attacked the military but brutally murdered innocent civilians, hundreds of them, and it was clearly something that had been planned for a very long time, and that happened in addition to that sort of physical on the ground, to rockets being fired, and in Israel, particularly the border towns, rockets being fired occasionally is nothing new. What is so repugnant and impossible to sort of wrap your mind around is the way that they got into the country on foot and the way that they made a beeline for civilians, pulling people out of their homes, pulling people out of their cars. When you saw and heard what happened at what was a music peace festival, a peace festival in the south of Israel, where it appears according to members of the IDEF that we've talked to and others, and they're still trying to put the pieces together that the Hamas terras knew that was happening. And it's even unspeakable, Sophia, what they did to it's savage to women and men, I mean, the rapes, the murders, the I mean, it's just beyond And so again, there are a lot of a lot of questions that we don't have answers to. But the biggest is how a country which is so known globally as having the best intelligence in the world missed this. And right now you have the people in Israel. It's you know, like in New York on nine to eleven, oh, particularly the people who live like in the feeder areas, the suburbs near Wall Street and so forth. You either knew somebody, or knew somebody, or knew somebody, imagine that. But the whole country, because Israel is so so small, everybody, everybody there knows either somebody killed, somebody kidnapped, held hostage which is still very active, hope, and or somebody called up to serve three hundred and fifty thousand people men and women are now called up. I mean I just know people, frankly in my own extended family in their forties closed to who were called up. And so that is what's happening now and it could go on for a long time. And the fear is that it so this is Gaza sort of on the west side of Israel. The fear is the north will be another front, because that's where Lebanon and Husbolla is a sort of station there. And we've already seen some skirmishes and the fears that they have well over one hundred thousand.

Right, And for the people listening at home when you talk about Hasbola, that's another terrorist group that has a large cell populace in Lebanon to the north of Israel.

Right, And for the people listening at home when you talk about Hasbola, that's another terrorist group that has a large cell populace in Lebanon to the north of Israel.

Yes, and that's socially, and I'm using the word terrorist a lot, and it's it's intentional if nothing else. Well, first of all, just when you look at the word terrorists, that these people were terrorized, but also more technically, more legally, the State Department recognizes Hamas as a terrorist organization. It's not the same as a Palestinian people at all, at all. And the Palestinian civilians who are time and time, time and again caught in the crossfire by these terrorists who you know, hide in these densely populated areas of Gaza and end up using these innocent civilians as human shields.

Yes, and that's socially, and I'm using the word terrorist a lot, and it's it's intentional if nothing else. Well, first of all, just when you look at the word terrorists, that these people were terrorized, but also more technically, more legally, the State Department recognizes Hamas as a terrorist organization. It's not the same as a Palestinian people at all, at all. And the Palestinian civilians who are time and time, time and again caught in the crossfire by these terrorists who you know, hide in these densely populated areas of Gaza and end up using these innocent civilians as human shields.

I think that's one of the things that feels incredibly important to discuss and distinguish the complexity in a region like this. You know, when we talk about what just happened in Israel, it's not dissimilar to as you said nine to eleven in New York. You know, it is in you know, many circles being called Israel's nine to eleven. And what I think is incredibly important to understand, you know, things that I'm still trying to wrap my head around and learn about, is you know, I can't imagine if New York as a state were bordered by al Qaeda territory. You know, no one was sympathizing with al Qaeda on nine to eleven. And I think this conflation that Palestinian liberation is somehow tied to Hamas or that you know, anyone would conflate the citizens of Lebanon with Hesbola like it's simply an unfair muddying of waters. I see a lot of questions about the blockades in Gaza and what the Palestinian people in Gaza go through prior to this happening. Do you have any ways to explain to anybody, because I know I certainly don't why it's been so seemingly impossible to solve that conflict again, not between a terrorist group and Netanyahu's government, but between Israel and Palestine. Is it is it that it's it goes back so far that it's hard to come up with a modern solution to a historical problem. Is it that because net and Yahoo is very right, he takes a very hardline stance against threats, and thus the people of Palestine are punished because of Hamas's presence that like, how do we make sense of this stuff?

I think that's one of the things that feels incredibly important to discuss and distinguish the complexity in a region like this. You know, when we talk about what just happened in Israel, it's not dissimilar to as you said nine to eleven in New York. You know, it is in you know, many circles being called Israel's nine to eleven. And what I think is incredibly important to understand, you know, things that I'm still trying to wrap my head around and learn about, is you know, I can't imagine if New York as a state were bordered by al Qaeda territory. You know, no one was sympathizing with al Qaeda on nine to eleven. And I think this conflation that Palestinian liberation is somehow tied to Hamas or that you know, anyone would conflate the citizens of Lebanon with Hesbola like it's simply an unfair muddying of waters. I see a lot of questions about the blockades in Gaza and what the Palestinian people in Gaza go through prior to this happening. Do you have any ways to explain to anybody, because I know I certainly don't why it's been so seemingly impossible to solve that conflict again, not between a terrorist group and Netanyahu's government, but between Israel and Palestine. Is it is it that it's it goes back so far that it's hard to come up with a modern solution to a historical problem. Is it that because net and Yahoo is very right, he takes a very hardline stance against threats, and thus the people of Palestine are punished because of Hamas's presence that like, how do we make sense of this stuff?

They layers. I mean it's everything that you just said plus plus listen, I mean, Gaza is not it's its own place, it's not Israel does not the Israeli government does not oversee it anymore for many, many years, and so they can elect who they want, and the problem is that the Palestinian government that does want to find peace, they're overtaken by the bad actors. And it's very, very complicated. It's very complicated. And you've also had a lot of internal division inside Israel, which you referred to when it comes to Benjamin nets and Yahoo, and not only about Palestinians, but about how they're governed themselves, about how their own is working and how it should work. So you have so many layers of so many complicated factors that don't even relate to the core complicated factor, which is Jerusalem and how there is a claim to parts of it by three different religions.

They layers. I mean it's everything that you just said plus plus listen, I mean, Gaza is not it's its own place, it's not Israel does not the Israeli government does not oversee it anymore for many, many years, and so they can elect who they want, and the problem is that the Palestinian government that does want to find peace, they're overtaken by the bad actors. And it's very, very complicated. It's very complicated. And you've also had a lot of internal division inside Israel, which you referred to when it comes to Benjamin nets and Yahoo, and not only about Palestinians, but about how they're governed themselves, about how their own is working and how it should work. So you have so many layers of so many complicated factors that don't even relate to the core complicated factor, which is Jerusalem and how there is a claim to parts of it by three different religions.

Yeah, it's been really interesting for me to read. You know, I was looking at a lot of information about the recent protests in Israel against some of Netanyahu's policies, knowing that Israeli's citizens are saying, we don't want it to be this way here, and then you read about what's been happening in Palestine, and to your point, if correct me if I'm wrong, but what I read yesterday said that there had not been a free and fair election in Palestine in seventeen years because of the influence of Hamas. And it's wild to try to hold all of this information, being so far away, to try to hold space for all of these things to simultaneously be true. And then you see this horrific terrorist attack, a brutal attack on innocent civilians, and then you see, you know, the return fire of a military that is harming more civilians, and you just go, what's the path forward going to be here for these people? And will we ever I wonder sometimes when I try to zoom out, will we ever humanly be able to say people are not their governments?

Yeah, it's been really interesting for me to read. You know, I was looking at a lot of information about the recent protests in Israel against some of Netanyahu's policies, knowing that Israeli's citizens are saying, we don't want it to be this way here, and then you read about what's been happening in Palestine, and to your point, if correct me if I'm wrong, but what I read yesterday said that there had not been a free and fair election in Palestine in seventeen years because of the influence of Hamas. And it's wild to try to hold all of this information, being so far away, to try to hold space for all of these things to simultaneously be true. And then you see this horrific terrorist attack, a brutal attack on innocent civilians, and then you see, you know, the return fire of a military that is harming more civilians, and you just go, what's the path forward going to be here for these people? And will we ever I wonder sometimes when I try to zoom out, will we ever humanly be able to say people are not their governments?

M Well, I mean you can say that go across the globe. People got their governments in China, people are not their government in Russia, people are not in Iran. To keep it in this region is one of the best examples in this conversation. And I don't feel like I'm always successful, but I try to say the Iranian regime, yes, regime is very different from the Iranian people. And we saw that, you know, a few years ago, even more recently with the protest with the people there about the way that their government is acting. Yeah, so complicated.

M Well, I mean you can say that go across the globe. People got their governments in China, people are not their government in Russia, people are not in Iran. To keep it in this region is one of the best examples in this conversation. And I don't feel like I'm always successful, but I try to say the Iranian regime, yes, regime is very different from the Iranian people. And we saw that, you know, a few years ago, even more recently with the protest with the people there about the way that their government is acting. Yeah, so complicated.

Yeah, I mean what Iran has been doing two women, you know what we see in the in the women life freedom fight. And then and I hope it's okay for me to ask, and you can tell me if the reporting isn't there yet to give a yes or no answer. But you're even seeing a lot of conversation about how Iran has been funding Hamas, how Iran was behind likely behind this attack. And now you've got a bunch of people I'm reading articles about how, you know a lot of the intelligence that they believe Trump was sharing with Iran had to do with Israeli security. Is that being investigated? Is that a rumor? Is that we don't quite know?

Yeah, I mean what Iran has been doing two women, you know what we see in the in the women life freedom fight. And then and I hope it's okay for me to ask, and you can tell me if the reporting isn't there yet to give a yes or no answer. But you're even seeing a lot of conversation about how Iran has been funding Hamas, how Iran was behind likely behind this attack. And now you've got a bunch of people I'm reading articles about how, you know a lot of the intelligence that they believe Trump was sharing with Iran had to do with Israeli security. Is that being investigated? Is that a rumor? Is that we don't quite know?

We don't Yeah, and I do think we all we all need to be careful about what okay, because it's I think it's there's a lot that's opaque about. All we know at as of this moment when you and I are talking, is that the US government says that they do not yet know how evolved Iran was in the actual strategic planning of this. What nobody in the US government denies and what is a what is the is an open secret and talked about, is that historically and up until now, Iran, the Iranian regime finds hamas and husbala so to organizations to keep churning because because what are we talking about, to use your term, zoom out, what are we talking about. We're talking about an Iranian regime that wants nothing short of the annihilation of the Jewish date of Israel. That's it. That's what they want. So that is why they have their tentacles in the neighborhood and the other teles and and their money pushing this kind of thing in and around Israel. And I think that it is it is noteworthy that this is happening as well. Several years after the Abraham Accords, where Israel entered into what appeared to be a pretty successful, one successful peace treaty. Sort of. The idea was everything is stymied with the Palestinian Israel question, so let's let's go beyond. Let's let's talk about other Arab countries. The Trump administration did that, which Democrats and Republicans alike give give them credit for. And now we are on the cusps. We're on the cusp of a an Israel Saudi deal which nobody in a million years would have thought thought of. So the question is whether or not, Well, it probably goes without saying that part of the the reason for this terror attack, just part of is to to stign me that.

We don't Yeah, and I do think we all we all need to be careful about what okay, because it's I think it's there's a lot that's opaque about. All we know at as of this moment when you and I are talking, is that the US government says that they do not yet know how evolved Iran was in the actual strategic planning of this. What nobody in the US government denies and what is a what is the is an open secret and talked about, is that historically and up until now, Iran, the Iranian regime finds hamas and husbala so to organizations to keep churning because because what are we talking about, to use your term, zoom out, what are we talking about. We're talking about an Iranian regime that wants nothing short of the annihilation of the Jewish date of Israel. That's it. That's what they want. So that is why they have their tentacles in the neighborhood and the other teles and and their money pushing this kind of thing in and around Israel. And I think that it is it is noteworthy that this is happening as well. Several years after the Abraham Accords, where Israel entered into what appeared to be a pretty successful, one successful peace treaty. Sort of. The idea was everything is stymied with the Palestinian Israel question, so let's let's go beyond. Let's let's talk about other Arab countries. The Trump administration did that, which Democrats and Republicans alike give give them credit for. And now we are on the cusps. We're on the cusp of a an Israel Saudi deal which nobody in a million years would have thought thought of. So the question is whether or not, Well, it probably goes without saying that part of the the reason for this terror attack, just part of is to to stign me that.

Right, Because if you're a terrorist organization whose sole goal is and to be clear, this is rooted in thousands of years of oppression and anti Semitism, If a terror group's sole goal is to eradicate a Jewish state and the Jewish people, which is in the Hamas Charter, this isn't up for debate if that's the plan, and you begin to truly see, however, imperfectly, the beginnings of peace being agreed upon region by region in the Middle East, peace would negate your terror goal. So if you can blow up a peace treaty or a country or a people, you can use civilians as a way to create more conflict and more death and to stop the peace process.

Right, Because if you're a terrorist organization whose sole goal is and to be clear, this is rooted in thousands of years of oppression and anti Semitism, If a terror group's sole goal is to eradicate a Jewish state and the Jewish people, which is in the Hamas Charter, this isn't up for debate if that's the plan, and you begin to truly see, however, imperfectly, the beginnings of peace being agreed upon region by region in the Middle East, peace would negate your terror goal. So if you can blow up a peace treaty or a country or a people, you can use civilians as a way to create more conflict and more death and to stop the peace process.

Yep, exactly right now. I mean I just before coming on with you, spoke to a Congresswoman, de Wie Wasserman Schultz. She was on my show. She actually was in Israel and then left and talked to us from Jordan. She was also in Saudi Arabia, and her report is that in talking to the Saudi government, talking to average Shaudi's that they do not feel to TERRK that they feel like they're still going to be on track. We'll see other officials I've talked to, both on camera and off or like, let's let's be realistic. This makes it more complicated, So we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

Yep, exactly right now. I mean I just before coming on with you, spoke to a Congresswoman, de Wie Wasserman Schultz. She was on my show. She actually was in Israel and then left and talked to us from Jordan. She was also in Saudi Arabia, and her report is that in talking to the Saudi government, talking to average Shaudi's that they do not feel to TERRK that they feel like they're still going to be on track. We'll see other officials I've talked to, both on camera and off or like, let's let's be realistic. This makes it more complicated, So we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

And now a word from our sponsors. Now, when you talk about folks like the congresswoman and even one of your on the ground journalists, Clarissa Ward, I imagine most of us have seen that video. You know she was in the middle of a report when a missile attack happened. How having been in the field so much and having the sorts of connections and coworkers and sources that you do. How are people managing to keep their composure when they're caught in the middle of an active war zone. How do organizations like CNN try to create safety for their employees. There's the logistical stuff like that that sometimes when I watch these reports, I just go, how are these people doing this? And where are they going and who's watching out for them?

And now a word from our sponsors. Now, when you talk about folks like the congresswoman and even one of your on the ground journalists, Clarissa Ward, I imagine most of us have seen that video. You know she was in the middle of a report when a missile attack happened. How having been in the field so much and having the sorts of connections and coworkers and sources that you do. How are people managing to keep their composure when they're caught in the middle of an active war zone. How do organizations like CNN try to create safety for their employees. There's the logistical stuff like that that sometimes when I watch these reports, I just go, how are these people doing this? And where are they going and who's watching out for them?

It's such a good question. I mean, look, they have security, but if you talk to any person who is an executive, not just at CNN, but any news organization, they will tell you that the number two thing that they are worried about is getting the story. The number one thing they're worried about is the safety of their employees. And it is such a challenge. It's that balance of getting in there, getting the story, but also not putting yourself in an unnecessary Well, how do you define unnecessary in danger that that can be avoided? And it's honestly, Sophia, it's a minute by minute assessment. I am not a war correspondent, so but I just know from talking to my to my friends and colleagues who are there and just being on the on the show end of it. It is a minute by minute assessment. And when they say it's not safe, we got to go down, we can't come up live for you, it's no problem. That's it, got it right, got it right. Take take their word for it and follow their lead right well.

It's such a good question. I mean, look, they have security, but if you talk to any person who is an executive, not just at CNN, but any news organization, they will tell you that the number two thing that they are worried about is getting the story. The number one thing they're worried about is the safety of their employees. And it is such a challenge. It's that balance of getting in there, getting the story, but also not putting yourself in an unnecessary Well, how do you define unnecessary in danger that that can be avoided? And it's honestly, Sophia, it's a minute by minute assessment. I am not a war correspondent, so but I just know from talking to my to my friends and colleagues who are there and just being on the on the show end of it. It is a minute by minute assessment. And when they say it's not safe, we got to go down, we can't come up live for you, it's no problem. That's it, got it right, got it right. Take take their word for it and follow their lead right well.

And that's what's so interesting to me is there's there's such a need for coverage and journalism, especially in situations as complex as this, so that we can understand what's happening. And there's the real human element of you know, who's going to risk their lives to do this. And it's not lost on me that, as you said, you know, citizens are being called into the military, people are trying to figure out how to respond to humanitarian crises. And by the way, get aid to people in Israel, get aid to civilians in Gaza. It's trauma everywhere, and the zoom out for me when I think about what do we do, how do we get involved, how do we support people? Interestingly, also brings me a little more locally for us, particularly for you in Washington, because when you talk about how our government is trying to analyze intelligence and figure out how this happened, I can't help but think about the fact that Tommy Tuberville has been blocking confirmations to our military, so so many of our senior positions are unstaffed, which everyone in our government says damages our own national security, and our national security is also part of global nation building and national security around the world. How do we show up as humanitarian allies? How do we get involved as a government when we have a pending shutdown, no Speaker of the House and you know, a member of the GOP who's never served in the militaries blocking military confirmations, Like I feel like we are less capable of being our best selves as a nation because we're falling apart back home right now.

And that's what's so interesting to me is there's there's such a need for coverage and journalism, especially in situations as complex as this, so that we can understand what's happening. And there's the real human element of you know, who's going to risk their lives to do this. And it's not lost on me that, as you said, you know, citizens are being called into the military, people are trying to figure out how to respond to humanitarian crises. And by the way, get aid to people in Israel, get aid to civilians in Gaza. It's trauma everywhere, and the zoom out for me when I think about what do we do, how do we get involved, how do we support people? Interestingly, also brings me a little more locally for us, particularly for you in Washington, because when you talk about how our government is trying to analyze intelligence and figure out how this happened, I can't help but think about the fact that Tommy Tuberville has been blocking confirmations to our military, so so many of our senior positions are unstaffed, which everyone in our government says damages our own national security, and our national security is also part of global nation building and national security around the world. How do we show up as humanitarian allies? How do we get involved as a government when we have a pending shutdown, no Speaker of the House and you know, a member of the GOP who's never served in the militaries blocking military confirmations, Like I feel like we are less capable of being our best selves as a nation because we're falling apart back home right now.

And the question is how vulnerable does it make America? I mean, you hear people who are very concerned, particularly members of Congress, say Luton is watching, she is watching. And when there are when there's chaos or even things are fragmented and pieces are not in place, all of them that you just so eloquently described, it's does it leave an opening for people who want to do his harm? Maybe? And it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a robust debate about various things, But it used to be, particularly for Republicans just talking about Tommy Teverville. It was like the reddest of red lines, like you did not mess with military readiness, you would have been just marched out of the party or even at a Washington. Yes, not that long ago, and for very I mean, I don't know how. You know, you can talk about populism and how how the Republican Party has changed, but it is as somebody who has seen the uh, the evolution of the GOP over John McCain his entire president will covered him in the Senate and his entire presidential campaign from when he was one of many Republican candidates for president in two thousand and seven and eight, and then when he was the Republican nominee, and then again you know, when he was back in the Senate and he was frankly a typical Republican and he was the epitome of a Republican who was pro military and pro strength. And then not long after, I don't know, the Iraq War probably had something to do with it, but not long after the tide started to turn and churn with Trump and trump Ism. Who is America first? And why are we fighting these wars abroad? And which is something that you sort of heard from the left. It's like the left and the right have met in the middle on this question of national security.

And the question is how vulnerable does it make America? I mean, you hear people who are very concerned, particularly members of Congress, say Luton is watching, she is watching. And when there are when there's chaos or even things are fragmented and pieces are not in place, all of them that you just so eloquently described, it's does it leave an opening for people who want to do his harm? Maybe? And it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a robust debate about various things, But it used to be, particularly for Republicans just talking about Tommy Teverville. It was like the reddest of red lines, like you did not mess with military readiness, you would have been just marched out of the party or even at a Washington. Yes, not that long ago, and for very I mean, I don't know how. You know, you can talk about populism and how how the Republican Party has changed, but it is as somebody who has seen the uh, the evolution of the GOP over John McCain his entire president will covered him in the Senate and his entire presidential campaign from when he was one of many Republican candidates for president in two thousand and seven and eight, and then when he was the Republican nominee, and then again you know, when he was back in the Senate and he was frankly a typical Republican and he was the epitome of a Republican who was pro military and pro strength. And then not long after, I don't know, the Iraq War probably had something to do with it, but not long after the tide started to turn and churn with Trump and trump Ism. Who is America first? And why are we fighting these wars abroad? And which is something that you sort of heard from the left. It's like the left and the right have met in the middle on this question of national security.

But I mean, listen, everyone that I've ever listened to who is an expert on national security also can prove whether it's historically fiscally you know what, the global data says that creating a more secure planet, supporting democracy around the world also makes our country more secure and our own democracy stronger. It's not an either or, It's about global safety. And so I guess I wonder how how we've been we perhaps not you and I, but so many folks have been sold this idea that you have to choose rather than create a diversification of work to keep other people safe and us safe at the same time.

But I mean, listen, everyone that I've ever listened to who is an expert on national security also can prove whether it's historically fiscally you know what, the global data says that creating a more secure planet, supporting democracy around the world also makes our country more secure and our own democracy stronger. It's not an either or, It's about global safety. And so I guess I wonder how how we've been we perhaps not you and I, but so many folks have been sold this idea that you have to choose rather than create a diversification of work to keep other people safe and us safe at the same time.

I think part of the issue that is a relatively new phenomenon is sort of ginning people up and appealing to I mean, this is we're going down a deep rabbit hole here, but for a second, and this is something that I really want to do more things on. I was talking to Jonah Goldberg, who's one of the smartest people I know, and I just adore him. He's a true conservative, and he actually ended up writing a column about it, which I encourage people to go read. And this I've heard this from people who've run major campaigns, which is the search for and the desire and the need for small dollar donations has contributed to the demise of the body politic almost but it has certainly contributed to the extremes and the extremism and the difficulty getting together in the middle. And the reason is because how do you get somebody who has limited funds but has a lot of passion and is maybe only consuming information in your ecosystem. Let's just say, if you're and conservative, how do you get them to donate? You put the most outrageous bit of mail in their inbox about the most thing that's going to happen, and use language that is so over the top so that you get that five ten dollars. And by the way, getting that five ten dollars also means that because of the caps on donations, you can go back to them. So to go back to them and even more outrageous email. We see it on the left as well, on the extremes left and the right. That doesn't happen in a vacuum. I mean that helps contribute, helps contribute to the polarization that is really seeping in right it takes but in America.

I think part of the issue that is a relatively new phenomenon is sort of ginning people up and appealing to I mean, this is we're going down a deep rabbit hole here, but for a second, and this is something that I really want to do more things on. I was talking to Jonah Goldberg, who's one of the smartest people I know, and I just adore him. He's a true conservative, and he actually ended up writing a column about it, which I encourage people to go read. And this I've heard this from people who've run major campaigns, which is the search for and the desire and the need for small dollar donations has contributed to the demise of the body politic almost but it has certainly contributed to the extremes and the extremism and the difficulty getting together in the middle. And the reason is because how do you get somebody who has limited funds but has a lot of passion and is maybe only consuming information in your ecosystem. Let's just say, if you're and conservative, how do you get them to donate? You put the most outrageous bit of mail in their inbox about the most thing that's going to happen, and use language that is so over the top so that you get that five ten dollars. And by the way, getting that five ten dollars also means that because of the caps on donations, you can go back to them. So to go back to them and even more outrageous email. We see it on the left as well, on the extremes left and the right. That doesn't happen in a vacuum. I mean that helps contribute, helps contribute to the polarization that is really seeping in right it takes but in America.

Yeah, and you see the polarization affecting not just the ways PEO will believe we should spend our tax dollars about ideology in a way that I mean, God, I opened my Twitter account the other day to someone telling me, I mean the wildest things about just how I am such an evil person motivated by the wrong things because I'm a Democrat and I'm like, listen, one party wants healthcare, one doesn't. I'm a healthcare person. That's kind of how I identify. And you just realize it's gone, like it's gone so crazy. And I, much like you, I do believe in sitting down with people that don't believe what I believe so we can learn about each other. But somehow we seem to have lost the willingness as a collective to do that, and we seem to have lost the ability to see other people as more than what we've decided they are. And I wonder, would you say that that's part of what's going on on the hill right now? It feels like it, at least as a spectator watching, you know, the ousting of McCarthy as speaker. Can you kind of explain to folks at home what happened this week?

Yeah, and you see the polarization affecting not just the ways PEO will believe we should spend our tax dollars about ideology in a way that I mean, God, I opened my Twitter account the other day to someone telling me, I mean the wildest things about just how I am such an evil person motivated by the wrong things because I'm a Democrat and I'm like, listen, one party wants healthcare, one doesn't. I'm a healthcare person. That's kind of how I identify. And you just realize it's gone, like it's gone so crazy. And I, much like you, I do believe in sitting down with people that don't believe what I believe so we can learn about each other. But somehow we seem to have lost the willingness as a collective to do that, and we seem to have lost the ability to see other people as more than what we've decided they are. And I wonder, would you say that that's part of what's going on on the hill right now? It feels like it, at least as a spectator watching, you know, the ousting of McCarthy as speaker. Can you kind of explain to folks at home what happened this week?

Yes, I will, I will, And as I described that, I just want to. I mean, because I feel like maybe somebody listening to this is going to go need to take like O xanax or something. So I want to actually inject some positivity here.

Yes, I will, I will, And as I described that, I just want to. I mean, because I feel like maybe somebody listening to this is going to go need to take like O xanax or something. So I want to actually inject some positivity here.

I love it. I want some positivity. It's heavy week. Please give it to me.

I love it. I want some positivity. It's heavy week. Please give it to me.

Okay, because let's just talk about talk about Washington. Okay, you look at the numbers on the speakers vote. It was overwhelming. I don't do math, which is why I'm in TV news, but like an overwhelming percentage of House Republicans did not want to push out their speaker. It was eight eight people. But because the majority is only four, like that was that was the math. That's that's even math that I can do. So so they so that is the reality. Now here's the positive, positive thing that I'll talk about, which is there are friendships across the aisle in Washington. There are discussions across the aisle. There are there is legislation that is worked on quietly across the quietly, so they don't get kicked out of them by people in their own parties and maybe get primaried. But it does happen every single day in various corners of Washington, that people talk and deal across the aisle. It's just that the loudest voices, and in the case of the speaker's vote, people with enough of a Twitter following or an Instagram following or an email list have the ability to disrupt. And when you have a very small majority, you don't need a lot to And I'm not saying that people within the Republican Party didn't have, from their perspective, legitimate rights about Kevin McCarthy, But it's the notion of just being able to kick him out of his job without having a plan B is what is disruptive to the way that the process works and the way that the government works right now as we speak is not working.

Okay, because let's just talk about talk about Washington. Okay, you look at the numbers on the speakers vote. It was overwhelming. I don't do math, which is why I'm in TV news, but like an overwhelming percentage of House Republicans did not want to push out their speaker. It was eight eight people. But because the majority is only four, like that was that was the math. That's that's even math that I can do. So so they so that is the reality. Now here's the positive, positive thing that I'll talk about, which is there are friendships across the aisle in Washington. There are discussions across the aisle. There are there is legislation that is worked on quietly across the quietly, so they don't get kicked out of them by people in their own parties and maybe get primaried. But it does happen every single day in various corners of Washington, that people talk and deal across the aisle. It's just that the loudest voices, and in the case of the speaker's vote, people with enough of a Twitter following or an Instagram following or an email list have the ability to disrupt. And when you have a very small majority, you don't need a lot to And I'm not saying that people within the Republican Party didn't have, from their perspective, legitimate rights about Kevin McCarthy, But it's the notion of just being able to kick him out of his job without having a plan B is what is disruptive to the way that the process works and the way that the government works right now as we speak is not working.

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, So can you explain a little bit for the rest of us what the real ramifications of this are. I mean, voting McCarthy out while we're approaching the government shut down that the GOP has been threatening. What does it mean? What does it mean to not have a Speaker for the first time, and what does it mean for how the government is or is not going to continue to.

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, So can you explain a little bit for the rest of us what the real ramifications of this are. I mean, voting McCarthy out while we're approaching the government shut down that the GOP has been threatening. What does it mean? What does it mean to not have a Speaker for the first time, and what does it mean for how the government is or is not going to continue to.

Function well in the short term. It means that whatever discussions that the Republican majority in the House was having, or more importantly, the work that many in the Republican Conference demanded to be done on the individual spending bills. On the surface, this is about spending. And I say, on the surface, there are lots of different factors, but on the surface, kicking McCarthy out was about spending and the fact that he made a deal with Joe Biden about spending levels that the fiscal conservatives client felt some of them. I don't want to suggest that they're not genuine, because some of them truly are fiscal conservatives and they didn't like that there wasn't more of a cut and spending. But if that is their goal, then what do they want to do. They want to or should want to work on legislation for each their twelve thirteen spending bills for each part of the government. They should want to work on those like right now to figure out how to cut spending in the way that is legitimate and is more that they're cutting fat, not bone. Let's just say that on a lot of these agencies, they can't do that right now, Sophia, because they're not functioning, because I don't want a speaker so heat the committees. I mean, maybe they're quietly talking, they're quietly, you know, trying to figure it out. They're pretending like what's going on at the top of the of the food chain. There is not happening, But there's really not a whole lot they can do, and so it's delaying the very goal and making it harder to achieve the very goal that a lot of these conservatives say is the reason why they yeah in the first place.

Function well in the short term. It means that whatever discussions that the Republican majority in the House was having, or more importantly, the work that many in the Republican Conference demanded to be done on the individual spending bills. On the surface, this is about spending. And I say, on the surface, there are lots of different factors, but on the surface, kicking McCarthy out was about spending and the fact that he made a deal with Joe Biden about spending levels that the fiscal conservatives client felt some of them. I don't want to suggest that they're not genuine, because some of them truly are fiscal conservatives and they didn't like that there wasn't more of a cut and spending. But if that is their goal, then what do they want to do. They want to or should want to work on legislation for each their twelve thirteen spending bills for each part of the government. They should want to work on those like right now to figure out how to cut spending in the way that is legitimate and is more that they're cutting fat, not bone. Let's just say that on a lot of these agencies, they can't do that right now, Sophia, because they're not functioning, because I don't want a speaker so heat the committees. I mean, maybe they're quietly talking, they're quietly, you know, trying to figure it out. They're pretending like what's going on at the top of the of the food chain. There is not happening, But there's really not a whole lot they can do, and so it's delaying the very goal and making it harder to achieve the very goal that a lot of these conservatives say is the reason why they yeah in the first place.

How do the conservatives explain why they're willing to shut the government down over their desired cuts to spending programs like you know, chips and other things that literally support children, the child tax credit, funding for education, but they were okay giving a trillion dollar tax cut to the wealthiest in America. How does a party explain that when most of their voters are living paycheck to paycheck.

How do the conservatives explain why they're willing to shut the government down over their desired cuts to spending programs like you know, chips and other things that literally support children, the child tax credit, funding for education, but they were okay giving a trillion dollar tax cut to the wealthiest in America. How does a party explain that when most of their voters are living paycheck to paycheck.

It's a very different governing philosophy and fiscal philosophy. Look, not every conservative wants to cut chicks, but the governing and the approach to how involved government should be is quite different. Their idea, and that you can debate this for two days straight, is if you cut taxes and you put more money in the hands of the businesses and of people who have money, then it will trickle down. The argument with the Democrats make is that's not a thing. That's not a thing that actually happens in real life. And they're in lies. One of the many debates that the parties have. You know what, Sofia, I have to tell you that I would much rather see a debate about these policies then listen to people tell lies about election interference.

It's a very different governing philosophy and fiscal philosophy. Look, not every conservative wants to cut chicks, but the governing and the approach to how involved government should be is quite different. Their idea, and that you can debate this for two days straight, is if you cut taxes and you put more money in the hands of the businesses and of people who have money, then it will trickle down. The argument with the Democrats make is that's not a thing. That's not a thing that actually happens in real life. And they're in lies. One of the many debates that the parties have. You know what, Sofia, I have to tell you that I would much rather see a debate about these policies then listen to people tell lies about election interference.

I agree.

I agree.

I mean, at least they're debating ideas. It's ugly and messy, and it's bumpy, and it's all of those things, but it's about like policy. There they're talking about policy. Look, some of it is personal. Some of the Republicans who got rid of Kevin McCarthy did it because they were just mad at him so worrying about see it. It was revenge for whatever reason.

I mean, at least they're debating ideas. It's ugly and messy, and it's bumpy, and it's all of those things, but it's about like policy. There they're talking about policy. Look, some of it is personal. Some of the Republicans who got rid of Kevin McCarthy did it because they were just mad at him so worrying about see it. It was revenge for whatever reason.

But this, this is what, at least for me as a you know, a voter, really stresses me out is that we seem to have lost the plot on how to make the country better for everyone, and now everyone just wants to win, and even the fact that you know, look, I don't like the guy. To be clear, my personal opinion doesn't matter who agrees with me or not. I'm not a fan of Kevin McCarthy. I don't like the way he has supported a lot of what feels deeply anti democratic and anti American to me personally as a voter. And you know, I live in California, so here we are. But what's wild to me is to see his ousting and then people in the party talking about how they want to elect Donald Trump Speaker of the House, even though the Republicans have a rule that you can't be Speaker of the House if you've been indicted. So but we know that they love to go around their own rules, like you know, for example, with the Supreme Court. So it feels like we are descending into real personal chaos, which is stressful for our government. Do you think that the chaos around this speaker issue will make it more likely that we do have a shutdown after the next deadline?

But this, this is what, at least for me as a you know, a voter, really stresses me out is that we seem to have lost the plot on how to make the country better for everyone, and now everyone just wants to win, and even the fact that you know, look, I don't like the guy. To be clear, my personal opinion doesn't matter who agrees with me or not. I'm not a fan of Kevin McCarthy. I don't like the way he has supported a lot of what feels deeply anti democratic and anti American to me personally as a voter. And you know, I live in California, so here we are. But what's wild to me is to see his ousting and then people in the party talking about how they want to elect Donald Trump Speaker of the House, even though the Republicans have a rule that you can't be Speaker of the House if you've been indicted. So but we know that they love to go around their own rules, like you know, for example, with the Supreme Court. So it feels like we are descending into real personal chaos, which is stressful for our government. Do you think that the chaos around this speaker issue will make it more likely that we do have a shutdown after the next deadline?

I mean maybe because one of the issues. Maybe that's the honest answer, maybe even into possibly maybe even I'll dip my toe into probably, because it just depends on who the speaker is. One of the last straw for Kevin McCarthy with many of those eight was agreeing to keep the government open and do it with democratic votes. Because of the narrow Republican majority. You're talking four or five votes, It is not it's almost impossible to believe that a government, that the government can stay open without democratic votes. So then that that poses the question is that is this whole thing going to happen to the next speaker if they allow that, and are we going to be in the same cycle or is it just because people were just like done with Kevin McCarthy and that it was so personal that maybe the answer is no, we don't. These are all unanswerable questions right now, and you know it's mid October, we're talking about a month from now.

I mean maybe because one of the issues. Maybe that's the honest answer, maybe even into possibly maybe even I'll dip my toe into probably, because it just depends on who the speaker is. One of the last straw for Kevin McCarthy with many of those eight was agreeing to keep the government open and do it with democratic votes. Because of the narrow Republican majority. You're talking four or five votes, It is not it's almost impossible to believe that a government, that the government can stay open without democratic votes. So then that that poses the question is that is this whole thing going to happen to the next speaker if they allow that, and are we going to be in the same cycle or is it just because people were just like done with Kevin McCarthy and that it was so personal that maybe the answer is no, we don't. These are all unanswerable questions right now, and you know it's mid October, we're talking about a month from now.

Interesting, do you do you have thoughts on who might be the next Speaker of the House or do you not want to speculate?

Interesting, do you do you have thoughts on who might be the next Speaker of the House or do you not want to speculate?

I mean, look, we know who's running Jordan and Steve Scalise, and as of this moment when we're talking, neither of them has the two seventeen. I guess it's two seventeen. Right now, it become speaker because our Speaker of the House is a constitutional position. It is not the lead leader of a party, in which case you only need the majority of your own party. You need the majority of the sitting House of Representatives, and right now they don't have it. Is it possible that somebody drops out and that changes. Sure, you still have the moderates or the people who were okay with Kevin McCarthy saying we're not voting for anybody because we want McCarthy back in there. I interviewed Mike Lawler, a Republican from New York, over the weekend, and he's on McCarthy and he that's what he wants. So when you can only afford to lose because they can't rely on Democrats, I don't want to begrudge democrats. I mean, it's understandable Democrats when they were in the majority, they couldn't rely on Republicans to vote for Nancy Pelosi either, so she's not the way it works. So because they can't rely on Democrats, they have to have a true consensus person who can get two hundred and seventeen, which means they can only whomever this Republican is can only lose less than a handful right Republicans right.