Hi everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to work in progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Hello everyone, I am so thrilled to introduce you all to my guest today, the incredibly insightful, thoughtful, and multi talented Chris Meyer. Chris is a former filmmaker and a funeral homeowner, a writer, an entrepreneur, and a licensed New York State attorney who clearly has had a fascinating life path. Chris graduated from both Brandeis University and Vermont Law School, where he earned a j d And a Master as an environmental law and policy. However, he'd always dreamed of making films, so Chris began his career by writing, directing, and producing a lot by film called Black Is Weight. After realizing that making a living as a filmmaker came with tremendous challenges, to say the least, he took an opportunity in the funeral home industry and went on to own and operate multiple funeral homes. Pretty big twist. Right After years spent in the funeral home industry, Chris was inspired to write his first book based on everything that he had learned watching families go through some of their most vulnerable moments. It's called Life and Twenty Lessons What a Funeral Guy Discovered about Life from Death. It's an introspective, heartwarming nonfiction story about love and loss and living our best lives from the perspective of a man who was constantly surrounded by death. Chris went on to write a second recently published novel called The Wood, a raw and powerful portrait of the inner workings of the filmmaking industry. And in addition to his two successful novels, Chris is also a tech executive, most recently having built fun and Moving dot com, the world's largest exercise platform for lively adults over sixty. In my conversation with Chris, we discussed his early years growing up in New York, his less than traditional career path, his debut film, the experience he had building a life in Los Angeles, how he knew he was ready to make a change, what he learned from running funeral homes, how this pivot led him back to writing, and what it was like to release his first novel, and of course so much more enjoy So, before we get into how you wound up writing a book about how to live from from lessons on how people were dying. I want to go back. I always like to ask my guests about where things started for them. So where where did you grow up? What was what was ten year old Chris into? Yeah, so that's I grew up in Westchester County, New York, oddly enough, a town called Pleasantville, if you can believe that. And it was. It was sort of an idyllic childhood, about thirty five miles north of New York City suburbia. A lot of men rode the train into New York City, and ten year old Crisp just sports and loved. I was the youngest of three brothers and just loved my family, always have and had a great mom and dad. Who you know. I just did the regular things like Little League and boy Scouts and and that kind of thing. So very idyllic childhood. I'm older than you, guys, so I was more of a child of the seventies. And it was riding bikes around the neighborhood. It was the ice cream truck, the good humor man, it was catching fireflies. You know. It was really I mean, it sounds sad be But that was the childhood, um, and it was pretty wonderful and I was very very lucky. Yeah, it was, it was. It was a great childhood. That's so lovely. What what what's the dynamic in a household with three boys? You know? Were you and your brother's really close? Were you destroying stuff all the time? You know? What? What? What was that? Yeah? So in our family, it's very prototypical. You know, I think you're an only child, right, and so is my mom. So I have a lot of little knowledge there. But in our family, it was very much. My firstborn brother was the type a striver. My middle guy was sort of that, you know, lost in between the two big personalities, and I was the you know, the cute little one and the mama's boy, Mama's baby. And so that was the dynamic very much. And we were close. Um, we did a lot of My older brother and I. I played a lot of sports together. And my middle brother and I were sort of the the guys who would play under the oak tree in the shade tree with our cars and we would you know, talk out those stories of whether they were battles or race cars. Um. That that was my childhood, and I was very got to be a lot closer with my middle brother because we were closer in age, I think, and um, yeah, again, we had a great time. It was it was the seventies. It was chill and your mom lets you go out and play. It's it's it's a different world. But I live for sure now with my children. When when you talk about you and your middle brother, you know, creating the stories with whether it's like figurines or toy trucks or I don't know, g I Joe's do you think that that's where you got a passion for storytelling, Like, like when you think about it now, can you see yourself kind of creating those things back then? You know? I, like you said, I never thought about it at the time, but in going back, I think it was so great for me about the childhood is that there weren't video games, right, and my children and I'm sure you or you're on your phone all the time and we're just so iPhone centric or and and that's maddening to me because the creativity of being able to just open the door and go out back and play with your brother and just or play with the neighborhood kids, and it was so non technological and it was just a different time. And my wife constantly says that, She's like, you know, we can't we can't want for them what we had. It's a different world, and we can encourage them to go outside. But we talked about it all the time. One time, when my kids are on there, when they were younger, they were on the phone the whole time. We were like, you get outside, get outside and play. And my wife and I it was like an experiment, right. We watched from the window and we tried to see them in the dirt, and they didn't even know how to play, you know, and the dirt was like dirty to them, and that was so foreign to me. And uh, but it's that's the reality of where we live now. I think, yeah, you know, it's a bygone era, but it's sad, but you know, it is the way it is. I know I miss it too, though, that that idea of just being able to go out and plays. You have a neighborhood similarly that you grew up in that you can hang with kids or no. Yeah, I had a I had a period of my life a couple of years where We lived in a really small town in central California, you know, like five thousand people, um central California coast. So I played outside a lot. They're like on ranches and in the neighborhood and we'd walked to school, you know, through these neighborhoods that were kind of nestled in these huge forests of pine trees. I mean, it was really really amazing. And and I think about how the imagination can really fire when there isn't always a screen in front of your face. And I can't imagine what it would be like, you know, to be a kid born into a world where everyone has a smartphone. It must be crazy, it must be insane. And also you wonder about the creativity. Right for me, is that time of just and I see it more with my younger son. He can take those figurines and we my wife and I talked about listening to his story, how he plays and how he enunciates, you know, the different parts that he's playing. It's it's it's actually hilarious to listen to and very rich. But those are the synapses that you wonder are they connecting in the brain if they're just you know, being fed their Instagram feed or whatever else. Right, Um, so it's incumbent upon the parents to do that, to to encourage that. But at the same time, you're like, especially right when we're in quarantine, there are times my wife and I were like, thank god, he has Xbox to go. He could you know, we could spread out a little bit and he could have his you know, fun time with his friends. And it's it's a different style of play. But you know, um, you know where maybe eight months ago we were like, just stop with the Xbox now, Yeah, thank you lord. So I'm I wonder also what one of the three lines might be, because you talk about the impact of being outside, being in the outdoors, that what that had on your childhood. And I know that you went to law school in Vermont, uh to study environmental log right, right, So was that was that born out of a passion for the outdoors of that kind of boy scout mentality, or or did you decide you wanted to study environmental law for a different reason. Well, I was intrigued by Vermont because they had this program where you had you got a master's if you went straight through the summer. So I went to law school September to May, and then I stayed there and I went to get into a master's program straight through the summer. So I was for two years. I got a j d. And a master's degree. So that's why it was born out of that. Um Vermont was obviously a wonderful place to go to law school. The ironic thing of it all in in uh environmental law, the good paying jobs on the ballooning side, right, you know, that's the thing like Excellent Mobile is trying to get right, I mean, but that's the truth. Right. So I was working at the super fund brands Environmental Protection Agency in New York City and you know, a starting attorney in New York City, the Environmental Protection Agency is making thirty five dollars and how do you live in New York one? You know, But that that was the reality, and it was an unfortunate reality. And I think that's what kind of drove me. I didn't know that I could be working for polluting, you know, or trying to get out of the Clean Water Actor all these great laws and um I think that was the genesis for me getting into some the creativity of of making a movie. And I made a little budget film in New York City, UM called Black Is White, which is on YouTube, and it was I flip flopped the races. I my African American actors played white people and the white actors played the black people. And it was a small thing. Went to a bunch of film festivals. I didn't get into Sundance, and so I just loaded up my car and I drove to l A to try to be a writer. So that was crazy time. Did you write that film? I wrote, directed, and produced. Yeah. I made it for a hundred thousand dollars in New York City, in and around New York City, and yeah, it was a great experience, and um, you know it was. It came out in the ninety three or ninety four, uh, and I was inspired by the l A race riots, and I just I just didn't understand. I just until to this is the day. The whole idea of of race relations bugs me because I just don't get it. I mean, I get it, but I don't understand that. I tell one of the stories in the book is when I went into UH, when I started in the funeral industry, and I walked into the prep room and there were these two bodies here right, there was an African American body and a white body and they were splayed I was shocking. They were splayed open, you know, doing an embalming, and I just stopped that the shock was one thing, but then I just stopped and I looked for a second and them, like, the insides are exactly the same. You know. It's like we're human beings and we make such a big deal of these outer you know, meat suits that I call them, right, but that was one of the most profound things. And then again, I think you're hitting on it. There are these maybe ten year cycles of reminding you that these are the stories you're telling, and you're telling there's a reason you're telling these stories over your lifetime. So um yeah, And how interesting that this first film that you made was really to use your words in order to flip flop the kind of hierarchies that come from this culture of supremacy that actually isn't rooted in anything, because as you're acknowledging, we're all human beings. To muse on how ridiculous it is that we treat people differently depending on what they look like, you know, just out of college, when when you're starting to put your mark on the world, and then all those years later to quite literally see that we're all the same on the inside, and to have that knowledge that that kind of clarity of equality emphasized and confirmed in such a biological way. I must have really like, that must have been a really intense experience to see people's insides on on the table. It was everything because it was twofold, right, it was twofold intensity, two fold intensity. Right. You walk in and I was again, I'm a screenwriter, I'm a lawyer who's a screenwriter for ten years, and I'm walking into a prep room for the first time and seeing these bodies like that. That's shocking enough. But then I don't know, my brain went somewhere and it was just like, oh my god, there's a reason for me being here, you know, and it's I don't know, you don't want to get too huhah and you know out there, but it was just profound for me. And it's a it's we we waste too much time on it, and I don't want to minimize it in any way, shape or form. But let's move on, you know. Let's yeah, good stuff. I bet, I bet you wish people who looked like us would stop doing all the terrible ship we're doing in the world. To people who don't look like us, it's like, come on, what are we doing? What's happening? You know? And it is? It's it's funny. I whatever political you say, you just gotta wake up. Man. It's just it's just such a waste of time. Need this well, the lessons you know, to your point, what we waste time on, the things we can kind of miss in the in the time that we're living that you learned in this second phase of your career, I really want to get into. I also want to know what happens in the middle because to your point, you you made this movie V you moved to l A. You are a lawyer who's working as a screenwriter. What are you writing? Working is a subjective? Okay, I don't mean trying to make it as a screenwriter. But you spent ten years here in l A. So what was it that allowed you or or gave you the faith to make the switch and to come here and to try to do that? And then what do you spend the next ten years doing? Yeah, So the only thing I can attribute it to is I have to say, it's got to be my parents, right. They instilled in me my father when I was a freshman in high school, I saw him leave a company, a steady job and create, uh, this massive company that turned out to be a massive company out of our our living room, you know. And I would be at night. There would be people coming over moonlighting and helping my father, and my father would obviously pay them to build this business. And I saw it that girant, that colonel of an idea in his head sprout to something larger. And that's the only thing I can really think of that I saw. My father had so much joy for what he did. He was a civil engineer, and I don't know if you know anything about civil engineers, but it's a really boring thing. It's about, you know, where up building goes and how many a parking spaces and drainage. But I saw in him the joy that he had every day in doing it. And it wasn't a sports guy, but he loved it. And you could see the smile and the excitement on his face. And so I think that he gave me that kind of courage to say, just load up your car and go and just live the life that you want to live and l a as you know. I mean, I don't have to tell you it's it's brutal. I mean it's brutal without any connections. And um, I was just loving it. And I was very fortunate it. I worked for a guy named her Brits who was probably one of the foremost fashion photographers before his untimely death. And he had a production company and I had a friend who was a production manager and hired me. It's just a grunt, and so I got to you know, I had a great job. I would like pick up Elena Christiansen at the chateaum Armant in my little car and driver to the set, you know, Thendy Crawford and you know it was Daniel Postova. And I was a grunt on these shoots, these high fashioned shoots, and it was great. I mean I would make some money that I could go right for a couple of months and I would live commercial to commercial and that was how I survived. Luckily, I got hired by Paramount Classics on the Paramount lot to do their Academy Award campaigns every fall season. So it was like October November to UM February. They would try to push their films and send out screeners to all uh Amphis people, the Academy people, and that was another job. So there were just those those kind of fringe jobs that no one really knows about. Um, but you can survive doing it. And that's how I survived. And you met your wife while you were in l A. Correct, I did at the eighties night in Santa Monica. She was dancing on the stage, yes, and so that's what we were there. From from that night forward, we've been together. Yeah, it was and it was funny because it was a blind date and she was from like she was working at some small university in like Corona, you know out if you know l A, it's it's it's the Inland Empire, and and it just was very happenstance. But we just struck up a nice friendship and you know, from there took it so, um it it's a pretty it's a maddening place. I found l A to be quite maddening. I found it to be quite cruel in terms of trying to become a writer, and it's it's a it's a hard process and to get a manager and then to get an agent and then to slowly get yourself in the door and writes scripts. Um. It actually is the genesis for another book that I'm I'm writing about Hollywood and a romantic comedy set in Hollywood, because I feel like the layperson who is in Iowa wants to really know how Hollywood works. And there's been a couple of good films like The Player or Swimming with Sharks or certainly Entourage on the TV front, But that to me is very intriguing right now, how Hollywood work. Yeah, so you're out here, you're building a life, You're you're working in the industry, and you know, we all have to start doing grunt jobs that are brutal, and that that I get. You know, you you meet your now wife, you're making a life together, and then you decided to leave l A. When when was this and why? Yeah? So that was pretty We had my son, my first son, and um, I think that was the the realization of many things. I had probably put off adulthood longer than most men could. I was in my late thirties, and you know, we remember running over to Cedar Sinai and doing all the you know, mommy and daddy and me classes over there, and when he came out, I mean, it was just it was such a shock to my system to see the child and say, wow, you know, that was adulthood for me because then it was like, hey, yo, you gotta start teaching me about all this and and how how am I going to grow up? And you know, so that was the profound impact for me. And it was just what do we do? Because I was making it. My wife was working in Westwood and she was carrying us, but she said, I want to be a mom and we had to make a decision. So that was a decision that that changed my life in so many ways. So what walk us through the decision? What? What did you decide to do? Where did you go? Well, you know, it's funny because you're a screenwriter and you're like, wow, I've been out of law. I'm a licensed attorney in New York. But I was like, I don't want to be an attorney because I knew you it was gonna be seven. I wanted to be a dad too. I want to be involved in this child's life. And so it was what are the auctions go back to New York, your my family or go up north where her her family is from. And she's like, I'd like near my family if that's okay, And I was like yeah, And she had this This is the crazy story. She had a friend who was a mortician who would be like at every family gathering and he would he would just hound me and say, Chris, if you ever want to be in business, this business is so solid, there's always people dying and it's a great business. And I was like, you know, no, no, you know, just like you would look at, you know, someone like say that to you. And and then honestly, when we had my son, I was like, I think that's the best option that I have right now. So I slept on his couch and I scouted up in the northern California area, just doing my due diligence, and lo and behold, we came upon a funeral home that had been in the community since nine I was having some financial troubles, and I bought it. And from that day forward, it was like, Wow, that that was the life changer. And so how how did you do that? I mean, did that require getting a small business loan? I mean, because that that's a big entrepreneurial shift. To buy a business, and I'm sure there's people listening going okay, but how did you do that? Correct? So was super fortunate my parents had money and they helped us. I did go to the SBA exactly like you talked about, there's a small business. There's something called SCORE, which here are essentially retired businessmen who donate their time to advise you had to run a business, start a business, what you need to think about. So I went to the local SCORE chapter many times. They gave you business plans that See. The ironic thing about starting a business is that I purchased a business that had been in the community since nine and two thousand and four. So I went to the bank with all these documentations saying, this is a thriving business. Here are the financials. And they looked at me and they said, yeah, but you have no experience. And I was like, I have a mortician, he's licensed, I have everything, he's you know, a friend of the family. And they're like, yeah, no, you know. So that was the irony of it all. You have a thriving business that is well it wasn't driving at the time, but we had all the financials and we knew we could turn it around, but the bank doesn't want to take a chance on you. So we um my parents made this incredible gesture of kindness for me and my family, my new family, and we said, well, listen, we only need it until the bank has agreed that, you know, if we have two years of good sound financials, then we'll give you a loan. And that's what we did, and it was it was such a great experience because you had this thing hang over your head, this financial burden to your parents who took this massive risk on you, and I had a newborn and I was like, there is no way I'm gonna do anything but make this thing succeed. So I think that was like this this super fire under under me. This just NonStop work and run home and work and run home, and so I couldn't let it fail. Yeah, Well, and not having an option, I think is is a great motivator. You know, you know, there's no way, there's no way you're going to let this thing go down in flames. I'm curious about the shift in line of work, because to go from writing to running a funeral home, that's that's a big shift. Did you have hesitations about going into the business. I mean, I mean, I know that you knew this guy, your wife's friend, who who was a mortician, So I imagine he had a lot of information to share and and could tell you a lot and answer a lot of questions. But I'm still sitting here going what's going through your head when you're thinking about doing this? I think that I think that it can't fail was the biggest thing that was going through my head. And I think that, you know, in making that movie in New York, I was had to be mindful of the budget because I had a finite amount of money, So I was watching every single penny where it was spent, how it was spent, And again going back one step further to watching my father and watching what he went through and listening to the conversations at the dinner table that he was having with his contemporaries. He was really He and my mother were just they would share everything. It was an open book. So I would literally see spreadsheets on the tables and I would ask about them, and they would give me all the firsthand knowledge. So that's that I would have to say was probably the greatest gift. And the key is what most leaders say is surround yourself the people that are smarter than you. So I was very good at that. I knew that. I you know, it was not the smartest guy in the room and on every subject. So finding quality people, I thought that was that That was probably the best advice some of my dad. My dad was super intelligent. He was the guy, but that wasn't me. And I think you have to understand that introspection to be able to look in the mirror and say, yeah, that's not my strength or this is my strength, and you know, surround yourself. For me, that's what That's what it was. Surround yourself with great people. So you've got these lessons kind of under your belt and you realize now you have a place to apply them. But like you mentioned earlier, now you're in rooms with dead bodies. What was this like at first? What how does a funeral home work? What is it like to it's I'll tell you it's tough, especially coming never having any experience in that business, and you know, just watching how it's done, getting a call right to the funeral home and the person is either in their home, they're in the hospital, they're at the corner's office. And the most tragic ones were generally when they were at home, right, and you would find people in various positions, in various parts of the house. I mean, everyone doesn't die with a beautiful blanket and afghan across their chest. You know. That's that's kind of how we think of death. I mean, it is an It is a rough and ugly business. And um, you have to go and be respectful. That's the other thing, because you're walking into a hornet's nest. Generally speaking, these people, especially in the home right, they've been with their loved one, you know, probably for a protracted period, and they're hurting. This is someone they care about dearly. There haven't been eating right, they haven't been drinking right. There. Family comes in, right, there's always that hair trigger aspect of everything. You know, the unlost brothers coming in to say his final goodvies and you know that he he couldn't stand mom and dad and or you know, it's there's that whole dynamic and as the guy who's coming in to take mom away, you have to kind of quickly suss up all those personalities and not step on on anyone's toes and then get her, you know, on the gurney in a respectful manner and then you know, take her to the funeral home. So that the sort of the like you said that, the nuts and both the prettiness of it all was very very shocking. And I think for me it was really tough because I'm the kind of guy that I get emotionally involved, you know. I I started looking at the faces and I start seeing the expressions on the faces, and I think that's what was very very drainy, because you get caught up in their story. You know, we're thinking, what if that was my mom? Right? Yeah, I mean it sounds like it takes an emotional toll, and if it doesn't, I don't see that. I don't I didn't see the flip side. I think that was it for me. So is It's like I didn't understand how you could just make it a business and how you could just go in there and do your job and just be a robot. Like for me, that didn't work either. Like I wanted, I wanted to be able to look the man or woman in the eye and say, hey, you know, hold their hand and say I got you, I got you here. I'm gonna treat your loved one like it's my mom or dad, right, And I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, I'm seven years in now, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't know if I could do this. You know, I was so drained every night, and and the constant like you know, empathy that you're having for these families. You're starting to think like, hey man, I gotta be careful so I don't get taken down with this all. So yeah, that was I think that's where the writing came out of. You know, I I figured after that seven to ten year period, I'm like, I gotta I gotta start putting some of this on paper because I can help people. I know, I can help people who are living by like saying hey, you know, smack them upside of the head with the book and say read this. You know, you gotta you gotta stop. I think, you know, feeling sorry for yourself or feeling having bad feelings for your brother or sister. Gotta wake up. It's all gonna be over a short amount of time. So yeah, that was that was it for me. When when you first got there and you know, you mentioned it's emotional, it's it's hard to look at people who are losing their loved ones, to to know how to move in those rooms with them, to hold space for their experience, to do that respectfully. And then to your earlier point about what you saw when you first walked into a prep room, there's also like medically technical procedures involved here. It's it's a it's a physically brutal business. Was it was it strange to witness those things, to actually see how bodies have to be processed, to to see, you know, the sort of space between the emotional experience of grief and then the and then the stuff that has to be done with what remains. Yeah, and I think it's you know, it's beast lay person doesn't know anything about that because the behind the curtain stuff is not pretty, you know, and as you can imagine, the preserve a and of a body, or the dressing of a body and care for a body after that sort of post mortem period is brutal. And there are professionals and I was not licensed and I did not do that portion of the prep and them bombing that is a very specific thing, but witnessing it, you know, I I talked about there's two ways that could go right in the funeral industry, it's a very notorious heavy drinking industry to sort of dull sort of these emotions. Or you could do the opposite and get home and just be overjoyed. And I think for me, I had this son to go home to, and I was so overjoyed to share. You know, I knew what I left, and I knew that this was a new beginning. And then we proceeded to have two more sons. So I think for me, I call it sort of the grand reminder. It was I knew what my work was, and it told me to go home and play with your kids and laugh and try to coach everything that they did, and be at school and when they had something in the day, take the time to do it. It was that's what was so profound for me. It was that reminder that, Hay, Chris, go this work will be here. You have qualified people who can run this place while you're not here for an hour going to your child school. And it was great. I mean I literally that that made me happy. So I took it as a positive and I just try to make it work for me. Is there a point in hindsight that you look at where you realize you started looking at your life differently that that you started in the face of grief, focusing on gratitude at home. Can you see when that happened? Well, there are many instances, and I think they keep coming over and over again. But I think one of the most profound for me was a woman who lost her daughter in an auto accident. And it was the craziest situation. She was a teenage girl and she had a surviving sister who they were like best friends. And she came into an arrangement one day with this other daughter and they said, I have an unusual request. And I said, you know, what are you talking about? I mean, you know, in your you're sitting I know exactly you're sitting there, and You're like, great, what's coming next? So she and her daughter proceeds to tell we'd like to take her and I said, what are you talking about? And she said, we would like to take her with us. We know you've picked her up and she's in the back with you. We want to take her in the car for one last right around town to the old Plants with some of her friends. And I'm like, this lady is out of her mind. Right. And so I went to the woman who runs the place, and I said, is this even legal? And she's said absolutely, there's no preclusion for us to do that, and you can allow that. How is this even possible? So she proceeded with her daughter and a couple of friends to put her in the body. This is like weekend to Bernie's right. I mean, I'm thinking I call it weekend at Burmandadet. And they drove to like where they used to drink beers down by the river. They even went to Mickey d S through the drive through. So she comes back, you know, an hour later, all the friends there, and she's coming down off a high. They're all giggling and they're there. It was almost like this frenzy kind of giggle. And I was just like, I can't believe I even witnessed this or allowedness. And the friends leave and I'm looking at the mom and I'm like, are you okay? And and she's like no, And I said what's up? And she's like I need to see her? And can I can I stay and see her? And so you know, we do that all time to put her the this scene in a side room and they sit and you closed the door and they set half some nice quiet time and I had work to do in the back, so I went in the back and I was doing sort of the business pane of the bills in the back. And it was about two hours later and I'm like, I've got to go home at six thirty seven o'clock and I'm ready to go. So I come back. Everyone's gone in the funeral home and it's just her and I opened the door and there's you know, her fifteen year old daughter laying there with her, and she's in a chair holding her daughter's hand. And she looked turned and looked at me and she goes, she's like a half to go right, And I said, well, it's it's closing, and she's and I looked her in the eye and in that instant I knew it wasn't over for her, right, And I said, you know, would you like to stay? And she said, are you kidding me? And I said no, And I took the key off my key chain and I gave it to her and I said, I'll lock up. You can stay all night if you want, and just leave the tea in the outside mailbox. So obviously I went home that night, my little boys there and you know, talking him in, obviously holding him a little extra tight tonight and rubbing his head. And I went back the next morning and she was there and I went in and and I said okay, and she was still there, and you know, she got up and she gave me a hug, and she said you're a good man, and and left. But I always think about that time. The critical time for me is when that loved one says goodbye to for the last time. Right, this is the last time she will see her daughter. She is dead, but she will not see her again. What does that moment feel like? How can you, as a businessman quote unquote rush someone out in that moment? Right? So um I I I literally saw the woman a year later in the grocery store and I went up to her and I introduced myself and she just looked me in the eye and and she gave me a hug and she just said that again, she said good man. She walked away, and I felt so bad. I came home and told my wife. I was like, I should have just walked by her in that grocery store because I think she was healing. And I brought her back, you know, just by saying, hey, I'm Chris from the funeral home. And and I knew she had a glimpse of, you know, the kindness for me. But I could also see that, you know, it almost felt to me like she had heeled and I brought her back and and gave her that memory again. But that was probably one of the great great moments for me the funeral industry. And again it turns out that I felt guilty about, you know, talking to her that year. Yeah, I mean, I get that, but I you know, I've I've never experienced what that woman did. But what I will say is when I've experienced grief, the grief doesn't go away. I can't imagine that that woman is going to heal from that per se. But I can't imagine that the fact that you never forgot her was meaningful to her, because really, you know that that has to me, and that you never forgot her daughter. And and I can't imagine what would be more comforting, you know, for someone who is walking around, you know, forever missing a piece of her heart. I I think that, you know, sometimes having those things recognized, sure is painful, but not because the recognition is painful. It's it's painful because the loss was painful. And yeah, I don't know, and you said it, you said it. It's it's so true because you were talking about grief and you're saying the grief doesn't go away, right, And I think we think that as a society, is that when the death happens there you know, you could read read a book and and you know, oh, my grief is gonna be gone in six months or eight months or not. You know, it doesn't work that way. And and that's I had a I was very fortunate. My mother's I told you, was an only child, and she had a father who lost his wife very early. And he and I grew up together and we're best friends. And that's exactly it. That grief, that love that I had for him, never goes away. And it's odd how it comes to you. And and and I heard your your thing about nature. For me, it comes to me in nature. I go on these early morning walks and there are trees around, and I knew he grew up in a sawmill in Germany and trees were everything to him. And I feel that, you know, I feel him, and and it's like it's almost like, I don't know, it comes in your chest and you're just like, wow, that reminder. But I don't think the grief the grief for me. I miss him, but it's like it's an honoring I see it as a hey man, I'm with you still, you know, And I like that. I really like that. That's the way I want to think of the grief. The early grief is tough though, anyway you slice it. Of course, I wonder if part of the reason it's so tough. I mean, obviously loss is tremendously painful, and yet I'm struck by the reality that death is something that touches everyone. You know. You when when you were talking about your book, there's a practical thing we have to say, which is we're all gonna die. But we have such a hard time as a society talking about it, knowing what to say to people who are going through it. Do you feel after all these years of holding the space that you do? Do you do you have hunches? You know? Why? Why do you think it's so hard for us to open up about it, to talk about it. I think it's a society we have a hard time with the emotions and I think, especially from a male perspective, you know, you're supposed to be this strong, you know, not show anything. I just I don't buy into that. It's it's very similar to what you and I just spoke about when we were talking about race. I think it's tough to talk about death because it's so darn permanent. And I think that, you know, that's why for me writing about something and spinning it to the positive and having appreciation, it's so necessary. And it's it's such a like you said, we're all going, it's we're all gonna go when we go, you let's let's have left our market in some way. And for me, again, this is not for everyone, but for me, it's family. For me, that's what it's always been. That's what I I just loved it. I had a great family. I still have a great family. And I think, you know, as a society, we want to have more and more and more and more friends and more material possessions and more of this, and I don't think you need it. And I think in many ways, as as horrible as a quarantine is, it's a great reflective moment to hit that reset. We'll get out in nature and like you said, how nature is actually doing better because we're all inside it is that collective reset. Um. I wish that people could just break down some more walls and not be so you know, I have to be strong in society. It's a It's a great thing to talk about, and certainly you're parents need to talk about it as they get older. Um. If it's nothing to be afraid of, we're all going you just hope it's not nice, not soon. Do you think there are things people misunderstand about death? Yeah, I think it's just what we spoke about. It's trying not to talk about it. I think I think it's the opposite. I think you want to talk about I want to draw those stories out of you. I want to understand how you're feeling in your brain that Grandpa is gone. What were those happy moments that you had with him? Tell me about those, because in telling them, it's cathartic and it gets it out. It's the people that are just tight and hold everything inside that it's gonna go one day, you're going to combust and this explode. I think it's so much healthier to just have those conversations and they're tough. I mean, there's tough. As much as we articulate this in a book or hearing it's something on YouTube or something like that. I know my parents are eighty years old, and it's hard to talk about it. You know, I don't know what it's been like at eight. Do you think about how much more do I have? What's tomorrow? Is it? Am I thinking five years from now? Am I thinking I'm just thinking put my feet on the ground tomorrow. It's a tough, tough subject, and I think it takes people like you and me did just say, hey, man, let's talk about it. What are you feeling, how's that going, how's that going for you? I'm sorry for your love, But tell me about that, tell me about what it's that amateur psychology of it, all right? We all need that, yeah too, to ask and to offer people a container, you know, to say to someone, I'll hold this space for you. I think can be really it can be really transformative. Can you walk us through some of the lessons that you write about in your book, some of the big aha moments you've had sitting with people in grief, because you referenced it earlier, your experiences in the funeral home have really helped you see what gets clear for people about what they actually need and what they don't and what's important. And I'm curious what some of those lessons have been. Yeah, I mean I talk about a lot of different lessons and about you know, family become a familionaire I talked about. I talk about the respecting of others, having a having faith or spirituality. Again, I don't just like the race. I don't want to get caught up in the religion. I think having some kind of some kind of foundation that works for you is great or if there's not some uh, actual religion, to have a spirituality that you're part of a greater good. I think one of a great lessons is to fail, and I wish you know, we all want to fail as much as we and because it means we're trying. If you're not failing, you're not trying. And I think one of another great lessons was a woman who who walked into the funeral home and I could see her checking things out with her husband and they came down. As she came into focus, she I could see the side of her face was like slump, looked like from a seizure or something. And you know, I said, can I help you? And she said, we're here to make funeral arrangements, and you know, I said, I have it all down in my head, you know, for who. Who's a mom, dad, grandma? And she said for me And I said and she said, I'm here with my this is my husband, and I know he can't handle this, so I'm here to tell you what I want. And I was like, oh my god, I mean, you know that that had never happened to me before. And I sat down with her and she had two children, and we went through the whole thing, and that for me, again was just so she didn't want. All she wanted to be was at home with her family. Right. She knew she was dying. She's the doctors told her, you have less than six months. So what do you do when someone tells you that? And so we went through everything, and she and I had this great talking about children and talking about you know, what she wanted and how she wanted it. And then one day, you know, the phone rang and uh, someone in the office said, Chris, you know, they requested you and I was like, you know who, I didn't recognize the name. And I went like I did, got in the car and the van and pick her up, and I drove there and I saw him at the front door, and he was her husband, was crying, and he saw me and gave me a big hug. And I walked in to that living room and I saw in the living room she was on a hospital bed with afghan and pictures of the kids and gatorade bottles and and and stuffed animals, and you could just see how much love was in the home. And it was not a fancy home. It was very modest, and and it just struck me because she had told me six months ago exactly how she wanted to go, and she did it right, and and it was just again one of those heartfelt moments where you're like, I can't believe this. I can't believe that I'm here. She was this living person describing exactly what you wanted six months ago, and now I'm here to take her. And that was that was just it was just an again in retrospect, it was probably one of the greater moments of reminders for me in learning about death. But it was so really savvy, you know, you to see someone living and then know them when they're living Usually it's just we'll get the call, go pick up the body, and you have no connection, right, and this this was very different. And I think another piggybacking on that was, you know, I talked a lot about you know, when we go home, you have these these moments and one of my middle son, you know, I have this uh routine of tucking the boys in, and you know, you have to go through each one of them. My wife laughs at me and she's like, I don't know how you do this. You know, twenty minutes of every child every night. And I was like, you know, what's better than that? So in those moments, you know, they they're relaxing for their day, and and I sat down with my middle guy and he said to me, just out of the freaking blue one, He's like, Daddy, what happens when you die? And then you know, you're like, oh man, where am I going with this? I mean, I'm in the business. I do it this every day. And my son, you know, obviously has articularticulated like what tell me what happens? And so I just went into this, you know what I believe, you know, my my story, and I talked about my grandfather who had passed, and how there is I believe in the heaven and that we go there and and it's this great grand place and and then he turns to me and goes, you know, but that how am I going to find you? It sounds like a really big place, and you know, I'm in tears at that point. I went in and I talked to my my wife and she's like, why are you crying. I'm like, I just had the most epic conversation with the seven year old that you could ever imagine. I mean, And so you have I have those moments, and especially in retrospect, they become you become like, wow, that's that's pretty that was pretty special. And and the gift I say of of being in this funeral business, it came back a millionfold right there. And that's just in that one instance, you know, So there are those. I think it's just you know that the message of time, you know, we that's the one thing you can't get more of, right, And I think you hear that a lot. But when you're in the funeral business and when the families are saying, hey, man, Chris, go home, take the time, go home and do with your children. And so I've lived like that and I feel pretty good. You know. It's kind of that has been a great sort of Lennissance in me, to just step off the habit trail of life. Step off the habit trail. I like that a lot. And and and to your point, the idea of go home, you know, have dinner with your family, coach your kids, soccer team, whatever it is, but be there more because that's the stuff every family is talking about when they're walking through your doors. And eat the cake. Eat the cake, right, eat that last I mean food, you hit it, talk about that, you know how you grew up? What what those are? Such fond memories food. You know, we're all like, you know, especially in l A, I was like, I want to get lean. I gotta get ripped, I gotta get organic. You know, I'm like enough, you know, eat the cake. Think about those moments with at Thanksgiving dinner when I looked down the left and I look right on these little cheesy Costco tables, right, but with a little and that's family and we're having a meal. And whether it's wther you have twenty people or you have three, or if you don't have true family those friends that we all have that we consider family break bread together. You know. Anthony Bourdain was that the king of that, right. I mean, he would travel the world over and he would he would just break bread because he knew he could break you down. It didn't matter your politics at that moment, right, we could just talk about the common interests of loving this great neal or this great break that to me is the good stuff that I feel that too. Yeah, do you think and I wonder about this, You know, these are big emotional observations and lessons you get to learn in your line of work. And I can't help but think about where our lines of work used to overlap. Do you think that death is accurately portrayed in what we see in movies and television? Is there anything about what you see that you would want to change? Well? I think it. I think it is. Especially there was that what was the two brothers in the funeral home? I think there was, I forget the name of the show, that there was a series back there, Yeah, so that was that was a very clear depiction. But I think what's hard to encapsulate is, like you talked about, is the time that grief, you know, in a movie where it's an hour and a half, right, and we're sitting there and you're hearing the stories, and you think there is an emotional component and we can tap into that. But grief is such this vast thing, and it's funny, right because it comes and goes for each of us in a different way. And I will always say to people, the amount of grief that you will feel commensurate with the amount of love that you felt for that person. And that's a good thing, right. So for me and my grandfather, this guy, you know, I was like son Rose and said on this man. So when he died, I was wrecked. And then I would look over at my other brothers who just who just weren't around. They were at college or law school, and I was there going to dinner with my grandfather would come to all my sports games, and you know, we just had a different relationship. And I was like, why are you not hurting like I'm hurting. And my middle brother, I remember it like it was yesterday. He said, I just didn't have that relationship that you had. You and Oopah were super close. Kupa's grandfather in German, and he it was and he wasn't jealous, he wasn't angry, he wasn't it was just, hey, Chris, you and him were best friends and that wasn't my relationship. So that I think is really important. If you're hurting, it's good because you had a lot of love for that person. Yeah. I love that well, Chris. As you know, the podcast is called work in progress, and my favorite thing to ask everyone who joins me for these conversations is when you hear the phrase, what comes to mind, whether it's personal or professional or or anything. Really as a work in progress in your life right now, I kind of feel like, are we all kind of works? I mean, that's what That's what's so great about your the title because I think you know it and again I think, uh, you're very introspective, and I think your connection with nature and it's really important. I think you know, as tell me if you felt this way, because as a young man, I was always like, you know, you're trying to like kind of keep up with the Joneses. And again I talked about that have a trail and you're trying to you think the magazine or the videos have showed you a way to live for we want them may back in the crystal and all this, and I think that we're all work in progress. Is whether you're a thirty seven year old woman, a fifty four year old man, an eighteen year old kid, we're all works in progress. And if we could tell our younger selves that, hey man, you've got time, go make the mistakes, now, that's the good stuff. For me, that's the good stuff. But I'm working in progress here. I don't have it all figured out. And if my eighteen year old self knew that, I think things would be a lot more relaxed. Right day. Is that that brick, right, whether it's that memory brick, and we're building a long term house here, and it's one brick at a time. You can't just throw everything off and have a house. It takes days, it takes years, it takes life time. So that's that's that's the work in progress. I love the title. Thank you, thank you so much, thanks for joining us today. I really am excited for people to hear this conversation and to read your book. Thank you, Thank you very much. I appreciate the time and giving me the opportunity have a great day. Oh my gosh, you too. This show is executive produced by me Sophia Bush and sim Sarna. Our associate producer is Caitlyn Lee, Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Crillion Anatomy m