Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Today's guest is Cil Richards. She is a national leader for women's rights and social and economic justice. For more than a decade, she served as the president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America and Planned parent Had Action Fund, where she worked to increase affordable access to reproductive healthcare and strengthen the movement for sexual and reproductive rights. Cecil is a hero and I loved talking to her about the work that she's done, her amazing mother, and her latest activism with Supermajority. Plus we discuss Make Trouble, her latest book, and so much more. Enjoy. I'm just thank you again. I'm so excited, uh to talk with you, and there is so much to discuss. I'm so excited for the listeners to get to spend some time with you, because you are a powerhouse and such an incredible leader. And from the outside, I would I would think too many people you seem like this, you know, fearless, unflappable icon. And I often think when leaders are seen really but you know what I mean, I think that's so often when leaders are seen in that kind of a light. While it is completely deserved, that can also be a bit conflated with you being you know, impenetrable or or unaffected. And I know, because I've had the pleasure of your company, that there is a an incredibly sensitive and dynamic woman in there, and so I'd love to start talking about her, you know, Cecilia the person, not just are fearless leader. So can we go back to the beginning were you? Were you a tiny firecracker like this as a child. Well, um, I think it's a good it's a good question about all of us, just sort of showing um, both our vulnerability and also the challenge right now, because I do think anyone who's not feeling somewhat worried or sometimes um, fearful, probably isn't paying attention. So I think it is a good is a good place to start. You know, I grew up in texas As, and as I said, growing up in Dallas, you know I was I lived in a family where my parents were fighting against everything that was happening. They were part of the civil rights movement, they were part of the farm workers movement. They were really trying to kind of banned with other progressives to make Texas a more hospitable place. So I think I did grow up. I mean, I had a very wonderful childhood. It was somewhat magical. You know, other families, I guess we're bowling, and we were doing politics and marching and organizing. And so I have to give my parents enormous credit for that. My dad, um, Dave Richards, turned to eight six yesterday and he's still fighting for civil rights. So it's kind of timely and and I'm really grateful for the for the parents that I have. Yeah, I mean, what an incredible thing that they not only that they were so progressive and concerned for community, but also that they brought you into it, you know, as a kid. I think so often people think children shouldn't be exposed to such serious things and they don't need to be worried about the world. But what a gift it is to give a child a perspective on how you really do have to show up for people and fight for people, and and what that kind of fight looks like. I imagine that informed everything for you as you grew up. Well, I get yeah, I have a couple of thoughts about that. I think it's a good point. So and actually a lot of moms now, whether I on book tour or running around the country listening to women, so many moms are now asking like, what do I do about my kids now? I feel like there's so many things happening in the world that I am worried about, I don't agree with, or you know, I want to change, And I just think I think the lesson has always bring your kids along with you, because you know, my experience having raised three kids is they don't They don't learn from what you say. They learn from what they see you do and how you spend your days, and the issues that you choose to be active on and in really affect their lives and how they how they kind of view their opportunities and responsibilities. The other thing that is, I actually wrote a book about this called Make Trouble. I'm kind of about my my life as an activist. I think the other thing that you learn as a kid is actually being an activist is a joyful life. It's not this life of sort of you know, oppression and worry all the time. It's actually you meet amazing people that share your values, that want to change the world, and that to me is invigorating and exciting, and particularly right now, I think the thing I hear from women the most is just that can feel very lonesome um where they where they live. And one of the reasons we started this new organization, UM Supermajority was to try to build community for women so that they don't feel so alone. I love that, and it is interesting I get asked about that as well, working in my own sort of activist circles and in the spaces that you and I overlap, and people say, isn't it depressing? And I'm just so stressed out and I don't think I can handle any more of this, And and what I always try to offer back is you feel stressed and depressed because you're in the midst of the onslaught, but you feel powerless to do something. And when you really dedicate time, space, energy resources to being an activist, you're doing something. You are taking your power back. You are out there helping in whatever way you can to change the world. And it won't make you feel more stressed, it will make you feel more in control. I couldn't agree more. Look, I just tell people like, turn off the television and go outside and get active, because you know, it's there's a whole world out there waiting for you. And the single most often asked question that I hear on the road or you know, in interviews, is what more can I do? And I do think this is a it's easy to forget that women in so many ways are more active now than ever before, and every generation of every background, and that is really exciting. I think that's what a lot of folks felt, not only women at the first March for Women right after the inauguration, as they begin it was the first sign that actually we were possibly the majority of the country and that there was a real sense of community and that that, to me, is what we have to continue to nurture and build on. And as you say, it makes you feel a lot better when you're actually working towards something. And I think that's the other thing we have to focus on now is that it's not enough to resist. I mean, women have been doing an amazing job of resisting policies and things the government is doing they don't agree with, but what women really want to do. I hear all the time is they want to actually imagine the world they want to live in and then go build that. And that to me is an energizing idea, UM, and something I think we have to nurture. Yes, because so much of the world has been shaped by men in power, and and I think it's so important to own that when we talk about wanting to change that. No one's out here trying to attack men or claim that all men are bad. What we're saying is when when a group with half the information has made a dred percent of the decisions, the decisions are not productively affecting the whole. And so if we can start making equitable decisions, if women can help imagine the future, if women can have as much control as they have in population numbers, society gets better for everyone, men included. We're not we're not trying to leave them behind, but we're certainly saying this hasn't worked out so well for any of us, including y'all, So why don't you give us a turn? Um. But something that I love so much. You were referencing your book and talking about making trouble, and I'm so just enamored with John Lewis. I think he is the most incredible representative and civil rights hero, and and I have just sat and I felt like I've absorbed inspiration via osmosis anytime I've been in a space where he's been speaking. And he always says that we have to make good trouble. We've got to get out there and we've got to shake up the system. And you talk about how all of us women demanding our rights and equity is also us making trouble. And I'm curious because you write in your book about the moment that your mom started to revolt against that role that she was quote unquote supposed to play. And I'm curious how that felt as a child, much less as as a little girl in that era, watching the matriarch of your household turn expectations on their head and show you what being a good troublemaker looked like. Well, of course, I was almost grown by the time my mom finally kind of rope free and realized she could do anything. I mean, she'd raised four kids, she'd been, as she would say, the perfect housewife. Uh you know, she as as mom used to say, if it was in the glossy magazines, she was doing it. Um. But then of course, she ran a campaign for Sarah Weddington, who wanted to run for the state House, and she kind of got hooked and realized she could actually use her brain, she could work, uh. And then of course she eventually ended up running for governor and becoming the first woman elected in her own right in the state of Texas. It was incredibly inspiring, but not only to me, honestly, to millions of people, not only women in the state of Texas who had always been sort of left out of the power structure. They've been left out of politics. And I think of Mom now, um, and how how much joy she would take in the fact that we now have a record number of women in Congress, a record number of women of color. I think of, you know, Lauren Underwood, the youngest African American woman ever to go to Congress, who came from Illinois. She is changing the face of what democracy looks like, what government looks like. And that was something that Mom always believed in. Um. She was a big she was a big supporter of other women, and nothing, nothing brought her more pleasure than seeing other women succeed. And that's kind of what I'm seeing in this moment. Sophia is that I've never seen so many women asked me tell me what other women are doing and how they're being successful and cheering them on. And that to me is like it's it's a real it's a real shift, it's a real change. And um, I think it's what's energizing women everywhere. I agree. I love it so much. I feel like we're we're exiting the era of competition and entering into an era of collaboration. And I love the way that it feels. And I love that you brought up Lauren Underwood. I'm so lucky. I I spent many years working on a job in Chicago, and so I had residency in Illinois for a long time and have held onto it for a while because I really do love it there. And I was able to sit down during her campaign and speak with Lauren and hear about all of her expertise coming from the health care system and where as an expert in that field, she saw the holes and how she wanted to be advocated for patients and for citizens alike. And I just was the most inspired by her campaign and the day she won, I was bowling on this is a very irrational reaction that I'm having. But I'm just so happy, right, I mean, Laurence Lauren is this interesting. I'm thrilled that you know her. And because i feel like I'm like on a national campaign to make her a household household word, because I'm with you anytime you need my help, Let's go, oh fantastic. No, because I mean she it's funny. She and I just did an event together in Washington, d C. And after hearing Lauren Underwood speak, everybody in the audience wanted to run for Congress. I mean, I think these I love the way that she and others are sort of take take, pulling back the curtain, saying hey, this is what the job is. Is what we do every day. It's really exciting. We get to make up we need, get to make a difference, we get to make policy. And honestly, it just it feels people begin to look at young women like Lauren. There's so many others. Ianna Pressley Um the first two Latina's ever elected to Congress from Texas. I can't believe it took us this long. But Veronica Escobar and Sylvia Garcia. Women look at these other women and say I could do that, and that to me is I think that's probably why we've had I think forty thousand women raise their hand in the last two years and say I want to be trained and run for office. That's how you actually begin to have representative democracy. And so many women who are going into office are there because there's something they want to get done. And as you say, Lauren's expertise in healthcare is really her driving passion and you can just feel it when you when you hear her talk. And I think that that's such a good message for anybody who's listening out there, that if you have something that is your reason for getting up in the morning, you know that thing that lights that lights your internal furnace, you can run towards that and and quite literally use that passion to change the world. And I think for so long, so many of us would think, well, but I couldn't possibly do that, that that has to be somebody who really knows what they're doing. And if I've learned anything in in my in my years, you know, becoming an adult, it's that even the best and smartest people in the room are still figuring it out as they go. There's no roadmap for how to build a better world or how to fix a problem, we have to create it ourselves. And so I had this sort of stunning realization that I was talking to my dad the other day and he goes, you cracked a joke last time you were here for dinner about all my platitudes, and I realized, I just speak in platitudes. And I said, well, I've realized cliches or cliches because they're true. So you know, the whole the adage of if if not us, then who, it's become an adage because it's true, and and really, if not now, then when. And it's been so incredible to see so many women stepping up and realizing that they've always had what takes and that they are the experts in the room, and that they do have the capability to do this. And I have to be honest, Cecil, you know, I don't think that so many of us would feel that way if we hadn't have had you, as be it a personal or or just an out there in the ether and in the press mentor to show us what it looks like, your your dedication to fighting for women, and your resilience and your unwillingness to back down in the face of some of the worst kind of vitriol that society has to offer. I just I think you are the ultimate badass, and I'm quite sure your spine is made of titanium. And I just I am so excited that you're here. Well, and I that's that's so over the top. But I guess I have a couple of thoughts. One is, um if I have one of my own sort of adage or really hack phrase that I use, it is start before you're ready. Because I think so many women and including me, I mean other you know, women who worked with me, we always think that there's this perfect moment when the stars are going to align, when our kids are going to be the right age, we're going to have all the right degrees, all the laundry is going to be done, and then it's gonna be time for us to take that next leap. And that was something I learned from my mother, because she know she was never the one they wanted to run. There was never anyone in Texas who came up to her and said, I think it's really time for a progressive women governor. She just did it anyway, and I do think that's what we women just have to be taking chances now, and I think that is what is I think exciting to see other women supporting women who are daring to challenge the status quo, jump in before they actually have all the quote unquote experience they need. Men have done that forever, and it's exciting to me that women are now um again, just not waiting for instructions, not waiting for permission, and just doing it. I love that. It makes me think of when Ruth Bader Ginsberg was interviewed and they said, well, how many women you know would satisfy you on the Supreme Court? You know what, what what would it take? And she said, well, I won't be satisfied until there are nine. And everyone was so she said, people were just you know, so shocked, like they balked at the statement. And she said, well, there's always been nine men, and none of you had a problem with that. And it's it's it's in those moments that you realize how silly these double standards are. And and I think about those leaders and you mentioned one, you know, you said that you you got to meet Sarah Weddington when you were sixteen. I believe, and she argued Roe v. Wade in front of the Supreme Court, what do you what do you remember, you know, as a as a teenage girl, watching your mom step into the foray of politics and and do all of this to your point, perhaps before she was read, Is there something that being in that arena, that that being around Sarah, that she said or did that that has always stuck with you? Well, I think that. I guess my overwhelming thought as as a teenager was like, how exciting it was to be able to see my mom in a completely different role other than running carpool and you know, making the perfect birthday cake and all the things that she'd always done, which works. You're great. I'm not taking that away from anyone, but it was. It was honestly such a revolutionary idea that um, that that mom could do her own thing, and it, I mean obviously changed the trajectory of my life. And I think that's again, I think that's why it's so important that we see women. I love the fact that, for example, now we have so many women running for president because it used to be and even when mom got into politics, there were all these rules. You know, she used to say you know, no patterns on television. Pick a hairstyle and stick with it. You know, there were all these rules about how you had to be. I love the thought that now that all kinds of different women can be in politics and you don't have to be this stock character. Um. That to me is when we're really going to have a true democracy, is that any kind of woman can run for any any person can can run for office and run for president. But those were the days where, yeah, there were a lot of rules and Mom just sort of steadily broke them and we always laughed at me. The thought that there was a you know, divorced, recovering alcoholic, progressive Democrat, uh Democratic woman who was elected governor of Texas was I mean, that broke every stereotype that that we had. Now, unfortunately that was then and it hasn't things. Things have kind of gone backwards in Texas. But I think a lot of women got got into politics because of her. Kathleen Sebeli. As I talked to, you know, former governor of Kansas, Janet Apolitano from Arizona, Governor of Arizona, they talk about going to girl governor school at the at the Governor's mansion in Texas when mom was trying to find any woman that she could that would run for office back in their home state. That's so cool, And you know, I love what you said that you know, you're not taking away from the more traditionally maternal things or activities that your mom participated in, because I think it's so important to talk about that that this isn't about having to pick one or the other. This is about supporting women, whether they want to be career women with no families, stay at home moms with big families, career women with families who juggle it all, which so many of you, including yourself do. I think that why it feels so amazing and groundbreaking is because for so long, for so many generations, once once humans became this, you know, agricultural society, and women were traded for dowries of goats like we were traded like property and it, and it became this modern structure where of course we didn't do that anymore. But also we were told that we couldn't really do anything but keep a home, you know. That was that was my grandmother's life. There was no other option for her. And I think that the reason that we talk about these things being revolutionary, isn't because we don't, you know, enjoy cooking with our families. Also, it's that we want to have the option. We want to have the choice, whether it's the most traditional or most progressive choice in the world. We just want women to be able to choose. And I think it's an amazing thing that in that generation of women who were so affected by watching your mom, so many women out there looking at her realized they had more choices than they had been told they did no exactly, And I mean, I think these a lot of the things that that my mom did, these are these are life skills. They're not just women's women's occupations. In fact, you know, before my three kids went away to college, I I insisted that every one of them, I've got two girls and a boy, everyone had to know how to put up a tent, him their own clothes, deep fry, because of course that's a dying art if you're not from the South. And they had to be able to make their own pie crest, you know, and not to me everyone. And so I do think it's there is a mythology that you're sort of one thing or the other, but the truth is now, you know, and you know that, Sophia, you've been in the work workforce forever. You know, almost half the workforce um is made up of women. Women are increasingly heads of households or certainly there's so many two to to two folks in the family that are earning a living, So it's not increasingly women expect that they're going to have the option to work and to pursue a career. More than half the college students are now women. And so I do think there's this false choice that in four really still too many women I think are are struggling with, which is you know, how do you how do you have a family, support kids if you choose to do that work in the workforce. And the truth is, and I hear this from women every day, we still work in an economy and that is essentially was never set up for women. The fact that we have no national child care plan or policy, and that so many women still are fighting for basic maternity benefits, it's crazy. So I do think that women have you know, we've kind of retrofit ourselves into workforce that wasn't created to welcome us. And it's one of the reasons that that I really felt like it was important to start this new movement because there are just issues that we know they are important to women, having childcare, having access to healthcare, all these but they're important to men as well. They're port to families. This isn't These are not women's issues. These are basic economic issue choose for millions of American workers and people. And when you look at peer countries and you see, you know, the peer countries that have both paid maternity and paternity leave, and you see the heightened productivity and their workforces, and you see the higher worker retention, people stay in jobs longer. It's because if we take care of people equally and respectfully, and we prioritize families and their wellness, everybody does better. And and this myth that we seem to be stuck in in this country that those are you know, women's issues or you've got to choose that. The data proves otherwise, and it and it seems like it should be such a logical, easy fix, but people want to fight on mythology rather than on on data science, which I'll never understand. And I would imagine for you it's a crazy thing to see because your mom was fighting to get the e R a past, and here we are still trying to figure out how to do there we are. I mean, I would imagine that you you never imagined that this would still be a fight. That's that's on the table. Well, I just think again, I think what's really changed in the last thirty or forty years, and largely because women actually had the ability to get birth control control when when they have or if they have children, women are now part of the workforce and that's really here to stay. And so I do think a lot of these issues they are economic. Like it's crazy, that's still women get paid eighty cents on the dollar than a man makes, and of course if you're a woman of color, it's much lower than that. Everyone's for equal pay. Men are for equal pay right there. It benefits them if in fact their partners or their spouses, or their daughters or their wives, um make make a fair wage. Two thirds of minimum wage workers or women, and that's why we have so many women who are struggling to basically economically survive as well as take care of their kids, because if you're working at minimum wage and trying to support pay for childcare, it's almost impossible. But these are issues. Again, they're not women's issues. They're basic, fundamental economic issues that have majoritary and support. And I wish we could have a government that actually treated these issues as seriously as they do other issues that because they're they're basic family issues. I think they cross party lines, that cross economic lines, and that's kind of what I'm focused on now, and I think that's amazing. I mean, it does seem silly that when our country, when our constituency is so clear on what it is we want, and somehow these lawmakers who just don't listen keep getting elected. Clearly, we need to change the way we uh we as a whole head into the voting booth. I like that you bring up talking about all these women who work in in minimum wage jobs, because that's where your organizing career really began, correct, You started organizing women who were working for minimum wage. That's right, Yeah, And I mean a lot of women obviously still do. And it's not only that they're working minimum wage, but that means a lot of them, until you know, recently, haven't had health care coverage, um sort of basic fundamental access that they need. UM. I mean one of the things that there were so many things I got to work on when I was at Planned Parenthood, and one of course, was the Affordable Care Act, which revolutionize access to all kinds of things for women, including birth control at no cost and even just basic health care. But one thing I like to remind people how recent some of these successes are. As. I think before the Affordable Care Acts, something like fourteen percent of health insurance plans covered maternity benefits, which you would think everyone is for maternity benefits. I mean, that's how we all kind of that here in the first place. And how does everyone think we showed up on this planet? I know, I know, it's crazy, although I remember, you don't spontaneously appear. There was a there was a very famous Senate hearing when a male senator said that he didn't believe that insurance companies should have to cover maternity care because he was never going to need it, which I guess he was past his childbearing years. I don't know, but in any case, we we won that. You know, we won that fight, and now all insurance plans have to cover maternity benefits. Now that doesn't mean that you have maternity leave, but you know, it's just incredible to me that here in twenty nineteen, we're still fighting for such basic issues as access to healthcare that millions and millions of American workers need. So but that's why I think it's exciting. That's why again, kind of getting back to your theme, I think that it's why it's exciting to see how active women and are now as voters, as advocates, as volunteers, and again we've seen in the last you know, two or three years, record numbers of women running for office, you know, get organizing in their communities, and then of course being the overwhelming majority of voters in America. Yeah, I'd find it so ironic that that there's an idea that people's health care should apply differently, this idea that our health care as women is somehow less important than men's, when there's no aspect of men's health care that isn't covered their their reproductive care. I mean, all insurance companies cover viagra exactly, and they don't want to cover birth control. And I just I'm dumbfounded by this idea that you know, these these men, to your points, say well, why should I have to you know, pay into maternity benefits? Why should I have to pay into birth control. I'm like, I have to pay into your viagra, sir. And I saw not to be crasped, but I saw one of the best signs one of the women's marches. This woman wants to buy me holding a sign that said, a baby is God's will. Okay, then so is limp Dick. I don't want to pay for your viagra. And I was, I mean, I almost fell on the ground. I was laughing so hard. I was like, that is brilliant. It's brilliant, this idea that you could say that you can tell me what your spirituality means for my body and my reproductive cycle, but I'm supposed to pay for your erectile dysfunction medication. Like, come on, man, the whole point of this and and I and I do think it's so important to kind of de weaponize the conversation. I think at the ends of each side of the spectrum, it gets so intense and no one's listening to each other. And there's a part of me that wishes we could just sit a bunch of people down at a table and go, look, the whole point of a society is that we take care of each other. So there's all these things that I, as a woman, you know, as sis gendered woman who was born in the body I was born in, will never have to do or go to a doctor for that you, sir, as a sister gendered man, have to go for. But if I'm paying into your health care, you should also pay into my health care. And it's all going to even out in the end, because really, what we know, again thanks to data science, is that the countries with the most comprehensive healthcare actually have the lowest cost of caring for people because they're just well taken care of. So if we were well taken care of and we had things like comprehensive health care and maternity and paternity leave, everyone would just be healthier and the cost of our entire health system would actually decrease. It. It's so it's just so easy, and it feels crazy that we can't agree on that and and move on to crisis things like you know, the environment, air quality, things of that nature. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's crazy. This is where I feel like the business community they've got to understand this, which is having a healthy workforce is how you have economic productivity. But you. I'm sure you remember, and I think you're probably part of this for you when we were we actually had to fight to get birth control covered under the Affordable correct Even though birth control it's really popular, I mean, guys like it, women like it. Everyone really likes it, Everyone uses it, Everyone benefits from birth control exactly. The irony being that it isn't even just about pregnancy prevention. You know, men and women both benefit in obviously many you know, heteronormative relationships from birth control access both men and women equally, but especially for women, the treatment for endometriosis, for um incredible menstrual cycle issues that can you know, lead to migraines and other debilitating pain, acne, all of these things. It's just medicine. It's actual medicine for people, and it's a Again, I just I feel like it's one of those debates when when anybody wants to talk about whether or not it should be covered, I'm like, you deal with viagra and then you get back to me. But until you do, we're not having a conversation about birth control. I am taking it off the table. I refuse. Well, I know this is kind of a controversial thing to say. But I actually because I was there during the fight to get birth control covered. I think if if viagra had not been invented, we would still be fighting to get birth control. But it was because of viagra being covered by every insurance plan. It just became so ludicrous to say, Okay, all of these yes, as you say, a rectile's dysfunction drugs are being covered, but we're not going to cover birth control. We're not going to cover basic healthcare. Uh. And so it's but it is crazy. And although I will say, even in this last fight to defend the Affordable Care Acts in the last couple of years, I mean, the efforts to get rid of birth control access and maternity benefits is ongoing. So even though you know many people have said this, you know there is no fight that is ever completely one. And I do think it's important that people continue to talk about and hold their elected officials accountable on making sure that health care isn't a privilege in this country, but that it's a right for everybody because it's good. It's good for our economy, and it's good for our country. It's good for people, good for families. Yes, and when and when you can win both morally and financially. It seems ludicrous to your point that we would be debating anymore, But you're right, at the end of the day, there are elements of society that we're not intended to include all of us. And that's women, and that's people of color, and that's the marginalized, and that's immigrants. And we have to as a community fight for each other. And we have to remember that we don't get to rest on our laurels when it comes to health care, when it comes to women's care access, we're always going to have to keep a watchful eye. And I think that if we can commit to that, it enables us to move forward. And and it is that that fight. I'm curious. You know, we talked for a moment about how your organizing career began working with women and organizing women who were working for minimum wage, and then that created this path which did eventually lead you to planned parenthood. What was the what was the timing of that organizing work and into planned parenthood, and what did your life look like? And you know, who who were you looking up to then? Who kind of inspired that that forward march for you? Well, it's sort of a classic example. I think, so you have like just as women do, we kind of just do the next thing that needs needs doing. And I was actually at the time I was I was in Washington, and when the job came open and someone called me, I was like, oh my god, I couldn't do that. I don't have those kinds of skills. I've never run anything that I had. Just like every other woman or so many other women, I had all the list of reasons why this would never work out. My kids were in school, I couldn't move. I mean, I just had a list a mile long. And I remember um I had. They had scheduled me for an interview with the search committee, and I just had a panic attack and I I ran into a coffee shop because I was going to just cancel the interview. And I did what any grown woman would do, is I called my mother and I said, Mom, I can't do this. I don't I don't have the skills for this job. And she just said, Cecil, get over yourself. If you don't go and at least try for that job. At Plan parented, you will never forgive yourself. It's the most important organization in the country for women's health. And and after all, she said something to me which I always tell I tell other women. She said, what's the worst thing that could happen? And sometimes I think for women, if we just stop and say, okay, what is the worst thing, maybe you don't get the job, or maybe you do get the job and it doesn't work out. But sometimes we just have to, I think, imagine what the future could be, and then if we could live through it, then we should go for it. And so I always I mean, I credit mom because I really didn't think I had the capability to do that job, and obviously I didn't do it perfectly by a long shot, but I'm so grateful and that she encouraged me, and that other women encourage women to go for things that they may not feel like they're ready to do, because you know, it's amazing what women can do. Sometimes we just don't know until we try. Why why do you say that you didn't do that job perfectly? And look, I know that the word perfect is antithetical to reality, but what in hindsight do you say that because there are things that you would change, or just because you're you know, a human being who was learning along the way. Because I think as I think for a lot of us, UM, certainly in my growing up, is that I think we always thought we were supposed to be perfect, and then we weren't supposed to make mistakes. And I UM, and I'm of course every because there were a million things I could have done differently or better, but that was because I was learned name and I think again, I think about it now, and that's why I do try to encourage, particularly young women, to say, you know what, the only way you're going to learn how to do more is if you take risks and try things that you don't know how to do. UM. And certainly that I feel like it is important for all of us to share the things that we try that didn't work out, because otherwise people do kind of put you on this in this category of like, oh well, I could never do what she did, and the truth is millions of women can. UM. I think that is That's part of our job now for all of us, UM, is to actually encourage each other, support each other, recognize that, I mean, men haven't done done it perfectly either, and that's okay. You know, are there leaving that space and thinking about that. And I do want to talk about some some wins in a moment. But I am really fascinated by this, And I'll give you an example. I I just spoke to this really incredible h meditation teacher and and I say, you know, what are for people listening, what are like three things they could do to change everything? And he said, um, you do not ever plug your phone in your bedroom anymore. Get an alarm clock, uh, plug the phone in somewhere else so that when you wake up, you're not waking up with a hundred people in your room. And then you know, before you before you get up, set your intentions for the day, think about what it is you want to accomplish. And then he said that he really thinks that for productivity, people need to shrink their to do list. Like he said that instead of eight to twelve things on it to do list every day, he has two to three. And I was like, wow, those are really practical places for people to start. And and so I'm curious as you think about the the things that you learned in real time running planned parenthood for women who are out there taking a job maybe before they feel ready, or who are in in a in a really intense you know like hold on, hold on and roll with it working environment. Are there maybe three takeaways that that you now know that you would offer to people. I mean, look, I guess I do try to give um, you know, um, whether it's advice or just like what I've what I guess I've I've experienced. I think one I always every job I ever took, I looked for an opportunity where there was someone who could teach me something new. UM. And that meant sometimes, you know, going into work I didn't necessarily know how to do, like what I went to work on Capitol Hill for Nancy Pelosi, had no idea what I was doing, but I thought I could learn stuff from her I and I really really did. So I think looking for someone who you can learn from is U is really important. I think the second thing I've learned and certainly learned to plan parented, but really in every job I've ever had is hire people who are smarter than you. Don't be afraid to hire someone who knows how to do things that you have no idea how to do, because you're going to learn from them, and it's no bad reflection on you. It's actually how you grow an organization. UM, and it's it's it's frankly, UM. I think I see that as a weakness sometimes when people are afraid to hire someone that actually may have more skills than they do. And I think the third thing, and this is really a backwards lesson. It's something I learned as a union organizer early in my life, working with low income women and Louisiana and Texas, and that is to really be a leader, UM, you have to be a good listener. To me, that's the most important skill you can have. I actually think our government would be better if more people listened rather than told. And I think that's part of what's happening now is that we act interesting. We just we just did a survey with women and UM offered them the opportunity to join this new organization and actually fill out a long questionnaire. We thought no one would do it, but the truth is, I think in the first week more than seventy women did. And I think it's partly because I don't think women feel like anyone is listening to them, and so I do think or UM, you know, in some sometimes we feel like we're supposed to have all the answers, but often the answers are once that someone else has and so that would be my third thing is is learn how to listen. I love that. I am so excited to be joining Gwyneth Paltrow's company Goop at their next wellness summit in Goop Health. The summit is right outside of San Francisco on Saturday, November and there are just a few tickets left, which you can get at goop dot com slash in Goop Health. Goop's summit is led by Gwyneth and her chief content officer at Lease loan In. It's a day to explore what it means to be and feel well physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and to connect with a curious, open minded community in person. At the summit, I'll be sitting down with a Lease, who's the host of the Goop podcast and a real wellness seeker. She and I became friends recently and I actually interviewed her for work in Progress, so you'll be hearing from her on this podcast very soon. But it in Goop Health. I'm going to let a Lease ask most of the questions. In addition to my chat with Elise, she and Gwyneth will be having conversations with a series of thought leaders throughout the day, and other practitioners, teachers, and culture changers will be leading classes and workshops. Guests will learn tools for everything from reducing stress to having hard conversations, quieting your inner critics, and taking care of your skin. And because it's Goop, there will be plenty of good food, drinks, Vitamin B twelve shots my favorite, and some other surprises along the way. I'd love to see you there in Goop Health is coming up on Saturday, November six in the East Bay, and you can get tickets at goop dot com, slash and Goop Health. While you were at Plan Parenthood and and learning all of these valuable lessons, and thank you for sharing them. How did you see our country change? You know, the dialogue around health care access, birth control, abortion, access, reproductive rights. What what did that look like from your purview? Well, I I feel like actually, fundamentally the belief in our country that, particularly when it relates to abortion, birth control, sexual and reproductive healthcare. Fundamentally, people in this country they don't want to be labeled for their positions. They don't see these political issues. They see these as deeply personal issues. And basically the vast majority of Americans think that it's important for people to make their own health care decisions about everything, including pregnancy, and that that's better than having the government make those decisions or politicians. I think that's sort of a truism that has been that has been constant, and I think one of the things I learned is we make mistakes when we try to label things in political terms, label deeply personal issues with political nomenclature, because I think that's just that people don't relate to that UM. I think the other thing that I saw certainly over these last twelve years, and it's not just simply related to the issues plan parent it deals with. I just feel like the hyper partisanship that's developed UM it's affected access to affective healthcare issues, economic issues, the fact that that really know, you know, very few people have faith that UM members from both parties can come together to make progress. I think that's gotten worse in the last two years, but it's been a trend that's been growing. I think that's why honestly, having more women in office is a good idea. You know, all the research shows that women are more likely to work across party lines, they are more likely to actually introduce and support and co sponsor legislation. Uh, They're they're more they're more inclined to actually look for solutions. And maybe it's because of their newness and politics, but I just think women have a real um civilizing force on on government and if we could, if we could move more to a politics and government representation that was equal, I think it would be enormously beneficial, because there's just too much name calling, too much finger pointing um, and not enough actually finding ways to progress well and something that I'm really fascinated by. And Gosh, at this moment, I really am hoping that anyone who's listening who doesn't think the way you and I do about this issue doesn't turn off the interview now, because I do think that having a dialogue across these lines is really important. And I learned so much from the women in my life, women like you, and women in even my peer community, and a friend of mine, Brittany Packnett, who I talked about a lot, who is an incredible educator and activist and and the very personification of black girl magic. She teaches me so much about what I have just been unaware of as a person who did not grow up in a community of color, as a person who was born, you know, in the body that I was born in, and something that I was unaware of, while I did know that it was nine Republican men who passed Roe v. Wade at the Supreme Court because they were listening to doctors and we were listening to hard science, and we were looking at the economic impact on women and men and families, and we were looking at what was happening with women dying, hundreds of women a year from these horrible back alley procedures. It was a factual conversation. But what I didn't know was that the far right did not take up abortion as an issue, even though a real view aid was passed in nineteen seventy three. The the sort of far right, you know, radical conservative movement, which I think is different than you know, the kind of conservative that maybe some of your you know, community in Texas was, or half of my family likes to think that they are um that that movement did not take up abortion as an issue until nineteen seventy nine, and that was when they had really lost the final sort of death shutters of overturning integration. The writing was on the wall, and they realized that they were never going to be able to have these legally sanctioned, this legally sanctioned segmentation by race, and so they didn't care. It wasn't it wasn't an issue. It was a it was a medical and personal choice for people that was meant to be left two doctors and patients. And I find it strange that people think that that means doctors and women. It means doctors and women and their sexual partners, because we don't get pregnant by spontaneous combustion, and and and to understand that the same group of people who wanted to discriminate based on skin color were then willing to weaponize pregnancy and poverty and rape and incest and and and threats to life because some pregnancies do threaten the life of the mother. They chose to weaponize that incredibly painful and private experience for women and their partners, and unfortunately sometimes women and the people they were abused by to create political gain. And that was a really hard pill for me to swallow. And it's been very hard to think about the way that this debate rages uh something that I also learned this year, which I'm embarrassed that I didn't know because I'm I'm a bit of a science junkie, is that you know this whole idea this and you can tell me if this is true, but I believe that it is because of who told me that these heartbeat bills are so ludicrous because there isn't a heartbeat yet we're talking about his egoat, We're talking about a cluster of cells. And what what is quote heard at that you know, I believe is it six or eight week exams? At the six week exam is the electrical impulse being sent from the mother's heart? And when I and and just you know this idea that again, this has been weaponized into this pr machine two to take science out of the room and and to take people's right to their own personhood out of the room. And then what further is hard for me to understand is how they weaponize in some of these states miscarriages against women, against women who might be ready to be moms or have babies with their partners, or who have been trying to get pregnant for years and unfortunately lose that pregnancy. And and that that is that awful experience is being added into this debate. I'm really kind of dumbfounded. And I wonder how you think we can have calm and factual and medical conversations about the topic, because we do have this rule of doctor patient confidentiality, which is clearly being violated by all of this invasion into those exam rooms and by all of these people who scream at women and doctors at at clinics. And I wonder how you think we de weaponize and bring some sanity back here, because I don't know anybody who's ever gone, you know what I've never done. I don't know. I feel like I want to go have an abortion, like that's not somebody's choice. And and you know, I also realized that again we're here to be vulnerable and talk like I make. I have these opinions as a person who's never been pregnant, like which is kind of miraculous. Like I've lived with two people who have dated for many years. I'm amazed that I've never been drunk and stupid enough to like wind up pregnant by accident. I like, I'm not literally knocking on my head because there's no wood around, because I'm like I don't want to jinx myself now, but I've also been through this with friends who have made the right choice for themselves. And you know, whether that's friends who shall remain nameless, or women who are in my peer group who I think are absolute heroes, like you know, Busy Phillips getting up and telling her story and talking about what she needed to do for herself at fifteen, and that enabled her to have her career and eventually meet her husband and have her two children, and and her life is fuller and better because she was in control of her own body and to go and you know, testify before congresses she did recently. I just I'm so in awe of the people who are able to step into this fight and and personalize it. But I wonder what you think we do because we have all this information and and we're dehumanizing people in the midst of this really tender topic. And I don't I don't know what to do right. Well, a couple I mean, I have a couple of thoughts. Although this is obviously it's just a topic that we could talk about for a long time, and I think it's a couple of things you mentioned are important. One is this didn't used to be a partisan political issue. And as you said, I mean, in fact, the Republican Party was the party of small government, and that meant keeping government out of your personal life. And that it is really an irony now that the Party of small Government has now become so obsessed with the most personal private decisions that pregnant people, partners, families, couples make. And so that's one thing that I think it is important to understand the history it was used and now has driven this enormous partisan wedge by frankly, the Republican Party becoming led by um people who absolutely want to end access to legal abortion in this country. As you say, abortion existed before Row versus Wade, it isn't that it isn't ro versus Wade created the idea. It was simply that young, healthy women died in emergency rooms all across this country. And because I worked at Planned Parented, I would meet doctors who can still recount doing their residencies in emergency rooms watching young women die. And I I guess personally for me, we I just as a country, I just believe we cannot go back um to those to those days. I do think that it's this isn't an issue that should be political. I think this is an issue that is so deeply personal, and I respect people who have all kinds of opinions about abortion. That is their right. I think the fundamentally where the American people are is they don't believe that politicians should make decisions about pregnancy. And as you said, we have laws now in states where doctors are having to do invasive pelvic exams on women that are completely unnecessary medically, that are intrusive um. And I actually just add something to that because I'm so glad you brought it up. And and something that broke my heart to read is that in Missouri they this law was passed that doctors have to perform not one, but to vaginal exams before a woman has allowed her right to choose. That there's no medically legitimate reason to justify these exams, that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists agrees that this is wildly inappropriate. They've called this an invasive obligation, and one doctor said, to put it succinctly, it feels like we are an instrument of the state in sanctioning sexual assault. It has been quite emotionally traumatizing, both for patients and providers. No, it's right, I mean the stories and that takes my breath away to hear a doctor say that they feel like the state is requiring them to assault their patients. That that is unfathomable to me. The story is coming out of Missouri are heartbreaking. Obviously, um many of these exams are being undertaken or forced pelvic exams on patients who have desperately wanted pregnancies that they have to terminate for a whole host of reasons. It is it is the worst example, yes, of this what it looks like when the government becomes in charge of your body. And I do think when you ask, because we could talk about this topic and there's so many things that need to be done, but I I what I hear from women everywhere, and it's not only about the topic of abortion or reproductive health care. It is that we have to we have to return to a time of empathy where we actually listen to people. And again you mentioned Busy Phillips. I have such admiration for her telling her story, which is not easy in front of Congress. Of course, people, women, couples, families are now sharing the most deeply personal stories of their lives in order to try to create a sense in this country that we can empathize with other people being able to make their make these personal decisions. But that to me is where when we have frankly, you know, a government in the president United States accusing women of the most horrific things. Um, that is it's it's I believe that we are better as a people. And it's interesting. I think partly as a result of whether it's Missouri and or Alabama banning basically all access to safe and legal abortion. Um, all of these attacks have actually created a backlash. Um. I mean the support for ROVERSUS weight is higher than it's ever been in this country because I think people are looking around realizing that the intention of this government and potentially the Supreme Court is actually to end right that we've had for more than forty years. And the last thing I'll say on this, Sophia, because I think it is important planned parented. We worked so hard to get birth control access for millions of people, and in fact, now I think seventy million UM people have access to no cost birth control. As a result, we are now at the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy in the history of the country, the lowest rate of aboard sin since Roe was decided. And instead of actually championing these these medical public health victories and ensuring that we do continue to make progress, I think the government is going exactly in the opposite direction, because again, outlawing abortion will not make it go away. It will simply make it go to the back alleys as where it existed before. Well. And the thing that feels so ironic to me is that, as you said, we should be celebrating, we are at the lowest rates ever of teen pregnancy and abortion as a whole in the US. Ever so, by creating access and creating better access to all reproductive health care for both men and women, were actually all winning. The right who's against it, and the left, who's who's for choice. Everyone's winning. And it's it's confounding to me that again it's being weaponized and being taken into this of pr machine to act as though that's untrue. And there's some facts that I think are incredibly important that back in three only thirty six percent of abortions were performed at or before eight weeks of pregnancy, and today, sixty five percent of abortions that take place, again the lowest rate ever in history, take place before the first eight weeks, and two percent happened before the first thirteen weeks. So again, there are huge winds for people on all sides here, and it's strange to me that we aren't acting, as you said, as though this is a public health victory because it is because lowering rates of teen pregnancy, lowering unintended pregnancies, lowering abortions, lowering STD transmissions, all of these things are winds. But in order to keep those things happening, we need more access, not less, because access to reproduce to care is comprehensive. And it's strange to me that the folks who are fighting against the access to reproductive care are also the same folks claiming that there, you know, pro life, but really they're pro forced birth. Because we're all pro life. We we all believe in in life, all of us. And this idea that you could be pro forced birth, but vote against chip, vote against welfare, vote against maternity leave, vote against maternity care, vote against birth control, vote against treatment and funding for women who have been sexually assaulted, vote against paternity leave vote against food in schools, that you could support school lunch debt, and that you could believe that student debt, which puts people in poverty is okay, You're you're voting so down the line that this party that claims that they're fighting for life is voting so down the line against life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, against healthcare, against people actually being able to get out of the cycles of poverty that make them not want to be parents in the first place. So it seems because it is really so illogical to me. Yeah, and one other I guess just to add to that, because I do think there are a lot of ironies here. You know, one of the one of the most tragic health statistics in the US right now is the rising rate of maternal mortality. Especially women today giving birth is more likely to die as a result of complications than our own mother. And so at the same time that these states are obsessing about um forcing women to taking the right away of women, couples, pregnant people to make their own decisions, they're actually ignoring this enormous rise in maternal mortality. We lead the developed world, and particularly for women of color and African American women. Um, the statistics are horrific. So I wish that the mainly men in office who were passing these bills would pay as much attention to what is happening with women and mothers in this country because they aren't getting the kind of healthcare access that they need. Um and that you know, as obviously Serena Williams told her own story, this is too too often the story of women in America. Absolutely, and I really wish to your point that those men making these laws that have increased maternal mortality by I wish that they were acknowledging that their laws are killing mothers. That's right, we are. We are. We are killing mothers in our country because we have lost the plot on health care for women. And that is a really, really scary reality. That's not something that I thought we would be talking about in completely. And that's the thing that breaks breaks your heart is these are actually we don't have to invent new things. This is actually medical care that is we know how to do. We just simply need the political will in this country to make sure that everyone gets access to healthcare. And again, I mean it's sort of circling back to the to the big theme. I just think that is why you were seeing more women politically active than ever before. Women were fifty percent of the voters in I think if women are percent of the voters in this country will probably change direction. And and I think that's a good thing. I do too, and I do hope that we can change it, because again, I think people focus on the abortion debate when we're not really talking about comprehensive women's health care and just two things. I want to leave this conversation with our two facts I think are really powerful that compared to states that support women's health, states that oppose safe in legal abortion, spend less money per child on services including foster care, education, welfare, and the adoption of children who have physical and mental disabilities. And states that have the strongest laws against safe and legal abortion are also the states in which women suffer from lower levels of education and the highest levels of poverty, as well as a lower ratio of male to female earnings. And those states also have a lower percentage of women in the legislature and fewer mandates requiring insurance providers to cover minimum hospital stays after childbirth. That is, that is not a pro family policy. So I'm really hoping that the facts I would help us get back to rationale I think we had. You know, it's not lost on anyone that you know, the legislators in Alabama who just voted to outlaw all safe and legal abortion had one thing in common, and that is that none of them will ever be preg because they were all men. And I just think if we had more of a balance in government, where we were you know, as we used to say, planned parent and if we're if we were not you know, if women weren't at the table, we were on the menu. And that kind of feels like it's true. I think it's just time for more women to be at the table. Well. I really appreciate you know, your your fight to bring some sanity back to the debate and to really remind people that abortion has been weaponized. But it's really when we look at the comprehensive list of women's healthcare that we are fighting for and that Planned Parenthood is fighting for and all of these organizations are fighting for, it's a very small piece of the puzzle, and we are talking about how to better take care of women, families, babies, maternal mortality, maternal healthcare, post childbirth care, all of these things, they are all wrapped in one package. And if we keep doing what we've been doing, we will continue to be solving for a public health crisis rather than creating one because some people wanted to argue with each other, right, No, I believe we have so much more in common in this country than we would believe if you watch the news, and it is exciting to be, you know, working organizing women together across party, across issue, across geography and income and race. Is I just think, Um, we believe that that we can do better, and I know we can. Yeah, Well that makes me so excited because you mentioned it. But I really would like the listeners to hear about Supermajority. You have said that creating this organization is about creating a home for women's activism, which I love, and the name Supermajority nods to the fact that we are, in fact the majority of the US population. So can you tell us about Supermajority's goals and how this all came to be sure? I mean, it really grew out of my work at Planned Parenthood, Sophia, with that thought that there were mill millions of women in this country who were kind of waking up and saying, wow, I I, UM, maybe I marched, or maybe I've been volunteering uh somewhere, but I actually would like to get now involved in and advocating for the issues I care about, whether it's equal pay, whether it's access to affordable childcare, reproductive rights, or just access to preventive care at large. And so I joined with a couple of my colleagues who are also great organizers, I Gen Poo who runs the National Domestic Workers Alliance, Alicia Garza, formidable organizer, one of the founders of Black Lives Matter, And we've been traveling the country now providing training, resources, support to women who want to be stronger advocates UM, some of whom may end up running for office, and but ultimately they want to be involved in civic life. They want to be informed voters, and and our goal in this next eighteen months is too um educate and inform and connect two million women in America and make sure that we have the biggest women's turnout ever in the history of the country. In I think women are going to determine the future um of the politics in America and and I think it's a good time to do it. Um As you say, We're not trying to supplant the role of men in this country, but it's just time for equal representation. And I think attention to the issues that that women are talking about every day but so amazing. And I have to tell you an embarrassing story. I met i Jim Poo at the last United States of Women that Mrs Obama throws And when I tell you, I came around the corner and I saw her, and I pulled a full embarrassing fangirl moment. I went, I went like all Google eyed, and she was like hi, and I was like, oh my god, Hi, I'm such a huge fan of yours. Oh my god. And I fell all over myself and she was very sweet. She was like, I also follow you on Instagram. It's okay. I was like, oh my god, thank god we had this whole No, that's good. She's so. I think that's incredible, and that's so glad that you guys are all working together. And I think what you're doing with super Majority is amazing because you're arming people with options and educating so many of us on just what it is we can do. And I love that you call it the Women's New Deal. I'm like, where do I sign up? Yeah? No, it's UM, and I think it is sort of I love that story of you and I Gen because I do think this sort of mutual fan girling that I think women are doing writ large across the country is so exciting, and it's it's what we're trying to channel to make sure this isn't just a moment, but that it's actually a movement um for gender equality and what an opportunity that will be for our sons and our daughters to live in a world where everyone has equal, equal access. Um, I think it's I think it's time. So I love that. I can't wait to tell Agen that I talked to you as UM. She'll be thrilled. I She'll love that that memory. So in thinking about that, in in cultivating a better world for our sons and daughters and and those to come, I think for so many women it is hard to know where to start when it comes to civic participation. A lot of people say, well where do I begin? And to your point earlier, we do want to do more than resist. We want to confront problems. We want to solve them. We we want to solve across party lines and across communities and in our own neighborhoods. So what do you suggest that women and men, anyone who's listening, who wants to get involved do to get started and to lessen that intimidation factor. What's what's the first step? What's the toolkit? Right? Well, I mean one, I encourage anyone that wants to to sign up for Supermajority because we're doing trainings, we're doing sort of basic how to tips on how to be a better organizer an activist. The other thing that I think is important, Sophia, is sometimes people think there was some sort of magic formula of how to make change, or that there is some secret club you need to join. The truth is you just need to start. And so I tell people, you know, volunteer for a group that you support, find a friend who you know is involved in an issue that you care about, go to a meeting, attend a town hall, volunteer on a campaign. Because the only way we're going to change the world, it's not going to be top down, it's going to be bottom up. And again, I think this is a moment, This is a moment in which activism has never been more important and frankly never been more available. Um but again, I encourage folks to sign up for Supermajority will you'll will connect you with other people in your in your community, because there are millions and millions of people in this country who really are trying to make a difference. And it can be as I wrote in my book, you Know make trouble. I think active as them can be joyful. It'll make you feel better than than throwing things at the television set, and you will meet the most amazing people along the way. Absolutely, if you could tell women one thing that they could do that would make a difference, what do you think that would be? Well, I mean, I think everyone always wants to think there's one thing they can do that makes a difference. So to me, it's just do more than you're doing. I don't there isn't any one thing that will change what's happening in this country or what's happening in the world. I think. But if we don't do anything, I think we know what will happen. Then that is things will stay the same. So again, you know, I've been so inspired by women standing at the border and supporting you know, supporting families and opposing family separation, or folks who've been volunteering at planned period at health centers to support patients UH in communities all across this country. Folks who are running for office, people who are attending UM, you know, whenever Congress is back home, you know, go and make make your voice heard. Is if everyone just does that much more. I really do think that's how change happens. It's not going to be one magic, magic thing. And again, if you can't find anything else to do and join us at Supermajority and we'll put you to work, yes, and we'll make sure we'll we'll get UH in our stories for this episode, we'll get the Supermajority link up, and we'll make sure that all the listeners have a quick access to get signed up. UM. Hearing you say that makes me think about my friend Glenn, and Doyle says, when you don't know what to do, do the next right thing right, And I just love that. It's like you've got to take the next step and we've got to keep going. So obviously we could expound on issues and legislation and inspiration and the fight forever. I am curious kind of going back to that for this initial question, when you're not being one of the most inspiring women in our movement. What's a normal day, what do you what's your break or guilty pleasure show or moment of self care? What do you enjoy doing with your kids? You know, what's what's your personal life? Yeah? I mean, look, I think my kids and my family and my husband Kirk, who has like stuck with me for all these crazy years. Um, that is really where I get my I guess, my reinforcement. So whether it's getting to you know, make pasta with my kids or um, go out and take my dog Ali with Kirk for a walk in the park. I think we all just I've never really appreciated more how much we do need to um take time for ourselves and to be committed to the long haul because this is this it can be exhausting, it can be discouraging. We're gonna lose more than we win. And I think it's important that you know, for for folks who may be listening, who feel like they've just been you know, beating their head against the wall, it's okay to take a break. You know that someone else can replace you on the field until you're ready to come back in. Uh. And I do think particularly for women who have who are feeling frightened, who are feeling perhaps discouraged by the state of affairs, I think it's important, um, that we support each other and that we check in on each other because these are these are tough times, these are perilous times, and no one's going to make it through on their own. Yeah. To remember, I heard Shannon Watts, you know who created Mom's demand. She said, we've got to really remember that it's a relay race. You've got to hand off the baton sometimes. And I just love that because we do. We get we get sort of obsessed with this idea that we're supposed to do it all and and we forget that we find our our solace and our strength and our communities. So too, to pass off the baton is important. Agreed. Yeah, Well, I have one last question for you, although again I feel like I could do this with you all day. The title of this podcast is called work in progress because I see so many people out there sort of suffering from the same feeling that you know, we look at the world now through screens primarily, and everyone on Instagram and Facebook looks like they have it all figured out, and we're sort of convinced then that we're the only one who's still finding our way, when in reality, every person who I look up to, who I've ever spoken to, has said that, you know, whether they're joking and they say, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing, or they're talking about what they might have been struggling with recently. Uh, we're all working on it. Even Oprah said that when she did her show, every single time and interview would end, the guests would look at her say did I do okay? Whether that was Barack Obama or Beyonce or you know, the world's biggest CEO. Everybody just wants to make sure they're doing okay. So, as a person who I certainly look at as as you know, a leader in an inspiration who's also a very real human, what would you say right now in your life feels like a work in progress, a goal or a project or or something that you're really working on figuring out next? Um, probably so many things. But I guess I'm a really impatient person. I just um. In fact, one time I had a coach who said to me, she said, you don't need to count to ten, you need to count to like a thousand. Um. And so I think I'm trying to work on being healthily and you know, being impatient but in a healthy way, and and trying to just be more patient with the slow pace of progress sometimes because I think it's um you know, you have to have a long haul vision, and I think right now, so I'm working on trying to be just a tiny bit more patient. I'll let you know how it goes. Though. So that that meditation teacher who's actually meditation teachers have not the right term for him. He's a former monk, if you can believe so inspiring that that I got to interview recently said something so interesting to me. He said, give it the month test, like will it will this matter to you in a month? Because if not, it's not worth getting upset about. And I thought, Wow, it's a really good thing to think about when I'm stuck in l A rush hour traffic and there's seventeen thousand people on the tent freeway and i want to rip my hair out because I just want to go home. Uh, you know that that's really not going to matter to me even by the time I get to my house. So I hope that that might be slightly helpful in in those moments when you need to count to a thousand. Yeah. No, I mean I think it's it's sort of like, don't sweat the don't sweat the small stuff, and I do believe in that. UM. I think that I think the challenge right now and a lot of the things we've talked about in this podcast are these are long term issues to solve, UM and building a society where people have equal opportunity and where you know, we can whether it's based on race, or gender or sexual orientation, all the things that have been barriers to people in some ways because of our culture. I think these are not things that get solved overnight. And I think it's easy to get frustrated when you feel like you can't change what's happening in Alabama immediately or change what's happening in Missouri immediately. But it's important to not give up. And I guess that's the most That's that's what I try to keep in mind. UM. But it's been such a thrill to talk to you, Sofia, thank you for Thank you for including me and would luck with this really important podcast. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley. Our editors are Josh Wendish and Matt Sasaki, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Killion Anatomy