Progress. Hello friends, I am so excited about today's guest. We met many moons ago on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC, and I think people might be pretty surprised that we call each other friends today. I am joined by none other than Adam Kinsinger. He has served in the Air Force Special Operations Command, Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, and the Wisconsin Air National Guard. He served as the United States representative from Illinois from twenty eleven to twenty twenty three. The congressman is a member of the Republican Party who originally represented illinois eleventh District and later the sixteenth and He became known for his vocal opposition to Trump's claims of voter fraud and attempts to overturn the Democratic election results. Adam Kinsinger was one of the ten Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump for the incitement of insurrection in his second impeachment. He also voted to create the Select Committee to investigate the twenty twenty one United States Capital Attack, to which he was subsequently appointed. Adam Kinsinger has written a book not only about his experiences on January sixth, but about the history of a party that he still counts himself a member of but no longer really recognizes. The book is phenomenal, guys. I read it cover to cover in a day and a half. It's called Renegade, Defending Democracy and liberty in our divided country. And in the book, Kinsinger tells the story of faith service and his political duty in a democracy under siege. You'll hear about his childhood, his service in the Air Force flying missions over Iraq, and his final tumultuous term in Congress as one of the few Republicans who voted to hold the former president accountable for his attack on American democracy. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation, and I cannot wait for all of you to hear Adam's perspective. Let's get to it, well, Adam, I have so much I want to talk to you about, obviously in terms of what's been going on in your life in recent years. But I first like to start with my guests and go back to the beginning, because you know, most of the folks out in the world who know you as this badass military career official and elected official might not know where you began. So if we go back rewind meet Adam. As a kid at let's say nine years old, who were you? What were you into?

Progress. Hello friends, I am so excited about today's guest. We met many moons ago on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC, and I think people might be pretty surprised that we call each other friends today. I am joined by none other than Adam Kinsinger. He has served in the Air Force Special Operations Command, Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, and the Wisconsin Air National Guard. He served as the United States representative from Illinois from twenty eleven to twenty twenty three. The congressman is a member of the Republican Party who originally represented illinois eleventh District and later the sixteenth and He became known for his vocal opposition to Trump's claims of voter fraud and attempts to overturn the Democratic election results. Adam Kinsinger was one of the ten Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump for the incitement of insurrection in his second impeachment. He also voted to create the Select Committee to investigate the twenty twenty one United States Capital Attack, to which he was subsequently appointed. Adam Kinsinger has written a book not only about his experiences on January sixth, but about the history of a party that he still counts himself a member of but no longer really recognizes. The book is phenomenal, guys. I read it cover to cover in a day and a half. It's called Renegade, Defending Democracy and liberty in our divided country. And in the book, Kinsinger tells the story of faith service and his political duty in a democracy under siege. You'll hear about his childhood, his service in the Air Force flying missions over Iraq, and his final tumultuous term in Congress as one of the few Republicans who voted to hold the former president accountable for his attack on American democracy. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation, and I cannot wait for all of you to hear Adam's perspective. Let's get to it, well, Adam, I have so much I want to talk to you about, obviously in terms of what's been going on in your life in recent years. But I first like to start with my guests and go back to the beginning, because you know, most of the folks out in the world who know you as this badass military career official and elected official might not know where you began. So if we go back rewind meet Adam. As a kid at let's say nine years old, who were you? What were you into?

Man? So I was okay. So you know how like every kid they have something that they're kind of interested in that their friends aren't interested in, and yeah, it kind of pretends like maybe what they're going to do in the future. So for me, I lived in Jacksonville, Florida when I was six years old, and I remember all of a sudden, kind of out of nowhere getting interested in this may oral race that was happening. And so since it was the eighties, a six year old, yeah, I know and that and that's what I'm saying. It's like a little unantual. But for me it was like it wasn't that I was like, oh, government, But there was this election in Jacksonville, Florida where the guy running have hot pink yard signs because it's the eighties, right, Yeah, you have hot pink yard signs in the eighties.

Man? So I was okay. So you know how like every kid they have something that they're kind of interested in that their friends aren't interested in, and yeah, it kind of pretends like maybe what they're going to do in the future. So for me, I lived in Jacksonville, Florida when I was six years old, and I remember all of a sudden, kind of out of nowhere getting interested in this may oral race that was happening. And so since it was the eighties, a six year old, yeah, I know and that and that's what I'm saying. It's like a little unantual. But for me it was like it wasn't that I was like, oh, government, But there was this election in Jacksonville, Florida where the guy running have hot pink yard signs because it's the eighties, right, Yeah, you have hot pink yard signs in the eighties.

That's very Miami vice too.

That's very Miami vice too.

Actually, it totally was, especially because it's in Florida. So I remember I'm asking my parents, you know, like what is this and they explained like, oh, well, this is, you know, a race, and all that kind of stuff, and from there, I don't know. I just was kind of hooked on the idea, like the fanfare of politics, and then as I got older, I could start to fill it in with policy. So I would say I was kind of a bit of a nerdy kid on some of that. But I was always trying to fit in and pretend like I wasn't, you know, like I didn't want to come across as the political nerds, so I'd try to act cool and all these other but deep down inside, i'd go home and you know, pay attention to what the race results were and stuff like that. So and also at that age, you know, I was I loved the military, I loved airplanes, and so all this stuff kind of worked out in the long run. It's pretty amazing. But I was raised. I was raised and I left this but I was raised probably till about college time frame, and a very strict Baptist church. And I actually write about that a lot in my book. Kind of the effect that that has. It's I would consider an essence of cult. And it's actually interesting because I can find a lot of parallels to today's Republican Party, and but that you know, that had an impact on me growing up and me leaving that kind of cultish iron had an impact on me as an adult in a good way, I think, so, yeah, I guess that's how i'd explained myself. I was a little bit of a weird kid. But you can kind of see if you'd have met nine year old at and you can kind of see what I was going to go do anyway.

Actually, it totally was, especially because it's in Florida. So I remember I'm asking my parents, you know, like what is this and they explained like, oh, well, this is, you know, a race, and all that kind of stuff, and from there, I don't know. I just was kind of hooked on the idea, like the fanfare of politics, and then as I got older, I could start to fill it in with policy. So I would say I was kind of a bit of a nerdy kid on some of that. But I was always trying to fit in and pretend like I wasn't, you know, like I didn't want to come across as the political nerds, so I'd try to act cool and all these other but deep down inside, i'd go home and you know, pay attention to what the race results were and stuff like that. So and also at that age, you know, I was I loved the military, I loved airplanes, and so all this stuff kind of worked out in the long run. It's pretty amazing. But I was raised. I was raised and I left this but I was raised probably till about college time frame, and a very strict Baptist church. And I actually write about that a lot in my book. Kind of the effect that that has. It's I would consider an essence of cult. And it's actually interesting because I can find a lot of parallels to today's Republican Party, and but that you know, that had an impact on me growing up and me leaving that kind of cultish iron had an impact on me as an adult in a good way, I think, so, yeah, I guess that's how i'd explained myself. I was a little bit of a weird kid. But you can kind of see if you'd have met nine year old at and you can kind of see what I was going to go do anyway.

Totally, I feel I really feel that in my own life, you know, being able to draw some of the parallels. When I was I think seven, I started telling my mom she should pick me up from school at two forty five, even though school didn't end until three, because Oprah started it three, and I felt like I was being much more educated by Oprah. And here I am now like, you know so many people out here who are inspired by her, who we host our own interview shows now, And I'm like, yeah, okay, tracks, yeah, yea, yeah.

Totally, I feel I really feel that in my own life, you know, being able to draw some of the parallels. When I was I think seven, I started telling my mom she should pick me up from school at two forty five, even though school didn't end until three, because Oprah started it three, and I felt like I was being much more educated by Oprah. And here I am now like, you know so many people out here who are inspired by her, who we host our own interview shows now, And I'm like, yeah, okay, tracks, yeah, yea, yeah.

That works out. You are kind of an Oprah. You're you're an Oprah. So you got that, you got a flash of that when you were young.

That works out. You are kind of an Oprah. You're you're an Oprah. So you got that, you got a flash of that when you were young.

I mean that's very kind. I think no one is Oprah, but I see the inspirational trail, and yeah, I was. I was also a nerdy kid clearly, so we would have gotten along even as children. How do you think you know when you say the strictness of the Baptist Church? I guess I'm I'm going to try to ask you questions as though I haven't read the book, so that folks at home don't get confused as to what I'm talking about. When you talk about how strict the Baptist Church was, the first thing that comes to mind for me is obviously that the military is a very strict environment as well. So how do you think you began to separate your identity from that as you say cultish strictness of the church. And do you think subconsciously there was something about a structure without religion that maybe felt like the right kind of strictness for you going into the military. Or do they feel separate?

I mean that's very kind. I think no one is Oprah, but I see the inspirational trail, and yeah, I was. I was also a nerdy kid clearly, so we would have gotten along even as children. How do you think you know when you say the strictness of the Baptist Church? I guess I'm I'm going to try to ask you questions as though I haven't read the book, so that folks at home don't get confused as to what I'm talking about. When you talk about how strict the Baptist Church was, the first thing that comes to mind for me is obviously that the military is a very strict environment as well. So how do you think you began to separate your identity from that as you say cultish strictness of the church. And do you think subconsciously there was something about a structure without religion that maybe felt like the right kind of strictness for you going into the military. Or do they feel separate?

No, they feel very separate, but like on the church side. So the specific kind of brand of Baptists is called independent fundamental Baptist. Now, you know, you as a Hollywood person, you know like Footloose, Remember Footloose where it was like you know, drinking dancing. This is that, Okay, I was part of like that. You can't drink you can't, which obviously makes us like in essence, drink more ultimately, because you know, it's like a rebellion thing. So I think what happened in that so it's a very strict environment. My folks were not quite on board with that folly, so I had a lot more kind of flexibility than i'd say, kids, you know, my counterparts and like the church would have. But it does. The thing is it does teach you that everything is black and white. And you see this today, particularly in Republican politics. Since I speak the language, I can see when people talk about things, or they can talk about things like globalism, which some people think globalism is a euphemism for anti judaism. It's actually not. It's for a lot of these people this idea of a one world government and like the end times, and and I can see that stuff. So everything is black and white, which is why now they can look at somebody like me and say Adam's working for the devil because he's working against Arman Donald Trump, which, by the way, we can discuss more, but blows me away. And so I think through that process, you can't be happy in that environment. I mean, you just can't. And I think I rebelled really hard when I was sixteen years old, started drinking heavily. You know, I went to college and joined a fraternity and failed out of college and had to come begging to get back in, and I did, and I got straight a's after I got back in. But you can see where that happens the military. To me, it was so to an extent some of the structure, and I think the black and white and the right and wrong can come into play in the early kind of interest in the military, because it's kind of like, you know, we're gonna go we're gonna fight this fight, We're gonna be We're going to fight for America. But really, the thing that drew me in and and actually made me make the official decision was nine to eleven, even though I had started the process prior. And it's actually interesting, So as a pilot, we are a little bit not like your typical military. We're kind of Anybody that's in the military that knows pilots will tell you we're a pretty arrogant bunch. And the old joke is, how do you know you're in the bar with a pilot, because he'll tell you And and so you know, we were. It's kind of a lot more lax so, but there was definitely I would say that strict environment probably turned me to it initially, but ultimately it was coming out of that and learning who you are and coming to grips with who you are and not being afraid of who you are that I think refined me to the to the better person. And I'll also say the military did a lot in I think shaping particularly the last few years of my career in Congress, because when I got back from my RAQ and nine and I decided to run for Congress, I remember thinking, look, if I'm going to ask and I'm going to vote for, you know, young people to be willing to go and die for America. And by the way, when you go into politics, you got to take those votes, even if the votes. Know, You've got to take these votes of literal life and death. And I'm like, if I'm if I'm going to be willing to take those votes and ask young people to die for the United States, I have to be willing to give up my career for the same cause. Like what a minor sacrifice to lose your job in Congress compared to a nineteen year old with their whole life in front of them losing their life, and that I think that coming out of the military and that really was something that stayed with me and in a good way.

No, they feel very separate, but like on the church side. So the specific kind of brand of Baptists is called independent fundamental Baptist. Now, you know, you as a Hollywood person, you know like Footloose, Remember Footloose where it was like you know, drinking dancing. This is that, Okay, I was part of like that. You can't drink you can't, which obviously makes us like in essence, drink more ultimately, because you know, it's like a rebellion thing. So I think what happened in that so it's a very strict environment. My folks were not quite on board with that folly, so I had a lot more kind of flexibility than i'd say, kids, you know, my counterparts and like the church would have. But it does. The thing is it does teach you that everything is black and white. And you see this today, particularly in Republican politics. Since I speak the language, I can see when people talk about things, or they can talk about things like globalism, which some people think globalism is a euphemism for anti judaism. It's actually not. It's for a lot of these people this idea of a one world government and like the end times, and and I can see that stuff. So everything is black and white, which is why now they can look at somebody like me and say Adam's working for the devil because he's working against Arman Donald Trump, which, by the way, we can discuss more, but blows me away. And so I think through that process, you can't be happy in that environment. I mean, you just can't. And I think I rebelled really hard when I was sixteen years old, started drinking heavily. You know, I went to college and joined a fraternity and failed out of college and had to come begging to get back in, and I did, and I got straight a's after I got back in. But you can see where that happens the military. To me, it was so to an extent some of the structure, and I think the black and white and the right and wrong can come into play in the early kind of interest in the military, because it's kind of like, you know, we're gonna go we're gonna fight this fight, We're gonna be We're going to fight for America. But really, the thing that drew me in and and actually made me make the official decision was nine to eleven, even though I had started the process prior. And it's actually interesting, So as a pilot, we are a little bit not like your typical military. We're kind of Anybody that's in the military that knows pilots will tell you we're a pretty arrogant bunch. And the old joke is, how do you know you're in the bar with a pilot, because he'll tell you And and so you know, we were. It's kind of a lot more lax so, but there was definitely I would say that strict environment probably turned me to it initially, but ultimately it was coming out of that and learning who you are and coming to grips with who you are and not being afraid of who you are that I think refined me to the to the better person. And I'll also say the military did a lot in I think shaping particularly the last few years of my career in Congress, because when I got back from my RAQ and nine and I decided to run for Congress, I remember thinking, look, if I'm going to ask and I'm going to vote for, you know, young people to be willing to go and die for America. And by the way, when you go into politics, you got to take those votes, even if the votes. Know, You've got to take these votes of literal life and death. And I'm like, if I'm if I'm going to be willing to take those votes and ask young people to die for the United States, I have to be willing to give up my career for the same cause. Like what a minor sacrifice to lose your job in Congress compared to a nineteen year old with their whole life in front of them losing their life, and that I think that coming out of the military and that really was something that stayed with me and in a good way.

Ultimately, Well, I would also you know, as a civilian. But I will go ahead and say speaking of pilots, the USO tours I've done have been on Air Force baces, so I've been I've been in the mix a little very pretty. They were pretty cool. I think there's also a seriousness and a weight to being part of the community. Yeah, you know, in the same way that I feel solidarity with union workers all across America and you know, laborers around the world. You know, when we're striking as this Actors Guild with the you know, pilots and the flight attendance unions and ups like, we've really been able to kind of lift the veil on this on this idea of you know, what industries are are privileged or not and be honest about what it means to be in a union, what those protections offer. And I think about the depth of service like yours, and when you are willing to risk your life, when you are willing to you know, leave home and family for these careers, and you go and you work, you go and you fight on the front lines as you did. You know what we're fighting for both in I would say the way America succeeds in being who it says it is, and the ways we haven't quite lived up to our ideals yet but we're striving to get there. And the seriousness of that, the sort of moral weight of that, the willingness to hold the dialectic, all these things that are true. At the same time. You know that our democratic ideals are some of the best on earth, and that we haven't managed to make them all true yet. I think that there is a profundity to that that makes your service as an elected official probably mean more than you know. Some of the folks we see in Congress currently who enjoy being contrarian because they think it's funny and who think that blowing up the country is their way forward. They operate, you know, as you talked about your upbringing in the particular brand of Baptism you grew up in. They operate in this sort of fundamentalism, this chrysto fascism, this and you know, this dream of being these American oligarchs, which is so weird to me, by the way, because they go out and they rally against other places, other cultures, other countries. You know, particularly when you talk about nine to eleven, the Islamophobia that comes from so much of the right and the things they say about Islamic fundamentalism. I'm like, y'all are doing. You're doing exactly what you say. You're fighting here with Christian fundamentalism, and you're going against science, you're going against democracy, you're going against the Constitution, and you're making money to do it. Like you couldn't be farther from anything in the pages of the Bible or any holy book in the world. It's so weird to me that it's become these sort of talking points where people are owning each other. And it must have been so wild to see it from the inside, because you took the oath of an elected official, and you took an oath to our military, like you know what the core of these jobs are supposed to be.

Ultimately, Well, I would also you know, as a civilian. But I will go ahead and say speaking of pilots, the USO tours I've done have been on Air Force baces, so I've been I've been in the mix a little very pretty. They were pretty cool. I think there's also a seriousness and a weight to being part of the community. Yeah, you know, in the same way that I feel solidarity with union workers all across America and you know, laborers around the world. You know, when we're striking as this Actors Guild with the you know, pilots and the flight attendance unions and ups like, we've really been able to kind of lift the veil on this on this idea of you know, what industries are are privileged or not and be honest about what it means to be in a union, what those protections offer. And I think about the depth of service like yours, and when you are willing to risk your life, when you are willing to you know, leave home and family for these careers, and you go and you work, you go and you fight on the front lines as you did. You know what we're fighting for both in I would say the way America succeeds in being who it says it is, and the ways we haven't quite lived up to our ideals yet but we're striving to get there. And the seriousness of that, the sort of moral weight of that, the willingness to hold the dialectic, all these things that are true. At the same time. You know that our democratic ideals are some of the best on earth, and that we haven't managed to make them all true yet. I think that there is a profundity to that that makes your service as an elected official probably mean more than you know. Some of the folks we see in Congress currently who enjoy being contrarian because they think it's funny and who think that blowing up the country is their way forward. They operate, you know, as you talked about your upbringing in the particular brand of Baptism you grew up in. They operate in this sort of fundamentalism, this chrysto fascism, this and you know, this dream of being these American oligarchs, which is so weird to me, by the way, because they go out and they rally against other places, other cultures, other countries. You know, particularly when you talk about nine to eleven, the Islamophobia that comes from so much of the right and the things they say about Islamic fundamentalism. I'm like, y'all are doing. You're doing exactly what you say. You're fighting here with Christian fundamentalism, and you're going against science, you're going against democracy, you're going against the Constitution, and you're making money to do it. Like you couldn't be farther from anything in the pages of the Bible or any holy book in the world. It's so weird to me that it's become these sort of talking points where people are owning each other. And it must have been so wild to see it from the inside, because you took the oath of an elected official, and you took an oath to our military, like you know what the core of these jobs are supposed to be.

Yeah, I mean, look, that's let me hit the oath thing real quick, because I think this is important. It's like I had during all the January sixth stuff, I would have so many members come up to me, particularly Republicans, and say, hey, thanks for what you're doing. I can't do it because you know, my district would be pissed at me and all this stuff. Right Like, and by the way, my district would be pissed at me too, right. But the thing that's important to keep in mind is when you take an oath, you don't take an oath to and the fact this shocks people when I say it, but you don't take an oath to your district. Like if seven hundred thousand people that I represented would have called me and said you need to vote against impeaching Donald Trump and you need to not work on the January sixth committee, it is a completely irrelevant opinion that they have because when I took an oath, the oath I took was to the Constitution. Right. There's a reason we take an oath to the Constitution because our founders knew there would be a moment, there would be a day where that would compete and the idea of holding up the Constitution would compete against the will of the people. And in that case, you have to hold to this thing. So, yes, have we've gotten things wrong in history? Absolutely? Are we trying to strive to get better. Yes, are we ever going to be perfect? Probably not. But you look at the United States today compared to Russia, for instance, who's just lost They throw human life away three hundred and fifteen thousand Russian deaths in two years in the war against Ukraine, when the United States of America lost twenty four hundred in Afghanistan in twenty years, and we consider each and every one of those lives precious. So for then some of my colleagues to somehow talk about Russia as this defender of Christianity is bs because that violates every value I know that Christianity holds, and so I think coming out of the military, and the interesting thing is, sadly this doesn't translate to everybody that has ever served in the military, because I can point to veterans in Congress right now that frankly suck and they don't understand that what the O with means. But I do think there's a tent among veterans that recognizes you fought with a team against a common enemy. Regardless of your opinions of the world, you fought with the team against common enemy. That team you fought with was very different. They came from different backgrounds, different states, different in many cases, different religions, different races, all fighting, all having each other's back and working together even among differences. And I think there's a lesson that, frankly, all of politics needs to take, in my passion, frankly for the next I don't know however many years, is to take all this preconceived notions we have about politics and how it works and policies and answers and problems and just ram dump all of it, flush it all out, and start again. We need a whole new way of thinking about politics. We need to find real problems that we don't necessarily know are out there that are out there, and solutions that we don't know are out there that somebody has. So income inequality is huge in this country, right We've tried raising taxes, we've tried cutting taxes. We still have income inequality. I don't know the answer to incoming equality, but somebody out there, probably listening right now, has the answer. And that's what we need to do, is get past our little egos and thinking that we know everything. Yeah, look at the collective again and get answers, like restart the whole thing.

Yeah, I mean, look, that's let me hit the oath thing real quick, because I think this is important. It's like I had during all the January sixth stuff, I would have so many members come up to me, particularly Republicans, and say, hey, thanks for what you're doing. I can't do it because you know, my district would be pissed at me and all this stuff. Right Like, and by the way, my district would be pissed at me too, right. But the thing that's important to keep in mind is when you take an oath, you don't take an oath to and the fact this shocks people when I say it, but you don't take an oath to your district. Like if seven hundred thousand people that I represented would have called me and said you need to vote against impeaching Donald Trump and you need to not work on the January sixth committee, it is a completely irrelevant opinion that they have because when I took an oath, the oath I took was to the Constitution. Right. There's a reason we take an oath to the Constitution because our founders knew there would be a moment, there would be a day where that would compete and the idea of holding up the Constitution would compete against the will of the people. And in that case, you have to hold to this thing. So, yes, have we've gotten things wrong in history? Absolutely? Are we trying to strive to get better. Yes, are we ever going to be perfect? Probably not. But you look at the United States today compared to Russia, for instance, who's just lost They throw human life away three hundred and fifteen thousand Russian deaths in two years in the war against Ukraine, when the United States of America lost twenty four hundred in Afghanistan in twenty years, and we consider each and every one of those lives precious. So for then some of my colleagues to somehow talk about Russia as this defender of Christianity is bs because that violates every value I know that Christianity holds, and so I think coming out of the military, and the interesting thing is, sadly this doesn't translate to everybody that has ever served in the military, because I can point to veterans in Congress right now that frankly suck and they don't understand that what the O with means. But I do think there's a tent among veterans that recognizes you fought with a team against a common enemy. Regardless of your opinions of the world, you fought with the team against common enemy. That team you fought with was very different. They came from different backgrounds, different states, different in many cases, different religions, different races, all fighting, all having each other's back and working together even among differences. And I think there's a lesson that, frankly, all of politics needs to take, in my passion, frankly for the next I don't know however many years, is to take all this preconceived notions we have about politics and how it works and policies and answers and problems and just ram dump all of it, flush it all out, and start again. We need a whole new way of thinking about politics. We need to find real problems that we don't necessarily know are out there that are out there, and solutions that we don't know are out there that somebody has. So income inequality is huge in this country, right We've tried raising taxes, we've tried cutting taxes. We still have income inequality. I don't know the answer to incoming equality, but somebody out there, probably listening right now, has the answer. And that's what we need to do, is get past our little egos and thinking that we know everything. Yeah, look at the collective again and get answers, like restart the whole thing.

Yes, God, wouldn't that be nice?

Yes, God, wouldn't that be nice?

Yeah? And it wouldn't be an There's so much energy out there, and we have been beat down by these political leaders that are using us for profit, they're using us for fame. Marjorie Taylor Green doesn't believe half of the stuff she says, but she's famous and that's all she wants.

Yeah? And it wouldn't be an There's so much energy out there, and we have been beat down by these political leaders that are using us for profit, they're using us for fame. Marjorie Taylor Green doesn't believe half of the stuff she says, but she's famous and that's all she wants.

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Well, and that's I think such a danger of our time. You know, people believe in the sort of false gods of social media and likes and who's you know, quote winning pr Wars. It's like, so it's so detrimental and none of it's grounded in truth. And I think what frustrates me, as someone who you know, though not an elected official, has spent close to twenty years as a volunteer in our political space, is trying to make democracy cooler for young people, is is that, I know what you're saying is true that so many of these people who are out here behaving like shock jocks from the congressional floor don't believe what they're saying, but they know it's going to be popular on Twitter, and that is galling to me, because I can't fathom how we've lost the plot on the fact that we're supposed to do this for each other. We're supposed to be in this together. You know, even someone like you talking to somebody like me, there's going to be a lot of people who are shocked that we like each other. And there will be people who say to me, well, you know, how dare you interview him on your podcast and this two years ago he voted in this way that you don't agree with. Yeah, okay, so am I supposed to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Aren't we supposed to talk to each other and then maybe begin to see more of each other's positions and perhaps stand up for each other more and more across these quote unquote lines across the aisle. I want to not only believe in, but see what you're talking about, that we might be able to build a new collective and sit down and say, Okay, what do we know works? Take your feelings and opinions out of it. What does all the research show us? You know, I can't help but think that when, particularly on the side of the GOP, when their policies are wildly unpopular, they really like to come for us. They like to come for the women. You've got, Ken Paxton subjecting this poor woman in your new home state of Texas to this awful overturning. She's twenty weeks pregnant, wants to have this baby. It's not going to live, and she's at risk of dying, you know, and they're telling her she can't, at medical advice, have an abortion to save her life. And I'm going, this is what we're doing with our political power. You don't want to talk about income inequality. You don't want to figure out how to feed kids in schools, you don't you don't want to create new, incredible American industry. You want to punish these poor families. It's like, I don't know, it's I know you don't. You don't claim a lot of the people in your party and your vocal about that. But when do you think the party went so off the rails? You know, you've been inside it for so long. Do you think it happened, you know, since you ran in nine or do you think it was falling off the rails before then? In hindsight, what do you what do you see as the kind of red flag moments?

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Well, and that's I think such a danger of our time. You know, people believe in the sort of false gods of social media and likes and who's you know, quote winning pr Wars. It's like, so it's so detrimental and none of it's grounded in truth. And I think what frustrates me, as someone who you know, though not an elected official, has spent close to twenty years as a volunteer in our political space, is trying to make democracy cooler for young people, is is that, I know what you're saying is true that so many of these people who are out here behaving like shock jocks from the congressional floor don't believe what they're saying, but they know it's going to be popular on Twitter, and that is galling to me, because I can't fathom how we've lost the plot on the fact that we're supposed to do this for each other. We're supposed to be in this together. You know, even someone like you talking to somebody like me, there's going to be a lot of people who are shocked that we like each other. And there will be people who say to me, well, you know, how dare you interview him on your podcast and this two years ago he voted in this way that you don't agree with. Yeah, okay, so am I supposed to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Aren't we supposed to talk to each other and then maybe begin to see more of each other's positions and perhaps stand up for each other more and more across these quote unquote lines across the aisle. I want to not only believe in, but see what you're talking about, that we might be able to build a new collective and sit down and say, Okay, what do we know works? Take your feelings and opinions out of it. What does all the research show us? You know, I can't help but think that when, particularly on the side of the GOP, when their policies are wildly unpopular, they really like to come for us. They like to come for the women. You've got, Ken Paxton subjecting this poor woman in your new home state of Texas to this awful overturning. She's twenty weeks pregnant, wants to have this baby. It's not going to live, and she's at risk of dying, you know, and they're telling her she can't, at medical advice, have an abortion to save her life. And I'm going, this is what we're doing with our political power. You don't want to talk about income inequality. You don't want to figure out how to feed kids in schools, you don't you don't want to create new, incredible American industry. You want to punish these poor families. It's like, I don't know, it's I know you don't. You don't claim a lot of the people in your party and your vocal about that. But when do you think the party went so off the rails? You know, you've been inside it for so long. Do you think it happened, you know, since you ran in nine or do you think it was falling off the rails before then? In hindsight, what do you what do you see as the kind of red flag moments?

Yeah, it's interesting. So if you look at so in twenty ten, when I ran, it was kind of the admin of the Tea Party. And what a lot of people don't remember is the Tea Party in twenty ten was very different than what it became in twenty twelve. So in twenty ten, there were people that were ticked off about the healthcare law that hadn't been implemented yet. It passed, but it wasn't implemented into law yet. That's where the whole like repeal and replace idea came in is because it was sitting there waiting to be enactive but hadn't been enacted yet, and the idea for people was, well, let's put a new one in before this one takes effect. Well, when Obamacare took effect, the ACA, like that's when I went off and said, like, look, okay, it's in let's just fix the parts that don't work now because it's already in law. But there became this like litmus test of if you're a true conservative, which, by the way, there is no conservatism left in the GOP. It's become a party about nationalism and there may be echoes of conservatism, but through conservatism, when you talk about the people that deeply believe it. It's all about the role of government, and that role of government should be less in people's lives and not more while providing in social safety. And regardless that, so this became a litmus test. And on abortion, you know what used to be nuanced positions on abortion. You know, every Republican presidential candidate and president has said, you know, their pro life with the exception of rape, incests, life and health of the mother. And many went even saying like, and let's ban after fifteen weeks or something like that. Probably a position you don't agree with, but definitely a better position than say what Texas has right now. But what happened is when the law was overturned by the Supreme Court, instead of the pro life movement then saying, okay, now that this is where we wanted it to be, Let's do everything we can to help women. Let's do everything we can to promote the use of birth control for those that want to use it for family planning. Let's do everything we can to say to women with pregnancies that they didn't want, let's make adoption easier for them. There are so many couples that want to adopt a child. Let's fix the adoption laws with it. There's so many ways they could have come around women and tried to say, Okay, you may not agree with our position, but here's how we can make it better. Instead, what's happened is you can become instantly famous again by saying this lady in Texas that is literally her life is a threat, which there has never been until the last year. Any GOP person I know that would say that in the health or life of a mother, you can't have an abortion. All of a sudden, this new extreme position has become the litmus test for conservatism. Why because everybody wants to be famous, and it is so if I tweeted tomorrow something outrageous and crazy, I could be instantly known in this country. And that's what people are doing. And so yeah, I just think this is where our I would say, like our generation and younger, so our generation down, We've got to get this kind of baby boomer generation. We all have boomers we love, okay, but they have been in power for quite a while. There's a lot of anger in that and it is time for our generations when we finally do come and we take over politics in a full way to be able to put aside these things that have divided us. Look, there's going to be a conservative movement in this country, and there's going to be a progressive movement in this country, and honestly, this country needs both because we're kind of a check on each other. Now, let's all figure out how to get along again and be angry and fight. We can do that, that's all done in politics, but without shutting down our ability to talk to each other.

Yeah, it's interesting. So if you look at so in twenty ten, when I ran, it was kind of the admin of the Tea Party. And what a lot of people don't remember is the Tea Party in twenty ten was very different than what it became in twenty twelve. So in twenty ten, there were people that were ticked off about the healthcare law that hadn't been implemented yet. It passed, but it wasn't implemented into law yet. That's where the whole like repeal and replace idea came in is because it was sitting there waiting to be enactive but hadn't been enacted yet, and the idea for people was, well, let's put a new one in before this one takes effect. Well, when Obamacare took effect, the ACA, like that's when I went off and said, like, look, okay, it's in let's just fix the parts that don't work now because it's already in law. But there became this like litmus test of if you're a true conservative, which, by the way, there is no conservatism left in the GOP. It's become a party about nationalism and there may be echoes of conservatism, but through conservatism, when you talk about the people that deeply believe it. It's all about the role of government, and that role of government should be less in people's lives and not more while providing in social safety. And regardless that, so this became a litmus test. And on abortion, you know what used to be nuanced positions on abortion. You know, every Republican presidential candidate and president has said, you know, their pro life with the exception of rape, incests, life and health of the mother. And many went even saying like, and let's ban after fifteen weeks or something like that. Probably a position you don't agree with, but definitely a better position than say what Texas has right now. But what happened is when the law was overturned by the Supreme Court, instead of the pro life movement then saying, okay, now that this is where we wanted it to be, Let's do everything we can to help women. Let's do everything we can to promote the use of birth control for those that want to use it for family planning. Let's do everything we can to say to women with pregnancies that they didn't want, let's make adoption easier for them. There are so many couples that want to adopt a child. Let's fix the adoption laws with it. There's so many ways they could have come around women and tried to say, Okay, you may not agree with our position, but here's how we can make it better. Instead, what's happened is you can become instantly famous again by saying this lady in Texas that is literally her life is a threat, which there has never been until the last year. Any GOP person I know that would say that in the health or life of a mother, you can't have an abortion. All of a sudden, this new extreme position has become the litmus test for conservatism. Why because everybody wants to be famous, and it is so if I tweeted tomorrow something outrageous and crazy, I could be instantly known in this country. And that's what people are doing. And so yeah, I just think this is where our I would say, like our generation and younger, so our generation down, We've got to get this kind of baby boomer generation. We all have boomers we love, okay, but they have been in power for quite a while. There's a lot of anger in that and it is time for our generations when we finally do come and we take over politics in a full way to be able to put aside these things that have divided us. Look, there's going to be a conservative movement in this country, and there's going to be a progressive movement in this country, and honestly, this country needs both because we're kind of a check on each other. Now, let's all figure out how to get along again and be angry and fight. We can do that, that's all done in politics, but without shutting down our ability to talk to each other.

Mm hm, well, and without being bloodthirsty about each other.

Mm hm, well, and without being bloodthirsty about each other.

Right.

Right.

You know, it's not lost on me that you're having taken a position against a threat to democracy, against treason, put you in a position where your life was at risk. You know, even for me, nobody liked your opinion. People really don't like opinionated women in this country. Good god, you know, And me talking about what I was watching with my own eyes on that day led to death threats and things, I mean, just things that I was astounded that people would say to another person. And people seem to really get off on it, they seem to really enjoy the violence. And I don't know if that's because the former president set an example of violence and retribution. I don't know if it's because so many people, as you were saying earlier, in your party or courting, you know, dictators like Vladimir Putin, who you know puts people to death in his country and crashes airplanes with opponents on it, and you know, throws people out windows. It's frightening.

You know, it's not lost on me that you're having taken a position against a threat to democracy, against treason, put you in a position where your life was at risk. You know, even for me, nobody liked your opinion. People really don't like opinionated women in this country. Good god, you know, And me talking about what I was watching with my own eyes on that day led to death threats and things, I mean, just things that I was astounded that people would say to another person. And people seem to really get off on it, they seem to really enjoy the violence. And I don't know if that's because the former president set an example of violence and retribution. I don't know if it's because so many people, as you were saying earlier, in your party or courting, you know, dictators like Vladimir Putin, who you know puts people to death in his country and crashes airplanes with opponents on it, and you know, throws people out windows. It's frightening.

And I.

And I.

Wonder how you make sense. Yes, you're a man of duty, you know, both in the military and in Congress. You believe in the calling and the purpose of your work. But also just as a human and a parent, how how do you kind of reconcile with this boiling point we seem to have come to in the nation. How do you appeal to people to begin to turn the temperature down.

Wonder how you make sense. Yes, you're a man of duty, you know, both in the military and in Congress. You believe in the calling and the purpose of your work. But also just as a human and a parent, how how do you kind of reconcile with this boiling point we seem to have come to in the nation. How do you appeal to people to begin to turn the temperature down.

So it's a great question, and I realized I didn't fully answer your last question too, about like did you you know, did it happen while you were there? And so I'll put the two together and say, I can look back at my time in Congress and see echoes of what this thing became that either I didn't see or I kind of willfully ignored. Because you end up and I'm not exempt from this right making compromises to stay in power. To some extent, compromises in politics you have to make. But when it's like to the things that you hold dear and you kind of turn a blind eye to it, I have some guilt over that, but I also know that you know, I'm glad I survived to be able to fight where I did. But I think Donald Trump served two purposes. So this kind of like really bad, whatever this bad undercurrent is and the GOP it existed, but it existed in kind of the dark corners for a while. Donald Trump came along, and this is what we have to reconcile with when we talk about where people are and how do we fix it. So everybody in our hearts, every day you have a fight in your own life between light and darkness. So every day you are bombarded with your own thoughts of like, screw it, I'm not going to get involved. I hate this person, I hate that I write. And you have to try to fight that every day with brightness, with light, with goodness whatever that goodness is to you. And that's a hard bat And by the way, some days I lose those battles. Some days I'm sure you lose it where you just get down. But every day that's the fight. There's mistrust, right, racism, whatever it is. And Donald Trump came along and what used to exist in dark corners or in whispers at tables at fundraisers, he came along and now publicly said what was in the darkness of your heart. So, if you had a mistrust for immigrants and you thought they were taking your jobs, you would never say that because gosh and polite company, and so you'd fight that urge. You'd fight that feeling when Donald Trump stands in front of you and says it, and he says they're coming to take your jobs, and the Democrats are and Hollywood and the Democrats they put together. You guys actually worship Satan. And this is a QAnon theory. You worship Satan and you drained baby's blood. And I've been accused of that as well. Because now I'm in the mitail slash Democratic crowd.

So it's a great question, and I realized I didn't fully answer your last question too, about like did you you know, did it happen while you were there? And so I'll put the two together and say, I can look back at my time in Congress and see echoes of what this thing became that either I didn't see or I kind of willfully ignored. Because you end up and I'm not exempt from this right making compromises to stay in power. To some extent, compromises in politics you have to make. But when it's like to the things that you hold dear and you kind of turn a blind eye to it, I have some guilt over that, but I also know that you know, I'm glad I survived to be able to fight where I did. But I think Donald Trump served two purposes. So this kind of like really bad, whatever this bad undercurrent is and the GOP it existed, but it existed in kind of the dark corners for a while. Donald Trump came along, and this is what we have to reconcile with when we talk about where people are and how do we fix it. So everybody in our hearts, every day you have a fight in your own life between light and darkness. So every day you are bombarded with your own thoughts of like, screw it, I'm not going to get involved. I hate this person, I hate that I write. And you have to try to fight that every day with brightness, with light, with goodness whatever that goodness is to you. And that's a hard bat And by the way, some days I lose those battles. Some days I'm sure you lose it where you just get down. But every day that's the fight. There's mistrust, right, racism, whatever it is. And Donald Trump came along and what used to exist in dark corners or in whispers at tables at fundraisers, he came along and now publicly said what was in the darkness of your heart. So, if you had a mistrust for immigrants and you thought they were taking your jobs, you would never say that because gosh and polite company, and so you'd fight that urge. You'd fight that feeling when Donald Trump stands in front of you and says it, and he says they're coming to take your jobs, and the Democrats are and Hollywood and the Democrats they put together. You guys actually worship Satan. And this is a QAnon theory. You worship Satan and you drained baby's blood. And I've been accused of that as well. Because now I'm in the mitail slash Democratic crowd.

I'm like cool, I grew up a camp counselor. But tell me more about how I hate children. I love this story, my god.

I'm like cool, I grew up a camp counselor. But tell me more about how I hate children. I love this story, my god.

It's nuts and so. But when they speak the dark parts of your heart, especially somebody in authority, it allows you to basically get rid of all of that personal feeling of like I have to be accountable. You put your accountability onto the leader, and he and it's easy to let the darkness overtake you. It's easy to let that fear, that hate, that vengeance overcome you because it feels comfortable. And now he, Donald Trump, has taken ownership of it for you, so you can allow him to and it just destroys you as a person, and people don't realize it. I think there are many in my former party. I still call myself a Republican, but I don't vote Republican anymore. There are many in my in that party that I think are going to have very short lives because they're allowing themselves to be torn up from the inside. And I mean it legitimately. Their cortisol levels are spiked, their anger is spiked. Their families, you know, don't want to talk to them because they're down the QAnon hole. And we all know that if you don't have family and love in your life, you don't live as long as you could. And so what we have to do as individuals, I'd say, is, yeah, it's great to tweet. It's great if you're in a position like you are, and I am to be out there as publicly as we can. But if you don't have the forum that you and I have to talk about this, just love the people around you, but don't expose yourself to toxicity. Right If I had half of my family on my dad's side disowned me through all this stuff, through this January sixth stuff in a certified letter, I've had to forgive them in my heart, and I have, but I have not reconciled with them, and I have no desire to because that is toxic and I don't need to desire it to. I don't need to reconcile with them. So I would just say that to people. Love those you can, by the way, get a friend that doesn't think like you and just kind of understand how they think. That's an important thing, But don't be in anything that's toxic.

It's nuts and so. But when they speak the dark parts of your heart, especially somebody in authority, it allows you to basically get rid of all of that personal feeling of like I have to be accountable. You put your accountability onto the leader, and he and it's easy to let the darkness overtake you. It's easy to let that fear, that hate, that vengeance overcome you because it feels comfortable. And now he, Donald Trump, has taken ownership of it for you, so you can allow him to and it just destroys you as a person, and people don't realize it. I think there are many in my former party. I still call myself a Republican, but I don't vote Republican anymore. There are many in my in that party that I think are going to have very short lives because they're allowing themselves to be torn up from the inside. And I mean it legitimately. Their cortisol levels are spiked, their anger is spiked. Their families, you know, don't want to talk to them because they're down the QAnon hole. And we all know that if you don't have family and love in your life, you don't live as long as you could. And so what we have to do as individuals, I'd say, is, yeah, it's great to tweet. It's great if you're in a position like you are, and I am to be out there as publicly as we can. But if you don't have the forum that you and I have to talk about this, just love the people around you, but don't expose yourself to toxicity. Right If I had half of my family on my dad's side disowned me through all this stuff, through this January sixth stuff in a certified letter, I've had to forgive them in my heart, and I have, but I have not reconciled with them, and I have no desire to because that is toxic and I don't need to desire it to. I don't need to reconcile with them. So I would just say that to people. Love those you can, by the way, get a friend that doesn't think like you and just kind of understand how they think. That's an important thing, But don't be in anything that's toxic.

And now a word from our sponsors. I think that's very true for so many things, whether that's you know, family dynamics, relationships, you know, these political conversations, figuring out who who you're going to take with you into your phase too, whatever that looks like, who really shows up and is willing to do you know, the work, who helps to set you free. I think those are incredibly important clarifying moments. And I think about what a clarifying moment painful? I'm sure when you talk about that sort of family dynamic in your life, but what a clarifying moment telling the truth about January sixth was for you and you know, for the friends at home. And we've referenced it a few times. Your new book, Renegade is phenomenal. I just I was so so inspired by it. I read it so fast, and I was reading some of the reviews on it and one of them said raw, provocative, and clear eyed, and I was like, my three adjectives also, because that is really how it feels. It's so honest. And I guess I wonder, was the fallout from the day what made you want to write it? Was it the realization of how bad the day was? Was it the time you spent sort of replaying what you went through in the capitol on January sixth? What made you feel like you had to put pen to paper on this?

And now a word from our sponsors. I think that's very true for so many things, whether that's you know, family dynamics, relationships, you know, these political conversations, figuring out who who you're going to take with you into your phase too, whatever that looks like, who really shows up and is willing to do you know, the work, who helps to set you free. I think those are incredibly important clarifying moments. And I think about what a clarifying moment painful? I'm sure when you talk about that sort of family dynamic in your life, but what a clarifying moment telling the truth about January sixth was for you and you know, for the friends at home. And we've referenced it a few times. Your new book, Renegade is phenomenal. I just I was so so inspired by it. I read it so fast, and I was reading some of the reviews on it and one of them said raw, provocative, and clear eyed, and I was like, my three adjectives also, because that is really how it feels. It's so honest. And I guess I wonder, was the fallout from the day what made you want to write it? Was it the realization of how bad the day was? Was it the time you spent sort of replaying what you went through in the capitol on January sixth? What made you feel like you had to put pen to paper on this?

So, you know, writing a book. Somebody once told me they're like, if you write a book about yourself, it feels inherently arrogant. And I'm like, yes, it does, because you know, you write it, and you're like, who wants to read me write in a book about me? Right? But what I came to realize is my story. So Liz Cheney's book is out now, which goes into great detail of everything from election day until almost present day with Donald Trump, and you know what she and I went through on the committee, and I talk about that as well in my book. But mine, I figured my story tells the broader story of the GOP from particularly twenty ten, but I even go further back to nineteen ninety two. That was really helpful, Yeah, because I asked, like so many people, you know, ninety two, for instance, I was at this Christian Coalition convention, and I didn't even realize until I started doing the research that that was the first time the GOP and Evangelical Christianity actually met officially and in essence created this alliance that sort of existed in the past in the eighties but not fully. And then you see going forward how that kind of overtook the role of kind of traditional Republican The Republican Party just used to be about business. I didn't even care about social issues, honestly, that wasn't even it was just like pro business stuff. And so that was the purpose in writing the book was just for people to be able through a microcosm of a story, to see these broader things that have concerned me about the party, that have concerned me about this country. And you know, and the other thing is, I hope some of these folks have been able that particularly that I don't know if you've been through I don't know everything about your history, but if you've been through anything like where all of a sudden you realize, like who your real friends are?

So, you know, writing a book. Somebody once told me they're like, if you write a book about yourself, it feels inherently arrogant. And I'm like, yes, it does, because you know, you write it, and you're like, who wants to read me write in a book about me? Right? But what I came to realize is my story. So Liz Cheney's book is out now, which goes into great detail of everything from election day until almost present day with Donald Trump, and you know what she and I went through on the committee, and I talk about that as well in my book. But mine, I figured my story tells the broader story of the GOP from particularly twenty ten, but I even go further back to nineteen ninety two. That was really helpful, Yeah, because I asked, like so many people, you know, ninety two, for instance, I was at this Christian Coalition convention, and I didn't even realize until I started doing the research that that was the first time the GOP and Evangelical Christianity actually met officially and in essence created this alliance that sort of existed in the past in the eighties but not fully. And then you see going forward how that kind of overtook the role of kind of traditional Republican The Republican Party just used to be about business. I didn't even care about social issues, honestly, that wasn't even it was just like pro business stuff. And so that was the purpose in writing the book was just for people to be able through a microcosm of a story, to see these broader things that have concerned me about the party, that have concerned me about this country. And you know, and the other thing is, I hope some of these folks have been able that particularly that I don't know if you've been through I don't know everything about your history, but if you've been through anything like where all of a sudden you realize, like who your real friends are?

Ye?

Ye?

For me? Yeah, and so for me turning against Donald Trump, these people that I thought would be friends. I was always kind of against Trump, but I was never so outspoken that I thought would be friends would disown me, would turn against me, whether it's family. My co pilot in Iraq a year and a half ago sent me a text that said I was ashamed to have ever flown with you. And while that hurts, and you should talk to somebody about that, and I've had to the reality is I now know that that wasn't a true thread, and there is some blessing in that, I guess.

For me? Yeah, and so for me turning against Donald Trump, these people that I thought would be friends. I was always kind of against Trump, but I was never so outspoken that I thought would be friends would disown me, would turn against me, whether it's family. My co pilot in Iraq a year and a half ago sent me a text that said I was ashamed to have ever flown with you. And while that hurts, and you should talk to somebody about that, and I've had to the reality is I now know that that wasn't a true thread, and there is some blessing in that, I guess.

I think so, I think there's a real truth to when people react to you standing up for what's right, be it for you as an individual, you know, refusing to tolerate an abusive relationship or some other terrible environment, or in this case, you standing up for what's right for the Constitution, and their reaction to you making yourself bigger in defense of goodness, their reaction is a repulsion or a discomfort. That's a big sign because people who don't want to see you grow, who don't want to see you really stand in the clarity of your moral character, are people you don't want in your circle anyway.

I think so, I think there's a real truth to when people react to you standing up for what's right, be it for you as an individual, you know, refusing to tolerate an abusive relationship or some other terrible environment, or in this case, you standing up for what's right for the Constitution, and their reaction to you making yourself bigger in defense of goodness, their reaction is a repulsion or a discomfort. That's a big sign because people who don't want to see you grow, who don't want to see you really stand in the clarity of your moral character, are people you don't want in your circle anyway.

That's right, that's right, because yeah, and you end up you find that, like you know, we're naturally a tribal creature, so we like the comfort of numbers, we like the safety of friends, and you find that And I think this happens, not to get back right to politics, but I think this happens a lot in political circles, and particularly my former political circle, where you know, there's whatever some controversial issue is, you know, all of a sudden you can't have a nuanced approach to that issue because you're afraid that if you come out and say, for instance, you want background checks on guns, or you want to raise the gun purchase age, or you want to ban on assault weapons, whatever it is. Now, in that group of friends or political activists that are kind of your tribe, if you've gone outside of the tribe, they're going to excommunicate you. And so that's why I think too you see in politics now this like monolithic feeling of certain principles. Why there's no nuanced approach to these different issues because people have turned their political circles into their social circles, and they can't get kicked out of their social circles or they're going to feel isolated. I mean, I think, Sophia, I think people fear more than they fear death. I think people fear being kicked out of their tribe. I think they fear being isolated more than they fear death. Why is it that suicide rates went up during COVID because people felt isolated and that's the biggest fear. And I saw that in the cowardice of my colleagues when it came to January sixth, who were who knew what the right answer was, but they didn't want to. It's not even that they didn't want to not get reelected. It's they didn't want to take all their text messages from their family and friends that I had to take in essence kicking them out of their tribe. And so that's I think it's something to keep in mind when you talk about conflict. At the base of conflict between two people, two entities, even two nations, boil down and you strip down all the layers of the onion, what you get to is a core of fear. There's always fear, and that fear leads to conflict, and in many cases it's fear of being kicked out of the tribeor excommunicated.

That's right, that's right, because yeah, and you end up you find that, like you know, we're naturally a tribal creature, so we like the comfort of numbers, we like the safety of friends, and you find that And I think this happens, not to get back right to politics, but I think this happens a lot in political circles, and particularly my former political circle, where you know, there's whatever some controversial issue is, you know, all of a sudden you can't have a nuanced approach to that issue because you're afraid that if you come out and say, for instance, you want background checks on guns, or you want to raise the gun purchase age, or you want to ban on assault weapons, whatever it is. Now, in that group of friends or political activists that are kind of your tribe, if you've gone outside of the tribe, they're going to excommunicate you. And so that's why I think too you see in politics now this like monolithic feeling of certain principles. Why there's no nuanced approach to these different issues because people have turned their political circles into their social circles, and they can't get kicked out of their social circles or they're going to feel isolated. I mean, I think, Sophia, I think people fear more than they fear death. I think people fear being kicked out of their tribe. I think they fear being isolated more than they fear death. Why is it that suicide rates went up during COVID because people felt isolated and that's the biggest fear. And I saw that in the cowardice of my colleagues when it came to January sixth, who were who knew what the right answer was, but they didn't want to. It's not even that they didn't want to not get reelected. It's they didn't want to take all their text messages from their family and friends that I had to take in essence kicking them out of their tribe. And so that's I think it's something to keep in mind when you talk about conflict. At the base of conflict between two people, two entities, even two nations, boil down and you strip down all the layers of the onion, what you get to is a core of fear. There's always fear, and that fear leads to conflict, and in many cases it's fear of being kicked out of the tribeor excommunicated.

Well, and you know, when you think about what all the scientists teach us about our brains and evolution, and you know the fact that we've still got this little lizard brain in us that is petrified all the time and very tribal. You see how we can other people so easily. Yeah, But part of the point of human evolution, and you know, philosophy and living in the year twenty twenty three, is that we're supposed to have learned better and understand more and know that there is more than enough, you know, in terms of resources and everything else on this planet. And yet here we are being these tribal little animals. When tribalism, as you said earlier, is led out of Pandora's box in the way that Donald Trump managed to do it. You know, he brought all of the darkest lizard brain whispers that so many people were hiding or doing the more mature brain work of tamping down. He brought them all out and you know, put them on the menu. Obviously, so many people saw the danger in that. You saw the danger in that you you were not a trumper, but when you knew that there was this plan that these protesters, that you know, these rioters were going to march to the Capitol, I'm curious about what as a military man it felt like to prepare for that, because you mentioned, you know, in your book, you brought your gun to the Capitol that day. To me, that signals that you were worried about something happening in a very serious way. So what was your mindset on the morning of the sixth And how did your sort of worst fears, I guess come true? Can you kind of just walk us through the day a little bit?

Well, and you know, when you think about what all the scientists teach us about our brains and evolution, and you know the fact that we've still got this little lizard brain in us that is petrified all the time and very tribal. You see how we can other people so easily. Yeah, But part of the point of human evolution, and you know, philosophy and living in the year twenty twenty three, is that we're supposed to have learned better and understand more and know that there is more than enough, you know, in terms of resources and everything else on this planet. And yet here we are being these tribal little animals. When tribalism, as you said earlier, is led out of Pandora's box in the way that Donald Trump managed to do it. You know, he brought all of the darkest lizard brain whispers that so many people were hiding or doing the more mature brain work of tamping down. He brought them all out and you know, put them on the menu. Obviously, so many people saw the danger in that. You saw the danger in that you you were not a trumper, but when you knew that there was this plan that these protesters, that you know, these rioters were going to march to the Capitol, I'm curious about what as a military man it felt like to prepare for that, because you mentioned, you know, in your book, you brought your gun to the Capitol that day. To me, that signals that you were worried about something happening in a very serious way. So what was your mindset on the morning of the sixth And how did your sort of worst fears, I guess come true? Can you kind of just walk us through the day a little bit?

Yeah, so, you know I had predicted violence actually on a phone call with Kevin McCarthy and all the other Republican members of Congress, and people ask me, well, how do you know it's gonna be violence, and like it's easy. I looked at Twitter and I saw the death threats against me because I was you know, it was basically Liz Cheney and I were the two most outspoken saying the election wasn't stolen. And I said to Kevin McCarthy, you're convincing half of the country that the election was stolen. There's going to be violence, because, honestly, let's be clear, if an election really was stolen, we should all be rioting on the Capitol because you know, the whole thing about the founding of the US against the British was taxation with representation. You know, we were founded in revolution, so there's nothing wrong with revolution if truly it's being stolen. The problem is it wasn't being stolen, and you're convincing and you're abusing paye triotism, And so I knew there'd be violence. Now I don't know if I knew that they were going to sack the Capitol per se, but I knew there was going to be violence against members of Congress. Like me. I'd have the threats. I mean, people were posting. You've probably had this in yourself, because again, the crazies get attracted to Hollywood and politics, right, and particularly if you get Hollywood involved in politics, you probably get a double dose of crazy. But I would get so many tweets of like a hangman's news or you know, we were talking about fundamentalism. Fundamentalists in general, they hate people of their own kind that pretend to be like them that aren't. It's like fundamentalist religions to fight other people that claim to be the same. Fundamentalist Republicans hate me more than they hate Democrats because they think I'm an apostates. So I asked my wife to stay home that day. I used to say I told my wife to stay home that day, and I learned that you have to say you ask her, which I did, and so she stayed home and my but I could tell my staff. My staff stayed home, so it was just me in the office, and I took my gun for the first time. I'm I'm usually armed because of the threats I'd get against me, but I never would take my gun to the Capitol because there were so many police officers there, and I'm not somebody that carries to feel cool. I carry for protection and I'm licensed to do it. But that day I did, and I went to the floor at the start for the proceedings. And by the time I kind of got there and the proceedings kicked off, I had this sense that something really bad was going on. I started to see these reports on Twitter, so I actually went back to my office and by the time I got to my office, that's when the pipe bombs were discovered at the RNC and DNC. I opened my window, which is you remember my office behind my desk, My window actually overlooks the west front of the Capitol. And I opened that up and I looked out the window and all I could hear was just boom, bang, pop explosions. And it was that moment that DC Metro Police showed up to defend the perimeter of the Capitol. Now, in these conspiracy theories, there are videos of Capitol police retreating, removing bike racks, opening doors, and the crazies try to use that as an example of well Capitol police were in on it. No, Capitol police were overrun and the bike racks were being used as a weapon, and so Capital police had to remove those bike racks because they were being used as weapons.