This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis, play talks with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome in Wins and Losses. This is episode four. So far you have heard from three pretty awesome guys. Jason Whitlock, you've heard from Shannon Terry who found seven Sports as well as Rivals, and you heard last week from a really intriguing guest as well, SEC Commissioner Greg Sanky. We are joined now by Washington State head football coach Mike Leach, who I think you guys are going to enjoy as well. And if you haven't already, go ahead and subscribe to the Wins and Losses podcast. The idea behind the Wins and Losses Podcast as we explore many of the successes and failures of a variety of different figures across the world the sports, media, politics and business. And it sounds like we've caught him in the middle of a hurricane. Mike Leach, are you there? Yeah? Yeah, no, it's raining here. It's getting after it pretty good. Are you a doorman? No? I just I just got to Florida a couple of days ago and so it's uh, now, I had a lightning strike that rumbled the whole neighborhood. You can feel you can feel stuff shakeun all side. So yeah, it's like being kind of being in a cannon battle or something. Are you down in the Keys right now? Yeah? What do you like about the Florida Keys? Like, I know you spend a lot of time down there and uh, and I've spent a lot of time down there over the years. What is it about that area that appeals to you? I like that everything simplified as long as I've been down here, and I lived here for two years. I never had a car, didn't have a car the whole time, just bike or walk. Uh get in great shape down here just by accident. Um, you know, I'll do the print exercises on my deck, whether it's uh push ups or sit ups, and I'm in such bed shape now I'll have to wait a couple of days to make another run at those. But then, um, you run into uh good food here, you know, because you can accidentally eat fish twice a day down here. Um. And then if your board, I don't get a lot of TV watch down here, you go take a walk and you'll run into or see something, or ride your bike and run across something you've never seen before. Are you in Key West? Like what part of the Keys do you like the best? Well, I'm in Key West, yeah, so, uh, I've never been to Key West. I've heard I would love it now. I lived in the Caribbean in St. Thomas, US, Virgin Islands for a couple of years where that's where I went to practice law when I first started. But I love kind of did you where where did you go a lot school? I went to Vanderbilt. So I graduated Vanderbilt Law School and the managing partner of a Virgin Islands law firm as a friend of mine named Chad Messier. And I was scrolling through looking at the job offerings, the postings, and I saw us Virgin Islands, and uh, you know, I'm from Nashville, So I thought, you know, I was kind of expecting that I would have had to offer, you know, to stay in Nashville, and kind of thought that's what I would do. And uh, you know, I kind of on a lark, I sent my resume down there, went down for an interview. I was getting married, and uh and we were like, why not go down and try this and see how it's gonna go. And so we ended up in the Caribbean. Well that'd be us. I would have done that. I tried to go to Australia, but uh, the Australians are kind of wise to that. Um you know, they before long they pointed out that they had their own attorneys and uh and uh, you know, the chances of me going down they were going to be kind of long and drawn out. So as a result, I got into coaching. So if you could have gone to practice law in Australia, you would have because you graduated from where Pepperdine law school. Yeah. I was mainly gonna just try to well, so I'd gone straight through. I'd gone straight through. Uh co graduated college and eight semesters and then went straight to law school. So I was one of the youngest guys there. And then um, you know, and stuff was going so fast. All of a sudden, I'm out of law school and feel like life's slipping me by and and I was broke coming out of college. So I didn't, you know, go to Europe and find myself for two years or none of that stuff. That would have been a good deal and probably in my case well advised um and so I, uh, well, then I was trying to make up for lost time and do it then, and I was married and had my first daughter, and so then um, I needed to pay for it. So the notion really was, which it didn't take the Australians long, um, was to hide behind my law degree work for two years and then go back and grow up. And so um uh you know, long story short. I mean the process to go over there and work was kind of long and extensive, and I didn't make it over there. So then I started uh uh kind of masters at the United States Sports Academy, because if you have a bunch of student loans, the logical thing is to get another degree and take out more loan stuff support yourself and prolonged the thing, which I did, and then uh started coaching from there as part of the United States Sports Academy, which was an outstanding curriculum and things they part of it was, uh, you know, you'd get a lot of credit for being at intour in the fields you wanted to and you know, you do stuff like journals, write papers and have somebody that supervises you and and you um, they write evaluations, and uh you would uh get credit for you know, working on the job and kind of not you know, on the job, training, building a career all that you get credit for it as you learned along the way. So it was very functional as far as h as far as my career went. So how did you So you go to Brigham Young and you're interested in college football and then you decided to go to Pepperdine to go to law school. How did that? How did that decision get made? Well? I went to I've broken my ankle my senior year of high school in football, and and we were, you know, a high achieving team. Were the smallest team in the biggest classification in Wyoming, but always quite successful, you know, won the state championship my uh junior or my sophomore year, played for my junior year, and then I break my ankle my senior year. So um so anyway, so i'm you know, the football thing, I'm thinking, well, all right, academics, I've been studying. I'm gonna go be an attorney. Which was strange enough that because we didn't have any attorneys in my family to speak, just sort of out of the blue, out of my head that I was going to be an attorney. My dad, why why did you want to do that? You know? I think there was an accumulation. I think it was kind of I was always an English history guy. I always read a lot of stuff. I wanted something that would let you do that. UM teaching. I didn't see necessarily the college, but as their deal. UM, I was kind of argumentative. UM. And I don't know, I just I guess I uh, you know, I knew you would do these kind of uh was not the aptitude test, but interest test. You know. It kind of channeled me that way. So at any rate, I find myself. I go to b y U and B y U was, UM, it was a good deal. I mean it was because I had an academic scholarship tuition scholarship to Wyoming. But Wyoming I felt like would have been similar to high school. See all the same people doing all the same things, and I just felt like, I, uh not really advanced as much as I might, although I you know, I loved Wyoming and the people there. And so then I went to B y U and uh, you know, which was uh, you know, higher higher academics and in kind of a you know, set up on a big scale, which I thought was pretty cool. And then, um and it was close enough to home, yet far enough far enough way to to do my thing, yet close enough to him to get back close enough by back then it was further. Back back then it was fifty speed limit. So so in in in snow, slush and rain, rain, if you were lucky, it was ten and a half hours away, so it was close enough to get back if you needed to. And then uh, uh so I go to b y U, got out of there, and eight semesters played rugby the all time at b y U, so you know, uh kept the competition thing going, kept the team concept thing going. We were good at rugby by us. B y U and CAL are the two greatest rugby institutions in America on the college level. And uh so that was fascinating all of a sudden. You know, there's me and guys from all over the world. You know, we're put together on a team. So that was a good deal. You know, we had New Zealand or South Africans, uh Maori's, Fijians, uh uh Tongans, Samoans, you know, just guys from from everywhere. Occasionally an Englishman or an Australian, but um, and then a handful of American football players. So we're going all over the country, um playing rugby. And so then uh, well, then I went to Pepper nine to law school, and uh uh about halfway through I got to thinking, you know, um, maybe I'd like to coach, and and some of the coach jam things started, um when I was fifteen years old in Wyoming you could drive when you were fifteen, which we can discuss whether that's a good idea or not. It's probably not. And then uh so I always had a baseball team. I had a baseball team from ages fifteen to myself or years in college. You know where uh I do my job and think about you know, uh it would be the best first basement and how to work out the pitching rotations young kids, you know the uh well, at various ages they were either uh, let's see idea. The first team I had was was I think eight and nine, and then then later on it was a little league you know, ten or twelve, and then it was a thirteen through fifteen. So I had all different phases of that. I didn't have the only one year of the eight nine year olds. After that, it was it was either little leaguer the fifteen how did the teams do? But we want yeah, we wont. Do you think that was because you were a good a better little league coach than most of the other coaches that you were coaching against, or do you think you were, like how how did you get the players? Did you draft him? Did you scout him? Oh? Well, you draft him. You draft him. And I actually had kind of a short end on the politics on that, because it helps you if you'd spawned the kid, especially especially if you spawned a good one, because he's automatically on your team. Yeah, then he's automatically on your team. So I didn't have that going for me, and then uh, I didn't. But yeah, you picked him, and then uh, but you know, I had a lot of youth and enthusiasm, and I think helped a lot. I think that, you know, I was excited, so our teams were excited, and uh, and I would try anything. You know, I wasn't caught up in convention. And then I'll tell you I had a guy, um and I cherished this relationship to this day. I always have regretted I haven't probably told him this and and I heard he passed away. Um, there was a guy. I worked at the the Holiday Inn. And it wasn't just a holiday in, it was this whole resort. So I was in Cody, Wyoming, Um, which is the east entrance of Yellowstone. So it was a it was a holiday inn, but also it was a whole bunch of cabins. You could stay in a cabin out back. They had a mobile home park you could stay there. They had a little frontier village, you know, kind of looked like an old western town. So it was a whole operation. And I was kind of a grounds maintenance whatever they needed done guy. Um when I was in college. But across the street was a ray Stock Hills office and two of the best coaches, UH baseball coaches and Cody and Cody was a baseball town um. And I grew up next to the barras Is. The barras Is Tuny Bears was um who was you know, the dad and had thirteen kids. And I was good friends with Chip Parris, who was the middle of the thirteen were the same age, so he was next door. The next place we lived out in the country, but there in the next place and then but Ray stock Hill, Um was a great coach there Cody for decades, and he had this accounting office and he was something out of a Norman Rockwell paintings. Great big guy, glasses down on his nose, deep distinct voice, always a cigar in his mouth, sometimes lit, sometimes not, depending on whether he was quitting or not. And um uh, you know, and just with bella stuff out. But just a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant baseball guy. And I would go over there and just ask him everything, and I mean everything, And I think even though we played each other, I mean he was just forthcoming and loved baseball. And I mean it would even be you know, he'd have a stack of tacks papers all over the place. He has a sole practitioner guy. There'd be taxed and papers everywhere. Heating care I mean it's baseball. So he'd lean back in his chair that would squeak and make noise and was all mashed up because he was big and and you know, just talk baseball, you know. And I remember one time I was coaching the All Star team, well you know, and I'd say, well, what's the layer? And we gonna do you know, what's his Casper like this, you know, I mean, so we'd go and it was it was really something, and I just learned a lot about coaching and just in general being a coach. And then and then you know my high school coach and John McDougal. Of course, he was kind of a rough guying got quite a lot out of his teams in which I was in the middle of and on the receiving end of. Then, um so, yeah, I had some good mentors there, but my conversations with Ray Stock I really cherished. And then, um then I moved from Cody, and then he moved from Cody, and I'd call him once in a while, just briefly, but he was he was really an inspiration. So you're halfway through law school and you decide you'd like to be a coach. Now, law school is not cheap. You said earlier that you also went and got a master's afterwards. But were you concerned at all about the finances? I mean, your first job you come out of law school and start coaching, is it cal Poly? I think, right, what what did you make to coach at cal Polgy? Well, when I got out of law school, I owed the federal government thirty eight thousand dollars and at that point in time it may as well been thirty eight million, because they were just as likely to get thirty eight million as they were thirty eight thousand. And um, because I didn't have anything. I mean, I had a bashed bashed up well let me see mebe it was brighter days then. Oh no, I had a seventy nine cadillactive heil. I loved that car. I probably should never should have sold it, but it started to rust out anyway. Um big looks like the Nick Nulty car on forty eight hour, except it wasn't. It was a hard top, a rag top, and it didn't it wasn't convertible, and um, you know, but it's how I sold it in valdostat one time. But the uh done well? Then I figure going leveragees thing up to forty five thousand, get a Masters and the chance to get my foot in the door to coach. What difference did it make? Uh? And uh because they you know, they weren't any more likely to get You can only kill me once, I figured, you know, and and so then I uh, well and then I'm I'm uh the sports Academy calling around trying to get a job, and then all of a sudden come home one day to the place we're staying in Daphne, Alabama, said hey, great news, got a job. She says, what we're at? I go Calpoli sand was abst focus and Louis Obispo is one of the most beautiful places on earth. Uh and to be perfectly on at San Louis Obispo. Depending what you're looking for rivals h Hawaii or Yellowstone, I mean, it's it's really something and and anybody that hasn't gone really needs to go. But um uh and it's isolated there on the central coast. I mean it's a place where it would be a dream to live. And then um, so San Louis Abismo allows tremendously good news. And and in part of it, see, I came out at about the worst time you could possibly come out, because it was the very year that they went from unlimited graduate assistance to where you can only have two So all these major programs were um cutting just massive numbers of graduate assistance and uh and so um because you know, there was a time where anybody would take free help. And if you could distinguish yourself. You'd have a chance to move in the profession if they reduced it to two for division one. So division one it's pretty much out. And so then Cal Pauli was Division two at the time. So then they armed me. I drive the big Cadillac, the old Cadillac up there to San Louis Obispo and uh and uh, well as my first started coaching, so she goes. So I tell her, you know, San Louis Obispo, and she says, well, how much were we gonna make? And I said three thousand. She says three thousand. What's the thirty three or three thousand a month? That equals thirty I go no, no, no, no, three thousand for the year. And uh, this is in nineteen this is in nine seven. So it's not like that long ago. No, it was, it was in the modern era. It was this was this was both colonial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I three thousand dollars a little bit more money, but it's still not that much money now. And it was yeah, and you're married, did you have kids? Yeah? Yeah. We lived in student housing and the one guy he lived in a place called Mustang Village, which was student housing, and the one guy was kind of cool. He says, all right. He says, uh, no problem. He says he could stay stay here, and he puts me up kind of in the back corner and no furniture, but he says, I got a mattress and throws a mattress up there, and we made a pile of blankets and stuff in the corner for my daughter and and uh and they had this really uptight couple downstairs. You know, one of those uh you know, you know that the students that think they're really evolved, you know, the type that they go to college, you learn one or two things. They think they really evolved, and had that blissfully yet judgmental expression on their face probably the first time they lived together. And uh, you know, they would knock on the ceiling if they felt like there was too much noise. And so then of course I practiced tribling the basketball and then um, so you know, and then after that I wouldn't hear too much from him, but uh, the now there's some great memories. And cal Pauly was the other thing is so then Hearing had to work, and um, and he worked for this entrepreneur guy and made some money and then in the off season, Um, I would substitute teach and then and Kelly and the state of California would pay you some substitute teach and so um, and back then it was probably about seventy dollars a day. And so I'd go substitute teach if if I didn't have to, you know, once the season was over enough, if I wasn't involved in recruiting or something like that, just any days I could get to make some money. So, I mean, what is your wife's response? And then you got a baby, you get a three thousand dollar a year coaching job, you have a law degree. Did she ever look at you and say, like, you're crazy? Why don't you just get a job as a lawyer? Well, I'll tell you it was kind of funny. At graduation from law school. My dad's always hated lawyers, so he started laughing. My mom wasn't happy. You know, you went to law school. You know, Sharon deserves the house and this and that. So my mom wasn't happy. Um. And then all right, her side of the family definitely wasn't pleased. Um. You know, it's like great news, Alright, Mike's got his law degree, all right, that's upstanding, where they going to live and all that. Well, Um, I got some news for you. We're gonna move to Alabama and get a master so I could coach football, you know. And uh and the thought really was, um, not necessarily to do it forever, but to do it for a year, uh maybe two or three, get it out of my system and and uh and go on from there. But she was always very supportive of it, you know. And she was always kind of ready to go along for the right. And the thing is, and I wouldn't be here without my wife, Sharon. And then, um, she made more than money than I did for ten years, I mean on this whole journey, for ten years, she made most of the money. And that wasn't like crazy money. This isn't one of those you know where she was like a Merry Kay executive or or you know, a high school teacher or a nurse or something like that, or a pharmaceutical salesperson. This is this is a deal where you know, a very good one, but administrative assistant, maybe illegal secretary, you know, handling all this stuff at somebody's office type of deal. And and uh so no, she she made more money than I did for for over ten years. When you're living in that apartment, you said you had a mattress and then you had some blankets for the baby to sleep on. Did you actually have furniture while you were there? That kind of you know, I mean there were some built ins, but no, not really. So you're so you're there for a year and then you go to some place called College of the Desert. Where is College of the Desert? Palm Desert, California. Um, A lot of people wanting to live there right now. Um it's uh yeah, Palm Desert, California, sore just east of Palm Springs. So you make Cowege. You made three thousand dollars a year at cow pol. You go to College of the Desert and what do they pay you? I've made I think I made ten. That's a big race. But it's still not a lot of money. But it's a big race. Yeah. No, that was that was an exciting day. M grant and so then again, uh substitute teach you know in between. Um so, but yeah, in California had a funny deal. I mean at one time there's a great deal. There was a time when California opened their j c's all these coaches, I mean, they make crazy money if they get one of those slots with the California j C. And there's like ninety of them, you know, and then what happened. It was such a sweet deal. They these these coaches would get on the track and then they quit coaching, and there was designed to open up teaching slots for coaches so you could have coaches. Well, these guys would stick around quick coach and let me not have the aggregation to coaching and then teach like two tennis classes and still get the same salary. So you know, I mean, uh yeah, so so you know sometimes, uh, the policies there, you know, they've always had interesting politicis of that state that that would be one of them. Did you coach in Japan? Well, I did a camp. I did a camp in Japan. I didn't coach in Japan. I did a camp and then which was pretty that was that's kind of a neat deal almost. If you ever saw the movie Mr Baseball, Uh, if you want to see two movies that are great in Japan's Japan is a fascinating place, but two movies that are great as far as kind of the disconnect between the the West and the East, like in Japan, Mr Baseball and lost in translation, and we stayed in that same hotel that lost in translation was and uh but no, that crazy stuff because you know, they have a variety of customs that you're just not familiar with, you know, and you're not trying to tack anybody off or nothing, but um you know, uh like for example, in Japan, there's no spitting on the field. It's bad form to spit on the field where you know, Americans spit right left and in the middle, you know. And then um uh and then uh so we come off the field and the only thing that saved it from being me is these guys beat me to it. So these two other American coaches, um, um beat me to this thing. Um So they have this tub so in the lock and this is in one of those like where the Tokyo Giants played or somebody. So it was like a major stadium. There's a stadium where one of their you know, their major league teams play and that type of thing. And it was this aster of turf field and we did camp out there all day long, tons and tons and tons of players and it's a combination of corporate league and youth leagues, you know, because these corporations all have a football team and you know, like IBM or somebody. And then so we're out there all day having these uh, you know, drills and competitions and stuff and and uh, and there's a tub in the locker room and so these big guys go in there and they and they immediately getting a tub and starts splashing around and the tubs like a jacuzzi, but it's got no jets. And next to that tub is these uh, these uh kind of big bowls like you put popcorn in or something. And um, and then all of a sudden, he's Japanese guys are surrounding the tub, standing there staring at the tube. GUIs flashing around, cooling off in the tub. Um, you know, with their arms folded, a little bit fuddled, like what do we do with this? Well, this is so improper. Well something has to be done, but there are guests, so what are we gonna do? And then um, Dave the guy that brought us over. And and Dave was a guy who was from Hawaii, but he'd been on a mission, a Mormon mission there in Japan. Spoke Japanese and just love Japan. So he was over there. Uh he's still coaching over there now, I believe, because he brings his team out to our place all the time. But um he says, hey, hey, you can't do you can't do that. No, this is part of their ceremony things. So in Japan they had this deal and I don't know the symbolism of it, and a lot of times that involves ancestors and things like that, but that cub was designed for as you take a shower, you to scoop out the water and ceremoniously the water goes over one shoulder, goes over the other shoulder, then goes over your head. It wasn't for two Americans just basically canon ball into and start splashing around. And so yeah, the look on those guys space was priceless. And so then they got out of the tub. And then the funny thing is that you had the tightly tightly contested competitions, I mean crazy tightly contested, and then in the end, um, uh, they would settle it, you know, they'd get the top three teams. They'd settle it by doing rock paper scissors, And I'm not sure I always thought that that, you know, that was a US invention. They see the two he has them of it, and what was at stake and and um what they saw with and I'm not sure japandon and that that stuff be sure to catch Live editions about kicked the coverage with Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. We're talking to Mike Leach. You're listening to the Winds and Lost his podcast Coach Leaches with Washington State, UH Cougars. They've been on a good run. We're gonna get to that in a little bit. But so you're in Japan, you're making relatively small amounts of money. What was your break and at what point did you start thinking, you know what, maybe I'll be able to do this and actually make a living doing it. The one place I did coach though overseas is I wasn't in Finland for a season. I coached in Bory, Finland for a season. How did how did you end up in Finland? Well, they'd lost the coach late. I always wanted to go oversee but as broke and so then all of a sudden they're looking for a coach. So I I had for it, and it was you know, it was kind of an interesting year because I uh uh so I you know, all of a sudden finished guys. So I went over there and uh they have a finished foot finish American Football League at the time. Yeah. Yeah, So it's kind of it's basically like uh uh, it's basically like the team would be ages, like my youngest was probably fifteen, my oldest was probably forty five, which was older than me at the time, and then um, you know the factory workers, students that type of thing, and then um, you know you could have one American on the team. Uh uh, well one American on the field on either side of the ball. And then um, anyway, they the the the So I'd coached the College of the Desert and then I get over there to Finland somewhere around April, and then um coached there the whole time until football started at Iowa Wesleyan College. And I went to Iowa Wesleyan College coach with a guy named hell Mummy, uh which you know he was a great coach. And that's where um the air raid is as far as you know, uh, our portion of it evolved. And then um, the so how did you end up? How did how much? How did you find how mummy? And how did he find you? Well? I met how at d y U spring football, so we went to b y U spring football to study what they were doing. He'd just gotten a job at at Iowa Westleyan College, and UM, I was going to throw the ball and all that sort of thing. So college in the desert as coaching linebackers, which I think helped me a lot, you know, as I became an offensive coach, but um, as coaching linebackers, wanted to get back on offense. Uh, I wanted to coach offensive line. He got the job and and because that's what I had first done at cal Poly, was assistant offensive line coach. And then he gets the job and uh at Iowa Wesley and then UH hired me and then UH trying to think what I made, I think I made thirteen thousand and then UM and then uh well, and there was no substitute teaching really, and I it wasn't very productive too, because they only paid like thirty dollars a day to substitute teach. You know, it was better off learning football and sticking with that, you know in UM. But Uh. So you guys are there for several years, you start having some success, and then three years and then how mummy goes to Valdosta State is then you follow him? Yeah? Then I went with Aldobaldosta. And so I'm fascinated by this. You go from Valdosta State to Kentucky. What did it feel like to go up? Because at that point in time, you have coached at cal Poly College of the Desert, the POORI Bears, I think we said over in Finland, Iowa, Wesleyan, Valdosta State, and then suddenly you're the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach at Kentucky and this is Did that feel like a totally different universe? Well, it was a little bit. I mean, so we're at Valdosta State for three years, then went to uh then went to Valdosta, which I loved Valdosta, I mean one of place and Valdosta you know, it was football seven. I mean that's I'm They're obsessed with football in Valdosta, right, I mean it's like the I mean, even in a country that is obsessed with football, Valdosta is like a different level of obsession. Right. Oh yeah, they called it winners Ville And when kids were born in Valdosta, they'd give him a football. Yeah, and then uh and and you know, and it's uh. I mean when when I was there, they uh, let's see they had uh they've gone to the state I mean just a state championship a crazy number of times. Um. And for people who don't know, and I was people listening all over the country, Valdosta is in Georgia, and it's basically right down on the border between Georgia and the state of Florida, right, I mean right in the football heavy universe. Yeah. And it's right on the shores of the Oki Finoki Swamp. So I mean it's it's old school, and it's uh, just a very place. Moss on the trees. You might drive by alligators or one might come up behind your apartment. Um, great little streams and lakes to go fishing on. I mean, it's a great place. And so then the food is just outstanding. And then uh, and it was hot too, Like everybody says that wherever they're it's hot. Now it's not as hot as veldof well except for College of the Desert that's hotter. And then um oh and Iowa in August might be hotter but anyway other than that, and so then um veld off but for five years got hired by the University of Kentucky. Hell did Yeah, I went to Kentucky whereas offensive coordinator. And did you feel like you were rich when you got I mean, I at that point, I don't know what you're making, but thirteen thousand dollars at Iowa Wesley and I don't imagine you were making a ton of Valdosta. Do you remember what your offensive coordinator salary was at Kentucky. Yeah, it's like seventy or something. And so anyway, that was guide to the turning point. Yes, the turning point, like some somewhere about the time I got the Kentucky job is when um, I guess I realize I can't say realized, but they're just because I never really felt pinned in one way or the other. Um. Yeah, it's when I felt like that I would probably uh, you know, coach, and that uh, there wasn't going to be any going back to law that I would probably coach because probably to that point I really had ruled out going back to law. But um, but about the time I got that job at Kentucky, I kind of assumed that I would uh coach from here on. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. Well, so the reason why I'm asking you about salary as coach, we got a lot of people listening. We're talking to Mike Leech. This is the Winds and Losses podcast with Clay Travis. I like to focus on people finding something that they enjoy and it becomes a passion and the money might not follow that passion for a long time. And it's possible the money never does follow. But you have been coaching for a long time before you got to make in seventy thousand dollars a year, right, so you had to love in some way what you were doing and you weren't motivated by the money that you were making at that point in time. Oh no, I let's say so, so let's say between uh eight seven, let's see eighty seven two, three, four five six, So at least over ten years, over ten years, my salary was between three and forty and my wife made more uh uh continued to pop up kids, how many how many kids did you have? Because I mean your wife's making more is administrative assistant. But I mean, you guys are I mean, I'm there's a lot of people out there listening who are going to know this feeling. I mean, you guys are are not in any way putting away a lot of money. It's not like you had savings. It's not like anybody. We didn't have any money. Yeah, we we we we were okay. So in l A, we lived in the barrio, which was actually kind of cool, like you know, um, you know. I talked to my you know, players recruits. They said, well, you've never lived in the hood. Now, that's not true. I lived in the hood for three years. During that years there going to law school where we had the bars on the window and the helicopter would fly over at night and shun select in the window. Because Pepperdines in Malibu, but you couldn't afford to live out by a Pepperdine. No. I lived in Canoga Park, and I can tell you exactly. I lived between Van Owen and Sherman Way off of the Soto and and um and uh no. It was uh uh no. It was like the barrio back there and then um, and which I enjoyed it. I mean I I mean I didn't have a problem. I mean there was you know, gang spreak paint on stuff, but you know, nobody was really unfriendly to me per se. And then um, going my balcony kind of see it come together. Sometimes you hear gunshots that the place next to me. You know, they would uh there would be some celebration or a party and started playing the music and and I could look over in the backyard, and I got along with these guests too, because um, you know, I was playing kind of a men's league baseball team, and so I throw the ball around with the kid next door in in in his parents place. You know how they they've uh, you know, a bunch of the Mexican families get over there and have a party and you can see and they'd be playing the music. And then you know about midnight or one, um, the you know, the kids and the wives and kids would go home. Those going to stay out there and start shooting firearms up in the air. I mean not at anybody, but just sort of like fireworks. They just pull their guns out and just fired up in this Yeah, just just started tortured, you know, and then whoao you know, and then uh uh but now you know again it was it was kind of an edgy place, but I never I never really felt threatened that I knew I wouldn't live there forever, you know, but I did want to learn as much about it as I could. So you're studying, like contract law, sitting in your apartment in the l A area, and it's you know, midnight or whatever, and then somebody just starts shooting off guns to celebrate a party next door. Yeah you could, but after a while you could almost hear it coming. Um, initially I thought it was firecrackers. Well then the other thing it was, you know, be the music and stuff like that. Oh. Sometimes you'd go, um, maybe drive to school or something, and there'd be a sign shot up or something that had been shut up before. Uh. We're right on the shores of the l A River and the l A River. The banks of the l A River. It's not even in fact a river. It's a spillway. It's the ugliest river run earth. But we had shoreline, a shoreline apartment run the l A River. That's it. Oh yeah, no, I've seen it a bunch, I mean, and the only time it ever has water almost is when it's like a few times when it rains, and then it's like a flood. Right, oh yeah, and then typically it's used for car chases and movies and and then, um, so we're right on the banks of the l A River. Oh this was kind of cool. Okay, So of time, you hear these tires screeching, you know, around the corner, and these were kind of tight corners, you know, like um, you know, with kind of apartments and stuff like that. Well, so all of a sudden, uh, this car flips and the car in front stops and they're both in their brand new Masdes, kind of sporty looking Masdes. There's there's one cars upside downs, and neighbors commerciing out me included, helped this guy out of his car, and um, your knees all kind of shaken up and and um, and I don't know if he spoke English or not, but he's all kind of shaken up, and we're all right, don't worry. You know, we've called the ambulance. You know they're coming. You know they're going to be here to help you. Well, so then you you hear the you know, the sirens. Police show up right away, and you know, all right, like what happened or something like that. And and then and then all of a sudden, you say, you know, you look for the guy. They asked, all right, now who was driving the car? You look for the guy he's turned run. The last time I saw him, he'd gone through a spot in the fence, a space in the fence, and he was running up the l A River getting out of there as fast he could. Turns out those cars were stolen. Yeah, and then um, so I mean, you know it had its own you know kind of deal. And so then uh, and then you know, driving to Pepperdine, we were against traffic both ways, so that worked out. And then um uh yeah, and then um but uh uh well, let's see. So Janine was born in l A uh in l A while we were in law school. And then uh, Kim was born in uh Burlington I while we were at IWA Wesleyan College. And and my son Cody, he was born in veld Asta and uh, and then Kirsten was born. Uh. Kirsten was born literally about two hours before I raised the catch the plane to go play the University of Florida in Gainesville, in Lexington, Kentucky. You guys had I went and watched some of your games when you were at Kentucky. You had the air Raid, you had everybody like wearing the like helmets. If I remember correctly, he had Tim Couch. I think if I'm if I'm if I'm remembering all this correct, Tim, Tim Catch was a quarterback. Yeah, did you recruit Tim Couch? And actually that was Bill Curry, right, And then he was already there when you guys got there. He was already there in in Um, he was already there and it wasn't a perfect matchup for everybody. Um, so, uh, Tim was already there and he was thinking about transferring when you guys got hired, right, Well, because you know, Bill ran an option type of stuff and that's what was best for him. Won't worked for him. And then, um, you know that's not really Tim's deal, the quarterback, you know, getting the quarterback involved in the Yeah, it never made any sense for a Tip Touch to have ever signed with Bill Curry in the first place. That must have been a hell of a recruiting job. Well, it's one of those awkward things and you know you see it from time to time. It's one of those things where you know, he's the best player in the state. So you're gonna get in a bunch of trouble if you don't recruit him. And then if you do recruit him. Um, if you do recruit him, then there's another set of problems, you know, because what you're doing doesn't fit that guy or whatever. You know. And um, so he's kind of a perfect fit for your offense. Right to be able to throw the ball over the fields as quarterback you've ever had. Uh, you know, he might be the most talented. He's really talented. He could make every throw right. I mean he had a big time arm. Oh he was like well, tim six four way two pounds. Uh, real quick footed, not as fast as he was quick footed. Um, the first pick in the draft and deserved it. You know, went to an expansion team and got swallowed up there a little bit, but then then had some injuries. But if he didn't go to an expansion team, I think catch is one of the great ones that we're talking about, you know. So he ends up at the Browns when they started football again. He's second on the team in rushing and he runs the four nine. So he was running for his life the best he could. And then um he uh uh but now he he was real talented and then uh and wish we'd had him more, he declared after his junior year. But he was the first pick in the draft. So um, from that standpoint, some of that made some sid Now what was that like coaching in Kentucky? You talked about how much you like Valdosta. I mean, Lexington is a beautiful town. Oh, it's a great town, a great town, great people. Um. You know the one thing that if if the University of Kentucky is doing anything, the whole state's involved. I mean Kentucky, the University of Kentucky could be having at Jack's tournament and um uh trivial pursuit or whatever you I mean name it, I mean in the whole states involved. And uh so that part was really outstanding. I really liked Kentucky. And then um, and you guys are there where Rick Pettino was winning a title, right. Uh. Patino had won the national championship one year, was deep into it the next couple. Yeah, heeds a He's a good guy, always very supportive of us. And then Rick went to the the Celtics, and then Tubby Smith came in and say it was really successful too, Yeah, I mean one A title. So you're starting to have a lot of success. You're scoring a lot of points. You got the overall number one recruit, I mean sorry, number one draft pick in Tim Couch, and then you get an opportunity like that. At that point did you start thinking I want my own shop? Like when did you start thinking, Hey, I'd like to be a head coach. Well, I'd always thought that from the beginning, but I wasn't in any hurry and I was gonna and and actually, uh could have been head coach at vald Austin if I hadn't gone to Kentucky. And that was one of the toughest decisions I had to make, was you know, whether I stay at veld aust or whether How did you decide that? A lot of times people have tough decisions to make. You could be a head coach of Valdosta, you could go to be an offensive coordinator at Kentucky. How close did you come to stay in at Valdosta? Close? Because I loved Valdosta, I mean part of it. I stayed up all night, stayed up all night, and then I um hurried to the plane to Lecington in the morning. So until like that morning, you didn't even know what you were going to decide to do until you hopped on the plane to fly to Lexington. I honestly figured that out about two hours before the plane left. And then um, and then went to Kentucky and then um uh uh well, and then you know, we had two really good years there. I should have gone to a bowl both years. Came really close the first year, then been to a bowling forever. They won one game the year before, and then and then we uh went to the Outback Bowl the next year, and then um and then um well, then I had the chance to be offensive coordinator at the University of Oklahoma, which what was exciting about that was Bob Stoops had just gotten hired. Were about the same age, and then um uh uh well, and they had the number one defense in the SEC at Florida. He was he was the coach at a defensive coordinator for spurry or at Florida, right, and then we had the number one offense, and then the opportunity to combine that I think was intriguing to both of us. And so then I went to Oklahoma and I thought I'd be there for ten years and then um um and you know we uh had quite a bit of success that first year because there Oklahoma hadn't gone to a bowl. Uh, they are towards the bottom of the conference. Offensively, Uh, we end up towards the top pleaded passing. Um. You know, I think we were third points, which was kind of impressive when you consider um, Nebraska and Texas were just on a tear then and then um and then uh anyway go to a ball and so then we uh um, Well then I get the chance to go to Texas Tech, which was surprising. How did that happen? So you're you're did you have an agent? Like how do you get reached out to at that time in two thousand by Texas Tech? I didn't have an agent, but then I had kind of one ready to step in if anything came my way, because you know, uh, agents don't really find your jobs. I mean, um, they always tell you they can or at least maybe uh. And you know, I've had some good advice and I've had something uh that we're quite beneficial from an agent and um, especially with contracts and things like that. But you know, those jobs are pretty much they either come your way or you find them yourself, you know. And uh um, but you know he was I had a pretty good one ready to go. And so then I got hired a text Tech And had you ever been to lot of like how did you do the interview process? Like how did that happen? I'd been to love it before. Uh, I've been to love it before. Uh shoot, blew all that interview process and love it was an unmitigated disaster. It was a disaster about it. Okay, So so uh so um, well and all this was very forthcoming to you know, to Bob Stoops and everybody, and so you know, and I told him, you know, I'm talking to Texas Tech and this that the other thing. And so I talked to Tech in Oklahoma City and then the idea was we're going to play Texas Tech. And it was Spike Taxas last Game, a guy that I really admire. Um. And actually I wouldn't talk to Tech until I got his blessing on taking a job because I wasn't going to take a job at Texas Tech unless I felt like Spike was supportive of me, you know. Uh. Uh you know, Spike was the winning his coach in the history of Tech and some other things, and I just thought that was important and so um and and so you know, Spike says, you know, it's a good job. I'm retiring and you have to go take it right And so then I, um, so I talked to Tech and then uh so the idea is is, um, Oklahoma, uh is going to play in Lovock. It's Spike's last game and playing Oklahoma. So then, uh, I guess these guys hiring me thought Oklahoma was gonna cruise to a victory and then they were going to be heroes for hiring me or something like that. But so we go down there and uh and we get beat by Tech. I mean, we don't get crushed, but we get beat, you know, and it's I don't know that Tech trailed the whole game, you know, and uh and Cliff Kingsbury was a quarterback of it. It would become my quarterback in a few months. But um then uh so we go down there and we get beat and uh and so the idea is this, uh is right after the game, I'm supposed to go to the hotel and then go over there and uh, interview with Texas Tech. Okay, so so then um, I go, they know I'm staying behind. I go, I go put on my suit and all this stuff. So I looked all spiffy and I come out of my hotel room and who's down in the lobby but the entire University Oklahoma party, all the coaches, all the players, president, everybody. And what had happened? Now, some of these charter airlines are just super sleazy, okay, and um, so what had happened is, um, so we get beat, Um, we'll go back to hotel. And it was not my favorite hotel as a matter of fact, well the worst hotel we stayed at on the road. And we come out of the hotel and in Oklahoma gets there after the game and they say, okay, the charter services, we've broken a wheel in Phoenix. We're not coming to get you. And uh and you know, oh you says what they said, we're not coming, And they said, so you're gonna be late out lately? Are you going to be before can get us? They said, no, you don't understand, we're not coming to get you at all. And and and so there's Oklahoma just stranded there in the lobby is they're frantically trying to get busses to load them up and drive them back to Norman, and which is a long, a long ass trip, right, yeah, let me think you'd be probably it's probably five hours and so and so then I go, so I go to this interview with that rolling in my head. Well, okay, and then of course that's like a morgue. I mean, some of these guys, you know, they want to tell all their friends they've got some hotshot coach that you don't see, how much better to tech? Well, we just got to beat so, you know. So then uh and so then uh after uh kind of a downer of an interview of which I can't say that I was on her percent responsible for, um but uh, other than if you know, maybe if I called a few better place or I don't know, but but anyway, Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna be resulted determinative everything, you're probably not going to get the results you want. So then, um, so I go back to the hotel and by then Oklahoma's limped out of there on these buses that I guess has had parts flying off and it come from Amarillo or somewhere some other town and uh, and so then I get in the lobby. We're supposed to go out dinner with this group and the son of again there's two players left behind to Oklahoma sooners left behind at the hotel who have missed the bus. How did they miss the bus? While they're trying to gather up these So it's after the game, they're trying to gather up these uh these you know, they get the news that the plane's not coming. Okay, then they're trying to gather these busses. And rather than and this isn't that big of a lobby, and rather than have this lobby buss to get the seams, they told guys they could go up to their rooms and hang out in their rooms. The hotel to let them go up to their rooms or whatever. And these guys have fallen asleep. And then in the meantimes they've gotten the buses already. Everybody down the bus. Off we go, and the buses left without them, and uh, and so then I see him and well then, you know, but I'm still in Oklahoma, soitor, you know, and I'm and you know, the number one thing to me is to get welfare of these guys and and uh make sure they get home. And so I'm trying to call the bus and let them know the deal so they can sort something out. And then of course there's a lot of dead spots between Lubbock and Norman, you know, going through West Texas with regard to cell phones and busses and um. So anyways, uh, and finally get through finally, Uh so then they're of course surprised, and then um and then there were some boosters staying behind that they were able to get a ride with the next day, and so then you know, go to the dinner and so then you know, that's kind of lackluster. So then I had another interview. It's almost like the guys doing the hiring and the guys doing the hiring and me to well, they decided to do a do over, you know. Uh, let's they decided to do a do over, and so then they brought me into Dallas. We had another interview, and then they hired me that you know, uh, flew me in on the private room met in Dallas. Uh, the interview interviewed and flew to Lovock and uh, trying to nail that thing down. And then so then I went back to Norman, and I went back to Norman thought about it, and I had a lot of anxiety with that, you know, because we've done a lot of good things, Paul. But I recruited Josh Hyppel me and Josh Hippel when we first got there with the two most wanted guys in the state of Oklahoma, because you know, um, I thought you could throw the ball at the University of Oklahoma and Josh Hippel was a quarterback who couldn't run, and so um, nobody in Oklahoma was interested in either one of those things. And uh, and then of course, after three or four games, you know, and became kind of exciting. And then with that season, the first season alone, Josh broke every season record that existed passing wise, and know U history, and then um, and so you know, it's tough emotionally for me to leave Oklahoma. And then, uh, the plane gets delayed. Looks like you say, you got this press conference, going plane gets delayed because it had dropped like eight inches of snow, so they can't get the plane out or between you know, me thinking about whether I'm going to go to the altar or not that planes life and uh, well, anyway, I finally got on the plane and and uh yeah, I went to Lovebock. Are you surprised now that Cliff Kingsbury's a head coach? You said he was your quarterback when you started at Texas Tech. Would you have ever believed that when you met him the first time that he'd be an NFL coach one day? I didn't know about NFL, but I would have been very surprised if he wasn't a coach, because the way he thought and the way he prepared, the way he thought, the way he prepared. As Dad was a coach, he was always pretty much coach material from square one. I knew Cliff would was going to be a coach, and uh, no question. And um I knew he'd be a coach. I guess I figured he'd be a college coach, you know, I NFL. I didn't know if he'd be an NFL coach, not because the NFL is lofty or per se. I mean some cases now it's you know, it's well, that's all different subject. But suffice it to say, the best football, uh, the best coaching being done in the country is not the NFL anymore. When you and I were kids, it was, but it's not anymore. And um uh, the best coaching is in college, no question. The best coach is probably a high school coach somewhere because there's more of them and they're very dedicated, smart people. But I think that the best coaching is being done in college, and um, and then and that hasn't always been the case. And then, um uh, you know, the the NFL is full of all these thirtysomething guys that were quality control guys for somebody or other, especially Bill Belichick, and then all of a sudden, you know, uh, I think they know how to coach, but really haven't coached much, you know. I mean that's like saying I lived next door to a doctor soldue surgery, you know what I mean? And um, and look you could tell I mean, you know what, when when you and I were kids, you never turned on an NFL game and somebody wasn't lined up right, never, not ever. And so what you had is you had these older coaches that were extremely smart. As they got old and lost a certain amount of their energy, became uninspired and maybe the team was uninspired, but they still knew how to line up. Well. Now they might be inspired pigs. I mean there're be guys that aren't even lined up and um so anyway, but I I think Clisse and all Edgible offensive coach. And I think I think he's gonna have a free for all some of those defenses. So you think he'll do well in the NFL. I think he'll do well on offense, you know, I mean as far as you know, I guess in a way, you know, and and you know, I mean he had some problems there tech as far as the head coach, and I don't you know, I don't I know he's got the title head coach, but you know, uh, you know, in the NFL sometimes these guys will you know, they hire the special teams coordinator first, and they hire this guy second, and they are this guy third, then they hire the head coach fifth, and then they say, oh, you're the head coach. Well you're something, but you're not the head coach. You might have the title of head coach, but you know, if all those guys work for somebody else rather than you, you're something, but you're not the head coach, you know. Um And then uh, but I do think it's fair to say that he's gonna run the offense with a certain amount of impunity. I hope and if he does. Um, if he does, they're gonna have an extremely tough time stopping him. Do you feel like when you went to Oklahoma you mentioned Josh Hypel, the last two number one picks have been Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray, and they're both big time playmakers. You basically changed the culture of a school, right and obviously Bob Stoops is a huge part of that. But as you said, he was a defensive guy. The one year you spent there really kind of altered the paradigm of everything that Oklahoma does on the offensive side the ball. Well, they've had their most successful years when they run a raid concepts and then and then of course, uh now at Oklahoma, I lose track of everybody. You know, probably leave somebody out. But Lincoln Riley worked for me for like eight years. I mean Lincoln, I've raised Lincoln, So Lincoln Riley, UH strength coach Penny Wiley worked for me. Uh I recruited and coach Bill beaton By the on line coach, and he worked for me, worked with Kale Gundy. Dennis Simmons gave him his first significant job and his first coaching job, the receiver coach. Hopefully I'm not leaving somebody out there. Rufa McNeil. On defense, he worked for me and it was my DC at one time. Alex cranch I gave him his first defensive coordinator jobs. Roy Manny he worked for me. Parker Henry played for me. He coaches there. Um and let's see who else on defense there's somebody, oh, Brian Odom worked for me, um and played for me to actually and then um, so yeah, I've had I've had a whole bunch of those guys, and I'm probably leaving two out. I just can't think of him. But um the so, yeah, I got a lot of connections and tentacles to Oklahoma and then um the other I'll tell you another interesting things just circumstantially, Um, Baker Mayfield. Uh, I was the only BCS school that offered by Baker Mayfield Washington State. Uh, We're the only BCS school that offered Baker. So what did you see that Baker that you thought you'd watched him play down in Austin, Uh and and thought this is a guy who can who play at the highest level. Yeah, he was, Uh, well he was real accurate. He is real accurate. Um uh, and he's very competitive, real competitive. Uh played at Lake Travis, very comp real accurate. I had had a lot of success, had good feet, more quick footed than fast. Um, you know, he could keep the thing alive. And then uh uh you know in the knock on him was it was he was short and he had a weak arm. But I just figured he would get bigger and stronger, you know, Um, you know he was. You know he was because you know, he was light, and I never worry about weight because you're gonna put weight on, you put weight on. He probably get a little stronger too, So I didn't have a problem with that. And um, so we offered him. And then uh, he wanted to go to school closer to home, and so he ends up walking on at Texas Tech and then um, well that didn't end well. So then he uh and then but he had by then he had a few games under his belt and in uh Oklahoma. Um, when he transferred, Oklahoma put him on scholarship, and of course he did pretty well. So you mentioned Lincoln Riley worked with you for eight years. How quickly could you tell that Lincoln Riley potentially would be a head coach one day? Is that something you can tell almost within a six months a year? I mean you've had a lot of coaches over the years, or is it something where sometimes you're surprised. I thought he'd be a head coach, and I thought he'd be a good one. I thought Lincoln was a guy. I cut him and tried to hire him the same day. Um, we had like nine quarterbacks out there one spring, and Lincoln picked up the offense really quickly, asked good questions, was a good communicator. Um. I didn't think Lincoln was nearly as good as a quarterback as Lincoln thought he was. And Um, because Lincoln linco quarterbacks, assured me that he lead us to a championship by just giving him a chance and whatnot. And I figured I'd let him do that in the coaching role. And so then, you know, I explained, you know, but i'd like you to go. You know, I've got too many quarterbacks. I can't keep you at quarterback. I'll have to cut it at the answer might as well cut you now, but I'd like it, you know, to coach and work with us a coach, and obviously if you don't hold up your hand work will fire you. But I think you'd be a very good coach because of business and you know, you communicate well, you picked up the offense really well. You're clearly a very smart guy, and you know, and it was the role of being my right hand assistant. In other words, he was going to work with me as far as the anything I needed, as far as film notes, uh, coaching quarterbacks, which that blends into the recipe. He was really the whole offense, which you know, if you want to run what we do or care anything about, um what I do, it's about the best position you can get and so um. And then he wasn't happy if I getting caught, and so he uh he says, well, I have to talk to some people, and uh, I think he would talk to his parents and had I coach and some folks like that. I'm not sure we talked to him. Then, so he left and he wasn't pleased. He says, well, he could tell he's pissed. Oh well, I appreciate it, but I don't know. I'm gonna have to talk to some people. You know, I might transfriving, decide what I'll do. So then he's out of the but I'll let you know something tomorrow. And I figured he wouldn't let me know, But sure enough, late afternoon the next day came in, said he was gonna do it. He's all in it, and he really did a good job. How quickly can you tell you said you offered Baker Mayfield? How quickly can you tell, having coached as long as you have, whether a guy can work in your offense or not. You had Gardner Minshew who came in and he was immediately successful. You obviously have an offense that lends itself to I think being called quarterback friendly however you would phrase that. But when you watch tape, how long does it take you to be like, yeah, that's a guy who can work in my system, that's a guy who can't. How quickly can you go through and look? Now you know it takes a little bit, but um, it takes a little bit. But the other thing is, um uh, the biggest thing, honestly is how hard they're gonna work, you know, how tirelessly they'll work. Um, you know, if they work just in the sane hard Um, you know, that's that's the defining thing. I mean, you have to start out with you know a few things. You know, you've got to be accurate, you've got to make good decisions, and then some combination of good feet, strong arm, and fast, which of course nobody in the NFL Hall of Fames all five of those things. So and then you know who can elevate the offensive effort and inspire the others around him to play well. And so then um, uh, you know, so I think that, uh, you know, you start with all that, but then you're gonna they're gonna have to work crazy hard, and then it will be a competitive situation, and then they have to elevate within that setting. And that's harder to tell, right because until you've coached them. You know, you know if it's a good starting point, but until you've coached them, and sometimes you have to push him into it, and the rest, you're really not quite sure. You know, what you mentioned earlier that you would try anything. You said, you know when you first started coaching, you would try anything for people out there who may not be that familiar with your offensive style of football. What does the air ray do differently that maybe people in old school football would have said, oh, this doesn't work. Oh you can't do this. Most people are not XS and OS expert. But what did you do that sort of change the way that that that that football would be lined up? And honestly, you heard for so long, oh that stuff works in college. It won't work in the pros. But it worked in high school, it works in college, and it sure seems to be working in the pros now too. What have you guys done differently? Well, everything works at any other level, works at nearly every other level as well, you know, I mean, and everybody thinks their levels so special that only certain things will work. And obviously that's ridiculous. But and um uh, but I think that, um, well, a couple of things was that. You know, somehow I think are our thoughts on balance? You know a lot of people thought that balance is run pass, which there's nothing balanced about that, because odds are you're leaving at least two skilled players out of the offensive effort. Balance to me is a distribution of offensive contribution or yards by position to the offense. It's of effort. In other words, you have, um, you have five skill players skill positions, and there should be some level of equality as far as what they're contributing to the offensive effort, whether it's on the ground or in the air, the running back should have the most. Though in our running back sometimes will lead the league in total yards and um and we're usually in almost without exception, in the top three. And then uh uh so balanting and you know, balance and distribution, I mean balances everybody contributing to the offensive effort, whether it's in the air, on the ground, in all positions contributing, and you try to get the ball to all positions. UM. I think sometimes there's a notion that you have to block everybody. If you have to block everybody, the defense can put you out of business. And the reason they can is because on the offensive side, somebody's got to hold the football. And if that's the case, if somebody's got old in the football, then they can always bring more than you can block with. UM. So you know you have to have uh schemes, thoughts are a package to get rid of the ball before they can get there. Um. You know, some of these guys are constantly trying to run the ball into an eight man front. I can't think of much dumber things to do. They try to run the ball into an eight man front. UM. I mean, that's why it's eight man front because they're saying you can't run the ball. They're old. But you know, I've had a lot of success throwing it into an eight man front. I haven't had any running it into it. UM. You know that type of things. I think that we try to be very versatile and flexible as far as able to adjust that the line of scrimmage, you know, I think, and it comes in different shapes and sizes. Different quarterbacks and players are capable of different things. But the guy that gets the last look as the quarterback, and you have to be able to UM. You don't want to be stuck with a bad play. And I don't mean just the general audible thing. You don't want to be stuck with a bad play. UM are limited in what you can do. UM. When the defense changes or does something that they're only going to do every so often, you want to be able to attack it, and you want to you want to be able to have the ability to attack something in those situations. Be sure to catch live editions about kick the Coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're talking to my leach, Washington State football coach. This is the Wins and Losses Podcast. I'm Clay Travis. Um, you have a single game, right this is the game to end all games. You can't coach yourself, but you have to pick somebody to coach for you. Who do you think is the best football coach right now? They get two weeks, three weeks, however long you want to prepare. There's lots of discussion about who can beat who what, and they can run their own offensive system or their own defensive system, everything else. Who do you think is the best coach in football right now? Uh? That's stuff to say. Um, you know it's always tough to say because I always try to measure it by uh, you know, the resources they have and the college. It's a big part, right the real I think you told me before in a radio interview that some schools recruit, others give invitations, and obviously there's a big difference between which one you are, so the quality of players to nificantly different. But if you had to coach me put it this way, if you had to coach against somebody, who would make you the most nervous if you were coaching for your life on the other side, preparing against you. It's fun It's funny because these guys, all these these guys, will you know that. It's it's like whoever comes in first, second, or third, all of a sudden, those guys are geniuses, you know. Um, oh god, this is so brilliant. I mean they ran it up the middle. I mean, can you believe they thought of that? You know? And then and then um uh I always e gage it by and you can pick whatever objects you want, like say in a conference, you know, what's the best job or what's the best team or whatever. If the same person was coaching each team the same the same person was coaching each team, I mean, is it a chimpanzee the door knob Vince Lombardi. I mean it doesn't matter. I mean, if the same person is coaching all the teams, then um, you know, how do they come out? I mean I think that's the gauge because um, you know, the because you know the resources very and and and they very to a lesser degree in the NFL, but um, and that is one thing appealing about the NFL is the NFL. You know, you can lock into xs and os, and especially if you can control the fifty three men roster, then you can really do some damage. But because you can garner some accountability in there too. But um, ah, I'll tell you this. Uh, you know, you've got all the guys that have worked for me who are all outstanding coach there's no question outstanding coaches. And if you you know, and if you know, if you more from all together, I guess that'd be the worst. But um, you know, going going to the H. And that's obviously a tricky question. It's certainly fun for you guys like you the H to ask and uh, and even more fun if if I'm not careful how I answer it. But let me just say this, Um, defensively, defensively a guy that I have really respected and really respected his career and watched forever because we used to play each other all the time. UH. And so just thinking about UH, a guy that runs defense a lot like we run offense, that views defense like we view offense. That I have a good, incredible respect for UH and don't know him well, don't know him well, I'd like to know him better. Ah, But just is Rocky long Ah. They run defense, they view defense kind of similar to how we view offense. I think like everyone of every positions a weapon. They're willing to turn them loose on you at any point. Uh. You know, they run that stuff that Joelie Dunne made famous, and Rocky was right there on the ground floor of that and uh and some of that, you know, because there's other people that are like you'd see what the air raids or you'd see it with the West Coast offense, you know, all these guys run around seeing they run the West Coast offense. I run the West Coast offense. Well this is the West Coast offense. What do you think, Well, we'ren't West Coast offense? Well Bill Walsh is rolling over and he's grave and some of this stuff called West Coast offense, you know, and um. And then in the same way with air rad there will be these guys say there are rate but they just don't have the nuts to call it, you know. And along with that stuff Rocky runs, there are a lot of guys that came up under Joe Lee done and and and um, and they don't have the nuts to call it. But to me, the ultimate master that stuff, the best that I've seen uh and Joe Lee's of course out of business right now. But um is Rocky Long. I think Rocky Long and what he does defensively, I think it's just outstanding. And he's at San Diego State right now, has gone eleven and three, eleven and three, ten and three, step back a little bit, seven and six in the past year, so he's had a lot of success at San Diego State. UM, question for you now, you obviously were at Texas Tech. Did you root for Texas Tech to win the Final Four when they were playing against Virginia? Did you want them to win the basketball title? Because I know Chris Beard. I've done Chris Beard for a long time. And then the other thing is, you know, there's just some tremendous people at Texas Tech. Like every time So I wrote a book, Swing Your Sword, made it to number five on the New York Times bestseller list. The first time I went back to Lobbing, there were three thousand people there for the book. Sidney, I've never gone back where there's less than a thousand, and it's just outstand I mean, there are so many great people there. They're just great fans. They just have a great spirit for competition, sports and in memories, and I wanted those people to have the very best experience that they possibly could. Now in that mix, there's like four very dubious, selfish back room guys, you know, kind of oily men in the back room. They're just sneaky as hell. And you know, led by Ken Hans, who was a former chancellor. There in a very sleezy politician that's uh, fortune leaves at office and you know he's doing as much harm as he can, but not as much as he used to be able to do. And um, and they still haven't paid me Texas Tick Texas Tech still owes me for They haven't paid me for two thousand nine. They won nine games, We won nine games and two thousand nine, and they have not paid me for two thousand nine. And they hide behind sovereign immunity, which is only exercised against contracts in Texas. And uh and how for two thousand nine? I don't like, how much money do you think you're owed by Texas tex Well, they owe me two point six million for two thousand nine alone. And I've always said I'd settled for just for two thousand nine, But I was on the front end of a five year contracts. So overall, if they pay out the old contract, which is basically what they owe, it's in the sixteen millions or maybe sixteen eighteen. But um, I've always said I'd settle if they pay me for two thousand nine, the last season that I worked, um, where they enjoyed nine wins and they haven't one nine since and um so uh but no, I mean, and you've got some people that are that are very sleazy. I mean, you know, in Texas, your words supposed to be your bonds, while Ken Hanson's words not his bond. He's a liar and uh, you know he'll shake your hand, tell you one thing, and then lie and then um and then plus we have a signed contract, fully integrated, and um, well I'm still waiting to get paid for two thousand nine, so um uh. And then of course, you know everything that they fired before it turned out to be a totally sham and totally false, and that they lie and they and they've never fully investigated it. And now somebody's um trying to get the records on all of that, and they refused offer those of because you know they're lying some more and it will probably illustrate a whole bunch of sleezy behavior. So we'll see if those records come out, and I of course if they do, because I don't have anything to be ashamed of. And then, um but in the end, I mean, you've got the most successful era in the history of tech athletics in that period where um, you know, we were ranked every year, went to a bowl every year, and that's very difficult to effectively celebrate if uh, if one I'm not invited back, and two I'm not going back since they owe me for two thousand nine and this notion of me settling for just the last season I worked, I think that's extremely generous. But um so, uh yeah, but there's a lot of uh, you know, hands surrounded himself with these hidden agenda guys, um, you know, kind of these hidden agenda guys that wanted to go brag at the country club how much they controlled athletics and and you know, guys like John Scobell and Jerry Turner stuff like that. And then they decided that they were, um going to cheat me out of my contract, and then they did by hiding bind sovereign immunity. And you can look it up because just describing it, nobody that's ever said the Pledge of Allegiance thinks such a thing as possible. No other state has uh has hidden behind sovereign immunity and refused to pay an integrated contract. Sovereign immunity basically says that the government, the government is the is the king, and you can't sue the king. So therefore, if you sign a contract with the government, you have to fulfill your but they don't have to fulfill theirs, and there's no remedy if if they don't pay you. And it's the most ridiculous bass Ackwards thing you've you've ever heard. I mean, it's it's utterly unbelievable. It goes on in Texas all the time. You especially see it happen uh with contractors and construction contracts and um you know, the uh you know, and from what I understand, they have to secure their loans and things with the World Bank because they don't trust them to uh, you know, to fulfill it. And um uh you know, it's unfortunate that the people in Texas deserve better. The citizens of Texas certainly deserve better, and governments are supposed to serve people, not prey on them, and then really sleezy guys like Kent Hands. You can see why it was very appealing to m Um to be in government so they could prey on people. And uh, and so now he's uh, he's slithered off, probably to Austin or something, you know, lurts around like golam on Lord of the Rings, probably looking for something shiny to steal. Is the way that you were covered when you were at Texas Tech make you distrustful of the media in general? No, I thought, Um, you know, I thought, I don't know if you have if you have a specific like you know, if you have a specific one other than the local guys. I mean, the worst reporter now is Dan Walkin. But um, you know it's obviously horrible Big Gulp Dan, because he'll be selling Big Gulp soon when USA Today comes to their senses. And then um, of course Joe Shad is an all time horrible reporter. Um, and everybody pretty much agrees on both counts, you know, reputations that they strived our durn um and then uh, but I was speaking of which Vanderbilt, Tennessee, how are you in, Big Gulp Dan? Doing. You know, I think he blocked me on Twitter. What what? I can't even remember what caused you and Dan walking to get going? What what happened? I can't even remember it was it was it was actually kind of cumulative. Um, it's actually kind of cumulative. Big gulp. Dan thinks that every he thinks that every coach should be fired. And it's just trying to find some little nuance or angle to argue that he thinks every coach should be fired. He thinks every player with any level of success, UM should be cut, fired or put in jail, the one exception being UM, if all of a sudden, uh, they're asking for something, needs some money, get injured or something, then he thinks they should break the bank to give him some ridiculous thing that's uh, you know, not promised or part of the deal or something like that. I mean, just a guy that lives on the extreme, that dies for attention and um, he has lost all credibility on all sides and um, and it's not good for the business. And I think everybody realizes it. But UM, the and I know, I thought the media was pretty decent other than the fact that you know, so you had Craig James and Joe Chad manufacturing this whole thing, which you know didn't hold water very quickly. And then um, you know the pants in the school, I mean just not the school per se, but because he did a lot of them behind their back, Um, you know, proceeded to cheat me out of my contract, hiding go in sovereign immunity because it's never gone to trial. I mean, this has never been heard, this has never been decided, it's never even gone to trial. It's just okay, um or the state we have sovereign immunity. So what if you had a contract, you can't sue us. Uh, that's the way the cookie crumbles and you don't get to go to court. Well, how unjust is that? That's not Yeah, that's not a country. That's not a government for the people by the people. I mean, and that's the repugnant that nearly everything that, in particular a state like Texas stands for. So you couldn't sue them in federal court either for that same reason that that I mean, obviously in state court the sovereign immunity would carry I I haven't researched the case, but you did, you couldn't file it in federal either. Um. It seemed to me we had to select one or the y. I can't remember. I mean I kind of abided by what the attorneys uh said. That's that's a good question, but um, uh, well, I won't put that. That's just the first thing that comes to my mind. I know you're a lawyer too, so and and one of the things that's funny about this is, and I'm sure you have experienced this, people expect that you'll know the answer to every legal question that's ever existed. And really all you learn when you're a lawyer is theoretically how to you have the tools to go find the answer to a question. But I can't tell you the number of times I've been out at a bar and somebody finds out I'm a lawyer, and they come up to me and they give me a really detailed question and expect for me to be like, oh yeah or no, as if as if it's easy. You know, I remember when I graduated from law school, the professor got up and he said, you know, when you've started law school, you could somebody asked you a legal question. You could gaze at them with great solemnity and say I have no earthly idea, and now after you spent you know, for me, it was over a hundred thousand dollars of law school debt that I've now paid off. But you know, you you they say, you know after three years? Uh, you know you can uh, you can gaze at them and say uh. And when they ask you the same question, Well, that depends, and it's kind of a funny joke, but it's also true. You spend all this time to learn out how to learn how complex things are, and so the idea that you have a lot of walking around knowledge that applies for every single situation is oftentimes not very true at all. Well, there's no question about it. I mean they basically lost school is a is four years of how to write and where to dig? You know, yeah, and uh and you know, parading through the Now at least it's on a computer. I mean, we used to have to stand in line for the I forget what it was called a head a name, and um, you used to have to pull actual books off the shelf and go track down everything. Oh yeah, heck yeah you did. And then if you had an assignment and those books were critical to the assignment some of your competition, which strategically ensure that those books weren't on that show. Yeah, I've heard about that too. That's awful. I've heard about that. So then i'd have to then i'd have to go to u c l A Library where they didn't have the same assignment. I was actually almost as close to u c l A as I was uh Pepperdine. Yeah, so so yeah, I had a little place pull up my car, had a secret place in the neighborhood and pull up my car. Then I then i'd go through the hedges. They had this hedge. Get through the hedge, just find my way through the hedges and uh uh u c l A Library where U c l A Law Library to use it too. Oh well, part of it is because, you know, because of my lack of self discipline. You know, if you're at your law library, everybody's gonna talk to you. Are you got your circle and just say anybody's got anxiety, is gonna go talk to somebody else. And U c l A. I didn't know anybody, so I could study more for reductively. I also used to go sometimes I'd go study at the Malibu Public library, go down there, and I'd sit across from a homeless guy, and he was kind of a homeless guy, and I think he had one of those bipolar mood things because something and he's going there. He'd sort of scrub off in the bathroom. In the bathroom there, he'd scrub off and brush his teeth and kind of you know, cal shower himself. And then he'd sit in that library all day and uh, he'd have a kind of an array of of the go boxes, which you know he'd gotten from a variety of places who knows where, pulled out of who knows where, and then sit and read books all day and a lot of times you'd get some history thing, and if he wanted a quick answer, he'd read kind of those uh, you're not really children's books, kind of junior high books, you know, where he could read really fast, saying about Davy Crockett or something, you know, and then um and then sometimes you know, uh, you know, he'd want to talk, be quite engaging, and other times you know, he'd just be a statue it just pretend he was invisible or something. Wouldn't say nothing. But anyway, Um, he was good company through several finals I studied for. Uh, you are at Washington State now, and I'm sure you feel like that after all the torturous process of ending up there, that it it is a good, good place to have to have ended up. Was it more gratifying to have the success at Washington State that you've had the past several years after what you went through a Texas Tech? Yeah, I don't know, you know, because you just worked as hard as you possibly can and then, um, you just work as hard as you can and then um, and then I don't know, it's it's gratifying, it's gratifying, but um, um, it's gratifying. But that that the thing is, it's not gratifying for as long as you think, because you know you're moving on to the next target right away. You're moving on to There's the next recruit, There's the next the the next recruit, the next uh uh team, the next opponent, the next uh the guy you're trying to search for to be a starter for a summer. Other you're you know, you're always onto something else, and so uh yeah, this uh other than a quick kind of twelve hours after a big win with maybe the staff of your family. I mean now you're right back in it. You know, you finished in the top ten. Uh, and you've been coaching for a long time now, so there's almost no I'm just kind of curious on this in general. I mean, so there's almost no uh, sense of satisfaction. I mean, I mean, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what drives you. But well, you know, the thing is is, I mean just the sense of satisfaction comes with practice improvements. You go out there to practice, you see guys get better, like even now, Um, you know, we had okay. So so you go during the season and some young player, he's okay. Then you go to the practices before the poll the young player he hadn't been playing much or doing much. Then you're saying, damn this guys could be pretty good. And that's only a couple of months later, you know. And so then a few months after that, you have spring football and you're seeing if you know, yeah, and then then the guy takes another jump. Now they don't all do that, but you know, that's pretty gratifying, that's exciting, and then um, and you definitely get consumed by it, and there is a sensory overload to it. But you know, the other thing is you is you work and you strive and you you know, you watch the film, you have the practices, uh um, you know, and develop your confidence around what you're doing and the the players you're working with. Um. And I'm not even saying it's rational. I've always said it's irrational. You know. The beginning of the week, I don't know if we can beat Pullman High School on Sunday. Um on on Friday, I'm pretty convinced we can beat an all star team with the Green Bay Packers and the New England Patriots. Okay, but um, and we're actually somewhere in between, I imagine. But the thing is is uh um you know, uh, as you're working, you and your team into that UM here, you're definitely happy if you win, no question, But um you're not necessarily surprised by it, you know. And uh but the thing is is together as a team. The thing that really brings you together and kind of elevates the excitement and kind of makes it a sensory overload is um yum is you know, just as everybody being passionate about doing the same thing at the same time, and you really feel like you're a part of something important because it's important to you know, a room full of people, and it's important to a lot of people, and it's most important to you, not so much on the outside because it may be important to millions of people, and it may be important, um, tens of thousands of fans, um, you know, in the stadium or whatever. But you know, you're that you're seeing every day, striving every day. UM. You know the fact that it's important to them and you're a part of that um is something that uh really makes it feel important, really makes you feel part of something important because you know you'll remember it the rest of your life and you know that they will too. And I think that that kind of elevates it. You know, when people quit playing, that's the thing miss most is the locker room and then the other thing. And this isn't always the case. Some people have more fulfilling NFL careers, but with rare, rare, rare exception, people have more fulfilling college careers. People uh, you know, they're glad they played in the NFL. They liked the money, but had more fulfilling college careers and you know, their best memories are from college it's you know, some of the greatest NFL guys ever. You you'll hear them talk about college all the time. And I've talked about the NFL so much and UM, And I think that that has to do with one the age they are. They go in there from a confused high school kid. UM that you know, just develops into a develops into a college you know, a college kid. You know, after four years, I mean that there's huge change. You know, it's a big dynamic part of somebody's life. So I think I think that elevates it. And I also think that locker room where everybody's living together, doing the same things together all the time and they're gonna be their odds are uh for three to five years, UM, elevates it over where it's got a little bit more of a mercenary quality, you know, where somebody's cut, somebody's at and it's all business type of thing. Before you're done coaching, would you like an opportunity to coach in the NFL, Like if Cliff Kingsbury comes out and he dominates this year and he and Kyler Murray have a lot of success, somebody in the NFL might circle around like they have done with U with Sean uh Shan out at the l A. Rams, and everybody now wants their own version of him, right like everybody wants to do what the Rams are doing now. And everybody might decide they want a version of Kingsbury. Well, you coached him at quarterback. You've been doing this for a long time. Do you think that you will ever get that call? Do you think that you'll ever get that opportunity? Would you want it if it came? Uh? You know, I would definitely listen. I would definitely listen. Um, I see advantage just to bulls. Um, I see advantage just to balls. Uh. One advantage, you know, because college and I'm in Newon college a long time, and colleges is extremely fulfilling in courts in college, you could always go back, but that um uh. And you know, one thing I guess that's somewhat appealing about the NFL would be the fact that the best team and the worst team really aren't that far off. I mean, it's more of a coaching laboratory than it would be in college. Yeah, where you go in college and you can pick whatever conference you want, whoever's whatever team's got the most resources compared to the one that's got the least in that conference. That's like an exponentially bigger margin than exists anywhere in the NFL. And I mean anywhere. I mean, take your pick whoever your conferences And I'm not gonna name teams, but you know who's the best in the SEC? All right, who's the worst? Okay? The difference between them is huge. Who's the best of the pack? Well, who's the worst? Resources was? I mean just the difference in is huge. Okay. In the NFL it's a narrow margin. So so where you're you're not having to play over your head, that's got an appeal. Okay. Then, um, the other uh is where it's just football and you know you're not worried about the other stuff so much. That has an appeal to Okay, But then a lot of places in the NFL, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. You know, there's the owner of the GM and and they head coach. And you need a situation where everybody thinks, acts, you know, behaves as one and then the other thing as a coach. Um, you know, you want to have control of the fifty three man roster, so long you can create accountability on your team and too, so you can play the best players you know. And and I think if you have that, you always have a chance. And then UM, so yeah I would, Yeah, I would. I would look at it, but I've never pursued it. You know, I've never pursued it. I've always figured they knew where I'm at. You know, have you ever had an NFL head coaching interview, not a head coach. I early in my career, receiver coach I had. I think they interviewed me to be receiver coach. Um, this is uh, it's right when I got I've just gotten hired by Oklahoma and we've just been through spring and uh, and yeah I would have been exciting and stuff. But one I would have been leaving Oklahoma in a bad way. And then the other is, um, you know, uh, I wouldn't be calling plays and so you know, calling plays I wanted to. I wanted to call place, you know, so in the NFL at that time, I would not have been calling plays. So um, but anyways, uh I didn't. I haven't. I haven't regretted it. I haven't regretted it. But um, uh, I don't know you know, the right situation and all that. Uh, I'd look at it. Um, I'd look at it. But uh, also I'm really happy with where I'm at. So, you know, you mentioned that there's a big difference between the top of a conference in the bottom of a conference. I don't think it's any you know, great insult to say that Texas Tech is not at the top of the Big twelve historically and Washington State is not at the top of the Pack twelve historically. Do you ever wonder what it would be like to get a job as a head coach at one of those programs wherever it is, let's say that you're in the uh you know that you're in the A C C. I think people would say Clemson and Florida State or at the top. We ever wonder what it would be like to get one of those jobs where you're at the very top of the conference at the start. Yeah, I mean that'd be interesting, like you know, like like okay, so like let's let's take uh, for example, Bill Snyder's career at Kansas State as remarkable. Well, okay, so you've got Kansas State and you can argue whether you know, resource wise, um, you know, they're ahead of various teams, but um, you know they would they would end up in the top several and the Big twelve all the time. And and resource wise, they're definitely towards about I'm not talking about what they achieved for what they did, what they achieved or what they did. I'm talking about there's a big in Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas State in terms of resources. So if Bill Snyder coached all of those teams, and there was there was a there was a there was a funny there was a funny triangle there in the Big twelve for a while. Okay, uh, like ample, Kansas State would always beat Texas, Kansas State would always beat Texas. Well, let me just tell you something that Bill Snyder coached all those teams. Bill Snyder's Texas team would never lose to Kansas State, you know what I mean? Um um uh. And then Texas always beat Nebraska and went out and now that'd be closer. If Bill Snyder coach both Texas and Nebraska, I don't know who to win that game. And then Nebraska always beat Kansas State. So it was always a strange triangle there that But Kansas State always got Texas. Texas always got Nebraska, no matter how, get Nebraska one, and then Nebraska always got Kansas State. But uh, but I'll tell you this, if Bill Snyder coached all those teams in the Big Twelve, uh, Kansas State would drop significantly and some of those teams would elevate some. Yeah, I mean, you could make an argument that Bill Snyder is as good of a college football coach as there's ever been if you look, you were talking about job status versus accomplishment. Kansas State basically doesn't have a football program at at all without Bill Snyder, and even when he left, they disappeared again. I mean, what he's accomplished there is every bit as legendary, is almost what any coach would have accomplished in college football if you just look at it from a perspective of what he's achieved relative to the past historic achievement of the school. Oh, I agree, I agree. And then and you know, and and he he was always very gracious. I could always call him and and and in on. In a lot of people's eyes, we don't have much in common, and maybe we don't, but he is always very gracious as far as I could call him and ask him any organizational question I had or that type of thing, And yeah, he's just brilliant, you know, just a brilliant guy. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s are to listen live. Last couple of questions for you, and I know I appreciate all the time we're talking with the Washington State head football coach Mike leach Um, What is your day like when it's football season? I always like to ask people what their day is like, what their week is like? How many when it's actual football season, how many hours a week will you work to get ready for a game plan and be ready to coach on Saturday? Which day is it? Yeah? You play like you play a bowl game. Let's say you play your ball game on Tuesday. Not screw that backing off on Tuesday. Tuesday immediately becomes Saturday, Monday immediately becomes Friday, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I operate based on uh, Saturday being game day? What so what day you talking about? Yeah? Like for the week though, like leading up to a set Saturday game day, Would you work eighty hours? Would you work a hundred cra crazy hours? Okay? So so I get in late? Are I get in late and leave late? Okay? And we've joked before that our places and in twenty four hours a day. Um, because those defensive guys get in early and I guess they take a CS to the middle of the day or something, and then, um, so they're getting crazy early. And then they and they don't stay as late as we do on offense, but they're in they're crazy early because and um and I know it's real fashionable for football to get in early, but you know, I'm a task granted guy. I wanted to happen in a chunk. I've never bought into those, uh, because I think you know, you you lose some momentum when you load, when you load and unload, you know what I mean. And so I hate that, you know, set and reset type of stuff. Like everybody says, Okay, uh, well, after you work an hour, you need a fifteen minute break. I don't buy that, you know, screw that. And I don't want a fifteen minute break because I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna be here forever. If I'm taking fifteen minute breaks, you know. Um uh, you know, take a fifteen minute break. Uh, take a take a fifteen minute break while you're sitting here watching the next play or whatever, you know, or you know, get a tea or get a water, you know, Um, do whatever you need to do. But and so so on. Okay, So let's say we've just played. We just played on Saturday. Okay, so Sunday, I get there, and it depends if we played at night or hourly we played, but I get there around noone. Okay, then uh, you want what I do or just general hours. Yeah, no, I'm curious in the whole process. Okay, Okay, So now I get in. I watched and I've probably watched it before. I probably watched it the night before. I watched the game that we played, the previous game we played. Okay. Then, uh, then we'll have a meeting with the staff. We have a discussion on what we saw in the game, what was good, what was bad, what we've got to improve, what we've got to change. The staff information. Then also what needs to be said to the team would be addressed. Some of those suggestions I accept some of them, like uh, you know, I don't, but I want to hear it because it's very important to hear it. And I hate I hate guys that try to tell you what you want to hear, because that's useless information. I mean, uh, I mean what I want to hear? What good is that? I mean, that didn't help me evaluate, reset my ideas, think about anything. That's why this political correct bullshit is so dangerous. I mean, nobody has the opportunity to reset and and find their way to the best possible solution. If people are going to run around and regulate what you say and what you think, that, I mean, that is so counterproductive to any any effort to move the needle and get a better idea. So anyway, I hate the guys that are are gonna say and I don't have any like that. You know, and you know, coach, have you ever thought about this? And it's like, well, I'll disagree with that, but I'll analyze it, think about it why and maybe there's some modified version of that that's very good. Or maybe I'm totally wrong and need to switch it, okay, um, And maybe I make the wrong choice and and don't follow it, or make the wrong choice and do follow it. But either way you have to be exposed to and have a chance and approving improving your thoughts or idea is well, you know, political correctness destroys all that, and so it's a bad thing our country is going through and I hate that. And then um, and so anyway, so I want to hear it. Everybody thinks so and then you know, you know, if we agree on everything, that's good as long as they're honest opinions. But um, the ones that are correct, there's something I haven't thought of that are uh, something I haven't thought of or contradictory to what I thought, providing its correct or well thought out, those are the ones that are value Okay, So then we put together a plan altogether and everybody supports the plan. If they don't support it, then you need to either rehabilitate them or get rid of them. But um, so then uh, we have a team meeting, which is relatively short, where we address the game and what needs to be improved on going for okay, then as uh uh, well, after after the coaches meeting, then offensive staff stays, we watched the film together, make our changes. Then at four um team meeting for about fifteen twenty minutes. Then we have a staff meeting. All right, not a share. Let's start this over because I got you so confused, because I'm confused myself. Okay, get in at noon. H I either watched the film or have watched the film. May watch it with the offensive staff. Okay. We make our corrections, and we get together uh ah somewhere around to the offensive or the entire staff. Everybody says their piece. Okay, and then at four I meet the team. After that we have position meetings where you go through it with your position. Sometimes you might meet the whole offense or the whole defense, or the whole team if there's something agreedious that you really need to sort out, okay, but generally position. Then we eat dinner. Then early in the season we practice for an hour helmets and shorts and really it's uh to run through corrections for the previous game. Um and then uh uh and then we introduced uh some of the looks for the next game. Okay. Then off the field at uh oh, about eight thirty or nine. I'm trying to think when we start. I think we started eight, so we're off at nine, okay, So then uh, then I immediately start watching the next opponent in the cut ups, which I will not finish. I'll get as far along as I possibly can, and then um uh and I'll get out of there, usually around one am or two, okay. And then the next morning, um, somewhere around ten I started getting phone calls and media stuff, so I answer the media, do the media stuff. Then I have a press conference around uh one, So I walk in, do the press conference uh, and then go up in there and continue to slam through film all the different cutups of our opponent. Uh, and start writing a game plan and start making notes. Okay, that'll take me, and tell about ten pm. It can take longer, it can take shorter, but it's more likely to take longer than shorter. Ten pm. When I finish up my end, we bring the whole staff in staff or the offensive staff. Offensive staff comes in. We put all the plays on the board. The hard part isn't putting plays on the board. The hard part is figuring out what plays to cut off, what plays to focus on, what plays to run. So it's a series figuring out what to cut Okay, So we do that and then um somewhere around one in four am, the game plan is complete, and it's a game plan for the week, because I'm not a guy that puts a sliver in. As the week goes on, a little here, a little there, and it's done. Okay. Sometimes I might walk home, sometimes I go if I walk home. Occasionally there will be some people that think it's the craziest stuff they've ever seen. Coach Leach is that you, well, I can give you a ride. Well, you know what's snowing out, you know. I I to think, and then I said, well, now I need exercise, you know, and so I got, uh continue the journey continues, and so then um uh and then on UM Tuesday, we have a meeting at eleven AM. So that's the whole staff. And I get in there about eleven and we've got the whole staff in there. Uh talk about the upcoming game, talk about what we need to say to the team, uh, you know, team for the week. Um, and then UH make some notes, go through the practice schedule, which didn't takes long because we're not a team that changed our practice schedule all the time. I mean, we can go down the hall talk to somebody, but we're probably doing our our Tuesday probably looks like Tuesday ten years ago, yet with a slight exception, okay. And then so then we uh, then the players come in uh uh Well, then we have the meeting, which is short, then position meeting, uh which I'm cranking away on that, and and with the quarterbacks going through the game play, covering the game plan uh as specifically as we can through the cutups, illustrating what we're thinking with the plays we selected, and then we hit the practice field. Tuesday is the longest practice of the week helmets and pads. It goes for an hour and fifty minutes, but it's the longest one of the week, and so we like short practice is fast. If you were to characterize our team, our meetings are probably longer than average, in our practices are shorter than average. And then um uh because I've got to save their bodies because you know, I'm not like some of the teams in our conference. I'm not like two and three deep. We're like one and a half deep, Okay, and uh so we've got to keep people fresh. And then um and so which means limited reps, which means more mental reps of so. Then um and then on Wednesday, oh wait, wait wait, I'm sorry. So after practice, straight to dinner, after dinner, straight in there as a coaching staff, we watch all the film from practice, every everything, you know, old line, the whole thing. And then in between their drills, guys will be on the phone calling recruits. They get a recruit on the phone where they want other people to talk to them or me freeze the film talk to recruits. So it goes and so kind of multitasking recruiting and watching films. Okay. Then we're out probably around nine pm okay, and then um, and then I walk home there okay, so then uh uh and then Wednesday, get in and around probably noon, um, probably noon. And you this is this is amazingly detail. But you'll spend I mean, what do you think it is? A hundred hours getting ready for a game during a week? O more than that? More than I mean? How many hours will you sleep at night while you're getting ready during football season getting ready for a game? Well, Sunday and Monday, not very many, Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday? More? Uh uh good? Good sleep Saturday if we have a night game, um, and then uh, well, in Thursday we have another staff meeting and that's at one, so then the staff may get in there. One academics is there. We talked to academics about where our players are at. We talked about the itinerary. We talked about oh, Wednesday after practice. Then that practice is an hour forty minutes. Then we go to dinner and then we come we watched the film. Then we're out of there about eight thirty because it's a shorter practice. And then Thursday, get there around noon and then we have a meeting at one academics and nineteerary for the game. And then um and that this practice is helmets and shorts and it's a relatively short practice and where we're polishing for the game, so fast everything fast, crowd noise, that type of thing. And then um the first part special team so and then and then um at the end, I keep the young guys, we've practiced them a little longer, and we pad them up. And then I go do my radio show, which starts at I think it's a it's a six or seven, let's see. I get out there, but I think it starts sex okay, So then I do my radio show and then uh, after the radio show, I'm done and then UM and then Friday, depending if we're on the road or for at home. If we're on the road, it depends when we uh catch the plane, but there will be a series of meetings before we catch the plane. Then you catch the plane, then you go to the place and we'll have a walk through there at the location, and then dinner meeting. Okay, so if it's at home, first meetings at two, so I get there too, special teams meeting, some drills down there on the field, which the whole thing takes about twenty minutes. Drills and walk throughs on the field. Uh in in in shorts, just T shirt and shorts, and then uh and then go eat uh like uh eat a good meal. It's a really good meal. And then uh we go to the hotel, We go to the movie. We come back from the movie, we have a team meeting, and then Thursday we watched some film of our preparation for our opponent. Uh, then have a snack and then go to bed. And then Saturday. It did varies based on when we play, but long story short, if it's a long day, we'll have meetings in between. If it's a short day, will same meetings, but we'll hurry him up and in and out the same routine though that's incredibly detailed. Last question for you if there's a lot of college kids. There's a lot of people who are young that listen to this podcast regardless of what they want to do. But let's say they want to get into coaching, what would you tell them the biggest thing? Well, first of all, make sure you're passionate about it. Uh, study everything you can get, which is a lot easier now than when I got in, because when I got in, it was right there the tail end of the sixteen millimeter. Now, if you think about the sixteen millimeter, um, only a few people had copies, you know. I mean, uh, they were probably I don't know, six copies on the staff, and then the opponent that they're going to play that week at several copies. But your players didn't. You know. Um, this isn't a deal where um you know, Um, it's not on YouTube. You can't just go watch every No, I mean now you can. You can get game after game play after playing the instructional stuff. Now, some of the instructional stuff, I'll see some of the instructional stuff on what we're trying to do and the guy's crazy and then um, and then I'll see some other ones and um, you know, sometimes I wonder if we're better off with that guy telling our guys that me but and then and then um, but the yeah you have that, and then you have uhum. So there's all kinds of stuff to study, but nothing is more important and persistent. I mean, you know, you just have to refuse to leave. And I'm not a big Woody Allen movie guy, but he says, what does he say, ninety percent or or eighty percent of life is showing up. Make sure you're getting all that you know, and then um, uh you know. But then also it's like you know, John Madden, make sure you're passionate. Budje Mad said, uh. He says, you know, here he quoted the quote if you do something you love, you never have to work a day in your life. And he says, I think about it. He says, if you think about it, I've never had a job. And then he says uh. And then he says uh. And then he talks about you know, you see the same people going up as you do going down. He says, he says, the road to success runs right through the gutter and with her exception, that's true. So so brace yourself for that outstanding stuff. As always, Mike Leach. You can follow him on Twitter, uh and I'll tweet out the link for this when it comes out. Make sure you thank him for coming on hanging out with us. Have a good time down in Key West. I know how busy you are now you like to have your time off. I appreciate you giving us the time you did. My man, all right, Well, it's always an honor to be on and uh and shoot anything anything I can ever do. Let me know, and anybody that wants to know more about me or what we do. I've got a couple of books out there and uh, the one on my path into coaching is Swing Your Sword so and it's on Amazon. Yeah for sure. And I need to get out to Pullman and see a game sometime. I'm gonna make it happen. Oh definitely. Uh, that's Mike Leach. I'm Clay Travis. This has been uh Wins and Losses. Subscribe to the podcast, go check out all the different episodes, and thanks again for his time. Thanks for hanging with us on Wins and Losses.