You're listening to Fox Sports for you, Welcome in Wins and Losses. I'm your host, Clay Travis. We are joined now by Miranda Divine of The New York Post. You may have heard her interviewed on Clay and Buck some over the past few years. You certainly have probably seen her on Fox News. I believe they should rescind all of the Russia Collusion Politzer Prizes and give them to her. Um And during the course of this conversation, I bet you're going to end up agreeing with me. So thank you to Miranda for joining us. And Miranda, before we dive into your book, Laptop from Hell, the whole New York Post story, all of that, what's your background? How did you come to be writing for the New York Post? Uh? Where did you grow up? What is your journalism background? Kind of let people know more about you. Honestly, I would like to know too. I'm not that expert on on your past history here. Well, Clay, thanks for having me and um I suppose it will be confusing to tell you that I was born in Jamaica, Queens, even though the accent is obviously not from there, and my parents were journalists here, and then we moved to Tokyo, where I spent six years at an American school and they had a very strong American accent. And then we moved to Australia, which is my parents or my mother's homeland, and I got an Australian accent overnight pretty much. And um, then I did a mass degree as a as a detour, and always wanted to be a journalist, and my parents had said no, no, don't do it, but I ended up they were back in America. My father was um working to the Reader's Digest, he was an editor there, and UM, I ended up coming back here to go to Northwestern University. I did a journalism degree or master's um to one year, and then I bounced around a bit and ended up at the Boston Herald and where I spent a very pleasant couple of years three years, and then I went back to Australia, got married, spent twenty years there, pretty much raised our sons um and then my editor at the time and the newspaper was at in Sydney, was transferred to New York to become editor of the New York Post, Carl Allen, and he was the legendary editor in Australia and then here um, and he at the end of his tenure, he said to me, why don't you come over and just come over for eighteen months covered the election and that was the twenty twenty election. So I came here in and basically the post minister. So we've been here ever since. Okay, So, first of all, Australia, and this is a stupid American question. We're gonna be married and unless my wife leaves me in the next year, which is always possible. Um, we're gonna hit twenty years. We've got three boys. Everything else. Before we even dive into the New York Post story, if I were going to Australia for two weeks and I was taking my family fourteen twelve, eight, three boys, where would you say you should fly into Where would you say you absolutely have to see? Like if I had two weeks to go to Australia because I'm thinking about taking my wife on our twentieth wedding anniversary and I've always wanted to go, I've never been, what would you say as an Australian to me an American who's never been before, you absolutely have to see this well, I'm biased because the city that I've spent the most time in his Sydney, and it's absolutely beautiful. Um. But with your kids, I would definitely take them up to Queensland, to the Gold Coast. There are a lot of you know, sort of Disney World Star style placed absolutely stunning beaches. Um. And then you can go further north and into some pretty wild sort of crocodile country and meet some aboriginals and um, and you know, go into sort of out back Australia, which is pretty cool. I mean, if you could get onto a station and out back station, um, you know, a huge like a huge cattle ranch sort of thing, but we're probably cheap, um, that would be an amazing experience. But I would also say, if you've got two weeks, you should, um explore the region. So go to New Zealand go to a place called Queenstown, which is just absolutely spectacularly beautiful. Um. So yeah's my advice. All right, that's on my that's on my list. I literally jotted all of that down as you were talking. I bet there's a lot of other Americans who similarly would love to take a trip to Australia and also maybe New Zealand, although it's been so crazy during COVID in both places that kind of turned me off a little bit. UM. But I want to now dive into So you come to the United States in UH to work at the New York Post. We know, and this is kind of putting the time frame out there, and it certainly jump in and correct me if at any point I'm wrong. In December of the Joe Biden son, Hunter Biden's laptop is turned over to the FBI. Right the John Paul, the laptop repairman, says that Hunter Biden, he thinks he's not gonna have great vision, shows up with this laptop, turns it into him to get repaired. UH. And while it is there it is UH. He comes and becomes aware of what's on this laptop, contacts the FBI after Hunter Biden doesn't show up, doesn't pay for it, doesn't come back to reclaim it, and shares it with the FBI. In December, you become aware that this laptop exists, allegedly exists, let's say at the time. When when do you first become aware, Hey, this thing is out there. Not until the beginning of October when I got a series of text messages from Rudy Giuliani's lawyer Bob Costello, and uh Rudy Giuliani had been UM sent them the sort of hard drive, the copy of the laptop UM in August. So um this this is now nine months after John Paul mac Isaac has handed over the device the laptop to the FBI, but very cleverly kept a copy of it. UM and he only contacted the FBI eight months after U Hunter Biden abandoned the laptop at his store and it became his his legal property. And so I get this text message late at night. I've been talking to Rudy as soon as I came to New York. I cultivated Ruddy Juliani because well because I knew of his proximity to Donald Trump and that he knows everybody in New York. But also I had lived here back in the the you know, the bat old eighties with my parents, when New York was just a hellhole, and so I had a huge amount of respect for what he had done to clean up the city. So to me, he was an icon of New York. And I was going to work for the New York Post. I wanted to become his friends. So I was sort of doing that, and he now was trusting me and given the interviews and so on, and so, um, I think I was top of mind when they had had some difficulty. That's a long story, but you know, they had contacted a send of mine at the New York Post earlier and she'd um she didn't have a copy of the hard drive, but she had been working on it. But the whole project to hit a sort of legal stumbling point, and so I think Rudy Giuliani and Bob Costello wanted it to go to the Post, but um, they were just they come to the end of their tether because it was now so close to the election, was a month before the elections, so they were going to hand it over to the Daily Mail or some other organization. And at the last minute, Rudy Giuliani said to Bob just try him around it. So he tried me late one night, and I loved it, and and you know, spent some time the next day talking to both of them about it and resolved that this was kind of above my pay grade. So I uh sent some of the information and talked to my editor in chief Kyle Allen, the Australian editor that I had that I had this very good, long standing relationship with, so it was a mutual trust situation and he immediately saw what a you know what, what potential there was in this story. So he just put his all the best journalists in the newsroom onto um tracking it down. We sent someone down to Delaware to interview jump On mac Isaac and it was all systems go, and within five or six days, UM we had the first story up and running. Okay, so you have been doing journalism for a while. Every journalist has to have in some way a bullshit detector, right, for lack of a better way of describing it, because you've probably over the years been pitched all sorts of fantastical. This is the once in a lifetime story. This is incredibly compelling, and probably over time you do some research and you're like, okay, this isn't as it was initially conveyed to me. When did you start to look at the documents yourself and say, holy crap, this is a monster story. The data is just voluminous of Hunter Biden, this being officially his laptop, the videos, the pictures, everything else. Because in the back of your mind. You had to know that the Biden team was never going to be like, yeah, you know what, you caught us red handed? Kind of take me through that process in your mind of hey, this thing exists, but could it really be real? And working your way towards your own determination of the documents. Yeah, well, you're absolutely right, Clay that you know, after three decades or more in journalism, I've wasted so much time when I was younger in um you know, being a little too or not skeptical enough. You know, people come to you with their stories and voluminous documents, and I've wasted so much time until I find out at the end that you know, it's just not worth a story. Um So, I now, you know, the last ten years or so, I just on the side of, um, just ultra skepticism. I just anyone comes to me with the story. I just admitted it was young. Yeah, sure, I'm not gonna waste my time on this. I'll have a quick glance at it. Um So, you know, of the stuff that comes to me, I will just dismiss this was different because, um first of all, Rudy Giuliani in the sort of a year and a half a couple of years I've come to know him. He'd never steered me wrong. Bob Costello is an incredibly legitimate person, you know, former assistant head of UM Criminal Investigations at the Southern District of New York, very eminent lawyer, brain like a steel trap. UM. So the two of them were very legitimate. The material they were showing me, even before I had the laptop, UM just checked out, you know, just quick Google sort searches of dates and times and photographs and so on, just on a very cursory level checked out. UM. And then you know, John Paul mac Isaac was a legitimate guy. He he um, you know, and as I've come to know him, I mean, he's a very genuine person, a real patriot. He's a Trump supporter, but that doesn't outlaw someone from having an opinion, UM, and and having legitimate material. And he was very concerned. The reason he contacted Rudy Giuliani in the end, and after originally contacting the FBI, was because he saw the president, President Trump, who he voted for, getting raked over the coals over the Ukraine impeachment. And he knew that in the laptop there was exculpatory evidence about Ukraine, about the rhythma UM, you know, chapter and birth. He he did a really good forensic deep dive on that, and that was very impressive. I mean I had his material, his email that he turned to Bob Costello initially in August, which really, I mean even today stands the test of time. He pulled out of that laptop three of the most crucial documents UM and narratives to do with Ukraine that are as danning today or you've probably more than they were then. So all of this again, you know, we then UM uh you know, other reporters UM, Emma Joe Morris, a terrific journalist fan of mine. UM, she did some some excellent kind of a due diligence UM, and other journalists that we had did as well. UM. And so we were very confident with those first UM, that first week of stories that the emails UM that we were referring to were legitimate. UM. And then you know, I get a chance to actually do it, a longer, deeper dive in it, and I end up talking to Oh, sorry, from the very beginning, I also had UM. I forgot to other UM tiny Bob Lynsky's UM material, all his that he had handed over to the FBI. I came into UM possession of that early on, so I was able to cross match the emails that came from UH. You know that really that Tony bob Lynsky and Hunter Biden had in common. And on top of that, Tony bob Lynsky had WhatsApp messages, UM and other documents that sort of butterst and augmented what was on the laptop. And then you know, obviously talking to Tony bob Lynsky and other people who were recipients of those emails, it just was just incontrovertible. This was a legitimate UM laptop. This was Hunter Biden's laptop. On top of that, you know, the night before we published Octo, the night before we had contacted that earlier that day UM Hunter Biden by his lawyer George Musir, and UM that evening, UM John Paul maciaac gets the phone call from George Musir. We know it was George Musir because John Paul mc guys like in his computer shop, had the presence of mind to say, look, I don't know if you are who you say you are. Can you please send me an email and your work email, so then I know you're actually had to bind lawyer to just verify who you are. George Musir did that. And what George Muz asked jump On mac Isaac for was he said, I understand that you have a computer belonging to my client, UM, and we like to have it back. So you know, they were just it wasn't like one bombshell. It was just a thousand points of light. With any of these UM, it's material. We have vast trobes of documents. UM. There's always, you know, countless ways that you verify it, and I've just told you a few of them. And now you know, I wrote a book on it, and I've spent now over two years um in depth looking at it. And there's not one l element of this, this this laptop that I have published or investigated that has not come out to be completely legitimate. And of course the fact that Joe Biden and Hunter Biden never never denied that this was Hunter's laptop, and Hunter said, I could be in my laptop. You know, I might have lost it, so I might have stolen it. They've never denied it. They've never denied outrite any of the information on it. And in fact, Joe Biden halfway through I had the first story that we wrote from the laptop was on that October fourteen story was an email that was Hunter Biden's Ukrainian paymaster who was paying him a million dollars a year, thanked him and his email for introducing him to his father in Washington did and that was when Joe Biden was Vice president. And I managed to find that sorry game, and so I managed to find later on as I went further and further into the laptop. But this wasn't just any old meeting. This was a dinner that Hunter Biden had organized in April for his father, then the Vice president, to meet his clients, prospective benefactors from the Ukraine but also from Russia and Kazakhstan. And he organized this dinner at a Georgetown restaurant called Cafe Milano. And you know, so many emails and he says, I'll ostensibly this is supposed to be about, you know what, the World Food program that he's involved with. That don't you know my dad's coming. Don't show anyone um And you know they denied that this meeting ever happened. And then halfway through I published the story about the Cafe Milano, and the Washington Post decides that they're going to prospect check me Glenn Kistler, and lo and behold, Glenn Kissler finds out that actually the White House admits that Joe did go to the dinner, but that he you know, didn't go for any nesarious purpose and only stayed a short time, which is not true. He stayed with the entire you know, I'm told by people who were there, stayed for the entire you know, just didn't drink. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. Okay, I love all of this. I want to dive into the timeline. If we couldn't, We're talking to Miranda Divine. I'm Clay Travis. This is Wins and Losses, a deep dive into the New York Post story on Hunter Biden, Joe Biden and how it came to pass and the reaction to it. And my idea, by the way, for everybody out there listening, is so many of these details You may have come on to this story a year in, you might have come in two years. A lot of people out there are still trying to catch up. And I told you before we started recording, Miranda, it's like a television series that you might suddenly have watched an episode of in year three and you're like, oh, this is interesting, but you don't really know the background upon which it's based. So my idea is to kind of ground this inner reality, to get the timeline everybody understand it. So you published the first story is in October four, Yeah, okay, all hell breaks loose. I want to go into all hell breaking loose as you published, but I also want to contextualize a couple of things that we now know that are very important. The FBI was at the time, uh surveiling Rudy Giuliani. So not only did the FBI have the Hunter Biden laptop since December of when it was handed over to them by John Paul Maciaac, but also they were surveilling Rudy Giuliani, so in theory, they were aware of everyone in the media that he was talking to. And as point of fact, and I'm sure you've seen this as the Twitter documents have come out. The FBI actually conducted a briefing basically the night before this story was coming out, while saying there may be some Russian disinformation coming out to seed in the Twitter in the Facebook sphere. We've seen Mark Zuckerberg come out and talk about these briefings. We've seen the actual documents from inside Twitter. Did you have any clue that the FBI had at the time Rudy Giuliani under surveillance and was in theory aware of the communication that you were engaging with Rudy Giuliani. Presumably they would have heard you and or seen your interaction with him in some way with him under surveillance. Did you know about any of that at the time. I had no idea, And now that did Rudy. Rudy Giuliani. This was a COVID surveillance warrant um and the FBI was basically spying on his cloud, so they had access to all his emails and messages at that time for about two years. I mean they started when he became President Trump's um private lawyer. Whether or not they were really using Rudy Giuliani and now and sorry, sorry to cut you off, Miranda would they have been phone tapping him as well to hear conversations or to your knowledge? Was this just like, hey, they're getting every text message for in theory and email that he would have been sending. Do you know I believe it was just a cloud. Um. I think it's quite easy for the FBI now to just send messages to uh, you know, the Apple or whoever to get access to people's because yeah, okay, that's interesting. Does that make you feel as a journalist, as someone who was reporting on a presidential election? I just want to focus on that for a moment, like that feels insanely dirty to me, because they have sense we should mention this too. Found out that Rudy Giuliani violated no law, and they have said, hey, we're not bringing any charges. So they got a wire tap potentially. I think it's fair to say under unsavory UH conditions, investigated him, determined that he was doing nothing wrong, and in theory, I'm presuming you would have been texting with Rudy Giuliani and emailing, right, so they were able to then keep trapped tabs on you and any other journalists that he was talking to. Does that make you feel dirty that the United States government was able to be basically snooping into all of your communications, especially when you're a journalist trying to get a truthful story out. Oh for sure. But I mean, I guess you know, most of the sources that I speak to, um, you know, for a long time now we just assume that someone's listening in its unparanoid, but we use encrypto app um and talking so um. You know, I think Brilly Juniorani was always very careful about what he said. He's just not someone who really um writes a lot on text and neither way. I guess it makes you want to just meet face to face almost right, so that in theory you can you can talk open. How crazy is that that you have to be concerned about the FBI as a journalist, that you have to be concerned about the FBI snooping on you such that you want to meet in person as opposed to even engaging in a phone conversation. Well, it's crazy, but we've seen that the FBI have been raiding journalists rating lawyers um that you know, attorney client privilege means nothing, um, journalistic sources meant nothing. They rated Project veritas and took all their their phones with all their confidential sources. Uh, there's just doesn't seem to be any restrictions there are, there are no tabooze anymore. Um. So look, what we know is that Rudy Giuliani was under I call it false pretenses. He was under surveillance. He his house was raided, his home and his office were raided. I think it was all his devices were seized. And then quietly two years later, more than two years later, two and a half years later, they returned all his devices and they just, um, you know, said that there were no no charges. This he was being looked at by the FBI over Foreign Agent Registration Act violations or alleged violations, which they found there weren't any violations. But ironically that's the exact same violations that Hunter bidens being looked at by their Delaware U. S. Attorney. But anyway, so Rudy Giuliani, we know he's under surveillance during the time that I was speaking to him, but more importantly, in August of he was under surveillanced by the FBI. When John Paul maciasac sent that initial very voluminous and detailed email to him with screenshots from the laptop talking about Ukraine and his concerns about national security. So the FBI had that say, well, I don't know if they had it. I mean, maybe they're lazy and they had the surveillance warrant and didn't see it. So I can't I can't definitively say that the FBI saw that email, but they certainly had access to it because they were spying on Rudy. They would have also had access to my messages with Rudy. One in particular. Most of them were pretty anodyne, but one of them in particular would have tipped them off that The New York Post was going to publish. So um and and you know, the FBI had had the laptop since December. They had interviewed John Pool mac Isaac twice. They knew he was a legitimate guy. Um. They they pretty only had done some research on him. They knew that what was on the laptop was genuine, and they had buried it. We now know from FBI whistleblowers who came forward to Chuck Grasley and Ron Johnson that they that there were there were people within the FBI, within the Washington Field office, who buried anything to do with the Hunter Biden laptop or anything to do any any information that was deroctory about Joe Biden for Inston's including Hunter Biden's former business partner Tony Bobolynsky, who I mentioned before, who who I had all his material. He had come forward to the FBI a week or so before the election voluntarily handed over the contents of his phone which I had, and also um he had a five and a half hour interview with them and told them about his concerns about the influenced peddling um operation that Joe Biden and his son and his brother Jim Biden had been carrying on to do with China, because Tony bob Lynsky was involved in the China deals. And so the FBI, also we know from whistleblowers, buried that, Okay, and and they start to cut you off. I'm gonna get into that in a second, but just to me, the essence of the question here, Miranda, and you've laid it out, but I just kind of want to sum it up is the FBI had had this laptop since December. They knew that it was real based on talking to John Paul mciaac just based on the voluminous degree of incriminating behavior and just also specific behavior. This couldn't have the pictures, the video like it couldn't have been made up, all right? I mean and and again, Uh, they knew that it was real from December. They are they then have trumped up charges basically to be able to surveill Rudy Giuliani. As a result, they know that your New York Post story is coming out. They are telling all of the big tech companies, Hey, Russian disinformation is coming out. So I'm curious how you would analyze this someone at the FBI. It's possible, right that these lower level FBI people who are giving these uh sermons to the big tech companies about Russian disinformation, they may not have known there there there's a possibility there's different investigations going on and they didn't know about the laptop or the specifics of it. Let's give them a little bit of benefit of the doubt here. But someone at the FBI, maybe it's Christopher Ray, someone certainly at the very apex of the FBI knew this laptop was real and allowed a false information campaign to be waged against your New York Post story. To me, that's the essence of this question. Who ordered that code read? Who knew the laptop was real and then used every asset they could, including the FBI itself, to protect Joe Biden Hunter Biden from this truth to coming out. Is that kind of to me? That's the essence of this story right now, as all of this information has come out, somebody at the FBI knew this was real and prevented the truth from coming out. Who was that? That's the crux of this story to me, that's the sixty four dollar question. And like Watergate, the cover up by the FBI inclusion with the social media companies and probably the CIA or former CIA operatives, uh they they were involved in bearing this story. The cover up is worse than even the corruption that we've uncovered from the Biden family and the FBI. UM basically had warned Twitter and Facebook during the weekly meetings before the election to expect hack and leak operations by Russia, and Twitter was warned that they would probably involve Hunter Biden and probably happen will likely happened in October. Facebook was told UM warned, we know from Mark Zuckerberg talking to Joe rogan Um was warned also to be on high Lerk for a dump pro Russian propaganda in October before. And that's why I think this is so important, Miranda, because I understand why people are angry at Twitter and Facebook. But if you were a mid level employee at Twitter and Facebook and your FBI came to you and said, hey, we know based on our investigation that Russian dis info is coming based on allegations surrounding Hunter Biden and Joe Biden in their relationship, there's going to be doctor documents and everything else. When your story dropped, they would have seen this and said, oh my goodness, this is exactly what we've been warned about, which is why the nefarious actions of the f e I are so galling, because they took advantage of I really think they played Facebook and Twitter for fools. But also, if I'm putting myself in this position, Miranda, if I had been twenty eight or thirty two and I'm a mid level employee at Twitter and the FBI is sharing this information with me, and they've already seeded this idea of your democracies in peril because of Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani and everybody else. Like, you can see why they reacted the way that they did right now. I mean, it's easy to make them villains, but I think the FBI is a supreme arch villain here, and really Twitter and Facebook were just stooges getting played. Yeah, I think you can say that, particularly when Twitter had as its deputy general counsel a guy called James Baker, who had seen the General counsel, which is top lawyer at the FBI during all the Russia collusion hoax stuff. You know, he was front and sent. He he was the guy who drafted the memo for James Comey about Hillary Clinton. He was the one who brought in the Alpha Bank nonsense and all the other sort of nonsense stuff that turned out to be false, the Steel glossier, and someone about about Donald Trump being a Russian asset. Um. That was James Baker. He's a you know, a dirty player, and he somehow he gets basically has to resign from the FBI and low and behold about a year before the election or lest he shows up at Twitter as their number two lawyer. And he was, we know now from the Twitter files, instrumental in getting Twitter to censor The New York Post after we published our first story on the Hunter Biden laptop and lock the New York Post. I'm sorry, I want to go to next So October the story breaks. I'm sure you were expecting it to be a bombshell, but all hell broke loose, even in a way that I don't think you would have anticipated. What was that experience like to have that story happened, and then the results and maybe tell people who weren't necessarily following this minute by minute what happened to The New York Post when the story comes out to you? To everyone involved in this story, well, we knew it was a huge story. We knew that it was incredibly damaging to one of the two candidates for president. It was three weeks before the election um and so you know, it took a lot of dusts for I have to say, my top editor to decide to go with it, and so we were bracing. We had decided rather than or the editors have decided, rather than publishing the night before as we normally do, like ten o'clock at night, we would hold back and publish in the paper but online only at five o'clock in the morning, and immediately journalists on Twitter, um, you know, people like Maggie Happerman from the New York Times and people from NBC and so on, started talking about it and sharing the story because it was huge on anyone's standards. This journalistically, this was a massive scoop. Suddenly you had um, uh, the actually a guy from Facebook who was a former Democratic operative. He pops up and he says on Twitter and he says, we are um, I can't remember his exact words, but throttling or stopping the spread of this story, pending fact checks, not going to make any comment, not going to link on this story. And then shortly after that, Twitter did the same thing, and effectively, I mean they've got all sorts of words they used, like producing the the spread or something. I don't know what their jargon is, but effectively they just censored. They just killed the story. Um there and then and you know, I don't know if people understand, but with new papers now, so much of um what we do is online and it cost us a lot of money. The fact that our our you know, our story was locked down. Our account was locked for over two weeks until a couple of days before the election Um, it really for the New York Post, which is the country's oldest newspaper, the third largest bicirculation. It was just an incredible audacity by these social media giants to do this. And we now see from the Twitter files the internal communications inside Twitter and some of what Mark Zuckerberg told us went on in Facebook. They didn't take this lightly. They knew that this was huge, but they were massaged into it. The story had already been prebunked by the FBI. If that grooming of Twitter and Facebook hadn't been happening in the weeks before our story was published, they probably wouldn't have been bold enough to censor The New York Post. But because they felt that they were operating on FBI instructions, basically to save national security against Russian interference with the election. Um, they were willing servants of the intelligence community. And there is something really dirty about the fact that here was the FBI intervening for the second election in a row. Uh and and with just completely dishonestly, they knew that our story was real. Um, you can't tell me that the people who ordered the censorship of The New York Post from the FBI did not also know that what we were going to write was real, no doubt, And I think that's what's so important. A lot of people focus on Twitter and Facebook. Someone at the FBI, maybe a group of people at the FBI at the top, again, just to reiterate, they knew that your story was coming. They had known that your story was coming for some time because they had Rudy Giuliani under surveillance and they were aware of much of his communications and the fact that he was trying to shop this evidence from the laptop, which they had been in possession of the FBI themselves since December of So all Rudy Giuliani was shopping was another version of the information that they already had, which, by the way, if John Paul Mike Isaac hadn't made a copy of what was on the Hunter Biden laptop, no one would have ever believed him about this, right, And the FBI would have probably destroyed the laptop and never admit that there was anything on there that was in any way incriminating. Right. So someone ordered a fix in a big way. I think this makes and I'm curious what you think, Miranda, And obviously you're involved in writing this story. And you've done an incredible job. But I've been saying this makes Watergate seemed like jaywalking, right, like when you actually consider the complicity involved from the f b I and where exactly and how many different people were involved in this conspiracy of silence to protect Joe Biden and potentially rigged election. I mean it is. It is a story the likes of which most of the people listening to us right now have never experienced in our lifetimes. Yes, and it has the added element of the threat national security that Joe Biden's and his family's influenced peddling operation had during the eight years that he was Vice president and his son and brother were running around the world partnering with Chinese Belton road Front organizations allied with the Chinese military and military intelligence. And also were you know, a hunter was getting paid, as I said, three thousand dollars a month from this corrupt energy company in Ukraine, UM sitting on their board. And you know the only reason that he was getting money from any of these people was it was a bribe paid to the family of the second most powerful man in the world, Joe Biden. And Joe Biden had been appointed by Barack Obama to be his point man in China and his point man in Ukraine, and both of those countries were extremely lucrative to the tune of tens of millions of dollars to his family. And you know, Joe Biden was involved in that. And that's what the value of the laptop is, that it shows you how much Joe Biden was involved. He met with Hunter Biden's overseas business partners. He met them in Beijing, he met them in Washington, d C. He invited them to his home at the Vice Presidential Residents at the Naval Observatory. Um. He met them, as I said, Cafe Milano. He met them in his White House office. UM. So he was intimately involved. He was described as the big guy and one of their emails, who was going to get a cut a ten percent cut of one of these Chinese deals? Um. Tony Bob o Lynsky, hunter Biden's former business partner, swears blind that the big guy is Joe Biden. And that's backed up by other material on the laptop. There's so much, uh, you know, invoices and bank statements that show you the money flow, where it's coming from. The meetings, Joe Biden's involvement. UM. And then you have to add to that the Treasury Department documents, these so called suspicious activity reports that banks are required to file when money that comes through into their bank accounts of American citizens comes from a dodgy sources, suspects, sources overseas um. And there were you know, dozens of those suspicious activity reports filed about the Bidens. And that was unveiled by Chuck Chuck Grasley and Ron Johnson when they did their incredibly good investigation, which came out in September. Before I even knew about the laptop. I read their report, their first report, and it was chapter and verse. It was like the prelude to the laptop. If you read that, then when you saw the laptop, it became clear. This was the flesh on the bones that Chuck Grasley and Ron Johnson had already put together about the Hunter Biden corruption and Ukraine and UM. Just as a little side note, the FBI also intervened to try and derail and discredit um that that Chuck Grasley and Ron Johnson's investigation. In fact, when I started writing about it, I was warned off and said oh, no, that's Russian disinformation. I was like, why it wasn't what didn't seem to me to be so? And um, And what Ron Johnson told me was that he was amble by the FBI with a bogus defensive briefing, um being nothing with August or late August, early September, because Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Adam Schiff had complained to the FBI that there was some sort of Russian disinformation going on that was going to be derogatory about Joe Biden in the Johnson Grasley investigation. And if you think of the timing, August is when h John Paul Maciaac sent that voluminous email to Rudy Giuliani that could have seen I believe was intercepted by the FBI. So somehow the Democrats panicked around that time and they went to the FBI and they said, we need you to do something about the Johnson Grasley investigation because it's Russian disinformation. Johnson gets ambushed by by the FBI walking down the corridor. His say, hey, there's a couple of SBI people in your office. He goes back, say start talking to him about his investigation and people involved in it saying warning him that Russia is trying to spread disinformation. He smelled a rat immediately, he said, that's not true, and if I see this in the media, I'll know that you are just setting me up. Sure enough, a day or two later, what happened. Story gets leaked to the media that the Johnson Gradually investigation has been polluted by Russian disinformation. We're talking to Miranda Vine New York Post. I mean, this to me is just incredibly compelling. And again I'm just gonna keep saying. If they actually gave politzeers based on real news, then Miranda and her crew at the New York Post should get all of them that were given out for Russia collusion. They should be rescinded. I want to ask you a couple of questions here. Everything in these details is the exact same except instead of Hunter Biden, Donald Trump Jr. Is the one with the laptop. How does the media cover it If Donald Trump Junior had been accused on a laptop of everything that Hunter Biden and Joe Biden, it's Donald Trump Junior and Donald Trump exact same details. Otherwise, this story has covered how in the United States media. It would have been wall to wall, just like the Steel dossier, the Russia collusion anything um that it would have been true. Unlike those Yeah, exactly. So that's the irony is that they blew up and one pullets as the Washington Post and the New York Times one pullet surprises for their coverage of the Russia collusion hoax, which was proven after a two year investigation by Robert Mueller to be completely baseless and seeded by Hillary Clinton's campaign to start with. So it was a Democrat dirty tricks campaign that was aided in the by you know, shadowy forces within the intelligence agencies. Probably the same people covered up our story and covered up the Hunter Biden laptop, and it would have been everywhere. But what we got instead was the opposite. This time, we had four days, five days after our their story was published, there was this letter up one intelligence officials right who say that this is all all Russian disinformation. Yet mostly they were former CIA and of course led by John Brennan, James Clapper, the usual truspect to perjured themselves in front of Congress. Um. And these people, fifty one of them, put the weight of their very high. I mean, I think there were four or five former CIA directors or acting CIA directors, and a whole lot of other very high ranking former intelligence officials who should hang their heads in shame for putting their name to a scoreless letter that dishonestly said that the story that Hunter Biden's laptop had all the earmarks of a Russian information operation in effect, and the way that Politico, which was first leaked that letter reported it was that this was a Russian disinformation operation. But of course they used weazel words since pretending that they weren't trying to convey that impression. Of course they were, and it killed the story, um Stone dead in terms of the rest of the media following it up. It was a very convenient, figly for the media to say, oh, no, we're not going to cover this, it's Russian propaganda and uh. And then, of course, a couple of days later you had Joe Biden had to appear at that last debate against Donald Trump. Bad timing for him, because of course Donald Trump bought up the Hunter Biden laptop store in his meeting with the Ukrainian paymaster, and Joe Biden um just used that letter from the one dirty intelligence operatives and said, you know, the intelligence community says that this is just a Russian plant, and turned the books back on Donald Trump, and he got away with it. It got him off the hook. He had gone to ground after our story, refused to answer questions hidden the basement, um, you know, ran away from any any questions. And after that debate, he really was home free. So, Miranda, and by the way, the Russian disinformation why, I'm sure you've seen some of these reports, and I hope some of the people that are listening to us right now are finally seeing the light of day. But around fifty pc of people up to six I think I saw on a recent survey, actually still believe that this hoax, that this was a Russian disinformation hoax, and the Hunter Biden laptop is all made up. How frustrating is it to you, not only that that argument was made, but that substantial portions of the American population believe that this is all a farce, that this entire story is not true. Well, I mean, it's incredibly frustrating. I mean, it's very depressing for America that that's happening. And it's not just on the story it's on COVID, it's on Ukraine, it's on all sorts of things. And the reason is because they've been propagandized by a completely corrupt establishment media. And I count the New York Times, in the Washington Post there, but you know also ABC, CBS, VIACOM, UM, CNN and the SNBC, etcetera. UM, they have a narrative. They have hired as experts, as consultants. UM. These these totally discredited deep state people, whether it be Brennan or Clapper or um, you know, Peter Strock, Lisa Page. These people are treated as heroes on CNN and MSNBC and as experts whose whose word is impeccable. In fact, they lied and uh and ran a complete propaganda mission. And on top of that, you have social media has just clamped down on the truth about these stories. So you know, you you have at least half the country is ignorant. Um. They only believe, they believe everything that they read in the New York Times of the Washington Post. Um. And it's not just in America. I know, you know from Australia that the leading news organizations in Australia, UM, they they rely on the reporting from the New York Times. They regard that has been gold standard, and so they are completely ignorant about what's been going on in America when it comes to Russia's collusion, Donald Trump, the Hunter Biden laptop, Joe Biden's corruption. Uh, they don't really know any of that. And that's the same across Europe and the rest of the world. I would say, because you're not getting your information from social media, and you're not getting it from what it regarded internationally as the most credible news sources, because the New York Times and so on, resting on the laurels of their former reputations. What Miranda, when you now they're all suddenly coming out right, CBS, I think that a story. I'm sure you kind of just arch your eyebrows up and they're like, oh, we did a research project and we determined that the Hunter Biden laptop is authentic. And then the New York Times they cover it, and then Washington Post they all cover it years later. Is that validation for you or is it more frustration for you when you see these stories being written years after you had shared the truth? It's not not really I it um, but uh, you know what I mean, we know it's true. It doesn't matter whether they say it is or it isn't. UM. I rolled my eyes a bit, but I'm glad that they've come on board. But I note always that um, that they're doing it. It's it's like a limited hangout. UM. They just put out enough information because they know it's coming out anyway. They know their readers are starting to ask why don't we know about this? It's leaking across the sort of iron wall that they've built up between themselves and the truth. UM. And they know that Hunter Biden has been under investigation since eighteen by the U S Attorney in Delaware. They know the Grand Juries Um, you know, has has interviewed or had testified various important witnesses, former business partners of Hunter Biden and so on. So they know that there's going to be a story and a possible indictment out of that, and they need to get ahead of the story. That's why they've been, um, you know, saying that certain limited parts of the laptop are authentic. But they always put a boiler plate paragraph down eight or ten pars which paragraphs which says, um, you know there's no evidence that Joe Biden was involved. Well, that's just not true. They now have the laptop. We've published voluminous information and it's come from elsewhere of Joe Biden's involvement. Joe Biden told the American people during the campaign that he knew nothing about his son Hunter's overseas business dealings. Um, that's just palpably false. There's evidence that is now on the public record of his meeting with you. At least a dozen of Hunter Biden's formed the business partners. There's also some evidence that I've published that Joe Biden financially benefited from Hunter Biden, that they were um, you know, shared debit cards, mingled finances, um. And that Hunter was paying to some of the bills in Joe's at Joe's mansion, you know, the maintenance of a painting, new shutters, new air conditioning, and so on, because it's a very expensive um estate to maintain. Um. And it was also paying for a cell phone for Joe Biden. I only have the tip of the iceberg. There's just a little bit of information of that in the laptop. But I'm sure that the Republican investigators who have access to bank accounts and so on. And that's important all that you're sharing there, because you actually and the New York Post did not cover as much of the sensational uh and ridiculous private life of Hunter Biden, right. I mean there's scatters of information on that laptop, nude videos, prostitution, the drug use. I mean, all of that is very so acious. But you guys, by your nature, said, Okay, he's not the candidate who's running. What we're really focusing on is Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's improper involvement in larger international affairs, not on the personal peccadillos of a drug addict son. And I think that's important because there is an attack sometimes where they say, well, Hunter Biden doesn't have an elected office, why should we care about anything with him? Uh, And they try to focus on the personal failings. You guys specifically avoided trying to sensationalize those. Yeah, we did, and deliberately so because I mean a because the evidence that Joe Biden was compromised by China, Russia, you know, Ukraine, these other countries was so bombshell that the fact that his son was a crack addict and you know, spent millions of dollars on hookers and uh and drugs was kind of irrelevant. I mean, that's a you know, that's a salacious story, um, and ordinarily you'd run it. But because the corruption angle and the national security angle just vastly overwhelmed that, we didn't want to have the two stories mixed up. We didn't want people to get distracted by the pawn and the hookers and the crack um and not see the real story. We ran, um, some pictures we ran, you know, obviously a photo a Hunter Um with the crack pipe in his mouth asleep, and a couple of other things like that, because um, that was just showing visually what we had that we had, that this was really it's significant in the evidence to your point, yes, that it is real, right that these are Hunter Biden videos, and that it would be hard to fake. And that's why that's important. But you're reporting is on the significant nature of Joe Biden's involvement. And I think that's so important because you'll get attacked now as there is an anowledgement at the laptop is real, some people will come out and say, well, why should we care about Hunter Biden. He's admitted he was a drug addict because of his relationships with foreign countries and the way that has implicated his father, the President of the United States. Yes, and also the fact that he was a crack addict made it even more implausible that these foreign countries and these oligarchs would give him tens of millions of dollars. He was his life was a complete mess during this period. He was incapable of even answering emails. For a lot of this. He'd go up on vendors, he'd be in rehab, he'd come back and be compassed for a little while, and then he'd full off the wagon again. So, um, you know his personal life, you know his divorce, his affairs, his his his problems were immense and so there was no way that he was a proper businessman. And uh, you know that was important to to make the point as well. But again, this is not a story. We never made it a story about Hunter Biden. It was always a story about Joe Biden. And that's something that James Comer, who's the chairman of the Oversight Committee now Republican, is always making that point that this is about Joe Biden. But it is a quite a a successful tactic by I guess the Biden apologists to continually push that point that you know, Hunter Biden isn't running for office under Biden isn't the president. You know, why don't you leave him alone? You know, he's had a terrible problem with addiction, and he's recovered, and you're just tormenting him, and he's a human being and so on. No, I mean, I feel sorry for Hunter Biden, but the fact is his laptop is a peep hole into a longstanding corruption problem that the man who is now the president has had for over four decades. As a very influential center stuff from Delaware, head of the Foreign Relations Committee duchess by China in his very earliest days back in the seventies, he was um, you know, pinpointed by the Chinese Communist Party as a as a likely ally. They invited him to China. Was one of the first delegations to go over there. He went to the equivalent of Martha's vineyards. He came back. He was so embarrassing in his effusive praise of China that the Weekly Standard at the time just made a mockery of him. Uh and and as a Senator Um. He was instrumental during the Clinton years in getting his reluctant Democrat colleagues to agree to China joining the World Trade Organization. I think it was in near two thousand one, and that had a really terrible effect on the American working class, from American manufacturing on on the American center at which lasts obviously to this day. So that was Joe Biden. And he's always carried water for China, boasted always about his hours of face to face time with President Jujuing ping Um. And so I just I just think that that story is terrifying for America. And we know now right to this present day, the classified documents scandal revolving around Joe Biden now links uh and I think this is why he's been so panicky. It links him to the Hunter Biden investigation that's been going on in Delaware, because, um, there there are there are items in that laptop that could well appear to be only could have come from classified information. And I'm not going to go too far with that because I don't know for sure, but I've published this week an email from the laptop that Hunter Biden had written to his business partner Devon Archer UM, and it was an uncharacteristic email. It was very long, it was very detail, very informed. UM. It listed twenty two points about Ukraine's political situation and had detailed information geo political strategic information predicting an escalation of Rush's destabilation. Destabilization came bang talking about you know, natural gas, what will happen with energy prices in the UK, etcetera. And that all comes to the fore when you know, UM that in that first tranche of classified documents discovered at the University of Pennsylvania in Joe Biden's office. UM, we're told by sources who told CNN that those related to Ukraine, to the United Kingdom and to Iran. And so two of those trees are mentioned in this uh. You know this this email that stands out because it's unlike anything that Hunter Biden has written in the nine years of this UM this laptop. It coincides with he's just about to join the Barisma board, as Devon Archer is, and his father is just about days away from going on his first trip to or an early trip to the Ukraine, and presumably Joe Biden got a classified briefing on the situation in Ukraine before he went and Hunters email to Devon Archer has a distinct flavor on an official briefing and maybe even a classified briefing. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app. Search f s are to listen live. Miranda Divine is with us. I'm Clay Travis. This is wins and Losses. You have a master of journalism. You've been in journalism for decades. What does it say about the state of United States journalism that the New York Times and the Washington Post. Let's use those two for example, because they consider themselves to be the paragon of the journalistic establishment. You've referred to both here. They put democracy dyes in darkness at the top of the Washington Post. For God's sakes. When Donald Trump was elected, the New York Times all the news that's fit to print. What does it say about those two lions of the liberal establishment that they wouldn't cover this story, that they would consider this to be unworthy of contemplation by their audience in the lead up to a election. Well, I think it tells you that they have been thoroughly corrupted. UM. And you know, I mean people will say, well, of course she's going to say that because their arrivals. But I think any fair assessment of the way that they have handled themselves since at least since Donald Trump came on the scene, UM publishing false stories, publishing anonymous anonymously sourced from obviously intelligence sources that were planting misinformation, disinformation. UM. They have they have swallowed hook line and sinker that the whole far left cultural ideology. But they've also obviously there's been a decision made to UM to just fall in and lose their skepticism when it comes to any dirt that they were provided when it came to Donald Trump, and then become pure as the driven snow, and very skeptical when it comes to any information that's derogatory about Joe Biden, even if that information is backed up a thousand different ways. They have never done a proper investigation of the laptop. Never. The Washington Post talks about having authenticated some of it, but even then, the copy of the hard drive that they have came through a very suspect avenue. It cannot suspect, but it came from. It didn't come direct They didn't get one directly from John Paul Maciaac. They got a copy of the hard drive that had gone through several hands to do with a guy called Jack Maxie and who you know, and people who people who had copied it and added things to it, and you know, and that gives the Washington Post um a sort of get out of jail free card because they can say, well, you know, the chain of custody on and this isn't very good because the hard drive that they've chosen to base their reporting on is not the snow white, crystal clear original hard drive that John Paul mac Isaac gave us. And so it's almost like they're setting themselves up with a sort of a back door to get away with it. It just seems otherwise it's just incredibly sloppy reporting, because John Paul Maciaac would have given them a copy. Um and jomp On mac Isaac's now written a book. He's put in there a lot of detail about um, you know, his interactions with the FBI, and some of that's quite sinister. Now. When he told me about how he felt that the FBI agents who came and took the laptop and a copy of the hard drive from him back in December twenty nine. He felt that they were threatening him or warning him to keep his mouth shut. And I thought, oh, you know, he's he's just a bit paranoid, as a lot of whistleblowers are, because they get scared and they haven't been haven't dealt with law enforcement before, and and they get frightened and um, and they've seen too many movies. So that's what I thought, So I dismissed. I didn't him write what he said. UM, But with the benefit of hindsight now and now seeing from the whistleblowers from the would have filed um just how dirty the elements of the FBI were, certainly the Washington Field office. I now really believe that he his his instincts were right, because when those FBI agents were leaving him with the laptop, one of them turned and said to him, in our experience, nothing bad happens to people who don't talk, and he just that just disquieted him, And as he thought about it, he thought, well, that was a warning for me not to talk. And I think they thought that he wouldn't talk. And because they took the laptop, but plus the hard drive that he'd made a copy of. They must have thought that that was it, that they had everything. They didn't realize he'd made another copy. Because he made a copy, Miranda, they would have buried the story and claimed that this laptop basically never existed exactly, because that's what they've done. We haven't heard from the laptop. When I think it was Senator Grassley or another senator asked, um, someone at the FBI in a hearing under oath, where is the laptop? They couldn't answer. Um. They they have. They have effectively canceled the laptop. They've canceled Tony Bobolynski. Tony Bobolynsky, you would think would be a prime witness for the grand jury that's going on in Delaware looking at Hunter Biden's services, business dealings, and Um, he knew all about the China, one of these China deals, and that he's never been subpoena, he's never been called as a witch. It's crazy, Uh, Miranda. You mentioned John Paul Maciaac being feared for his safety. Have you feared for your safety at all during the reporting on this laptop? Um, Look, it's it's run through my mind, but you know, I don't. I'm not I'm not too worried. No, but who knows. You're not suicidal. You're not contemplating death, by the way, for everybody out there listening right now. Correct, No, exactly exactly. You're not planning on jumping off a bridge. You're not planning on on vanishing for everybody out there. You're you're of sound mind, exactly. And I think there's so much of the story out now that it's impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. So it wouldn't really serve anyone. Uh any any use to to boss me? Now? You mentioned Carl Allen, and I just want to circle back around again to what I would consider to be the bravery of the New York Post to cover this, because I mentioned I don't think the Times would write it. I don't think the Post would write it. Um I I obviously people can say, oh were you? Look out Kicks sold last year to Fox. I do a lot of Fox News. I'm not a Fox News employee. For radio. This is an I Heeart production, this is not Fox. But in my experience with Fox, no one and I've met Rupert and Lochlan and everybody else. No one at Fox has ever told me, hey, don't talk about this, don't share your opinion on X or Y. That just doesn't have upen in my experience. I bet it is similar for you as well. What was it like working for Carl Allen? How important is it that the New York Post exists? Because who else is willing to even have the resources and frankly, the testicular fortitude to actually write a story like this that could create the massive uh you know, blowback like it did. Yeah, you put your finger right on really the most important part of this, which is that you know, as a journalist, it's very easy. You know, you you're health leather excited about a story. Uh you know, you think it's real, You've done your work on it. But it's going to be a huge bombshell and potentially blow up the election. Uh and you know what if it's wrong and it blows up in your face, that you have huge ramisfications for the newspaper and the company. So that decision um to be made by you know, the top editors, and Carl Allen was at the top um of the New York Post was incredibly courageous and uh, but you know I've known him and worked for him off and on, um for gosh, almost thirty years. I had my first child when I was a baby editor under him, and um, he's always been like the walls of steel. Um. He's one of the real old school newspaper editors. Uh and just you know, hasn't has a nose for a story. He's as canny as they come, street wise, can smell bullshit a million yards off. He's incredible and he's the best editor I've ever worked for. Lauren he Um, he just you know, he just he's willing. He knows that all he cares about is the story. You know, if the story is a great story, without fear of favorite, doesn't matter whether it's helpful to to the Republicans or the Democrats. He's just going to go for He loves it. And that's what anyone who's a real newspaper person, Um, that's what that's what they're about. It's not really being a media person's being a journalist, particularly old school newspaper reporter. And um, you know, I I grew up my father was one of them. Um. Cole Allen was one of them. I just grew up admiring and respecting those old school newspaper men, and most of them were men, and uh, and you know, it's it's a long gone era. And I think Cole's sort of the last of those, um, those people, because obviously the Internet has changed everything. But anyway, Cole's just amazing and it never would have happened without him. And he trusted me, and I trusted him, and that is because we had many years of working together. Miranda. I come back to this big question. Why was the FBI so afraid of Donald Trump? Why was the New York Times so afraid of Donald Trump? Why was the Washington was so afraid of Donald Trump that they were willing to rig elections against him? I'm sure in the back of your mind you have thought a lot about this too, because ultimately someone at the FBI had to make the choice to engage in this rig job, right, And maybe it's a group of people. What I can never quite put my finger on is what did they find so terrifying about this guy? Well, it was that they couldn't control him. Um. If you remember, Um, there was a Chinese professor after the election, a video that he had made leaked out and was soon quickly wiped off YouTube. But he in that said he was very close to in the hierarchy. And in that video he said, Donald Trump, you know, we've always in China had our friends in Wall Street, but not but Wall Street could not control Trump. And that's the essence of it, Wall Street meaning really the establishment politicians because that's where the money comes from. And um, the you know, Donald Trump was completely just. He was just America first. He didn't want to go into wars. He wanted to end the war in Afghanistan. UM. He was a threat to the what Eisenhow called the military industrial complex. UM, really an existential threat. And so you know there's a lot of gravy trains in Washington are hitched to to that wagon to having endless wars. And that was one part of it. Also his belligerence towards China, which you know a lot of the elites they make their money from China, and he made it crystal clear that he was going to screw them over or make things fear screw them over when it came to trade deals. All of that got derailed with COVID, which came from China. UM and then in their cultural project, you know, the woke ideology again, Um he was. He was blowing that up. And so in every aspect of Washington bureaucracy, the administrative state, he was starting to dismantle it. Even even with the economy, you know, his tax cuts and sign which proved to be successful and fuelled the economy. Um, nearly part of his until covid Um. That also was a rebuke to the kind of norms of you know, economic sort of norms in Washington where um he was. He was just challenging all those norms. And he was also an embarrassment to them. I guests just with his domeanor but they you know, they talked that up. Um. And also, I mean the fact is Donald Trump's no saint, He's no angel. He Um. He has a sort of shambolic appearance. People were embarrassed by him. Um. He was a little bit to queens for the stuck up people in the state department and in in Washington. Um. And so I think in every way he offended their sensibilities, He challenged their um financial under pinnings and and really their power base. He challenged their power and so he became an existential threat to the people who really run this country. UM, we're talking to Miranda Divine, and I hope you will share this conversation because I think it's super important, especially if the people you may be friends or family with are in thet of population out there that just doesn't understand the Hunter Biden story, the laptop and has bought into this Russian disinformation argument put out by so many people in positions of power. Um, a lot of people who are listening to us right now are red pilled. And I think that metaphor works so well because it is true, Miranda, and I'm sure you've experienced this now too, that once you start to pull the thread here, you recognize how deep some of these conspiracies go. And if we're really going to be a functioning democracy, it's not things like January six. That's a symptom of the dishonesty that I think many people in this country innately feel from their leadership. Right And and I give you tremendous credit because, without worrying about who you were going to antagonize, you simply pursued the truth. And I think you have told the I think it's a more important story. I really do than Watergate, And it's symptomatic of where our country has gone that the Washington Post, which published the Pentagon Papers and was willing to pursue Watergate, just pretends that this story basically doesn't exist because it directly attacks their base. Which again, this is a bigger picture story. But I think this has a lot to do with the subscription model and the fact that the New York Times and the Washington Post basically make their money off far left wing people now and they can't antagonize that base without threatening to destroy the essence of their business. And even more than that, I think there may be something sinister about the subscription model that they have. UM. You know, you look at, for instance, the New York Times, I think the numbers of things like nine million subscribers they have, uh. And you know, when the Internet Internet came into being, um and basically stole the revenue base of these incredibly lucrative newspapers, UM, they had to find another source of income or collapse. And many newspapers, as you know, across the country collapsed. And so for those papers, subscription models became everything for them, and for the New York Times, incredibly successful and you know, when you think about it. I spent a lot of time reading the comments on columns and stories on the Washington Post in the New York Times, and they have a certain sameness to them which is reminiscent of the sort of botch activity that you get in on Twitter. Um. And so I started suspecting that, um, that a lot of these subscriptions because you know, you can get a subscription to the New York Times when they do their deals for a dollar, So it would not cost very much for the same people who are buying bots on Twitter to buy, you know, thousands of subscriptions and then set their people onto writing the narrative in the comments. And then when you take that one step further. And we don't know this because the New York Times the Washington Post don't tell us who their subscribers are, but there are bulk subscriptions, and um, some of these bolk subscriptions. There is suggestion brought up by China and other of our adversaries overseas, and I believe that the Republicans will be looking into that. Oh, that's fascinating as well. Uh. I. When I was practicing attorney Miranda and I appreciate all your time. I know how busy you are. I think that's gonna be compelling listening for so many people out there. I used to always end my my depositions UM by saying, what do you wish that I had asked you that I didn't? Is there something else you'd like to say to this audience that I didn't give you the opportunity to close with that you think is important that they might need to know. Not Really, you've been incredibly uh forensic and your questioning. UM. The only thing I guess I just leave with is that for four decades, Joe Biden has sort of traded on this mythology that he's honest Joe, that he's a family man, he's a devout Catholic, um that you know, his entire career was wounded on a terrible tragedy where his wife and his baby daughter were killed in a car accident that injured his two sons, Hunter and Bo Biden, and he used the photograph of himself being sworn in at their hospital bed, these two bandaged injured boys in the foreground um as the basis of his campaigns ever since, and that elicited a lot of sympathy across the country. But then when I started doing the book, I thought, what kind of a man, you know, why did he have to get sworn in inside the hospital room? Such a great question. Even at that time of great tragedy and grief, he had his eye on the political payoff. And and then later on, you know, I'm thinking he knew that his son Hunter had an alcohol and drug abuse problem. I mean, Hunter was arrested when he was eighteen. He he was a troubled song and uh, and what kind of a father, knowing his son is a terrible addict, puts him, makes him the bag man, and puts him in front of this unaccountable tient of cash from Barisma as well as everything else. Um. You know, I just my entire I used too many years ago. I think I'm Catholic. I thought Joe Biden was an Irish Catholic, sort of tribally like my people. Um. But but over time I've come to see him as a very sinister figure. And I think that his legacy, if nothing else comes out of all of this, I think that at least his legacy will be seen honestly, and that he will be seen as one of the most malign people to become president. Miranda Divine, you deserve all the Politzers. I appreciate all the work that you have done. I appreciate the time today. I would encourage people to go all of you at Miranda Divine. If they want more details, I would tell them to go buy your book Laptop from Hell. And we appreciate your time. Keep up your good work and given what the FBI is up to, stay healthy. Thanks so look, Clay, I'm Clay Travis. This has been Thank you. I'm Clay Travis. This has been wins and losses. She was Miranda Divine. This was a lot of fun. I hope you guys will share and listen to more episodes.