Pushkin. In the first years of this century, there was a wave of technological innovation in the way people get oil and gas out of the ground. It was popularly referred to as fracking, but in fact fracking had been around for a long time. What was going on was a combination of techniques that people in the industry called the shale revolution. This boom brought down the price of natural gas, and it turned the United States into the world's biggest producer of oil and gas. It also arguably extended human being's ability to live in a fossil fuel powered world, slowed the transition to carbon free energy, and so made climate change worse. But what if you could take the technological innovations of the shale revolution and use them to generate a different kind of energy, energy that's carbon free energy, that helps get the world off of fossil fuels. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Tim Latimer. He's the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. Tim's problem is this, how do you use innovations from the oil and gas industry to generate carbon free energy. Tim told me he started his career deep in the heart of the shale revolution.

Pushkin. In the first years of this century, there was a wave of technological innovation in the way people get oil and gas out of the ground. It was popularly referred to as fracking, but in fact fracking had been around for a long time. What was going on was a combination of techniques that people in the industry called the shale revolution. This boom brought down the price of natural gas, and it turned the United States into the world's biggest producer of oil and gas. It also arguably extended human being's ability to live in a fossil fuel powered world, slowed the transition to carbon free energy, and so made climate change worse. But what if you could take the technological innovations of the shale revolution and use them to generate a different kind of energy, energy that's carbon free energy, that helps get the world off of fossil fuels. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Tim Latimer. He's the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. Tim's problem is this, how do you use innovations from the oil and gas industry to generate carbon free energy. Tim told me he started his career deep in the heart of the shale revolution.

I grew up in Texas and then I went to college at the University of Tulsa, both places where you know, sort of the oil and gas industries in the blood of the people here. And I happened to graduate at the very advent of the US oil and gas shale boom. And I think probably almost everybody I knew went into the oil and gas industry out of my college class as kind of a consequence of it being a boom time in Oklahoma. And so I took a job back in what was my original hometown of Houston, started my career as a drilling engineer, and in that role, I mostly worked out on the rigs themselves as a site supervisor. So I've spent the majority of my time with the oil field, either in South Texas or West Texas, supervising field crews.

I grew up in Texas and then I went to college at the University of Tulsa, both places where you know, sort of the oil and gas industries in the blood of the people here. And I happened to graduate at the very advent of the US oil and gas shale boom. And I think probably almost everybody I knew went into the oil and gas industry out of my college class as kind of a consequence of it being a boom time in Oklahoma. And so I took a job back in what was my original hometown of Houston, started my career as a drilling engineer, and in that role, I mostly worked out on the rigs themselves as a site supervisor. So I've spent the majority of my time with the oil field, either in South Texas or West Texas, supervising field crews.

So what was the turn? Why aren't you still doing that?

So what was the turn? Why aren't you still doing that?

You know, it's interesting even when I joined the industry, already had some questions about, you know, what is the future in this industry in a world where we all know that climate change is a much more serious energet problem than we had previously understood. And so what I found is that the more time I spent in the industry, the more passionate I was about climate change, and the less I was seeing the industry adapt around me the way I thought was necessary to face the urgent crisis of climate.

You know, it's interesting even when I joined the industry, already had some questions about, you know, what is the future in this industry in a world where we all know that climate change is a much more serious energet problem than we had previously understood. And so what I found is that the more time I spent in the industry, the more passionate I was about climate change, and the less I was seeing the industry adapt around me the way I thought was necessary to face the urgent crisis of climate.

So what's the move? What do you do? Well?

So what's the move? What do you do? Well?

I was looking at clean energy, and I thought what can I do? And so when I looked at solar or wind or automotive, I thought, you know, in electric vehicles. I thought, these are all important things, but what do I have to add there? And so I was always kind of looking for my move. And then actually an early project I worked on when I was a drilling engineer in South Texas. The wells we were drilling are actually a little bit higher temperature than normal oil and gas wells, and so one of my first jobs was, hey, research how we can make high temperature drilling work. And all of the literature I found on researching high temperature drilling came from this field called geothermal, and this was about a decade ago, and to be honest, I'd never heard of geothermal before at that point in time, and I read more about it, and it was like, Oh, you drill wells, but you just produce steam and you make carbon free electricity from it. And that's where I became incredibly excited about the opportunity. I was like, wait, I can do what I already know how to do, but for a carbon free and sustainable energy resource, and that to me just seemed too good of an opportunity to pass up.

I was looking at clean energy, and I thought what can I do? And so when I looked at solar or wind or automotive, I thought, you know, in electric vehicles. I thought, these are all important things, but what do I have to add there? And so I was always kind of looking for my move. And then actually an early project I worked on when I was a drilling engineer in South Texas. The wells we were drilling are actually a little bit higher temperature than normal oil and gas wells, and so one of my first jobs was, hey, research how we can make high temperature drilling work. And all of the literature I found on researching high temperature drilling came from this field called geothermal, and this was about a decade ago, and to be honest, I'd never heard of geothermal before at that point in time, and I read more about it, and it was like, Oh, you drill wells, but you just produce steam and you make carbon free electricity from it. And that's where I became incredibly excited about the opportunity. I was like, wait, I can do what I already know how to do, but for a carbon free and sustainable energy resource, and that to me just seemed too good of an opportunity to pass up.

Yeah. I mean, one of the most interesting things to me about what you're trying to do at a certain level is you're trying to take this innovation that came out of the fossil fuel industry, probably the most important innovation of the twenty first century in the fossil fuel industry right and use it to get energy without fossil fuels, to move us away from fossil fuels. Is there something really elegant about that?

Yeah. I mean, one of the most interesting things to me about what you're trying to do at a certain level is you're trying to take this innovation that came out of the fossil fuel industry, probably the most important innovation of the twenty first century in the fossil fuel industry right and use it to get energy without fossil fuels, to move us away from fossil fuels. Is there something really elegant about that?

There is, and that was something that always appealed to me in the job of oil and gas. I mean, honestly, if it wasn't for climate change and sustainability challenges, I would have never left that career because it's a very exciting thing. You're working with really bright people and solving major technical challenges and one of the things that was exciting for me is a decade ago, the advent of things like horizontal drilling was still so new that the innovations were coming out fast and furious. You know, when you work in the field, I was working a two week on, two week off rotation. You know, you go live on the rig for.

There is, and that was something that always appealed to me in the job of oil and gas. I mean, honestly, if it wasn't for climate change and sustainability challenges, I would have never left that career because it's a very exciting thing. You're working with really bright people and solving major technical challenges and one of the things that was exciting for me is a decade ago, the advent of things like horizontal drilling was still so new that the innovations were coming out fast and furious. You know, when you work in the field, I was working a two week on, two week off rotation. You know, you go live on the rig for.

Two out you live on an oil rig, yeah.

Two out you live on an oil rig, yeah.

Yep, and then you have two weeks off. And the number of times I came back from my two weeks off and there was a new piece of equipment out there, or a new function or a new software program that had been developed in our time off was just shocking. It was just so invigorating to work in a place where the technology advancement was happening so rapidly. And so that's one of the things that clicked for me whenever I looked at geothermal is geothermal is an industry that historically has been much smaller than oil and gas, and they just don't drill as much many wells as oil and gas. And for a variety of reasons. Right when the shale boom and fracking was taking off for oil and gas in America fifteen years ago, it became a really tough market for geothermal. So right when the drilling technology breakthroughs were coming fast and furious, no one was actually drilling geothermal wells anymore because of economic challenges. So I think as a result, there wasn't this technology transfer, this natural dissemination of information from oil and gas drilling to geothermal drilling. And I started looking at things like the cost assumptions that went into what people thought it would cost to drill geothermal well and I realized that they were somewhat frozen in time from before the advent of the shale boom, and as a result, it was using performance targets that were a decade too old, and with as fast as the innovation was happening in our sector, a decade too old and it was ten times too conservative.

Yep, and then you have two weeks off. And the number of times I came back from my two weeks off and there was a new piece of equipment out there, or a new function or a new software program that had been developed in our time off was just shocking. It was just so invigorating to work in a place where the technology advancement was happening so rapidly. And so that's one of the things that clicked for me whenever I looked at geothermal is geothermal is an industry that historically has been much smaller than oil and gas, and they just don't drill as much many wells as oil and gas. And for a variety of reasons. Right when the shale boom and fracking was taking off for oil and gas in America fifteen years ago, it became a really tough market for geothermal. So right when the drilling technology breakthroughs were coming fast and furious, no one was actually drilling geothermal wells anymore because of economic challenges. So I think as a result, there wasn't this technology transfer, this natural dissemination of information from oil and gas drilling to geothermal drilling. And I started looking at things like the cost assumptions that went into what people thought it would cost to drill geothermal well and I realized that they were somewhat frozen in time from before the advent of the shale boom, and as a result, it was using performance targets that were a decade too old, and with as fast as the innovation was happening in our sector, a decade too old and it was ten times too conservative.

Huh. It would be like if you were trying to build something with AI right now and we're sort of using assumptions about AI five years ago or something exactly.

Huh. It would be like if you were trying to build something with AI right now and we're sort of using assumptions about AI five years ago or something exactly.

To give you an example of that, you know, when you think about the year Tesla was founded in two thousand and three, nobody, not the big automotive companies, not the Department of Energy, No one assumed that electric vehicles were going to actually be a meaningful part of the energy mix. And the big reason was that they thought the battery storage was going to be too expensive. And you know what, if we had to start an industry from scratch where the only use case for batteries was electric vehicles, it would have never come down the cost curve. But what happened in the nineties. We came out with cell phones and laptops, and all of a sudden, lithium ion batteries got incredibly cheap and incredibly high quality because there was a huge manufacturing production system that grew up around providing a nice battery for your laptop and phone. And so the innovation Tesla had was, OK, everybody was using decade old assumptions on battery technology, but there's been a boom in battery technology driven by consumer electronics. What if we just tape them all together and put them in a car. And so it's amazing how often you see innovations where you know, if geothermal had to completely reinvent the way that wells were drilled to be successful, it'd be really tough to do. But whenever we can look at an industry like oil and gas that drills one hundred times as many way else the geothermal industry does, and then cherry pick the innovations from that to advance our cost curve forward. It can be have dramatic results.

To give you an example of that, you know, when you think about the year Tesla was founded in two thousand and three, nobody, not the big automotive companies, not the Department of Energy, No one assumed that electric vehicles were going to actually be a meaningful part of the energy mix. And the big reason was that they thought the battery storage was going to be too expensive. And you know what, if we had to start an industry from scratch where the only use case for batteries was electric vehicles, it would have never come down the cost curve. But what happened in the nineties. We came out with cell phones and laptops, and all of a sudden, lithium ion batteries got incredibly cheap and incredibly high quality because there was a huge manufacturing production system that grew up around providing a nice battery for your laptop and phone. And so the innovation Tesla had was, OK, everybody was using decade old assumptions on battery technology, but there's been a boom in battery technology driven by consumer electronics. What if we just tape them all together and put them in a car. And so it's amazing how often you see innovations where you know, if geothermal had to completely reinvent the way that wells were drilled to be successful, it'd be really tough to do. But whenever we can look at an industry like oil and gas that drills one hundred times as many way else the geothermal industry does, and then cherry pick the innovations from that to advance our cost curve forward. It can be have dramatic results.

So let's talk a little bit about geothermal energy. I mean, what it is is kind of right there in the name, but let's start there. Anyways, what's geothermal energy?

So let's talk a little bit about geothermal energy. I mean, what it is is kind of right there in the name, but let's start there. Anyways, what's geothermal energy?

Yeah, the name, you know, basically means earth and hot, and that's sort of the basic premise of what we're going for. You know, the world is very big, and the world is very hot, and the deeper you go, the hotter it gets, and so you know, the energy content in the heat of the Earth is so large that it's essentially inexhaustible. And so geothermal really has been around for millennia. You know, you can go and visit these you know, Roman baths all over Europe or elsewhere that were built on thermal hot springs, and if you think about it, that's geothermal energy at work. You're swimming in a nice heated pool because the hot water is flowing up from the heat of the Earth. And then around one hundred years ago in Italy, actually in Tuscany, the very first geothermal power project worked where some a brilliant team came up with the idea that, you know, if there's steam coming out of the ground because it's really hot here, what if we use that to power a turbine and make electricity. So the first ever electricity from geothermal came from tapping into some of these natural steam vents over one hundred years ago. And that's sort of the idea of geothermal as it's advanced. You know, you know, the number of spots where steam literally comes out of the ground on its own is a little bit limited. So people began using the idea of drilling and so starting back in New Zealand and the northern California in like the nineteen fifties and sixties, people started drilling wells in areas where they knew the geology was hotter, which replaces that are basically so hot that steam is practically, you know, bursting to come out of the ground, and then you drill into those areas. And that was really what the industry took off on, and you know, began sixty years ago with that kind of geothermal development, and it's progressed now to be and twenty five countries all over the world there's twenty five countries more that have geothermal projects and development. As a total percentage of the energy mix, it's less than one percent of the world energy mix, so it's still not huge, but it's really meaningful in certain markets.

Yeah, the name, you know, basically means earth and hot, and that's sort of the basic premise of what we're going for. You know, the world is very big, and the world is very hot, and the deeper you go, the hotter it gets, and so you know, the energy content in the heat of the Earth is so large that it's essentially inexhaustible. And so geothermal really has been around for millennia. You know, you can go and visit these you know, Roman baths all over Europe or elsewhere that were built on thermal hot springs, and if you think about it, that's geothermal energy at work. You're swimming in a nice heated pool because the hot water is flowing up from the heat of the Earth. And then around one hundred years ago in Italy, actually in Tuscany, the very first geothermal power project worked where some a brilliant team came up with the idea that, you know, if there's steam coming out of the ground because it's really hot here, what if we use that to power a turbine and make electricity. So the first ever electricity from geothermal came from tapping into some of these natural steam vents over one hundred years ago. And that's sort of the idea of geothermal as it's advanced. You know, you know, the number of spots where steam literally comes out of the ground on its own is a little bit limited. So people began using the idea of drilling and so starting back in New Zealand and the northern California in like the nineteen fifties and sixties, people started drilling wells in areas where they knew the geology was hotter, which replaces that are basically so hot that steam is practically, you know, bursting to come out of the ground, and then you drill into those areas. And that was really what the industry took off on, and you know, began sixty years ago with that kind of geothermal development, and it's progressed now to be and twenty five countries all over the world there's twenty five countries more that have geothermal projects and development. As a total percentage of the energy mix, it's less than one percent of the world energy mix, so it's still not huge, but it's really meaningful in certain markets.

Like there just aren't that many places where everything lines up so that with this sort of twentieth century technology you can get energy from the heat of the earth in an efficient and useful way. Right, it's quite limited in the end.

Like there just aren't that many places where everything lines up so that with this sort of twentieth century technology you can get energy from the heat of the earth in an efficient and useful way. Right, it's quite limited in the end.

Exactly exactly what we found with geothermal is that as we tapped those really low hanging fruit resources and stuff that was shallow and hot and highly productive. As we tapped that and we tried to move to deeper resources that maybe wouldn't flow as much or not be as hot, the technology wasn't there to be able to still produce that power and to do so economically, because drilling is costs are very dependent by how deep you have to go. And as we started tapping the shallow geothermal resources and having to move on to the deep ones, the technology couldn't keep up, and those deeper resources became uneconomics. So the industry, at least in the United States kind of stalled out. In the nineties, once these natural hotspots had been tapped and really really had been a bit of a period of stagnation ever since then.

Exactly exactly what we found with geothermal is that as we tapped those really low hanging fruit resources and stuff that was shallow and hot and highly productive. As we tapped that and we tried to move to deeper resources that maybe wouldn't flow as much or not be as hot, the technology wasn't there to be able to still produce that power and to do so economically, because drilling is costs are very dependent by how deep you have to go. And as we started tapping the shallow geothermal resources and having to move on to the deep ones, the technology couldn't keep up, and those deeper resources became uneconomics. So the industry, at least in the United States kind of stalled out. In the nineties, once these natural hotspots had been tapped and really really had been a bit of a period of stagnation ever since then.

And I understand that by the time you wanted to start a company, you know, to make geothermal energy, harvest geothermal energy, it was sort of out of fashion, right, People had kind of given up.

And I understand that by the time you wanted to start a company, you know, to make geothermal energy, harvest geothermal energy, it was sort of out of fashion, right, People had kind of given up.

It was very much out of fashion. And so early on I was looking for funding. And I remember going to an investor conference, an energy investor conference, and I walked up to somebody that I knew was a big investor in the space, and I introduced myself to him, and this would have been about twenty seventeen, and I said, Hey, I'm Tim. I'm working on Fervo Energy. It's a startup I co founded that does geothermal energy. And he holds his hand up and says, I'm going to stop you right there and save us both some time. I'm not interested in geothermal energy. Thanks for the converse, and walked away. And that was a lot of the sentiment around what, you know, what what was the future for geothermal is is? That was sort of the reaction that we got on energy conferences. It was a bit of a bit of a punchline.

It was very much out of fashion. And so early on I was looking for funding. And I remember going to an investor conference, an energy investor conference, and I walked up to somebody that I knew was a big investor in the space, and I introduced myself to him, and this would have been about twenty seventeen, and I said, Hey, I'm Tim. I'm working on Fervo Energy. It's a startup I co founded that does geothermal energy. And he holds his hand up and says, I'm going to stop you right there and save us both some time. I'm not interested in geothermal energy. Thanks for the converse, and walked away. And that was a lot of the sentiment around what, you know, what what was the future for geothermal is is? That was sort of the reaction that we got on energy conferences. It was a bit of a bit of a punchline.

Because people had tried it and it seemed like it didn't work exactly. So how do you how do you how do you get going in that environment? How do you get from the guy putting his hand in your face to actually building a company?

Because people had tried it and it seemed like it didn't work exactly. So how do you how do you how do you get going in that environment? How do you get from the guy putting his hand in your face to actually building a company?

I realized that there was such a gap between how quickly the technology for drilling had advanced an oil on gas and what the geothermal industry was used to that people just didn't know what the performance was really like. And I remember having some very bizarre conversations where people would tell me things like you can't drill horizontally, and I'm like, I just got off a rig, you know, a few weeks ago where that's what I was doing, and we were doing it for the thousandth time, like, and it was just amazing the gap and understanding of technology there, and so I knew we were onto something.

I realized that there was such a gap between how quickly the technology for drilling had advanced an oil on gas and what the geothermal industry was used to that people just didn't know what the performance was really like. And I remember having some very bizarre conversations where people would tell me things like you can't drill horizontally, and I'm like, I just got off a rig, you know, a few weeks ago where that's what I was doing, and we were doing it for the thousandth time, like, and it was just amazing the gap and understanding of technology there, and so I knew we were onto something.

Do you think part of that is like the culture gap? I mean that even if the technical skills are kind of overlapping, the culture gap between people who were fracking on an oil rig in West Texas or whatever and the people who are trying to geothermal start up in Northern California, they're just not talking to each other, because why would they No.

Do you think part of that is like the culture gap? I mean that even if the technical skills are kind of overlapping, the culture gap between people who were fracking on an oil rig in West Texas or whatever and the people who are trying to geothermal start up in Northern California, they're just not talking to each other, because why would they No.

I think that's I think that I think there's a lot of that. You know, one piece of advice I got from a mentor early on who'd invested in a bunch of different sectors is that if you want to be the leader in a sector, you need to be at the geographic center of where that sector works. You know, if you're starting an AI company, you're probably going to be really well served to be in the Bay Area. If you're starting a medical device or pharmaceutical company, you're going to be well served to be in Boston. If you're starting a drilling company, you should probably be in Houston. And one of the things that I found is when we started Fervo, there was zero geothermal companies in Houston. They were all in places all over the world, but in America they were not. None of them were close to Houston.

I think that's I think that I think there's a lot of that. You know, one piece of advice I got from a mentor early on who'd invested in a bunch of different sectors is that if you want to be the leader in a sector, you need to be at the geographic center of where that sector works. You know, if you're starting an AI company, you're probably going to be really well served to be in the Bay Area. If you're starting a medical device or pharmaceutical company, you're going to be well served to be in Boston. If you're starting a drilling company, you should probably be in Houston. And one of the things that I found is when we started Fervo, there was zero geothermal companies in Houston. They were all in places all over the world, but in America they were not. None of them were close to Houston.

And Houston is like the intellection rual center of this shale fracking drilling revolution. Right, there's this incredible innovation coming out of there. It is like the Bay Area for AI or something exactly right.

And Houston is like the intellection rual center of this shale fracking drilling revolution. Right, there's this incredible innovation coming out of there. It is like the Bay Area for AI or something exactly right.

All the big companies, all the big suppliers, some of the best research institutions, whether you're talking about in Houston, like the University of Houston or Rice, or in the area like the University of Texas or Texas A and M all kind of centered around this intellectual hub of subsurface that is in Houston. And there was no geothermal here and no geothermal presence here. And I think it is Yeah, you could say it's cultural, but it's also just geographical. There weren't the same number of water cooler conversations or people bump into each other and in the hallway in these other areas where that knowledge share can happen. And so that was actually something being somebody from Houston and I actually part of my journey. We did move out to the Bay Area to start the company, and that's where we founded the company, but always with a lens of making Houston the headquarters because we wanted to be in and the center of that intellectual hub.

All the big companies, all the big suppliers, some of the best research institutions, whether you're talking about in Houston, like the University of Houston or Rice, or in the area like the University of Texas or Texas A and M all kind of centered around this intellectual hub of subsurface that is in Houston. And there was no geothermal here and no geothermal presence here. And I think it is Yeah, you could say it's cultural, but it's also just geographical. There weren't the same number of water cooler conversations or people bump into each other and in the hallway in these other areas where that knowledge share can happen. And so that was actually something being somebody from Houston and I actually part of my journey. We did move out to the Bay Area to start the company, and that's where we founded the company, but always with a lens of making Houston the headquarters because we wanted to be in and the center of that intellectual hub.

Well why start the company in the Bay Area?

Well why start the company in the Bay Area?

Then, briefly, it's gets to an interesting question speaking about geography. I mean the Bay areas where startups happen, you know, And it sort of is interesting even to this day. And Houston has an actually incredible and vibrant and growing innovation ecosystem.

Then, briefly, it's gets to an interesting question speaking about geography. I mean the Bay areas where startups happen, you know, And it sort of is interesting even to this day. And Houston has an actually incredible and vibrant and growing innovation ecosystem.

You need, like the hybrid DNA you need, the startup DNA in the Bay Area, and the fracking DNA of Houston. Basically you do.

You need, like the hybrid DNA you need, the startup DNA in the Bay Area, and the fracking DNA of Houston. Basically you do.

That's part of the magic. And the amount of capital available for people with wild ideas that could change the world is still so concentrated in the Bay Area.

That's part of the magic. And the amount of capital available for people with wild ideas that could change the world is still so concentrated in the Bay Area.

That's the It's like when they ask the guy, why do you rob banks, and he said, that's where the money is. That's why the Bay Area. That is exactly right, and that said, right now, where are you talking to me from?

That's the It's like when they ask the guy, why do you rob banks, and he said, that's where the money is. That's why the Bay Area. That is exactly right, and that said, right now, where are you talking to me from?

I'm in Houston, Texas net right now in twenty twenty and our third year of existence as a company. We still have an office in the Bay Area and a lot of great people that work there. But we made the decision that now it's time to scale up. Now it's time to start drilling these wells. Now is the time where it's most important that we're located here in Houston, and so I relocated back here and our corporate headquarters are here in Houston.

I'm in Houston, Texas net right now in twenty twenty and our third year of existence as a company. We still have an office in the Bay Area and a lot of great people that work there. But we made the decision that now it's time to scale up. Now it's time to start drilling these wells. Now is the time where it's most important that we're located here in Houston, and so I relocated back here and our corporate headquarters are here in Houston.

In a minute, Tim and his company build a real geothermal power corner. So where are you now? I mean, you have this thesis several years ago, which is basically if we bring the technology from the shale boom, if you're fracking technology to bear on geothermal, we can make it work.

In a minute, Tim and his company build a real geothermal power corner. So where are you now? I mean, you have this thesis several years ago, which is basically if we bring the technology from the shale boom, if you're fracking technology to bear on geothermal, we can make it work.

Where are you now, Yeah, we're making it work. That's where we are now. So in twenty twenty two, we drilled three wells at a site in northern Nevada as part of a development agreement with Google Google pay It played a major catalytic role in this. Google is one of the first people to bring up an awareness of something that is a recognition in the market that's benefitted Fervo a lot, which is that solar and wind are going to be the workhorses of a decarbonized electric cred but cannot do the job all on their own, and we need a complementary resource like geothermal that can work twenty four to seven to complement wind and solar so we can get all the way to decarbonized electric cred. And I think the exciting thing for us as a company is we began that project in twenty twenty two. We published results from a very successful test phase of that project a just over the summer, and after the results of that test phase, we move forward with commissioning that project and that product is now producing electricity. We've now just finished and brought onto the Electric cred our very first ever electricity producing project using advanced geothermal technology.

Where are you now, Yeah, we're making it work. That's where we are now. So in twenty twenty two, we drilled three wells at a site in northern Nevada as part of a development agreement with Google Google pay It played a major catalytic role in this. Google is one of the first people to bring up an awareness of something that is a recognition in the market that's benefitted Fervo a lot, which is that solar and wind are going to be the workhorses of a decarbonized electric cred but cannot do the job all on their own, and we need a complementary resource like geothermal that can work twenty four to seven to complement wind and solar so we can get all the way to decarbonized electric cred. And I think the exciting thing for us as a company is we began that project in twenty twenty two. We published results from a very successful test phase of that project a just over the summer, and after the results of that test phase, we move forward with commissioning that project and that product is now producing electricity. We've now just finished and brought onto the Electric cred our very first ever electricity producing project using advanced geothermal technology.

Great, so you have this project in Nevada that just turned on, just started producing real electricity for real people in the last few months. Right, Yes, how does it work? Like, just tell me what's going on there? How's it work?

Great, so you have this project in Nevada that just turned on, just started producing real electricity for real people in the last few months. Right, Yes, how does it work? Like, just tell me what's going on there? How's it work?

Yeah? So the way our kind of geothermal works. And again I told you earlier that we had the tech fifty years ago to do these perfect shallow hot productive resources, but it's always been a struggle to make the other deeper, less productive resources work.

Yeah? So the way our kind of geothermal works. And again I told you earlier that we had the tech fifty years ago to do these perfect shallow hot productive resources, but it's always been a struggle to make the other deeper, less productive resources work.

Most of the world, the vast majority.

Most of the world, the vast majority.

Of the most of the world, every place that's not Iceland, basically. And so what we do differently is we drill our wells deeper, for one. And then when we drill these wells deeper, not only do we drill them down vertically, but we then drill them horizontally as well. So to give you some depths to think about the project that we did in Nevada, we drilled that well eight thousand feet straight down and then four thousand feet horizontally.

Of the most of the world, every place that's not Iceland, basically. And so what we do differently is we drill our wells deeper, for one. And then when we drill these wells deeper, not only do we drill them down vertically, but we then drill them horizontally as well. So to give you some depths to think about the project that we did in Nevada, we drilled that well eight thousand feet straight down and then four thousand feet horizontally.

Wow, so like a mile and a half down and almost a mile over, So like an L. I should be thinking of a capital L.

Wow, so like a mile and a half down and almost a mile over, So like an L. I should be thinking of a capital L.

Yes, a giant capital L. And then we but a second giant capital L right next to it in parallel. So a few hundred feet away is another well that's as deep in parallel.

Yes, a giant capital L. And then we but a second giant capital L right next to it in parallel. So a few hundred feet away is another well that's as deep in parallel.

Two l's running parallel giant under the.

Two l's running parallel giant under the.

Two big pipes in the ground. Exactly how big the pipes themselves are seven inches across.

Two big pipes in the ground. Exactly how big the pipes themselves are seven inches across.

Not big long, but narrow long.

Not big long, but narrow long.

But narrow that I think about them like really big pipes that we've stuck into the ground.

But narrow that I think about them like really big pipes that we've stuck into the ground.

Yeah, okay, and it's just rock all the way through there. You're just going down and over in the rock.

Yeah, okay, and it's just rock all the way through there. You're just going down and over in the rock.

It's rock all the way through there. And importantly for us, it's hot rock.

It's rock all the way through there. And importantly for us, it's hot rock.

Okay, yes, hot, right, that's the key, both geo and thermal. Then what happens?

Okay, yes, hot, right, that's the key, both geo and thermal. Then what happens?

Okay, so let me tell you how this works. Now, we just have the pipes in place, and the pipes go through the rock. And what we end up doing to create the geothermal electricity, you know, because those rocks are hot, but the he just won't move on its own. What we do is we actually pump cold water down the injection well, and then that injection well has about one hundred different ports in that water can flow out and it flows across the rock over to the production well.

Okay, so let me tell you how this works. Now, we just have the pipes in place, and the pipes go through the rock. And what we end up doing to create the geothermal electricity, you know, because those rocks are hot, but the he just won't move on its own. What we do is we actually pump cold water down the injection well, and then that injection well has about one hundred different ports in that water can flow out and it flows across the rock over to the production well.

They're like holes in the side of the pipe basically yep, yeah, and the water goes out of the pipe. Now in my mind, it's just rock down there. Yeah, So like what happens? What, like what's going on there? Yeah?

They're like holes in the side of the pipe basically yep, yeah, and the water goes out of the pipe. Now in my mind, it's just rock down there. Yeah, So like what happens? What, like what's going on there? Yeah?

Water can always flow through rock. I mean, this is the same way that oil is produced or water wells work. Water can always flow through rock. In our case is we have actually created these fractures that go from one well to the other. So think about these giant cracks in the rock that now that water flows through. So it connects the injection well to the production well and its own isolated system. So it goes out the ports, flows through the rock hundreds of feet and in that hundreds of feet it heats up and the wells. We're doing it around four hundred degrees fahrenheit, So by the time that cold water reaches the other well, it's already heated up to about four hundred degrees fahrenheit. Even though it's four hundred degrees fahrenheit, we actually produce it still in a water in a liquid phase.

Water can always flow through rock. I mean, this is the same way that oil is produced or water wells work. Water can always flow through rock. In our case is we have actually created these fractures that go from one well to the other. So think about these giant cracks in the rock that now that water flows through. So it connects the injection well to the production well and its own isolated system. So it goes out the ports, flows through the rock hundreds of feet and in that hundreds of feet it heats up and the wells. We're doing it around four hundred degrees fahrenheit, So by the time that cold water reaches the other well, it's already heated up to about four hundred degrees fahrenheit. Even though it's four hundred degrees fahrenheit, we actually produce it still in a water in a liquid phase.

Wo, So it's highly pressure as water that can be four hundred degrees and not yet.

Wo, So it's highly pressure as water that can be four hundred degrees and not yet.

Steam exactly, and so then it gets to the surface it's hot water. And then what we do is we actually can pump that water over to the electric the power plant that we have at this site, and then we take the water and we run it through a heat exchanger, so that heat then goes into the power cycle, and then we collect the cold water after it's giving up all of its heat again and pump it right back down the injection well. So all we're doing is circulate in the same water over and over and over again. In the system. It goes down cold, heats up in the rock, comes up hot. We then gather that heat at the surface to create electricity, and then we pump the cold water back again, and we do that for decades and decades and decades. And the key here is we're getting this heat not by burning something, not by burning natural gas or coal, but by the natural heat of the earth itself. And so it's a zero emission technology.

Steam exactly, and so then it gets to the surface it's hot water. And then what we do is we actually can pump that water over to the electric the power plant that we have at this site, and then we take the water and we run it through a heat exchanger, so that heat then goes into the power cycle, and then we collect the cold water after it's giving up all of its heat again and pump it right back down the injection well. So all we're doing is circulate in the same water over and over and over again. In the system. It goes down cold, heats up in the rock, comes up hot. We then gather that heat at the surface to create electricity, and then we pump the cold water back again, and we do that for decades and decades and decades. And the key here is we're getting this heat not by burning something, not by burning natural gas or coal, but by the natural heat of the earth itself. And so it's a zero emission technology.

Great, and you have a sort of small version working now right.

Great, and you have a sort of small version working now right.

It's on the order of around two to three megawatts of production, and so it's not big when it comes to power infrastructure. But that's still enough electricity to power several thousand homes worth of electricity generation. But it really is just the beginning of what we are planning to do as we scale this technology.

It's on the order of around two to three megawatts of production, and so it's not big when it comes to power infrastructure. But that's still enough electricity to power several thousand homes worth of electricity generation. But it really is just the beginning of what we are planning to do as we scale this technology.

So if that's the beginning, what's the middle This summer?

So if that's the beginning, what's the middle This summer?

Actually, after we had these really successful results from our first ever pilot, we move forward to a site in southwest Utah and we broke the ground on our next project, which is going to be roughly one hundred times bigger than our first project.

Actually, after we had these really successful results from our first ever pilot, we move forward to a site in southwest Utah and we broke the ground on our next project, which is going to be roughly one hundred times bigger than our first project.

So how do you increase the power output by one hundred x? What do you got to do to do that?

So how do you increase the power output by one hundred x? What do you got to do to do that?

We drill more wells. Well one thing. The wells that we're going to drill now are going to be bigger, for one, and so we're going to get actually more power output for every well that we drill, and then we're going to drill more of them. And I tell you one thing that's exciting about this in terms of again a sustainability standpoint, one of the really attractive things about geothermal power is the actual land you need to do it is very minimal compared to almost any other type of energy resource.

We drill more wells. Well one thing. The wells that we're going to drill now are going to be bigger, for one, and so we're going to get actually more power output for every well that we drill, and then we're going to drill more of them. And I tell you one thing that's exciting about this in terms of again a sustainability standpoint, one of the really attractive things about geothermal power is the actual land you need to do it is very minimal compared to almost any other type of energy resource.

It's a low footprint on the ground, but a big footprint under the ground exactly.

It's a low footprint on the ground, but a big footprint under the ground exactly.

So it's a very you know, you can be at a very small pad that's only a few acres, but then underneath you are can be dozens of wells that extend, you know, across miles and miles.

So it's a very you know, you can be at a very small pad that's only a few acres, but then underneath you are can be dozens of wells that extend, you know, across miles and miles.

What are you worried about in that next project?

What are you worried about in that next project?

What are we worried about? You know, it's interesting, I'd say the first thing is policy support. You know, geothermal, as you noted when you were asking me how it works earlier, nobody knows about it. Nobody knows how it works. Before I read some random paper ten years ago, I didn't know about it. And as a result, it's sort of this forgotten renewable and we end up in a situation where again and again it gets left out of the same incentive schemes and government grants and supportive policy that almost any other energy resource you have. We're structuring to compete with technologies that get significantly more government funding and policy support.

What are we worried about? You know, it's interesting, I'd say the first thing is policy support. You know, geothermal, as you noted when you were asking me how it works earlier, nobody knows about it. Nobody knows how it works. Before I read some random paper ten years ago, I didn't know about it. And as a result, it's sort of this forgotten renewable and we end up in a situation where again and again it gets left out of the same incentive schemes and government grants and supportive policy that almost any other energy resource you have. We're structuring to compete with technologies that get significantly more government funding and policy support.

Tell me about price, Like this project you're working on in Utah, Like what's it going to cost to get electricity out of that project? And how does that compare to other sources? Of electricity.

Tell me about price, Like this project you're working on in Utah, Like what's it going to cost to get electricity out of that project? And how does that compare to other sources? Of electricity.

Yeah, so we'll end up investing well over a billion dollars in this project in southwest Utah. But it's a very sizable project. It's four hundred megawatts from a price standpoint. It's really interesting to think about the electric grid because everyone always thinks about the electric grid. Is electricity, it's a commodity. Well it sort of isn't It isn't. The thing about electricity is that when people want electricity, they want it now, right, and so the reliability is incredibly important for electricity. So it's one thing to produce electricity, it's an entirely different thing to produce electricity when it's needed. So whenever you look at how utilities construct portfolios, they find that you know, of course you want solar, and of course you want wind, and of course you want batteries because those are very low cost resources. But you also need stuff that works when those resources don't, and historically in this country that has been coal or natural gas. Increasingly, less coal and more natural gas. But if you want to do it both keep the lights on and do it in a sustainable and carbon free way, we need to find a substitute for that natural gas part of the portfolio as well. And so all this to say, whenever you look at a portfolio approach, geo thermal offers things that other energy resources don't. It's always there when you need it, and it doesn't produce carbon emissions.

Yeah, so we'll end up investing well over a billion dollars in this project in southwest Utah. But it's a very sizable project. It's four hundred megawatts from a price standpoint. It's really interesting to think about the electric grid because everyone always thinks about the electric grid. Is electricity, it's a commodity. Well it sort of isn't It isn't. The thing about electricity is that when people want electricity, they want it now, right, and so the reliability is incredibly important for electricity. So it's one thing to produce electricity, it's an entirely different thing to produce electricity when it's needed. So whenever you look at how utilities construct portfolios, they find that you know, of course you want solar, and of course you want wind, and of course you want batteries because those are very low cost resources. But you also need stuff that works when those resources don't, and historically in this country that has been coal or natural gas. Increasingly, less coal and more natural gas. But if you want to do it both keep the lights on and do it in a sustainable and carbon free way, we need to find a substitute for that natural gas part of the portfolio as well. And so all this to say, whenever you look at a portfolio approach, geo thermal offers things that other energy resources don't. It's always there when you need it, and it doesn't produce carbon emissions.

Yeah, so I feel like you're telling me it's more expensive, but you can use it when it's dark out and the wind isn't blowing. Is that what you're saying.

Yeah, so I feel like you're telling me it's more expensive, but you can use it when it's dark out and the wind isn't blowing. Is that what you're saying.

Yeah, I would say that's right. And what you find is that a little bit of what we sell. You know, if you are trying to figure out for your business, or for your city, or for your utility, you know what's the least cost way to provide electricity. It turns out buying twenty percent of your electricity from US, even at a premium price, ends up allowing you to have a much lower overall cost because it provides these really high valuable attributes to the grid.

Yeah, I would say that's right. And what you find is that a little bit of what we sell. You know, if you are trying to figure out for your business, or for your city, or for your utility, you know what's the least cost way to provide electricity. It turns out buying twenty percent of your electricity from US, even at a premium price, ends up allowing you to have a much lower overall cost because it provides these really high valuable attributes to the grid.

And you don't have to have like a gas peaker plant that you build and only use a few hours a year or whatever.

And you don't have to have like a gas peaker plant that you build and only use a few hours a year or whatever.

Exactly exactly what else.

Exactly exactly what else.

You worried about. You're about to build a billion dollar plant. Surely your worries cannot solely be outward facing.

You worried about. You're about to build a billion dollar plant. Surely your worries cannot solely be outward facing.

So we always joke about the fact that we really smashed two types of companies together. We're and so we hire a lot of people from renewable energy developers, and we hire a lot of people from oil on gas, and we smash us together in one big company to execute these goals.

So we always joke about the fact that we really smashed two types of companies together. We're and so we hire a lot of people from renewable energy developers, and we hire a lot of people from oil on gas, and we smash us together in one big company to execute these goals.

It's like the hippies and the roughnecks basically, that's right.

It's like the hippies and the roughnecks basically, that's right.

Yeah, that's what that's Yeah, you could you could say that maybe that'll be our next like holiday party theme.

Yeah, that's what that's Yeah, you could you could say that maybe that'll be our next like holiday party theme.

Or something like that. I like it.

Or something like that. I like it.

I like it, the hippies and the roughnecks, and we try to make it work. But the reason I say this is, yeah, we're about to we're in the process of doing a billion dollar plus project. But the nice thing is that everybody that we've hired to work on our team has done projects of that size and scale before.

I like it, the hippies and the roughnecks, and we try to make it work. But the reason I say this is, yeah, we're about to we're in the process of doing a billion dollar plus project. But the nice thing is that everybody that we've hired to work on our team has done projects of that size and scale before.

When you're going to turn on this big plant in Utah.

When you're going to turn on this big plant in Utah.

Twenty twenty six is the first time we'll be making electricity from this facility. So it's going to come online in a few phases. That full four hundred megawatts will be done by twenty twenty eight. We'll be producing our first electricity there. Really in just a couple of years. Looking at the date now, I guess it's almost twenty twenty four already, which I find hard to believe. So just around the corner, twenty twenty six, we'll be making first electricity from our facility in Utah.

Twenty twenty six is the first time we'll be making electricity from this facility. So it's going to come online in a few phases. That full four hundred megawatts will be done by twenty twenty eight. We'll be producing our first electricity there. Really in just a couple of years. Looking at the date now, I guess it's almost twenty twenty four already, which I find hard to believe. So just around the corner, twenty twenty six, we'll be making first electricity from our facility in Utah.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. I want to finish with the lightning round.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. I want to finish with the lightning round.

Okay.

Okay.

What's the best thing about working on an oil rig.

What's the best thing about working on an oil rig.

There's no substitute to actually physically seeing your progress when you work. You know, I grew up in the countryside and we would farm, and I worked on a rig and we do things, and I can tell you it's a little funny sometimes to do work and just have like a PowerPoint presentation and email at the end of the day to show it, and you know there's things going on out there, but you can't see it. To be able to start your shift and say, you know, when I started, we were seven thousand feet deep, and when I got off shift, we were eight thousand feet deep, and I can see the difference that we've made is something that like, you know, that's that's a really nice tangible thing about the work that I always appreciated.

There's no substitute to actually physically seeing your progress when you work. You know, I grew up in the countryside and we would farm, and I worked on a rig and we do things, and I can tell you it's a little funny sometimes to do work and just have like a PowerPoint presentation and email at the end of the day to show it, and you know there's things going on out there, but you can't see it. To be able to start your shift and say, you know, when I started, we were seven thousand feet deep, and when I got off shift, we were eight thousand feet deep, and I can see the difference that we've made is something that like, you know, that's that's a really nice tangible thing about the work that I always appreciated.

What's the worst thing about working on an oil rig.

What's the worst thing about working on an oil rig.

It's hard to be away from home. You know. You spend weeks out there sometimes without without coming home, and you end up building a great community of people that you work with, your co workers. But you know, there's no substitute for seeing your friends and family and sleeping in your whole, in your own bed.

It's hard to be away from home. You know. You spend weeks out there sometimes without without coming home, and you end up building a great community of people that you work with, your co workers. But you know, there's no substitute for seeing your friends and family and sleeping in your whole, in your own bed.

When I typed Fervo into my phone, I was just like making some notes when I was preparing for this interview. It auto corrected it to Gerbo. You have an idea, what's going on with that? What is Gerbo?

When I typed Fervo into my phone, I was just like making some notes when I was preparing for this interview. It auto corrected it to Gerbo. You have an idea, what's going on with that? What is Gerbo?

I don't know about Gerbo. I can tell you Fervo. We picked the name because it's a It's a word that means energetic and boiling, which is kind of what's our what our business is in what language? All of them really any Romance language.

I don't know about Gerbo. I can tell you Fervo. We picked the name because it's a It's a word that means energetic and boiling, which is kind of what's our what our business is in what language? All of them really any Romance language.

So it's like fervent. Does the word fervent come.

So it's like fervent. Does the word fervent come.

From the same exactly, fervent. We're in the business and making steam, so our name is steam.

From the same exactly, fervent. We're in the business and making steam, so our name is steam.

If you were not working on geothermal energy, what would you be working on?

If you were not working on geothermal energy, what would you be working on?

Good question. I am obsessive about urban design and transportation. I think you start working in energy, then you start working in climate and it becomes a foray to thinking, Wow, what we could design our cities so much better in a way that would be more sustainable and fun and and uh, you know, even though I live in Houston, Texas, which is famous for our driving, I bike to work every day. I live right by our light rail line, and I'm just obsessed with ways we can design our cities better. And if I wasn't doing for oh, I'd probably be doing that.

Good question. I am obsessive about urban design and transportation. I think you start working in energy, then you start working in climate and it becomes a foray to thinking, Wow, what we could design our cities so much better in a way that would be more sustainable and fun and and uh, you know, even though I live in Houston, Texas, which is famous for our driving, I bike to work every day. I live right by our light rail line, and I'm just obsessed with ways we can design our cities better. And if I wasn't doing for oh, I'd probably be doing that.

Okay, last one, what's one thing you understand about geology about the Earth that most people don't? Oh?

Okay, last one, what's one thing you understand about geology about the Earth that most people don't? Oh?

Ah, can I half answer your question?

Ah, can I half answer your question?

Oh? Yeah, anything you want.

Oh? Yeah, anything you want.

So here's a question. Here's the thing about geology not on the Earth that I've become obsessed with. Fascinating project that NASA ran a couple of years ago where they actually drilled into Mars and installed a seismometer in Mars, and as a result, we know way more about Mars geology than we did a couple of years ago, and they detected regular and frequent Mars quakes there, which were totally unexpected. And so just in the last couple of years, we've completely rethought our understanding of Mars geology, and it seems to be much more geologically active than we thought even two or three years ago, and I don't know, maybe to make a bit of a business proposition for it. Geologically active means that it probably has a higher thermal gradient than we've anticipated. So my team always has to remind me to focus on Earth first. But it's a funny thing to think about. You know, if we ever make it to Mars, geothermal might be the way to be the way to make our power workout there.

So here's a question. Here's the thing about geology not on the Earth that I've become obsessed with. Fascinating project that NASA ran a couple of years ago where they actually drilled into Mars and installed a seismometer in Mars, and as a result, we know way more about Mars geology than we did a couple of years ago, and they detected regular and frequent Mars quakes there, which were totally unexpected. And so just in the last couple of years, we've completely rethought our understanding of Mars geology, and it seems to be much more geologically active than we thought even two or three years ago, and I don't know, maybe to make a bit of a business proposition for it. Geologically active means that it probably has a higher thermal gradient than we've anticipated. So my team always has to remind me to focus on Earth first. But it's a funny thing to think about. You know, if we ever make it to Mars, geothermal might be the way to be the way to make our power workout there.

I love it. I love the fifty year vision. Well, it's great to talk with you. Thank you for your time.

I love it. I love the fifty year vision. Well, it's great to talk with you. Thank you for your time.

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.

Jim Latimer is the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. Today's show was produced by Joey Fishground and Edith Russilo. It was edited by Karen Chakerji and engineered by Sarah Bruguier. You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem. Mhm mm hmm.

Jim Latimer is the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. Today's show was produced by Joey Fishground and Edith Russilo. It was edited by Karen Chakerji and engineered by Sarah Bruguier. You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem. Mhm mm hmm.