Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob. Just a quick note that today's show is a collaboration with my old friends at Planet Money. It's kind of a follow up to last week's episode of What's Your Problem. It's about the century long quest to mass produce houses in a factory, so it does hit on that core What's Your Problem theme using technology to try to make things cheaper. I hope you'll like it. If you're a new listener who found What's Your Problem because of the Planet Money episode, let me say welcome. I'm delighted that you're here, and I hope you stick around. You can check out our back catalog, which has dozens of shows in it, and we'll be back next week with a new episode of What's Your Problem. Here's the show. This is Planet Money from NPR. Let's talk about houses in America. I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say houses in America are too expensive.

Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob. Just a quick note that today's show is a collaboration with my old friends at Planet Money. It's kind of a follow up to last week's episode of What's Your Problem. It's about the century long quest to mass produce houses in a factory, so it does hit on that core What's Your Problem theme using technology to try to make things cheaper. I hope you'll like it. If you're a new listener who found What's Your Problem because of the Planet Money episode, let me say welcome. I'm delighted that you're here, and I hope you stick around. You can check out our back catalog, which has dozens of shows in it, and we'll be back next week with a new episode of What's Your Problem. Here's the show. This is Planet Money from NPR. Let's talk about houses in America. I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say houses in America are too expensive.

Bold words from Jacob Goldstein coming in hot. And there are a lot of reasons for this, right, there's the zoning, there's land prices. But one reason we do not hear much about one of the things driving the cost of housing, the process of building houses is just really slow and inefficient and expensive.

Bold words from Jacob Goldstein coming in hot. And there are a lot of reasons for this, right, there's the zoning, there's land prices. But one reason we do not hear much about one of the things driving the cost of housing, the process of building houses is just really slow and inefficient and expensive.

There's this thing I heard a while back, years ago that really made me realize just how inefficient it is to build a house. And it goes like this, Imagine we built cars the same way we build houses. You'd have a meeting with the car designer where you tell them what kind of car you want, and they'd drop plans for your special car. Then you'd go to the city council, you'd get a permit. Then you'd go around town. You'd call different car builders, show them your blueprints, and they'd be like, yeah, sure, I can build you your special car. It'll cost I don't know, a million dollars be ready and say a year and a half.

There's this thing I heard a while back, years ago that really made me realize just how inefficient it is to build a house. And it goes like this, Imagine we built cars the same way we build houses. You'd have a meeting with the car designer where you tell them what kind of car you want, and they'd drop plans for your special car. Then you'd go to the city council, you'd get a permit. Then you'd go around town. You'd call different car builders, show them your blueprints, and they'd be like, yeah, sure, I can build you your special car. It'll cost I don't know, a million dollars be ready and say a year and a half.

I'm sure there are developers who build whatever, like a hundred homes at a time, but even building one hundred homes at a time is this wildly slow and expensive process.

I'm sure there are developers who build whatever, like a hundred homes at a time, but even building one hundred homes at a time is this wildly slow and expensive process.

It seems like we should be able to do better. We know how to make things cheaper. We've been doing it for hundreds of years. We make things cheaper by mass producing them in factories, just like we do with cars, and just like we do with lots of other things. So why don't we do that with houses. Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.

It seems like we should be able to do better. We know how to make things cheaper. We've been doing it for hundreds of years. We make things cheaper by mass producing them in factories, just like we do with cars, and just like we do with lots of other things. So why don't we do that with houses. Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.

I'm Jacob Goldstein's and I'm Nick found Jacob. So good to have you back, So good to see you.

I'm Jacob Goldstein's and I'm Nick found Jacob. So good to have you back, So good to see you.

Thanks man, I'm happy to be back at Planet Money.

Thanks man, I'm happy to be back at Planet Money.

We should say you now have another job. You now host this great show called What's Your Problem of a big fan. It's about people trying to solve problems out in the world, oftentimes with technology.

We should say you now have another job. You now host this great show called What's Your Problem of a big fan. It's about people trying to solve problems out in the world, oftentimes with technology.

Very good. Yes, thank you for listening and for What's Your Problem. I recently interviewed a homebuilder who is trying to do this thing we're talking about on the show today. He's trying to figure out how to build houses in a factory. And as I was preparing for that interview, I realized that there was actually a much bigger story here. It's a story that would be great for a Planet Money. It's this one hundred year story of people trying to do this thing, trying to figure out how to make houses cheaper by building them in factories.

Very good. Yes, thank you for listening and for What's Your Problem. I recently interviewed a homebuilder who is trying to do this thing we're talking about on the show today. He's trying to figure out how to build houses in a factory. And as I was preparing for that interview, I realized that there was actually a much bigger story here. It's a story that would be great for a Planet Money. It's this one hundred year story of people trying to do this thing, trying to figure out how to make houses cheaper by building them in factories.

Today on the show, the story of something that should have taken off by now. There'll be some flying saucer houses, there'll be some double wides.

Today on the show, the story of something that should have taken off by now. There'll be some flying saucer houses, there'll be some double wides.

And Nick, you get to do one of your favorite things, you get to go to a construction site swinging some hammus. Just a quick heads up, there is a mention of suicide in today's show.

And Nick, you get to do one of your favorite things, you get to go to a construction site swinging some hammus. Just a quick heads up, there is a mention of suicide in today's show.

This dream of using factories, using mass production to make houses cheaper and better goes back about one hundred years now, and in those hundred years there have been some spectacular failures and at least one surprising boom along the way.

This dream of using factories, using mass production to make houses cheaper and better goes back about one hundred years now, and in those hundred years there have been some spectacular failures and at least one surprising boom along the way.

So what we're gonna do on today's show is talk about three key people. There's an impractical genius, a very practical small businessman, and someone who is trying again right now, to mass produce houses in factories.

So what we're gonna do on today's show is talk about three key people. There's an impractical genius, a very practical small businessman, and someone who is trying again right now, to mass produce houses in factories.

The star of chapter one, that impractical genius is a man named Buckminster Fuller Bucky to his friends. Bucky was this famous weirdo. He was a designer, he was a futurist. He was beloved by Steve Jobs and other hippie adjacent tech types. Fortunately for us, someone just published a book about him.

The star of chapter one, that impractical genius is a man named Buckminster Fuller Bucky to his friends. Bucky was this famous weirdo. He was a designer, he was a futurist. He was beloved by Steve Jobs and other hippie adjacent tech types. Fortunately for us, someone just published a book about him.

My name is alec Nevilla Lee, and the book is Inventor of the Future, The Visionary Life of Buckminster Fuller.

My name is alec Nevilla Lee, and the book is Inventor of the Future, The Visionary Life of Buckminster Fuller.

And do you, by chance have any close connections to any of the current or former staff of Planet Money or the Indicator.

And do you, by chance have any close connections to any of the current or former staff of Planet Money or the Indicator.

Yes, yes, Well, we should make this very clear that this is not a NEPO situation that you were not aware that I was married to Indicator reporter and co host Whalen until after you began looking into buckminster Fuller.

Yes, yes, Well, we should make this very clear that this is not a NEPO situation that you were not aware that I was married to Indicator reporter and co host Whalen until after you began looking into buckminster Fuller.

It's true. Alex Has Buckminster Fuller's dream of making houses and factories starts in nineteen twenty seven. He's not famous yet. He's in his early thirties, living with his wife and his baby daughter in Chicago, and he's working for this company that sells construction materials. But then he gets fired. He's in a really bad place, and in the middle of all this, he walks to the edge of Lake Michigan and consider suicide.

It's true. Alex Has Buckminster Fuller's dream of making houses and factories starts in nineteen twenty seven. He's not famous yet. He's in his early thirties, living with his wife and his baby daughter in Chicago, and he's working for this company that sells construction materials. But then he gets fired. He's in a really bad place, and in the middle of all this, he walks to the edge of Lake Michigan and consider suicide.

He is going through this crisis, and the story is that while he's looking out of the water, he starts to ask himself a series of questions, starting with, you know, is there a God? Does God have a plan for me? You know, do I know what this plan is? And then he has this kind of blinding worship insight that says, you do not belong to yourself, You belong to the universe, and you know it is for you to figure out how you can be a benefit to all of mankind.

He is going through this crisis, and the story is that while he's looking out of the water, he starts to ask himself a series of questions, starting with, you know, is there a God? Does God have a plan for me? You know, do I know what this plan is? And then he has this kind of blinding worship insight that says, you do not belong to yourself, You belong to the universe, and you know it is for you to figure out how you can be a benefit to all of mankind.

And you know what Buckminster Fuller, vessel of the universe, decides to do to devote himself to the betterment of all mankind. It's the mass produced houses in a factory.

And you know what Buckminster Fuller, vessel of the universe, decides to do to devote himself to the betterment of all mankind. It's the mass produced houses in a factory.

So the next day, you know, he starts to focus very seriously on this housing idea. Okay, because that's his background. He's someone who has spent years in construction. You know, his father in law is a famous architect, and so you know, for him to make an impact, the obvious places start is housing.

So the next day, you know, he starts to focus very seriously on this housing idea. Okay, because that's his background. He's someone who has spent years in construction. You know, his father in law is a famous architect, and so you know, for him to make an impact, the obvious places start is housing.

And it wasn't just his background. Bucky thinks the time is right for this idea. It's after World War One. Construction costs are really high, and like today, it was really hard back then for a working class family to buy a house. And this was a.

And it wasn't just his background. Bucky thinks the time is right for this idea. It's after World War One. Construction costs are really high, and like today, it was really hard back then for a working class family to buy a house. And this was a.

Time when people really believed that technological progress could make life better. Radio is new. It's the dawn of mass consumer goods. People are starting to get things like refrigerators and washing machines and cars.

Time when people really believed that technological progress could make life better. Radio is new. It's the dawn of mass consumer goods. People are starting to get things like refrigerators and washing machines and cars.

Right this is about twenty years after Henry Ford had rolled out the Model T that was the first car that was affordable to the masses, and the reason it was affordable was because it was mass produced on the assembly line.

Right this is about twenty years after Henry Ford had rolled out the Model T that was the first car that was affordable to the masses, and the reason it was affordable was because it was mass produced on the assembly line.

The car was a really important stot for Bucky. That thing I did at the top of the show about you know, imagine we built cars the way we build houses. I got that from him. I got that from Bucky.

The car was a really important stot for Bucky. That thing I did at the top of the show about you know, imagine we built cars the way we build houses. I got that from him. I got that from Bucky.

Shout out to Bucky. So Bucky decides, I'm gonna build houses the way we build cars. And crucially, this means not just building regular style houses in a factory. It means rethinking from scratch what it means to build a house.

Shout out to Bucky. So Bucky decides, I'm gonna build houses the way we build cars. And crucially, this means not just building regular style houses in a factory. It means rethinking from scratch what it means to build a house.

So he has this big idea and he goes out and he starts pitching it. He calls it the Dimaxian House, and he starts to get popular as this sort of visionary, big idea guy. He's given lectures. If you were around today, he would definitely be big into ted talks. But one thing he is not doing building houses because to build these factory built houses, he needs a factory and he doesn't have one.

So he has this big idea and he goes out and he starts pitching it. He calls it the Dimaxian House, and he starts to get popular as this sort of visionary, big idea guy. He's given lectures. If you were around today, he would definitely be big into ted talks. But one thing he is not doing building houses because to build these factory built houses, he needs a factory and he doesn't have one.

And then finally, fifteen years after he first comes up with the idea, he gets his big chance. It's nineteen forty four. US factories have been churning out planes and ships and jeeps to fight World War Two, but now the war is starting to wind down.

And then finally, fifteen years after he first comes up with the idea, he gets his big chance. It's nineteen forty four. US factories have been churning out planes and ships and jeeps to fight World War Two, but now the war is starting to wind down.

And one of the questions as the war starts to wind down, is what are we going to do with all of this industrial capacity that we've built up. And Fuller, who's kind of in the right place at the right time, says, well, you know, I have this idea for industrialized housing, and it makes a lot of sense for us just to convert to these aircraft plans to building houses because it will keep the plants operational, people will keep their jobs, and in theory, we're going to have a huge demand for post war housing after all these veterans come home.

And one of the questions as the war starts to wind down, is what are we going to do with all of this industrial capacity that we've built up. And Fuller, who's kind of in the right place at the right time, says, well, you know, I have this idea for industrialized housing, and it makes a lot of sense for us just to convert to these aircraft plans to building houses because it will keep the plants operational, people will keep their jobs, and in theory, we're going to have a huge demand for post war housing after all these veterans come home.

So Bucky convinces this airplane company in Kansas to let him use their factory to build a prototype of the house he's been dreaming of for years, And an airplane factory was actually a pretty good place to do it because his factory optimized house was nothing like a regular house.

So Bucky convinces this airplane company in Kansas to let him use their factory to build a prototype of the house he's been dreaming of for years, And an airplane factory was actually a pretty good place to do it because his factory optimized house was nothing like a regular house.

So it looks like a flying saucer, all right, it's kind of the best way to describe it. It's, you know, bare aluminum, so it's this shiny metal house and there's a ring of glass windows.

So it looks like a flying saucer, all right, it's kind of the best way to describe it. It's, you know, bare aluminum, so it's this shiny metal house and there's a ring of glass windows.

To be clear, this is a round house.

To be clear, this is a round house.

And you go inside and the floor is very springy because of the way the house is engineered. All these rooms are kind of like wedge shaped, and you know, he has these what he calls evolving shelves, which are shelves that are built into the walls that rotate the touch of.

And you go inside and the floor is very springy because of the way the house is engineered. All these rooms are kind of like wedge shaped, and you know, he has these what he calls evolving shelves, which are shelves that are built into the walls that rotate the touch of.

Buttons, basically the Jetson's house.

Buttons, basically the Jetson's house.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's funny because it was always like the House of the future, right, Like, even from early on, people are saying, oh, you know, Fuller is designing the House of the future, which I think kind of annoyed him at first because he was trying to do it for real.

Yeah, I mean it's funny because it was always like the House of the future, right, Like, even from early on, people are saying, oh, you know, Fuller is designing the House of the future, which I think kind of annoyed him at first because he was trying to do it for real.

In the present, Bucky finally has a factory. He makes these prototypes. World War Two is over, the gis are coming home. So what happens next?

In the present, Bucky finally has a factory. He makes these prototypes. World War Two is over, the gis are coming home. So what happens next?

So nothing ever happens, right, The company does not go into mass production.

So nothing ever happens, right, The company does not go into mass production.

Yeah, Bucky's dream, the dream of the mass produced factory house does not come true. And Alex says there are a few reasons for this. For one, Bucky was just kind of a pain to work with, not a great guy to run a big company.

Yeah, Bucky's dream, the dream of the mass produced factory house does not come true. And Alex says there are a few reasons for this. For one, Bucky was just kind of a pain to work with, not a great guy to run a big company.

Another reason, Bucky came up with this idea back in the nineteen twenties. But now it's the mid nineteen forties, and unusually in American history, This is a time when a lot of working class people actually could afford houses. Congress subsidized mortgages for returning troops, and developers were starting to build these cheap housing developments.

Another reason, Bucky came up with this idea back in the nineteen twenties. But now it's the mid nineteen forties, and unusually in American history, This is a time when a lot of working class people actually could afford houses. Congress subsidized mortgages for returning troops, and developers were starting to build these cheap housing developments.

And the last reason Bucky's factory built homes went nowhere maybe the most obvious, but it's worth pointing out. People do not want to live in a spaceship. These were weird ass round metal houses.

And the last reason Bucky's factory built homes went nowhere maybe the most obvious, but it's worth pointing out. People do not want to live in a spaceship. These were weird ass round metal houses.

This is kind of the tickaway here. It's like Fuller really said, you know, people will like what I tell them to like. He expects people to kind of change their lifestyle to fit this idealized house design that he has come up.

This is kind of the tickaway here. It's like Fuller really said, you know, people will like what I tell them to like. He expects people to kind of change their lifestyle to fit this idealized house design that he has come up.

With, and people didn't want to do that.

With, and people didn't want to do that.

Side note, we actually haven't mentioned the thing that Bucky is best known for today, the geodesic dome like Spaceship Earth at Epcot at disney World, and also the dome house that my hippie friends in the Santa Cruz Mountains used to live in.

Side note, we actually haven't mentioned the thing that Bucky is best known for today, the geodesic dome like Spaceship Earth at Epcot at disney World, and also the dome house that my hippie friends in the Santa Cruz Mountains used to live in.

Everybody has hippie friends who live in a domehouse in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Anyway, you didn't need a factory to make one of these domes. It was a really simple design, very DIY friendly, but it didn't work that well.

Everybody has hippie friends who live in a domehouse in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Anyway, you didn't need a factory to make one of these domes. It was a really simple design, very DIY friendly, but it didn't work that well.

So Fill actually lived in a dome house and it was so leaky that apparently, you know, people would see him at home like reading the newspaper with an umbrella over his head and like a flashlight clutch between his teeth. You know, the you know, there's a reason why we don't mostly live in domes today.

So Fill actually lived in a dome house and it was so leaky that apparently, you know, people would see him at home like reading the newspaper with an umbrella over his head and like a flashlight clutch between his teeth. You know, the you know, there's a reason why we don't mostly live in domes today.

Final recap from Bucky timing is everything. Don't launch your factory built house at the one moment when working class people can afford traditional houses. And if you're gonna build houses in a factory, don't make them too weird. Make them like normal houses that people want to live in.

Final recap from Bucky timing is everything. Don't launch your factory built house at the one moment when working class people can afford traditional houses. And if you're gonna build houses in a factory, don't make them too weird. Make them like normal houses that people want to live in.

Which brings us to chapter two.

Which brings us to chapter two.

Okay, for the title of this chapter, I'm going to count to three, and we're both going to say our favorite name for the chapter one two three Stuck inside a mobile home field advantage with the zoning blues again is a Dylan reference this section. Yes, the section is about mobile homes and the mobile homes story, which is the next big moment for factory built homes. It doesn't happen through some grandiose, weirdo vision like the one Bucky had. It builds gradually and it comes sort of from the bottom up.

Okay, for the title of this chapter, I'm going to count to three, and we're both going to say our favorite name for the chapter one two three Stuck inside a mobile home field advantage with the zoning blues again is a Dylan reference this section. Yes, the section is about mobile homes and the mobile homes story, which is the next big moment for factory built homes. It doesn't happen through some grandiose, weirdo vision like the one Bucky had. It builds gradually and it comes sort of from the bottom up.

Yeah. Our guide to this chapter is Brian Potter. He actually worked for a factory built construction company that had its own boom and bust.

Yeah. Our guide to this chapter is Brian Potter. He actually worked for a factory built construction company that had its own boom and bust.

They raised several billion dollars in venture capital and then went bankrupt.

They raised several billion dollars in venture capital and then went bankrupt.

Now he writes a newsletter that we love. It's called Construction Physics, and it's all about this thing that we're talking about in the show today. It's about productivity and construction.

Now he writes a newsletter that we love. It's called Construction Physics, and it's all about this thing that we're talking about in the show today. It's about productivity and construction.

Brian has spent a long time looking back at the history of factory built homes, and he told us about this guy, Elmer Frye, kind of the anti Bucky, not a visionary, not touring the country giving lectures. He had a company that made camping trailers. There were a bunch of companies that made these, and some people did live in them, but mostly they were for towing around. And then one day, in the early nineteen fifties, Elmer heard from one of his customers.

Brian has spent a long time looking back at the history of factory built homes, and he told us about this guy, Elmer Frye, kind of the anti Bucky, not a visionary, not touring the country giving lectures. He had a company that made camping trailers. There were a bunch of companies that made these, and some people did live in them, but mostly they were for towing around. And then one day, in the early nineteen fifties, Elmer heard from one of his customers.

One day he got a request from somebody who wanted a ten foot wide trailer, and fry said, well, that's two wide to legally go on the roads. And the guy said, oh, that's okay, I'm not going to move it once I have it. I'll just call it a construction trailer and permit it like that, and Fry said okay, and then built it for him, and then he started building more of them, and they just turned out to be incredibly popular.

One day he got a request from somebody who wanted a ten foot wide trailer, and fry said, well, that's two wide to legally go on the roads. And the guy said, oh, that's okay, I'm not going to move it once I have it. I'll just call it a construction trailer and permit it like that, and Fry said okay, and then built it for him, and then he started building more of them, and they just turned out to be incredibly popular.

And then the rest was history.

And then the rest was history.

The rest was history. The increase in width and mobile homes went on from there.

The rest was history. The increase in width and mobile homes went on from there.

People loved it. Pretty Soon everybody was ordering these extra wide trailers a few feet at a time. Those trailers people towed behind their car were becoming the mobile homes that we know today.

People loved it. Pretty Soon everybody was ordering these extra wide trailers a few feet at a time. Those trailers people towed behind their car were becoming the mobile homes that we know today.

Pretty soon, after the ten wide, you have the twelve wide, and then the fourteen wide, and then yeah, the double wide, which is two modules that get stuck together.

Pretty soon, after the ten wide, you have the twelve wide, and then the fourteen wide, and then yeah, the double wide, which is two modules that get stuck together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So right in the fifties, that's pretty much when that shift started.

So right in the fifties, that's pretty much when that shift started.

They were not building weird round spaceship houses of the future with push buttonshelves. They were building rectangular, cheap houses. Also, the timing was better that post World War two moment when so many ordinary people could afford traditional houses. That moment passed, so lots of people started buying these new, cheaper mobile homes. There was a mobile home boom.

They were not building weird round spaceship houses of the future with push buttonshelves. They were building rectangular, cheap houses. Also, the timing was better that post World War two moment when so many ordinary people could afford traditional houses. That moment passed, so lots of people started buying these new, cheaper mobile homes. There was a mobile home boom.

And companies also started building bigger, full sized houses and factories. By nineteen seventy mobile homes and those other factory built homes made up roughly half of newly built single family homes in America.

And companies also started building bigger, full sized houses and factories. By nineteen seventy mobile homes and those other factory built homes made up roughly half of newly built single family homes in America.

Found and I'm going to say that again because it was so surprising to me when I learned it. It was why I wanted to do this whole chapter. In nineteen seventy one in two newly built single family homes in America was built in a factory.

Found and I'm going to say that again because it was so surprising to me when I learned it. It was why I wanted to do this whole chapter. In nineteen seventy one in two newly built single family homes in America was built in a factory.

The industry is so large and expanding so rapidly that at one point in the late sixties or early seventies, I think you know, three of the top ten most profitable companies in the US were mobile home companies. Uh, the largest home builder in the US is a mobile home company.

The industry is so large and expanding so rapidly that at one point in the late sixties or early seventies, I think you know, three of the top ten most profitable companies in the US were mobile home companies. Uh, the largest home builder in the US is a mobile home company.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It becomes just an enormous industry relatively quickly.

It becomes just an enormous industry relatively quickly.

This was it. This was the moment when lots of affordable homes were made in factories.

This was it. This was the moment when lots of affordable homes were made in factories.

But it didn't last. There was a recession that started in nineteen seventy three, and a bunch of the mobile home manufacturers went out of business. After that, the industry never really got back to where it had been in the early seventies. Today, only around ten percent of new single family homes are made in factories.

But it didn't last. There was a recession that started in nineteen seventy three, and a bunch of the mobile home manufacturers went out of business. After that, the industry never really got back to where it had been in the early seventies. Today, only around ten percent of new single family homes are made in factories.

So the question is why what happened? Brian points to a few things. For one, middle class homeowners, the classic villains of affordable housing stories didn't want mobile homes in their neighborhoods. Mobile homes were targeted at low income people. There was a stigma attached to the way mobile homes looked, and so as a result, there was this wave of zoning rules that forced mobile homes out of town and into mobile home parks.

So the question is why what happened? Brian points to a few things. For one, middle class homeowners, the classic villains of affordable housing stories didn't want mobile homes in their neighborhoods. Mobile homes were targeted at low income people. There was a stigma attached to the way mobile homes looked, and so as a result, there was this wave of zoning rules that forced mobile homes out of town and into mobile home parks.

But it wasn't just zoning, and in fact, Brian thinks there was a deeper problem, a problem that goes to the big law, long term question, why don't we build more houses and factories? Brian says, building houses in factories is just a fundamentally hard business. For one thing, home construction is very cyclical, and traditional contractors can deal with cyclical downturns by laying off workers, riding things out, and then hiring people back and starting to build again when the economy comes back.

But it wasn't just zoning, and in fact, Brian thinks there was a deeper problem, a problem that goes to the big law, long term question, why don't we build more houses and factories? Brian says, building houses in factories is just a fundamentally hard business. For one thing, home construction is very cyclical, and traditional contractors can deal with cyclical downturns by laying off workers, riding things out, and then hiring people back and starting to build again when the economy comes back.

But companies building homes and factories they have this big fixed cost. They have the factory where they build the homes, and they have to pay for those factories. Whether the housing market is booming or crashing.

But companies building homes and factories they have this big fixed cost. They have the factory where they build the homes, and they have to pay for those factories. Whether the housing market is booming or crashing.

So factory built housing tends to have a tough time in downturns. You see a lot of these operations just go out of business.

So factory built housing tends to have a tough time in downturns. You see a lot of these operations just go out of business.

This makes sense as far as it goes. But when Brian told us this, I asked him, what about all the other industries that have to keep factories open and downturns. It's not like, say, car companies go bankrupt every time there's a recession.

This makes sense as far as it goes. But when Brian told us this, I asked him, what about all the other industries that have to keep factories open and downturns. It's not like, say, car companies go bankrupt every time there's a recession.

Yeah, Brian said, In the car business, doing mass production in a factory is it's just so much more efficient than the alternative. Think of Henry Ford's assembly line. It was so much better than building bespoke cars one by one in some workshop.

Yeah, Brian said, In the car business, doing mass production in a factory is it's just so much more efficient than the alternative. Think of Henry Ford's assembly line. It was so much better than building bespoke cars one by one in some workshop.

On the other hand, building mobile homes in factories, yeah it was more efficient than building houses on site. But it wasn't that much more efficient. It wasn't enough more efficient to ride out the inevitable downturns in housing. Brian says, once you paid to attach the mobile home to the back of a truck and haul it down the highway to wherever it was going and got it all set up, you lost a lot of the gains you got from building it in the factory in the first place.

On the other hand, building mobile homes in factories, yeah it was more efficient than building houses on site. But it wasn't that much more efficient. It wasn't enough more efficient to ride out the inevitable downturns in housing. Brian says, once you paid to attach the mobile home to the back of a truck and haul it down the highway to wherever it was going and got it all set up, you lost a lot of the gains you got from building it in the factory in the first place.

This is a really hard problem that in the end, mobile homes couldn't entirely solve. And for that matter, no one in this whole history of factory built housing has been able to crack.

This is a really hard problem that in the end, mobile homes couldn't entirely solve. And for that matter, no one in this whole history of factory built housing has been able to crack.

It is very, very hard to be the Henry Ford of housing, to be able to produce things in a factory that's so much cheaper that it just completely changes the way we build it and the way. You can't go back to the previous way. That is very hard to do, and nobody has managed to do it yet.

It is very, very hard to be the Henry Ford of housing, to be able to produce things in a factory that's so much cheaper that it just completely changes the way we build it and the way. You can't go back to the previous way. That is very hard to do, and nobody has managed to do it yet.

Nobody has managed to do it yet yet. Yes, they are still trying, and we'll hear about that after the break.

Nobody has managed to do it yet yet. Yes, they are still trying, and we'll hear about that after the break.

I grew up spending a lot of time on construction sites. My dad was a contractor, mostly remodeling kitchens and bathrooms. I used to work at a cabinet factory. It helped with a lot of kitchen installs. I am the reigning world champion of Belt Sander Racing Modified Division. Don't try this at home, it's pretty dangerous. And so it was a great delight that for this story I got to do something that's very familiar to me that I love. I got to go visit a job site and put my microphone very close to power Tools.

I grew up spending a lot of time on construction sites. My dad was a contractor, mostly remodeling kitchens and bathrooms. I used to work at a cabinet factory. It helped with a lot of kitchen installs. I am the reigning world champion of Belt Sander Racing Modified Division. Don't try this at home, it's pretty dangerous. And so it was a great delight that for this story I got to do something that's very familiar to me that I love. I got to go visit a job site and put my microphone very close to power Tools.

Final chapter, Chapter three, working title, The work goes on, the cause endurers, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die.

Final chapter, Chapter three, working title, The work goes on, the cause endurers, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die.

So there are a few companies out there right now trying new ways to solve the factory built house problem.

So there are a few companies out there right now trying new ways to solve the factory built house problem.

One of them is called Cover. I interviewed the founder, Alexis Revas, for this podcast I host What's Your Problem? And Nick, you got to go meet him at a job site in La where they were putting together one of these houses.

One of them is called Cover. I interviewed the founder, Alexis Revas, for this podcast I host What's Your Problem? And Nick, you got to go meet him at a job site in La where they were putting together one of these houses.

Hey, guys, how's it good? Alexis niet.

Hey, guys, how's it good? Alexis niet.

Alexis is trying to figure out how to have the kind of success that the mobile home companies had back in the early seventies, but without running into the same problems. And there are some big differences between what he's doing and what the mobile home companies were doing. For one, he is not building cheap homes, not at all. They're really expensive, at least for now.

Alexis is trying to figure out how to have the kind of success that the mobile home companies had back in the early seventies, but without running into the same problems. And there are some big differences between what he's doing and what the mobile home companies were doing. For one, he is not building cheap homes, not at all. They're really expensive, at least for now.

All right, So what are we looking at here? So this is a living area, kitchen area, a nice open kitchen area, kitchen.

All right, So what are we looking at here? So this is a living area, kitchen area, a nice open kitchen area, kitchen.

With a wide Florida ceiling window sliding.

With a wide Florida ceiling window sliding.

Alexis studied architecture in college and he fell in love with this big idea of building houses in factory, and he discovered that there is this relatively small industry that is building homes in factories, not mobile homes, full size houses.

Alexis studied architecture in college and he fell in love with this big idea of building houses in factory, and he discovered that there is this relatively small industry that is building homes in factories, not mobile homes, full size houses.

So Alexis went to intern for one of those companies, and what he saw there was that they're basically just building traditional homes in the factory, then moving them on these giant flatbed trucks and lifting them into place with giant cranes, and then doing lots of work to finish them on site. And he realized the same thing Brian Potter realized. When you do all that, the house doesn't wind up being that much cheaper than a traditional house. You don't get those sweet sweet productivity gains from factory based mass production.

So Alexis went to intern for one of those companies, and what he saw there was that they're basically just building traditional homes in the factory, then moving them on these giant flatbed trucks and lifting them into place with giant cranes, and then doing lots of work to finish them on site. And he realized the same thing Brian Potter realized. When you do all that, the house doesn't wind up being that much cheaper than a traditional house. You don't get those sweet sweet productivity gains from factory based mass production.

So Alexis starts this new company and their whole thing is sort of trying to do what Buckminster Fuller tried to do one hundred years ago. They want to rethink factory construction from the ground up.

So Alexis starts this new company and their whole thing is sort of trying to do what Buckminster Fuller tried to do one hundred years ago. They want to rethink factory construction from the ground up.

And I could see this at the job site. It was very different from the many that I'd been on in my life. One difference there's no wood framing, it's all steel studs, and also the ceiling is steel. I've never seen that on a job site before steel ceiling. Yeah, people people who.

And I could see this at the job site. It was very different from the many that I'd been on in my life. One difference there's no wood framing, it's all steel studs, and also the ceiling is steel. I've never seen that on a job site before steel ceiling. Yeah, people people who.

Are familiar with conventional construction, they kind of they kind of walk into here and they're like, this is this is some you know, alien alien system. Yeah, it's very unusual.

Are familiar with conventional construction, they kind of they kind of walk into here and they're like, this is this is some you know, alien alien system. Yeah, it's very unusual.

To be clear, this is gonna look like a nice house. It's gonna look like something you'd see in an architectural magazine. But it isn't built like most houses. It's built mostly in the factory, one panel at a time.

To be clear, this is gonna look like a nice house. It's gonna look like something you'd see in an architectural magazine. But it isn't built like most houses. It's built mostly in the factory, one panel at a time.

As wall panels, floor panels, ceiling panels, so you can think of it like life sized Lego blocks. And then we take those panels, we deliver them to site on a regular truck, no big crane, no big equipment, and then we assemble them into the.

As wall panels, floor panels, ceiling panels, so you can think of it like life sized Lego blocks. And then we take those panels, we deliver them to site on a regular truck, no big crane, no big equipment, and then we assemble them into the.

Homes those panels or flat It's not like shipping you know, half a house that you have to put on the back of a truck and install with the crane. So they solve a lot of that expensive to ship transportation problem that other factory built houses have.

Homes those panels or flat It's not like shipping you know, half a house that you have to put on the back of a truck and install with the crane. So they solve a lot of that expensive to ship transportation problem that other factory built houses have.

Alexis's company isn't the first to build houses with prefab panels, but they're trying to build a lot into those panels before they leave the factory. Alexis gets down on his knee and shows me an interior panel that already has wiring built into it.

Alexis's company isn't the first to build houses with prefab panels, but they're trying to build a lot into those panels before they leave the factory. Alexis gets down on his knee and shows me an interior panel that already has wiring built into it.

Is that you've got the Uh, you know what I'm doing here is I'm pulling out one of the electrical connections. But you can see here there's an electrical connection. This comes pre wired from the factory, and then there's this quick connect that you just plug in, uh, and then that makes the electrical connection.

Is that you've got the Uh, you know what I'm doing here is I'm pulling out one of the electrical connections. But you can see here there's an electrical connection. This comes pre wired from the factory, and then there's this quick connect that you just plug in, uh, and then that makes the electrical connection.

So this is one way they're trying to make home building more efficient. Rather than spend a few days wiring up the house on site, they pre cut the wires at the factory to the right legs, They put connectors on them, and they install them in some of the panels, and then when they get to the site, they just click the connectors together. Yep, I've never heard of that before.

So this is one way they're trying to make home building more efficient. Rather than spend a few days wiring up the house on site, they pre cut the wires at the factory to the right legs, They put connectors on them, and they install them in some of the panels, and then when they get to the site, they just click the connectors together. Yep, I've never heard of that before.

Yeah, I mean the idea is and this is so it's very unusual to do this kind of thing in construction. But in the automotive world, for example, right, it's called an electrical harness. You've got you've got the you know, there's there's hundreds of sensors in a car, right, and they have these these all these wires pre made in a factory shipped to you know, the main line and they have these connectors on the end, and then you know, you just plug it all together. So it's taking kind of an automotive approach to electrical and bringing that to home building.

Yeah, I mean the idea is and this is so it's very unusual to do this kind of thing in construction. But in the automotive world, for example, right, it's called an electrical harness. You've got you've got the you know, there's there's hundreds of sensors in a car, right, and they have these these all these wires pre made in a factory shipped to you know, the main line and they have these connectors on the end, and then you know, you just plug it all together. So it's taking kind of an automotive approach to electrical and bringing that to home building.

Again with the automotive industry, but this time it's not just a metaphor. Alexis company hired people from Tesla and other car companies to help them figure out mass production, but they have not really figured it out yet. They're still making houses one by one, which is part of the reason the houses they're selling cost a lot.

Again with the automotive industry, but this time it's not just a metaphor. Alexis company hired people from Tesla and other car companies to help them figure out mass production, but they have not really figured it out yet. They're still making houses one by one, which is part of the reason the houses they're selling cost a lot.

Yeah, the house I saw being built is a two bad, two bath, fancy house with high end appliances, and it's going to cost more than four hundred thousand dollars, a lot of money.

Yeah, the house I saw being built is a two bad, two bath, fancy house with high end appliances, and it's going to cost more than four hundred thousand dollars, a lot of money.

They are not solving the housing affordability crisis with this house.

They are not solving the housing affordability crisis with this house.

The classic home depot bucket, you haven't innovated on that yet.

The classic home depot bucket, you haven't innovated on that yet.

No, We've got to prioritize my bucket.

No, We've got to prioritize my bucket.

What shouldname? My name is? Gus? When I was on the job site, I got to spend a little time with Gus Contreras. What's your title?

What shouldname? My name is? Gus? When I was on the job site, I got to spend a little time with Gus Contreras. What's your title?

Is my title?

Is my title?

Now?

Now?

Are are you like the everything is my title?

Are are you like the everything is my title?

Magician?

Magician?

Gus was installing the bathroom, and talking with him helped me understand how this company might possibly be able to bring down the still very high costs of their houses. Four minutes and you guys already have the shower installed.

Gus was installing the bathroom, and talking with him helped me understand how this company might possibly be able to bring down the still very high costs of their houses. Four minutes and you guys already have the shower installed.

Yeah, four minutes was fast, but it still takes Gus and five other experienced construction workers about a month to put the house together on site, and that month of skilled work makes the house cost more.

Yeah, four minutes was fast, but it still takes Gus and five other experienced construction workers about a month to put the house together on site, and that month of skilled work makes the house cost more.

So maybe the most important part of Gus's job is figuring out how to make it faster and easier to put together these houses. Gus says, plumbing the bathroom used to take like a whole day. Now it's just thirty minutes. And that's because Gus and his coworkers were constantly sending feedback to engineers at HQ, saying, Hey, try tweaking this one little thing at the factory before you ship it to us. Are you taking meetings from inside these these buildings?

So maybe the most important part of Gus's job is figuring out how to make it faster and easier to put together these houses. Gus says, plumbing the bathroom used to take like a whole day. Now it's just thirty minutes. And that's because Gus and his coworkers were constantly sending feedback to engineers at HQ, saying, Hey, try tweaking this one little thing at the factory before you ship it to us. Are you taking meetings from inside these these buildings?

Baby zoom zoom, Google Meet or whatever I can log into.

Baby zoom zoom, Google Meet or whatever I can log into.

Do you know what I mean, We'll do it.

Do you know what I mean, We'll do it.

That's that's pretty rare for the construction industry, being on a zoom at a job site.

That's that's pretty rare for the construction industry, being on a zoom at a job site.

Yeah, I mean I used to get yell that from being on my phone on praise for it.

Yeah, I mean I used to get yell that from being on my phone on praise for it.

So, I mean, this is it. One zoom call from Gus at a time. This is the thing happening. They're trying to reduce the need for expensive, time consuming skilled labor of people like Gus, trying to mass produce the panels in the factory so that when those panels get to the job site, it doesn't take a team of skilled workers a month to put it all together. The goal is to make it so easy that almost anybody can put together a house in a few weeks. Think of it like a really big piece of Ikea furniture. Not quite that easy and somewhat fancier, but ikia s that is the dream anyway.

So, I mean, this is it. One zoom call from Gus at a time. This is the thing happening. They're trying to reduce the need for expensive, time consuming skilled labor of people like Gus, trying to mass produce the panels in the factory so that when those panels get to the job site, it doesn't take a team of skilled workers a month to put it all together. The goal is to make it so easy that almost anybody can put together a house in a few weeks. Think of it like a really big piece of Ikea furniture. Not quite that easy and somewhat fancier, but ikia s that is the dream anyway.

This is the way we make things cheaper in the world. We figure out how to mass produce them in factories. We've done it over and over again for a long time now, and yet after one hundred years of trying, we still can't do it with houses and Jacob I have listened to the whole Alexis interview. There is a lot more about his backstory and the nitty gritty of what he needs to figure out to make own instruction really cheap. His goal, it's a great interview. It's a great show. It's called What's Your Problem with Jacob golds And you can find it where you can.

This is the way we make things cheaper in the world. We figure out how to mass produce them in factories. We've done it over and over again for a long time now, and yet after one hundred years of trying, we still can't do it with houses and Jacob I have listened to the whole Alexis interview. There is a lot more about his backstory and the nitty gritty of what he needs to figure out to make own instruction really cheap. His goal, it's a great interview. It's a great show. It's called What's Your Problem with Jacob golds And you can find it where you can.

Find it wherever. Thanks for the shout out, Mick. We'd like to thank James Schmidt's of the Minneapolis Fed, who talked to us about mobile homes. Also the late Ted Kennedy. I poached a line from one of his speeches for the title of chapter three. Thanks also to Emma Peasley for producing today's show, Molly Messick for editing the show, Sierra Juadez for fact checking it, and Brian Jarbo for engineering.

Find it wherever. Thanks for the shout out, Mick. We'd like to thank James Schmidt's of the Minneapolis Fed, who talked to us about mobile homes. Also the late Ted Kennedy. I poached a line from one of his speeches for the title of chapter three. Thanks also to Emma Peasley for producing today's show, Molly Messick for editing the show, Sierra Juadez for fact checking it, and Brian Jarbo for engineering.

If you or someone you know might be considering suicide or is in a crisis, you can call or text nine to eight eight to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. That's nine eight eight. I'm Nick Fountain, I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is NPR.

If you or someone you know might be considering suicide or is in a crisis, you can call or text nine to eight eight to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. That's nine eight eight. I'm Nick Fountain, I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is NPR.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for listening.