Pushkin. America's power grid is arguably the largest machine ever built in the history of the world. Thousands of power plants, millions of miles of power lines, all delivering exactly as much power as everybody wants, almost all of the time. Now, in order to become more efficient and to move away from fossil fuel, that machine has to be completely rebuilt. The other day I talked to one of the people who's rebuilding it. You're wearing a bright yellow vet, like a neon yellow work vest, got a little American flag in the corner. So where are you right now that you need that vest?

Pushkin. America's power grid is arguably the largest machine ever built in the history of the world. Thousands of power plants, millions of miles of power lines, all delivering exactly as much power as everybody wants, almost all of the time. Now, in order to become more efficient and to move away from fossil fuel, that machine has to be completely rebuilt. The other day I talked to one of the people who's rebuilding it. You're wearing a bright yellow vet, like a neon yellow work vest, got a little American flag in the corner. So where are you right now that you need that vest?

Well, I'm in the factory and we're in West Virginia. It's about five hundred thousand square feet under roof that we have right now, and the activity under that roof is everything from cell assembly. So we're operating that line to finish in construction of the building.

Well, I'm in the factory and we're in West Virginia. It's about five hundred thousand square feet under roof that we have right now, and the activity under that roof is everything from cell assembly. So we're operating that line to finish in construction of the building.

So you're building batteries at the factory and you're also building more factory at the.

So you're building batteries at the factory and you're also building more factory at the.

Factory, exactly, yes, all simultaneously.

Factory, exactly, yes, all simultaneously.

I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem? The show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Matteo Haemio. He's the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Matteo started his company because he realized that in order to rebuild the grid, in order to move off fossil fuels, the world will very likely need batteries that are profoundly different than the batteries we have now. Specifically, Matteo's problem is this, how do you build batteries at scale that provide affordable backup power to the grid, not for two hours, four hours, or six hours, but for one one hundred hours. Matteo has been working on batteries for about twenty years. He's been doing it since before it was cool, and back in two thousand and nine he went to work at Tesla.

I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem? The show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Matteo Haemio. He's the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Matteo started his company because he realized that in order to rebuild the grid, in order to move off fossil fuels, the world will very likely need batteries that are profoundly different than the batteries we have now. Specifically, Matteo's problem is this, how do you build batteries at scale that provide affordable backup power to the grid, not for two hours, four hours, or six hours, but for one one hundred hours. Matteo has been working on batteries for about twenty years. He's been doing it since before it was cool, and back in two thousand and nine he went to work at Tesla.

So I went there specifically to put batteries on the grid, to take that technology and the balance of system which Tesla is excellent at, and take it out of the car and put it on the grid. And JB. Strabo, who is the CTO and my boss at Tesla while I was there, shared that vision and you know, in fact has always been a leader on this stuff, and so he gave me the room to run to do that internally in Tessa.

So I went there specifically to put batteries on the grid, to take that technology and the balance of system which Tesla is excellent at, and take it out of the car and put it on the grid. And JB. Strabo, who is the CTO and my boss at Tesla while I was there, shared that vision and you know, in fact has always been a leader on this stuff, and so he gave me the room to run to do that internally in Tessa.

And so you basically started the Tesla powerwall business.

And so you basically started the Tesla powerwall business.

There is that, right, that's right, more than just the power wall, so what we call the power pack and subsequently megapac, but batteries on the grid, yes, exactly.

There is that, right, that's right, more than just the power wall, so what we call the power pack and subsequently megapac, but batteries on the grid, yes, exactly.

So what is the limit of lithium and batteries? I mean, your company now is not a lithium ion battery company. Is there sort of a moment when you realize that lithium ion batteries are not going to solve all of the problems that need to be solved to shift to all renewable energy all the time.

So what is the limit of lithium and batteries? I mean, your company now is not a lithium ion battery company. Is there sort of a moment when you realize that lithium ion batteries are not going to solve all of the problems that need to be solved to shift to all renewable energy all the time.

Yeah, lithium mind batteries are a fantastic technology, but like any battery technology, there is a compromise somewhere, and in the case of lithium ion, it is cost. They are phenomenally energy dense, they cycle wonderfully, they are produced at massive scale, they're very they are in fact very safe, but they cost a lot for the kinds of problems that we also want to solve on the grid. Not just single digit duration hours intermittency challenges, right the sun going down and then coming back every morning, but multiple days of duration or even seasonal imbalances, and that duration of challenge. Lithium mind simply is not suited purely from a cost perspective to address, And so that was the challenge that I went after as soon as I left us.

Yeah, lithium mind batteries are a fantastic technology, but like any battery technology, there is a compromise somewhere, and in the case of lithium ion, it is cost. They are phenomenally energy dense, they cycle wonderfully, they are produced at massive scale, they're very they are in fact very safe, but they cost a lot for the kinds of problems that we also want to solve on the grid. Not just single digit duration hours intermittency challenges, right the sun going down and then coming back every morning, but multiple days of duration or even seasonal imbalances, and that duration of challenge. Lithium mind simply is not suited purely from a cost perspective to address, And so that was the challenge that I went after as soon as I left us.

So let's talk about Let's talk about duration, because that's obviously central to what you're doing. How long are lithium batteries sort of techno economically useful for like, presumably you could just keep adding them and you could have as much duration as you want with lithium ion batteries, but it would be wildly expensive and nobody's ever going to do it right. So for how long are they actually economically efficient for energy storage on the grid.

So let's talk about Let's talk about duration, because that's obviously central to what you're doing. How long are lithium batteries sort of techno economically useful for like, presumably you could just keep adding them and you could have as much duration as you want with lithium ion batteries, but it would be wildly expensive and nobody's ever going to do it right. So for how long are they actually economically efficient for energy storage on the grid.

Well, today, most of the lithium mind that's being put on the grid is between two and four hour rated power duration. So at its rated power, you start using the battery and it's empty in two or four hours. And what's been interesting is to see that duration evolve over time. So when the first lithium batteries were put on the grid, they were rated at fifteen minutes of duration, and then it crept up to thirty minutes, and then it's an hour, and you know, now it's two to four hours.

Well, today, most of the lithium mind that's being put on the grid is between two and four hour rated power duration. So at its rated power, you start using the battery and it's empty in two or four hours. And what's been interesting is to see that duration evolve over time. So when the first lithium batteries were put on the grid, they were rated at fifteen minutes of duration, and then it crept up to thirty minutes, and then it's an hour, and you know, now it's two to four hours.

And is that just a function of the batteries getting cheaper, so you can.

And is that just a function of the batteries getting cheaper, so you can.

In yeah, purely a function of cost, and so you you can take that cost and duration pairing and see where it's going to go. As certain costs, there's a there's a duration that is directly implied as a result, and so we know where the cost curve for lithium mine is going, and therefore we know where the duration is also going.

In yeah, purely a function of cost, and so you you can take that cost and duration pairing and see where it's going to go. As certain costs, there's a there's a duration that is directly implied as a result, and so we know where the cost curve for lithium mine is going, and therefore we know where the duration is also going.

So let's talk about that two to four hour duration that lithium ion batteries are at. Now, Like that seems very useful in the context of like those moments when it's a hot day and everybody gets home from work and turns up the air conditioner, and you know, traditionally we're now still in many places utilities have to turn on these very inefficient gas powered peaker plants, right, and if we can use lithium ion batteries to solve that, to prevent that from happening, like, that's great, right, Like that is a very useful step in the evolution away from fossil fuel. Precise why is that insufficient? Like, what's the next thing that we need that.

So let's talk about that two to four hour duration that lithium ion batteries are at. Now, Like that seems very useful in the context of like those moments when it's a hot day and everybody gets home from work and turns up the air conditioner, and you know, traditionally we're now still in many places utilities have to turn on these very inefficient gas powered peaker plants, right, and if we can use lithium ion batteries to solve that, to prevent that from happening, like, that's great, right, Like that is a very useful step in the evolution away from fossil fuel. Precise why is that insufficient? Like, what's the next thing that we need that.

We don't have, Well, the next thing that we don't have is what happens if you have one day that's like that, and then the next day that's like that, and the next day that's like that. You know, stressing the peak multiple days in a row. And it could be a stress that comes from heat, or it could be a stress that comes from cold, or could be a stress that comes from cloud cover storms. Right, because you know, one premise, of course, of the four hour battery is that you can recharge it when you need to, And all of a sudden, if you're in a weather event where recharging is highly uneconomic or it's not even possible, then then different solutions are needed, and different durations are also needed. So how do you ride through entirely these multi day duration weather events which we see in every market around the world.

We don't have, Well, the next thing that we don't have is what happens if you have one day that's like that, and then the next day that's like that, and the next day that's like that. You know, stressing the peak multiple days in a row. And it could be a stress that comes from heat, or it could be a stress that comes from cold, or could be a stress that comes from cloud cover storms. Right, because you know, one premise, of course, of the four hour battery is that you can recharge it when you need to, And all of a sudden, if you're in a weather event where recharging is highly uneconomic or it's not even possible, then then different solutions are needed, and different durations are also needed. So how do you ride through entirely these multi day duration weather events which we see in every market around the world.

So if we're at like four hours, there's any number of sort of hours, there's any amount of duration that you could kind of try and tackle next, right, it could be twelve or it could be twenty four. Now, but you end up going all the way to one hundred or one hundred ish, which I assume you didn't pick just because it's a satisfying round number, although it is a satisfying round number, Like why why do you decide to go all the way from four to one hundred.

So if we're at like four hours, there's any number of sort of hours, there's any amount of duration that you could kind of try and tackle next, right, it could be twelve or it could be twenty four. Now, but you end up going all the way to one hundred or one hundred ish, which I assume you didn't pick just because it's a satisfying round number, although it is a satisfying round number, Like why why do you decide to go all the way from four to one hundred.

It's a great question before in fact, we even started the company, and the question was, well, how do you solve the seasonal challenge? Right, that sort of winter to summer challenge for energy storage? And it's you can sort of have a gut sense for it. Well, but it covers a very wide range. Do we need ten hours? Do we need two thousand hours? So how do we win of that down? And well, this is how we framed it up. What duration energy storage do you need to solve those problems? And then what is implied about the cost for that and can you build something that actually hits that cost target? And so the one hundred hours falls out of that very deep technical exercise. If we say to take the state my home state of California, for example, one percent of the carbon emissions on the electric grid comes from natural gas. There is no more coal in state of California, and if you look at the way that the natural gas fleet participates in that system, if we want to be able to drive to a deeper decarbonization for that particular grid, which California does legislatively, it's bound to, then we have to functionally replace at least some of those natural gas plants. And when we look at what the battery needs to do technically, it needs to be able to provide that at least four day duration range. So just functionally, that's what it has to do. It's got to cover those cloudy you know, three or four days in a row when the solar is not really contributing to the system.

It's a great question before in fact, we even started the company, and the question was, well, how do you solve the seasonal challenge? Right, that sort of winter to summer challenge for energy storage? And it's you can sort of have a gut sense for it. Well, but it covers a very wide range. Do we need ten hours? Do we need two thousand hours? So how do we win of that down? And well, this is how we framed it up. What duration energy storage do you need to solve those problems? And then what is implied about the cost for that and can you build something that actually hits that cost target? And so the one hundred hours falls out of that very deep technical exercise. If we say to take the state my home state of California, for example, one percent of the carbon emissions on the electric grid comes from natural gas. There is no more coal in state of California, and if you look at the way that the natural gas fleet participates in that system, if we want to be able to drive to a deeper decarbonization for that particular grid, which California does legislatively, it's bound to, then we have to functionally replace at least some of those natural gas plants. And when we look at what the battery needs to do technically, it needs to be able to provide that at least four day duration range. So just functionally, that's what it has to do. It's got to cover those cloudy you know, three or four days in a row when the solar is not really contributing to the system.

And so in the case of California, you have the law on your side exactly. It's like, well, these utilities are going to have to buy something, so let's figure out how to be the ones to sell it to them. And in particular, what they're going to need to buy is order of magnitude days, not hours, not weeks of energy storage.

And so in the case of California, you have the law on your side exactly. It's like, well, these utilities are going to have to buy something, so let's figure out how to be the ones to sell it to them. And in particular, what they're going to need to buy is order of magnitude days, not hours, not weeks of energy storage.

That's right, And if you need those days, then the cost falls out of that and you have to be somewhere around twenty dollars per kilo whatt hour again one tenth maybe the future cost of lithium ion. That's where we started, and so that's where the pairing of one hundred hours and roughly twenty dollars per kilo era comes in. It all falls out of the modeling that is done to really understand the electric system and how it operates as a portfolio.

That's right, And if you need those days, then the cost falls out of that and you have to be somewhere around twenty dollars per kilo whatt hour again one tenth maybe the future cost of lithium ion. That's where we started, and so that's where the pairing of one hundred hours and roughly twenty dollars per kilo era comes in. It all falls out of the modeling that is done to really understand the electric system and how it operates as a portfolio.

So now you have this frame and you've got to figure out how to build a battery that has a sufficient duration at a low enough cost. And there's a lot of options, right, there's a lot of like weird fun things people are trying to do the thing you're trying to do, Right, So how do you get to where you get to?

So now you have this frame and you've got to figure out how to build a battery that has a sufficient duration at a low enough cost. And there's a lot of options, right, there's a lot of like weird fun things people are trying to do the thing you're trying to do, Right, So how do you get to where you get to?

Well, we started doing a bakeoff. Essentially, we didn't we didn't pick the technology. We knew that design space we had to operate inside of, and that was that one hundred hour twenty dollars per killer hour range. And we had a couple contending chemistries that we liked. One was sulfur based, the other was iron based. We had some other ideas as well, but when we first founded the company and took investment, our promise for that to those investors, for the very first round of funding was we will identify the most promising chemistry, not that we were going to solve it or that we could prove that we had a market.

Well, we started doing a bakeoff. Essentially, we didn't we didn't pick the technology. We knew that design space we had to operate inside of, and that was that one hundred hour twenty dollars per killer hour range. And we had a couple contending chemistries that we liked. One was sulfur based, the other was iron based. We had some other ideas as well, but when we first founded the company and took investment, our promise for that to those investors, for the very first round of funding was we will identify the most promising chemistry, not that we were going to solve it or that we could prove that we had a market.

So people are giving you money to build batteries and you didn't even know what the batteries were going to be exactly.

So people are giving you money to build batteries and you didn't even know what the batteries were going to be exactly.

Yeah, but to be clear, that's because the opportunity is overwhelmingly compelling. Right, this is a trillion dollar market if you can get it right, and so that's why it was worth it to even pursue this experiment from the beginning. And so we had a couple of different technologies that we evaluated, and at the end of the first year, it was clear that iron air was the one that had the greatest chance to succeed. The entitled costs was there, the entitled embodiment of that cost as a real device was there, and the performance was there. And so that's the one that we picked, and that's the one that we said, this is what we're going to really devote our company towards.

Yeah, but to be clear, that's because the opportunity is overwhelmingly compelling. Right, this is a trillion dollar market if you can get it right, and so that's why it was worth it to even pursue this experiment from the beginning. And so we had a couple of different technologies that we evaluated, and at the end of the first year, it was clear that iron air was the one that had the greatest chance to succeed. The entitled costs was there, the entitled embodiment of that cost as a real device was there, and the performance was there. And so that's the one that we picked, and that's the one that we said, this is what we're going to really devote our company towards.

Tell me about iron, Like, why do you land on iron?

Tell me about iron, Like, why do you land on iron?

Well? Iron, Besides, coal's the most mind substance on Earth, a few billion tons of it every year.

Well? Iron, Besides, coal's the most mind substance on Earth, a few billion tons of it every year.

Not scarce. One country is not going to lock down iron reserves for the planet.

Not scarce. One country is not going to lock down iron reserves for the planet.

Definitely not. And you know, if you squint, it's not too hard to envision the Earth is just a rusty ball basically.

Definitely not. And you know, if you squint, it's not too hard to envision the Earth is just a rusty ball basically.

Feels about right too, like vibes wise rusty balls.

Feels about right too, like vibes wise rusty balls.

Yeah, exactly, exactly, And so you're never going to run out of it, of course, and you know, humans know a lot about iron. Frankly, there was a whole age of humanity that where we really played around it.

Yeah, exactly, exactly, And so you're never going to run out of it, of course, and you know, humans know a lot about iron. Frankly, there was a whole age of humanity that where we really played around it.

It's like, well, stone not great as a battery, Bronze too expensive, Wait a minute.

It's like, well, stone not great as a battery, Bronze too expensive, Wait a minute.

And so we like the idea that there is a substance that that a lot is known about but had never really been brought into the modern understanding. Electric and other iron batteries are out there. So, for example, Thomas Edison, the battery that he went to market with is a nickel iron battery using an iron anode, and that was over one hundred years ago now, and so a lot is known relatively speaking about iron anuts, but it's not an art that has been really advanced recently. And so where we started from was the best understanding that was out there about iron air, which actually comes from the nineteen seventies roughly. There was some work that was done recently at of one academic labit, but not too much. And we saw that the performance metrics that Westinghouse was able to get at a study that they did at the behest of the US Department of Energy, that if we could achieve what they had done fifty years ago. Then we had a minimum of a viable product, and we thought, we think we could probably do that.

And so we like the idea that there is a substance that that a lot is known about but had never really been brought into the modern understanding. Electric and other iron batteries are out there. So, for example, Thomas Edison, the battery that he went to market with is a nickel iron battery using an iron anode, and that was over one hundred years ago now, and so a lot is known relatively speaking about iron anuts, but it's not an art that has been really advanced recently. And so where we started from was the best understanding that was out there about iron air, which actually comes from the nineteen seventies roughly. There was some work that was done recently at of one academic labit, but not too much. And we saw that the performance metrics that Westinghouse was able to get at a study that they did at the behest of the US Department of Energy, that if we could achieve what they had done fifty years ago. Then we had a minimum of a viable product, and we thought, we think we could probably do that.

I mean, it's the basic idea, like iron is cheap and big and heavy and not that energy dense. Of course, nobody's gonna use it for a laptop or a car. It's like the opposite of what you want for a laptop or a car. But like you don't actually care in this instance if it's big and heavy, because you're just gonna put it out whatever in the desert anyways, where there's a ton of space exactly.

I mean, it's the basic idea, like iron is cheap and big and heavy and not that energy dense. Of course, nobody's gonna use it for a laptop or a car. It's like the opposite of what you want for a laptop or a car. But like you don't actually care in this instance if it's big and heavy, because you're just gonna put it out whatever in the desert anyways, where there's a ton of space exactly.

And again, the overriding consideration here for the selection of a chemistry to pursue is cost, and specifically capex cost, and back to your earlier question, the things that we can trade off as a result. I'll give you one example cycle life.

And again, the overriding consideration here for the selection of a chemistry to pursue is cost, and specifically capex cost, and back to your earlier question, the things that we can trade off as a result. I'll give you one example cycle life.

You know with you my.

You know with you my.

Batteries cycle phenomenally well thousands of times.

Batteries cycle phenomenally well thousands of times.

Cycle life meaning charge and discharge and charge.

Cycle life meaning charge and discharge and charge.

Charge and discharge.

Charge and discharge.

That's right.

That's right.

But to give you an example for the way that technically we can think about a trade off in pursuit a very low cost. If I am building a battery that let's just say, discharges over the course of a week to make this easy and charges over the course of a week of efficiency. Then the maximum number number of cycles I can get in the year is twenty six, right, theoretical maximum, and over the course of a twenty year project life, it's roughly five hundred, a far cry from the thousands and thousands of cycles that lithium mine is pursuing because it needs, right, I have to be very good at charging and discharging hundreds of times, but that is a materially different challenge than thousands of times. Right.

But to give you an example for the way that technically we can think about a trade off in pursuit a very low cost. If I am building a battery that let's just say, discharges over the course of a week to make this easy and charges over the course of a week of efficiency. Then the maximum number number of cycles I can get in the year is twenty six, right, theoretical maximum, and over the course of a twenty year project life, it's roughly five hundred, a far cry from the thousands and thousands of cycles that lithium mine is pursuing because it needs, right, I have to be very good at charging and discharging hundreds of times, but that is a materially different challenge than thousands of times. Right.

So you're close now to having real working batteries out in the world. You've been working on it for years. Is there an example of a thing that you figured out between when you started and now?

So you're close now to having real working batteries out in the world. You've been working on it for years. Is there an example of a thing that you figured out between when you started and now?

Yeah, So, to be clear, we have working batteries out there in the grid right now. So we deployed our first battery connected to the grid charging and discharging about a year ago. So it was in summer of last year that our first one went out in the world and we learned a lot from that. But as far as a learning that we had along the way, it's about iron. Maybe not surprisingly. You know, iron reacts to different levels, so you have different states of oxidation for iron right, So.

Yeah, So, to be clear, we have working batteries out there in the grid right now. So we deployed our first battery connected to the grid charging and discharging about a year ago. So it was in summer of last year that our first one went out in the world and we learned a lot from that. But as far as a learning that we had along the way, it's about iron. Maybe not surprisingly. You know, iron reacts to different levels, so you have different states of oxidation for iron right, So.

Basically rust in the case. That's right, that's right, that's right.

Basically rust in the case. That's right, that's right, that's right.

And the first reaction is iron to iron hydroxide, so you have FH right, one hydroxide, and there's a theoretical limit to the amount of energy you can get out of that particular reaction.

And the first reaction is iron to iron hydroxide, so you have FH right, one hydroxide, and there's a theoretical limit to the amount of energy you can get out of that particular reaction.

And just to be clear, this is relevant too, because your batteries when they're charging and discharging are sort of rusting and unrusting. Right, that is a version of what is happening. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And just to be clear, this is relevant too, because your batteries when they're charging and discharging are sort of rusting and unrusting. Right, that is a version of what is happening. Yeah, that's exactly right.

That's precisely what's happening. And what we have found is that, in fact, the theoretical limit is about thirty percent higher than what we originally thought it was. And I can't tell you why precisely because there's a lot of trade secret involved in this, but that's one learning that we had.

That's precisely what's happening. And what we have found is that, in fact, the theoretical limit is about thirty percent higher than what we originally thought it was. And I can't tell you why precisely because there's a lot of trade secret involved in this, but that's one learning that we had.

That's like a basic science insight.

That's like a basic science insight.

This is not in the published literature anywhere. This is a true discovery by the team at form Energy.

This is not in the published literature anywhere. This is a true discovery by the team at form Energy.

And tell me about deciding to go trade secret instead of patent. You wanted to try and keep it forever, why not patented and be sure you own it?

And tell me about deciding to go trade secret instead of patent. You wanted to try and keep it forever, why not patented and be sure you own it?

Well, it's a combination of things. You know, our intellectual property approach. He utilizes different different methods depending on what it is.

Well, it's a combination of things. You know, our intellectual property approach. He utilizes different different methods depending on what it is.

You figure trade cigarette work for Coca Cola, they work for it. Patent there formula years ago. Where would they be to day. We'll be back in just a minute. So you're actually talking to me today from forms factory in weird in West Virginia. Tell me about Tell me about the factory. Tell me about weird.

You figure trade cigarette work for Coca Cola, they work for it. Patent there formula years ago. Where would they be to day. We'll be back in just a minute. So you're actually talking to me today from forms factory in weird in West Virginia. Tell me about Tell me about the factory. Tell me about weird.

So Weirden is where we're building this plant, and it's the home of what was weird And Steel and it was the dominant economic driver for this region in the northern what's called the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia. It's a stretch of West Virginia that sits between Ohio and Pennsylvania. And the plant was one of the most productive plants steel plants in the country for a very long time, employed about fourteen thousand people in The plant shut in the early two thousands, and so that's the site. Most of the plant is gone. There's only one remaining structure from that plant. But we are on that same historic site and it's a huge privilege to be able to build this plant here in where is.

So Weirden is where we're building this plant, and it's the home of what was weird And Steel and it was the dominant economic driver for this region in the northern what's called the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia. It's a stretch of West Virginia that sits between Ohio and Pennsylvania. And the plant was one of the most productive plants steel plants in the country for a very long time, employed about fourteen thousand people in The plant shut in the early two thousands, and so that's the site. Most of the plant is gone. There's only one remaining structure from that plant. But we are on that same historic site and it's a huge privilege to be able to build this plant here in where is.

There a practical reason that you're on the site of a steel plant. I mean, is there is raw iron close by? Are the rail links good?

There a practical reason that you're on the site of a steel plant. I mean, is there is raw iron close by? Are the rail links good?

Yeah, it's a phenomenal piece of physical infrastructure, is what it comes down to. And that's how most of the steel sites were picked originally in the country. You know, flat places near rivers with great connectivity to the economy essentially, and so that's exactly what this site is. So it's right on the Ohio River. There's barge access, which of course connects into the Mississippi. There's two rail lines, one one which comes directly into our site and another which is not very far away, and then phenomenal highway interconnectivity to the country as well.

Yeah, it's a phenomenal piece of physical infrastructure, is what it comes down to. And that's how most of the steel sites were picked originally in the country. You know, flat places near rivers with great connectivity to the economy essentially, and so that's exactly what this site is. So it's right on the Ohio River. There's barge access, which of course connects into the Mississippi. There's two rail lines, one one which comes directly into our site and another which is not very far away, and then phenomenal highway interconnectivity to the country as well.

So you now you have a factory. You were at the factory, you're making batteries. You're building more factory so you can make more batteries.

So you now you have a factory. You were at the factory, you're making batteries. You're building more factory so you can make more batteries.

Batteries, that's right.

Batteries, that's right.

What do you have to figure out next? Like what is sort of the frontier for you at this point?

What do you have to figure out next? Like what is sort of the frontier for you at this point?

Well, at those point the things we have to figure out are the really the scaled manufacturing processes. There's not a lot more that we can do in the lab, even building sort of production intent size scale systems, which we do all the time, and we have to build those devices off of the real volume processes. So the equipment sets right, the operations right, That's where the risk remains in the company, and the only way to retire that risk is to take that step into do it. And so that's really where the focus is as a company is on that next phase to get into startup production, to produce those batteries, and to work through the challenges that inevitably pop up when you do something for the first time at that scale.

Well, at those point the things we have to figure out are the really the scaled manufacturing processes. There's not a lot more that we can do in the lab, even building sort of production intent size scale systems, which we do all the time, and we have to build those devices off of the real volume processes. So the equipment sets right, the operations right, That's where the risk remains in the company, and the only way to retire that risk is to take that step into do it. And so that's really where the focus is as a company is on that next phase to get into startup production, to produce those batteries, and to work through the challenges that inevitably pop up when you do something for the first time at that scale.

So you can make a battery, the hard thing now is to make a thousand batteries or whatever.

So you can make a battery, the hard thing now is to make a thousand batteries or whatever.

Yeah, at high quality and low cost and low cost.

Yeah, at high quality and low cost and low cost.

And so tell me, when you have like a full scale deployment, what'll it look like.

And so tell me, when you have like a full scale deployment, what'll it look like.

Yeah, it'll look pretty boring, is the short answer.

Yeah, it'll look pretty boring, is the short answer.

And ideally the operation will be super boring, right Well, yeah, yeah, paint drying in a field, that's that's what it literally iron rusting. It'll literally be iron resting in a field, you know.

And ideally the operation will be super boring, right Well, yeah, yeah, paint drying in a field, that's that's what it literally iron rusting. It'll literally be iron resting in a field, you know.

And unresting. We'll go both ways.

And unresting. We'll go both ways.

That's the hard part.

That's the hard part.

Yeah, these will because shipping containers, so forty foot containers installed in a field. In other words, it will look like pretty much any other battery that is installed for utilities today, and most people don't know what that looks like, but it is just shipping containers in salt on pads in a rays in a field. And so the size of these projects ranges from dozens of those enclosures to hundreds or even thousands in some cases.

Yeah, these will because shipping containers, so forty foot containers installed in a field. In other words, it will look like pretty much any other battery that is installed for utilities today, and most people don't know what that looks like, but it is just shipping containers in salt on pads in a rays in a field. And so the size of these projects ranges from dozens of those enclosures to hundreds or even thousands in some cases.

Your initial your initial projects are dozens, I imagine that's correct.

Your initial your initial projects are dozens, I imagine that's correct.

So the first projects that we're doing are generally be around ten megawatts each, So that's what these utilities. They range from five to fifteen, but let's just say they're ten. And so at ten megawats one hundred hours, that's a thousand megawatt hours, right, And that puts these initial batteries that we're putting in the field, at least from an energy perspective, as some of the largest batteries ever deployed on the grid.

So the first projects that we're doing are generally be around ten megawatts each, So that's what these utilities. They range from five to fifteen, but let's just say they're ten. And so at ten megawats one hundred hours, that's a thousand megawatt hours, right, And that puts these initial batteries that we're putting in the field, at least from an energy perspective, as some of the largest batteries ever deployed on the grid.

So you talked about, you know, having to scale, right, having to figure out how to build thousands of batteries that are cheap and reliable. Is there like a particular piece of that that you're trying to figure out right now, or a particular piece of it that seems frankly daunting.

So you talked about, you know, having to scale, right, having to figure out how to build thousands of batteries that are cheap and reliable. Is there like a particular piece of that that you're trying to figure out right now, or a particular piece of it that seems frankly daunting.

So the category of challenges that we have in front of us are squarely in the engineering and specifically manufacturing engineering challenge. How can go wrong is inevitably things pop up when you're doing manufacturing at scale for the first time, and so generally these are challenges that involve sort of days to weeks of challenge that you need to solve, but you can inevitably solve them with a good team who knows what it's doing, and so that's what we've built. I think the biggest risk for us now, frankly is hiring to fully build out that team to be able to do that on time and the way that we need to. But I'm not worried at all about whether there's some technical challenge that will pop up that we cannot solve. We are through that phase of what's needed and it truly is an execution play from here. There's no magic pixie dust required. We don't need to say any prayers over a piece of technology to hope that it works. We know that it works, and we know that it works at the scale, but we need to go do it, and so that's the main challenge.

So the category of challenges that we have in front of us are squarely in the engineering and specifically manufacturing engineering challenge. How can go wrong is inevitably things pop up when you're doing manufacturing at scale for the first time, and so generally these are challenges that involve sort of days to weeks of challenge that you need to solve, but you can inevitably solve them with a good team who knows what it's doing, and so that's what we've built. I think the biggest risk for us now, frankly is hiring to fully build out that team to be able to do that on time and the way that we need to. But I'm not worried at all about whether there's some technical challenge that will pop up that we cannot solve. We are through that phase of what's needed and it truly is an execution play from here. There's no magic pixie dust required. We don't need to say any prayers over a piece of technology to hope that it works. We know that it works, and we know that it works at the scale, but we need to go do it, and so that's the main challenge.

And then in the media term, I mean other people are working on other kinds of batteries, other kinds of energy storage, of long duration energy storage, I mean, tell me about that sort of competitive landscape, like, what are the other technologies that you think are compelling in kind of similar duration.

And then in the media term, I mean other people are working on other kinds of batteries, other kinds of energy storage, of long duration energy storage, I mean, tell me about that sort of competitive landscape, like, what are the other technologies that you think are compelling in kind of similar duration.

Well, that term long duration energy storage is an interesting one because it is used very broadly today, and that's why we actually prefer the term multi day duration storage because it puts a little bit more precision around what we're doing specifically. So long duration energy storage is used today to refer to six hours of lithium ion.

Well, that term long duration energy storage is an interesting one because it is used very broadly today, and that's why we actually prefer the term multi day duration storage because it puts a little bit more precision around what we're doing specifically. So long duration energy storage is used today to refer to six hours of lithium ion.

For you're like fat, you call that log It's like I get out of bed in the morning, I do think.

For you're like fat, you call that log It's like I get out of bed in the morning, I do think.

Yeah, Well, you know, for litium mine, it is long compared to what it used to be, but it's fairly incremental.

Yeah, Well, you know, for litium mine, it is long compared to what it used to be, but it's fairly incremental.

Well, who else is going for multi day? Like? Tell me other compelling multi day storage techniques.

Well, who else is going for multi day? Like? Tell me other compelling multi day storage techniques.

So it's not so much that there's other storage technologies, it's that there are other technologies that could act as a substitute for what we're doing. So for example, nuclear power, carbon capture on thermal plants, for example, hydrogen is also a possibility there. Or even if you want to transmission, if we had a perfectly interconnected globe for transmission, we would never need to store energy at all.

So it's not so much that there's other storage technologies, it's that there are other technologies that could act as a substitute for what we're doing. So for example, nuclear power, carbon capture on thermal plants, for example, hydrogen is also a possibility there. Or even if you want to transmission, if we had a perfectly interconnected globe for transmission, we would never need to store energy at all.

Right, Oh, interesting, right, because the sun is always shining somewhere.

Right, Oh, interesting, right, because the sun is always shining somewhere.

That's right. One eighth of the world is enjoying a summer afternoon at all. Tests right, Yeah, So now that's a thought experiment.

That's right. One eighth of the world is enjoying a summer afternoon at all. Tests right, Yeah, So now that's a thought experiment.

And do you like I mean, obviously that's the sort of limit case that's not going to happen. But when you think about reasons you might not win in the long run, For lack of a better word, I don't love that word there. You think more about universes where we don't actually need one hundred hours of storage, universe where there is great carbon capture on natural gas plants, or more nuclear power, better transmission.

And do you like I mean, obviously that's the sort of limit case that's not going to happen. But when you think about reasons you might not win in the long run, For lack of a better word, I don't love that word there. You think more about universes where we don't actually need one hundred hours of storage, universe where there is great carbon capture on natural gas plants, or more nuclear power, better transmission.

Yeah, I don't think about it quite that way. When we think about competition, we need to make sure it's in the context of the market that we're opp and this is very much right now a non zero sum market. In other words, it is growing incredibly fast and large. And you know, the whole industry is just accelerating in a way that it has not essentially since it was built. So we're seeing load growth, you know, four or five percent or more in some cases. It hasn't been like that for literally fifty or sixty years.

Yeah, I don't think about it quite that way. When we think about competition, we need to make sure it's in the context of the market that we're opp and this is very much right now a non zero sum market. In other words, it is growing incredibly fast and large. And you know, the whole industry is just accelerating in a way that it has not essentially since it was built. So we're seeing load growth, you know, four or five percent or more in some cases. It hasn't been like that for literally fifty or sixty years.

Well, growth is basically demand.

Well, growth is basically demand.

For demand going up, that's right.

For demand going up, that's right.

And that's like electrification plus artificial intelligence. I mean, it is essentially those two drivers exactly.

And that's like electrification plus artificial intelligence. I mean, it is essentially those two drivers exactly.

That's exactly correct. Electrification of cars for you know, residential applications and electrification of industrial processes. You know, very large consumers, you know, transportation and industry, very large consumers of energy overall, and now a lot of that is becoming electric energy that they're consuming. And so our position in the market is very strong because we have a solution that is showing up in irrelevant timeframe and it can scale in a way that our customers. These utilities need it to scale. They need all solutions to show up. We've yet to have a conversation with any utility who says I'm only going with one solution.

That's exactly correct. Electrification of cars for you know, residential applications and electrification of industrial processes. You know, very large consumers, you know, transportation and industry, very large consumers of energy overall, and now a lot of that is becoming electric energy that they're consuming. And so our position in the market is very strong because we have a solution that is showing up in irrelevant timeframe and it can scale in a way that our customers. These utilities need it to scale. They need all solutions to show up. We've yet to have a conversation with any utility who says I'm only going with one solution.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, they're trying to build nuclear, they're trying to build more natural gas, they're trying to build as much renewables as they possibly can, and they're going to need this kind of multiday duration storage. So it's it's such a growth market for us that in some ways, if you can show up with a product that meets the specification on time and at scale, they will buy it just about as much of it as you possibly can supply.

Yeah, they're trying to build nuclear, they're trying to build more natural gas, they're trying to build as much renewables as they possibly can, and they're going to need this kind of multiday duration storage. So it's it's such a growth market for us that in some ways, if you can show up with a product that meets the specification on time and at scale, they will buy it just about as much of it as you possibly can supply.

So if things go the way you hope they will go, what will what will the world look like in whatever the medium term, whatever that is for you, five years maybe.

So if things go the way you hope they will go, what will what will the world look like in whatever the medium term, whatever that is for you, five years maybe.

Yeah, So in five years in the industry that we're in form could be a spectacular commercial success of an amazing business and still have relatively small impact just because of the size and scale of the industry overall. And I'll give you one point of reference. The US today has about twelve hundred gigawatts of installed capacity generation capacity in it and over the next five years, if we absolutely blow out of the water, we may make ten gigawatts worth of projects, which is a lot, which is a tremendous amount, right for one company to produce.

Yeah, So in five years in the industry that we're in form could be a spectacular commercial success of an amazing business and still have relatively small impact just because of the size and scale of the industry overall. And I'll give you one point of reference. The US today has about twelve hundred gigawatts of installed capacity generation capacity in it and over the next five years, if we absolutely blow out of the water, we may make ten gigawatts worth of projects, which is a lot, which is a tremendous amount, right for one company to produce.

Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of shipping containers of iron batteries.

Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of shipping containers of iron batteries.

That's right. And so it will take probably another ten years past that to see the kind of multi day stores that we're bringing into the market have a real material effect in the industry. And I think that we can get there for sure, but it requires scaling very quickly in multiple markets Europe, Asia, Africa to be able to drive the possibilities for what this kind of new type of asset in the electric system can do.

That's right. And so it will take probably another ten years past that to see the kind of multi day stores that we're bringing into the market have a real material effect in the industry. And I think that we can get there for sure, but it requires scaling very quickly in multiple markets Europe, Asia, Africa to be able to drive the possibilities for what this kind of new type of asset in the electric system can do.

So should that make me worry about the pace of decarbonization? I mean, if it's you know, even if you succeed wildly, you know, you will be very small relative to the whatever to global demand for energy. Like I get that, that's good for you, and in the long term it's good for the world. But is it worrying in the kind of short to medium term? Is it a reminder of how hard decarbonization is at various margins?

So should that make me worry about the pace of decarbonization? I mean, if it's you know, even if you succeed wildly, you know, you will be very small relative to the whatever to global demand for energy. Like I get that, that's good for you, and in the long term it's good for the world. But is it worrying in the kind of short to medium term? Is it a reminder of how hard decarbonization is at various margins?

Well, it certainly is a reminder of just how hard it is and how large the challenges, the scale of the challenge, And another way of thinking about it is to achieve the goals that have been laid out by governments across the globe. Roughly one hundred and fifty trillion dollars of investment are required through twenty fifty.

Well, it certainly is a reminder of just how hard it is and how large the challenges, the scale of the challenge, And another way of thinking about it is to achieve the goals that have been laid out by governments across the globe. Roughly one hundred and fifty trillion dollars of investment are required through twenty fifty.

Also good for you, but worry also good worrying.

Also good for you, but worry also good worrying.

The question is how quickly can we go from making the plans and having the technologies that are nascent and scaling up to actually implementing them at scale. And so what is not so concerned to me is between twenty thirty and twenty forty. I see a huge amount of opportunity to scale exactly what we're talking about, and again it's in all of the above scenario, So I see a lot of effort that's going into just the acceleration broadly speaking, and I do think that what Form is bringing to the table can play a meaningful role in that and it will take fifteen years to scale it up, and it's very possible, and we need a huge diversity of resources to meet the demand. Our existence in many ways is based on electricity these days, and we need all the different kinds of solutions to show up, and multi data, viason storage and specifically iron air batteries can play a meaningful role in that entire system and not only drive reliability up and cost down, but also meet the goals of load growth is a really big challenge, and meet the decarbonization goals of the electric system overall. And having this kind of asset just makes solving those challenges a lot easier.

The question is how quickly can we go from making the plans and having the technologies that are nascent and scaling up to actually implementing them at scale. And so what is not so concerned to me is between twenty thirty and twenty forty. I see a huge amount of opportunity to scale exactly what we're talking about, and again it's in all of the above scenario, So I see a lot of effort that's going into just the acceleration broadly speaking, and I do think that what Form is bringing to the table can play a meaningful role in that and it will take fifteen years to scale it up, and it's very possible, and we need a huge diversity of resources to meet the demand. Our existence in many ways is based on electricity these days, and we need all the different kinds of solutions to show up, and multi data, viason storage and specifically iron air batteries can play a meaningful role in that entire system and not only drive reliability up and cost down, but also meet the goals of load growth is a really big challenge, and meet the decarbonization goals of the electric system overall. And having this kind of asset just makes solving those challenges a lot easier.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. That's the end of the ADS. Now, of course, it's time for the lightning round, So tell me about vocational discernment.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. That's the end of the ADS. Now, of course, it's time for the lightning round, So tell me about vocational discernment.

Well, I think you're referring to the fact that I went to Divinity school at one point. This is, in fact, right before I joined the battery industry, I went to the Yale Divinity School, and Yale is a great place. I did consider going into the ministry. And one of the reasons why Yale me School is a great place is because they put you through the vocational discernment process, a very intentional process to discern if indeed the ordained ministry is right for you. And I realized very early on that I was not cut out at all to be an ordained minister, which is which is fortunate.

Well, I think you're referring to the fact that I went to Divinity school at one point. This is, in fact, right before I joined the battery industry, I went to the Yale Divinity School, and Yale is a great place. I did consider going into the ministry. And one of the reasons why Yale me School is a great place is because they put you through the vocational discernment process, a very intentional process to discern if indeed the ordained ministry is right for you. And I realized very early on that I was not cut out at all to be an ordained minister, which is which is fortunate.

You discerned that it was not your vocation. That's right.

You discerned that it was not your vocation. That's right.

It's a great thing to learn early on in the process. And and so I quickly realized if not that, then what and and so taking those same skills, because they are skills you can apply to a lot of, you know, mindsets. I really tried to figure out what what did I want to work on? I do want to work on. I have always wanted to work on something that I felt was meaningful and impactful, and and so for me, I just kept coming back to energy for for a lot of reasons. As a way to really make lives better in a lot of ways.

It's a great thing to learn early on in the process. And and so I quickly realized if not that, then what and and so taking those same skills, because they are skills you can apply to a lot of, you know, mindsets. I really tried to figure out what what did I want to work on? I do want to work on. I have always wanted to work on something that I felt was meaningful and impactful, and and so for me, I just kept coming back to energy for for a lot of reasons. As a way to really make lives better in a lot of ways.

You know.

You know.

One of the other elements of vocational discernment is you identify sort of key features of yourself, your personality, if you want. And one thing that I have come to learn about myself, not just them, but over a lot of time is I'm a pretty patient person for the things that I think are worthwhile, and so I was prepared to pursue something that I thought might take a decade or two, and that's what has happened. But I've stuck with it since then, and I'm glad of it. It's been it's been a great rite.

One of the other elements of vocational discernment is you identify sort of key features of yourself, your personality, if you want. And one thing that I have come to learn about myself, not just them, but over a lot of time is I'm a pretty patient person for the things that I think are worthwhile, and so I was prepared to pursue something that I thought might take a decade or two, and that's what has happened. But I've stuck with it since then, and I'm glad of it. It's been it's been a great rite.

Why did you think you might want to be a priest?

Why did you think you might want to be a priest?

Well, what I think I want to be a priest was because I am attracted to a lot of the intellectual elements of religion, and that is not the vocation. It turns out. I'm much more attracted to problems solving than problem listening, which is a large part of being a being a minister. So that's what I thought, But there's there. I have a huge fascination intellectually with religion and with the notion of God, and it was something that I wanted to spend time really thinking carefully about.

Well, what I think I want to be a priest was because I am attracted to a lot of the intellectual elements of religion, and that is not the vocation. It turns out. I'm much more attracted to problems solving than problem listening, which is a large part of being a being a minister. So that's what I thought, But there's there. I have a huge fascination intellectually with religion and with the notion of God, and it was something that I wanted to spend time really thinking carefully about.

What's something you learned in divinity school that's helpful in running a company.

What's something you learned in divinity school that's helpful in running a company.

So so many different things, you know, the study of theology in many ways is the study of human nature. And one thing about batteries that I love it. You know why it continues to think as a category, continue to fascinate me now and half since I started, is that batteries are in some ways like humans. They're all flawed in some way, and there is no perfect battery, and they can always be improved. That's the other thing I like about them.

So so many different things, you know, the study of theology in many ways is the study of human nature. And one thing about batteries that I love it. You know why it continues to think as a category, continue to fascinate me now and half since I started, is that batteries are in some ways like humans. They're all flawed in some way, and there is no perfect battery, and they can always be improved. That's the other thing I like about them.

That seems like a particularly Christian reader of batteries, if I might say, so.

That seems like a particularly Christian reader of batteries, if I might say, so.

There's there's yeah there, you know, there's no We don't know the limits of how batteries can be. And if you're curious enough then then then the rewards can be fantastic. And the also the other thing is if you find the right fit for the battery, then the flaws don't matter so much. And that's also sort of the way humans are. Right.

There's there's yeah there, you know, there's no We don't know the limits of how batteries can be. And if you're curious enough then then then the rewards can be fantastic. And the also the other thing is if you find the right fit for the battery, then the flaws don't matter so much. And that's also sort of the way humans are. Right.

So you and John Steinbeck share a hometown, Salinas, California. What's one Steinbeck book? If somebody's going to read one John Steinbeck book?

So you and John Steinbeck share a hometown, Salinas, California. What's one Steinbeck book? If somebody's going to read one John Steinbeck book?

What should they read, Well, east of Eden, but that's a long one, so there are shorter ones. You know. It sounds strange, but dubious Battle is one that really stuck with me. It's about labor relations, which was like.

What should they read, Well, east of Eden, but that's a long one, so there are shorter ones. You know. It sounds strange, but dubious Battle is one that really stuck with me. It's about labor relations, which was like.

The family business for you growing up, right.

The family business for you growing up, right.

Yeah, my father was a lawyer for farm workers and my mom was a teacher in public schools for basically kids who farm workers.

Yeah, my father was a lawyer for farm workers and my mom was a teacher in public schools for basically kids who farm workers.

What's one thing that you wish more people understood about energy or power?

What's one thing that you wish more people understood about energy or power?

Well, back to some of our earlier comments, just the scale of the industry and this and the size of things that happened. It really boggles the mind to try and appreciate how big of an industry it is and how much change is happening to such a large industry.

Well, back to some of our earlier comments, just the scale of the industry and this and the size of things that happened. It really boggles the mind to try and appreciate how big of an industry it is and how much change is happening to such a large industry.

I think it was maybe lots of people have said it, but I heard Jigger Shaw describe the grid as like the biggest machine ever built in the history of the world, which is a kind of rad way to think of it. Like it's this one giant machine, and not only is it giant, it has to work all the time, right, Like that's the other wild like you can never ever turn it off, that's right.

I think it was maybe lots of people have said it, but I heard Jigger Shaw describe the grid as like the biggest machine ever built in the history of the world, which is a kind of rad way to think of it. Like it's this one giant machine, and not only is it giant, it has to work all the time, right, Like that's the other wild like you can never ever turn it off, that's right.

Yeah, And not only that We're matching supply and demand instantaneously at all times, right, That's how the machine operates. So the way it operates is also just, you know, phenomenally complex, and it's amazing that we're able to have as much reliability as we do today. And so you know, the grid will be reinvented, it will be rebuilt actually and rebuilt again over the next thirty or four years. And so the scale, which is again hard to approximate, but appreciating that is key to understanding the direction that it will take and what will be involved to effect this change.

Yeah, And not only that We're matching supply and demand instantaneously at all times, right, That's how the machine operates. So the way it operates is also just, you know, phenomenally complex, and it's amazing that we're able to have as much reliability as we do today. And so you know, the grid will be reinvented, it will be rebuilt actually and rebuilt again over the next thirty or four years. And so the scale, which is again hard to approximate, but appreciating that is key to understanding the direction that it will take and what will be involved to effect this change.

It's like, is it the ship of theseus? Is that the one? It's like the giant, the giant like national scale ship of Thesius, where it's like the whole grid will be different and you won't even notice, You'll just flip the switch and the lights will go on.

It's like, is it the ship of theseus? Is that the one? It's like the giant, the giant like national scale ship of Thesius, where it's like the whole grid will be different and you won't even notice, You'll just flip the switch and the lights will go on.

That is what we're heading for for sure.

That is what we're heading for for sure.

Matteo Hademillo is the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was edited by Lyddy jen Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem.

Matteo Hademillo is the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was edited by Lyddy jen Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem.