Pushkin. I'm just listening to that's the walkie talkie again.

Pushkin. I'm just listening to that's the walkie talkie again.

Yeah, I'm in an operating chemical plant.

Yeah, I'm in an operating chemical plant.

Fair enough, Well, so is the is the bioforge? Is the factory? Like out the window behind you, you're in a trailer. Where's the factory from where you are?

Fair enough, Well, so is the is the bioforge? Is the factory? Like out the window behind you, you're in a trailer. Where's the factory from where you are?

It's right right right in front of me.

It's right right right in front of me.

Could you walk outside and throw a rock and hit it?

Could you walk outside and throw a rock and hit it?

Yes? Yeah. So we're on the former site of an exploded polyethylene wax distillery.

Yes? Yeah. So we're on the former site of an exploded polyethylene wax distillery.

It exploded.

It exploded.

Yeah, so so I just found in twenty sixteen. But the site that we're on exploded in two thousand and five. So it's what's called a.

Yeah, so so I just found in twenty sixteen. But the site that we're on exploded in two thousand and five. So it's what's called a.

Did you get a deal? Did you get a deal because it had blown up?

Did you get a deal? Did you get a deal because it had blown up?

We got a deal? Yeah? Yeah.

We got a deal? Yeah? Yeah.

So, like your site is a metaphor. It is like some a petrochemical plant blew up and you built a factory on top of the remains exactly. Yeah.

So, like your site is a metaphor. It is like some a petrochemical plant blew up and you built a factory on top of the remains exactly. Yeah.

So that there's actually a Chemical Safety Board report written about it. But it blew out every window in like a five mile radius.

So that there's actually a Chemical Safety Board report written about it. But it blew out every window in like a five mile radius.

Holy kah. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's your Problem? The show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Sean Hunt. He's the co founder and CTO of a chemical company called Solugen. Solugen sells around one hundred million dollars a year worth of industrial chemicals, but instead of making the chemicals from fossil fuels the way they're typically made, Sologen makes them from corn syrup. Sean's problem is this, how do you make the chemicals that go into everything around us, our food, our clothes, our cars without using fossil fuel. We've talked a lot on the show about the energy transition, the move away from fossil fuels as sources of energy. What Solugen is really working on is the chemical transition. Basically same idea, but for instead of energy. Solujen got its start at a poker table. Sean was getting his PhD studying catalysts, in particular the kinds of catalysts that are used to make industrial chemicals out of coal, oil, and gas. Sitting across the table from him was another grad student, another PhD student, a guy named Gorb Chakrabarti, who was studying biology in particular. He was studying enzymes in cancer cells, and enzymes, as it happens, are a kind of catalyst that thing Sean was studying in a very different context. So of course Jean and Gorub started talking about catalysts.

Holy kah. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's your Problem? The show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today is Sean Hunt. He's the co founder and CTO of a chemical company called Solugen. Solugen sells around one hundred million dollars a year worth of industrial chemicals, but instead of making the chemicals from fossil fuels the way they're typically made, Sologen makes them from corn syrup. Sean's problem is this, how do you make the chemicals that go into everything around us, our food, our clothes, our cars without using fossil fuel. We've talked a lot on the show about the energy transition, the move away from fossil fuels as sources of energy. What Solugen is really working on is the chemical transition. Basically same idea, but for instead of energy. Solujen got its start at a poker table. Sean was getting his PhD studying catalysts, in particular the kinds of catalysts that are used to make industrial chemicals out of coal, oil, and gas. Sitting across the table from him was another grad student, another PhD student, a guy named Gorb Chakrabarti, who was studying biology in particular. He was studying enzymes in cancer cells, and enzymes, as it happens, are a kind of catalyst that thing Sean was studying in a very different context. So of course Jean and Gorub started talking about catalysts.

Catalysts in general are used to make the physical world around you. Right, So the food that you eat, the clothes that you wear, the car that you drive, the house that you live in, all of those things were made using catalysts.

Catalysts in general are used to make the physical world around you. Right, So the food that you eat, the clothes that you wear, the car that you drive, the house that you live in, all of those things were made using catalysts.

Okay, and this is what you're studying in grad school.

Okay, and this is what you're studying in grad school.

Yep.

Yep.

Meanwhile, the guy sitting across from you at the poker table, Gorab, what's he studying.

Meanwhile, the guy sitting across from you at the poker table, Gorab, what's he studying.

So what he's studying is like catalysts gone wild. So in he's studying pangramic cancer. And so in a cancer cell is the catalysts that are in there, which are enzyme catalysts, these little folded up proteins. They evolve in a really strange, very unfortunate way. That is one of the reasons that cancer is so bad. But one of our conversations was, like, you know, he's describing these enzymes. I mean, like, how are they operating in this kind of crazy environment? Like enzyme shouldn't be able to do that? Like it like that's actually approaching an industrially relevant environment. It's unfortunate. It's happening inside a cancer cell. But it's like, hey, that's actually like that could actually have some uses.

So what he's studying is like catalysts gone wild. So in he's studying pangramic cancer. And so in a cancer cell is the catalysts that are in there, which are enzyme catalysts, these little folded up proteins. They evolve in a really strange, very unfortunate way. That is one of the reasons that cancer is so bad. But one of our conversations was, like, you know, he's describing these enzymes. I mean, like, how are they operating in this kind of crazy environment? Like enzyme shouldn't be able to do that? Like it like that's actually approaching an industrially relevant environment. It's unfortunate. It's happening inside a cancer cell. But it's like, hey, that's actually like that could actually have some uses.

Huh. It's really bad when it happens inside your body, but if you could make it happen in a factory, it might be useful.

Huh. It's really bad when it happens inside your body, but if you could make it happen in a factory, it might be useful.

It might be useful.

It might be useful.

Exactly your research and his research coming together. It's like the hyper nerd version of like the RECSS peanut butter cup, like chocolate and peanut butter, but for catalysts.

Exactly your research and his research coming together. It's like the hyper nerd version of like the RECSS peanut butter cup, like chocolate and peanut butter, but for catalysts.

Jacob, I have many friends. I have so many friends.

Jacob, I have many friends. I have so many friends.

So okay, but as you and Gora are talking about this, like really, why are these enzymes that he's studying, you know, potentially useful in an industrial setting?

So okay, but as you and Gora are talking about this, like really, why are these enzymes that he's studying, you know, potentially useful in an industrial setting?

Yeah, so if you think about it, like what does what does the enzyme have to offer? Yeah, so what an enzyme can do is it could convert a raw material into a product at room temperature and water with perfect yield.

Yeah, so if you think about it, like what does what does the enzyme have to offer? Yeah, so what an enzyme can do is it could convert a raw material into a product at room temperature and water with perfect yield.

Well that's the dream. That's like the cold fusion of your business.

Well that's the dream. That's like the cold fusion of your business.

I mean, yeah, enzymes are they're pretty much like the cold fusion of catalysis, Like they can do everything that you want to do in a manufacturing process, like perfectly.

I mean, yeah, enzymes are they're pretty much like the cold fusion of catalysis, Like they can do everything that you want to do in a manufacturing process, like perfectly.

But the problem's amazing, what's the catch.

But the problem's amazing, what's the catch.

Well, the problem is they're delicate, right, So, so like historically, like they're hard to make, they're very expensive to make, and like you know, I'll give you an example, like like some of the early like enzymes that you find in nature that you want to put in a chemical plant. That enzyme might cost two thousand dollars a pound to make, right, Chemicals are sold for two dollars.

Well, the problem is they're delicate, right, So, so like historically, like they're hard to make, they're very expensive to make, and like you know, I'll give you an example, like like some of the early like enzymes that you find in nature that you want to put in a chemical plant. That enzyme might cost two thousand dollars a pound to make, right, Chemicals are sold for two dollars.

A pound, right, Yeah, and so and you're making plastic, you're making commodity, you're making commodities, or you can't spend two thousand dollars a pound for your yeah, because catalyst.

A pound, right, Yeah, and so and you're making plastic, you're making commodity, you're making commodities, or you can't spend two thousand dollars a pound for your yeah, because catalyst.

Because if you can only make like one pound of your product per pound of enzyme, you're done. I mean there's no business to be had there.

Because if you can only make like one pound of your product per pound of enzyme, you're done. I mean there's no business to be had there.

You're a thousand times off.

You're a thousand times off.

Yeah, Like you're way off right Now, What if you could evolve that enzyme in the lab. This is called directive evolution, and you can use machine learning AI. There's all sorts of cool stuff that like changes literally every year on how to do this. What if you could evolve that enzyme to make one hundred thousand pounds of product per pound of enzyme. Huh. Now, now you have a business here. You could actually incorporate that enzyme into a chemical plant because you're going to consume so little of it that even though that enzyme is expensive, it has perfect yield in water at room temperature. I mean, that's an incredible capability.

Yeah, Like you're way off right Now, What if you could evolve that enzyme in the lab. This is called directive evolution, and you can use machine learning AI. There's all sorts of cool stuff that like changes literally every year on how to do this. What if you could evolve that enzyme to make one hundred thousand pounds of product per pound of enzyme. Huh. Now, now you have a business here. You could actually incorporate that enzyme into a chemical plant because you're going to consume so little of it that even though that enzyme is expensive, it has perfect yield in water at room temperature. I mean, that's an incredible capability.

And so this, I mean you mentioned like, so what if you could evolve meeting sort of direct the evolution of that enzyme? Right, this is a relatively new idea, right, Like, obviously, people have known about enzymes for a long time and they're essential to like everything that happens in our body. Not quite but kind of, right, So this is the key idea. Then it's like what if we everybody knows enzymes can do this, but they're not. They're too expensive slash not efficient enough. Right, the amount of enzyme you have to use is too expensive given the amount of product you get. And you guys realize that there is this relatively recent scientific research that suggests you can get enzymes to produce way more product per unit enzyme per enzyme exactly, So like, so what do you do?

And so this, I mean you mentioned like, so what if you could evolve meeting sort of direct the evolution of that enzyme? Right, this is a relatively new idea, right, Like, obviously, people have known about enzymes for a long time and they're essential to like everything that happens in our body. Not quite but kind of, right, So this is the key idea. Then it's like what if we everybody knows enzymes can do this, but they're not. They're too expensive slash not efficient enough. Right, the amount of enzyme you have to use is too expensive given the amount of product you get. And you guys realize that there is this relatively recent scientific research that suggests you can get enzymes to produce way more product per unit enzyme per enzyme exactly, So like, so what do you do?

Kind Of as this was happening, you know, I was coming up, I was on my last year and about to graduate, and I'm kind of having you know, I don't know, maybe maybe a bit of a crisis on like that, Like I really like the in academia. I don't really want to go work for a big company like I've worked for big But he's in the past not a huge fan. And you know, it's like if there's a time in my life to try something, like, let's do it. And Gore was kind of having a similar thing, like he he really liked the PhD program, but then he did his final two years back in med school and like was just not love and medicine. And so we were like, well, what if we could make something work here, And so we entered the MIT hundred k entrepreneurship competition in twenty sixteen. We got ten thousand bucks, and I mean we were super jazzed. I mean we were like, oh my gosh, like we have some seed money. This is incredible. And sort of the rest of this is sort of again like this just like continual series of just kind of lucky breaks. I kind of joke, I think Gorb's like the luckiest person I've ever met. So the more I'm associated with Gore, the luckier the luckier.

Kind Of as this was happening, you know, I was coming up, I was on my last year and about to graduate, and I'm kind of having you know, I don't know, maybe maybe a bit of a crisis on like that, Like I really like the in academia. I don't really want to go work for a big company like I've worked for big But he's in the past not a huge fan. And you know, it's like if there's a time in my life to try something, like, let's do it. And Gore was kind of having a similar thing, like he he really liked the PhD program, but then he did his final two years back in med school and like was just not love and medicine. And so we were like, well, what if we could make something work here, And so we entered the MIT hundred k entrepreneurship competition in twenty sixteen. We got ten thousand bucks, and I mean we were super jazzed. I mean we were like, oh my gosh, like we have some seed money. This is incredible. And sort of the rest of this is sort of again like this just like continual series of just kind of lucky breaks. I kind of joke, I think Gorb's like the luckiest person I've ever met. So the more I'm associated with Gore, the luckier the luckier.

A great move teaming up with the lucky person.

A great move teaming up with the lucky person.

Yeah. Yeah, he's got incredible, incredible luck. So at this point, Fure, I've been long distance with my wife now right, We've been long this for seven years. She's like, you're moving to Dallas. I'm like, all right, well, Gorb's in Dallas. We're going to start this thing. Like let's go. So we rent some lab space right behind Dallas left Field Airport, like four hundred bucks a month. We go to home depot to build, like, let's build a proof of concept reactor and you know, let's let's do you know, a basic enzyme and try to make HydroD broxide.

Yeah. Yeah, he's got incredible, incredible luck. So at this point, Fure, I've been long distance with my wife now right, We've been long this for seven years. She's like, you're moving to Dallas. I'm like, all right, well, Gorb's in Dallas. We're going to start this thing. Like let's go. So we rent some lab space right behind Dallas left Field Airport, like four hundred bucks a month. We go to home depot to build, like, let's build a proof of concept reactor and you know, let's let's do you know, a basic enzyme and try to make HydroD broxide.

Okay.

Okay.

And what was really fortunate was our pitch video to thee hundred Coentrepreneurship competition got shared to a Facebook group of float spot owners a float spa, a float spot. Yeah. So these are saltwater hot tubs that are like isolation chambers and like it's.

And what was really fortunate was our pitch video to thee hundred Coentrepreneurship competition got shared to a Facebook group of float spot owners a float spa, a float spot. Yeah. So these are saltwater hot tubs that are like isolation chambers and like it's.

Like a sensory deprivation tank.

Like a sensory deprivation tank.

Sensory deprivation tanks, and it was like a really like nascent industry pretty much created by Steph Curry.

Sensory deprivation tanks, and it was like a really like nascent industry pretty much created by Steph Curry.

And because he's into it, he's into well, maybe I'll be able to drain threes all day if I go to a sensory deprivation.

And because he's into it, he's into well, maybe I'll be able to drain threes all day if I go to a sensory deprivation.

I think the one the one common thing when you talk to all the owners of these float spots are like Steph Curry did so much for this industry.

I think the one the one common thing when you talk to all the owners of these float spots are like Steph Curry did so much for this industry.

Okay, so wait, why does your video get like what's the connection?

Okay, so wait, why does your video get like what's the connection?

So one of the float spot owners thought this was the coolest thing. They have like trouble buying peroxide. They have trouble handling it.

So one of the float spot owners thought this was the coolest thing. They have like trouble buying peroxide. They have trouble handling it.

They're also they need peroxide. I don't get the link.

They're also they need peroxide. I don't get the link.

They use peroxide to clean the hot tubs in between people going in and out. So if you if you kind of think about it, it's a little bit like you're going in and out of hot tub over and over again.

They use peroxide to clean the hot tubs in between people going in and out. So if you if you kind of think about it, it's a little bit like you're going in and out of hot tub over and over again.

Yeah, nasty, super nasty.

Yeah, nasty, super nasty.

Yes, you got to clean it well.

Yes, you got to clean it well.

And I mean you can buy peroxide at Walgreens. You can buy peroxide at the drug store. What's the what's the why don't they just do that? What's going on?

And I mean you can buy peroxide at Walgreens. You can buy peroxide at the drug store. What's the what's the why don't they just do that? What's going on?

So you can, but they use a more concentrated peroxide okay. And so it's got some you know, shipping its ships haasmad, things like that. And so they're also environmentally conscious. So so I think they also found it fascinating that I was like, hey, these guys are going to make peroxide and they're doing it in a more sustainable way, and so we got like inbound. I'm like, hey, if you make this, we'll buy it.

So you can, but they use a more concentrated peroxide okay. And so it's got some you know, shipping its ships haasmad, things like that. And so they're also environmentally conscious. So so I think they also found it fascinating that I was like, hey, these guys are going to make peroxide and they're doing it in a more sustainable way, and so we got like inbound. I'm like, hey, if you make this, we'll buy it.

Okay, that's amazing.

Okay, that's amazing.

Yees, We're like this is really cool. So you know, built this little it was like seven thousand dollars all in like air compressor from a depot, a little PBC reactor. So we're feeding at sugar, We're feeding at air. There's this engineered enzyme that's like floating around inside of it, okay, and the sugar in the air react inside the tube, and then we have a membrane that keeps the enzyme inside okay. And then on the other side of the membrane we get hydrogen peroxide in an organic acid.

Yees, We're like this is really cool. So you know, built this little it was like seven thousand dollars all in like air compressor from a depot, a little PBC reactor. So we're feeding at sugar, We're feeding at air. There's this engineered enzyme that's like floating around inside of it, okay, and the sugar in the air react inside the tube, and then we have a membrane that keeps the enzyme inside okay. And then on the other side of the membrane we get hydrogen peroxide in an organic acid.

Okay, and is regular hydrogen peroxide made from petrochemicals like everything else is this Like, how do you get regular hydrogen peroxide?

Okay, and is regular hydrogen peroxide made from petrochemicals like everything else is this Like, how do you get regular hydrogen peroxide?

It's it's it's fairly fairly epic. Yeah, I've been to a couple hydroproxide plants. It's it's a super cool process, but it's one of those ones that's nuts.

It's it's it's fairly fairly epic. Yeah, I've been to a couple hydroproxide plants. It's it's a super cool process, but it's one of those ones that's nuts.

So they create this, give me this short version. What's the input, Like, does it starts as a fossil fuel.

So they create this, give me this short version. What's the input, Like, does it starts as a fossil fuel.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very hard to make because it's metastable. That's why it's so useful is that it wants to decompose, and when it decomposed it makes free radicals and that clean stuff, and so it makes it sort of difficult to make and you know somewhat you know, hazardous to make as well, right, and.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very hard to make because it's metastable. That's why it's so useful is that it wants to decompose, and when it decomposed it makes free radicals and that clean stuff, and so it makes it sort of difficult to make and you know somewhat you know, hazardous to make as well, right, and.

So is this is the enzyme you start with in your process based on Goreb's grad school thing, based on the enzyme in cancer cells that's making hydrogen peroxide.

So is this is the enzyme you start with in your process based on Goreb's grad school thing, based on the enzyme in cancer cells that's making hydrogen peroxide.

Yes, we were essentially taking i'll call them motifs, so essentially common motifs from what you would find in this like really wonky pancreatic cancer enzyme and then translating it to more industrial relevant enzyme.

Yes, we were essentially taking i'll call them motifs, so essentially common motifs from what you would find in this like really wonky pancreatic cancer enzyme and then translating it to more industrial relevant enzyme.

Huh. So basically you're starting with the pancreatic cancer enzyme and saying, how can we kind of use the tools of this enzyme to make an enzyme that we can put in our tube and have it do what we want exactly?

Huh. So basically you're starting with the pancreatic cancer enzyme and saying, how can we kind of use the tools of this enzyme to make an enzyme that we can put in our tube and have it do what we want exactly?

And what was pretty neat is like to me, the neatest part the relative scales here. So like on weekends we had like one gallon bottles of this peroxide organic acid mixture, and we would drive around Dallas and we'd pour it into people's hot tubs.

And what was pretty neat is like to me, the neatest part the relative scales here. So like on weekends we had like one gallon bottles of this peroxide organic acid mixture, and we would drive around Dallas and we'd pour it into people's hot tubs.

Right, So we were literally you're you're like not just yeah, you're like you're like the pool boys.

Right, So we were literally you're you're like not just yeah, you're like you're like the pool boys.

We were the pool We were the pool boys. Right. We had our three customers and they were super delighted. And uh and then we learned how to like do shipping online and we you know, started shipping to the other spots. But to make that one gallon bottle, we were only using like milligram quantities, like like little just like fine dust of enzyme.

We were the pool We were the pool boys. Right. We had our three customers and they were super delighted. And uh and then we learned how to like do shipping online and we you know, started shipping to the other spots. But to make that one gallon bottle, we were only using like milligram quantities, like like little just like fine dust of enzyme.

Well you're getting thousand x whatever for every unit of enzyme, you get a thousand or something units of exactly.

Well you're getting thousand x whatever for every unit of enzyme, you get a thousand or something units of exactly.

So like it's like a we're like selling this like you know really just like i mean barely minimum viable product, right, but like we're selling that product with like effectively like lab scale manufacturing of the actual catalyst.

So like it's like a we're like selling this like you know really just like i mean barely minimum viable product, right, but like we're selling that product with like effectively like lab scale manufacturing of the actual catalyst.

So you're doing it in this janky, small ass way, but you're actually doing this thing. You're making hydrogen peroxide.

So you're doing it in this janky, small ass way, but you're actually doing this thing. You're making hydrogen peroxide.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So okay, so so now we can fast forward a little bit. So right, so you you turn this you know, janky nights and weekend ideas into what is now a big, real company. Right, So so where are you now?

So okay, so so now we can fast forward a little bit. So right, so you you turn this you know, janky nights and weekend ideas into what is now a big, real company. Right, So so where are you now?

Yes, so where we are now? So I think, like I'll kind of throw out a couple of numbers. So last year we shipp two hundred million pounds of material. It was about fifty thousand pounds, and so we.

Yes, so where we are now? So I think, like I'll kind of throw out a couple of numbers. So last year we shipp two hundred million pounds of material. It was about fifty thousand pounds, and so we.

Have not driving around in your car anymore delivering it.

Have not driving around in your car anymore delivering it.

No, No, we actually move like railcars around now. So we've got we've got railcars, we've got tanker trucks, and we do a couple of different things. So we we manufacture our chemicals and bioforge one, which is our first commercial plant in Houston, Texas. It's about a ten thousand ton prior plant.

No, No, we actually move like railcars around now. So we've got we've got railcars, we've got tanker trucks, and we do a couple of different things. So we we manufacture our chemicals and bioforge one, which is our first commercial plant in Houston, Texas. It's about a ten thousand ton prior plant.

So what are what are you know, what are some of the things you sell and who do you sell it to? What are some of your big products?

So what are what are you know, what are some of the things you sell and who do you sell it to? What are some of your big products?

So the theme is still water. So this all started with you know, driving around pouring chemicals and people's hot tubs. Right. We still do water treatment today, so you can think of municipal water treatment like a wastewater treatment plant, cooling water towers that you see outside of like hospitals. In the energy sector, there's the stuff called produced water, which a lot of people don't really know about.

So the theme is still water. So this all started with you know, driving around pouring chemicals and people's hot tubs. Right. We still do water treatment today, so you can think of municipal water treatment like a wastewater treatment plant, cooling water towers that you see outside of like hospitals. In the energy sector, there's the stuff called produced water, which a lot of people don't really know about.

Every barrel comes it's what you get out of fracking. Like when you send the water into frack, it comes back and you got to deal with it.

Every barrel comes it's what you get out of fracking. Like when you send the water into frack, it comes back and you got to deal with it.

Yeah. The kind of the inside joke for the upstream oil and gas guys is that they're actually water companies that make a little bit of oil. Yeah. So you get you get like eight to ten barrels of water per barrel of oil, and you got to figure out what to do with this stuff, and you.

Yeah. The kind of the inside joke for the upstream oil and gas guys is that they're actually water companies that make a little bit of oil. Yeah. So you get you get like eight to ten barrels of water per barrel of oil, and you got to figure out what to do with this stuff, and you.

Gotta like it's nasty, you got to deal with it.

Gotta like it's nasty, you got to deal with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, So you're selling to people who need to treat water, what are you selling them?

Yeah, So you're selling to people who need to treat water, what are you selling them?

Yep? So we sell them HUDH from peroxide. Today we sell corrosion, can control, scale control biosides. It's sort of like a product portfolio, and our core chemistry that we make in Bioforge one is a component of all these stuff and is.

Yep? So we sell them HUDH from peroxide. Today we sell corrosion, can control, scale control biosides. It's sort of like a product portfolio, and our core chemistry that we make in Bioforge one is a component of all these stuff and is.

It a lot of hydrogen peroxide in terms of what you're actually making, is still hydrogen proxide like a core product.

It a lot of hydrogen peroxide in terms of what you're actually making, is still hydrogen proxide like a core product.

So our core product now is actually organic acids. Okay, yep, So we still sell HydroD peroxide. We're one of the largest sellers of peroxide in Texas actually, but we essentially progress the technology further where we actually use the HydroD peroxide that we make in process to actually make other chemicals. Aha.

So our core product now is actually organic acids. Okay, yep, So we still sell HydroD peroxide. We're one of the largest sellers of peroxide in Texas actually, but we essentially progress the technology further where we actually use the HydroD peroxide that we make in process to actually make other chemicals. Aha.

And so you mentioned Bioforge one. I mean what you have is essentially a chemical factory, right, You've built a chemical factory, but it's a new kind of chemical factory.

And so you mentioned Bioforge one. I mean what you have is essentially a chemical factory, right, You've built a chemical factory, but it's a new kind of chemical factory.

Yep.

Yep.

And so we talked about the like little lab scale version that you started with. Tell me about Bioforge one, about the chemical factory have? Now, just like I come up on the street, what do I see?

And so we talked about the like little lab scale version that you started with. Tell me about Bioforge one, about the chemical factory have? Now, just like I come up on the street, what do I see?

You see a big tube in the air that's like two school by is stacked on top of each other. And then you see like kind of like.

You see a big tube in the air that's like two school by is stacked on top of each other. And then you see like kind of like.

A metal like like a metal chimney.

A metal like like a metal chimney.

Or something, big big metal tube that's got all the enzymes inside. And then and then you see a pipe rack, like a big green pipe rack, and then a bunch.

Or something, big big metal tube that's got all the enzymes inside. And then and then you see a pipe rack, like a big green pipe rack, and then a bunch.

Of tanks and so and and what happens there? I mean, like, what's the You're not using oil or gas right as your input? What's your what's your input?

Of tanks and so and and what happens there? I mean, like, what's the You're not using oil or gas right as your input? What's your what's your input?

We consume railcars of corn syrup. Okay, so railcars of corn syrup come in to go into these tanks, and then we oxidize the corn syrup in our enzyme ractor. Okay, then we make what it's called a metastable intermediate. We oxize that metastable intermedia in our metal oxidation ractor. So sort of first ractor's Goora, second ractor.

We consume railcars of corn syrup. Okay, so railcars of corn syrup come in to go into these tanks, and then we oxidize the corn syrup in our enzyme ractor. Okay, then we make what it's called a metastable intermediate. We oxize that metastable intermedia in our metal oxidation ractor. So sort of first ractor's Goora, second ractor.

Sean, And what comes out is like some set of potential chemicals depending on what people are buying, a hydrogen peroxide or organic acid or whatever, you can sort of direct it.

Sean, And what comes out is like some set of potential chemicals depending on what people are buying, a hydrogen peroxide or organic acid or whatever, you can sort of direct it.

We're able to tune the product mix. Right now, we're focused on the modef you'll call glucaric acid, okay, and then you know, we put it in tags and we sell to people.

We're able to tune the product mix. Right now, we're focused on the modef you'll call glucaric acid, okay, and then you know, we put it in tags and we sell to people.

We'll be back in just a minute.

We'll be back in just a minute.

Mhm h.

Mhm h.

And so is the is the sort of core ongoing work that you're doing, like optimizing enzymes to make different chemicals? I mean, is that the fundamental sort of technical thing you are endlessly working on and trying to develop?

And so is the is the sort of core ongoing work that you're doing, like optimizing enzymes to make different chemicals? I mean, is that the fundamental sort of technical thing you are endlessly working on and trying to develop?

Yep. Yeah, So so it's actually just a handful of different enzymes and a handful of metal catalysts that you can then kind of like plug and play in the reactor to make all the different chemicals that you want.

Yep. Yeah, So so it's actually just a handful of different enzymes and a handful of metal catalysts that you can then kind of like plug and play in the reactor to make all the different chemicals that you want.

So do you feel like you're done on that side, like what do you what do you what are you trying to figure out in that in the sort of production side.

So do you feel like you're done on that side, like what do you what do you what are you trying to figure out in that in the sort of production side.

So, so what you're trying to do for at different states, Right, So at the plant level, what you're trying to do is run the plant for months and months and months continuously. You're trying to reduce your costs over time.

So, so what you're trying to do for at different states, Right, So at the plant level, what you're trying to do is run the plant for months and months and months continuously. You're trying to reduce your costs over time.

It's sort of classic industrial economics, like you want the plant to be producing all the time because you got to pay all this money for the plant and then it's not making a thing you can sell. That's bad.

It's sort of classic industrial economics, like you want the plant to be producing all the time because you got to pay all this money for the plant and then it's not making a thing you can sell. That's bad.

Yeah, And you're trying to show like you're trying to raise like project financings. So we just close the Department of Energies loan of.

Yeah, And you're trying to show like you're trying to raise like project financings. So we just close the Department of Energies loan of.

A lot of money, right, you just get loan for how.

A lot of money, right, you just get loan for how.

Much it was like a two hundred and fourteen million dollars. Yeah, and that's to build a second facility in Marshall, Minnesota.

Much it was like a two hundred and fourteen million dollars. Yeah, and that's to build a second facility in Marshall, Minnesota.

Okay.

Okay.

And so like for that type of later stage debt, what you need to show is not just like hey, I've got this stuff working in a lab, and not even that like hey I have this working at scale. It's that I'm making money at scale, right, that I'm running this thing for months and months and months years, and you know it's very reliable and the customers are satisfied.

And so like for that type of later stage debt, what you need to show is not just like hey, I've got this stuff working in a lab, and not even that like hey I have this working at scale. It's that I'm making money at scale, right, that I'm running this thing for months and months and months years, and you know it's very reliable and the customers are satisfied.

And so are you there on that one? Like like is the fact you built? I mean, I know, is it profitable is a complicated question based on different assumptions or whatever, but like is it profitable?

And so are you there on that one? Like like is the fact you built? I mean, I know, is it profitable is a complicated question based on different assumptions or whatever, but like is it profitable?

Yeah? Yeah? So actually was? It was really funny because when the Independent Engineer came to view so our first commercial plant. It's first commercial for soal Egen. For other folks, they would probably call it a demo plant.

Yeah? Yeah? So actually was? It was really funny because when the Independent Engineer came to view so our first commercial plant. It's first commercial for soal Egen. For other folks, they would probably call it a demo plant.

Because it's small given the scale of the petrochemical industry.

Because it's small given the scale of the petrochemical industry.

Yeah, it's only ten thousand tons per year, which is a pretty pretty small scale. Most most chemical plants are one hundred thousand tons per year, five hundred thousand. Some of them are like two million tons per year. They're crazy. And you know, the Independent year was like, yeah, I've been to like one hundred something demo plants. I've never been to one that's like cash flowing because typically people build these things, they run it for like the shortest amount of time to make the debt people happy, and then they turn the thing off because they lose money with every sale.

Yeah, it's only ten thousand tons per year, which is a pretty pretty small scale. Most most chemical plants are one hundred thousand tons per year, five hundred thousand. Some of them are like two million tons per year. They're crazy. And you know, the Independent year was like, yeah, I've been to like one hundred something demo plants. I've never been to one that's like cash flowing because typically people build these things, they run it for like the shortest amount of time to make the debt people happy, and then they turn the thing off because they lose money with every sale.

And is there is there a Is there a technical reason why you can have a smaller plant be profitable? Do you sell your product for more? Is there like a green premium on it?

And is there is there a Is there a technical reason why you can have a smaller plant be profitable? Do you sell your product for more? Is there like a green premium on it?

No, it's two things. So the first one is we're starting with specialty chemicals, not commodity chemicals. So like I don't want to be selling a molecule to somebody, I want to be selling a solution to the problem.

No, it's two things. So the first one is we're starting with specialty chemicals, not commodity chemicals. So like I don't want to be selling a molecule to somebody, I want to be selling a solution to the problem.

So the output the thing you're selling is has a higher markup built into it basically.

So the output the thing you're selling is has a higher markup built into it basically.

Yeah, and it's like we're going to market direct, We're not trying to sell their distribution, Okay. And then the second is that we can build small plants faster, right, So like we only have three unit ops, we don't have fifteen unit oups. We have higher yields. So, like, imagine, if you just go for simple math, if I have to buy, you know, one hundred pounds of raw material to make a hundred pounds of product, but my competitor has to buy two hundred pounds of raw material to make one hundred pounds of product, their cost structure is two x mine exactly.

Yeah, and it's like we're going to market direct, We're not trying to sell their distribution, Okay. And then the second is that we can build small plants faster, right, So like we only have three unit ops, we don't have fifteen unit oups. We have higher yields. So, like, imagine, if you just go for simple math, if I have to buy, you know, one hundred pounds of raw material to make a hundred pounds of product, but my competitor has to buy two hundred pounds of raw material to make one hundred pounds of product, their cost structure is two x mine exactly.

Okay, So I think you were giving me reasons you can be profitable at smaller scale, Are there more or are are we done with that?

Okay, So I think you were giving me reasons you can be profitable at smaller scale, Are there more or are are we done with that?

Well, I would say there's a there's also like a nuance and a caveat in terms of like how the chemicals industry works that I just find this to be particularly fascinating. So you can have structurally differentiated margins from the standpoint of like you know, saogen, it's better yields. That's great, But then what you don't want to do is compete against someone else's depreciated cabbex.

Well, I would say there's a there's also like a nuance and a caveat in terms of like how the chemicals industry works that I just find this to be particularly fascinating. So you can have structurally differentiated margins from the standpoint of like you know, saogen, it's better yields. That's great, But then what you don't want to do is compete against someone else's depreciated cabbex.

Right, meaning they built the factory thirty years ago, they don't have to pay for it anymore, so they can just essentially treat it as free, and then they will always be able to underprice you exactly.

Right, meaning they built the factory thirty years ago, they don't have to pay for it anymore, so they can just essentially treat it as free, and then they will always be able to underprice you exactly.

They've got a really diversified set of chemicals that they're making, and so like if you try to go head to head against them.

They've got a really diversified set of chemicals that they're making, and so like if you try to go head to head against them.

A conglomerate like Dow or do Pont, like a giant chemical company that I have heard of, even though I don't know about this.

A conglomerate like Dow or do Pont, like a giant chemical company that I have heard of, even though I don't know about this.

Business exactly, right, So, like, if you start going in there and putting new chemicals on the market, right and lowering that price as a result, they can actually run at a loss for years forever forever.

Business exactly, right, So, like, if you start going in there and putting new chemicals on the market, right and lowering that price as a result, they can actually run at a loss for years forever forever.

They don't they could the amount of revenue that you have is so trivial to them that they could just underprice.

They don't they could the amount of revenue that you have is so trivial to them that they could just underprice.

You forever exactly, and so like like it's one of the things I find the most fun about the chemicals industry is like the market tree strategy on Like, well what because I gets all, like we can we have all sorts of patterns on all these different chemicals. It's like what do you launch first? What do you launch second? Like why are you launching these chemicals next?

You forever exactly, and so like like it's one of the things I find the most fun about the chemicals industry is like the market tree strategy on Like, well what because I gets all, like we can we have all sorts of patterns on all these different chemicals. It's like what do you launch first? What do you launch second? Like why are you launching these chemicals next?

And well, like it reminds me of the hydrogen peroxide for the float spot, right, It's like this weird little market that really cares and that you can sell at a premium to. I mean, have you essentially been able to keep doing that in kind of broader concentric circles, bigger markets.

And well, like it reminds me of the hydrogen peroxide for the float spot, right, It's like this weird little market that really cares and that you can sell at a premium to. I mean, have you essentially been able to keep doing that in kind of broader concentric circles, bigger markets.

That that's precisely it, And so like our most immediate goal is like have a network of bioforges that are selling specialty chemicals that are paying for themselves, they're depreciating, they're profitable, and then we come back around and we start bolting on the capabilities to make more of the commodity chemicals in the future.

That that's precisely it, And so like our most immediate goal is like have a network of bioforges that are selling specialty chemicals that are paying for themselves, they're depreciating, they're profitable, and then we come back around and we start bolting on the capabilities to make more of the commodity chemicals in the future.

So like right now, like why I get why the float spot people were willing to pay you more for hydrogen proxide. Why are people willing? Like, what is it that you're selling now that is like, you know, you're particularly able to sell at a profit at the scale you're at now.

So like right now, like why I get why the float spot people were willing to pay you more for hydrogen proxide. Why are people willing? Like, what is it that you're selling now that is like, you know, you're particularly able to sell at a profit at the scale you're at now.

Yes, So let's talk about on the water treatment side. Yeah, So on the water treatment side, let's say you're a municipality and you're trying to clean up your water. If ultimately what you're measuring is like, here's my cost and I'm spending on chemicals to get my water clean And if we come in with a package that is cheaper than how much you're spending to get that same cleanliness, that's a valuebrole. That's price per performance. Sure. And then the second is security of supply. So a lot of these different chemicals are all made in China and they spend eight weeks on the water. And then I would say sustainability tends to be the third. But we're never essentially selling chemicals at a premium. We're trying to match or be better than price and performance.

Yes, So let's talk about on the water treatment side. Yeah, So on the water treatment side, let's say you're a municipality and you're trying to clean up your water. If ultimately what you're measuring is like, here's my cost and I'm spending on chemicals to get my water clean And if we come in with a package that is cheaper than how much you're spending to get that same cleanliness, that's a valuebrole. That's price per performance. Sure. And then the second is security of supply. So a lot of these different chemicals are all made in China and they spend eight weeks on the water. And then I would say sustainability tends to be the third. But we're never essentially selling chemicals at a premium. We're trying to match or be better than price and performance.

And can you can do as good or better on price because you're disintermediating essentially, because for other sellers it's sort of going through multiple middlemen who are all taking a cut, and you can make the final product. You can go from input to final product exactly.

And can you can do as good or better on price because you're disintermediating essentially, because for other sellers it's sort of going through multiple middlemen who are all taking a cut, and you can make the final product. You can go from input to final product exactly.

So like if we think about like a municipality can't take that supply chain risk. They can't wait eight weeks on the water for chemicals to come, so it has to go through distribution. And so a lot of the chemicals that we compete against today that are imported from China, they like we estimate they change hands on average about five times before they reach that end US customer.

So like if we think about like a municipality can't take that supply chain risk. They can't wait eight weeks on the water for chemicals to come, so it has to go through distribution. And so a lot of the chemicals that we compete against today that are imported from China, they like we estimate they change hands on average about five times before they reach that end US customer.

Okay, And as Bezo said, their margin is your opportunity. Sure, so let's talk about this sort of medium term right, So you're now, well, what's what more or less your revenue now?

Okay, And as Bezo said, their margin is your opportunity. Sure, so let's talk about this sort of medium term right, So you're now, well, what's what more or less your revenue now?

So magnitude so we're we're on the order of one hundred million a year.

So magnitude so we're we're on the order of one hundred million a year.

Okay, So, like definitely a real business. But the scale of the petrochemical industry is giant, what hundreds of billions a year, maybe trillions a year.

Okay, So, like definitely a real business. But the scale of the petrochemical industry is giant, what hundreds of billions a year, maybe trillions a year.

Globally or globally it's in the trillions.

Globally or globally it's in the trillions.

Yeah. So I mean, is your dream that you will be the like Dow chemical of the new century, Like, is that is that the big dream?

Yeah. So I mean, is your dream that you will be the like Dow chemical of the new century, Like, is that is that the big dream?

Yeah? I mean I would say, the big dream is decarbonization of chemicals, right, and sort of I don't think these that chemical plant should be this sort of like pariah where you don't want them around you or in your community. Like manufacturing is essential to supporting all of us, and so like what I see is sort of like this network of sustainable manufacturing plants that you know, people view as safe, maybe them as a good part of the community. They create clean, green jobs, They're making chemicals that support our families. Uh, and you know, they're not harming the planet. And I think the technology exists to do that today, and every year it's getting better and better. And so you know, what I view as the role of solugen is like how do we get those technologies to scale as fast as possible and get those products, you know, seeding the chemicals transition as quickly as possible.

Yeah? I mean I would say, the big dream is decarbonization of chemicals, right, and sort of I don't think these that chemical plant should be this sort of like pariah where you don't want them around you or in your community. Like manufacturing is essential to supporting all of us, and so like what I see is sort of like this network of sustainable manufacturing plants that you know, people view as safe, maybe them as a good part of the community. They create clean, green jobs, They're making chemicals that support our families. Uh, and you know, they're not harming the planet. And I think the technology exists to do that today, and every year it's getting better and better. And so you know, what I view as the role of solugen is like how do we get those technologies to scale as fast as possible and get those products, you know, seeding the chemicals transition as quickly as possible.

Anybody else doing what you're doing, Like it seems to make a lot of sense. I'm sold that it makes sense. Are there people trying to do what you're trying to do?

Anybody else doing what you're doing, Like it seems to make a lot of sense. I'm sold that it makes sense. Are there people trying to do what you're trying to do?

Yeah, I mean so so, Like I think sustainable chemistry, green chemistry in general, there's all sorts of people that are in this space. Like I know you talked to C sixteen rights as an example, and so that's a fermentation approach to make oils, and.

Yeah, I mean so so, Like I think sustainable chemistry, green chemistry in general, there's all sorts of people that are in this space. Like I know you talked to C sixteen rights as an example, and so that's a fermentation approach to make oils, and.

So yes, I mean that's a very niche. It seems like a different niche, but yeah, it's an interesting comparison.

So yes, I mean that's a very niche. It seems like a different niche, but yeah, it's an interesting comparison.

Yeah. Well, well it's just there's a lot of people in the space. I would say Solugen From a technology standpoint, I think at this point we're broadly what I would consider like an N of one company. We've captured a lot of the IP patent white space, We've gotten the scale very quickly, and you know our roadmap in front of us right now, I'm coining idea to tacker truck. So I want to I want to take an idea from a lab and I want to get it to a tacker truck scale in like eighteen months.

Yeah. Well, well it's just there's a lot of people in the space. I would say Solugen From a technology standpoint, I think at this point we're broadly what I would consider like an N of one company. We've captured a lot of the IP patent white space, We've gotten the scale very quickly, and you know our roadmap in front of us right now, I'm coining idea to tacker truck. So I want to I want to take an idea from a lab and I want to get it to a tacker truck scale in like eighteen months.

And how long does it take you now?

And how long does it take you now?

So for our first idea attacker truck, I guess was twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one.

So for our first idea attacker truck, I guess was twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one.

That's hydrogen peroxide. That was like home deep ot to tanker.

That's hydrogen peroxide. That was like home deep ot to tanker.

Truck exactly right. And then I now, with all the capabilities we built in Houston, I think we can do it in eighteen months. If you look at sort of historical chemicals industry idea, A tanker truck is like a ten year process. So now we've got this whole white space that uses enzymes and metal catalysts to convert corn to chemicals.

Truck exactly right. And then I now, with all the capabilities we built in Houston, I think we can do it in eighteen months. If you look at sort of historical chemicals industry idea, A tanker truck is like a ten year process. So now we've got this whole white space that uses enzymes and metal catalysts to convert corn to chemicals.

So it's the idea, not only can you make, you know, make from corn what people have been making from fossil fuels, but also maybe there's a whole new universe of things that you can make.

So it's the idea, not only can you make, you know, make from corn what people have been making from fossil fuels, but also maybe there's a whole new universe of things that you can make.

There's a whole new universal molecules that we can make. So like, like one I'll throw out there is like, so when we make lucaric acid, we go through this metastable intermediate and it's a weird molecule. It's called gluco dialdos, very strange molecule. You can't even buy this on the internet and like gram quantities so weird.

There's a whole new universal molecules that we can make. So like, like one I'll throw out there is like, so when we make lucaric acid, we go through this metastable intermediate and it's a weird molecule. It's called gluco dialdos, very strange molecule. You can't even buy this on the internet and like gram quantities so weird.

You cannot buy it on the internet.

You cannot buy it on the internet.

Cannot buy it on the internet, right, And that's I mean, if you can't buy it on the internet, it must be it does it even exist? Right? We we happen to accidentally make thousands of tons per year of this and it's like we're processing it forward to glucoric acid because we have all these customers for glucoric acid but like each molecule that we make goes through this really unique intermediate. There's a whole world of opportunity there in terms of all these different sort of under do.

Cannot buy it on the internet, right, And that's I mean, if you can't buy it on the internet, it must be it does it even exist? Right? We we happen to accidentally make thousands of tons per year of this and it's like we're processing it forward to glucoric acid because we have all these customers for glucoric acid but like each molecule that we make goes through this really unique intermediate. There's a whole world of opportunity there in terms of all these different sort of under do.

You think it might be good for? Like take a guess.

You think it might be good for? Like take a guess.

Okay, so here's a fascinating one. It is so figure glucose is sugar, right, that's what you're making. I mean we all live off a glucose, right. Glucodados is glucose with two audehydes and it's actually biasidal, so it actually kills bacteria. And so like one of the molecules that is sort of a big market in some of the space we service called glutter aldehyde. It's it's got two autehydes and it's made from oil. Could you use glucodiados to replace gluter aldehyde? And now you have like a sugar that is some how toxic and can kill bugs and like clean and disinfect Like that's crazy, And so you know this is like if this to me is like a really key one on the chemical transition. Right. So it's just like the energy transition, the chemical transitions, like how do we get sustainable chemicals into all the products around us? All the things that we use every day right right now, they're all made from oil, coal, natural gas. How do we steadily introduce biomanufactured and recycled circular materials versions of those into them over time.

Okay, so here's a fascinating one. It is so figure glucose is sugar, right, that's what you're making. I mean we all live off a glucose, right. Glucodados is glucose with two audehydes and it's actually biasidal, so it actually kills bacteria. And so like one of the molecules that is sort of a big market in some of the space we service called glutter aldehyde. It's it's got two autehydes and it's made from oil. Could you use glucodiados to replace gluter aldehyde? And now you have like a sugar that is some how toxic and can kill bugs and like clean and disinfect Like that's crazy, And so you know this is like if this to me is like a really key one on the chemical transition. Right. So it's just like the energy transition, the chemical transitions, like how do we get sustainable chemicals into all the products around us? All the things that we use every day right right now, they're all made from oil, coal, natural gas. How do we steadily introduce biomanufactured and recycled circular materials versions of those into them over time.

So that we don't have to make them from fossil fuels anymore?

So that we don't have to make them from fossil fuels anymore?

Exactly? And you know, if I give you a concrete example is actually the Biden Bioeconomy Executive Order. This was from about two years ago. This one. It calls for thirty percent of all US chemicals to be biomanufactured in the next twenty years. So like that essentially sets a target for the chemicals transition. It says, hey, in twenty years, thirty percent of the products should have like thirty percent of them biomanufactured over that time frame. That's you we're trying.

Exactly? And you know, if I give you a concrete example is actually the Biden Bioeconomy Executive Order. This was from about two years ago. This one. It calls for thirty percent of all US chemicals to be biomanufactured in the next twenty years. So like that essentially sets a target for the chemicals transition. It says, hey, in twenty years, thirty percent of the products should have like thirty percent of them biomanufactured over that time frame. That's you we're trying.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. Let's do the lightning round. I understand earlier in your career you were a cocoa puff engineer at General Mills.

We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. Let's do the lightning round. I understand earlier in your career you were a cocoa puff engineer at General Mills.

That's true, yes, yes.

That's true, yes, yes.

What was the hardest cocoa puff problem you worked on?

What was the hardest cocoa puff problem you worked on?

So? So coco puffs. What I love about it is it's a late stage capitalism, and so they've been around since nineteen fifties, and so what we were focused on was how do you make the cocoa puff glossy and frosty for different markets? So different geographies have a different visual appeal for like should it be frostier, should it be glossier?

So? So coco puffs. What I love about it is it's a late stage capitalism, and so they've been around since nineteen fifties, and so what we were focused on was how do you make the cocoa puff glossy and frosty for different markets? So different geographies have a different visual appeal for like should it be frostier, should it be glossier?

Meaning in different places people have different.

Meaning in different places people have different.

Preferences, They have different preferences, and so so the the US is shiny and not particularly frosty, okay, but then Southeast Asia is actually more frosty than Matt huh yeah.

Preferences, They have different preferences, and so so the the US is shiny and not particularly frosty, okay, but then Southeast Asia is actually more frosty than Matt huh yeah.

And you have to sort of change the chemistry to deliver it to.

And you have to sort of change the chemistry to deliver it to.

Because you're you're crystallizing sugar on top of kick cereal. That's what cocoa puffs is, and so you have to tune the crystallization process to make it shiny or frostier. Mat And so I actually like coated cocoa puffs and gold and put them in scanning electron microscopes.

Because you're you're crystallizing sugar on top of kick cereal. That's what cocoa puffs is, and so you have to tune the crystallization process to make it shiny or frostier. Mat And so I actually like coated cocoa puffs and gold and put them in scanning electron microscopes.

Coated them with literal gold.

Coated them with literal gold.

With literal gold, and I have I have a whole lots of gold. Why not is the question?

With literal gold, and I have I have a whole lots of gold. Why not is the question?

Will you still have gold cocoa puffs?

Will you still have gold cocoa puffs?

Oh?

Oh?

Absolutely, that's amazing.

Absolutely, that's amazing.

Yeah, they're pretty cool.

Yeah, they're pretty cool.

Hard to imagine you will ever do anything that meaningful again.

Hard to imagine you will ever do anything that meaningful again.

But good luck it was. It was my most delicious time in my career.

But good luck it was. It was my most delicious time in my career.

Did you eat a gold cocoa puff?

Did you eat a gold cocoa puff?

Yeah? Yeah, they're totally harmless, so yeah, right, you can eat gold, any gold?

Yeah? Yeah, they're totally harmless, so yeah, right, you can eat gold, any gold?

Yeah, why not? I suppose as an engineer, what cereal do you admire the most other than cocoa puffs?

Yeah, why not? I suppose as an engineer, what cereal do you admire the most other than cocoa puffs?

So as a food product, I admire gushers the most.

So as a food product, I admire gushers the most.

Gusher So they're like kind of a gooey candy and you bite into it in some liquid.

Gusher So they're like kind of a gooey candy and you bite into it in some liquid.

Shot some liquid shots out. It's an exceptionally innovative, complex manufacturing process that was like specially built to make gushers. We're getting all the rain.

Shot some liquid shots out. It's an exceptionally innovative, complex manufacturing process that was like specially built to make gushers. We're getting all the rain.

Oh does that sound rain on the roof of the trailer.

Oh does that sound rain on the roof of the trailer.

Yeah yeah, it's really coming down now.

Yeah yeah, it's really coming down now.

Okay, home depot or lows.

Okay, home depot or lows.

So so home depot for wood, lows for plumbing parts.

So so home depot for wood, lows for plumbing parts.

Huh. That is a that is a robust answer. That's a varsity answer. Just better prices, better selection.

Huh. That is a that is a robust answer. That's a varsity answer. Just better prices, better selection.

I think it's about selection for for both of them, because like if you're going to home deep or Lows, you're in a jam. Like that means I messed up on my parts ordering list and something didn't come in I see, and so I'm like quickly running out there.

I think it's about selection for for both of them, because like if you're going to home deep or Lows, you're in a jam. Like that means I messed up on my parts ordering list and something didn't come in I see, and so I'm like quickly running out there.

So you actually go to home depot or loads to like build your one hundred million dollars a year factory. Oh yeah, so you're going for real, I am just screwing around at home depot. You have high stakes when you go to home depot or low.

So you actually go to home depot or loads to like build your one hundred million dollars a year factory. Oh yeah, so you're going for real, I am just screwing around at home depot. You have high stakes when you go to home depot or low.

Well, so typical. If I need apart from home depoer loads, it's because like I really messed up the design of some aspect, and it's like we're really going to do like a patchwork job to just try to get it going.

Well, so typical. If I need apart from home depoer loads, it's because like I really messed up the design of some aspect, and it's like we're really going to do like a patchwork job to just try to get it going.

Yes, what's the most underrated chemical?

Yes, what's the most underrated chemical?

I mean, I don't think the public appreciates any of the chemicals that they use every day or really like how important they are and all the work and effort that goes into making them. Like what's astounding to me is if I look at a bottle of water on a store shelves, it blows my mind because the effort in making that plastic and the science is so complex and the costs are so astronomical, and yet you're buying it for the water.

I mean, I don't think the public appreciates any of the chemicals that they use every day or really like how important they are and all the work and effort that goes into making them. Like what's astounding to me is if I look at a bottle of water on a store shelves, it blows my mind because the effort in making that plastic and the science is so complex and the costs are so astronomical, and yet you're buying it for the water.

You're just saying, the bottle alone is an engineering miracle.

You're just saying, the bottle alone is an engineering miracle.

The bottle loans an engineering miracle because it's an incredible material and it's so crystal and everything like like that plastic has a higher specification than pharmaceuticals in terms of purity, and yet we're just being like it's for water and the bottles free.

The bottle loans an engineering miracle because it's an incredible material and it's so crystal and everything like like that plastic has a higher specification than pharmaceuticals in terms of purity, and yet we're just being like it's for water and the bottles free.

It's garbage. It's basically garbage.

It's garbage. It's basically garbage.

It's mind blowing to be still, do you.

It's mind blowing to be still, do you.

Have a white whale? Is there one chemical you really want to be able to sell that you haven't figured out yet?

Have a white whale? Is there one chemical you really want to be able to sell that you haven't figured out yet?

So I think it's two, So nylon And like my dream, there is actually cardboard as the feedstock. So cardboard recycled cardboard is actually like just sugar polymers. It's the same thing as starts from corn. So it's actually a really great feedstock for us, just.

So I think it's two, So nylon And like my dream, there is actually cardboard as the feedstock. So cardboard recycled cardboard is actually like just sugar polymers. It's the same thing as starts from corn. So it's actually a really great feedstock for us, just.

Like a cardboard box that I break down.

Like a cardboard box that I break down.

Yeah, because cardboard it gets recycled like twelve times from cradle to cradle, but the fibers get smaller and smaller and it eventually gets land filled or burned. Those really small fibers would be incredible feedstocks for our plant. And then we have a process technology for making nylon, and so to me, it's like it would just be like to me, that's like a total end state of like just victory. If we're doing cardboard to nylon.

Yeah, because cardboard it gets recycled like twelve times from cradle to cradle, but the fibers get smaller and smaller and it eventually gets land filled or burned. Those really small fibers would be incredible feedstocks for our plant. And then we have a process technology for making nylon, and so to me, it's like it would just be like to me, that's like a total end state of like just victory. If we're doing cardboard to nylon.

I feel like you should call Patagonia. I feel like they'll pay a premium for that.

I feel like you should call Patagonia. I feel like they'll pay a premium for that.

I know. Do you know the challenge that with all these clothing retailers is like that's where the sustainability impact is, but they buy just like a fractional percent of the volume in the market.

I know. Do you know the challenge that with all these clothing retailers is like that's where the sustainability impact is, but they buy just like a fractional percent of the volume in the market.

So you need to figure out how to do it for real and not rely on the green premium and actually use garbage cardboard to make good nylon that you can sell at a commodity.

So you need to figure out how to do it for real and not rely on the green premium and actually use garbage cardboard to make good nylon that you can sell at a commodity.

Price and then figure like most nylon manufacturers in China, it's depreciated assets. Now you're gonna build this whole brand new, shiny thing to go do it, so you have you have all of those types of issues and everything.

Price and then figure like most nylon manufacturers in China, it's depreciated assets. Now you're gonna build this whole brand new, shiny thing to go do it, so you have you have all of those types of issues and everything.

Hence the white whale.

Hence the white whale.

He's the white whale. But I think I think we can eventually get there. Like to me, that's like I've got forty years of work ahead of me, right, I think we can do that one coming out here.

He's the white whale. But I think I think we can eventually get there. Like to me, that's like I've got forty years of work ahead of me, right, I think we can do that one coming out here.

I like the long view. So your co founder says, and this is a quote, if I if I've got it right, you're terrible at poker.

I like the long view. So your co founder says, and this is a quote, if I if I've got it right, you're terrible at poker.

Yeah true, yeah, yeah, no, I'm I'm really there to crack jokes, to have a good time, to drink some beer, and to lose a predetermined amount of money.

Yeah true, yeah, yeah, no, I'm I'm really there to crack jokes, to have a good time, to drink some beer, and to lose a predetermined amount of money.

Oh you're great for everybody else, So everybody loves to see you walk up to the table.

Oh you're great for everybody else, So everybody loves to see you walk up to the table.

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm always invited. I have a fun one for you. You know. I'm a semi professional juggler.

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm always invited. I have a fun one for you. You know. I'm a semi professional juggler.

Like, what's the frontier of your Wait, what a semi professional mean? In the context of juggling, you get paid sometimes.