This week is part two with Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor, authors of End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World. They discuss Peter Thiel’s billionaire gathering called the Apocalypse Ball, how Silicon Valley’s AI arms race borrows from religious promises of salvation and fears of the end of the world, and how cozy billionaires and tech companies are getting with the Trump administration.

They also get into the rapid acceleration of AI data centers, the dystopian growing relationship between Big Tech and the military, and who pays the price for billionaires’ visions of the future. Plus, Naomi and Astra explain how communities are fighting back, and how collective action can turn apocalyptic dread into something more useful than waiting for the world to end.

SOURCE

End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World

This week is part two with Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor, authors of End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World. They discuss Peter Thiel&rsquo;s billionaire gathering called the Apocalypse Ball, how Silicon Valley&rsquo;s AI arms race borrows from religious promises of salvation and fears of the end of the world, and how cozy billionaires and tech companies are getting with the Trump administration.
They also get into the rapid acceleration of AI data centers, the dystopian growing relationship between Big Tech and the military, and who pays the price for billionaires&rsquo; visions of the future. Plus, Naomi and Astra explain how communities are fighting back, and how collective action can turn apocalyptic dread into something more useful than waiting for the world to end.
SOURCE
<a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/end-times-fascism-and-the-fight-for-the-living-world-astra-taylor/66802b8005ce0f8f?ean=9780374621384&amp;utm_source=google&amp;utm_medium=cpc&amp;utm_campaign={campaignname}&amp;utm_content=6443417794&amp;gad_source=1&amp;gad_campaignid=16235479093&amp;gbraid=0AAAAACfld41ZE55BwJOE3yc8BKxtAi-WY&amp;gclid=Cj0KCQiAnsvXBhCqARIsAHKgGNYCNBWTBQ9JwJJlzRk2WGFT2XNjH97pBRaQcQRtTkXyk1ZijCWrhBwaAjyIEALw_wcB" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374621407/endtimesfascism/?gad_source%3D1%26gad_campaignid%3D24395122537%26gbraid%3D0AAAAArEhehdoxeZB-sQnJNz58Pj3MYW63%26gclid%3DCjwKCAiAhqHXBhAXEiwATbksU5NqkCi4dbzI00njO90YSc9v3G1vUTgrwAZEf3Os-iPNa0DLiQcwoBoC7sIQAvD_BwE&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1794327944222000&amp;usg=AOvVaw3OO39pozIcwynwIXUTwNIt">End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World</a>

Naomi Klein & Astra Taylor, Part 2 - Billionaires, Big Tech, and the Power of Collective Action

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/06125d84-b705-425b-a9b8-b4ff001175ae/transcript

Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor join the show to discuss their new book End Times Fascism: And the Fight For the Living World, an investigation into the apocalyptic thinking of the American contemporary right. In part one, they discuss the rise of Christian Nationalism to political power in the United States, why Zionists from different religious backgrounds want to remove Palestinians from their homes for very different reasons, and how religious apocalyptic thinking inverts morality and makes human suffering seem good and necessary to bring about the end of the world.

They talk about how the people rising to power seem to be the most manic and cartoonish, how far-right movements scapegoat outgroups like immigrants, and why fascism capitalizes on nostalgia for better times–even if that nostalgia is for a reality that wasn’t ever quite real.

SOURCE

End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World

Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor join the show to discuss their new book End Times Fascism: And the Fight For the Living World, an investigation into the apocalyptic thinking of the American contemporary right. In part one, they discuss the rise of Christian Nationalism to political power in the United States, why Zionists from different religious backgrounds want to remove Palestinians from their homes for very different reasons, and how religious apocalyptic thinking inverts morality and makes human suffering seem good and necessary to bring about the end of the world. They talk about how the people rising to power seem to be the most manic and cartoonish, how far-right movements scapegoat outgroups like immigrants, and why fascism capitalizes on nostalgia for better times&ndash;even if that nostalgia is for a reality that wasn&rsquo;t ever quite real.
SOURCE
<a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374621407/endtimesfascism/?gad_source=1&amp;gad_campaignid=24395122537&amp;gbraid=0AAAAArEhehdoxeZB-sQnJNz58Pj3MYW63&amp;gclid=CjwKCAiAhqHXBhAXEiwATbksU5NqkCi4dbzI00njO90YSc9v3G1vUTgrwAZEf3Os-iPNa0DLiQcwoBoC7sIQAvD_BwE">End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World</a>

Naomi Klein & Astra Taylor, Part 1 - The Rise of Christian Nationalism, the “Third Temple,” and End Times Fascism

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/8ad6f28b-dd13-40ff-b606-b4f6017aff87/transcript

This week is part two with Makelle Bistline, one of polygamist cult leader Sam Bateman’s former wives who helped take him down from the inside. She returns to share how she finally relented and became Bateman’s 22nd wife after he wore down her resistance with pressure and isolation, how Bateman systematically married all the women and girls in her family, and when she began to notice Sam's troubling behavior with the underage girls.

Makelle explains how she began secretly collaborating with Dr. Christine Marie (Lola’s mom) to collect evidence for the authorities, and what it was like living through the FBI raid that changed everything. She also discusses how her friendship with Nomz Bistline has evolved through this experience, why she chose not to appear in the Netflix documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, and how she's doing now.

This week is part two with Makelle Bistline, one of polygamist cult leader Sam Bateman&rsquo;s former wives who helped take him down from the inside. She returns to share how she finally relented and became Bateman&rsquo;s 22nd wife after he wore down her resistance with pressure and isolation, how Bateman systematically married all the women and girls in her family, and when she began to notice Sam's troubling behavior with the underage girls. Makelle explains how she began secretly collaborating with Dr. Christine Marie (Lola&rsquo;s mom) to collect evidence for the authorities, and what it was like living through the FBI raid that changed everything. She also discusses how her friendship with Nomz Bistline has evolved through this experience, why she chose not to appear in the Netflix documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, and how she's doing now.

Makelle Bistline, Part 2 - Becoming Sam Bateman’s Wife, Keeping Secrets from a “Prophet,” and Helping the FBI Take Him Down

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/dba767cb-e68d-4c8d-9551-b4ef0151c854/transcript

This week’s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman–ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola’s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs’ teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet.

Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she’d been taught about the outside world, the waysshe resisted Bateman’s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she’ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola’s mom and passing evidence to authorities.

This week&rsquo;s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman&ndash;ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola&rsquo;s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs&rsquo; teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet. Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she&rsquo;d been taught about the outside world, the ways she resisted Bateman&rsquo;s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she&rsquo;ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola&rsquo;s mom and passing evidence to authorities.

Makelle Bistline, Part 1 - The FLDS, Marrying Sam Bateman, and Resisting Control Through Taylor Swift

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/c2f7f3c1-4470-424e-9134-b4e80176e49e/transcript

This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.

Felicia shares more about Larry’s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she’s built for herself since—as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors one can point to in court toestablish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they’ve just experienced something traumatic.

SOURCES

Felicia Rosario Consulting

This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time&nbsp;by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.
Felicia shares more about Larry&rsquo;s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she&rsquo;s built for herself since&mdash;as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors&nbsp;one can point to in court to establish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they&rsquo;ve just experienced something traumatic.
SOURCES
<a href="https://www.feliciarosario.com/">Felicia Rosario Consulting</a>

Felicia Rosario - Larry Ray’s Coercive Tactics, Life After the Sarah Lawrence Cult, and Becoming an Expert Witness

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/63cd2d89-2d80-4a43-a61a-b4e2014f5e8e/transcript

This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA’s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways—all in the name of patriotism and “fighting communism.”

Stephen describes Gottlieb’s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word “brainwashing” can’t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.

Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).

SOURCES

Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control

 

This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA&rsquo;s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways&mdash;all in the name of patriotism and &ldquo;fighting communism.&rdquo;
Stephen describes Gottlieb&rsquo;s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word &ldquo;brainwashing&rdquo; can&rsquo;t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.
Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).
SOURCES
<a href="https://stephenkinzer.com/2019/08/poisoner-in-chief-sidney-gottlieb-and-the-cia-search-for-mind-control/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://stephenkinzer.com/2019/08/poisoner-in-chief-sidney-gottlieb-and-the-cia-search-for-mind-control/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1791405306160000&amp;usg=AOvVaw3SHHAtSshU-qxgSP8dCUG2">Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control</a>
&nbsp;

Stephen Kinzer - MKUltra, Sidney Gottlieb, and the CIA’s Hunt For Mind Control

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/b664f94f-953d-412a-8d0e-b4db014b4782/transcript

This week is part two with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, who sued the Jesus Christians, aka the “kidney cult,” after they recruited her daughter. Last week, Renee explained how she realized her daughter Ellicia’s communication was being controlled, and this week she picks back up on Ellicia’s mysterious whereabouts around the world--going wherever the group sent her, cutting off emotional contact, and virtually disappearing from Renee's life.

Renee shares how the group’s leader, Dave McKay, began accusing her of being a Satan worshipper, which was used to demonize her and keep Ellicia away. Renee shares how she’s connected with other parents, what she learned about some of the things her daughter has been through (including their highly punitive “grievance” system), and how Renee finally took Dave McKay to court.

SOURCES

Recover From Coercive Control

SOCCHG

CIFS Australia

This week is part two with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, who sued the Jesus Christians, aka the &ldquo;kidney cult,&rdquo; after they recruited her daughter. Last week, Renee explained how she realized her daughter Ellicia&rsquo;s communication was being controlled, and this week she picks back up on Ellicia&rsquo;s mysterious whereabouts around the world--going wherever the group sent her, cutting off emotional contact, and virtually disappearing from Renee's life.
Renee shares how the group&rsquo;s leader, Dave McKay, began accusing her of being a Satan worshipper, which was used to demonize her and keep Ellicia away. Renee shares how she&rsquo;s connected with other parents, what she learned about some of the things her daughter has been through (including their highly punitive &ldquo;grievance&rdquo; system), and how Renee finally took Dave McKay to court.
SOURCES
<a href="https://www.recoverfromcoercivecontrol.com/about-recover-from-coercive-control" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.recoverfromcoercivecontrol.com/about-recover-from-coercive-control&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1790817267898000&amp;usg=AOvVaw0mPhAouulHfBkjvWVN1wZZ">Recover From Coercive Control</a>
<a href="https://www.socchg.org/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.socchg.org/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1790817267898000&amp;usg=AOvVaw07YMltkEbd1qd_70fr3-F6">SOCCHG</a>
<a href="https://www.cifs.org.au/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.cifs.org.au/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1790817267898000&amp;usg=AOvVaw2kUFgJlghkqhlmyW-pkJgp">CIFS Australia</a>

Renee Spencer, Part 2 - The Jesus Christians, the “Kidney Cult,” and Suing Your Daughter’s Religious Group

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/9113ba85-2c84-4112-9e30-b4d3017b447c/transcript

This week is part 1 with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, whose daughter was recruited into the Jesus Christians: a group commonly referred to as the “kidney cult” for their practice of encouraging members to donate their kidneys to strangers. Renee shares about her and her daughter Ellicia’s close relationship, how Ellicia suddenly stopped contacting Renee, and why Renee tried to be accepting of her daughter’s choices–even while slowly learning that Ellicia had joined a mysterious group of traveling Christians and was being isolated from her former life.

She explains how Ellicia was initially recruited through YouTube, how Ellicia told Renee she was engaged to someone from the group after just a couple of months, and the minimal contact Renee was allowed when she visited. They discuss what she learned about Ellicia’s new husband Joseph, the whipping “trials” the group’s leader had organized to teach Joseph’s family a lesson, and how Renee discovered that her daughter’s communication had been far more controlled than she even realized.

This week is part 1 with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, whose daughter was recruited into the Jesus Christians: a group commonly referred to as the &ldquo;kidney cult&rdquo; for their practice of encouraging members to donate their kidneys to strangers. Renee shares about her and her daughter Ellicia&rsquo;s close relationship, how Ellicia suddenly stopped contacting Renee, and why Renee tried to be accepting of her daughter&rsquo;s choices&ndash;even while slowly learning that Ellicia had joined a mysterious group of traveling Christians and was being isolated from her former life.
She explains how Ellicia was initially recruited through YouTube, how Ellicia told Renee she was engaged to someone from the group after just a couple of months, and the minimal contact Renee was allowed when she visited. They discuss what she learned about Ellicia&rsquo;s new husband Joseph, the whipping &ldquo;trials&rdquo; the group&rsquo;s leader had organized to teach Joseph&rsquo;s family a lesson, and how Renee discovered that her daughter&rsquo;s communication had been far more controlled than she even realized.

Renee Spencer, Part 1 - When Your Daughter Joins the “Kidney Cult”

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/8b50be57-c81c-4d76-870d-b4cd000073e6/transcript

We’re back with twins Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known as Mothermary. In part 2 this week they’ll talk about how Elyse got fed up with being obsessive about sin all the time, which led her to hitch a ride out of Idaho and into Salt Lake City. Living with former Mormons, she explains how that’s where her worldview began to crack–especially after she attended Pride for the first time.

Meanwhile, Larena talks about how her marriage–and her time in the church–ended, and the girls will share how they began their journeys working as professional dominatrixes. They discuss the importance of boundaries and communication, the parallels and differences between power dynamics in BDSM and religion, and whether someone in a religion that insists they be submissive can truly enter the mindset called “sub space.”

Plus, all about their band, and what their music means to them.

We&rsquo;re back with twins Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known as Mothermary. In part 2 this week they&rsquo;ll talk about how Elyse got fed up with being obsessive about sin all the time, which led her to hitch a ride out of Idaho and into Salt Lake City. Living with former Mormons, she explains how that&rsquo;s where her worldview began to crack&ndash;especially after she attended Pride for the first time.
Meanwhile, Larena talks about how her marriage&ndash;and her time in the church&ndash;ended, and the girls will share how they began their journeys working as professional dominatrixes. They discuss the importance of boundaries and communication, the parallels and differences between power dynamics in BDSM and religion, and whether someone in a religion that insists they be submissive can truly enter the mindset called &ldquo;sub space.&rdquo;
Plus, all about their band, and what their music means to them.

Larena & Elyse Wynn, Part 2 - Leaving Mormonism, Becoming Dominatrixes, and Reclaiming Power with BDSM

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/79679572-0c7f-4e0b-8577-b4c5017b5621/transcript

This week is part 1 with musicians, identical twins, and former Mormons turned dominatrixes Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known by their band name Mothermary. The girls share what it was like being raised in the LDS church, and how “Montana Mormons” may have had a more fear-based culture than Mormons in other parts of the country. They’ll talk about going to BYU Idaho, and how after having sex with her boyfriend—one of the worst sins you could commit in the church—Larena was told by her bishop that she needed to marry her boyfriend in order to not get kicked out of college.

Elyse describes having a similar experience in high school, and how both were told by their bishop to read a book called The Miracle of Forgiveness in order to repent, which basically told them that all the things that make you human are wrong. Elyse explains how she became obsessed with not sinning, why it made her so depressed she couldn’t eat, and how she realized she needed to get out of there.

In part two next week, Larena tells the story of how she got out of her marriage, and how they both came to work as dominatrixes.

This week is part 1 with musicians, identical twins, and former Mormons turned dominatrixes Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known by their band name Mothermary. The girls share what it was like being raised in the LDS church, and how &ldquo;Montana Mormons&rdquo; may have had a more fear-based culture than Mormons in other parts of the country. They&rsquo;ll talk about going to BYU Idaho, and how after having sex with her boyfriend&mdash;one of the worst sins you could commit in the church&mdash;Larena was told by her bishop that she needed to marry her boyfriend in order to not get kicked out of college.
Elyse describes having a similar experience in high school, and how both were told by their bishop to read a book called The Miracle of Forgiveness in order to repent, which basically told them that all the things that make you human are wrong. Elyse explains how she became obsessed with not sinning, why it made her so depressed she couldn&rsquo;t eat, and how she realized she needed to get out of there.
In part two next week, Larena tells the story of how she got out of her marriage, and how they both came to work as dominatrixes.

Larena & Elyse Wynn, Part 1 - Montana Mormons, Sex at BYU, and the “Miracle" of Forgiveness

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/dc9bae2e-2ce4-49c7-9a85-b4bf01550866/transcript

Trust Me is a weekly interview podcast about cults, extreme belief, and the fine line between devotion and delusion—told through firsthand accounts from the people who lived it. Hosted by two women who’ve been in cults themselves, Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth, the show features survivors from groups like Heaven’s Gate, the Manson Family, NXIVM, OneTaste and more–sharing personal stories of how they got in, how they got out, and everything in between.

Each week, they invite these guests alongside experts who can dive deep into seductive leaders, the darker aspects of organized religion, and the subtler shades of groupthink and the psychology of influence. Trust Me explores it all with unfiltered honesty, dark humor, and a lot of heart. This isn’t a sensationalized deep dive into cults—it’s a compassionate, first-person exploration of what it means to believe, to belong, and to break free. At the end of the day, wanting to believe in something bigger than yourself is one of the most human instincts there is.

Trust Me is a weekly interview podcast about cults, extreme belief, and the fine line between devotion and delusion&mdash;told through firsthand accounts from the people who lived it.&nbsp;Hosted by two women who&rsquo;ve been in cults themselves, Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth, the show&nbsp;features survivors from groups like Heaven&rsquo;s Gate, the Manson Family, NXIVM, OneTaste and more&ndash;sharing personal stories of how they got in, how they got out, and everything in between.
Each week, they invite&nbsp;these guests&nbsp;alongside experts who can dive deep into seductive leaders, the darker aspects of organized religion, and the subtler shades of groupthink and the psychology of influence. Trust Me explores it all with unfiltered honesty, dark humor, and a lot of heart.&nbsp;This isn&rsquo;t a sensationalized deep dive into cults&mdash;it&rsquo;s a compassionate, first-person exploration of what it means to believe, to belong, and to break free.&nbsp;At the end of the day, wanting to believe in something bigger than yourself is one of the most human instincts there is.

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

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