Lyndsey Burr, longtime reality television producer who worked on America’s Next Top Model for years, joins the girls to talk about her experiences working on the now-controversial hit show. She talks about what the team looked for when casting, some of the more problematic challenges the show used, and the time she lost the models in Thailand.

They discuss how it was the wild west of reality TV, with every show in the early days trying to outdo each other and often not considering the consequences for the folks on the show, and Tyra’s own arc and whether she was perpetuating the harmful cycle she’d been trying to stop. Plus, why Lyndsey thinks unscripted television has–hopefully–been getting more ethical.