BlackRock and Vanguard collectively own about 15% of every US company, but are they voting their shares in a way that aligns with investors in their funds? One new exchange-traded fund company, Strive Asset Management, says they aren’t, claiming they’ve gone against their fiduciary duty by becoming too “woke” and forming an “ideological cartel.” Now it has plans to offer alternatives.

We talk to Vivek Ramaswamy and Anson Frericks, co-founders of Strive. They plan to launch ETFs similar to those of BlackRock and Vanguard, but promise to keep politics and ESG concerns out of their voting. They discuss criticisms of ESG investing, stakeholder vs. shareholder capitalism and what Ramaswamy calls “excellence capitalism.” They also talk about how Strive will compete against the two biggest asset managers on the planet, and its noteworthy backers—including Peter Theil and Bill Ackman.