When Trust is Broken

Published Sep 5, 2018, 7:00 AM
Today's episode focuses on what happens when trust has been violated in a relationship and how to repair it. For this conversation I was joined by Dr. Tanisha Sapp, LPC, CST, NCC, ACS, MAC, SAP. Dr. Sapp and I discussed the importance of actually verbalizing expectations to our partners, developing a trust bank with your partner, how violations of trust impact intimacy, and she shared some of her favorite resources. 

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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. In today's episode, we'll be focusing on what happens when trust has been violated in your relationship and how to heal afterwards. For this conversation, I'm joined by doctor Tenisia Sapp, who is the director and CEO of a New Level Empowerment and Consultation LLC. She has over fifteen years of experience in the field and is an a sex certified sex therapist. She specializes in trauma focus counseling and sex therapy with both adolescents and adults. Her passion is centered upon building the self esteem of individuals who have experienced traumatic events. Her specialty is working with the transgender community, as well as individuals and couples experiencing low desire, erectile dysfunction, sexual pain, arousal disorders, and couples who just want to spice up their sex life. Using a sex positive approach, Doctor Sapp seeks to meet the client where they are and work with them to achieve the most desirable outcome. Dr saf and I discussed the importance of actually verbalizing expectations to our partners, developing a trust bank with your partner, how violations of trust impact intimacy, and she shared some of her favorite resources. If you hear something you'd like to share with others while you're listening, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Sap, thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm very excited to have you on the podcast. I mean, I have been an admirer of your work for a long time. Um, but we're in a couple of Facebook groups together, and I always think that you have some of the most insightful types of comments. Um So, I definitely wanted you to come on the podcast to just talk about partnerships and when intimacy looks like in partnerships, and I think sometimes people get that confused. Um So, can you tell us a little bit about what intimacy can look like in a partnership? Sure? Sure. Let me first say thanks for inviting me and having me. I think I am equally an admirer. The biggest thing that I see that comes up with intimacy and relationships is trust. Trust is a huge deal. When I'm working with couples, the biggest thing that we talk about is being intimate, whether it's sex or just are alone and quality time together is one of the most intimate relationships that a couple or intimate aspects of a relationship that a couple can have. And so when there is a breach of trust or an unmet expectation, those things come into play and really cause a barrier or really caused a rift within that relationship and lead to, unfortunately, the lack of intimacy or the lack of excitement or fulfillment in that intimate aspect of the real relationship. And when you talk about lack of trust, I think a lot of times you think about like, okay, somebody has been unfaithful. But of course there are tons of ways that trust can be broken down in the relationship. Can you share some other examples of things that may kind of result in a lack of trust in the relationship. Yes, So sometimes you're right that big piece of trust is the infidelity or someone cheating, if you will, But then we have other aspects of trust. So I thought you were going to respond this particular way to any event or a situation that came up, and you did not respond how I thought you would respond. A sense of safety, So safety being violated, whether it's through intimate partner violence or some sort of physical dispute, or if we're in a crowd and you didn't protect me in some way, shape, form or fashion, or you didn't emotionally give me what I needed from you. So those pieces also contribute to a lack of trust. And sometimes, believe it or not, finances, So a discrepancy and finances one person is a savor, when person is a spender, can enter fear with the trust within the relationship. Yeah, and you mentioned that a lot of times those things go undiscussed right like, so nobody ever says like, this is what I needed from you in the moment, and now I'm disappointed that that didn't happen in his results in a lack of trust. Yes, absolutely, So what happens sometimes is I have these expectations. You know, I think about women. A lot of women tend to have this idea of what their prince charming. I'm speaking from a hetero normative view, but prince Charming is gonna act like this, or when I think of my ideal relationship, this is what it's gonna look like. And sometimes that's modeled off of what we've seen with our parents or what we've seen from our family of origin, and sometimes it's modeled behind um, what we see on television. So a lot of role models that come up are the hostables or from the Cosby Show, and this is what our relationship or what a healthy relationship should look like. So if my spouse or significant other doesn't meet those expectations or doesn't do those things that my daddy did or my mom did, then that trust is gone. Now I'm upset, And guess what, I didn't even know that was an expectation. I didn't know you wanted dinner when you walked in the house. I didn't know that you wanted to be sexually intimate four times a week. I didn't know that you didn't like your bath water at this temperature. I didn't know that you wanted to bid me. I didn't know that you expected me to take a shower every day. Um know, those are things that come up, and so what happens is the first time they're discussed is usually in the heat of the moment. So now we discussed this in the heat of the moment, and what is the significant other or the spouse do they have to defend themselves. So I still didn't hear you because I have to defend my actions. This is why I did what I did. And so now here we go, We're having a continued dialogue or discussion about an unmet expectation that I didn't even know existed. Now I have to defend myself. And so when it happens again, and it will, it still didn't get addressed because we never had a discussion about it. All we did was argue about it from the beginning. And you know, as you were talking, it also made me think just how we need to do a better job of having conversations in general, right, Because I think you mentioned and that a lot of times these needs and expectation don't go like discussed. But I wonder if sometimes we don't even know that we have the expectation, Right, Like, something happens at a crowded party and your partner doesn't react the way that you thought that they would react. Um, but you didn't even necessarily know that you wanted them to react in a certain way, right, So it's just all of these weird dynamics playing in the background that just kind of come to a head all at once. Yes, yes, And so what happens You kind of hit the nail right on the head, right. So while I didn't know that this was how I wanted you to react, I still have the expectation. Why did I have the expectation because this is how I assumed. There's that assumption peace Cliff Huxtable would have reacted, my daddy would have reacted this way, my mama would have reacted this way, Or there's some sort of learned piece, that social learning piece that happened in prior relationships and prior viewed relationships, or that relationship learning from my family, whether it was my auntie, whether it was my parents, whether it was my grandparents up somewhere. Yeah, it's picked up somewhere. So in the back there's this expectation. So that's why as couples you have to have that dialogue. You have to talk about the what ifs. And a lot of times when we talk about what ifs. Right, when you think about couples and relationships and you talk about what ifs, people don't want to address those because that didn't even happen, So you're just trying to drum up something before something even happens. No, we need to talk about the what ifs. So now we're armed with knowledge of what my significant other desires or wants, you know that whole notion. Stay ready so you don't have to get ready. I know that my spouse doesn't play when it comes to that. I know that having a friend of the same sex or of the opposite sex, whatever the case may be. After we had a discussion about what's disrespectful in the relationship ships, So now we don't have to break trust because we've already established it. We added trust to our trust bank before there was ever a problem, So how would you go about working with a couple, like, how would you help them to have some of these conversations. So in my office, we talk about calling a spade a spade, and so we're pretty candid and and raw with with our discussions. And so we'll talk about it, we'll lay it all out on the table, and we'll have those hypothetical discussions. I like to bring extremes, and so my hypothetical situations are always way over the top and extreme because my philosophy is if I give you the absolute worst case scenario, anything else as a cake walk. So um. So on top of that, we then talk about those things and we add those into our trust bank, and so we talk about what that looks like. We talk about what you need to add into the trust bank, and that's what we focus on and we build on that so that way, when a situation happens and you're withdrawing from that trust bank, you still have a positive balance to go forward with mm mmmmmmmmm. And so you're using the trust bank much like we use you know, our actual bank, right like you use it as an analogy for you have to be able to make deposits into this trust bank. Between you and your partner so that when something happens, like an incident happens, that they're able to be withdraws me without it going bank growth. Absolutely, and we use real time money. So there's no credit um, there's no phone and a friend, there's no borrowing funds. That bank account, that trust bank account is built between the two people in that relationship, and then we make those deposits, and yes, we use it just like the A t M. If you don't have any money in your account, you cannot overdraw the A t M. You may be able to overdraw at Walmart if you press the credit but but at the A t M, if you don't have enough funds, it will say insufficient funds, no funds available, and you cannot withdraw over your limits. So, in addition to kind of preparing couples with like the tools to have these conversations by you know, doing these what if scenarios, what other kinds of things can couples or partnerships due to kind of make these deposits into the trust bank. So first we start with we spend a lot of time on what trust looks like for each person in this relationship. We also talk about what safety looks like in this relationship, and we work on doing those activities that help build trust and safety in those relationships. I take my couples back to the basics. So I take them back to where they were, you know, all warm and buzzy and giddy in the belly when they met, you know, where you know, everybody was cute, and everybody was hot, and and everybody was sexy and and everything was was warm and fuzzy and beautiful, and you saw unicorns and rainbows and you wanted to drop everything that you were doing, and nothing else mattered but the two of you. And so we go back to that safe space and the activities you were doing during that time that brought you joy, that let you know, you know, I just really love you, I really like you, you know, I really think you're really cool. Usually when they're telling those stories, their eyes light up and they smile, and they start feeling those warm and fuzzy feelings and butterflies in the belly all over again. And those are the moments we capture, and those are the moments that we worked to get back to because those were the joyful moments, and those are the ones that built the trust bank, and so we use those activities and then we enhanced for where you are now. So no, you may not be climbing stone mountain like you did before, or may not be going on escapades around the world like you were, but we can bring stone Mountain to your house. We can bring the escapades to your house. And let's talk about what that looks like now and what that looks like for where you are in this moment, so that we can build those joyful moments from where we are now. And so those are the things that really help couples identify Yes, okay, so this is what date night looks like for us now four kids in and no babysitter. You know, this is what sexual intimacy looks like now, six kids later, two grandkids, and maybe I don't have the stamina that I had when I was twenty. So here's what it looks like now and it's okay. So that definitely sounds like some you know, things that couples could our partnerships can definitely be trying themselves, like, okay, how can we get back to remembering some of those times early in the relationship where everything was exciting and there weren't maybe as many responsibilities. How can we recapture some of that? Yes, yes, I bring my Michael Jackson song into it. You know, do you remember the time I think I'm would play that in a session and we'll see I love that. So those are some of the things that people can do to kind of build up their bank. But I do think we need to talk about what happens when you do overdraw, right, um, And like you've already shared some of the things that can happen to bring down the intimacy, but what does the fallout of that look like? Sometimes after trust has been eroded in the relationships. So typically that looks like when I get the phone call of the schedule a session. Um, that's when couples. Couples come to see us once an overdraft has happened, once you get that insufficient funds letter in the mail, and it's not the first one, so it's not the first insufficient funds fee of thirty five dollars plus whatever the dollar is that you went over. By the time we get those phone calls, it's almost in the thousands of overdraft fees and funds and reversals and things of that nature. So we're repairing at that point first. Before we can even start talking about the work and getting you to the positive, we gotta get you to a zero balance. And so we're just really being honest and recognizing what happened and taking ownership and responsibility for what happened, and acknowledging that there is a problem and there's not just one person that played a role. We have multiple pieces that played a role in this. And now that we recognize that there is a problem and we agree that there are pieces to this puzzle that we both have contributed to. And in some cases that may very well be the case. And in some cases it really is just one sided when we're talking about the choice to have an extra relationship, so an affair or cheating or infidelity, whichever term you choose to use for that. So depending on the type of overdraft, that depends on how deep or how big of a level of repair work that we have to do. But I'm a big believer that if on the front end we handle things. If there's a big breach of trust, yes that's a huge withdrawal, but we put so much in the bank already that we can come and we can handle this we can overcome. But when we get to a point that you're coming in as last ditch effort, if this doesn't work, then it's not gonna work. Then those are hard. Those are harder to work with and harder to work on, because then my role as the clinician is to get us to a point that you trust me enough to work with you. And so that's where my work is, just getting you as the couple to trust me and to be able to share with me, and then being able to go backwards and heal those pieces of the relationship. I always share with my couples that once trust is broken, we can't go back and change that that trust is broken. That's like having a house with a cracked foundation. All we can do is build from this point forward. We can't go and repair foundation. It's done, the house is set, but we can build from here. We can't build old a new house, and building that new house requires new foundation, requires new walls, requires a new roof, and then we decorate the inside once all of that plumbing, all that good stuff, And so you can't build a new house overnight. You didn't build this relationship overnight. Knowing that pulling those expectations together so that they're realistic and they're achievable and doable. Helps to make that process and it helps even foster the trust between me as the clinician and you as the couple. So really, it sounds like what you're advocating for is to do a lot of like preventative and maintenance work on your relationship before anything happened, so that if and when anything should happen, you have enough of a bank account stored up to be able to withstand it, yes, ma'am, and before stay ready so you don't God got you. One of the things that, of course happened and after there has been a breach of trust is that there is a damage to physical intimacy. And you mentioned that people often don't realize like, of course there is a change to that. So can you talk a little bit about first why you think people miss that so much, and you know, like what work looks like to kind of restore that. Right, So when we talk about that change to physical intimacy, we're talking about sexual intimacy, and usually the biggest thing is, okay, so we're not having text anymore? Well, yeah, that's that's about accurate because here we are, we have this huge breach of trust or this huge breach of safety in this relationship, and the first thing to go is sex. Well guess what, Yeah, that's gonna happen, because remember, as I said earlier, that's the most intimate connection that you're going to have in this relationship. And so in order to do that, that means I need to be vulnerable. I have to let my guard down, and in order for me to do that, I have to feel safe. So if those conditions aren't met, then no, it's not gonna happen. And so usually that's where people realize, oh, snap, we actually have a problem in this relationship. Why because we're not having sex anymore, or we're not cuddling, we're just having surface conversations. We don't even like each other. And so one of the things and how we work on rebuilding that again is really to work on building that trust, putting those trust deposits in the bank, re establishing what this looks like for you now versus what it looks like for you twenty years ago when you started dating. Twenty years ago and now are two different things. Too. Many life events have happened between here and there over the span of twenty years, you grew up, you matured, things change you were immature, or anything could have happened. You had kids, bought a house, lost job, gained a job, change careers, all kinds of significant life events could have happened between here and there. So that person that you knew then is different now because of growth and evolving. So one of the things that we do to work through that is getting to know who your partner is now and what they like now. And don't assume that because you've known them for twenty years or because they've known you for twenty years, that everything should still be the same, because they're not. And what people are finding out is that, oh, so you don't like pizza like you like before. Well no, because it gives me heartburn. I've been telling you that, but you you didn't hear me. So here we are now, or maybe there's weight changes or whatever the case may be, physical changes, whatever that looks like. And so we work on establishing who your partner is now, what they like now. And sometimes my couples get frustrated because you know, I already know this, I already know that person, but then that one new thing comes up and boom, Now we have exposure. Now we have that moment, that aha moment. So yeah, something did change. Yes, something did evolve in this relationship. Something did evolve over time. And now we're getting back to focusing on us in our relationship. And when we're doing that, all the while, we're building that trust, we're building that safety. I'm able to express myself without being judged for how I feel or without being judged for these experiences and you actually hear me. So we're improving communication, we're re establishing trust, we're building a new foundation where cultivating this relationship. So we're strengthening this relationship in this bond. And now guess what, I just got my best friend back. So yeah, I you thought I was swinging from the chandelier before, but I'm really swinging now. And hey, we're having fun with it too, right right, And I'm really glad you address those things because I do think you know, there's often the perception and again when we're talking about like a heteronormative kind of a couple, you know, like that the woman is withholding sex or you know, being punitive in some way because she's angry at her partner. When you don't realize like all of the factors that go into somebody deciding that they don't want to be intimate with someone. M hm, So let me let me be clear about that, because you brought up a good point about withholding sex. So sometimes people do do that as a form of punishment. But guess who ends up suffering. You're punishing your partner and your mate because they pitched you off for whatever reason. And so now you're saying, you know what, just because that happened, you're not getting none. You're not getting done for three or four or five weeks. Guess what, boo boo, that means you're not getting any either. And so if it comes down to me or you, guess who's gonna get their's? So who's winning here? Who? Who just won the golden prize? Now we're both equally frustrated and everybody's angry. No, don't do that. Now, that's that's different than I don't feel safe, we don't have trust, and so yes, this is now, this is not punishment. This is I don't have a desire, I'm not I don't like you right now, so it's hard for me to give you all my goodies and do all these tricks and twists and back flips if I don't even like you right now, right right, But that's not what we're specifically discussing here, right, No, but two completely separate things. Right, You didn't take out the trash, so you know, guess what, No, this is not your kid, and so no, this is not the way to to handle that. But if I'm not feeling safe, we don't have trust. Every time you say you're gonna do something, you don't do it. We may have had some physical altercations whatever the case may be, that broke that trust. And now here we are in this moment, and we can even add that piece into it. If I feel like I am I have to parent you, then yeah, that also is going to break down that sense of intimacy and desire and even arousal within the relationship because we're not having sex with our kids. So so those pieces also come up as well. But the biggest thing here is being able to have that discuss shin and being able to talk about what you need and being able to hear what your significant other or your partner needs without being defensive about it. Listen to them, hear them, and acknowledge that you hear them because they're entitled to their feelings just like you are. And then now let's work on how can we fix it. How can I contribute to making this relationship better? So you mentioned something after said that I feel like we need to go back to because I feel like I see a lot of conversations online and just you know, in life about like helping your partner and you know, like supporting your partner, and I think sometimes there is a line that gets crossed that does become a parenting kind of a thing. And like you mentioned, that doesn't typically breed attraction, right, Like if you feel like you are mothering someone, that definitely is not a sexual attraction. And so what can you say more about what that line is? Like, when do you go too far in the support in helping where it crosses the line to parenting. Oh gosh, that's a whole, that's a whole another reporting. And I knew as soon as I said it, I said, I'm about to open up a can of worm. Well, we gotta go, We gotta do we do though, because we're about to heal some relationships. Yes, So, yes, we're gonna heal some heal some relationships here, so here, here's the thing, right, And so a lot of times will will have folks who get into relationships and they're excited and you found you able and you know, yeah, you can be his ride of die check. You can hold him down. I mean, we ain't we ain't gotta die. But you can hold them down, right, you can hold them down. There's nothing wrong with being there for your boom. There's nothing wrong with with being the strength of being the support system, being the helpmate, whatever word you need in that moment. It's absolutely nothing wrong. However, when there comes a time, I think the hard fast, thick, thick, thick black line is when there is a point that our dynamics have shifted to where I am your only source. Does that make sense? Where I am the only person that And it could be something that I created, It could be the dynamics where the partner was codependent and I got drafted into this role. It could be a number of things. But the only piece of something is coming from me. Now. That does not count. When you out there and your mate is out there grinding and they lost their job for whatever reason, whether it was poor decision making on their end, or if the position was eliminated or whatever, or if you had a discussion about starting your own business and it just hasn't moved. How how you thought it was gonna move. And yeah, you're the only source. That's totally different. This is this has been your role from from the beginning, or this has been now your adapted role, and that is the expected role. So now instead of conversations where we are on a partnership level and we have a equal saying things, you are now the authoritative figure. You are the soul person as though you are now the parent every move we make, I'm looking to you to make this final decision and your word is final, not that we get to have a discussion about it, but you have the soul say and everything. Not that I'm looking to you or I chose to defer to you, but that is the rule. Those are our relationship rules and roles. And now I don't have this sense that this is now a partnership, but this is becoming a authoritative relationship or a dictatorship, and it's one sided. So now I am the only person handling everything, and I don't have a partner, I have a dependent and so now here we are, we don't have intimacy because well, you know, when I'm handed down the SmackDown all day long, UM, I really don't want to be intimate with somebody that um is my dependent because I'm not really out here having sex with kids. So here you are just another person. So now we're roommates or we're just kicking it and we don't have a relationship. We don't have a partnership. Yeah, I feel like that dynamic also happens, you know, when you get into a space of being the only one, like you mentioned to go to for support, but that you are also handling more of the load than the other person. You know, like they may be looking for a new job, but you're the one doing all the searching and you're the one reviewing the rhysumes and uploading it, and you know, like that the other person is not even kind of pulling their weight in what maybe even their endeavor. Right. So, but then when you even think about it from that perspective, so who wants the job? Because if you want the job, you're gonna look right, or that's the assumption or the expectation. So if you're spending time and you're out there doing a job hunt and you already have a job, but you're doing the job hunt for your spouse or significant other. Houston, we have a problem. Yeah, not that you can't assist with it. Of course, all day long, I happen to have leads. I can offer those to you if I happen to know somebody who's hiring. But what I can't do is get on the phone and schedule your interview. What I can't do is complete your your full application. Now I can I can assist you with completing your application because maybe it's online and typing it's not your strength. Well, you're sitting next to me, You're not out hanging with the whole knees while I'm at home complete in your job applications and and and doing your resume and um, and then handling everything else in the house. That's that's not okay, right, Okay, So I hope anybody needed to hear that. I was able to hear that. Um, you know, because I do thinks sometimes we find ourselves in these positions and you look up and you're like, wait, what happened here? But also you know there's no judgment either. If that's right, makes you happy, go for it, you know. So if you are that person and that is your role and it brings you joy, hear me when I say this, go for it. I'm happy for you because if that's working for you, let it. So it's it's kind of that that idea that it's not a problem until it's a problem. So I think that I just want to make it super clear that this is for that person who is struggling with this idea that I don't like this, I don't want this, not for that person who's saying, shoot this, that's gravy. You're gonna be a stay at home person and I'm gonna go out and work, go for it, do it, And that's okay too. But if that's not what you want and that's not your ideal relationship setting, then here is that support and encouragement for you to set those firm boundaries and it's okay. Yeah, it feels like it all kind of goes back to that undiscussed expectation piece, right, Like, if it works for you and that's what y'all have discussed and that's what's happening, then fine. But if it's something that you found yourself in now and you don't like it, then there may be a conversation that needs to be head. Absolutely, that's it. That's it right there. So what are some of your favorite resources for couples, Like what kinds of books or websites or podcasts do you find yourself kind of suggesting over and over? Oh my goodness, UM, I'm trying to think. So one book that I always recommend to couples who may have had where there wasn't an affair or something like that. So there's a couple of books. One that comes to mind is called Getting Past the Affair. There's another one that I really like called Relationship Recipes. There's another one that I like that is called for Giving Forwards, about forgiveness. And then there's some self help books that I recommend two couples who are struggling with sexual pieces and intimacy within the relationship by Barry McCarthy. I give his information his books about intimacy and desire and things of that nature. So those are I think are the biggest tools that I utilized within my work as far as recommending books, I highly, highly highly recommend that people stay off Google. Um, don't google your relationship problems. Google did not solved the problem. Google heightens the paranoia. If you seek it, you will find it. So if you go looking for symptoms, you're gonna find those symptoms and they're going to fit your your ideal or your sense of something. UM. I also recommend that my people in relationships don't go talking about relationship problems to their single friends. I'm not talking about practitioners who may be single. I'm talking about single friends. Because your single friends are good at being single, and so that's what they know, and that's their perspective that they're gonna give you. So if you're wanting advice, I usually have my couples go and talk to people who have been in relationships for a very very very long time. So I have them go find an elderly couple who have been together for over thirty years. So if they've been together for twenty, I want you to go find somebody who's been together for fifty uh, And that way you can talk to them about somebody who's together and and they like each other. So I don't want you to go find your great grandma and great grandfather who don't like each other and they're constantly fighting. But I want you to go find your Fred and Ethel who love each other, but you know they made throws, start sarcasm and shade at each other every so often, but at the end of the day, they have each other's bags. So go find your people or and add to your tribe, folks who who are where you aspire to be, and add that piece to your puzzle, at that piece to your relationship toolbox and learn and ask them questions, interview them, ask them the tough questions, how did you deal with this? How did you work through this? Did you experience this and believe it or not? Most couples will be open to sharing the pieces that they learned about each other, the pieces that worked and the pieces that didn't, especially couples that who may have gone through some stuff, because they'll believe in how to make this work and the things that you have to put into making this work. I work a little bit differently with my couples who are married versus my couples who are dating the hus My couples who are married have a different level of a commitment together. It's not as easy to walk away than it is for my couples who are just dating and trying to figure out. So we come from this lens on both sides of the spectrum with what do you want? But how bad do you want it? And how hard are you willing to work for it? When you're upset and you're married, you can't really go very far. You can go downstairs. You can go if there's an upstairs and downstairs, but you can go to the couch. When you're dating and you're upset, you can go home, and your home is typically at a different address. Now, if you live together in your dating then of course those dynamics are a little bit different. But still that level of commitment and investment may be different because if you're upset, you can go to your friend's house, you can go to a parent's house, and yeah you can when you're married as well. But what you're gonna put into that and how much effort you're gonna put into that is gonna look a little bit different, because maybe I don't want my family to know that we're having a problem, So I find that those pieces are a little bit different, and so how I may go about working with that or giving those tools may look a little bit different. But at the end of the day, the goal is still the same. Are we gonna be together? Are we not? And before we get into this, we need to be secure in our decision and know if we're gonna get into this or not, if we're gonna stay together or not. And knowing that also plays a role in the work and the effort that you're gonna put into making this work and doing the work that's required in our work together. Amazing. So where can people find you online? What's your website as well as any social media handles that you want to share. Okay, so you can visit my practice website www dot a new level dot org, so like a new pair of shoes, but a new level Dot org. And so my practice name is a New Level Empowerment and Consultation and you'll see me listed on that website. You can follow me on Instagram at I am Dr Tenisha SAP and my last name is spelled A S A p p Sarah Apple, Paul Paul and then you can follow me on Instagram, Twitter and do. I don't have a public Facebook page for clients, but we do have one for the practice, which is a New Level LLC. That's the handle for Facebook, so people can follow follow that and I do have a Pinterest board for couples as well, and I think that's Tenisia sapp as well. Basically that following pieces Twitter, Instagram and Interest, and then the practice is listed on Facebook. But the best the biggest places to interact and engage, and then anybody looking to learn more or get more connected with me can go to our website and schedule time to meet with me. Absolutely sounds good. Well, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you for having me. Absolutely, I'm so thankful Dr Sap was able to share her expertise with us today. To check out the resources she shared and to learn more about her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session seventy three, and please be sure to share this episode with two people in your life or share your takeaways with us in your I G stories. Make sure to use the hashtag tv G and session so that we can share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash directory. Don't forget to check out the Therapy for Black Girls store to grab your T shirt or a mug to show your love for the podcast. You can shop at the store at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. I doctor often ill oftor p ofctor

Therapy for Black Girls

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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