Session 158: What's Next for Issa & Lawrence?

Published Jun 3, 2020, 7:00 AM
Dr. Donna Oriowo, M.Ed, MSW, CST is back for another Insecure debrief this week! She and I chatted about the conditions that had to exist for Issa & Lawrence to be able to have that conversation, how you might know if you need to or are ready for a conversation like that with someone from your past, our thoughts on whether this was a closure conversation or a brand new start, and our predictions for the rest of the season.

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We have to examine all the ethics and all the stuff that came our way doesn't actually make sense for the people we serve, because we already know that the mental health industry has historically been white mail driven, and that has been the case. And chances are the ethics that they let us have, our white male focused and thus driven by capitalism and white supremacy, acquires us to do additional work. Come on with this opening prayer, Come on, come on. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I sincerely hope that you're doing your very best to take really good care of yourself right now and finding even very small ways to tap into your resilience. This past week has definitely been a rough one, and while I consider sharing another episode about racism, the truth is that I'm feeling pretty exhausted by the continuing brutality we face and felt like I needed a little devity this week, and maybe you do too. Dr Donna orio Wo is back with us to debrief on this week's episode of Insecure. If You're not familiar, Dr Orioo is an author, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapist in the Washington, d C. Metro area. The owner of a nod Right, Dr Donna specializes in working with black women on issues related to colorism and texturism and its impact on mental health and sexual health. She's the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease, a self love Journey through hair and skin. She and I chatted about the conditions that had to exist for Issa and Lawrence to be able to have that conversation, how you might know if you need to are already for a conversation like that with someone from your past, our thoughts on whether this was a closure conversation or a brand new start and I produce actions for the rest of the season. Here's our conversation. So I am thankful for you joining me again. I am always grateful and excited to be invited back. I love doing this. Yes, I mean, and I know. We had a conversation even before you know, we started recording, just about how we are feeling in the world. Yeah, it's just it's tough. It's you know, there's so many feelings and funnily enough, and I feel like this is that thing that you get when you have wonderful clients, and I do. They have been asking me back, so we start off every session with the feeling to check in using the feelings chart, you know, and I've just been like, give them all to me and then let's break it down. Let's talk about where it is in the body. But they're just like, but you have to hold all my stuff. And I know I'm not the only person you see, So how are you doing? Genuine questions being asked and I will not dishonor them by not giving them an answer. I know that some people say that it's inappropriate and all that, but I'm just like, nah, if my clients ask I know it's because they actually want to know, and I uh sort of rotary question that you know, you know how, like back in the day when we used to get on elevators with people like small talk exactly for a small talk, And that's something that I try to remove from my clients. On day one, I'm looking like, so when I ask you how you're doing, I don't mean for you to tell me fine, and for you to ask me how I'm doing. I'm looking like, now, I actually care about what you're feeling. So I want the fullness of them. I want the rawness. If it's beautiful, I want to share that with you. If that's ugly, I want to hold that with you, whatever it is. I want to be there with you in this space. So I know that they're asking me legit questions, so I don't use my own feelings turned like, yes, I feel some type of way, I kind of wish a bitch wood I've been in this space, but I'm also very grateful that I get to be there with my clients as we move through this together. Yeah, you know, I think that there is something really powerful about that, right because you know, of course, in our training it's like don't make the therapy about you that kind of thing. But that's not what this is, right, Like, this is a shared space of humanity, especially giving everything happening in the world right now, you know. So I think it is important that when clients ask you, like, how are you doing that, it's okay to to share human to human without it becoming about you. Yeah, because I'm just like, hey, all this, I appreciate your asking me and checking in, but let's look, you know, like, let's get back to you. I will always rebrout it, right, It's definitely not about me. But they're just certain cannons that I've been examining for myself throughout, you know, with where it comes to the ethics of our practices and like that, and in my quest to continue to divest from white supremacy and white nests, myself and the therapist that I hired, this is part of the work that we are doing that I'm just like, Nope, we have to examine all the ethics and all the stuff that came our way doesn't actually make sense for the people we serve. Because we already know that the mental health industry has historically been white, male focused, and if that has been the case, then chances are the ethics that they let us have our white male focused, white male driven and thus driven by capitalism and white supremacy that requires us to do additional work. Come on with this opening prayer, Come on, come on? Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and I don't think it's any like accident, right that in our Facebook groups, right in the black Facebook groups, for they of this that we will often talk about how our practice looks very different, you know, like there are lots of things that we have been taught that we have figured out don't work for us and don't work for the clients that we serve. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, so I again am thankful for you joining us. You know, I know we had a little bit of a back and forth like, oh, does it feel okay to do this? Does it feel you know, wrong to like do an insecure recap, but also decided that that happiness and and you know, the the warm hug is how I describe it, that it felt like we got on the Sunday night was something to also be celebrated and to give people a little bit of a reprieve, right that we can continue to focus on the fight. But also have moments where we are being restored in celebrating joy and for black people, joy seeking joy, seeking pleasure, seeking peace. All of these things are revolutionary as well. These are not things that have been afforded to black people. So we do deserve moments where we get to re engage with things that help us to feel good, that make us laugh, that makes us engage in a different way. We can still fight this fight, and we are still fighting this fight, even in the midst of rest even in the midst of seeking pleasure. White people, they got a lot of work to do, and they should go ahead and do that work. But Black people, part of our work is seeking Yes, absolutely, come on, we're gonna have to pass the collective cash app collection plate. Did you send it all? Send it all? For giving us this offering. So this week's episode, first of all, we are just gonna start off by giving Natasha rock Will all of her things because imppable job written was this episode. It was beautifully written. It was beautifully shocked. And then I realized that, oh, I have a pension for seeking drama in these shows, because every time you know, you get a call, I'm wild up and shot up. I just knew she was gonna be outside. At the end of the episode, I just like, also, this is what you're doing. I was. I was just so ready for it, and then it didn't happen, and I breathe this breath that I didn't know I was even holder. Isn't that something? But you know, the rest of the episodes this season, having kind of landed that, right, I mean, especially the last time you joined us with the big blow up with Molly, I mean, it did feel like the collective wind was knocked out of us at that end of the block party. Well. Absolutely, I was just like, oh, oh, okay, so we didn't get to breathe a little bit easier this episode. Yeah, And I was just like, you know what, I appreciate. That's a good time. And yes, it felt that's what I'm saying. It felt just like a warm hug. It felt like a warm hug. Um. So, yeah, thank you so much to Natasha Rockwell. And I'm forgetting the director's theme, but y'all did a beautiful job with this episode. It just was beautiful from beginning to end. So in this episode, it was kind of like this week's long back and forth between East and Lawrence, like he called her and said I want to meet up and it didn't happen, And so finally they are able to get together. And they've been trying this sense since way back, what since before the block party outside and um yeah yes, yeah he want the top back then, but not enough time was busy, right, so what and I'm trying to remember what do you think sparked him to want to have this conversation with each condola so she broke up with him or they are saying like maybe we need to reevaluate, And so that's when he started thinking about, like, oh did I like in this? I think it was low key thankful when she basically was like she didn't cheat it, Yes, that's right. Got him back in a thing or two like do I walk away too soon? Or am I not properly invested? And I was just like I really Number one, I appreciated the question. Not in general, I am so over the saga of Issa and Lawrence. That's just that's just me. I'm just like, please don't get back together. Let this be a one time We've recuperated and now I move on. But like just generally, I was just like I appreciated the question because I often feel there's a double standard when they're cheating, when I expected automatically that if they don't forgive, they're not really a ride or die, They're not really invested in a relationship. And I'm just like, wow, that's the question, the question and really considered do you walk away too soon? Are you not really in dested? Because sometimes I'll be real, I feel like women can get treated like property and the idea of another person having sex with their property is the real issue necessarily that they cheated, more like how did you allow someone else's penis? We inter you? So not so much about like the strength of the relationship or the bond in the relationship, but more about the fact that you stepped out exactly specifically stepping out with a man, he's stepping out with a woman. Then they I feel like often times people start getting that lesbian sex fantasy thing. They feel like it's forgivable if you allow them to join, so then in that case, even your pleasure in that way still becomes about them. But like this, I was just like, Okay, I appreciate the flip of the question and how he has to consider for himself. Did he walk away too? So yes, So I want to talk about the conversation kind of generally, So this kind of feels like what in my mind, especially and you know, for those of you who don't know, my clinical specialty is breakups, and so it kind of reminds me of the conversation that clients often think they are going to have with an X to kind of receive this closure. And so I thought it was really interesting to see it play out on TV in a way that was like so well written and of course you know the our characters. But I think what happened is what most people think is going to happen in these quote unquote closure conversations, and of course real life does not often look the way it looked of course that we saw that Sunday. And on top of that, I would say that they they already started the journey toward closure well before they had the conversation. Yeah, because we need to think about, like, how long has it been since the breakup? At least a year, maybe more. It's been some time, right, And so I think what all the other thing that happens is that people try to have this conversation very soon, right before you are actually even ready to have what I thought was a pretty muture conversation between the two with them, and it was beautifully mature. But I'm just like, I don't want people to get a twist and start thinking that they're going to have these type of conversations that they go back seeking and next I'm like, new you. I feel like, number one, you can't really be going there with an agenda like that. To get closure is to get closure, but most people are not actually seeking closure, that actually seeking another way to get back with a person that ye, and you know what I'm calling in a closure conversation. But I mean, so it's yet to be seen and we'll talk about like our predictions. But I don't know actually what Lawrence was going in for right, Like, I don't know if this was him trying to get closure or was this him thinking, Okay, do we have another shot at this. I'm hoping it was closure because I'm looking like, man, you're about to move to San Francisco. That's what I think it's gonna happen to you. That's what I feel like it's gonna happen to see. We get we getting were getting ahead of ourselves. We gotta going. Going back to your comment though, that you hope people don't like think that this is what's gonna happen with an X. Under what circumstances do you think it is appropriate to try to have a conversation like this with an X. I've had this conversation with the X. I'm about to marry him. Well, so how you gonna tell the audience that they can't have this conversation and you're about to marry your company? Because we did it different. Okay, So number one, this is our third time together. Uh huh. The first time we broke up and we tried to get back together and go for it. That second time, we did not have the conversation that we needed to have. There was no closure, there was no healing. We just thought that we could just jump back in to it. Now. Mind you, a whole year had passed between breakup and getting back together and it still didn't work because I wasn't over what happened before. I didn't I hadn't even really conceptualized all the ways I was not over. I jumped in to let me try and be friends because he said, let's be friends. Okay, I'm gonna try to be friends. But I was doing that creepy nonsense that a lot of people do. So I'm calling all of us out where you remain friends with somebody with the hopes that you want to get back together, let me know that you let me let you know right now that is creepy and manipulative and not okay. But a lot of us do it anyway, we really do, right, And so we're gonna hust just pause here because I'm I'm feeling a little triggered, um right, because I do think and I think it is often as women that we are the ones who end up hurt in that situation, right like, so we but heard as Yeah, we just watched him move on while we think that we're supposed to still be friends and maintain a space for them in our lives. So we get, we get but hurt, and I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, we allowed this, We opened this door. We said we were willing to be friends before we were ready. That's not okay for anybody involved. Yeah, I mean, and even earlier this season with Ethan Lawrence, there were still this awkwardness, right like, especially after she found out that um, he and Condola were dating, right, so there was still this weirdness, and it doesn't feel like until some of these later episodes where they have even been able to get into a place to be able to have this conversation exactly, and I was, I was grateful that they were able to move into that space like she. I mean, I think that having a albeit not really alone, conversation with Condola help. I think that two episodes ago, when you know she was by herself really considering the words of Molly and loving how she uses be well, I think that that was also a time for her to just be so searching in general and trying to learn more about herself. And despite the fact that she got left at that restaurant with that bill, I think that she she's been showing us that she's more than willing to go all in and that this for her is along the lines like I'm going all in with my block party. I'm jumping in with twoth feet and I'm gonna do the work. I'm gonna jump in with tooth feet here and I'm gonna do the work. And just you know, just constantly being willing to throw herself in, so throwing herself into this conversation both feet again, I'm just like, okay, I'm I'm looking at her and I'm impressed with how willing she is to jump in this way. You know. That makes me think about something that I also noticed in this episode was that. And I know even the last time you and I talked, we talked about like the growth that we had kind of seen Issa have, like just in terms of confidence and finally kind of figuring out what she wants to do. And I think it's funny how sometimes when you are with like an X or somebody like who has been removed from your life, maybe for some time it comes back that you can fall into some of those old patterns. Because when they finally got to the restaurant where they ended up eating, there was this like awkwardness about like okay, do I tell them that I've been here before or you know not, And so then Lawrence finally say it's like, okay, let's have a no no tiptoeing policy, no eggshells, and so then it felt like it really allowed her to kind of walk back into this confidence that I feel like she has been kind of growing to have this season exactly, And it was almost like let's get to know each other and talk about the people we were back then. So it's you don't actually know me, know me anymore, Like my drink has changed and the way I moved has changed, and both of us are we are not the exact same people that we were back then. So let us start here with getting to know each other while also resolving back then. And that's what my partner and I needed to do when we were finally ready this third time around to start trying to move forward. Mm hmmm. And I tell people don't do it because they're not Most people are not being honest with themselves about what it is that they're seeking. They're not honest with themselves about their level of healing, about the work that they've done between and then having the conversations as raw and real as they need to be. So what are some questions you think you can ask yourself or like, how would you know if you're ready to try to have this kind of conversation? Oh? I like that one. So for me, at this point when when my partner and I started dating again, or before we even really started dating again, number one, several years had passed, we're talking two three, It is somewhere along there. A lot of years have passed, enough years have passed that number one I actually had healed. I was I went to therapy for a while. I did go back to dating this one dude because I was like, yeah, I stud can't hurt my feelings like he can. So but that was something also that I recognized while I was in therapy. But I was dating somebody because they couldn't hurt me as badly as this other person. So being able to call myself in around those things with love, I had decided at some point, like I had done all this work, I had been single by myself, living my absolute best life. And I'm talking about I was going on trips alone, going to dinner alone, going to movies alone. I learned to really enjoy my own company and fall in love with me in such a way that I knew what I was never gonna take in anybody's relationship. And it became so glaringly clear how often I would silence myself or shut myself down to be in a and in something with someone, and I realized that I ain't had to do that, and that no one was expecting of me but me. So once I. Once I started to really get to know me better, that's when I knew I was ready to date. I ain't date him, not not immediately. I would dating to other people. And I was sorting through the type of stuff I like and I don't like in our partner and in people that I was dating. I know that I don't like people dating me for my skin tone. That was that was a nice one, and I was like, all right, I don't like that, Like, oh, you're so chocolate and I'm so light, and I'm just like, yeah, hill, I feel like a skin tone and not a person. I recognized I didn't like people dating me for my profession. Because that turned into me doing free therapy. Um, I learned a lot of things about myself more than anything, what feels right, what doesn't feel right. And then I got really good, really good at being able to call something even before it fully happened, to be able to be like all right, yeah, that's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. And sometimes I would go forward with it anyway, just see if it didn't work. It just like, let me try, let me try. And with this person I had got into thinking about them again in a more real way and how you know, just wondering about them, how they're doing, what they're up to and all that. And we started off and I was actually in a space where I could offer a friendship m and in that At one point I was just like, you know what, I think that I would like to explore the possibility of dating. What do you think. We had a long conversation about that, and then I went out to go see them, and we're talking about three months of conversation back and forth before we ever let anybody else know, and before we were official. We did a lot of work. We had to call all of it out, like how things went down when we were in college together, Like, Yo, you didn't tell me that you were struggling with school and struggling to be in a relationship, Like you could have said something. And at the same time, I was a whole selfish ass whole back then. I used to be like, oh, yeah, she gets what she wants. I mean, I was insufferable. I am sure. Um just being able to hear what he had to say about what it was like for him to be in a relationship with me back then, and for me to talk very honestly about getting back with him that second time, and that I dumped him the second time because I was just like, nope, and I wanted to hurt his feeling So when you want to hurt somebody's feelings, you probably have no business being back. Yes, So just we laid all the stuff bare on the table, and then we started really dating a little and we were constantly checking out some of that love stuff just picks back in and you just want to be able to say it. And then I was times when I was like, I'm not sure I love you and he's like, that's fine, and I was just like that felt better. That the level of honesty and vulnerability that both of us have to display to even get to this point has been incredible, And I don't know that a lot of people are willing to do that much work to have those type of conversations to also talk about how you're going to reintegrate with somebody's family and your front groups, because that's part of the reason why we didn't say anything to anybody. We need an our stuff to shine through first, right, So what you're kind of talking about is something that I often talk about in terms of a relationship autopsy, right, So like going through that, going through kind of all of the rickets, so to speak, right, and looking at like what happened there? And I think that this is something that you can do both individually and if you're thinking about becoming a couple again and thinking about the ways that maybe you didn't show up in the ways you wanted to in the relationship, like how was I not making my needs? And I wish I had your book then, but it really helped me. Yes, some of these questions are in my workbook, the questions that need answers after a breakup. Um, it really kind of takes you to this whole process of like rediscovering maybe your own voice that might have been kind of diminished in the relationship, and and helping you to really kind of think about what would you want in a new relationship, whether it be with this person again or someone else exactly and being able to show up for you because I mean, let's make no mistake about it, Black women specifically are often told exactly how they're supposed to show up in anybody's relationship, and a lot of it has to do with diminishing the self to boost somebody else up. I don't. I don't diminish nothing at all. And you like, I just wanted a partner that was gonna be able to be one hundred persist secure with the type of person that I am, with the type of work that I do, and how it is that I show up and my partner is that person. He was not that person at first. He had to grow into it, and I had to grow into allowing him to be that because I did. I would calm it down, I would shut it down. I would do things that would let me be a little bit less than I am. And I'm like, if you're gonna start with that energy, then you have to keep that energy when you show up. You get to show up fully and you get to see whether or not they can take being that way with you, and whether or not they can actually be with you, all of you, not the pieces that you choose to show them or the way that we diminish yourselves to make them feel better about themselves. I am, I am the women, I am an alpha in so many ways, and that does not make my partner, uh, you know, behind me. It does not put them beneath me. It means that they are an outfa in ways that I am not. They take charge in things that I do not. This house, in a lot of ways is taking charge by my partner because I will starve us both just like well, I mean I ordered the Uber eats, cooking this doing. Oh yeah, we're gonna be butt naked and hungry in this house because I'm like, those things do not interest me. Those are not things that I feel require the brunt of my attention. I mean I do them on occasion, but my partner has also been like stop. My partner has been like, you've got to do X, Y and Z. You are running a business, and as a person running a business, you need more time to run that business. Me take care of you. And those words we're just so real because when we got back together, I did not have a business, but now that I do, I'm just like, okay, man, you gotta love it. And it it is that I mean, that is the goal for relationships, right, is that you are able to show up as who you are. And so many of us will still deny it. You know, we'll still we'll still we're the ones to turn it off and make it not a thing because we will show up as less than who we are, and we gotta do better than that because we don't allow them to learn how to show up for us in all of our strength and in all of our vulnerability. Amen. So we see that throughout the night. Um, and we've already kind of alluded to this. Throughout the night, Gondola is texting or calling Lawrence to see if they can and meet up later, giving me hard palpitations and single time right, and it's like, what is she going to say? Like what? And I'm like, it's being sneaky because that does not speak to his growth. Being sneaky how Like, like there's more going on between him and Condola than he was letting on. That's what I'm like, what's going on here? How you had better? This had better not be you treating Issa the same way that you treated that one, you know, the one check from like a couple like a season or so ago, where he's acting like boyfriend material but really he a fun boy And I'm just like, come on now, don't don't don't do that been somebody get that impression. Yeah, I felt like this was kind of out of the ordinary, like maybe he and Candola had been kind of talking about that maybe she was calling more that night for some reason, which led me to believe, like I have seen other people kind of speculate, is she expecting out not? Did you think that? I fully felt like when somebody said I was after the second call, I thought, Wow, this is kind of like persistent, right, like like just really have something to site, Like what's happening that they need to talk tonight? So I don't know, we will see, we will see. So we kind of wrap up the episode. We see they share an uber on the way back to both of their homes, and there's right right exactly, and you know, so there's this teasing and then he tells the uber driver or the lift driver, UM, like, okay, wait for her for five minutes. I just want to kind of show her my place, right right. So I already knew where we were headed at that point, right, So that's like, well, if you're in the house right right, she goes in, she takes a little bit of a tour, and then see what happens. Does Condola call or just before she goes to the bathroom or after she went to the bathroom, and he I think he stepped outside because I think maybe he maybe his text again or called again, and then he stepped outside to call her back. And I can say this, I really appreciate that he didn't just ignore her all night long. He did respond back. I think that some people be acting like they're too busy to send somebody a text message back. I'm just like, well, what is your level of investment with that person? What is the what is the level of important in your life? If you just refuse to give them any level of communication back. I actually appreciated that because if she is indeed pregnant or something else is going on on her, and at the very least knowing that somebody is saying, all right, I'm about to get back with you, let me let me I'll hit you up soon. These things, I'm like, yes, they helped him reduce another person's anxiety. So I was appreciative of that, even though that's not how it went there. Right then, he was considerate of her feelings. So we see that Lisa does see him step out, like she overhears like some of the conversation, and she infers that he and Condole are supposed to be meeting up later that night, and so she is kind of on her way to go out and then says, well, what if I want to stay? And I was like, oh, hey, girl, don't say what you want? And this to means that piece of her throwing herself in and like, yes, I'm here, like I'm a jump on with both feet. This is what I want. If this is something that you are also wanting, I want to make sure that I am clear that this is what I want and that yeah, so I can see that, Like I feel like there was a part of me that was also like good for her for being assertive and like even if he doesn't say yes, like she stated what she wanted right, um, but there was also a piece of me that felt like what what happened here? Right? Like? Because it feels like there was a little bit of a competitiveness may and that that may not be the right word, but I can't think of anything else, right Like that she knows that he and Condola are planning on meeting up and so she's now like you know, like throwing her hat in the ring. Also and you know what, I didn't get the competitiveness, but just oh if I don't tell you how I feel, I will I will be the one wondering what I will be the one not having done my part. I'm not about to step aside and let this woman because remember she said it before, like I feel like I built this man. She she's gonna reach the benefits of the work that I put in, And so I appreciate it being able to say clearly, like this is actually what I want. If this is something that you're wanting, now is the moment to tell me, yes, okay, that's what I like that reframe. I like that reframe because I wasn't like, don't be hitting no, Dwayne, that somebody's win, right, Don't don't be waiting five years later to come forward. I'm talking about somewhere, are you right? It's like no, no, no, no no. When I having no different world moments, you're not growing red weddings. Saying the day before, said a week before, said a month before, preferably said, while somebody is maybe not with somebody else right where, they are at least available, that's like, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. So we see that they have all the good sex and she spends the night and we see them wake up the next morning. They had a great time. Um, I mean while waiting, I was were like, where the clothes come from? Right? I had to So it wasn't until the third watch, because I have now watched it three times. Um, it wasn't anti the third watch that I realized she had bought the shirt at the art walk. Oh yes, yes, Like like, oh so you're playing this yeah, like it is this Condola shirt? Like who shirts this a girl? I'm like, okay, thank you? Right, yeah, So on third watch I recognized that she had the bag leaving the art walk, so she actually bought the sweatshirt. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense because wait, wait, wait now they wake up, right they wake up and he's like, oh, do you want me to bring you home or call a lift? I don't remember what he said. I mean she's like, no, I walk, I walk. I was that's not look like anybody's short walk right around the corner. That was not right around the corner by any means. No, But I think it was symbolic. And I also saw that Natasha did an interview about it. Right, because we often will hear that morning after walk as a walk of shame, so to speak, But this was not a walk of shame, like she was dro right, And I think it's also interesting that, of course, in the opening scene we saw her fall on her face in these heels that she could barely walk in, and now she's like shrutting down the streets of l A and these heels feeling you know, it seems like really good about herself herself. I was like, oh, so don't be happy, And I really do like that it was reframed away from a walk of shame, especially because black women are often talked to be ashamed of their sexuality. We don't need anymore rhetoric that sort of confirms that. So being able to see it like there's joy, there's peace, a walk of reflection, because she looked like you're still, you know, thinking things through, not not like pensively, but not in a in her head it's a typical way. Yeah yeah, but in a way of like, yes i am, I'm I'm good with how things went, and if you know, based on the preview for next week, I'm looking like in a way that says okay, I'm ready to confront more things. Mm hmmmmmmm. Yes, So now we can get into our predictions. So, so what do you think this means? So you already kind of share that you are hopeful that this is like a closure of a situation, not necessarily that they're getting back together. I'm hoping that this is a full close of this chapter, and that that means that from here on in, when they are in space together, it's not them to be awkward or anything like that. But I'm not I'm not hoping for a reunion of Pisa and Lawrence. I'm actually hoping for quite the opposite. I'm hoping for something that offers them both clarity about everything, the sort of the sort of closure that people say that they're looking for. I'm hoping that they actually got that, that they're able now to be in a space like if they were to get together. And I'm not a hundred opposed. I just don't want it to be another situation where they fall in love, because fall in love of course talks like you have no choice, always have a choice. I want them to grow in love and be intentional in love, not be falling in it. Yeah, she fell on her face, the way to bring that full circle? Way to bring that full circle? Yeah, I I agree with you, Like I don't actually think that this is the beginning of them getting back together, and like you, I'm not opposed to them. And this was shot so beautifully and written so beautifully that it makes me feel like, oh, they're so cute together. Like I liked them together right when I had before they got Joe. I was just like, oh, I like that, but thank you all real. I really liked her with Nathan and even you know, before he goes in and everything like that, and I feel like he he was and I guess maybe in that moment specifically something that she needed at that level of I got you encouraging do the thing that you want to do. Yes, because I mean, honestly, let's let's be real, that should have been Molly even at that point. It should have been right and it was not good point, but it was this guy and he got to see the fruits of her labor and that I mean, we know they have laughs, we know that they communicate. Well, I actually would prefer that, but I mean I also know that people be like, don't be going to that no excess. So I think there's a new person in the in the picture. I don't sound see nobody yet, but right I don't bring them on. I'm ready. Yeah, Well, we'll be open to it. Yeah, But I also think what a lot of us like. I saw a lot of people say that they felt like this was their favorite episode like of the series, and I think, you know, it was so peaceful, and I think, given like again that the world is on fire right now, I think that it felt very It felt very calm. It felt really nice to see people like laugh together and tease one another and be in that way that we are. Yeah, SOMEBCEE black love, But I think it also highlights how you can be familiar and comfortable with someone and that's still not necessarily means you need to be in a relationship with them. How sometimes we confuse it. How sometimes we confuse that right, because they of course have jokes because they have known each other for years, for years, Yeah, but they are familiar with each other. Of course they have inside jokes, you know that space. So we got love for each other. But just because you have loved us and you have to be together. Yeah. So I actually think what's gonna happen is that he is probably going to get offered a job in San Francisco, but it's going to find out that Condola is expecting and then we'll be forced to kind of make a choice maybe about whether he moves or whether he stays. That's what I know. I know, I don't know. I just I had that feeling. And so then when I saw people online saying they thought that she was pregnant to I was like, oh my gosh, it's not just me. So just right dreaming a fish, somebody mama is dreaming a fish and we think it means Condola. I don't know. I don't know. We might be completely left field, left out of field with that, but we will see. And so, like you said in the preview, we see that next she has called Molly. It seems to have this kind of conversation about like how do we maybe regroup? Yea, And I'm looking forward to that. I had been read, so I have to be honest, I am feeling a kind of way that she made the call. Did it? Oh? Absolutely did. I definitely feel a way about that as well, because it speaks to patterns in their relationship and it's almost like nothing changed then because I have to reach out to you. Yes, I agree, I agree. It to me speaks to it makes me wonder what kind of energy Molly is gonna be coming in with and if it's gonna be that I wasn't wrong, you was wrong energy, and the sort of sitting there the same way that she was sitting there in that restaurant when you know, when he pulled up and was like nah and left. Molly to me was so mean in that moment, like when she was talking about it to Andrew and was like she running from me, like she running from a real job. That let me know exactly what you think of her. And you know, even in this preview, we see like she's like even still with Andrew having conversations about like not really wanting to have this conversation, like I don't remember exactly what she used, but it seems like she still of course feels away. Yeah, yeah, we will have to see what's gonna happen with them. So I think what we only have two more episodes, is that it? Right? So yeah, yeah, I know, so sad, and I'm just like, I don't know if this is enough time to resolve. I don't know, I don't know. We only got to one episode, so and you know, of course it's not gonna completely resolved because of course they've already been picked up for season five, right, um, so we will have at least one more season to kind of figure out what is happening with everybody. Yeah, and I'm hoping that at some point, I mean, you know, I'm I'm still just speculating. I'm really just hoping that Molly puts away some of the other stuff and maybe it's able to see how she was wrong and it's able to offer a genuine apology and some level restitution for what happened. Well, we saw when she was on a vacation with Andrew that she called to her therapist, So hopefully we will see even in this next episode there could be a conversation with her therapist or maybe her reflecting on what she talked about in therapy. That would be great because I'm like, I know one thing that us therapists do well, we help people see themselves, right, We will ask you a ton of questions. Oh yeah, and so of my clients, you know, they'd be like big mad, little mad. They'd be like, so, I mean you're gonna snatch my whole wee not gonna leave me, no edges. I'm like, you didn't even need the match, Well, you don't need all grow back. You're fine, and I'm gonna grow back in a whole new, healthier, wealthy right nicely. You don't want that other stuff gets snatched, get snatched. So I'm hoping that, like, even if it does turn out that, you know, he is the one that calls Molly and maybe the conversation doesn't go as expected or desire um, that maybe the next thing is Molly going to her therapist and having a conversation and get her weig snatched just a little bit, and then maybe she will then be the one to reach back out to Issa and to apologize and to actually mean it, because she would have done some reflection of herself where she's being challenged. Because I'm gonna be real, I'm a little disappointed with Andrew. How I'm looking like he do gentle challenging and that's all great and good, but I'm just like, where is the real challenging here? So you feel like he there needs to be like a more intense maybe conversation in terms of challenging her. Yeah, because I'm just like, yeah, I appreciate that he's a lovely and wonderful and almost perfect guy, but he also seems a little bit passive. Yeah. So, I mean, so we did not talk about the episode last week where she went on vacation. We didn't do a recap after that one, but there was this whole blow up with the family, right, and so it could be that maybe we will see some of the aftermath of that, because I did not expect that to resolve as like easily as it did, given like the back and forth she had with his brother. What I was like, what's up? I was like, now, don't get me wrong, brother was there. He was super wrong wrong. Yeah, But I'm like, at the same time, I'm just like, um, Andrew, you still sort of left her out here by herself when they were having the argument. You. But at the same time, I'm just like, there's no level of nothing coming from you, like what's up. I'm just like, I feel like it just gives like these small little nuggets of revelations for her. And I'm just like, so you don't have, like I played a revelation you on Nuet. Well, I mean, it could be there. He knows that she can only take nuggets. At this point, we don't know so so much. You had to be seen right so much in two episodes we got to answer all of these questions. Yes, I'm just I'm excited and I'm looking forward. I am you know, I'm in happy anticipation. I'm not my sumthing, not enough like it was when they had that blow up. I was just like, yeah, you're right, We're just we're just hoping. I feel like I'm met at the exhale. I'm just waiting to exhale. We just want to see how and if they are going to try to resolve this friendship. I really, I really do hope that they're able to do so, and even if they're not able to do so all in the you know, in the space of the rest of this season, I think that that is also true for how we move so like the same way that it took Lawrence and all this time to be able to hash it out and put the stuff and lay it there the way that they need in this episode, maybe that ends up being part of the Molly Issa work as well that it is ongoing work. I would love to see the both of them in therapy together because I think that they both have some things that um I think they both have some legit grievances that they should be able to air out and all honesty and be heard. Agreed, agreed. Yeah, and so we saw that she was able to do that with Lawrence many years later, and so it could be the same kind of thing with her and Molly then, because that is the kind of conversation they also need to have absolutely happened here, you know, me to season Yeah, yeah, that really needs to be an autopsy in this relationship to kind of see what has happened here. So we mean, you always gotta go too far. You's got to go too far. Love, Well, thank you so much for joining us again this week. You will likely be back, well, we know for sure you're gonna be back in two weeks that you might be back next week, depending on what happens in this Sunday's episode. We'll see it's not gonna blow up this episode, good vibes, likely slightly. We will be chatting with you again in two weeks to do a finally recap, to to chat about everything you see in the final Alright, I'm excited update you. I'm so glad Dr oriole Will was able to join us again this week. Don't forget to check out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Slash session for links to our previous two conversations are to grab your copy of her book, Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease, and please share your takeaways and predictions with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session. Don't forget to share this episode with the other Insecure fans in your life. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow College Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com sash y c C. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care

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The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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