The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
For this conversation I was joined by Dr. Shanita Brown. Dr. Brown and I chatted about how you can recognize the signs of domestic violence, why it’s important to understand domestic violence in the context of power and control as opposed to anger management, how you can support a loved one who may be in a relationship with an abusive partner, and she shared tons of incredible resources for anyone who would like additional help.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and I thought it was important for us to revisit this topic as Black women continue to be disproportionately impacted by domestic violence. For this conversation, I was joined by Dr Shanita Brown. Dr Brown is a licensed professional counselor, speaker, educator, and trainer that foster's transformative and empowering dialogue about instrument partner violence and mental health wellness. With over ten years of experience in the clinical mental health field, she is a servant leader dedicated to breaking the silence and empowering changed to foster the next generation of advocates and leaders. Dr Brown and I chatted about how you can recognize the signs of domestic violence, why it's important to understand domestic violence in the context of power and control as opposed to anger management, how you can support loved one who may be in a relationship with an abusive partner, and she shared tons of incredible resources for anyone who would like additional help. If you hear something that resonates with you while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Brown, Thank you so much for having me not the drawings. Definitely an honor and privilege to be here with you. Yeah, I'm really happy you were able to join us because I think we really need to, you know, continue having this conversation around domestic violence. And I think what happens a lot of times is that people aren't even always aware in their own relationships that there may be a presence of domestic violence. So can you tell us how somebody might even be able to recognize this. Yes, that's a great question. So what really defines this abusive relationships and tactics? It's really it's a common thread of power and control. So it's this intentional pattern of behavior used by an abuser when one partner tries to maintain how we control or another partner. Right, And so that looks like someone who may be extremely jealous, right, who a partner may be trying to check the cell phone, the social media or email, or insisting that a partner texts when they arrive or when they leave for work every day, or when you may hear um. So when saying I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around their partner, isolation from your family and your friends, always feeling like they're afraid UM, or appearing to be afraid UM, when they feel like they can't go to work, they can't go to school, they can't go to social events because they're afraid that it may upset their partner. These are really controlling tactics, and these are red flags of domestic violence. And I think it's really important that you gave us such a variety of ways to recognize this, right because I think sometimes people just think it's physical, right, so the person is hitting them when really, obviously, abuse can be all of these things that you've named plus more. I'm sure right. So this domestic violence, and sometimes you may hear intimate partner violence, and so really, and it can happen to anyone, joy, it can happen to all cultures on backgrounds. People are married, people are unmarried, heterosexual, people in the LGBT community, wealthy, the poor, religious, not religious, all ethnicities. But the key takeaway here, like you're saying, it's this power and control, and it's physical violence, emotional violence, and and that emotional excuse me, emotional abuse is one where they're solid wounds, right, you can't see the emotional scars, and that caused us is just as much damage as physical abuse, or sometimes more because that is lingering um that legal effects of the emotional abuse. So can you go in a little more depth about the emotional abuse of what that might look like. The emotional abuse is that when people may say that I feel worn name calling, they begin to think that what they are hearing, they begin to think that that's part of who they are. It leads to mental health challenges, It leads to anxiety. This irrational thought, patent at least a depression. It leads to maladaptive for unhealthy coping strategies such as trying to substant abuse, things of that nature. So that emotional abuse and emotional rules is really damaging, and I find that it's much more damaging than physical abuse m M. And I'm guessing it would also be probably a little harder to recognize. It is are hard to recognize because when you have a conversation, you can't see that rules. So if you're with someone, you may be sitting to someone or maybe working, or have a family member who is enduring domestic violence, you can't see that physical scar. But it's that name calling that's to belittle it, you know, putting somebody down that they are enduring every day and it could be for years that you really endure emotional abuse. And it isn't what people say, the physical abuse, at that emotional abuse that they are dealing with every day that is damaging just one psyche. So Dr Brown, you also mentioned because I think something that also happens is that people aren't quite sure whether a behavior is their partner like really caring about them and their concern or is it abuse? So you mentioned like having to text when you leave or when you get back from work in the evening, and so I can see some people saying like, oh, that is just my partner caring about me. So how would you know whether something like that isn't a sign of abuse or whether it's just your partner being concerned. This is a great question because you want to think of what's healthy and what is unhealthy. Right, So again we have to examine what is that threat, that pattern of abusive and power and control behavior, that intention of pattern. You have to tell me who you're talking to, or if I didn't text you, why you didn't text me? Or hey, it's it's one thing to say text me when you get to work because I care about your a bit, right, But there's a difference of saying somebody that's very controlling you need to text me every day or this is gonna happen, or you need to text me the day because I'm very concerned, or this may not happen. So there's that power. Is that abusive intentional pattern of behavior that's the difference between text and every day or just check it. So you're really looking at, like you said, the pattern and the pattern. If this is the only thing that's happening, then it could just be like a cause for concern. But if this is something that's present with the name calling and maybe some physical abuse, then you can more clearly see the picture absolutely putting someone down because they hit in text or you know, making someone feel bad about themselves or you know, well you're crazy because you didn't do this, or you didn't text me, or things are that you know. So it's this pattern, right, You're gonna find that pattern. And a lot of times people can't see the pattern, and you have to put it out. You have to ask the question, what are you seeing? All right? And then when you ask the question, what are your experienced it? What's happening in your relationship? And then people begin to say, wow, I never thought that this was a form of domestic violence. So Dr Brown, hasn't been your experience that people will maybe come into counseling with you to maybe figure out like how they can work on the relationship with their partner, and then you're able to kind of show them this pattern. Yes, so I find quite often when I am working with clients and my initial intake and doing a very thorough assessment, you know what's happening in your relationship. You begin to ask the questions, what are you experiencing? Do you feel safe? Sometimes they don't feel safe, and then we asked what are your experience and then you have what I find very helpful is showing people the power and control will, which was developed by the Dloof model, which helps with people looking out that at the core of the will is power in control, right, and so you have coercion, you have threats, you have intimidation, you have economic abuse, and when people begin to look at the power control, it resonates with them. Let me say, wow, I am experiencing them, and ask the question what are you experiencing that you see on that will? Oh yeah, they do put me down, or they do control what I do, or they control what I wear, or they limit my outside involvement, or they're very jealous. So I do feel like I'm walking to eggshells. And then it clicks that light bulb goes off for them and say, wow, I never know this was domestic violence. All this time, I just thought they loved me or they were trying to show me that they were concerned, and I never thought that this was domestic violence. It is very hard, so you have to have tools to help people see that what you're describing isn't healthy. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I would imagine that there would be even more difficult for someone who maybe has come from a home where they've seen this with their parents or you know, with their loved ones growing up, and they don't necessarily know that all relationships don't function in this way. Absolutely, the first relationship, with first image of relationship starts at home, so that sets up the relation of template for people, and so they begin to think this is normal, this is all I've ever known, this is what I've seen, as you mentioned, not the joy. But when they come in saying I want some help, I want to feel safe, I'm not really sure. I don't really want to in a relationship. But maybe let's talk about this anger management and you begin to educate them and they really understand that this is not an anger management issue, that this is an overall pattern of abusive and volid behavior. Then they begin to really rethink what they're in and sometimes they're not ready to leave immediately, and that's okay. Yeah, can you talk a little bit more about the distinction between this not being an anger management issue in the domestic violence. So you know, I want people to really understand that that abuse is not an anger management issue. Right. So people who are experiencing an anger management issue, they're gonna go off from their boss, they're gonna go off on their cousin and their friend or cowork or random person. But abuse is carefully targeted at one person, right. So again, it's that overall pattern of abusive and invalid behavior and that is not an anger management issue. That's the difference. They're controlling behaviors that are really the biggest red flags that you look out for in relationships. That is such an important distinction, Dr Brown, because it also makes me think about how often you will hear people who have stories of being abused by their partners, but then everybody else in their life is like, what are you talking about? How they're so nice, they're so charming, they're so x y Z. Right, But it really goes to this crafting of a character where nobody else can kind of see what's going on inside the home. Absolutely, and again, so it's that's why domest of violence is not an anger management issue, right, It's this control, this pattern of behavior, and you begin to talk to someone you'd be able to recognize in here they can tell you, well, it happened during this time, it happened again, it happened this time, it happened this time. Where they always put me down, or they make me feel guilty, or sometimes they make me feel good about my children, or you know, they say that the abuse didn't happen, or they say that sometimes I call something to to make the abuse happen, and that's never the case. But it's that pattern of behavior, very that pattern of control invavior. Mm hmmm. So a lot of what you're talking about is gas lighting, right, So something that has kind of gotten more talk in I think recent months. Um, it's coming up in where conversations. Can you talk a little bit more about what gas lighting is and what that looks like in the relationship. Yes, for gas lighting is when you know in a partner would make the other partner the thing that they're crazy, that it really didn't happen, that there's something that they're the cause of it, and maybe minimizing what's happening, and that is really the form that power of control, right, that pattern begin to think that maybe maybe this didn't really happen. No, I didn't really hear that, and they begin to think, well, at the while that you know, this really isn't abuse, or I am crazy, Well there something wrong with me, or I'm making it up, and really there's nothing really wrong with them. But that's the manipulate behavior, right of gas light, and what happens in that situation when one partner begins to think that, hey, I am somehow contributing to this, or I am crazy, or you know, something is really wrong here, or nothing's really wrong with me. Yeah, and I want to hear if you can dock around a little bit more about like the pattern or the course that this takes, because it usually does not start off so obvious, right, So an abuser would necessarily start off by saying you can't go to your mom's on the weekends or whatever. It usually starts much smaller and then progressive. Can you talk a little bit about what that progression looks like. Yes, So, during the research of domestic violence, and you have heard the term of you make her the cycle of abuse or a cycle of violence, and recent research has changed that there really isn't a cycle of violence. There really isn't in one right, because no one gets into a relationship to really say that they're in this cycle that somehow contributing to it. But what happened? You may see that an abusing may be nice at one point, but you may say, like the honeymoon phase, and then it begins to escalate, and then you may see a little bit more. Just call it this guy's gas light in or this form of psychological manipulation and then maybe tagving it having some sort of planting this doubt and the victim of suvivor's mind of what they are experiencing maybe then begin to question their perception of the relationship. Um, then it begins to add a little bit more fuel to it, and then it becomes very explosive, and then it repeats itself. So on one hand, it is a cycle. On one hand it isn't because it's mainly this pattern of abusive behavior, if that makes sense, Dot joy, So what is the cycle piece? That is not quite accurate the actual term of the cycle of violence? Okay? Got you? So so the pattern is pretty consistent, but calling it a cycle isn't the most consistent anymore? Got you? Okay? Okay? And so are there any warning signs or things that you should be looking out for kind of in the beginning phases of a relationship that may kind of tip you off that this person may be abusive. A partner who is extremely jealous, um, the isolation, putting you down, I would say, making a partner feel bad about themselves. Some of the name call it intimidation, destroying property somehow saying that, well, I wouldn't have done this if you would have just listened to me. Mm hmmm um. That difficulty taking accountability for any of their acts. Absolutely, it's so important for people to understand that that abuse is never your fault, right, it is never anything that you have done. You know, it is important for the perpetrator or the abuser. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably. They're held accountable for the actions, and a lot of times that doesn't happen, and then we end up what we call a lot of victim blaming. What do you do? What were you wear it? Or And it's never the case. And we have to really change that too, placing the accountability on where it belongs. And that still a beansy and I want to hear your thoughts like a bround about why you think we jump to the victim blaming so often, Like, why is it so hard for us to believe that people could be being abused? I think me personally, I think because overall in society, we have this culture mindset where men are in control and they're the dominant um gender and women don't have a voice, and so I think women aren't believe and so we're always finding ways to look at what are women doing or what have partners doing in the relationship, and I look at a way to trying to change that story. So it's important to look at what we're saying first. What is our response, like, really start when you hear about the situation, how do I respond in a way that is not victim blame it? You know that you know if itsal can never do anything to call someone to hit someone. It's important to look at how do we hold each other accountable, and how we hold that perpetrated accountab before their behavior. M And I think it's deeply rooted in our society. I really think it is. Yeah, so you already alluded to this a little bit, Dr Brown, But another complicated part of this is, you know, someone does realize that they are in inter abusive relationship, and then maybe it's trying to figure out whether they're going to stay in this relationship or not. And a lot of times on the outside looking in right again, people are quick to say or why don't they just leave? Why don't they just get out? But of course this is a very complicated, complex kind of a decision. So can you talk with us a little bit about what that decision making process might look like? Um, dor joy, this is a very good question, and thank you so much because we are so quick to judge people. I wouldn't have done that. I can't believe there is still in that I would have been gone right. But with domestic violence is so complex. There's so many reasons why a victims stay, and maybe children involved for economic reasons, they're actually afraid. I mean, there's a lot of fear here, and and then if they think about leaving, that risk of their lives become more at risk, um for death. So we're thinking about financial support, children, party reasons, being the breadwinner, having nowhere to go. Um. Actually, love is the reason why some people may stay. They think this is actually loved, so it is not something so quick where we can pull them out Hey girl, Hey god, let's come on and get out this relationship. It is very risky, it is very deadly when we're talking about leaving an abusive relationship. So that has to be thought out, It has to be planned, and it has to be um take. All things have to be considered when we're talking about leaving an abusive relationship. It is not easy. Is the research still consistent in talking about how dangerous it is? Like that is the most dangerous time when the most dangerous partner decides to leave, and it takes seven attempts. Say that takes seven attempts to try and leave before they have successfully left that relationship seven attempts. Want people to know it is not an easy situation, and so I applaud people with they are trying to leave the situation or trying to take those steps. And you have to connect with people and connect with community resources who are trained to do this work and safety planet. Mm hmmmm, So can you talk about that a little bit like, Okay, let's say I have made this decision to try to get out of this relationship. What kinds of things or resources do I need to connect with to try to figure out what my plane is going to be. Yeah, So it's one talking to UM and domestic violence agency or people who are trained in safety planning. I'm talking to a trusted family member who will provide support and not additional victim blaming. Are UM talking to faith based communities that will offer support versus trying to tell you the state in that relationship. Right, So you want to connect with people who will understand what you are going through and can help you safety plan right if you have children, collecting documents such as your birth certificates, so security cars, have a money in a separate account. Um. So all these takes time, having a night bad pack for your children, impact for yourself, and having a plan in place when you're getting ready to leave that situation. Yeah, definitely connected with the domestic ALLUS agency, Yeah, to help with safety planning. And most UM counties have this, correct, Like we'll have some kind of agency that is designed to help with this type of effort. Absolutely every state has a coalition for the best of allance and sexual arities and then connecting you with that agency. Yeah, for safety Planet, that would be the first place I was in and working with it to the survivor connect to them I'm doing the work as well, but also connecting them. We work in collaborative. Collaborative is a collaborative effort and safety planet, and it may take several sessions and may not get done in that one and their succession is gonna take several until that person to say I'm ready mm hmm, right, having them empowering them to make the decision. And how can friends and family be supportive at this point? Right? This is another great question too, because oftentimes I hear people say, my family don't get me on my pastor told me to stay. And so one we have to always be aware of the complexity of domestic violence that it is not easy for a person to leave. We want to always be concerned about their will being about the safety. So I would tell people, if you're concerned, say hey, I'm concerned about your will being instead of trying to say you need to leave. Right. And so, if you're telling them you need to leave, you're doing the same thing that an abuser is doing. You're telling them you're control of them, but walk with them. I am here to support you. I may not know what this is like, but your your well being is a concern for me. I love you, I care about you. Here is the hotline. I am here to walk with you when you already those that's very supportive to helping someone in that situation, getting them flyers or brochures, connect them to the eight hundred hotline or to a shelter, to an agency. But never go in or lead in with trying to tell somebody what to do in that situation, because you become part of what they're already dealing with is a controlling situation. Yeah, and I have you know, heard people talk about like it is just really important for you to be there and to let them know, you know, if you ever decided to leave, I got you right like so so that you that even maybe family and friends can become a part of the safety planning if there is a goal time right and just be there to listen, Just to be there to listen and be available. I'm here, non judgment or environment, create a safe space. Yeah. So, Dr Brown, can you talk about what UM therapy might look like for somebody maybe who is either deciding whether they're going to leave the relationship or maybe somebody who has left the relationship, Like what kinds of things might you be working with them on in therapy. It just depends on how they show up in in that session, and it shows up what what what stage they are, And they could be that I'm thinking about leaving or I didn't know I'm dealing with this and now I've learned the term. So a lot of times again it goes back to educating education on what domestic violence is right and then provided them with the tools such as the power and control will helping them to identify that things that they have been experiencing. It resonates with them and then it may talk about, you know, and they may be dealing with anxiety, they may be dealing with depression, and may talk about, so, how have you been coping with this domestic violence? You may begin to hear things such as when I begin to drink more or I'm doing some other things that are not so helpful. So it just depends on how they show up um in the session and when they're ready to leave the relationship. But when they are ready, we begin to talk about safety planet and that is several sessions in regards to taking that step to safetyple at it. And I think that's important to pay attention to as well, because I think some people may be worried that if they go to a therapist and they are in a domestic violence situation, that the the whole therapy will be focused on getting you to leave the relationship. That is not the case, at least it should not be the case. It should not be what it depends Okay, not the joy. It depends, right, So let's let's let's let's let's let's pause. It depends. So if if someone isn't an active I would saying, if they're in a situation that we should always be concerned about the safety and well being. Right. So if someone say I'm afraid, right, or it's happened to my children, then it begins to you know, work with them, or should we have the report right or reporting issue, thinking about the will being of the children or walking them through. So it just depends. Also leaking that person to a shelter. I have plenty of times I've said, let's talk about ways to talk about your safety, right, and sometimes they would say, I'm gonna go to the shelter, and the shelter will work with them. But it's always thinking about the safety first of that particular client when they're presented right, of course, actually they said. And so sometimes it's helpful to talk about relational patterns, right, the upbringing and what did you see a lot of times, you know, I've spent working six months with people just thinking about looking at relationship relationship patterns, and then they get to the point, okay, what do you want for yourself? You know, and making no uh, I may have seen this, um, maybe this is all that I have known, but I'm ready to change that narrative. I want better and understand that they're not to blame for that. So it's it's just a process, you know, it just it's just a process. So it just takes one day at a time, one session at a time. And so when people are ready to leave, you know, we are empowering them. We are given them the tools to do that and make that decision, empowering them. M hm. And I'm curious also kind of going back to your comments about the emotional abuse, right, because I would imagine that that would be some significant work probably in therapy, when people have been made to believe or not even trust their own thoughts, you know, because there has been gas lighting or you know, really taking a hit on their self worth so what kind of work might you be able to do with them in therapy to to really target some of those concerns. Yes, and so I have utilized a variety of blends of um kind of behavior therapy, really helping with the thought patterns, irrational thinking. And also I have used some relational culture theory. Right, we're just really helping them with understanding growth, falster and relationships and understanding how, especially for African American women, our systems of oppression have contributed to multiple experiences of oppression and discrimination, of racism, how they're more at risk for experience and domestic violence. For example, if you're gonna say we're gonna refer them to an agency, it's a possibility that they may get discriminated against because of intersecting idemities. And these are real things that we have to understand why Black women as such at risk for domestic violence when it comes to systemic oppression and racism and the complexity of it and how domestic violence shows up for them compared to a white woman. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I know in working even just with students, you know, there is sometimes a hesitation, like if there's going to be a report made or you know that you have to look at that too, because it feels like a betrayal almost of the community, like, oh, I'm gonna put this person in jail or something even that becomes a bigger priority than their own concern and welfare. Right, And that goes back to the result again of historical oppression the present day racism, and how African American women may be less likely to report or seek kill a warance of discrimination, in the negative stereotype of how African American men um have been treated, dealing with police brutality. These are all factors and that can discourage a woman from seeking help for the mess of allance, and then that contributes to the high rate of the mess of allance. Right, They're not going to report. I don't want that to happen. I don't want to be another I don't want to contribute to how black men are treated because of what I have been doing. Right, so they somehow take that responsibility on they don't report. M Yeah, So what are some of your favorite resources related to this topic? Dr? Brown? For anybody who needs to read more about this or is interested in learning more about this. One of my favorite resources the book I help again goes back to the education piece is a book called Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bangkoft and I have found that book very enlightenment, but also on my clients and people that I served, have found that, oh my god, this book has really enlightened me. Has really opened up my eyes to what I am experiencing. And there's a name for it now, right, I didn't know this, but we have to understand the shame and the stigma attached to domestic violence, the same as we have with mental illness, and so there's a lot of shame and attached to it. So but when they begin to read the book, or when we have the power and control, will and say, hey, now I feel educated, Now, I feel empowered. Now I can begin to proceed with taking my voice back. But a lot of times it's about education, it's about reading, it's about helping you understand what you have endured. Right, So that's one of my very first books that I go to. And then one of my favorite podcasts, I would say, is A Date with Darkness by Dr Natalie jones Um and she is a licensed therapist. And then you know who specialized in working with people trying to hear from relational abuse and her work with narcissists and narcissistic behavior. And I find that as a good tool for people to really get education on tips and how to heal and develop healthy relationships. You know, we are all relational beings and we all desire relational contact and connections, but I think it's important to learn about patents and learn how to have a healthy relationship. Perfect. Any other resources or websites that you want to share. Yes, A website that I go to is a National Center of Violence against Women in the Black Community also known as u JIMA, and I find that very helpful because they have a strong voice on looking at and being um taking a stand on violence against women in the Black community. And also I would say a Call to Men, which is an international Violence against Women eventual organization that really promotes healthy manhood and and then violence against women and girls. So these are two resources. And if about a wealth of information for on the African American community. Yeah, perfect, And where can we find you online? What's your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share? Yes, my website is www dot Dr Shenita Brown dot com. And you can find me on Twitter. Dr She need to Brown, Facebook and Instagram as well and adopted a Brown perfect and of course we will include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Brown, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Dr Joy for having me. It's been a pleasure. I'm so glad Dr Brown was able to share her expertise with us today. To find out more information about her and her practice and the resources that she shared, check out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one, and please don't forget to share this episode with two people in your circle, as you never know who needs to hear the information, and be sure to share your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your stories using the hashtag tb G in session. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C and don't forget to check out our online store where you can grab a copy of our guided affirmation track, break up Journal, or your favorite Therapy for Black Girls T shirts, sweatshirts or mugs. Grab your goodies at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care um what witch